How to Lose Fat And Build Muscle at The Same Time (Body Recomposition Explained) ft. Max Coleman and Daniel Plotkin

Hey, guys, this is Daniel Plotkin, and welcome to the Built With Science podcast. I'm one of the science creators here at Built With Science. I'm a published researcher who essentially studies how to lose fat and gain muscle in the most optimal fashion. I got my master's degree at Lehman under Dr. Brad Schoenfeld, which is where I met my co host here, Max Coleman. So let's introduce Max. Give us a little bit of your background.

Thanks. My name is Max Coleman, and like.

Danny said, I'm also a science creator here at Built With Science, and I.

Actually just finished my master's in exercise.

Science, where Danny and I met with.

A focus on how to manipulate training.

Variables to get as jacked as possible. So, essentially, how can we set up our workouts to make ourselves as muscular as we possibly can?

Right.

And speaking of getting jacked, today, for.

The purposes of this podcast, we're gonna talk about body recomposition, right?

We're gonna go over what it is.

How to best set up your diet.

And training to achieve recomposition, who it's best suited for, and some potential downsides for recomping.

And finally, some practical takeaways for the research we have on the topic.

Right?

So for starters, let's talk about what it actually is. Right. So body recomposition, not as complicated as it may sound. All it is is a process by which we gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. Right?

So instead of doing the traditional bulk.

And cut cycles where we either the caloric surplus to build up as much muscle as we possibly can while letting ourselves get a little bit chubby in.

The process and then transitioning to a.

Cut or a diet phase where we're trying to burn as much fat as we possibly can while maintaining all the muscle we built in our bulk.

Right.

And recomposition, on the other hand, is where we attempt to do both of.

Those things at the exact same time.

Right.

Which sounds amazing. And while there are some catches to.

This we'll get into, but first, Danny's gonna tell us a little bit about how we can best set ourselves up to achieve recomposition.

So what should our diet look like?

What should our training look like if this is our goal?

Yep.

So let's start with diet. So what should we eat in order to best create the right internal environment for building muscle and losing fat at the same time? So a lot of these principles are the same principles that would apply to cutting. They're just less severe. So that means that you'll eat in a slight deficit, which is 200 to 300 calories typically. While a more aggressive cut or a typical cut would be 500 to 600 calories. This would be a lot more moderate with 200 to 300. You also same with cutting, want to be at the higher end of protein intake. So the recommended amount is 1,6 grams per kilogram of body weight or. 0,8 grams per pound of body weight. So the same principle will apply here. This has been studied directly. So lots of studies compare lower amounts to higher amounts and find that higher amounts of protein. So in specific, Layman and colleagues, Layman and colleagues looked at 0.8 grams per kg compared to 1.6 grams per kg and to compared and they found that the 1.6grams per kg group of older women gained more muscle from that higher protein intake. So unfortunately we don't have a whole lot of data comparing higher protein intake. So comparing 0.8 grams per pound to 1 gram per pound, not a whole lot of good data there. I doubt it would make that much of a difference. But it could have some benefits to you being a little less hungry. And one thing from a practical standpoint is it may limit what you can have in your meal. So like my typical breakfast meals have to include either a protein shake or some egg whites and some eggs. While if I were to have just whatever I freaking wanted for breakfast, it'd be like 10 waffles or maybe five waffles that fit into that calorie allotment. So I think the one benefit that is sort of outside of creating the right muscle building environment is that you have to choose specific foods at each meal that'll get you to that protein target.

Yeah, I can definitely empathize with that. Obviously biscuits and gravy is my favorite, so a little bit of protein there obviously.

No.

I have a couple questions about why we're necessarily going about it the way that we are.

So given that it's recomping right.

In my head at least, when I hear recomping, I hear of like kind of staying at a, at a similar body weight, even though it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Right. You know, can trend downwards while still building muscle and you could trend upwards in more limited data on that trend upwards while losing body fat. So is there a reason that you recommend specifically eating at a slight deficit as opposed to like a slight surplus or even just like truly eating at maintenance if your goal is recomping?

Yeah. So you could definitely do any of those three options. It's just, it's very Specific to why our. Our tissues prioritize certain things. So because fat is a storage tissue primarily, although it does tons of other things, a surplus of energy tends to go to fat tissue. So even if you're eating in a slight surplus, you'll probably gain a little bit of fat. And the typical person that's trying to recomp is usually trying to see their muscle a bit more and is in a situation where they kind of aren't ready to commit to gaining. So seeing body fat increases. So the reason why typically the recommendation is to be in a moderate deficit is because these are the type of people that can build muscle and lose fat at the same time. So they create the best look that they can in an allotted period of time. But if they wanted to go about it differently, which we'll get into it later on main gaining, then they could definitely do that. But they're slightly turning the dial toward, all right, I'm not gonna lose as much fat, and I might be prioritizing gaining a tiny bit more muscle because of that. So all of this is gonna be sort of a sliding scale based on you specifically and what your body fat and muscle mass look like at the time that you start the recomp journey, so to speak.

Cool. So it sounds like, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that if changing your appearance or like changing, like improving your body composition in kind of like a short. The shorter term, it might be a better idea to go on the.

The.

The slightly closer to a cut side rather than the slightly closer to like a main gaining side, where you're eating at maintenance or like a slight surplus, which makes a lot of sense for sure.

And dan, we talked about.08 grams to like 1 gram per pound of body weight. But I know there are studies where.

They'Re looking at, like, even higher than that, so like 1.5grams per pound of body weight. And I know that they did find some benefit in.

