Bullyology Podcast Episode 1 - Healthy Habits with Martin Silva

Hey guys, so I am here with a new guest today and she goes by the name of Jessica Hickman and she runs her own company which goes by the name of Bullyology. And I actually met her in the gym where I'm based in, in Sydney, and it turns out she is from Wales, which is, you know, 15,000 miles away. She's from the same country as me, the land of my fathers, right? So it's great to actually, um, to have someone on the podcast from Wales for the first time. But also, she has a very, very gripping story behind her, and she's making some— she's making a huge impact on, uh, in the space of mental health and, uh, bullying and stuff like that, obviously in the work environments and with children. So Anyway, um, how you doing today, Jess?

Hey, I'm really well. Thank you very much.

Good. So can you just tell the listeners a little bit more about your story, please?

Yeah, of course. So, um, I'm from Wales, as you just mentioned. Came to Australia in 2013, like a lot of people from Wales. Young, ambitious backpacker.

Damn right.

Um, yeah, age 23. Um, my background in the youth, um, in the UK was youth work. So I've been running a lot of mental health and youth-based programs in the UK. At 23, I needed a career break, obviously. So look, I came for 3 months, and 6 years later, I'm still here. But during my time here, even though it's been one of the best experiences of my life, and Australia is home, it has also been one of the most challenging. And that was suffering 3 and a half years' worth of workplace bullying. So no one prepared me when I was younger and told me that when you step into the workplace, you may suffer extensive bullying. And as an adult, it's kind of a hard thing to admit that I did suffer bullying. And yeah, so I picked up a job in Darwin in the oil and gas industry. First day on the job, I was sat in induction. My position was HR, brilliant opportunity. I went from being a backpacker to suddenly being in this high-paid job, company car, an apartment, you know, working at a corporate before I was sent to Darwin. So, you know, everything seemed perfect. But day one in that induction, the buzzword was suicide. And unfortunately, it was men in construction industry in Australia. There's a really high rate of suicide. So yeah, look, that shocked my system and I couldn't stop thinking about it. So I decided to make it my mission during my time on that project to really work on mental health programs. So I was going from strength to strength, winning lots of awards, being portrayed positively in the media for my culture programmes, and more importantly, you know, people were using the mental health programme. But behind the scenes, I was suffering extensive workplace bullying. My HR manager didn't like the success or kind of the popularity that I was getting. So my life on the outside was perfect, but behind the scenes, I was really at my lowest point.

Wow. Yeah, so I'd just like to ask you, uh, delve a little bit deeper into that because you mentioned about mental health being, you know, it's pretty much an epidemic right now. And, you know, it's rife. And I think the stats are pretty crazy. I think 1 in 2 people here in Australia will suffer from some form of, whether it's depression or anxiety or any mental health ailment, at some point in their life. And I believe 1 in 5 people are currently struggling with this silent killer, I call it, you know. Um, and yeah, so based on your experience, you know, with the, uh, with what you experienced in, in, in Darwin— not, not without going too much into the bullying stuff just yet, but just from the projects you were working on— you said you observed that it was quite a problem, mental health. Yeah. So how— what were the first kind of indicators for you? How did you start noticing that? Was it obvious or was it something you started picking up on in other ways?

Both really. On day one in the induction, we were told that mental health was rife in the industry, especially with men in construction. And that sparked an interest in me to kind of, as part of my role, really explore why aren't mental health concerns and issues reported in males and in particular in the construction industry. The industry I was working in was a fly-in fly-out industry. So in Australia, it's really common. People will fly 4 hours away and live on camps, a month on, a week off. And that's certainly what the workforce I was working with was doing. And that comes with a long stream of consequences, I guess. When you're living in a confined environment away from your family and friends for periods of time, not only are you doing high-risk work trades, scaffoldings, welding, and obviously working in Darwin in Crocodile Country, you know, it's got extreme weather conditions, it's very hot and humid, there's two seasons which is hot and really hot, hot and wet, so you know, it was a really tough environment for anyone and obviously when guys in particular are living in big camps, I think, and especially in like their confined, they call them dongas, which are small rooms, you know, small tiny rooms, probably as big as this studio we're in, you become lonely and guys close off. Not only are you knocking off from your shift, you know, and there's only the kind of thing to do is alcohol when you're on holidays or tour with the boys, the boys' clubs, men sit around and have sometimes many, too many beers and, you know, that spirals where people are away from home, the communication was pretty poor. So on the flip side, and you know, I do say men in particular in this because that was the majority of men I was working with, you know, the wife's at home with a partner running the household, probably working a full-time job, looking after the kids, relationships are strained, and obviously then when you go home from your month on the oil and gas plant, you know, sometimes dad is a stranger and family life is disrupted. Not only does the mum or dad, you know, one who kind of say, "Hey, look, here's the kids, it's my time to take a break now, I've been running the house," and often the person that returns from that high intensive labour just wants to go to the pub or gamble or drink. So there were so many relationships that I seen fall apart and, you know, me working on there 60 hours a week, 60, 70-hour weeks in this high environment, you know, high-risk environment, it is tough. And there was times when I was just really questioning my own mental health, and that was aside from the bullying. Yeah, you know, it is tough physically and mentally on the body, and that obviously causes some long-term effects.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I'd just like to talk a little bit more before we go into exactly what happened through your, you know, um, suffering essentially is what it was. How do you actually— how do you define bullying? Like, how would you explain to the listeners how— because there must be different levels for a start. And, you know, I believe, you know, like harassment, for example, or assault could maybe be one, just one thing which happens, one occasion which someone, you know, they struggle with, and, you know, they have to— they have to— it's traumatic for them in one way or another. But then bullying, I guess, is more of a continuous kind of emotional and mental, as well as sometimes physical, as in your case. So anyway, just to cut it short, how would you define bullying, you know, in the work environment anyway, and even maybe in, in a children's environment?

