Bullyology - 'Conversations that Matter' - Daniella Cowen with Jessica Hickman

You're listening to Conversations That Matter with Daniela Cowan, every Friday at 5 here on Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 and 90.3, and also streaming on rnb.org.au and the TuneIn app. So I have someone in the studio with me, her name is Jessica Hickman, and she's from Bullyology, so she's the director and the founder of Bullyology. So Bullyology Bulliology works with changemakers in leadership to empower their organization to break the silence of bullying and empower people to speak up. So welcome, Jessica.

Thank you, and thank you for having me today.

Pleasure. So we're just gonna talk a little bit about what Bulliology is and what inspired you to create it. So first of all, like I obviously explained a little bit about what Bulliology is, but tell me anything more that you can share with us about Bullyology.

Yeah, so after suffering, um, extensive workplace bullying myself, I decided to use, um, the situation and turn it into a positive learning. And so I now dedicate my work to, uh, really highlight that workplace bullying is a major issue, not just here in Australia but globally. And I want to work, um, to try and prevent it and to help people speak up.

And what inspired you to start Bullyology? I know I've read a little bit about you. I know you a little bit as well. Yeah. What inspired you?

So really, I felt inspired. Not only did I suffer workplace bullying, but I needed to really highlight it because during my time I worked in Darwin and for 3 and a half years I worked in the resources industry.

Mm-hmm.

During this time, I identified a gap in mental health. And it was with men's mental health. There was rising suicides in the industry, so I went on a mission and to create and develop programs around culture change. So I became very successful in this. I was doing a lot of campaign work, I received multiple awards, had recognition from the media, and most importantly, um, got people to speak up about mental health and really broke down the stigma. So while this was going from success to success, yes, so behind the scenes I was actually suffering with extensive workplace bullying from someone in a power position. And this was really around the fact that he made it very quite clear that he didn't believe that women should be in the workplace. This was with a lot of sexist comments and really like derogatory comments as well. And also the fact that I was a female, so my gender automatically put me on the back foot. But I believed in freedom of speech, and I, you know, I campaign hard for equality, you know, gender equality and equality all around. And this really made him uncomfortable. So the more, you know, the campaigns and the mental health support, and the more people were speaking up as well, which sounds bizarre, and the more I was kind of becoming becoming powerful and a voice for the workforce, the more this made him uncomfortable. Um, so there was nothing I could have done. He really just disliked everything I was doing. Um, so behind the scenes this was ongoing, but I was able to be the face of the company and wear this mask where I was, you know, a strong, confident female that was, you know, standing up in front of hundreds of people speaking about men's mental health. But behind the scenes, I was a nervous wreck. Um, I'd go home and I'd have sleepless nights. And, you know, I really became this person, the face of the company, that really, you know, it's amazing how someone can perceive or look to be this certain way behind the scenes, be really suffering in silence.

And that's really like what we'll be talking about today is, um, that you don't need to suffer in silence. I think that's part of what Bullyology is, is being able to speak up. So you obviously found your voice.

Yeah.

And we'll be talking a little bit later as well about, you know, possible strategies that people can put in place. So, um, so, so on the surface you were, you know, advocating for equality and, um, you know, mental health and, you know, getting, getting power. And you were experiencing the more you did that the more this bullying happened, which is really fascinating. So in your process and in your journey of learning about all of this, like what did you have to face? Obviously it was a period of time, like from when you were like feeling like a victim to now, you've got your own, you know, organization or company or business and you're now speaking up. So what were the changes that happened for you to enable you to create this?

Yeah, so, um, the workplace bullying happened over a 2-year period, and there was times throughout that 2-year period, and for a long part of that, where I was completely, um, stuck because I could have easily walked away. And people that knew about it and were like, walk away. But because I was campaigning so hard for mental health, and with the rising rates of suicides, especially in the construction and resources industry, I could not walk away. So I put my own happiness aside Um, so I had— I couldn't change the environment. I made the choice not to, but I couldn't change my bully or the hostile or toxic, you know, nature environments. I had to change myself. So, um, that's where I've developed, um, my 5 steps for success from moving from survivor to thrivor.