In.

In those. So I can.

I think it was Antonio et al.

Right.

Am I tripping? Okay, Antonio.

At all where they. They. They had individuals eating either at like.

Normal protein, which was. I think I could be wrong, but I think closer to the.08ish per gram.

Yeah, I think it was.

Cause I think it was 1.6grams per kilogram or something around there.

And they had some eating give like 3.2grams per kilogram.

So something like 1.5 grams per pound.

Which for me, I weigh 175 pounds.

That would be like 270 grams of protein, which sounds insane, but the they found pretty impressive findings doing that. So there are reasons that we don't suggest. And when I say pretty impressive findings, let me be clear. They did see better recomping occur in that group than the group that was eating slightly lower. So 1,6 grams per kilogram. Is there a reason that we don't recommend an even higher protein intake than what is normal?

Because the 0.8 to 1 gram is.

What we recommend for most people. Cutting, bulking, maintaining, whatever. But is there a reason we don't recommend higher?

Yeah, I think the reason we don't recommend higher is because generally speaking, you see no differences in people who are eating at maintenance. And I don't know that you would physiologically expect much different in a deficit because you have less muscle to gain. So why do you need that protein around? So that's one potential mechanistic avenue. But more specifically, when it comes to the actual studies, Antonio and colleagues, and this is off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure they saw no differences in skeletal muscle mass, but slightly different fat mass. So they lost a little bit more fat mass while not gaining more skeletal muscle mass. And it wasn't a controlled trial. Not only did they not watch their training, they recorded their training, but they didn't have supervised training. But we are also relying on food logs, and when you see weight loss occur in a group, you can be pretty sure that they were in a deficit. So in that case you would say, okay, the higher or very high protein group in all likelihood ate less and therefore got a little bit more favorable recomp. And it wasn't necessarily because they ate such super high protein amounts per se. It might be that those super high protein amounts made them less or more likely to eat less, but not necessarily that the high protein itself was like causing. There's a dog that's absolutely going ape shit right now outside my window. So that's beautiful.

You're good, bro.

So basically, so basically it's not that in Antonio, it's not that Antonio and colleagues that the protein was able to make them gain more muscle, it's that the protein might have actually just made them eat a little bit less. So they lost more body fat than the other group.

Okay, cool.

Which lends itself even more so kind of to this being at a deficit, maybe more so than eating at maintenance or maintaining it with that one study, obviously, which isn't super great.

Okay, so we've got maybe eat at a slight deficit, though there are other.

Alley ways to go about it, but eat at a slight deficit, around 2 to 100, 200 to 300 calories below maintenance per day.

And then eat probably, you know, the.

The general heuristic for protein, which is about a pound, a gram per pound of body weight.

Right.

So we got those boxes ticked. Do you think that there's other things.

To consider with regards to diet? So, like maybe like nutrient timing, like, should we be a little bit more careful with when we're eating our protein?

And then other macronutrients as well?

Like, should we be concerned with the amount of fat and carbs we're eating? If recomping is our goal specifically, yeah.

So I think similar to cutting, you want to focus a little bit more on the little details because they might matter. In a situation where you're trying to create the most anabolic environment, the most likely environment where you're going to do what you want to do, which is gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, which is hard to do. So eating at the right times is not a huge dial to turn, but it's something that there's no downside. So we talk about getting protein after a workout. Yeah, it might not matter too much, but doing it doesn't have any downsides. So doing that, maybe one lever to turn, That's a very slight lever. Something that might matter a tiny bit more is making sure that you're getting at least three meals as opposed to like one meal or even two meals. I worry less about two meals. I like the sweet spot of three meals. I don't worry that much above three meals. Based on the muscle protein synthesis research and the direct evidence, it doesn't seem to really favor more than three. Although if you really, really want to be on the safe side, four meals of relatively equal protein amounts would probably be like covering all your bases for sure. But I definitely wouldn't worry about three. And in terms of carbohydrate, I see this matter on an individual basis more than I see it happening in studies. And I think even in studies you see specific data points who perform better. But I had one client who, if he didn't eat some carbohydrate source before his training, it just was an absolute train wreck. I have no idea whether it was because of that or placebo, but it seems like some people definitely do better with it and some it really doesn't matter. But in the context of being in a slight deficit, I'd probably lean in on things that might make an impact and don't really have a downside, like getting in enough meals like potentially having enough carbohydrate to supply for your training supplementation. Just keep going with best practices. So make sure you're taking your creatine, caffeine before workouts. Good idea. When in a deficit, you might be less motivated to train and might have higher amounts of fatigue going into training. So all the same stuff that you do in a deficit, you want to be aware of and cross your T's and dot your I's when it comes to recomp. Because it is a deficit, it's just more slight.

Yeah, it sound.

So it sounds like recomping is all. Like, it sounds great and all, but.

It sounds like you kind of have to be on your P's and Q's maybe a little bit more than if your goal is like strictly just building muscle. Basically, you have to be on your P's and Q's as much as you do when you're. You're bulk or cutting in general. Like.

Right.

Because it is at least the way we have it set up here. If, if, if appearance is like the true goal, in a short term, it is closer to a deficit than it is even eating at maintenance. It seems like.

Okay, I think, I think a. A study that. Or a systematic review that sort of is a good place to start is baccarat and colleague, where they go into who. And these are trained individuals. Who is more likely to achieve a recomp. And all the things we mentioned were things that cropped up as stuff that mattered. So getting all those little things right added up to trained individuals, which we'll talk about later, gaining muscle and losing.

