Bullyology Podcast Episode 3 - Being Unapologetic with Alex Lamber

Hello and welcome to episode 3 of the Bullyologist podcast. Today I'm going to share an interview I had with Alex Lambert. He is the founder of Unlocked and he shares this interview on his podcast called Dreamers and Doers.

Thank you, Jessica Hickman. Welcome to the show.

Thank you, and it's lovely to have a conversation with you.

Thank you. And so we met at, uh, morning yoga, right? In Coogee.

Yeah.

That, uh, I organized with my friend Trisha, and I found that, that we had a lot in common. So you started your, your business that we'll talk about. You're, you're like Tony Robbins too. You're just back from Business Mastery.

Yeah. I think that's when I first came across your name through a couple of friends in the conscious community in Bondi, and that's how I kind of started to follow your work. And attend the morning yoga in Koji when you finally came to Koji.

And thanks. It's good to, good to do them. I did that this morning. That was really good. And we'll get started on, uh, your story. So you started that business called Bullyology. Can you tell us a little bit first personally, what's your story and how you got into starting that business?

Yeah, for sure. Um, so Bullyology is a training and education company that I started to set up following personal experience with workplace bullying. So I come from the UK, from Wales, and I came to Australia in 2013 as a backpacker, like many of us, and fell in love with the country, the people. Um, so I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to work in Darwin for 3 and a half years. I picked up a position within HR in the oil and gas industry. So, it was an onshore oil and gas project with a mainly male workforce, and the buzzword there was suicide, and unfortunately it was men within the industry, there's a high rate of suicide, and so I decided to use my experience on that project to develop relationships culture programs, partner with many mental health providers in the local community and interstate. So that's a whole nother part of, um, my story, I guess. But that really kind of drove my passion to explore mental health. Um, but 6 months in, I had a new HR manager who didn't believe women should be in the workforce. So while I had positioned myself as this strong female breaking boundaries and barriers, speaking about mental health, changing a whole culture within an industry. That kind of put me in the firing line to suffer extensive workplace bullying, where the more successful I became, the more my own manager, my own HR manager, um, would bully me. So 3 and a half years I was in that toxic environment where my own physical and mental health actually got affected by that bullying.

And so it came from your personal experience of being bullied. And do you think bullying was also the reason why so many men committed suicide on the workplace, that workplace?

Um, I can't say that was the, um, the reason why. There was multiple reasons.

But was it a big part of, let's say, the atmosphere on that work place?

There was a, yeah, it was a hard atmosphere. It was high-risk environment working in Darwin, which is hot or hot, and being away from friends and family, living in camps, um, being in this confined environment where you were kind of feeling quite lonely. And that came from why some people became bullies by default, because they were feeling the pressures, the strains of being away from home. Um, so I wouldn't like to just say that that was one of the reasons, but it was a very big contributing factor of why a lot of good people left the workforce within my company. And, you know, and people really suffered in that environment. So for me personally, my job was a big job and I was making sure that I was, you know, serving the people, helping the people, and I could have really done without suffering my own bullying when, you know, I had to deal with workplace stress, consistently worried about other people's mental and physical health and my own suffering at the same time. So.

And how would you define bullying?

Yeah, so bullying is an ongoing, ongoing campaign of belittlement. It's repeated and it's intentional. So if you do fall out with someone at work like adults do, or kids fall out with one another, that's not necessarily bullying. Um, so it's important for me to define what is and what isn't bullying as well. Um, so it can happen online, face-to-face, in schools, in community groups, and it is not where people are falling out mutually because they don't agree with something. It's consistent, repeated with the intent to harm the other person's psychological health and safety.

And in your scenario, in your personal experience, why do you think that person was bullying you?