Okay, well, okay, well, let's talk about your experience and then we can absolutely, um, yeah, talk about those steps. So what did you need to face with yourself, or what, yeah, what, what Yeah, definitely.

So with myself, um, yeah, I had to really, um, address how I was feeling and really look at, um, some solutions to help me. So that can be a lot of things around mindfulness as well, observing the environment and really putting strategies in place so I could get through each day.

And, and what were some of those strategies?

So some of them strategies were how I would become mindful of what was going on. I would separate myself from the environment. So I ideally became the observer of my own life. I would look at the situation from like a third-party bird's-eye view, right? And because for a long time I was consumed in the situation, and you know, every word or hurtful comment would just last 24 hours to a week, right? Wow. So I needed to separate myself from that. So another thing I would do is, I, you know, I would call it the protection. So I would put up a mirror when I could see the workplace bully coming towards me, and any negative comments, I would allow them to reflect back on him. I would call it like owning my own energy, like a mirror, like in your mind, not like you actually put up.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm so a mirror in my mind. So I would reflect it back. So I was using visualization techniques to protect myself. So, you know, I was calling it, I own my energy, I own my happiness. Why did this person deserve the right to, you know, really make me feel this way? So mindful strategies, of course.

Fantastic. And we can talk more about, um, some of those ways if anyone's dealing with, um, workplace bullying or bullying, other ways that they might be able to deal with it as well from your experience. So with Bullyology, so you know, that, um, creating this business. Um, and so tell us a little bit more about Bullyology, like if there's anything else to share around what that is.

Yeah, so when I stepped— I finally made the decision to step away from my position, um, I reported my workplace bullying, um, in excess of 32 times. And often, a lot of the time, I was told that I needed to toughen up. It was the type of industry. I was being too needy. And that really, I could not believe that I was being told and the door was closing in my face. I was not weak or needy, I was standing up in front of hundreds, even thousands of men talking about mental health. But, you know, toxic leadership is something that ruins workplace cultures, and while I wasn't directly bullied by the certain people that could have helped me or saved me as such, I guess they really didn't have the knowledge or expertise to understand how to deal with workplace bullying and the effects it can have, not only productivity but like the culture of the workforce. And it wasn't just me that was suffering the workplace bullying, it was the people I was helping as well, talking about mental health and the people coming to me and then having to tell me that they're being either bullied by this person or feeling the effects of the culture, you know, and it just really affects— excuse me— and, you know, the whole morale. So I decided to create Bullyology, um, and after I stepped away from the position, rather than just turn my back on the experience and forget about it, which, you know, people think I'm a little bit crazy at times because it was so painful. You know, I could have left and just closed the door. Um, but I'm going to really use this now with Bullyology to not only empower people to speak up, but really educate leaders and people that have the ability to be changemakers. And it really tells a lot about what I've learned over the last couple of months about what type of leader certain people are. If I contact people, or people often contact me via LinkedIn or, you know, the website, and, um, you know, they're open to even have a conversation with me. And then there are some doors that close in my face when I mention what I call the B word— bullying. Um, so Bullyology works with leaders and change makers who are willing to have these conversations and open the door and empower their workforce to speak up and prevent workplace bullying. Because, you know, it's not something that goes away overnight.

I can imagine, because it is, it is like a taboo word, isn't it?

Absolutely.

And I guess it is opening up the conversation around bullying. Why do you think— gosh, people are very resistant. I'm just thinking about it. People are very resistant to talking about bullying. And so why, what do you think needs to change there? Or why do you think there is such a resistance to going there?

I think it's a lot to do with companies don't want to face it because of the financial impacts of workplace bullying. It's like anything, when you put a label to something, it becomes real.

Of course.

And labeling things, yeah, has implications. Yes. So people just want to kind of avoid it. And from my experience, it was swept under the carpet. It's not bullying, it's not harassment, it's personalities.