Fat at the same time.

So I think that's important to point out because if you see it in trained individuals, then if you're getting all that right in untrained individuals, then it could matter even more.

That is Barakat and colleagues, I believe. I. I'm not that colleague.

I always. I always mess up his name. I'm sorry. I apologize. Yeah, I'm gonna do that a lot more. Iraq.

Let's not. Not someone who you seemingly want to.

Get in some beef with. That dude is kind of terrifying looking, super sweet, don't get me wrong, but he is yolked out of his freaking mouth. All right.

So beautiful.

Be on your P's and Q's.

Make sure you're getting enough protein around a gram per pound.

A very slight deficit, you know, three, two to 300. And don't miss.

Don't skip the little details. Make sure you're getting your creatine. Make sure you're getting your sleep, make sure you're taking caffeine. If it's the wintertime, take some vitamin.

D. Now, all that being said, diet cool. We got that covered.

How exactly should we be training? Is it gonna look different than how.

It would look if we were bulking or cutting?

Or is it just about the same kind of similar to how nutrition is?

Yeah, I think it would be very similar to normal training. So make sure that you're getting adequate volume between 10 and 20 sets per major muscle group per week. Making sure that you're hitting each muscle group two times per week. Making sure that the exercise selection is conducive to you getting all the good stimulus to fatigue ratio. So each exercise is giving you really good stimulus and not likely to fatigue you per set. So doing your farmer's carries and all that kind of fun stuff that you might do during a bulk, because you just love doing it, probably don't do when in a deficit, things like that. The one thing that I will say from a practical standpoint, and there's not a whole lot of direct research on this, is that when you're in a slight deficit or at maintenance, you could probably push your training a little bit more without worrying, but you still want to be aware of fatigue while in a surplus. I'm less cognizant of my fatigue on a session, per session basis. I just push it. And don't worry too much about that. I worry a little bit about it. Cause you should always, you know, be cognizant of it. But in a deficit, I, I'm more cognizant of that. And I, if I feel anything, I don't push as hard. I don't think it's worth it to, you know, fire on all cylinders while in a slight deficit. If you're not feeling it, if you feel great, I think that's when you should push it, especially in a slight deficit versus a more aggressive deficit. But it's something to be more cognizant of as you go into training. But that's the only real difference. Other than that, just make sure you're doing all the same things that you would do during regular training and getting all those things right and you'll set yourself up for the right muscle building environment.

Cool.

Yeah.

It kind of seems like regardless of.

What you're talking about as far as, like the phase that a, a, a competitive physique athlete might be in training is almost always the constant in that we just don't have a lot of direct data looking at how to train during different dietary phases. But we do have a lot of data on just how to train in.

General and just usually generally speaking, all of the, the thing that's kind of.

Cool about research is that it's based on averages. Right.

And when you look at these studies.

Some we're talking about all exercise science literature here, not just those that are covered in the, in the bar review or just recomping literature in general, but.

All exercise science literature where they're looking.

At like muscle growth and fat loss. These individuals, like let's say you have 50 individuals in a study, some of them are going to be cutting just and not, not even intentionally. They're just eating in a caloric deficit sometimes and then sometimes you're going to have individuals in a surplus. So we have a general idea of how to train throughout all phases because of the research that we have, but no direct research that we have looking at like how to train during specific cuts so. Or specific dietary phases. So just training with best practices in general seems to be the best move when you're, when you're trying to reconstruct.

Right?

Yeah.

There is one study that looked at this directly which found that there were no differences between slightly lower volumes and slightly higher volumes. And there's another study which looked at rep ranges and found that there was no difference in that context as well. And it was a moderate deficit in that case in those studies. So very similar to what we're talking about here with recomping. So that's why I don't worry about it too much and sort of let my fatigue guide me when it comes to how hard I'll push each individual set on a per session basis. But very generally speaking, just try to get the most, the highest quality session that you can in the context that you're in and you'll be fine. Because the like you said, group averages don't point in any specific direction.

Yeah.

Which is cool because then you can sort of choose based on your preferences. So a lot of the time people don't like seeing no differences. But I love seeing no differences cause it means that I can individualize training for myself, my clients and recommendations.

So yeah, it's scary when you're looking, it's scary when you so, so you.

Can empathize with this. I'm sure it's scary when you see no differences when you're first getting into lifting because you want research to tell you what to do. Which if you know anything about research and you know anything about evidence based practice, research never tells you what to do. It just gives you an idea of what you can do. And when you get deeper and deeper into the game, finding no difference is actually kind of like in some instances more exciting because it means, oh, I get to chew, like, do I like taking a week off of the gym every once in a while? Oh, I can do that without worrying about it having a huge impact on my, on my physique or my strength or what have you.

Right?

Yeah. So I couldn't agree more. Awesome.

So eat slight deficit, lots of protein, be on your P's and Q's and.

Train like you normally would train regardless of what phase you're in. Cool.

So we've covered how to go about doing so.

Right.

We pulled a lot of levers here. Now let's discuss who recomping is probably best for.

Right.

Because I'm sure if you're listening to.

This podcast, you've probably heard the prevailing.

Idea that it is possible.

Recomping is something that occurs, but only in a very small number of situations.

Right.

Novice rank beginners, individuals on performance enhancing drugs, people who've come back from a long layoff, stuff like that.

Right.

And it's also the prevailing idea that well trained individuals, people with multiple years.

Of lifting under their belt, there's no.