He didn't like my success, I guess. Bullying has a common theme, which is power and control, and the more successful I was becoming, the more my bully was kind of losing control, I guess. So I had all of the traits that he didn't, you know, I'm kind, nurturing, compassionate, empathetic. I have the ability to make very good relationships with most people I meet. And he was very cold, you know, passive-aggressive, had a hidden motive, very, you know, not a kind, nurturing person. So I guess he probably seen a lot in me that he wishes he had. And he— and I realized that throughout my bullying, you know, people often inflict pain on other people because they have their own suffering. So it took me—

hurt people hurt.

Yes, exactly. And it took me a long time to kind of remove my own hate, not understanding why this man wanted to inflict pain on a young girl who was doing a good cause, but to really look at him with compassion and kindness and think, what have you suffered in your life that you now need to inflict pain on other people? And that set me free, removing the hate from my heart. And that's what really drives me now. You know, I do say forgiveness removed my fear.

That's, that's beautiful. And did you have any particular practice to, to break through on that forgiveness?

Yes, I am very fortunate that through my dark stages of really, you know, suffering extensive bullying, I developed PTSD. I was having nightmares. Not only were I being bullied at work. I was on a visa, so I was— my livelihood was threatened. I thought I had to leave a country, not only a company. So I had— I was pushed into a dark space where I had to find practices to get me through 3 and a half years and build resilience. And that was, you know, mindfulness, meditation. I'm a Reiki energy healer. I kind of found the beautiful gifts of spirituality, which I You know, I had never knew kind of this world of, you know, this community of conscious people existed. And that's one of the great things I found through, you know, the suffering of bullying.

Yeah. I think Sydney and the Eastern suburbs had an impact on both of us. Thanks to this, like mindfulness is more present here than I guess where you're from, or at least where I'm from in Paris.

Yeah, 100%. I was living in Darwin at the time and I was working a month on, um, every fifth week I had off. So I had the opportunity to go to Bali most—

even better.

Yeah. And you know, I was going to Bali and I found, um, a healer in Bali and went through this life-changing experience, which I've written about in my book. And also being around these people that were looking for, um, you know, an alternative lifestyle using health and wellbeing. And it's very common in the Eastern world, as you know, but you I'm thinking there's a lot of people in my family or friendship group that have kind of gone through illnesses or stress, and we don't talk about these practices. So being the person I am, I threw myself into deep education and self-development. And it was through what I learned during that time not only helped me build up my resilience and, you know, study Reiki and, you know, meditation, mindfulness, but also helped me survive during the dark times because there was times where I, I can remember crying on my bedroom floor on the other side of the world from friends and family, thinking, I cannot survive another week in this environment, but I have to help the people. The people are counting on me, you know. And there was that— put on my mask every day and just kind of like, I say it like survive and thrive, but you know, there was a time when I felt like a complete fraud because I was so broken behind the scenes, but I was still standing on stages, International Women's Rep, and just kind of like championing for equality as well.

Nice. What kind of meditation do you do?

I kind of do not a set like meditation practice where there's one, I've tried out lots of different retreats. Mine is kind of just sitting in the present moment. And I do that at the beach every morning. I do my gratitude and I kind of just sit and I use Reiki energy symbols as well to attract everything into my life. Every meeting I go, even before this podcast, I sealed the room with Reiki energy, um, and I kind of just like bring, um, Reiki into my meditation practice. I do go through different stages of different ones and different groups.

Yeah.

How about you?

And I kind of feel you, you put a good energy in the room, so thanks for doing that.

No worries.

Yeah, I think that there's different practices, but, um, we're very similar even though I do diff— I would do different ones. I do Joe Dispenza meditation, it's called box meditation, in the morning. I do gratitude a lot, and I do, um, I do a lot of intentions work, what I want my day to look like. Sometimes I do scripting. So it's a bit like— I got it from Judith that I interviewed in that podcast, and it's writing down in the morning as if it was the end of the day and the day unfolded like really well.

Ah, that's beautiful.

Um, because just— I think it's very similar in a way because we have kind of this 3 pillars I think that are great for mindfulness. There's like awareness, so a time when you, you just check in, observe your thoughts, your patterns. Um, gratitude, which I think is key for, um, for happiness. And then intention, to manifest, um, to manifest good things in the, in the world.

