The BEST Way to Use Protein To Build Muscle

Foreign. What's going on, everybody? And welcome back to the Built With Science podcast. You're here with your host, as always, of course, me, myself and I, that is Max Coleman, AKA Coleman at all. And sitting directly in front of me, only 1,000 miles away, is the one and only Daniel Plotkin, aka Double Plot Plotkin, aka Danny Boy. And today and our nut. In our next and second shortened episode of the BWS podcast, we're going to be talking about protein. We're going to talk about all the major boxes that you need to tick in order to make sure that you're ensuring adequate intakes times, all that kind of stuff to ensure that you're building optimal amounts of muscle and or retaining optimal amounts of muscle when dieting. Right. So before we do that, Danny Boy, what is protein and why do we care about it in the first place?

Yeah, so protein is probably the most. Yeah, not probably. It is the most above, the most by far makeup of all of our tissues and neurotransmitters and pretty much everything in our body. We get DNA to RNA to protein. You know, the central dogma of biological dogma of biology. Exactly. So, yeah, yep, pretty much the holy grail of one, things that we don't care about, and two, the thing that we do care about, which is muscle tissue. But yeah, many people forget that proteins are needed for tons of processes in the body. Signaling molecules, neurotransmitters. We wouldn't have thoughts without proteins. We wouldn't be able to carry oxygen without protein. Just literally almost any action you think of involves tons of proteins that are unrelated to muscle tissue.

We wouldn't be able to process the other two macronutrients if it weren't for protein.

Yeah, exactly. So what is protein? Protein is made up of amino acids and then they turn into these large structures. So without getting into the biochemistry and getting into the, you know, tertiary and quaternary structures of protein, just know that that complex shape is what allows a lot of the proteins to actually exhibit the functions that they do in the body and bind to specific transmitters and so on. But importantly, and I think now is the time to get into this, we can't synthesize every amino acid. So while there's 20amino acids, nine of them are essential. And that means that we need to consume them in order to actually get them within our body. And that's why consumption of protein is totally necessary, while with the other macronutrients, technically we can produce all that we need to at least survive, not necessarily, not necessarily thrive, but at least survive.

So, yeah, you could say that protein is the only essential macronutrient out there. The reason being is because it contains nitrogen and none of the other ones do, obviously, and that nitrogen is incredibly important for all of these processes that we were just talking about. Right? So we care about protein intake in general because we can't synthesize it on our own for, you know, breathing and functioning normally as a human being. But we're listening, we're talking, we're on a Built With Science podcast. Anyway, no one cares about breathing or thinking or listening. We care about muscle growth. So why in the world would we care about protein in the context of getting yacked up?

Yeah, so I just. I just told you. Are you, Are you not? I'm kidding. So, like, making fun of Max here.

So that's essentially what the Built With Science podcast is. It's the. Hey, everyone, look how smart Danny boy is and looks.

So not only do we have those nine essential amino acids for tons of process in the body, but we have these specific branch chain amino acids which are really important, specifically leucine, which are really important for muscle protein synthesis. So getting those amino acids to become building blocks in our muscles. And we need all of the amino acids, including the nine essential ones. But there's some that are a bit more important when it comes to signaling for those building blocks to end up in our muscle tissue. So, yeah, we just, we need them in order to, one, signal for maximal muscle protein synthesis and two, in order to actually provide the building blocks to add to that tissue that we care.

About and to ensure, and correct me if I'm wrong, to ensure that we are not losing muscle tissue. Right? Because again, because we can't. We can't synthesize a lot of these amino acids, we have to go into our own stores, we, which essentially is our muscle, to get the stuff that we care way more about than being jacked. Like, let's say that you don't have adequate protein intake, which I think is like, was it 0.8 grams per kilogram or something like that? The RDA. So, like, which is much lower than what we tend to recommend for muscle growth, which we'll get into a second. But basically, if you're not eating enough protein, your body goes into the place, the one place where you do store protein, which is your muscles, and takes what it needs to do the things that are far more important than being jacked. Right. Like we said, protein is responsible for breathing and, and for delivering oxygen to tissues to carry out various functions in the body. And unfortunately, from an evolutionary standpoint, not from a cultural standpoint, but from an evolutionary standpoint, we care more about that than being jacked. Right. So we need to, one, for the signaling to tell our muscles to grow, two, to. For the building blocks to then build the muscle, and three, to ensure that we're not taking protein from the muscles to go do more important functions to the body. Right. Okay, so now we know why protein is important. We know what protein is. What do we need to tick, what boxes do we need to tick to ensure that we're doing all that is necessary to maximize muscle growth and or to maximize muscle retention? While dieting, what are the things that we need to consider with respect to protein? Danny boy?