Way it's physically impossible.

It's not gonna happen. You have to bulk and you have to cut if you wanna improve your physique.

Right.

But this doesn't seem to be really the case.

We'll.

We'll get into how this can be.

Thought of as like a sliding scale or a dial rather than a switch. But first let's talk about who is actually more likely to achieve a recomp.

Who?

Who?

This might actually be a good option for. And I kind of already alluded to.

This, new lifters are obviously the most.

Likely to undergo recomping. Right. Especially new lifters who are a little overweight.

Right.

And the reason that I think, and.

You can touch on this, Daniel, if you, if you disagree or, or if.

You have similar thoughts that recomping for beginners is a really good idea. And the reason I think it's a really a good idea is because I think that when introducing people to lifting.

You shouldn't throw them into a particular phase or anything crazy like that. You shouldn't throw them a program with bells and whistles and a diet plan with bells and whistles.

Right.

We should be teaching them how to monitor their own hunger, like signaling.

Right.

Or, or to getting better at listening to their own like body telling Them what to do or nutrition and lifting as well.

Right.

And I kind of think of body.

Recomposition as like a side effect of.

The first six months to a year.

Of, of lifting in which you're trying to build these habits which will take you through a career of, of the iron, so to speak.

Right.

So basically new, new lifters are probably.

The most likely to undergo recomping.

And I think a really good practice, like a rule of thumb or practice, good practice here, is just having individuals build these habits of lifting and eating intuitively and safely and seeing kind of where they fall after recomping for six.

Months to a year. And that can kind of determine where we go after that as far as like phases are concerned.

Right.

The next. It sounds like what you're saying.

Go ahead.

So it sounds like what you're saying is that they should do more of a main gaming type thing where you're turning the dial not necessarily toward a slight deficit, but more toward let them eat how they want, gain good habits, you know, eat their fruits and veggies and wherever they land or probably will probably be around maintenance, maybe slight surplus, maybe slight deficit. But you're not too worried about that because, you know, since they're so sensitive to growth, they're likely going to recomp in all those contexts. So it's not necessarily that we're recommending that they go on any specific phase, but that they let their body sort of guide them. And people typically end up doing the right things more when they're building a habit. Instead of throwing multiple habits at them, just let that take its course. Does that sound about right?

Yeah, it's, it's not only does it sound right, it sounds better than what I said.

So I think that you kind of alluded to it perfectly and that their bodies are kind of going to go.

In the direction that they were already going in anyway.

So like you're going to have individuals build these good habits and if their hunger signaling is a little stronger than others, then they're kind of doing like.

A slight bull unintentionally anyway. And that's going to lead them to a place in a year or six months where we should probably do a distinct cutting phase in general. And the same goes the other way, right, where we kind of just let their body do what they want and they might end up leading at a slight deficit for a little while. And by at the end of the six months to a year, it's like, oh wow, it's time to like, maybe we should really start Turning the dial up and start throwing some calories this person's way so they can get some really good growth. And like you said, it doesn't really matter which direction they go in because we have data showing recomposition happening in. In a surplus and in a def.

That they.

They're gonna get favorable results regardless because they're just so prone to growth.

Right.

So, yeah, I think.

Beautifully stated.

All right, so obviously novice lifters, overweight individuals are another prime candidate for.

For recomposition.

Not necessarily because they're just so prone.

To growth, but because they are kind of the opposite. They're just so prone, they have so much excess energy that they're willing to get rid of. And you can kind of talk about.

Molecularly or physiologically why overweight individuals may.

Be more likely to achieve recomposition than let' someone at a lower body fat percentage.

Yeah, I think the cool part about having more fat to lose is that you can use that endogenous energy, that energy that you literally have stored to power processes that happen at other cell types. So muscle cells. So overweight individuals can get away with it more because one, they have those endogenous stores. But two, the overall anabolic environment environment will be higher for people who have more body fat. Because if you think about it sort of from an evolutionary standpoint, your body wants to make sure that you have enough body fat around. And once you've kicked that box, it's not gonna worry as much about what's going on at a different tissue. So muscle tissue, it'll allow some growth, that muscle tissue, if it's not worried about the total anabolic environment. But if you're lean enough where your body's like, oh crap, we're at body fat levels where now we need to worry about this famine or we need to worry about holding on to that body fat. It's not going to prioritize using that energy from fat to fuel muscle gain. It's going to make sure that either muscle maintains or muscle is actually lost to prioritize holding onto fat stores.

Cool.

Awesome. Well said.

So overweight individuals, novice trainers and then. Or novice trainees.

Sorry.

And then the third category here is individuals who would kind of classify themselves.

As intermediates or even advanced sometimes, but.

Are people that basically still can optimize training and nutrition.

Right.

So people who. They've been lifting for three to five years and they tick most of their boxes, but they eat 11 to 12.

Grams of protein on average each day.

Right.

Maybe they could. They. They have a stone to turn over.

Right, like increasing protein intake or, or.

Maybe individuals who on average train like.

5 to 6 RIR and but we could maybe push them a little bit closer to failure and they could see pretty, pretty improved gains as well.

Just any individual who has a couple.

Of training of years of training under.

Their belt that still has like some.

Stones to turn over essentially.

I think those are also good candidates for lifting. And in fact I didn't have this in the notes, but I think that that group is probably the group that.

We see the most often in literature. Looking at recomposition in trained individual are.

People who have been lifting for a little while and they check like 80%.

Of the boxes that they're supposed to check.

