Bullyology Podcast Episode 5 - Burnt Out with Chibs Okereke

Hello and welcome to The Bullyologist, episode number 5. Today I have Chibs Okereke. He is the founder of Wild Mind Meditation, and he's gonna be sharing his story and journey from burnout to having a wonderful business that helps impact many lives across Australia and the world. So we actually met in a coffee shop a couple of weeks ago and connected over our story of being in a stressful, high-pressure environment and where we both suffered extreme burnout. So thank you so much for joining us today. He is from London.

I am indeed.

Um, he's a very tall, masculine man. How tall are you?

6 foot 7.

Yeah, 6 foot 7. So not your typical person that you have a stereotype about meditating. Um, so he's really breaking the stigma and empowering men and women to really follow the path of peace and happiness. So welcome.

Thank you very much. No pressure there.

No pressure.

I hope people follow the peace and happiness, huh?

Yeah, that's what we're all looking for, right?

Yeah, indeed.

So look, if you just want to share your story about how you came into this business and your journey so far. Mm.

Well, I've been meditating for close to 10 years now, but I switched to mindfulness and really dedicated myself to mindfulness about 3 years ago. So, yeah, I guess you've already introduced me as the burnout guy. But yeah, so I suffered a pretty severe episode of burnout and I've just found out recently that burnout is now considered by the World Health Organization as a— it's an actual legit medical condition now. So yeah, who knew? I thought I was just suffering from a bit of work stress, but burnout is the real deal. And yeah, and you know, I'm kind of making a bit of a joke out of it, but yeah, the word burnout and the feeling of burnout, I don't really think, I don't think really match. I don't know if people really understand what it means to be, what it means to be burnt out. So for me, it was, I had a pretty successful business and I was in a state for a long while of, you know, constant growth and everything was going really well and I was making all this money and then I would just get up the next day and do exactly the same thing. Turns out that when things started going wrong, that was when things started going wrong with the business, that's when things started showing up in my mind. So I kind of realized in about 2016 that I'd been really chasing the wrong thing. So I had all this stuff, so I was sitting in my fancy apartment in Potts Point overlooking the Harbour Bridge and overlooking the Opera House and everything, you know, had my nice car in the garage and, you know, had all this money coming in and I'm sitting on my couch wondering when to to take my sleeping pill so that I can have the best chance of not waking up at 3 o'clock in the morning in a panic and with anxiety about the rest of the day. So, so yes, I'm sitting there in the middle of all this, this supposed good stuff, and I'm anxious, I'm depressed, I'm worried about what's going to be in store for me tomorrow, you know, what what's— what horrible things are in store for the following day, going through all the crap things that happened to me that day, and just, yeah, just in this, in this real difficult, um, horrible place. And on the face of it, I had my, you know, I had everything together, um, but, you know, scratch just slightly underneath the surface and there's this, yeah, as you said before, this, this big 6-foot-7 dude who's supposedly got his, you know, everything together. And yeah, he's, he's suffering, you know. I was, and I was, I was really suffering. So cut a very long story short, I ended up resigning from everything that I was part of at the time, and I decided that I was going to dedicate myself to a, a, a path. And initially it was a you could consider it a selfish path. I wanted to make sure that I looked after myself and I put myself in the best position possible. And, and if I can help people at the same time while I'm doing that, then great. So what I came up with was become a meditation teacher, because when I was meditating, and when I was meditating every day, and when I was doing a bit of yoga, and when I was looking after myself, and when I was eating well, and when I was going to bed on time, that's when I had the most joy in my life. You know, it wasn't when I had the most money or when I was buying the most things or when I had the biggest car or when I had the fanciest apartment. It was really simple stuff, and it was, am I eating well? Am I sleeping well? Am I meditating every day? And am I doing a bit of exercise? So it's, it's not, uh, it's not rocket science, but it's very difficult to do, especially if you're in a state of high anxiety, or if you're in a state of depression, or if you've got— yeah, if your, your mental faculties aren't firing on all cylinders.

Wow, what a powerful story. And I think in society we are all chasing the ultimate goal which we think will find happiness, and it's the money, the car, the comparison. At what point did you realize, I am extremely burnt out? Was it a certain point that just flipped the switch for you?