Yeah, I agree. And I do everything in life by that principle of looking at my end goal So even in business, I imagine that, you know, if money or time or anything, all the limitations we put in our mind wasn't an issue, like, how would that look? Like, what would I have achieved? And I actually met a guy a couple of months ago, and he said to me, and it really kind of shaped all of my thinking, he said that when you're on that stage winning a Nobel Peace Prize, what would you have achieved in your lifetime in 40 years' time? and I was like, I've never thought that way.

Fuck yeah.

Yeah. And now I kind of like go back and I kind of like every day I'm like, this is what I would have achieved. And it kind of like looking at my end game. And like you said, you know, at the end of the day, what have I achieved? When I tuck into bed at night, what can I be proud that I've accomplished that day? And aim high, you know, the big game, the big end game.

That, that's what I love about you is like you aim super high. And you're not sorry for it. And I think in our society, we're educated to think aiming high is kind of arrogant or pretentious. And I think our education system, from schools that want us to fit in and to not aim too high because it wasn't fitting in the old paradigm of being like a good worker, and also sometimes loving parents who don't want you to don't push you to aim high because they might think you'll be disappointed or hurt in the process. Um, I think it's a bit of a shame, and that's why I find you so inspiring. So how, how do you— yeah, do you— when did you start really not— I guess it's a breakthrough you have to go through, right? Because we're not educated this way. So when did you realize, okay, well, actually I have a 'huge gift to bring to the world, I matter, and I'm gonna aim high, and there's no reason to be sorry for that.' When did you realise that?

I think I've always kind of been striving for something within me, like a fire in my soul. And just on that, you know, Australia has what they call 'tall poppy syndrome,' where in the US, for example, everyone's saying, 'I am the best, I am the greatest.' But in Australia, there's a big culture where you're told to fit in. And, you know, even touching that, we're both living overseas away from home, where back in our community, you know, everyone is kind of like fitting in. And then as an example, when I started to get into Reiki and spirituality and talking about angel cards and healing, everyone was like, whoa, she's just lost the plot. And now we're kind of like in the UK, you know, the veganism and kind of like veggie. When I first went home and I was a veggie, everyone was like, 'Whoa, freak, like, who— what's happened to you?' Now they're kind of like lifting the consciousness. Um, so I just think like some like patterns are behind, and I'm lucky like here in Australia, in the Bondi community, in Coogee, it's like we're, we're taught to like— and we, we are forced into environments where we— they're not our childhood friends. We meet people, we have to connect with them because we have to make new friends, and we surround ourselves in networks where we kind of like challenge our mindset So I think being away from home, I've had the opportunity, I guess, to learn new things and become confident in myself, to kind of like strive for big achievement and be unapologetic for it, really. Like, suffering bullying for being a good person and being a high achiever was a hard pill to swallow. I didn't understand why someone would inflict hate on another for helping people. But as the saying goes, haters are gonna hate. And sometimes when people are super successful and they are achieving, people live in fear. So when you're stepping outside of the box and really thriving, not everyone is gonna clap in your corner. So people really need to be mindful of the circles and friendship groups that when you do start to kind of succeed— and for me, you know, I've started podcast, got a book out, I'm kind of like breaking all of my own fears. And even talking about bullying, some people said to me 'Be careful, you're making yourself unemployable.' And for me, there was a time when I went, 'Oh, fear,' you know. And then now I'm like, 'Well, no, I'll make this work.' And it's kind of like the mindset, because there are always going to be people that are trying to pull you back into comfort zones because they are too frightened to step out of them themselves. So you do need to be unapologetic as a high achiever.