It's a really important topic, and that's what I really focus on, on my— within my work, is what is bullying and what is not bullying. So bullying is repeated and it's intentional, with the intent to to harm the other person, whether it's psychological, physically, mentally, you know, it is intentional and it is repetitive. It's an ongoing campaign to belittle the other person. So if you do fall out with someone at work or your neighbour or kids fall out all the time, I think we're quick, especially parents, to jump on at the school or, you know, flip out that my kid is being bullied or, you know, I'm being bullied, especially in the workplace if you're being performance managed, for example, people often cry that they're being bullied And so it's important to know that, you know, people do fall out and if it's once or twice or you argue or disagree, because as humans we do that, that's not necessarily bullying. Bullying is repeated, intentional, and, you know, repetitive. It's continual, it's attacks ongoing all the time.

Yeah, and I was just gonna say on that, on that note, with the actual bullying side of it, with kids, for example, yeah? So when I was, I remember when I was a kid, I was getting bullied at one point when I was really young. And then my stepdad at the time told me— my mum was always, you know, tell the teachers and do it, do it the right way kind of thing, and that wasn't working. So then my stepdad at the time, you know, as guys kind of— the way guys want to solve it, he said just to hit the guy back. So I hit him back and I got done then. The teachers, um, teachers weren't happy that I hit someone obviously, but it temporarily solved the situation. I wasn't— I didn't get bullied by the guy ever again anyway. But obviously I know that's not the right way to go about it, right? So What I'm trying to get at is, as a, as a parent— I know you're not a parent, but you know, you've obviously spoken, dealt with a lot of this— as a parent, how would you think it— they, they, you know, what's the best kind of methods do you think for them to use for their kid who is potentially getting bullied?

Yeah, so it's going to be around education. It's about equipping youths with resilience and understanding coping mechanisms as well. So for me personally, like, I never expected the bullying to happen, so I wasn't equipped with it and I wasn't able to even identify that I was being bullied, even as an adult. And for parents, it's important to have them conversations from a young age to say, like, this is— if you are being bullied, this is what you need to do. And, you know, we do want them to tell a teacher, but often kids don't want to be called, like, cleck, as we call it in Wales, or grassing. But, you know, building that strong relationship with your child so they can trust you. And I think trust comes with not reacting or overreacting reacting to the situation. Like, you've told your parents, yeah, and obviously you've told your stepdad. And kids often are frightened to tell their parents because, you know, the stepdad or the dad, the mum, whoever can run around and knock on that door of that child. I remember when, um, I was younger and one of the boys in school kicked me down the stairs, you know, just messing around. And my dad went around, and I remember very clearly, I was awfully embarrassed. My dad went around there banging his dad's door, you know, boys can't kick girls. And I can remember, you know, no one was messing with me after that. Yeah, but kids can be frightened of their parents reacting and also making the situation worse, especially in teenagers. They get really embarrassed. So look, you want to build that mutual trust and have a cool collective approach, not rush down the school, kind of collect the facts, ask your child, is it repeated? Is this ongoing? And often parents react and run down the school and often become bullies themselves, kicking off at the teacher, shouting at, you know, at the teacher. So it's important to kind of like have that conversation that they can trust you and they'll come to you again and report different stuff.

Oh, great. So yeah, I kind of jumped the gun a little bit, but yeah, it'd be good if you could give the audience more of an insight into exactly what happened in your situation with the bullying. And yeah, just, you could just run through the whole kind of process, if you don't mind?

Yeah, it's a big long process. I have got a book out, um, it's called The Bullyologist: Breaking the Silence on Bullying, and that kind of really dives deep into the nitty-gritty of the story. But look, day one of my bully being promoted to manager, he'd kind of seamlessly fitted into the workforce before that. He'd been brought in as a manager on a different part of kind of the project I was on, so I had had connection with him, I trained him etc. He'd kind of built a relationship with me over the 12 weeks he was there, knew a lot about me and obviously had been observing me because day one when he was promoted to be HR manager, he pulled me into the office and kind of threatened me, asked me did I want to work for him and if not there would be the door, he would get his own staff in and it took me by surprise. It then went on to kind of not really understand how I'd be successful so accused me of flirting flirting with people, spreading rumors about me, asking me to do untoward tasks, which was creating fake Facebook accounts to stalk the men. He was awful paranoid when people were off sick. So the kind of requests to do inappropriate things, which was unethical outside of my job role, asking me to go over to certain conversations and listening to what they're doing to then accuse me of, yeah, just being unprofessional. He started to question my competency. I would then question kind of some of the things that he was doing. So for me, I had a big focus on culture and providing a nurturing workplace. His mentality was that if someone isn't competent to do their job, whether they're suffering personal or mental health issues, to manage them out of the workforce, other words, sack them. So for me, that kind of heavy-handed management approach to dealing with sensitive topics, we clashed heads. So the bullying went on for 3 and a half years to the point where it escalated to him physically throwing a file at me. There would be me and 6, 7 other managers in a room at a time, and he would downgrade me, kind of swear under his breath, a long list of things where in the end the other managers would say, hey, you two, can you stop arguing? You know, it's a personality clash. So So I knew then to a certain point that this really wasn't okay, especially when I was noticing him bullying other people, and eventually we started to lose good people because of his behaviour. And me being the person I am, I still done my job to a high standard till eventually I ended up in a hospital bed in 2017 where I had a major anxiety attack at work which crippled me to the point where they thought my appendix had ruptured. And it was at that low point on the other side of the world from friends and family where I realized enough is enough. This company has promised me protection countless times. And now my own physical health, not only mental health, has really taken a tumble for the worst. And that was the point where I had to leave.

And how long into your— how long were you actually working there at this point before you decided to leave?

3 and a half years.

3 and a half years.

Of pure commitment. You know, I was super successful. I was on every poster and every magazine. You know, I was volunteering time to go around the 32 other companies on this large oil and gas construction site, helping and mentoring their other staff to create this culture. And I felt like a fraud. I would put my mask on every morning or hide behind my mascara shield and go and be this strong, resilient female helping everyone else with their mental health and referring people on to Oz Health Foundation, which I'm lucky enough to do work with now. But, you know, I was literally— just felt like a fraud, and I'd take that mask off when I got home at night and I was just a quivering mess. Developed symptoms close to PTSD where I was having nightmares, and my bully not only threatened to obviously get me sacked, But I was on a visa, so I was frightened not only I would be pushed out of my company, but pushed out of the country I'd built a home in. And also frightened that if I left, someone I cared about would end their life with no management support. Hmm.