Yeah, so you mentioned while dieting, but I think we could just cover all three sort of states that we can be in. You can either be in a deficit maintenance or surplus, and protein needs may change in those different contexts. But overall, I think the main category that you really want to cover is total amount of protein. Regardless of the context that we're talking about, total amount of protein is going to be the show. So as long as you're getting that total amount of protein, then you're at least ticking a major box. And the total amount of protein, at least in the context of maintenance and surplus, that you want to be shooting for in order to maximize muscle growth is about 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight, of body weight or body mass. And if you're very overweight, you can use ideal body weight instead of just body weight. And in a deficit, it might need to go a little bit higher, but probably not necessary as it currently stands. But if you're really trying to tick your boxes, going up to 2.2 or a gram per pound and maybe even higher might make some sense in a deficit, specifically.

Yeah, yeah. So they think that there's a lot of contention with respect to whether or not you need to change protein intake over the course of different diets. There are a lot of people argue that you. Actually, some people even bring it down so that you can have more carbs when you're dieting to and to fuel those workouts a little better. I wouldn't hang my hat on that too much just because we have more and more evidence coming out that keto diets might not be as bad as one might thought for muscle growth and for bodybuilding purposes in general. Not that we're recommending that by any means, but Generally speaking, yes, 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight is a good bet, regardless of which diet phase you're in. However, if you really want to hedge your bets with respect to muscle retention, maybe even muscle growth, we have a whole episode on can you recomp? Then you probably want to stick that closer to the one gram per pound. And if you're truly a neurotic individual, you can go a little bit higher, but we're not necessarily recommending that. Right. So that's the biggest box far and away. These other two things, there's two more things that we'll mention. They are important and they may have an effect on muscle growth and muscle retention. But assuming you're doing that right there, I mean, we could end the episode here and I'd be pretty comfortable, but because we like to delve a little bit deeper into things. But talk about the other two. So that being timing, Danny boy, do I need to have six small Tupperware containers, each with 25 to 30 grams of protein to max my muscle protein synthetic response throughout the day?

You personally, that's probably yes, because you.

Just need all the help, biking, all that, essentially. Boo.

Yeah, I'm just kidding. So, yeah, even for you, I'd say two meals a day is probably covering 99%. And three, probably ideal. But two, you're really covering your basis where I really wouldn't worry about getting any more than that if you're really having a hard time getting more meals and then two, or if getting that many meals is something that allows you to check another box. Like, you know that when you're dieting, two meals gets you in a deficit much better than three and so on. So basically, if you have a very good reason not to go to three, I'd say two is probably, you know, checking the box without having any sort of huge worry about losing muscle or not gaining the optimal amount of muscle, depending on the context that we're talking about. But one, you know, there are. There is some data, especially acute data, that suggests that you could even do a whole lot with one and not be risking too much. But I'm just not willing to make that recommendation at the moment, where I think you may be doing yourself a slight disservice by sticking with one. But two, I'm pretty comfortable with. But what are your thoughts on that?

No, I think. I mean, look, like you said, there's very limited longitudinal research looking at protein, like differential protein spacings throughout the day on. On muscle growth. I know there's. I know off the top of the dome, one study that found that an unequal protein distribution from breakfast until later in the day did ultimately yield less total growth. But I don't. They didn't do direct measures of hypertrophy. I don't believe it was all leaning tissue stuff. And it was just wasn't a, it wasn't a super robust study. The great study, but it's not a super robust study. And I think that's the closest thing we have as far as protein timing is concerned. And we generally do have to rely on mechanistic data here. Like, and I don't disagree with anything you said, I think if you want to hedge your bets, three is probably your safe bet. Two is honestly probably just fine because of the paper that you kind of alluded to there, which basically showed that a. The muscle protein synthetic response of a hundred grams of protein scaled to a hundred grams of protein from 25. So originally it was believed that 25 to 30 grams was the most that we were going to be able to synthesize into muscle tissue in one sitting of protein intake. But that just doesn't seem to bear out anymore. That being said, you're probably safe. Like you just, just if you're really trying to hedge your bets. Yeah, just do two feedings, maybe three if, if you really, if you really are neurotic about this kind of thing. But spacing, like we said, not nearly as important as actual amount of protein that you're consuming. So I think we're good on, on timing. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think you also don't want to be the weirdo taking your tuna fish sandwiches to, to class and opening it up in the Tupperware container or, or chicken breast that you cooked on Sunday and it's Friday and now you're, you're trying to get your. All of your optimal protein timings in. Right. Sorry, go ahead. If you had one more thing to add.