Yeah, I had this one, unemployable, from And doesn't have to be people who are, who want to drag you down. Like for me, my mom, for example, was quite worried that I made myself unemployable. Um, I mean, depends with who. Probably, probably it's true with certain companies, but yeah, I mean, uh, it's— I find it takes— for me, it took a bit of time. But, uh, yeah, how long did it take you to— like, were you really unapologetic from the beginning, or Hesitating a bit at the beginning.

Yeah, I really— I can't put a timeline on it. Like, I've always kind of like pushed, pushed boundaries within workplace, you know. By the age of 23, I was running two youth drop-in centers for the local council and government. I was in a full-time position as office manager throughout the day, working 4 nights a week in the youth drop-in center and studying my degree. So I've kind of like always had a thirst And even back then, people were saying, why are you working so much? But I'm pretty good at managing a very busy work life. I'm always more, more, more, and managing kind of like a, you know, a very social life as well. So I don't know when it was. I just think, like, for me personally, I'm pretty lucky. And I didn't realize this till I wrote my book. My parents have always been— had their own business or been very business-minded. Like, my mom has had a hair salon for 30 years. As long as I've been born, from a young age. And I just look back and think, you know, oh, I didn't actually, never thought of my mum as an entrepreneur before it was cool, but she's the only kind of hair salon in our local area that's kind of like survived the winter season of up and down in business, and she's got a consistent clientele that know me from birth. And that just goes from personal relationships and caring for your customers and clients. So I guess it's a good principle that when I said I wanted to create Bullyology, there wasn't a point where my parents went 'Oh, what are you doing?' My mom just went, 'You always work it out. You've got your own mind. You do what you want to do.' And I'm, you know, I'm really lucky. I just had the opportunity to take my dad to his first Tony Robbins event, and he said, 'I've learned more in the first 2 days than 40 years in my personal and business life.' So that for me was a beautiful gift, that if I take anything from life, it's given that personal development opportunity back to my parents. Um, even though I had to drag him there, and he said work was too busy, and he told me a couple of days into it that he was actually pull out.

I'm trying to, trying to convince my mom to come on a retreat in Bali at the moment.

Yeah. Good luck with that. Good luck with that. My mom has just started yoga and meditation, and that was a big breakthrough for me. And she actually sent me a picture yesterday of Louise Hay's book. So I'm thinking I'm working. Consistency is key.

And anyway, I'm saying trying to convince, but in the end, I guess the best way to, to do that is to be the best person you can, right? That's, that's what I was finding out.

It is. And in social groups as well, when I first started to do Reiki and meditation, I was kind of like being forceful. You know how excited you are when you first realize like energy, law of attraction, and you know, I was just like preaching all the time and some of my friends were like, just, I'm not interested. So I've realized I have my spiritual circle of friends. I have my like book club, I have like entrepreneur conscious people, and then, you know, my friends that are party friends. And, you know, I, I spread my conversation and time with my audience. And it's— you got to do that because like when you're trying to preach to people all the time, that just pushes people away.

Yeah, yeah. Especially like, I mean, friends you can change, but like with family, obviously. And I think it's like a good teacher too, because sometimes when you become a bit more spiritual, you kind of have that like that mission thing. And I was the same at the beginning. I was more, oh, you should meditate, you should do that. And then you become more accepting, I guess, and, and identify better when people have worthy inquiries and when you're just pushing your stuff on others.

100%. And you know, everyone's on their own journey. And like, for me, people were telling me to leave my workplace, um, when I was suffering the bullying. And like, I look back now and know that that was part of my story that happened, which I'm so grateful for because it pushed me to a point where I needed to rebuild. And when I tried to look around and be like a savior for people that are not ready to be— to save themselves, that's when we kind of realized that we cannot save other people. Everyone is learning their own life lessons and their karma. And yeah, it's a, it's a big thing that sometimes I have to sit back. And especially with bullying victims, some people contact me consistently now I'm in this space, and I can give them you know, some strategies and tools that helped me, but I can't save everyone. And I spent the first year of business giving so much of my time and energy for free with kind of like no return apart from burning myself out again. And I've had to realize now that I need to value my own time in this space. And that's why I built online course and books to kind of like still have the impact but still value in my own, my own time and energy where I cannot be a savior to the world. And I'm sure you feel the same because that's what you do a lot with Unlocked as well.