So, so yeah, so your role then, you were actually an advocate and you were actually helping people with some of the guys there and stuff with mental health issues. Yeah. And so you, so run through what your main role was and, just give us a little bit more info on like the people you were helping and stuff and, you know, how kind of commonplace was it for guys to come to you and stuff like that, if you don't mind?

[Speaker] Yeah, so when I first started as HR, I spent the first 6 months just building relationships. So when I mobilized the project, I was in charge of recruiting every person that came through that project, went through an induction run by me where I would kind of talk around mental health. I threw a few slides together. I really wanted to draw on my youth work background to bring kind of a culture and relationship focus. And through my research in that first 6 months, you know, there was— it was confirmed that there was a stigma reporting mental health to management and HR in particular. So I fought really hard to change my position title to Culture Coordinator, and that kind of took the stigma away. Same position, just doing the extra culture work. And we also then partnered with a lot of other organisations where we would bring people in and also raise a lot of money for OzHelp Foundation, who do a lot of work in suicide intervention and prevention. So what I did was I built relationship with the workforce so that they could trust me, and I also developed kind of strategies that the mental health wouldn't have to go through the supervisors and managers. They could use like a buzzword or call me there and I could then refer them directly on to the mental health providers to provide that support. That took a lot of pressure off people because men in particular don't want to talk about their relationship issues or, you know, some of them had drug addiction, alcohol, which they were drug and alcohol tested at random. So people needed to have a confident person, like confidence in a person that could help them. And I did establish myself as that. You know, I was known throughout the whole job site and I was frequently called speak at CEO conferences in oil and gas, and that's why it came as a shock to everyone when I eventually broke my silence. But it also worked against me because I was so frightened of kind of showing what was really happening to me because I thought it could potentially break trust if people— I was able to be a high-functioning person that suffered with mental health behind the scenes. I didn't want to show vulnerability and that eventually led to me laying in a hospital bed. If only I had— I had so many relationships with mental health experts and the people on the project. No one's seen it coming. So that's why my message is super important, that people can still be high achievers, you know, in the media, sports, sports professionals, you know, celebrities. But behind that kind of mask, you can just be a mess.

Yeah, it's mind-blowing actually. I only found out recently that the leading cause of death, pretty much, if I've got this right— correct me if I'm wrong— is, is now suicide, pretty much, in young adults. And also the leading cause of disability in young adults now. This is like a global thing now, especially in westernized countries, you know, UK, US, and Australia. Um, it's the leading disability of— it's a lead— it's the leading disability now in adults, mental health. And that surpasses all you know, physical problems, you know, diabetes, chronic illness. So it's on the rise, and as I said, it is an epidemic now. And there still is a lot of stigma attached to it, more so with men though, as you say. But that's not to say there's not stigma attached to women as well. But as I've talked about to the listeners before, I actually experienced my own issues with mental health problems as well when I was younger. This is probably going back like 7 or 8 years, went on for a good year and a half and I had, uh, depression. Really, it started off as anxiety because, um, it was like an obsessive thought pattern, which is actually more common than what I thought it was. It was— they said it was like intrusive thoughts, and it was stemmed from potentially like a bereavement that I went through when I was younger. Who knows exactly how it came about. Um, there's other pressures which could cause it, but I had that problem and it was, you know, it was, it was horrible. But thankfully, as I've said before on this podcast, I had my mum and my sister who I'm really close with, and I actually talked about it. And I think that is so important to actually speak up, to just to actually talk to anyone about, even if it's going for a coffee with someone, like whether it's a close mate or a family member, just one person I think is so important. And that definitely helped me get through it. I was on the verge of of taking antidepressants at one point, and I didn't end up doing it. I've kind of, kind of fought it off. I just thought it would be, it would be a bad idea to do it. And then luckily I had some CBT then as well. We'll talk a bit more about different behavioral methods, uh, behavioral methods and stuff soon because I read that, uh, some of that in your book. But yeah, CBT really helped me as well, seeing a counselor and doing the cognitive behavioral therapy. And yeah, and then, and then, you know, I got through it and And then, uh, I'm sure it made me strong as a person afterwards, but most people are not fortunate enough to, to, to pull through it like that. And I just wanted to talk a bit more about your experience with depression and anxiety. And you said you were with that company for 3 years. At what point did the depression and anxiety kick in?

I know you said you were hospitalized, but yeah, it's hard really for me to kind of put my, my finger on the exact time it happened because I suppressed it for so long. And being the person I am, I was kind of like on this outside, this fun, bubbly party girl of the weekend. So for me, kind of, and only now I'm really conscious of looking back of how I managed that. Like on the weekend, I'd work, I'd finish on a Saturday afternoon and I would literally grab a glass of wine and then go out on a Saturday night, you know, in Darwin, it's pretty party scene, but I would always kind of use alcohol massively. And without knowing at the time that really what I was doing, you know, just going out partying, drinking. And Sunday, I would dread Sunday morning because not only was I hungover, you know, it was the hangover anxiety of suffering another work, work week of that kind of abuse. And I used to work a month on, a week off. So I kind of would like fill my cup up on that week off using kind of like meditation, mindfulness, and different strategies. For me, I think the anxiety for me really started to kick in when I knew it affected my relationships in my life. So I know that my parents would ask me, you know, how's work going? And I would lie to them because I didn't want to worry my parents, you know. Even as an adult, my mum on the other side of the world and my dad, they would be stressed, worried sick. And I felt like I was being a hard person to be around because when you are going through some some of that mental health and stress, you kind of like project onto people as well. And I was living in a shared house, and you know, in my book you'll see that I said thank you to Sarah and Ryan, who are my housemates. And you know, I take my hat off to them because I was consistently either really happy because I was putting on a front, or being really average, you know, crying, talking about work. Like, when you're consumed by so much hate and negativity, it kind of brings you, you completely down. Um, and you know, I spiraled to the point where I was, um, what I call in fight or flight consistently. So I was all day, every day retracing my steps. I had a lot of physical symptoms, which were, um, at one point I had RSI, repetitive strain injury, in my hand. Now I can pinpoint it was probably because of my extensive workload and stress. I was a regular at the medical center on the job site where I'd have aches, pains, backache, neck pain. And at the time, I had no knowledge that the physical effects of bullying had really physically were just playing havoc with me. My gut health, like, looking back now, I, I'm pretty lucky, touch wood, I don't have any gut issues. But I documented my, my emotions and feelings, and I journal. So for 3 and a half years when I finally opened up them journals to write my book. I didn't know I was writing towards a book, but like my gut health was a serious issue. I was constantly cramping, pain, and stress-related. And you know, there was a lot of other things where I don't— I didn't have an eating disorder, but you know, at times I was unable to kind of eat due to stress, or I would overeat. So I think, um, the gym I'd either be completely unable to function. Some weekends I would stay in bed all weekend, or other times I would become obsessed with the gym. Like, my weight would fluctuate probably 10 kilos throughout the time, and I was just kind of like over, over obsessed with the gym, over obsessed with watching my diet like a control mechanism, or just like binge eating, not going to the gym, alcohol. So I went through different stages, and that was At some points the bullying was really unbearable, but then other times, you know, when he had a warning, I reported it 32 times and 32 times it had mixed results, mainly failed promises, mainly warnings, small warnings here, he'd ease off me for a bit, you know, it would just be the nasty glaring stares and to the point where, you know, even being in the same room as a person, I'm an energy healer now, that's one of the great things that I found, Throughout the bullying, I trained to be a Reiki energy healer. And now I know even being in that toxic work environment, like even being in this guy's company literally made my skin crawl to the point where I would constantly be stressed, retreating, looking around me. And yeah, look, it's just, there's just so many different points where physical, mental health, just, I've got a long list of things that like, that happened to me and, you know, the PTSD, the nightmares.