Yeah. There's just a lot of caveats with the acute data. Not, not even from the measures themselves, which the measures are obviously something that you can dive into, the different studies and how they measured mps and so on. But you also have to consider the context in which it was measured. There's been some data that showed that when you do full body resistance training versus just let's say upper body or just lower body, you can have a higher dose of protein, continue to increase the MP's response. And that kind of makes sense because.

More tissue demand of the, of the workout itself. Right.

And then you can also look at trained versus untrained. If you're an untrained individual, you have a higher capacity to add lean tissue. So obviously in the context of that, you're going to say, all right, they might be able to utilize more of that protein from the meal to actually add to muscle tissue. And then you get into the quality of the protein and, you know, the list goes on and on.

Where.

All right, what is that, where is that gram amount coming from? How quickly is it digested and so on. So there's a lot of things, things that people tend to not consider when looking at MPS data. How long, how far out did they measure the MPS response? Would it have continued? Would one of them have sort of plateaued and stayed up and then went down and the other one was on its way? So basically tons and tons of things that make you a bit more measured. When thinking about the acute data and the limitations that come with it. It's also exorbitantly expensive, which usually means less participants in the study and so on.

Yeah, not to mention the paper we just discussed, the 100 grams that showed linear increases. They had subjects lay down for 12 hours straight. Like, I'm pretty sure they were sitting in the room for like 12 hours. And they weren't allowed to leave so that they could continue tracing these amino acids through their blood and into the muscles and stuff. Which is just no wonder that they have to have short sample size or small sample sizes. Right. And just to piggyback off what you were saying, I think that that's actually probably one of the biggest problems plaguing America and just the entire world right now is people not recognizing the limitations of acute MPS data. I think once we, we figure that out, we can kind of end wars and conflict and, and, and things like that. And I think that's, I think that's a really, really salient point. Daniel, thank you so much.

All right, by the way, guys, if you're like me and want to maximize the time and effort you spend in the gym and with your diet, then you need to use a plan backed by the latest science. We have got an army of over one who are getting into the best shape of their lives using our science based training and nutrition methods. To join today, just head over to builtwithscience.com and take my quiz to find the best program for you and your body.

Last little point we'll talk about. And again, just to reiterate, not nearly as important as amount, but still something to consider and that is quality. Danny boy, is it true that vegans should just give up trying to get jacked? Because they're never going to be consuming complete protein sources in the day.

That's correct, I think.

Okay, well, thank you for listening to the Built With Science podcast. No, okay. But genuinely.

Yeah. So protein quality matters, but it doesn't matter nearly as much as we. We once thought. It seems like the vast majority of the evidence shows that if you consume a varied diet, even if it's a vegetarian diet, you can still maximize muscle growth. You just may need a bit more protein than your omnivorous counterpart. And even that is on somewhat shaky ground. But it seems to make sense from a mechanistic standpoint and what little, little evidence we have that you need more in order to really check that box if you're vegetarian but vegan, too. Vegan.

Just. I just want to. Because there is a. Obviously vegan vegetarians can get like, there's no. They can drink milk and eat eggs often, oftentimes. So no one cares about them. But vegans, you guys are locked into. When Danny Boyce says vegetarian here as well, I just wanted to clarify.

Yeah. So basically it comes down to two things. One, the amino acid profile. So is there adequate leucine? Slash other essential amino acids. Obviously vegetables tend to have less, but not always. So that's why it sort of gets murky because it depends on what the person's actually eating. And there's actually some vegan protein sources, especially if you're going to go with supplements. There's even some bacteria that produce whey, like compounds that allow you to essentially get a similar quality whey protein in a jug. So tons of things that you can do in order to even not necessarily require higher amounts of protein if you're supplementing adequately and whatnot. But if you're not going out of your way to supplement those sources, I would just go for, you know, instead of 1.6 to tick all those boxes, I might may go up to a gram per pound in order to really, really tick that box if you're vegan. But long story short, not super necessary to really fret about that if you're vegan or vegetarian. Just try to hit that total mark and get varied sources and you're probably going to be covering your bases.

Yeah, I mean, I don't even really have anything to add there. I think that was beautifully said. Um, okay, fine. Oh, I guess two more questions and then we'll. Then we'll wrap for the episode. One, is there an upper limit to the amount of protein? Like, does there seem to be, like, is there any reason, let's say you're not dieting. Is there any reason to go above a gram per pound of body weight? Like, is there any reason, like is there any reason to believe that maybe going up to a gram and a half per pound of body weight would be a little bit better than doing a gram per pound of body weight.