Yeah, it can be, it can be, um, that can be a big challenge for like to, I think, you know, you talked about energy lately. I've been trying to really be conscious of my levels of energy and refilling the cup rather than trying to power from an empty cup sometimes. I think when we do what we do, which can be— take a lot of energy sometimes. It's, it's important.

Yeah, definitely. We were having a conversation just before this where we thought we could have recorded it, and it's about, you know, how much we've been give, give, giving, but we need to have the balance of receiving as well.

Just to go back on, um, uh, yeah, it's, it's interesting on what you said regarding, for example, meditation. I remember when I started meditation, for example, I, I went to Koh Phangan with my friends from France, and not on the spiritual side of the island. And we were smashing buckets. And, uh, yeah, when I talked about meditation, you know, when we're in a group, it's like, oh, Alex, you became such a pussy in Australia meditating. Here's a bit of quinoa.

Yeah.

And, um, but then when you— almost all of these people, if we spend 15 minutes just being together, they'll be interested actually.

Yeah, definitely. I have spiritual nights at home now where my non-spiritual friends will come around and say, hey, can I have a go of your angel cards? And before they would have thought I was, you know, crazy. And they've seen the kind of success I've had with business. And, you know, success— when you are successful, people want to start to mirror you. So before, you know, when you're not really successful, I guess And now I'm kind of saying, I do my gratitude every day. I do my meditation, my mindfulness, mindfulness meals. And now then people are kind of like, oh, I meditated the other day. And they're really pleased to tell you. And you say, great. You doing it every day? Not yet. You will get there. You know, you just need to practice the skill of implementing it into your daily life. So it doesn't become a chore to be spiritual.

That's interesting because in our circles, it, I mean, to me, it's become such, um, and like a habit, you know, to meditate. And most people do, but in, in this circle, but obviously in the world, like, it's still a small percentage.

Oh yeah. And people think that you need to be sat there in a lotus position and clear your mind. And I just say to my friends, even, you know, eating your meal mindfully, walking to the gym when you're not on your phone, or just walking across the coastal walk, just being present. Like you said, we're very lucky that we can look at a flower and be like, oh, this is amazing. But, you know, people are connected to technology these days as well, that we are unmindful in interaction with our partners or friends. And I was actually out to a brunch on Saturday, and I made everyone put their phones in the middle of the table, and I made it a bit of, um, you know, a bit of fun that whoever took their phone had to down their drink because it was my, my party friends.

I love that.

Um, but you know, you know, my— one of my friends who's highly addicted to their phone, she was the first one. I don't care, I'll down my drink. And everyone else was kind of like looking, or any notifications, and people were really, you know, and that's just how technology has changed us. 12 girls there to communicate, and everyone was on their phone, and I think I mentioned it 4 times before I kind of like put the rule in. Had a resistance, but everyone complied in the end. It's crazy.

This is the best drinking game.

Yeah, I know. No one wants to be the first person to break it. And then I give them a little talk on being social and connecting with one another, and 'Here she goes, here she goes again.' But, you know, it's so important that we are back to meditation. You know, it doesn't have to be that silencing of the mind. It can be like present in everything we're doing and just connecting with other people. It's so important for our health and well-being as well, particularly with entrepreneurs that work at home, which I suffered last week. It's my whole well-being comes from connecting with people in coffee shops and just having them conversations and hugging people, a bit like you. Um, so yeah, we need to really, really need to kind of like get out and about and do that as well.

And, um, yeah, on, on regarding, you know, when you talked about people looking at your success and being a, um, a bit jealous of it, I, I thought that was interesting. And because that's something I've experienced, um, both towards me— and we can talk about what success means to us— but like, I could feel, I can feel when people are a bit jealous of my success in a way, but I could also feel when I, I can also feel when I'm jealous of other people's success. So what makes me, makes it easier for me to understand is that it's within me too. So for example, I have a friend of mine who's very successful, like on different criteria, but he's multimillionaire and has a lot of like good influence in his industry. And, uh, same age and, you know, we're friends and I could remember sometimes looking at— so he sells online courses and looking at his online courses and he's my friend, so of course I want him to do well. But I know when I was checking, a part of me was hoping that it wasn't doing great. And the reason for that is comparison, is because I knew if I saw that person was doing well, that would in comparison make me feel like I was a failure. Right? So, I mean, it's interesting because I can, and I obviously work on that, but I can see it in myself, which makes that I can understand why people do it. And it's a lot due to comparison. And the other anecdote I had, which was a big breakthrough for me, is I'm part of a chat group with friends. And we had a friend, not that close, but one of, someone from my business school started to do TED Talks. And so obviously that's like a criteria of success. And most of the people in the group were smashing him, like, well, it's so stupid what he says. And I was like, I think it's great, you know? And I was like, okay, there's something wrong here. So it's interesting because I can see it in myself. I could see it in the circles. And I'm not saying it's like the people are evil because like seeing it in myself, it's like, okay, I see where it comes from. But I think we, at least I have, and I think a lot of people have that within them. And it's cool to just like, I feel having the awareness then it's like, okay, well actually if some people are going to do well, I prefer that they're my friend, I'll benefit from it too, you know?

Yeah.

I've only just, yeah, I can clearly identify that. And I think if people start to think about it and raise awareness on it, um, first they'll identify it. Maybe within them if they have it, and that allows to then overcome it. Because if you want to be a good friend, you actually don't want to, to have that jealousy within you.

100%. Um, I'm not sure if it's Tony Robbins who says comparison is the thief of time. It is someone. I don't want to steal the quote, but it is something I live by. You know, as a keynote speaker, an author, just started my own podcast, I spent a lot of time comparing myself to other people. You know, other people in the anti-bullying space. You know, there are amazing organizations, not-for-profit charities FTs that have been doing it for a long time. And something I had to do was kind of like swallow a bit of pride, contact them all, say, hey, look, I don't want to be in competition with you, I want to learn from you, you know. Then there's a small pocket of them that got back, and I have a good relationship now with my competitors. Some of them even offering to pay me for leads. And a lot of them, when I first started out, were just uninterested, but they're, they're the people that, you know, that now that support me as well. And it's like any industry, you can compare yourself to other people and Instagram, you know, you wake up every morning, you follow a lot of people, you instantly compare yourself to other people. Sometimes before we get out of bed, we're already on the back foot. So I've stopped looking— don't do that, no, don't do that. Um, so now I've stopped looking at what my competitors are doing and kind of just really focus on being a better person than I was yesterday. The only competition I think that we should have is with ourselves. And there are friends and people around that kind of say they want to kind of ride on your wave when you are doing well, but it's the people around you that kind of like are are there and help you out when you're not doing so well, or you're having the down days. And it's really picking your circle again, um, but recognizing in yourself, you know, when you do see someone buying a new car or someone that was in the same personal development as you and they're kind of like flying a little bit higher, you know, you— it is, you know, you do compare yourself and you do beat yourself up. I think it's like within human nature. But I commend you for saying that, even with, with your friend, because I do look at other people, you know, that I spend a lot of time with and do think I should be further along on my own journey. And I do have friends as well that say to me, I, you know, I just wish I had your confidence or your skill. I said, I, I, you have to build this person, you know, you have to build this person. Like the Bullyologist, I had fear to say I'm the Bullyologist, and I have people say, how can you call yourself the Bullyologist? Like, what special skills do you have? And I'm, I'm not perfect, I say, you know. And the good thing for me was I have personal experience, and I work with a lot of organizations to bring in kind of research. And I don't know answer to everything, but people always think that they're afraid to show vulnerability, they're afraid to be like authentic, and we always have to be this person on the outside. And I have days where, you know, I still suffer with major anxiety as a direct result of my bullying, and I openly talk about this. And sometimes I'll be in a room of a lot of people and I'll say, hey, look, please ignore the rash on my neck. I suffer with anxiety due to my bullying, fear of judgment. And that kind of like breaks the ice because they're like, she's a human being. And I just think that that's something that I'm going to live by now, is like authentic. And if, you know, you do feel yourself getting jealous of other people, it's kind of like, what you're doing, recognize it and kind of stop it, knock it on the head. Because when we do have jealousy, that's what tears us apart. And that's the traits my bully had, and that made him into a very evil person. Jealousy.

Nice.

Yeah.

Um, I have a question because we talked a lot about success. What's your definition of success?

That's a hard one because success in society is planes, jets, cars. And I was reflecting on this last week when I returned from an overseas trip and I was at home, so grateful to be back in my own house. My 2-bed apartment, I can walk to the beach every day, I'm able to kind of surround myself with good people. And I sat there and I thought, I'm at the top of my game in respect to being in a loving relationship, having food on the table, you know, having a business where it doesn't feel like I go to work because it's my calling and my purpose. And I thought, I feel successful. Um, but on the outside, you know, people want to ask you questions of how much money you've got in the bank, or, you know, what car you've got I just think society compares it to money, but, you know, we go to these personal development things and there's a lot of people I know who are very wealthy people that are very unhappy, that don't have loving relationships or good relationships with their kids and family because they've dedicated these 70-hour work weeks, you know. And, and I was the person when I was in the oil and gas industry working 60, 70-hour weeks, exhausted, um, earning ridiculous amount of money but was feeling so empty. And I didn't have time for a relationship then, or when I was, you know, going on dates or whatever, I was attracting the wrong people because I wasn't— I didn't have self-esteem and I didn't have that kind of self-love because I'd been beat down for so long. So to answer your question, I think success is just owning what you have and being grateful for it and waking up every day and just being successful. Like, my mind and body is in a much better state than it was previously. Um, So yeah, I think that's my answer.

Yeah, that's a really beautiful answer. And I hear you, but it's like your own perception, right? Like some people are billionaires and they have the most beautiful family and everything like people seem to be able to desire and be unhappy.

Loneliness. Yeah.

I think, well, that's our mate Tony Robbins who says the, I don't know exactly, but something like the ultimate failure is to have all these things and, and to not be happy, you know, to have— I think is to achieve that much and not feel fulfilled. That's the ultimate feeling.

Yeah, and I think that's when people, um, I've kind of detached from the outcome. So for a while I was obsessing over receiving a million dollars, million dollars, million dollars, million dollars, and then an opportunity arose and I had an opportunity for investment and it was the amount I manifested. So I have never spoke about this, but I'm going to speak about it today. Um, so it was— it's been raw for a while. So I kind of had this opportunity to grow my business into other countries with this investment opportunity, and the investment took up a lot of time, money, lawyers, negotiation, and it turned out to be a fraudulent investor that none of us seen. People posing to be other people. So at that point, I kind of realized— and while I was going through it, I was thinking, do I actually want this money? Like, will it change everything? I'm all of a sudden growing so fast. I've been obsessed with, you know, the million-dollar status because that's what we're told, and it was actually making me really unhappy. And when it turned out to be fraudulent, everyone was like distraught, like, I can't believe this, I feel so bad for you. But I sat back and went, I'm so glad that didn't happen. And everyone was going, you're crazy, how do you always have a positive mindset? But I was like it was the wrong circumstances, and my gut instinct was saying no, no, no. But then there was like, do you throw away that opportunity? And it didn't happen. And I realized that, you know, I had the opportunity to have that money, but it didn't bring me happiness. So now I've detached from amount of money in my bank account and just be— wake up every day, live with purpose, and impact one person that day. And that's kind of like a job well done. I get into bed at night and be like, okay, today was a great day. I helped someone and no money can put a price on that.