Yep.

You know, it sounds horrible, but, you know, my bully was not only bullying me all day long, he was like in my bed with me.

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, I just couldn't get the image and the stress of not knowing whether I'd have a job and the visa the next day. And, um, yeah, that was just a real hard— and anxiety to the point where, you know, having a major anxiety attack. But sometimes I would feel it coming on and I'd run to the toilet and I'd hide and I'd try and take deep breaths and I would think, I am going to die.

Yeah, like full-blown panic attacks.

Full-blown, and you know, it was just, I think, yeah, that one when they put me in a hospital bed where they thought my appendix had ruptured.

Yeah, goes to show what it does though, innit, right? So when you're mentally run down, or I should just say when you're mentally low and depressed, anxious, there's a huge link. You mentioned gut health then, I always say, I always talk about this, but the link between the gut and the mind is crazy that some of the studies coming out are showing that, you know, that the gut is almost like the first brain now, right? They used to call it the second brain, but yeah, you know, over 20 hormones, 20 different hormones are produced in the gut. And serotonin, you know, which is responsible for mood and appetite, is 90% of that roughly is produced in the gut. So there's a huge link between gut health alone. But what I can identify with is how it makes you feel in terms of exercise and nutrition. What I, what I would like to just talk about briefly is it only recently I started connecting the dots, whereas how much of a big part nutrition plays in, as I was just talking about then, the link between the gut and the brain and all these other factors which come into it with nutrition and what you put into your body and how that makes you feel mentally. So I actually started, I didn't realize this until recently, that I was actually towards the end of when I was having the CBT and stuff Um, that was just one little thing that kind of helped me manage my thoughts, but that definitely wasn't the thing that helped me get through it. Because a lot of people I've had like message me on Instagram like, are you— you know, like certain people who are going through it, they're like, you don't really know what it is, depression, rah rah rah, because you know, like you don't just get through it like that, you know, without having, you know, more kind of professional help or medical assistance or whatever. And it was like, when I look back, that I changed my nutrition, I was starting to actually eat healthier. And it's only recently I've noticed this now I used to eat a lot of dairy, a lot of processed foods, gluten. And when I cut dairy out, I used to get lots of chest infections. Now, when I was mentally struggling, I used to get ill all the time. I used to have like chest infections recurring all the time, and I used to really struggle with that. And I should just be generally just run down, right? Because obviously your mind's working overtime all the time, and you know, you're having all these negative thoughts. And obviously your brain is the governor really, right, that controls everything else. So I was feeling really down with it, and then Only when I look back now, I realized that I was actually starting to eat healthier. I was starting to eat more vegetables. I cut dairy out because someone said to me, you know, these problems you're getting with your chest, it could be dairy. And I laughed at them at first, and then when I started reducing it, that started improving a lot. And it was all kind of at the same time, so it was hard to say exactly what helped. But it just goes to show, I'm sure nutrition played a massive part in that. Some of the foods I eliminated and vegetables— I was eating more vegetables and stuff like that, and I was really honing in more on that side of, uh, health. Because I was always training even when I was, um, low. Uh, training was a temporary fix for me, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't fixing me for good obviously, but I'd feel great after training, obviously the endorphins. And with endorphins as well, just to explain to the listeners, endorphins is like a neurochemical in the brain, and recently I've found that actually it plays a big part in other neurochemicals as well, like dopamine, which is the excitable hormone, makes you feel great, you know, it's the pleasure hormone they call it, and it actually helps release more dopamine. So the endorphins themselves do have a really positive effect on your, on your mental state, but also it triggers off the release of all these other chemicals, all these other feel-good chemicals. So, you know, exercise and nutrition play a huge, huge part in, um, you optimizing your health, really. Also, you know, um, sleep as well. I don't know how you— I'd just like to talk a little bit more about that, how you were getting on. You said you were having nightmares and stuff, um, obviously that was impacting your sleep and stuff. So, um, you sleep— I guess your sleep pattern was a bit out at the At your worst, yeah?