In the context of maintenance and surplus, I think that's very, very unlikely. So I think we have enough data to suggest that the benefit really plateaus at about a gram per pound of body weight. But like I said, because mostly absence of evidence kind of deal where there's a theoretical rationale and some weak evidence to suggest more is necessary in the.

Case of context of a diet.

Yep. Yeah, but I'm not willing to hang my hat on that just yet. So I'd say for the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people, it's not something to worry about because we're talking about marginal differences even in the deficit context where you're going to build all that back up once you come out of that deficit. I'm really not worried about it for any, anybody in the gen pop. If your career is holding on to as much muscle as possible, maybe, you know, play around with macros when you're in a deficit, see what you can tolerate from a protein standpoint, look at what your session quality is like when you manage those macronutrients and really try to push protein. But for me, I don't worry about it at all. Sometimes I'll even stick to that 1.6 even during a deficit because just increases my quality of life more and I'm not too chuffed about it. As our, I don't even know British.

Counterparts, I've never heard the word chuffed in my life, so I have no idea.

Don't you hang out with Milo and I?

I do, but they don't use words like chuffed, I can promise you that. Okay, but let's, let's say that in the context of those individuals who, whose career depends on muscle retention during a diet, right. Is there any reason for them to be scared from a health and longevity standpoint, from increasing protein above that one gram per pound. Like is there any reason to think that these high protein diets or high protein intakes over the long, the course of a, of a, of a lifetime could be detrimental to someone's health?

Yeah, I don't think that in those amounts it's very likely at all. There's some speculation about methionine and longevity and all that kind of stuff. I think that's all very weak evidence in that, you know, one gram per pound amount. I'm fairly comfortable in saying that if there is a detrimental effect, it's probably extremely minor from like a longevity other organ system standpoint. It's definitely not what other people or what people claim about like kidney burden and liver burden, so on. Those are all myths that have been put to bed for a really long time. And I'm much more worried about people maintaining quality muscle into their later ages than I am about the methionine hypothesis of longevity and those kinds of people who scream that from the rooftops. But on the other side of things is, is the, is there an amount that could create negative health outcomes? I would say that there probably is. That's true for everything. Right. So if you go, of course, crazy, too crazy, I probably wouldn't, you know, push 3 grams per pound for, for.

Your whole life, the course of a lifetime.

Yeah, exactly. It's probably not the best idea, but there are even, you know, eight week, 12 week studies that have pushed really, really, really high and found no differences in any sort of blood markers or inflammation markers, crp, things like that. But I'm definitely not willing to make the recommendation based on those shorter studies not showing any sort of adverse events. But by the same token, obviously we can't really say anything on the health side in terms, unfortunately, there's no 30.

Year long randomized control trials looking at low versus high protein intakes. Unfortunately.

And from a practical standpoint, I just don't think anybody would want or even probably could do that. Don't take this as a challenge. BWS list carnivores, I don't even think they're getting.

Probably not. Yeah, because they eat a lot of fat in their diet as well, so. So I doubt they're getting the three grams obviously per pound of body weight. All right. Anything else you want to say with respect to safety?

No, I think that's cool. Yeah.

Can wrap this up then. As always, thank you so much for listening to the Built With Science podcast. But before I do that, I will recapitulate quickly. Care about protein for a lot of reasons. Um, believe it or not, my, my meathead freaks out there. Muscle protein is more important than just building muscle and maintaining muscle at a deficit. But if those are the only things that you care about, like myself, then the boxes you need to make sure you're ticking are getting an adequate amount, which is just about 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight. If you're slightly overweight, you can do one gram per pound of ideal body weight. Right. One gram per centimeter of height is actually another one that's kind of fun and it actually kind of works out better than you might imagine.

Kind of crazy.

It's, it's wild. Timing and quality don't matter nearly as much. But make sure that if you, let's say you are eating, if you're omnivorous, don't worry about quality basically at all. If you are a vegan, just make sure you're getting a pretty wide variety of protein sources. You're not just quinoing your way to 1.6 grams per pound of body weight. And then with respect to timing two, maybe three protein intakes throughout the day is going to hedge your bets as as far as keeping that know NPS stimulus high throughout the day. Right. Okay. Anything else that I that I missed there on the recapitulation sounds good to me. Sweet. Thank you all so much for listening to the Built of a Science podcast. If there's a topic that we haven't covered that you'd like us to discuss, please reach out to us on Instagram at Built with Science. And as always, thanks for listening. Peace.