But then they come into a program.

Where either they're being fed more protein or they just have a team of research assistants around them.

Because for those of you who don't know, Dan and I are both involved in research and the environments in which.

Training occurs in a lab are much different than what you see at gyms, for instance.

So people on average are pushing harder.

Than they normally would outside of a.

Study, for instance, they're usually training well.

Because these studies are usually written up by people who have like a pretty good idea of how training programs are supposed to be written.

So like I said, I think that's like perhaps the majority of the people that we see undergoing some sort of.

Recomposition in the literature.

Right?

You ask. The majority is.

Dan, I know you can probably empathize with this because I helped you with your thesis and I actually know that you can empathize with this.

But when you're doing post testing for.

These individuals in our studies, we, I'll usually ask them like, hey, how hard did you get? Like, were you pushed hard? Who pushed you the hardest? And nine times outta 10 actually if I'm giving an accurate number, let's see.

209, 198 times out of 200 because.

I think that's the number of subjects I've worked with over the last two years.

One said that they weren't pushed harder.

In the study than they normally push themselves in regular training.

Right.

So I think that is a, is a big thing to consider.

If you have stones to turn over.

Which you definitely do because everyone does, it's possible that recomposition might be an option for you. Right, okay, sorry, kind of belabored that point.

But there are other cases in which.

Body recomposition are possible as well. So like in instances after a long.

Layoff, this is kind of a belaboring.

The point of novice, because a well trained individual who undergoes like, I don't know, a couple of months or six months of detraining, you're essentially a novice. You're a novice again as far as your body response to training. So you're, you're, you're someone who could be really good. You're someone who could be set up really well for recomposition.

Right.

And then obviously we talked about users.

They're great candidates just because they have such an anabolic environment in general. Like their, their system is basically just so ready for growth that they can kind of do whatever they want, including not training, and grow a fair bit of muscle.

And we will.

What you're saying is that we should take peds?

Yes, that, that, that is the built with science recommendation stamp of approval we recommend. Actually, my favorite gym advice is if.

You don't see the results you want in your first week, start using anabolic steroids. So, yes, Danny, thank you for being more concise than I could be about that.

Okay. The last kind of thing to consider.

For who recomping might be good for.

And this actually isn't a who but a what and something that I don't think is talked about very often or neglected muscles. So, for instance, Danny and I both, I think like, cumulatively, between the two.

Of us, have probably like 20 years of training experience or something. I've been lifting since I was like 12 years old and I'm 25, but.

I've never really trained my forearms. Like, I've never really given them their due diligence.

I let them get hit through like rowing movements and pulling movements and what, and, and, and basically all other, you know, ancillary that hits them from, from exercise. Right.

But I've never, you know, had a.

Distinct, like, okay, a forearm training session where I'm doing curls, grip work and stuff like that.

Right.

So let's say I go into a.

Caloric, like, I start a cut, right? And I, while I'm cutting, decide, okay, I'm gonna start training my forearms a little bit more.

Seriously, I would be shocked if I.

Wasn'T able to go undergo serious recomposition into my forms. Right. Like my whole system's not recomping, obviously, but my forearms are probably growing more.

Substantially than they would more substantially, even though that I'm in a deficit.

Because they're essentially an untrained muscle. Right.

So muscles that have been neglected or.

Lagging body parts because of neglect, not necessarily just lagging because of your genetics may be a really good candidate for recomposition. But that's not full body. It's a very sub discipline of who recomping is good for. So I kind of threw a lot out there at you guys, if. Or at you, Daniel.

So if you have any questions or.

If you want to add anything to who recomping may be a good idea for, go ahead.

Yeah, I think that was a really good summary. I think to sort of summarize, all the situations that you mentioned are situations where either a specific muscle group or an individual is more sensitive to growth. And because they're more sensitive to growth on the muscle level, they can get away with being in a net catabolic environment while also building muscle. So we always need to think about, like, people are always, well, if I'm. If I'm in a deficit, like, how can I gain tissue? We all. We always need to think about it from a specific tissue level. So each tissue has different environments, and our body wants to hold onto them for different reasons and at different rates. So, for example, if this was true for all tissues, if all tissues were being continuously broken down, then we would literally like lose our skin and the epithelial cells, like the outer layer of our blood vessels would just degrade in a deficit. But no, those tissues still need to be in an anabolic environment because they're turning over you. You get new skin cells and new epithelial cells at such high rates. And our body prioritizes that anabolic environment for them because of the fact that we need them. So this is sort of sliding it down to other tissues where now we're specifically talking about fat and muscle tissue, where in environments where the muscle is sensitive to growth, you can get away with being in a net catabolic environment, while in situations where the muscle is not as sensitive to growth, you might not be able to get away with it, which is what we're about to get into. So who is it bad for? So do you want to add anything before I hop into that?

No, I think that was beautiful.

And I think it kind of lends itself to my favorite analogy ever in.

Fitness, which is that body recomposition is.

A dial, not a switch. So it's not like. Which we're about to get into. Like, leaner, more advanced individuals just aren't going to recomp as well as, as. As like novice trainees with more body fat.

Right.

They're just individuals who. That dial is turned way up, but it's not like it's a switch that's turned off.

So the, the second that you get below 10% body fat, your ability to recomp is switched off. Right? It's just the dial is turned significantly to the left or right in this situation.

Right.

And this kind of goes with tissues, right? So a lot of people wonder why. Like okay, so I know that when.

I diet like my, my ability to produce, you know, muscle mass, like to grow muscle mass is, is limited, but it's not turned off.