Well, yeah, so I was getting up at 3:30 AM in the morning, so I was going to the gym 4 till 5 every morning to get on the Ardengas before sunrise, which was an hour out of the main city I was staying at. So I wasn't, um, kind of intelligent to how important sleep is, you know, at the time. And yeah, look, I was limited sleep. I was having restful, horrible night sleeps. I was running on empty fuel, trying to kind of over-exercise as well at every opportunity. And yeah, sleep is a massive thing. Like, I really prioritise that. I've, you know, even though I jump on massive stages around the world and do react and relive my experience day in, day out, and, you know, some days I, my phone will ring at night as an example and trigger me massively because he used to ring me at night question me. Yeah, so now, and you know, if I'm dealing with a certain kind of client or customer that's a bit challenging, I need to sit back and say, you know, I'm, I'm okay. And because I can get this anxiety that can cripple me, and I do break out in a large rash all over my face as well, which is a direct result. So at night I'm kind of really valuing like my downtime, because as you know, when you run your own business, you can't just clock off after the 9 till 5. You're constantly having emails, questions, and my sleep is affected by that. If I receive, you know, a call late at night or an email, I can, without even consciously doing it, like spiral, and it can affect my sleep. So I'm trying to kind of stay away from the technology, and that's a whole other conversation. Yeah, definitely. To try and really value my sleep time, and that's, um, be mindful of a morning as well. I know we're laying in bed and the first thing we want to do is lean and grab our phone check social media, which again puts us on a back foot, constantly comparing ourselves to others. And, you know, that just really kind of like taking the first couple of hours of each morning to do my gratitude and morning meditation and mindfulness to set myself up for a day that if life is going to throw something or a challenging person is going to come into my life, which often happens, you know, as in the world of business, that I am, I am, that I'm well equipped to So I kind of don't let the anxiety rule the day, you know, and a big thing I say to myself, and I have to go to the gym of a morning, and I'm sure you see me on the treadmill. I need to do my morning exercise, and that is for one thing, and I call it to control the bitch in the attic. Because if I don't exercise and move my body, which I think is a massive thing for releasing the stress and tension, if I don't exercise, I kind of always find that my day isn't as great. So either, you know, yoga or anything of a morning, like that's my time. And I'm really productive that day once I've kind of just had like that hit of feeling good each morning.

Great. Yeah. I call it the little bitch voice, right? Because you know that voice that kind of deters you away from doing the things which are going to make you feel good, right? Because they're, we always make them out to be more challenging than they are, right? Getting up is the hardest thing, getting out of bed. And I'm glad you said that. You touched on some great points there. Talking about— I'd say this pretty much every episode now, but, um, it's something I, I made a conscious effort to stop doing around about a year ago, is going on your phone as soon as you wake up in the morning, right? Now don't get me wrong, sometimes I'll do it, but it's very rare. Actually, I don't do it anymore because my phone's the other side of the room. And like, we literally every episode, the last few episodes, we talk about this, but I really want to hammer it home because getting up in the morning, going on your phone, whether you're going on social media, is probably the worst thing, as you said, because even if it's subconscious, right, people don't realize they're doing it. You're comparing yourself to other people, right? And, um, social comparisons— again, that's another conversation, right? But it's been proven that over time that does change the way your brain's wired. And, you know, we're already insecure by nature anyway, humans, you know. Um, to do that sometimes can cement in those insecurities by comparing yourself to a world which isn't necessarily real. It's really not a real world, Instagram, right? But even if you're going on your phone to look at emails, it only takes, as you said, it only takes one trigger. It could take one trigger and then boom, you're going to release those stress hormones, cortisol, wherever it is. And like you said, it put you on the back foot. And I'm glad you talked about gratitude. I'd like to talk a little bit more about that because gratitude is my main thing. I get up in the morning, I do a few mobility moves, like literally 5-10 minutes, just some yoga moves. So yeah, so I do, I do like 5 minutes yoga moves. Sorry, I was smashing the table. And just for the listeners, I got to stop doing that. No, I just do a few little mobility moves and I do my gratitude. So I'll do— I'll just write down 10 things I'm grateful for. Meditation, I need to do more of. I dip in and out of that. And because I've done it, the one and off now for a good few years, I'm by far an expert in that field. However, I do find it a really effective tool now just to be able to focus on your breathing, just to sit there and just— obviously you're going to get thoughts coming in and out, especially when you first start doing it. But just to be, be persistent with that and actually just take deep breaths. We, we— it's one of the best tools, um, focusing on your breathing and breathology, whatever you want to call it, whether it's to help you go to sleep or to manage stress. It's something we take for granted, just like we do with sleep. You know, we think sleep is just something that happens and you can just stay on your phone until just before you go to bed and just crash out and expect to have a perfect, great good quality sleep. It doesn't work like that. And even if you don't feel like, um, if you feel like, oh, you know, I go to bed and I sleep great, I sleep straight through, I don't wake up, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're having a great sleep because being on your phone until late is, you know, you're keeping yourself in that stress state and you're not winding down enough. So yeah, talk to us anyway a little bit more about the gratitude you practice in the mornings.

Yeah, um, yeah, just on the meditation as well. So I think like as a society we expect that we need to be like in an Om Lotus position to be doing meditation. Like for me personally, I really find value in, you know, my walk to the gym. It's a 10-minute walk to the gym each morning. And that's my walking meditation where I'm not touching technology. I'm really becoming grounded in the day, in the present moment. And like, that is my meditation. So yeah, and the gratitude is each morning after the gym, we're very lucky that the gym is on the beach. So yeah, walk to the gym, morning meditation, which is walking meditation. Work out at the gym, feel great, and then I just sit on the beach, Coogee Beach, and just like list 10 things I'm really grateful for, and 10 things I'm grateful for that haven't even begun yet. So I really started this where I was envisioning myself in the future, which was probably around now. And you know, I was an author of a book, which at that time I thought I could never author a book. You know, the bitch in the attic where you think you can't do something. Imagining myself on big stages, stages around the world, which I have been. Imagine just really sharing my story with people. And I'm grateful that my business has the opportunity to help people. I'm really grateful if I can impact one person's life today, even with a smile, that will change a life. So it doesn't have to be big things that you're grateful for. It can be, you know, I'm grateful I woke up this morning, 'cause some people don't wake up each day. I'm, you know, I'm grateful for my health. I think we don't value our health enough. Even if we have got a couple of complications, you know, it's, you know, I'm grateful for what I have right now, and how can I use what I've got to help others? And I think like the contribution is a big part of gratitude as well. Seeing, you know, what skills or what can I give to someone else? Because giving is living.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with that. And with the meditation stuff as well, you said walking meditation. So just, I'm glad you touched upon that as well. Talking about how simple meditation really is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's easy. Easy and simple are different, but it's simple if you can just practice a minute or two of— like you said, it doesn't even have to be sitting there zen, focusing on your breathing. It can just be walking, right? It can just be walking and just not going on your phone and just taking in nature, maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, walking's a massive one, and I think this is a key thing for connecting with family members and partners, spouse you know, friends. For me personally, I love doing the Bondi to Coogee walk, but not everyone can do that. Um, but I really take that time out to connect with my fiancé and like, you know, how are you, what's things, what's going on in work? Because at the end of the day, you know, we ask our friends and peers like, how are you, are you okay? And we always say, yeah, good. But like, how are you really? And I think like when we get out in nature or just go for a walk away from technology, like, they are prime opportunities And also mealtimes, like when I work with parents, kids come home from school, how was your day? Yeah, great, straight on the Xbox or PlayStation or Fortnite or whatever they're doing, or on their phone and device. And this is a prime opportunity to kind of connect away from technology as well, you know, either go for a walk, um, they'll probably moan about it a couple of times, but routine is key. And also sit and have a mindful meal, sit down as a family, or, you know, even by yourself, where you're not looking at your phone or watching the TV, and just like ground yourself in that food as well. I think how often do we just eat a meal when we're looking at our phone and we, and we can't even remember eating that meal because we've just kind of slammed it in really quick.