Sure.

So, and that is something, you know, if someone has a certain personality and you're in a power position, it can be, um, maybe accepted as a form of leadership, which I think is very weak.

Absolutely. And you know, you are a woman. I can imagine you know, in some environments you are a woman and you're speaking up and saying this is not acceptable, you're finding your voice, and I'm sure, of course, in a male-dominated environment there would be that— there may be, obviously not in all circumstances, not all men, absolutely, but you know, in some circumstance like the one you were in, it's just like, let's— why do we need to talk about it? Is this just about emotions and feelings and like, you know, like what you're saying about it's just— it's a personality thing. And I think it's important for women and men, but you know, in this case, it's so important for women to speak up, find their voice, let others know what is and is not acceptable. I think the more people that speak up, the more— the stronger that becomes. And I think we are at a time where women are speaking up more, like women are finding their voice. And, you know, we'll talk a little later about what's going on in the States, just a little bit, maybe not what's going on, but how it relates to this. And how it relates to women finding their voice. What we're gonna do is we're gonna go to a song break. And when we come back, we're gonna chat more with Jessica Hickman about Bullyology and how to empower yourself or how to just a conversation more about— I'm gonna edit that out. When we come back from the break, when we come back from the break, we'll be talking more with Jessica Hickman about Bullyology. You're listening to Conversations That Matter with Daniela Cowan, every Friday at 5 here on Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 and 90.3, and also streaming on rnb.org.au and the TuneIn app. I've been speaking with Jessica Hickman from Bullyology. Thank you for continuing this conversation with us.

Thank you.

And I thought we would just go into very simply what is bullying for those that are listening. So how do you define bullying or what was your experience of bullying?

Yeah. So when I was actually going through the difficult times, I wish I had the knowledge I had now to construct really in my mind what bullying was. Um, for me it just felt like, um, I was singled out and I knew some of the actions, um, that my bully was doing was really not appropriate at all. Um, so the best advice I had was to, you know, document what was actually happening to me daily. Sure. Because at the time it just felt like something that I would just want to forget about. When I started documenting it, I could really see the pattern of, wow, this is really happening to me. So like, some of the, you know, the things that really stand out for me was To me, the physical element of what the intimidation— so it would be like getting in my personal space, coming up close to me. One time I had a folder thrown at me.

Oh goodness.

Yeah.

It's a very obvious sign of bullying.

Yeah. You know, nudging my chair and just really, I think, taking me away from the office environment out outside to talk to me and then like intimidate me and just make me feel uncomfortable. Um, that really was the physical element of it, but it was mainly the, the mental. So it was kind of like mind games, making me feel, um, that I was doing something wrong by doing this kind of the Mental Health and the Culture program, making out that I was actually— I'm doing it for my own benefit because you know, there was certain comments about how I was doing it to benefit me because I wanted to, um, create attention to myself from the workforce and the men, and some a lot more inappropriate things. Yeah, it was attack on my appearance, um, and just kind of making me feel low self-esteem. For a period of time, I stopped wearing makeup because there was comments that I was, you know, only being successful in certain elements because of the way I looked. So I tried to make myself look less uglier, sorry, more uglier. So, and I was still getting success and traction. So, you know, it's, it's crazy how the, the mind games can really affect you. Wow. I would get like tauntes, inappropriate, like kind of like jokes, right? Sarcasm. And in meetings You know, when I would speak, I'd be really nervous. Um, and you know, I'd be in like a manager's meeting as such and he would, um, he would snigger and laugh and just really make me feel uncomfortable. And you know, and there was the direct things he would say to me, um, to put me down in front of other people. Um, so there was a lot of mental—

It's interesting what you keep saying, and it made you feel uncomfortable. I wonder if that might be the definition of bullying is obviously it's not anything that someone does to make you feel uncomfortable, but I think it sounds like that is an experience like that made you feel uncomfortable.

Yeah.

And I'm sure it's interesting with bullying because I don't— I think sometimes we question ourselves. I'm sure people question themselves like, is that bullying? Is that just me? Like, should I, should I? Like you said, you reported it 34 times.