Because if, if, if you went into.

A deficit, this is exactly what you were just saying, you went into a deficit and then your ability to just use protein essentially or your body's ability.

To do anything is just gone.

Like yeah, you would die, you would lose all your skin, your, your nails and your hair would stop growing entirely every time you dieted. Right.

So think of and all, all things.

In fitness and in health and in life, think of them as dials rather than switches.

With that being said, earlier we talked.

About recomping does have its downsides, right? Not everything. It's not all magic and unicorns, right? It's not this magic bullet that's going to oh, I can just stay lean and get jacked forever.

Right.

Let's talk about the individuals who recomping.

Might not be such a good idea for. So those who the switches turned down rather than up. People that are less growth or prone to muscle growth. Yeah, for sure.

So we touched on this, but we'll sort of get into it in a more pointed fashion. So leaner people, people with less body fat are much less likely to recomp and at a certain level of leanness, you're actually very likely to lose muscle mass. So this is not the case for most individuals, cuz most individuals don't get that lean. But in the case of bodybuilders, they get stupid lean. So in males getting down to you know, 7, 6, 5% body fat, you're probably gonna lose some muscle mass. Interestingly, systematic review that you were recently involved in found that, and while this is not super strong evidence, women are more likely to hold onto muscle mass in that context, while men lost muscle mass pretty substantially, it's important to point out that the muscle mass will likely rebound afterward. But in the case of being in a deficit while being very lean, you will probably expect some muscle loss. While most people don't need to worry about that, it's important to point it out for two reasons. One, because you see that if you turn that dial all the way, then bad things can happen, obviously muscle loss can occur. And two, it sort of points out that it might differ even by gender. We don't know. Hopefully stronger evidence will come out in the future. But something to consider when seeing when also trying to sort of audit your own training and make sure it's going well and all the. All the things that you would sort of use as a gouge for how you're. How successful your recomp is going. I think another thing to point out is that more experienced individuals, as you mentioned, are less likely to recomp. The more likely that they are to be crossing their T's and dotting their I's, the less likely that recomp would occur. Older individuals who are less sensitive to growth may be in less of a position to recomp. And literally all of these are pointing toward the exact opposite of what we were talking about, where the people who are more sensitive to growth on a muscle tissue level are more likely to recomp, while the people that are least sensitive to growth on a muscle tissue level are less likely to recomp. So in that case, they would probably want to have distinct phases where you keep a specific environment for an appreciable period of time. So that way you can know that you're heading in the right direction. So we touched on this just in our private chat yesterday, where not only does it make sense to do distinct phases from environment standpoint, but also from a practical standpoint, you like to see that things are going in the right direction when you're training and numbers matter. But in terms of numbers lifted. But numbers on the scale really help you to know that things are heading in the right direction. And if I, for four months didn't see my schedule but my scale weight change, I would be like, am I really doing this right? Like, especially with how well trained I am and how long I've been training, I would start to worry more than an individual who is a beginner where they can look in the mirror and see that, yeah, the scale weight hasn't changed, but I'm really filling out these shirts better. I. I clearly gain muscle. When you're gaining small amounts of muscle, it's hard to really tell how much progress you've made. So I want to make sure that the scale weight's going in the right direction so that I can be more confident that things are going well.

Yeah, it's hypertrophy.

Like, so like we said, Dan and I have, like, 20 years of experience between the two of us. So hypertrophy at this point in our lifting career is already so hard to measure. I mean, it is, it is. You know, we're, we're lucky if we put on a couple grams of muscle a year, essentially. Joking.

But it is, it is really slow. Even when we do very distinct bulking.

Phases where we're seeing that weight go up, it's incredibly slow. And then we have to wait to see again. Like, we have to cut down to see if that bulk worked right.

And taking that and making it an even slower process can be really. It's not necessarily worse. We don't have data to suggest even that it's worse, but it, it, psychologically, it's difficult.

So, like, for instance, when I'm cutting.

And I see the, the, the number.

On the scale go down, I can be very sure that I'm, I'm reaching.

My goal for anyway. But it's just even that, like, that.

You know, that stupid monkey lizard brain where it's just like, oh, number go down.

My.

My work is working for me can be really good.

And you kind of don't necessarily get.

That from recomping, especially, like you said in those later stages.

Right.

And I think another downside to consider here is that a lot of people.

Want to recomp because it kind of sounds like this magic bullet where we're.

Like, oh, I can just stay lean and I can, I can just kind of live life a little bit more with and, And.

And build some muscle.

And they kind of touched on this.

In the Iron Culture podcast where they actually had Chris Barakat talk about recomping. It's.

It's kind of the opposite of what.

You want recomping to be because you want it to be this fun little like, oh, I can just live life like a normal person. I'll just stay lean and get jacked, but it's.

It's in it. And then to get the most out of your recomp phase, you have to be.

It's like you're dieting.

You have to be on your P's.

And Q's much more. You have to dial your eyes and cross your T's much more than you.

Do in, like, distinct phases.

Especially a bulk, obviously.

So that, that's another thing to consider.

Is that while it sounds fun and amazing, it's. It's almost like cutting for like eight months instead of, like, doing a distinct bulk and then a cut for like, four months. Even an extreme cut for four months. Does that make sense?