So mine is just distracted with our iPhone most of the time.

Oh, 100%. So I kind of like think that is a key point as well, you know. So you don't have to be there meditating where you're silent, clearing the mind. It's just like every activity you do just be mindful in that moment.

Yeah, great. And I'm glad you touched upon that as well, about eating, mindful eating, because that's something I've really practiced recently. It's been over maybe the last 6 to 12 months. I've really— I'm really— that's one thing I'm really rigid with. I do not go on my phone when I'm eating my food. Now, I do listen to a podcast most of the time, which is something that, that even that becomes a little bit of an addiction. Now, don't get me wrong, I highly recommend podcasts, obviously, but even that becomes You can overdo anything like that because it's still a distraction. It might be a minor distraction. It's not like looking at a screen when you're eating, but there's something to be said about that because we're always, especially in these countries, we're always kind of on the move. We're rushing everywhere. The busy lives we have nowadays, technology is coming at us from all angles. People are on the move and eating. And then even when most of us sit down and most people sit down, they're looking at their phone or watching a YouTube video or messaging people back. And it's completely mindless. And, you know, talking about just your health and digestion, you know, chewing your food is a massive, massive part of digestion. You know, your body, even in your saliva, there's certain enzymes which, which act on breaking down food and helping you absorb the nutrients properly. And not only that, it makes you realize when you actually just focus on chewing your food and simple things like that, that there is, I think, is a form of mindfulness and meditation. But it also makes you more aware of how you just sometimes inhale your food because you're, um, you're distracted with other things. But yeah, so just, um, just to kind of summarize then, I guess, just for any, anyone out there now, I'm sure there'd be a few people listening to this who may have experienced someone who's experienced either mental health issues or bullying or something within that arena. It could be them, it could be someone they know. Firstly, bullying, how, what would be the first step for someone who is experiencing, you know, some form of bullying, whether it's in work? Let's just talk about the work environment first.

Yeah, so the first step is to kind of identify that the behaviour is not okay. Often when people are bullied, it's by their manager, so they— for me, I felt completely trapped. I didn't know where to get help, for one, and I was too frightened to get external help in case I lost my job. So what I have put is, um, resources on bullyology.com and helplines and there's lots of blogs there where they can guide parents or anyone in the workplace to get this support. It's a key thing because you feel so alone, and especially, you know, mental health. There's so many options out there and different advice, I kind of was overwhelmed. So I've tried to consume it all, and I've got helplines for Australia, UK, US, Canada, for around the world. So I'm lucky enough to have partners globally that if I can't help you. And I know when I go on podcasts, people say that I'm the expert, and I do call myself the Bullyologist, but you know, I don't have the answer to everything. And the lucky thing for me is I do partner with amazing organizations, um, including Oz Help Foundation in Australia, which are great for mental health in particular. Um, so identify that the bullying is not okay and reach out and find out your rights. Um, it's important to have a look at the workplace policies and procedures because, you know, workplaces can have policies and procedures, but unless they implement and act upon them, they literally are a piece of paper. So look, once you've done that, you just really need to find out, like, the process for reporting bullying. And please don't be alarmed if your bullying claim goes absolutely nowhere, because HR professionals are not going to like me saying this, but ideally the HR professionals do work for for the company and the organisation, so they'll do everything in their power to kind of protect the organisation. And that was a hard pill for me to swallow, I guess, because I reported it and I know my HR manager was my bullying. But people come to me and say all the time, I reported it to HR, and sometimes they unfortunately do lose their job. Um, but you know, you need to find out where to get help and don't just stay in an organisation and end up in a hospital bed like me. If the bullying isn't stopping, you're not getting the help you need, your mental and physical health needs to be your top priority and you need to get out of there because some organisations just don't want to deal with the big elephant in the room. And, you know, you can fight a long, hard battle, and a lot of people that I deal with have got PTSD to the point where they're unable and they're so traumatised they can't return to the workforce. So it's, you know, there's, there's a lot of resources out there, and I think I've put them onto my website, and for parents as well.

I'll add that into the show notes anyway. That's great advice and great guidance for people. On the flip side, that's what I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you about, um, you know, obviously we live in a world nowadays as well, on the flip side of that, where a lot of people are much more sensitive. Like, people are more sensitive than ever nowadays as well, right? On the, on the, on the contrary, if you like, right? So So also, you know, people kind of entitlement as well. How do you— because like there's got to be somewhere where you draw the line because you must get at the same time people who milk it a bit, so to speak, right? So they kind of play on it and they make a big deal out of it. So I mean, I don't mean to be thing about this because I know a lot of people have and like yourself and I'm not disrespecting that, but you must get sometimes people who kind of, you know, they're being too sensitive or, you know, they're perceiving things a certain way. You know what I mean? So how do you draw the line is what I meant to ask you.