Yeah, 32 times.

32 times, right? It's amazing that like 32 times, that's— and over what period of time?

And that was over a 2-year period, and that was 32 times I documented, but the conversation was open continuously. Everyone knew it was going on, and it became the norm.

It became the norm, which often happens in workplace cultures, doesn't it?

And just on what you said there, you know, the definition of bullying is not something that happens once or maybe twice. This was continuous every day, and, you know, just yesterday I opened up my diary to look back on it, um, and as a reflection, and I just could not believe that every day that I had, you know, 3 or 4 incidents. Wow. Or comments that really were inappropriate.

Yeah. And what was your mental health like at that point?

Um, I actually was logging the fact and my feelings, and some of the things that I actually wrote in that period, um, really upset me.

Really?

Yeah. Um, you know, you know, I threw myself on the ground as I walked through the door. How would I survive another day of this? You know, and the fact that was hard for me was I was living on the other side of the world from my family, so I really was, while I had some really good friends around me that supported me and my housemates who were like my rock, it got to the point where I stopped phoning home and telling my family or wanted to bother my housemates because it's uncomfortable when you come home from a long day and your housemate is crying or anxious or you know, really in a state at the fact that they have to go back to work the next day and how will they pull through.

Right. Wow. So great that you documented that time. And is that something you'd recommend for people that are going—

Absolutely.

—feel like they might be being bullied, to document what you're going through? Yeah.

And I would recommend that you document fact and the feeling for yourself, because where I went wrong when I was reporting it, I would go in with the feeling and the emotion and 'You know, the person that is actually receiving this complaint from you, they're not actually feeling what you're feeling.' Right. I needed to have fact, and, um, yeah, that, that came afterwards, the fact. But for a long period of time, it was just me, you know, seeing as an emotional woman as such.

Tough enough. Oh, that's so uncomfortable. And it's— I think a lot of it can be then disregarded because, because of that. So it is important to get the facts. And, and also, like, I think That's a really big one in our culture, this thing of, "Oh, she's just emotional." Yeah. And to get your power with that, like for people to get their power with around that, to own their power and to be able to speak up like, yes, they may be feeling emotional. Yes, because something was done and yes, they need to speak up. Absolutely. And that's not just with workplace bullying, that might be anything that's going on when someone's overstepping your boundaries and you feel uncomfortable and you suspect that, you know, you need to say something. It's important to go to kind of get that story in our mind that goes, I'm just being emotional, or people won't listen to me, and to actually speak up. So that's so fantastic. So, you know, I was, I was looking on your website yesterday actually, and I did see the stats, and I saw that the statistics of workplace bullying and just all the statistics, they're different to what people think they would be. There's more of it going on. So what did you feel or what was your experience when you got the statistics?

[Speaker] Yeah, I really wish I had seen the stats, you know, when I was going through it, but I didn't actually. I was so in the moment of trying to kind of survive day by day. It wasn't something where I got external help as such, or even researched into it. I felt like I was very much alone. It was me, you know, fighting this feeling to survive each day and help other people. And it was only after, you know, in the recent last couple of months when I decided to kind of switch from that survivor to thrivor mode, but I really started researching it and seeing, wow, this is a global epidemic, workplace bullying and, you know, harassment, and even, you know, gender inequality. Is just, it's just a massive subject that I kind of, I'm stepping into. Sure. And yeah, there's a lot of information out there and a report, and I've got some of the stats on my website.

Yeah. So yeah, it's, um, it is much bigger. And I think a lot of it, I mean, how would they have the statistics? I can imagine though, because a lot of people wouldn't be reporting it. But like, yeah, like it does span across all cultures. And like you were saying in the break, and, um, Yeah, I can imagine with male and females. Obviously you experienced it as a female and part of your gender was a part of the discrimination or the bullying, wasn't it? Yes. So how were you bullied as a woman, as a female, like how, like in terms of, or discriminated against as a female?