Yeah, for sure. And I think the degree matters too, in terms of how much muscle you can gain in a specific period of time may not be. So we said we don't have direct evidence. And it's true that we don't have direct evidence at where you will end up in the end. If you spend let's say eight months doing a recomp phase versus doing a six month bulk and a two month cut, my guess is, is that you would end up in a better situation with distinct cycles. But the reason I believe that is more from a physiological mechanistic standpoint and less direct evidence. But I think one thing to point out is anecdote is not useful in a lot of contexts. But in some contexts it can be a bit more useful. So training types like I, I love when people talk about like how do I need strain, all that kind of stuff. Like I don't care at all about how they train because there's so many bodybuilders that did it very, very different ways that produced, you know, similar results. Obviously there's the eat of pds, all that kind of stuff that sort of muddies the waters. I care very little about that stuff. I find it interesting, but I care very little. If every single bodybuilder does distinct cut bulk cycles, then I'm more confident that they're probably not spinning their wheels. Especially in the context of even bodybuilders that are using P DS have distinct bulk cut cycles. I can be a little bit more confident in that anecdote when I don't know, one bodybuilder just recomps all, all day, every day. So it's, it's a context where I think it's important to consider that anecdote across a population that's trying to maximize muscle building as their job. So yeah, something to consider and there's.

There'S something to say about like anecdotal consensus.

Like yeah, for instance, like you can cherry pick bodybuilders and be like look, dude, Dorian Yates built the great Tom Platts, built the greatest legs ever using squats.

Only I have to use squats. Like that's cherry picking. But like you said, every single body.

If, if all of a group of.

People are doing something, there's likely a reason for it, right?

And we don't know if recomping is.

More efficient over the long haul. So like let's say over. Let's say Danny and I both started lifting at 20 and at 40 we measured who grew more muscle unless they were twins. Also and Dan went through distinct phases of bulking and cutting.

In the short term, Dan is achieving.

His goal much more efficiently. So like as far as muscle growth is concerned, we do have evidence to suggest that eating at a surplus is better for growing more muscle than, than eating at, at maintenance or at a deficit.

Right.

But he then has to go through a period of cutting over those, you.

Know, that 20 year period, whereas I.

Just stay maintain, like maintaining or, or.

Recomping the entire time.

And 20 years later we don't know.

Which one of us reaches our goal, like which one of us is going to be better off after those 20 years. But we do know that in that one year period, that first year in 20 to 21, Danny did achieve his goals potentially better than I do in those distinct phases. So at one point in time he was achieving muscle growth better than I was. And at one point in time he was achieving fat loss better than I was. So that's something to consider as well. Is that like kind of instant gratification of cutting and bulking? Because we do live in a society where people want results quickly, obviously, so that's important to be aware of. Okay, I've, I've just gone off on tangents. So where are we now as far.

As downsides and things to consider?

Yeah, so I think another thing just to piggyback off that tangent, because we love tangents, is that people like phases. So holiday time, people want to overeat by a little bit and planning my bulk around that time sort of makes my quality of life better. So even if it didn't matter, I think many people would kind of prefer phases for the reason we mentioned before. Seeing scale weight change, knowing you're going in the right direction, but also just phases in life are more psychologically pleasing to the majority of individuals, me included, a bunch of my clients. So that's something to definitely consider. But let's also consider the flip side. So who psychologically would probably benefit more from doing more of a recomp phase or a main gaining phase, even if it wasn't the most optimal option. So you want to hop into that or should I talk a little bit about it and then you'll interject?

Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter. Basically I just want to get the point across that recomping is awesome.

In a lot of cases it's always just not the best option for everyone for reasons that we kind of just outlined.

But if you are planning on committing.

Yourself to a recomp, here are some.

Instances where we think it's a good.

Idea as well as just some pragmatic things to consider. Right. So for you want to talk about finishing your first fat loss phase, for instance, and what, and, and how to go about maybe a re. A recomp or main gain after finishing a first long fat loss phase.

Yeah, so I think, yeah, that's one instance for sure that you would maybe not want to hop straight into a bulking phase because you just spent a long time getting a lot of things right in order to achieve your first longer fat loss phase, where many people are apprehensive to gain that fat back. From a psychological standpoint and just from, you know, I just reached my goal standpoint, why would I want to reverse it and not look good in a bathing suit for a whole. For a whole while? So I think many people fall into a category where psychologically they're not really ready to put on that fat mass and also psychologically they benefit from learning maintenance. So where these individuals didn't spend a whole lot of time at maintenance because they were either gaining weight throughout their life or they just finished that longer fat loss phase and having a situation where they spend, you know, maybe four or six months getting used to life, just building habits of not gaining weight at all and really just focusing on training and keeping up the good habits that they somewhat gained from a cutting phase, but different habits. So people always talk about like, oh, like you can cut forever, but it's. The cutting is a distinctly different from maintenance. It's a totally different thing where you are eating a bit more. And there's different habits associated with being at maintenance than losing fat. So having them practice that skill is super important before they jump into another gaining phase. So similar. Similarly, I think people with insecurities, so they might not have necessarily went through a long fat loss phase, but I know I have a lot of female clients that just will not tolerate any fat gain and some male clients too, actually, but tends to be more female where they really would even sacrifice gaining muscle in order to stay lean or leaner year round. And that's totally fine. It's a personal preference thing. As long as they're being cognizant of when that's really come to a halt, I think that's totally fine. In terms of spending more time than they maybe should from an optimal standpoint, they. They can still make really good progress from doing a main gaining type situation for an appreciable amount of time.

Yeah, I think that those, those fall in line with one another pretty well.

The insecurity about weight gain because individuals.