And that's why it's a big conversation to really disclose what isn't bullying. So I work with big organisations and I equip their managers with like the intelligence to understand early intervention of knocking it on the head when it isn't bullying. I've, you know, been manager in 5 positions where there are employees that will milk the system in particular. And it's having the skills and knowledge how to quash them, conversations, and kind of provide the coaching they need. And it's a big topic for parents as well. You need to build resilient youths, um, so, you know, if they do have an argument with a friend, you know, it's not bullying, you understand how to overcome that and how to, like, go through life's ups and downs. And I think in the workplace as well, it's important to provide that education around resilience, I guess. But yeah, it is a big topic and people often say to me, you know, were you being bullied? Like, for me personally, it was passed off as a personality clash to a point where I thought, was I overreacting? And that's where people often feel as well, that they could be perceived like they're overreacting. And there are sensitive people and—

[Speaker] Yeah, of course.

We just really need to know how to provide that support for those people. But there's not a one-size-fits-all answer to that.

That's why you've got like all these organizations which are helping you.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah. No, I just want, um, and then just, um, I was going to say something then before we kind of, uh, kind of wrap this up. I was just going to say, I've kind of lost my train of thought now. You were talking about, what were you saying just then at the end?

Equipping people to be— so I'll just touch quickly on, um, emotional intelligence within the workplace. I think it's an important topic. Of, um, when people get promoted within work and they could become bullies by default. And I want the listeners to be really mindful of this. When people move into power positions, there's a lot more pressure. You've got to manage people, not just your own workload. And this is a big topic that, um, people need to be mindful of, I guess. Um, for me personally, the supervisors I was working with, some of them became bullies because they were promoted from the tools up and they didn't know how to manage people. So I know a lot of your listeners kind of will be in workplaces where someone they work with has automatically turned into a bully, potentially.

Yep.

Um, and it's important to have these conversations as well to kind of equip them, you know, for any managers listening and for parents to have this conversation. Kids can automatically become bullies as they move into different friendship groups. Um, so there's no one-size-fits all bully. Good people can be bullies online. And I know we touched a little bit about technology. You know, I see it all the time. Um, your favorite sports stars or athletes will post something up, or if they have a bad game, good people become bullies because they target them with online hate. Especially reality TV. You know, we see a lot of stuff around Love Island. Yeah, I don't watch all of that crap, but you know, people are losing lives because they're being online bullied.

Yeah.

So it's important for adults listening to this, you know, don't jump behind the keyboard and become a bully yourself. You know, there's so many different—

that can happen. Yeah. No, and we could do that. There's a whole— that's a whole nother conversation about social media and online. That's a whole nother world, right? So yeah, that, that, that can be another conversation. But yeah, you must get some pushback. That's what I was going to ask you. So, um, just briefly, surely you might— like you mentioned then quickly that you, you know, some people say whatever they say and you get some pushback, right? So how do you actually deal with that then? Because you must still get that today, right? 'Cause obviously, as you said, there's so many people out there now who wanna, they're quick to, you know, throw their opinion in and try and shoot someone down, right? So.

[Speaker] Yeah, 100%. So for me, obviously breaking my silence, I'd gone from being this person that I created to kind of peeling off the mask and going on social media as a bully victim. And yeah, and so obviously, like, for me, people say to me, I call myself the bullyologist. They're like, who are you to kind of talk around this topic? And when I actually stepped into the bullying space, like any industry, there are bullies within the bullying space. I'm sure in the fitness industry there are certain people that just want to drag you down. Whether you're in a workplace or school or any kind of industry, there are going to be them people that drag you down. And for me personally, I kind of was second, like second guess, question myself, you know, retrace my steps. But the only thing that I was doing was being a good person. And there are people that are extremely negative and the more successful you become, unfortunately, the more they become jealous and wanna drag you down. And that's exactly what happened in my bullying incident. So I've kind of like realized that and as I grow massively and, you know, my business is growing at a tremendous rate, I've written a book, there's some people that want to kind of still bring me down or ride up on my wave. And I kind of have had to realize that the more successful you became, sometimes you just outgrow people. And if then people are adding no value to your life anymore, unfortunately, you know, I can't continue them relationships, whether they're like colleagues or within business or friendship groups. Um, and yeah, I think it's an important topic to know you know, especially back, back home in Wales, people have kind of like, you know, I don't have any issues with anyone, but people are like, I can imagine back home in Wales.

Yeah, like, yeah, in Australia, you know.

Yeah, yeah, you know. And people don't in them small communities talk about mental health because everyone's, um, everyone's too worried about what other people would think of them. Then all of a sudden, I kind of, I meant to be living the dream on social media, you know, how it creates a perfect life. Yeah, what has she got to worry about earning good money, living in this beautiful place? And the minute I broke it, you know, people were shocked. You know, they know me very well, always confident, bubbly, and a lot of people have said to me, you're making yourself unemployable, you need to stop. That just only drove me further on my mission. I thought, oh, oh crap, maybe I have— I need to succeed.

Yeah, now you've got to prove them wrong. Yeah, yeah, you always, you always get people hating, but obviously that's just a direct projection. That's like what people need to realize who are listening, you know, when someone says something negative or they're hating on you, it's normally just a direct— it's just a projection of their insecurities and something that they're missing in their life. And a lot of the time you've got something they want, and that's the bottom line. Whether that's a personality trait or whatever it is, could be anything. So that's normally the case. But yeah, um, finally, I just wanted to ask you what your top tips and tricks are for basically maintaining good health. I'll just say to the listeners quickly, I always talk about the big rocks the 4 pillars of health, right? Focus on the fundamentals: sleep, exercise, nutrition, and relationships, right? Or social community, whatever that is. And you mentioned then about, um, surrounding yourself with certain people. Yeah, you need to have the right people around you. That's everything, right? So, um, yeah, so that's like my little thing. I always say to listeners, the big rocks are the ones you want to focus on, wherever your goal is to look better, feel better, perform better, or hopefully all 3 of those. Then those are the things you want to focus on. Forget about all the stuff, um, the pebbles such as, you know, what vitamins am I taking and blah blah blah. Focus on those 4 things mainly. Yeah, so give us your— and obviously I wanted to say quickly, we said about the absolute game changer for me was gratitude. Yeah, so I need to focus more on meditation, and that has helped whenever I get stressed. Over most of the time, 99% of the time, whatever we get stressed about doesn't really matter anyway in the grand scheme of things. So, um, I just take deep breaths, 6 deep breaths, and just by focusing on that breathing helps me calm down, lowers my heart rate. And just that simple method has helped me a lot. So that is like a little form of meditation. But the gratitude has completely changed my perspective on life, 100%. I've been doing it for well over a year now, and I genuinely think that I appreciate things a lot more now instead of expecting things. So that's, uh, that's my take. What's your take on, on, uh, helping people with the health?

Probably the top things that I need to do daily to maintain my mind, body, and spirit, I guess, is move my body 100%, get up, go for a walk, go to the gym, kind of really just shake my body. It's massive, you know, and yoga is a big part of my life where before I just wasn't very flexible and didn't enjoy it. So like anything, repetition is the mother of all skill, I guess. Absolutely. So just practice it. And, you know, even going to the gym, before it was a massive chore for me. And the kind of— you just have to find something that you enjoy. Um, so yeah, obviously the gym, and I know you're like that.

Let me ask you about that real quick. So you said that— how did you start enjoying it? Is that because now you have a different perception on things now and you're doing it to take care of yourself rather than just— whereas before you were doing it early in the morning when you were in your stressed state and you were doing it, why were you doing it then? Firstly, was that just to feel better?

Mentally? Yeah, look, for me, I kind of have to work out in the morning and I think I kind of like detach for the outcome. This is only something I've been doing, you know, you always look at Instagram models and want to be like perfect and, you know, if I wasn't the best in the gym or whatever, like, oh, you know, just, you just put so much pressure on yourself. The minute I kind of like detach from the outcome, like if I get up and I don't want to go to the gym because I'm tired, just go for a walk or like just literally be grateful for like waking up and moving my body. I kind of like, some days I'll just walk to the city and back. And yeah.

It's still exercise, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly.

Walking and getting outside is—

Yeah, you know, if we think we're not, you know, yeah, and yoga I didn't see as an exercise before and I was like, if I'm not sweating, I'm not working hard enough. That's complete rubbish, you know, and—

Let me just say on that note, right, I can guarantee you 95% minimum of the people of the people listening to this need to do more yoga, right? Because most of us hate doing it, right? You know, like you said then, I found it really challenging. I do it occasionally, but more so I focus on those kind of movements. I do it in my own time now, yoga mobility stuff. But, um, going to a yoga class maybe once a week, right? Most people need to do that because you're teaching your body the opposite of everything we experience. Most things we experience day to day is stress-related, and it's always, you know, go, go, go. Yoga teaches your body the opposite. It teaches your body to relax and your nervous system. So it sends the signal that you need, right? Because we— it's an art now to relax. So I just wanted to say to listeners, you probably need to do more of that.

Um, yeah, and look, Yin yoga is my preferred one, which is more stretch yoga. You're in the positions kind of stretching. And my partner, when I asked him to come to yoga first, he was like, oh no, not for me. But now it's a massive part. He goes to yoga once a week, does his stretching, he reckons he lifts better. So, um, yeah, so I think it's like, it's an important point to do. Yeah, so yoga, you know, as much I can do that a week, even once a week, it's just great. I do it on a Monday morning at the beach.

Oh great.

Um, there's a free group there if anyone's in Kilgee. Monday morning, yeah, 6:15 up on the hill.

Really?

Yeah, so, um, we, we go there and do that yoga each, um, so if anyone wants to come to that, just drop me.

Great way to start the week.

Yeah, and look, doing that yoga practice, we kind of have a word for the week And I do that wherever I'm doing. And each morning I wake up and as part of my gratitude, I say like, what is my word for today? And it can even be like gratitude, calm, clarity, forgiveness. Like, forgiveness is a big thing for me because I couldn't go forward in what I'm doing with still the hate in my heart. Even though this person inflicted so much pain on me, you know, I wasn't going to achieve anything with the hatred. So a big thing I say is forgiveness removes fear. So sometimes I just kind of like energetically send love and light to all the people that have kind of like shaped my path, I guess. And also networking, that's a big part of my everyday survival, I guess. So, you know, they do say the people, the top 5 people, I think it is, you spend the most time with, you become. So kind of like value my time, because time is such, for all of us, is a precious gift. So time wasted, we can never get that back. So I really kind of like push myself into the social circles and whether it's holistic healing or I always like look on Facebook and meetup.com for like free events. Sometimes like completely random stuff I've never even heard of, but I push myself into uncomfortable kind of zones to kind of like learn and grow as a person. And you know, they can be like forms of meditation or business events or various different things. Like I never, no one told me how to build a business. I kind of naturally fell into it. So every day I'm kind of learning, and podcasts have been a massive part of that. And I make sure that I read— by read, I mean listen to audiobook or podcast at least 30 minutes a day, because readers are leaders. And they can be on random topics. Like, before, I would never think to pick up a podcast and listen on fitness. Yeah, because I was like, oh, the gym. But now I'm learning about, you know, I've listened to your podcast. Yes. Such interesting things about the body. And all of a sudden I'm kind of like listening to business ones on sleep.

Yep, yep.

Um, artificial lighting, all of them things. And I'm like, whoa, why are we not taught this at school? And also financial freedom as well, like how to build an online business. Why are we not taught this? And I think podcasts have kind of opened up a network. So they are my top things I do for well-being and keeping a sane mind.

Great, great. That's awesome. Yeah, that's it in a nutshell then. Thanks a lot, Jess, for your time.

No worries, thank you.

Oh, one more thing. Where, so you mentioned your book, if you can run through where the listeners can find you.

Yeah, yeah, okay. So I'm bullyology.com, on Twitter, Bullyology, on Instagram, Bullyology, Facebook, YouTube. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, that's where I kind of do my real business-focused articles as well. And I'm also launching my own podcast, which is called The Bullyologist. So if you, your listeners can jump over and check that out also.

Awesome.

Yeah, so feel free to reach out with any questions. I'm sure we're gonna do another podcast together. I'd like to get you on mine and really hone in on how fitness can improve our mental health as well.

Definitely.

Thank you so much. I'm glad we met at the gym.

Yeah, definitely. Thanks a lot, Jess.