Yeah. So some of the discrimination came around obviously the way I looked in a male environment. Dominated environment as such.

And, um, yeah, quite a male from— yeah, very male dominated.

So, you know, when you're working in the mining or the oil and gas or construction, you kind of would stand out as a female. Sure. And, um, yeah, certainly, you know, I don't believe that I'm— I'm, you know, young and ambitious as well, and my personality and kind of bubbly personality really came across. So I'm not the one that would kind of like slip under the net as such. And I think that was used as well against me in some ways because I was— became the face of the company as such. But come— some comments would come as, you know, you're only successful because of the way you look, or, you know, ah, you've won this award not because of, you know, the amazing program or the people you helped with the mental health support, it's because you look a certain way. They obviously 'Fancy you.' That was what— that was something that was commonly thrown across. Um, so yeah, that was something. And also, you know, it was a point of, um, a point of weakness because as a female, um, you know, as a male or female, having your appearance attacked continuously, um, really is a form of knocking down your confidence. So, you know, getting told you, you know, you look a certain way, or, you know, if you've got makeup on, you know, having comments thrown at you that you're just doing it to look easy, you know, some of the different things. Or so inappropriate. Yeah. Or, you know, stop pandering to the workforce if you're helping them when they're going through crisis. Gotcha. Wow. Um, so yes, there's some of the things. And something to touch on as well is, you know, Equality with pay. Yes. That is something that is not— how can I put this? It's an issue. Yes.

Yeah, because I know what you were saying in the break, that you were— yes, that the pay that you were receiving was different because you were a female.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. That was something that was an issue for me, and I was told that, um, yeah, you're, you're earning enough money type thing, right? And there was also, um, you know, something to take in consideration with regards to promotion and women progressing in the workforce. There's the imaginary, um, glass ceiling that when you get to a certain age, you know, I'm by no means old or young, I'm kind of, I'm 28. You're ageless. Yeah, you're only as old as you feel, right? Right. Um, But, you know, kind of the presumption and comments from people who don't believe that women should be in the workplace, for one, it's, you know, why are you not married? You know, why are you not, you know, starting a family? And it was just so inappropriate. You know, people make their own choices, you know, whether it's career, family, or both. That when they do that is their decision. They shouldn't have to you know, discuss that or even give justification for your life choices.

I love that women like you are speaking up now. I just love it. I'm just so happy. And everything that's going on in the States, what's died down a little bit now, but I think they're outing more people with Harvey Weinstein. And now there's more, you know, men in positions of power where women are finally speaking up. I think it's gathering momentum now. It's so great that women are like, it's not okay, it's not appropriate. I'm so happy that this is happening. I feel like there's a massive shift happening with women finding their voice. I'm sure some women will, you know, use it in the wrong way, I'm sure, but like generally, I think it's such a positive thing. So thank you for being one of those women that is standing up on behalf of all, you know, everyone. And I think the intention is that all women find their voice. It's not about, you know, being like, you know, saying it in a loving way, but like, this is my boundary. This is what's acceptable. You know, I demand, we demand equality, which is so important. I really do believe that. I don't know if this is a controversial comment, controversial is the right word, but like, we really do train people how to treat us. Like, we, people will treat us how we accept. So if we go, this is not 'Okay, anymore, this is not appropriate,' especially if the culture's ready for it, things will change, things will happen. So, and what have been your thoughts around what's been happening in the States? Like you've started Bullyology, which is to empower people.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think the biggest game changer for me was the Me Too campaign that hit social media and even on, you know, my Facebook. Book and newsfeed, I kind of started seeing all these women that I've known for a long time starting to speak up, and I couldn't help but feel empowerment around that. Um, but even starting Bullyology and, you know, breaking my fear— I lived in constant fear for a long time. It became, you know, my second nature, nature being afraid and in fear. Um, and then the minute I decided, no, this is not okay, I'm you know, I'm going to speak up, I'm gonna do Bullyology. The amount of people around me and people that have contacted me that are like men and women from all different cultures that are, you know, whether it's here in Australia or, you know, as you can tell by my accent, I'm from Wales, you know, contacts in America and, you know, all around the world, people are contacting me and like, this is happening to me, this has happened to me, and I'm like, wow, you know, this is just really empowering. And my thoughts on, you know, even the America breaking out with it, you know, coming out and people speaking up— I think like once Pandora's box is open, there really is no way of going back. And even if it takes, you know, my last breath of air, being one of them people that is actually breaking through the fear and willing to speak up, if I can help and empower even one person, you know, it's It's worth it.