Who usually go to undergo their first fat loss phase are. Are also individuals who are kind of insecure or worried about weight gain.

Right.

And I think that that you kind of touched on this. And this is just an important point that's kind of separate from recomping. I just want to make very clear.

Fitness is a lifestyle. Fitness is a series of decisions you make and it does become a hobby.

And in some instances it becomes a lifestyle. Like in the instance of Dan and me where we just managed our whole life.

Right.

But cutting is not supposed to be sustainable. Like dieting and attempting to lose weight.

Is not something that is supposed to be sustainable. It is supposed to be a distinct phase. And so that's just something that gets. Bothers me very much is that people talk about how dieting is a lifestyle. It's, it's not. It should be something, it should be a tool that you use to make your life better. But anyway, sorry, yeah, couldn't agree more about all the recomping stuff too.

And then yeah, you had some stuff here about like holidays and like, and.

And you know, the, the Christmas season.

We call it a holidays, but it's the Christmas season. It's the, it's the October, November, December months that might be a good option.

For individuals wanting to do recomping. You want to touch on that a little bit?

Yeah. So I think it was similar to what I mentioned before where some like, life just is nice in phases where having, you know, phases where you're gaining muscle or eating more and therefore in an environment where you can gain more muscle, eating a bit more is conducive to gaining muscle. So training periodizing your training to be harder during those phases so that, that extra, those extra calories and that extra protein or whatever doesn't go to quote, unquote, waste. It's probably a good idea. So even if you're in a main gaming phase, try not to kid yourself into saying that, oh, like I'm just going to maintain this whole year when in all likelihood, if you're a normal individual, you're probably going to have some phases, whether it's holidays or whether somebody's coming to visit and so on, where you're going to gain more weight. So be realistic with yourself. If you can truly maintain throughout the year, that's totally fine. But it would be horrible if you weren't doing that and you also weren't crossing your T's and dotting your eyes while you were in a surplus and so on. So I just wanted to point out with the holiday thing that being honest with yourself is super important with this stuff because you may leave games on the table when you potentially could have picked them up.

So, yeah, and there are some things to consider. So this is like, we're talking about.

Like, just pragmatic things to consider if you are considering doing a, a recomping phase.

And these things are, are, you know.

Kind of sounding like a broken record. Cause we'll talk about them regardless of what phase you're in. But managing sleep and stress are incredibly important. So when we're talking about dotting your eyes and, and, and crossing your eyes and dotting your T's, the most important thing is probably managing your stress, whether that be psychological stress, physiological stress. Making sure that your sleep is both, like the quality and quantity of your.

Sleep is in check because you're not.

In an environment where you're super prone to muscle growth or fat loss. So again, making sure that you're doing the things that are going to best set you up for an anabolic environment is probably your best bet.

So always, regardless of which phase you're.

In, make sure that you're managing your stress and make sure that you're getting good quality sleep. Zequil, throw me a sponsor, please.

Okay, so we've thrown a metric crap.

Ton of information at y' all over the last, I don't know, 60 minutes or so.

So, Danny boy, why don't you quickly.

Tie all of this together and give us a quick summary of what recomping is and how we can best go about it.

Yeah, so recomping, building muscle, losing fat. At the same time, people who are more sensitive to growth are more likely to achieve recomp and more likely to be in a better cost benefit analysis for embarking on a recomp, while people on the opposite side of things, people who are less sensitive to muscle growth can still definitely achieve recomp, but they are potentially individuals that the cost benefit analysis leans more toward having distinct phases. And so in order to go about doing this, if you decide to go on a recomp and realize that you're in one category versus another is all the same things that you do during a cut. So making sure that you're getting enough protein, making sure that you're getting at least two meals, but ideally three or four meals where you have split up your protein, making sure that your training is good, just like normal training, getting adequate volume, making sure that you're hitting each muscle group two times per week, and managing stress so you consider stress as a stress bucket. Don't let that stress bucket overflow. Get adequate sleep. Make sure that your friends aren't assholes, make sure that you're not embarking on a recomp when you're going through a divorce or something like that. And yeah, just if all else fails, P DS Match recommended them. I did not. Legal.

No, no, no. Built with science.

Built with science. Recommended it. The company.

Built with science. The company is liable if there's any issues. And yeah, hopefully it was informative. You want to play us out?

Yeah, I just one the last thing.

I'll say about recomping before before closing.

Is there are probably two things that.

Are the most important when considering a recomp. Right. So if you're considering a recomp, just make sure you consider these two variables before thinking that it's a good or bad idea for you. And I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, but I think that is starting body fat percentage as well as training status. And they talked about this on the Iron Culture podcast as well, which is different than training age. So like that, that kind of takes training status takes into account layoffs, small periods away from training muscle groups that may not be hit as super well. So the, the lower the training status and the higher the body fat percentage and the younger you are to a certain extent and your gender maybe even may be your best bet for setting yourself up for recomp.

So a really, really overweight individual who's.

Never lifted a weight in their life.

The dial is turned way up for.

Their ability to recomp.

And then a 10 year training individual.

Who'S been on his P's and Q's the entire time and is at like 5% body fat, his ability or her ability to recomp is way down. So make sure you keep the dial and switch thing in your mind when thinking about recomping. And yeah, great summary there, Daniel. A wonderful job and thank you all so much for listening. Make sure you comment below if you're watching this on YouTube what you thought and if you want to see any episodes covering different topics later or just hit us up on Instagram at Built with Science and DM us if you want to see any other topics covered on this podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening.