In this episode of the science‑spirituality series, host Jennifer K. Hill invites Deepak Chopra and Don Hoffman to discuss the nature of consciousness. Deepak begins by outlining the Vedantic tradition and related Indian philosophies (Kashmir Shaivism, Tantra) that endorse a consciousness‑only monism. He emphasizes that consciousness is the fundamental ground in which all experience occurs, is known, and is made. According to him, experiences such as seeing a book, feeling a hand, or hearing a sound do not happen in the brain; the brain only provides neural correlates, which themselves are experienced within consciousness. He stresses that dualistic perception (mind‑matter) is an experiential illusion, not ultimate reality. The segment sets up a contrast between this spiritual perspective and the forthcoming scientific view from Don Hoffman.
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Welcome back for another conversation at the intersection of science and spirituality with Deepak Chopra and Don Hoffman. As you may have joined us before for some of our earlier episodes, we've been exploring the meaning of consciousness, drawing from some of Deepak's 91+ books that he's written, as well as Don's book, The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes. Deepak, I thought today perhaps that you could start us off by explaining to us the Vedantic perspective on what pure consciousness means, and then perhaps we can have Don explain it from a more scientific perspective.
Okay, so that's a good question, Jen. Let me start by sharing with you. there are 3 traditions that are very closely related in the Eastern wisdom traditions, particularly the ones that come from India. So the first is Vedanta, which is, I would say, consciousness-only monism. It holds that only consciousness exists and everything else is actually an appearance in consciousness that is also consciousness, but it looks different because consciousness by itself has no form. So that's in Vedanta, but it's also in a whole discipline called Kashmir Shaivism, which goes back about 1,000 years. And that, uh, the exponent of that was somebody called Abhinavagupta, who influenced, um, the export of non-dual thinking into Nepal, and that became the Nepalese version of Buddhism as well. So if you go deep into the literature of Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Tantra, you see all these philosophies which are consciousness-only monism, matter-only monism, and then dualism— mind and matter, 2 different things. Now, even though Vedanta talks about dualism, it says that dualism is an experience, but it's not the reality. So let me explain how that works in, in these traditions. The consciousness is the ground of all experience. I'll repeat that very carefully. Consciousness is the ground of all experience. So consciousness is that in which all experience occurs, all experience is known, but also out of which all experience is made. That third part is very important. So consciousness is in which all experience occurs. The experience of this book is happening in consciousness. The experience of this hand is happening in consciousness. Where else could it be happening? It's not happening in the brain because there's no experience in the brain. There are no colors in the brain. There are no forms in the brain. There are no shapes in the brain. There is no sound in the brain. Nothing that we can call experience can actually be seen or even experienced in the brain. What you find in the brain are what are called neural correlates of experience. But even those are an experience. Somebody has to experience the neural correlates of experience to call them neural correlates. So even the brain is an experience in consciousness. So once again, consciousness is that in which all experience occurs, all experience is known, out of which all experience is made. So you say, well, how is the experience of this iPhone or is this book or this hand made out of consciousness? Well, the only way I can know this phone or this watch or this hand or this body is through experiencing it in an alchemy of 5 fluctuations of consciousness.