Okay, great. All right, let's go to another song break and when we come back we'll talk more with Jessica. You're listening to Conversations That Matter with Daniela Cowan every Friday at 5 here on Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 and 90.3 and also streaming on rnb.org.au and the TuneIn app. I've been speaking with a very, very lovely woman, Jessica Hickman from Bullyology. Thank you for continuing this conversation. No, thank you. And we've been having a really interesting chat about bullying and especially workplace bullying and also about how women are finding their voice more and more, which I think is awesome. It's about time. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, you, you were just surviving in your, in your work. You were 2 years working in a very male-dominated industry, experiencing bullying. 32 times you reported that bullying. Yeah. So you were very much surviving. You talked about the impacts on your mental health and how you just didn't know if you could go another day. And now you're thriving, or what you call, you know, you went from survivor to thriver. So what were the steps that you took to get from survivor to thriver? Yeah.

Okay, so, um, yeah, I kind of wanted to, um, talk around as well about, you know, how it went from the survivor to thrivor. Like you said, um, I needed to kind of become the master of my own mind and protect my energy and space, um, in a hostile, toxic environment, right? Um, so I touched briefly on earlier, um, of how I became the observer of my own life. So I was I had to detach myself, feeling-wise, because I was becoming too emotional at work. Every comment that was passed to me for a while, I would burst into tears or hide in the toilet. Right. So I needed to detach myself because I needed to be this face to represent people and be a strong character as such. You know, I was there talking about mental health and encouraging people to come to me to get them the support they needed. So by becoming the observer, I became the third-party observer, so I would look down on the situation, note what was going on, and yeah, detach emotionally from it, and then I would kind of document it, which leads me on to, you know, I became the documenter. Yes. Which needed to be more, looking back, more fact-based. I would strongly recommend if anyone is going through workplace bullying to get a diary and, you know, only document, you know, the date, the time, exactly what was said, but witnesses— who was there? And, um, it became crucial to me to document who was actually there as a witness. Yeah, because a lot of the time it's just you claiming it and you can be seen as emotional when you actually say, and people were there, it becomes the proof.

It was really taking back your power doing that as well. Yeah, absolutely. And validating, validating the experience, I think, as well. Because oftentimes, like I was saying before, when it's emotional, you kind of think, oh, is it just me? Am I being overemotional? But documenting it and all that information, it's so powerful.

Yeah, great. Definitely. And even, and like I said, I detach from my feelings, but it's important to acknowledge and recognize what you are going through. And so, you know, in my diary then, I would do a section of how I actually felt, like a journal and a self-reflection. And I, you know, a lot of the time I was in this— I was consumed by it. So, you know, bad moments or comments rolled out into bad days, which rolled into bad weeks, which rolled into being numb for months. And really, um, by journaling it, and at the end of the day, um, really looking at what was good for— from the day. So I had to kind of shift my mindset as well from being consumed in negativity. I was starting to look at, you know, gratitude because it became my life. It became— every conversation I seemed to have, you know, was, I was so hurt looking back. Anything— I couldn't see anything good. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I think, yeah, that's so true. Like, the more that you focus on what's not working, the more you'll see what's not working. And not to invalidate when the experiences where you are being bullied, but I think, yes, it's like you start to look at your whole life like there's nothing good going on, but there are plenty of moments. [Speaker:JESSICA_HICKMAN] Yeah, for sure. [Speaker:ELIZABETH] You know, whether you have a really great conversation with someone or you walk through a park, you know, there's so many things to be grateful for. And I find that very like nourishing and it fills my cup back up. So that's fantastic.