It's true.

True. But you do want money as well.

Well, I think that's what you said, I think is the most important to feel fulfilled. And that's, yeah, that's kind of what I want for life too. And I think that's enough.

Yeah.

Taking it from there though, I'm like, I know making more money for people like you and I can allow us to help more people.

Yeah.

So recently I've been more like, okay, that's not, that's not what matters, but it's a powerful tool. It's a powerful energy. And I feel like I want to play with it. Yeah. Which is what Tony Robbins taught me, for example, because I was shying away from money. Thinking it was a bit dirty. And in the end, when you look at the results, someone like Tony Robbins, yeah, he's super expensive, and but in the end, how many lives has he been able to transform thanks to that? You know, uses that money that flows from different industries that are sometimes not the most moral ones or the best ones for the world and flows that money into impacting millions of people like you and I to become better persons. And also feeding children and doing all these things. So that's, that's the impact it can, it can have too. So I don't want to be in a rat race where, you know, I, we have to make, uh, the most impact. But, um, I think it's good to have that satisfaction from very little things. Now, why not aim to, like, like, aim big, as I know you do?

Yeah.

And money is part of it.

Yeah, and changing the money mindset as well. Um, you know, being a conscious business, for example, speaking about bullying, um, in the first year I did do a lot of stuff for free to build up not only my content but my own personal confidence.

Yeah.

And people do expect, especially being a female, um, to talk on like gender equality. And they were like, women in general do get paid less than men. And people, you know, and I've seen a lot of like feminists and people saying about this, um, and it's not my story, but people do say, hey, look, oh, just come and speak for free. And it's like now you nearly— I'm in the process of really setting my worth as well. Like the story and the impact and the mission I have is much greater than a financial kind of gain. It's not only improving productivity in the workplace, but, you know, profits, but also saving lives.

Yeah. And for that reason, I think like, for example, let's take that example. Jess, I want you to be like a multimillionaire because you're a beautiful person and you have a beautiful impact. Impact to make in the world. And I know that that will allow you to reach enough people, to reach enough workplace, maybe to have programs that are distributed all over the world. So like so many workplaces change that attitude towards bullying.

Yeah.

And that's the very reason why I think I would love you to make millions and millions, because I know that's gonna make the world better and have a huge impact.

100%. And that's my big goal. So the more money I earn, the more lives I can impact, the more countries I franchise out to. You know, the big goal for me is creating health retreats for bullying victims. I haven't said that before either, but you know, it's the more money I have, the more staff I can train, the more I can deliver content and partner with another amazing organizations as well. And you know, it's back to the success. People think that, um, your success is based on money as well, and I guess it kind of is in a way, because the more money you have, the more successful you come by social impact.

Can be, can be.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think we've touched on quite a lot of topics and that was amazing speaking to you. I still have, well, first, how can people follow you?

Yeah, you can find me at poliology.com. I'm across more social media, LinkedIn, Jessica Hickman. Bullyology on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. I've also just launched my own podcast which is called The Bullyologist. You can find it on Spotify and iTunes, and also my book is on Amazon, The Bullyologist: Breaking the Silence on Bullying. So I'd really appreciate if people can share, give it a follow, and reach out any questions you have. I'm always happy to answer anything.

Thank you so much, and I have a last question. Do you have some clear impact you want to have in the world?

My impact is I would like to impact 10 million people in 10 years, and that would be a massive achievement for me. More, even better. But now I'm kind of working to get across 4 countries and spread the message. Nice.

Is there anything you want to add or share?

Um, no, I think that's everything. Yeah. Thank you very much. I'm happy with the podcast and meeting with you and it'd be great to connect with people in your community and see how I can help impact them to have a better quality of life.

Thank you so much for joining. And I think it was a super interesting conversation.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. To everyone for listening too.