[Speaker:JESSICA_HICKMAN] Definitely, so, you know, document, fact and feeling, because if you need to do, you know, going forward, if you needed to report it, for example, the fact is going to be very important for you. And then earlier I touched on what I called the protector. So imagining a mirror was protecting me up in front of me, so when any nasty comments were coming towards me, they would reflect back. I'd own my own energy and my happiness. I also used to imagine that I had a shield like a warrior, and the comments were actually arrows, and they were shooting at me, and I was rising my shield. I love that one. To stop, yeah, to stop the arrows affecting, because I had a large deep wound, I would imagine, and every time a nasty comment came at me, this wound would open up. And so it was time to put the shield up and let the wound and the hurt start to heal from the inside out. Yes. And then I imagined myself and I would become the researcher. So this was crucial for me, um, of getting advice. So I started to have a look at policies and procedures and research organizations that can support women. And the NT Working Women's Center was a great supported me. They give me free advice and really, um, confirmed what I was going through was not only discrimination but harassment and bullying. Because when you're carrying it for a long time, you start second-questioning yourself. Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with so many— relates to so many things.

But yes, sorry, keep going. Yeah, so really having someone of expertise and, you know, I can remember after my first meeting, they emailed me, um, just outlining what I'd said and said, this is the worst case of bullying and harassment we've actually seen. Um, and that to me was like a weight had been lifted. It's not me. I'm not going insane. This is not acceptable. What is happening to me is not acceptable, and I'm not going to stand for it anymore. Um, so that was the time when I decided as well that I needed to research some help and healing. So I qualified, quantified it in my mind, or qualified that this, this isn't normal, so I'm gonna get help. The best thing I'd done was call the Employee Assistance Programme. I would refer colleagues to it continuously, but I hadn't actually used it myself. I guess it was out of pride because I was the face of the person that should be strong, and I called up that and I I arranged 6 sessions and I had conversations and, you know, I learned a lot from that as well. I learned how to kind of, you know, guard myself and really set my boundaries for what's not acceptable. Great. Um, so yeah, and then obviously I became the Changemaker, what I qualified, you know, breaking down the barriers and really empowering other people.

Fantastic.

So quickly run through those again, just the, the So the Observer, the Protector, the Documenter, the Researcher, and the Changemaker. So there's a lot more behind them all, but that's kind of an overview of how I actually survived.

[Speaker:ELIZABETH] And the Researcher one is a really interesting one because when we're having experiences with anything, whether that's, you know, if we're in a situation with a, you know, in a relationship with someone and how they're treating us is not, it just doesn't feel right. It's like not quite right, but we're not sure. We've got nothing to compare it against. I think researching is such an important thing for us to do so just so we know we're not alone, that it is valid how we're feeling. I think it arms us with a lot of power, not power to use against someone, but power for our own experience and validating our own experience. I think the researching one really stood out to me. So that's great. And, you know, what do you find like with people just before we finish finish up. Actually, let's see, um, you know what we'll do? Any last things you want to, um, say to those that are listening? Like any, any parting words? Yeah, you want to share?

So I really just want to tell people that your happiness is the most important gift you can give yourself, and no one else deserves the right to take that away from you. I felt like I was on hold for 2 years of my life And the moment I decided to walk out of that workplace because I was not getting the support I need, I didn't want to be the face of a company with toxic leadership. And it's so important. And if there are leaders out there, CEOs of companies and changemakers, open the door to this subject and really, you know, lead by example of how you are the type of leader that people want to work for. And you empower your workforce and the results speak for themselves.

Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you so much. I've been speaking with Jessica Hickman from Bullyology. Thank you for joining me and having this conversation. Thank you. That's all from me for today's show. I'm Daniela Cowan and you've been listening to Conversations That Matter every Friday at 5 here on Radio Northern Beaches 88.7 and 90.3. Catch you next time.