Well, I guess I realized that I wasn't, wasn't right for a while because I mean, you know, funnily enough, so meditation, the reason I got into meditation in the first place was because I wanted to get all these, all these powers that everyone was talking about, you know, so powers of focus and, you know, I'd be, I'd perform better at work and I would, you know, and I'd have more, more attention and, you know, everything just I was doing it from a, I guess, a pretty materialistic perspective. I, even though with hindsight now I know that I was an anxious person, I didn't really see myself as an anxious person before. I saw myself as a go-getter, you know, someone that was driven. And that burn that was inside me, I saw that as a good thing. And That burn, again, it can be a good thing if you've got enough wisdom and if you've got enough knowledge about how your body works and what's actually going on inside the body. But what I realized pretty quickly when I did pay a lot of attention, I did switch to mindfulness. And mindfulness, we can go into it a little bit later, but mindfulness is all about paying very close attention to what's in front of you. So what, what's my experience right now? And let me pay very close attention to that. So we're not kind of coming up with, um, mantras in our head. We're not repeating mantras, we're not visualizing things that aren't there. We're just paying very close attention to what is my experience right now in front of me. So paying a lot of attention to what's going on inside my body and what's going on inside my mind and what my experience was, I realized pretty quickly, one of my first big insights was that for me anxiety and excitement felt exactly the same inside my body, so that I had the same sensation. So perhaps I've got, you know, maybe a bit of a tightness in the chest, maybe a bit of tingling in the hands, maybe a bit of heat in the back of the neck, you know. So these are my kind of feelings of excitement, but they were also my, my feelings of anxiety. The only difference between those two states for me was what I was thinking. So it was, um, it was interesting to note, and especially when I started learning more about the brain and more about the science of everything when I went and did my teacher training, um, I realized now that yeah, even when you are excited, you're still in fight or flight. So your body's still preparing you for action. So whereas in the past I would pay attention to my anxiety, so if I felt anxious, I'd stop and take a moment and pay attention to that, but I'd never pay attention to my excitement. So the excitement was still taking a lot out of me, but it was all for supposed good things, you know. So I was like, oh well, I'm gonna— I've got that project going on over there, or I've got that exciting shiny thing over there in my future.

Wow, I, I can completely relate to you. So obviously when I was suffering my bullying, on the outside I was achieving great things, winning all these awards, but also, um, you know, suffering bullying at the same time. So I was in this constant fight or flight, exactly what you just described there. So I— some days I'd be completely numb, other days I would be able to push through it and mask it, but other days I would be complete— completely crippled by the anxiety. And it was a similar experience to you. I wasn't really sure of what I was feeling, but I was constantly feeling tight sometimes nauseated and very confused. And that explains a lot.

Yeah.

About how I kind of ended up collapsing, and that was from the burnout. And I didn't recognize the signs.

Yeah, yeah.

But there was a point where my physical health was really affected by the mental stress and strain of that 3 and a half years of— yeah, that toxic environment. Yeah. And not nurturing my mind and body, pretty similar to what you were saying.

Yeah.

On the outside, you know, I had really good money, really good friendships, you know, and it looked perfect, but I was completely numb.

Yeah, you know, and it's, it's, it's, it's funny, you know, we all kind of deal with, with stress in different ways. We will deal with excitement in different ways, you know. So for me, as I say, I didn't realize that the excitement was, was, was, was wearing down on me. So when I end up You know, so I might actually treat things in the same way if I'm feeling stressed out in a bad, you know, if I've got bad stress or quote unquote good stress, I'd still have to calm myself down at the end of the day. I'd still have to, you know, rely on, you know, drink and, you know, drugs or, you know, prescription medication or whatever it might be. So I'd still have to rely, I still had to rely on those things to to calm me down, even from the excitement. So from, from the good stuff. And I think that's the, that's the loop that a lot of go-getters find themselves in, you know, because they're in this state of fight and flight constantly, and they're not, they're just not aware when they need to rein themselves in, you know. And I think mindfulness really helps with that because we're paying very close attention to what's going on inside the body. So, you know, so we've got, we all know what it feels like to be hungry or tired Okay, so those are real obvious signals from our body telling us to behave in a certain way. So if you're hungry, eat. If you're tired, go to sleep. But there's also a lot more subtle signals that the body's giving out. And, you know, talk to a man about, you know, listen to your body. Most of us don't know what the hell that means, you know. I just, you know, like, full disclosure here, I thought that was just something that, you know, yoga, yoga women talked about. And it'd be something, you know, I'd be at the end of a yoga class and be like, yeah, listen to your body.

I'd be like, okay, I don't know what you're talking about, but what's it saying to me?

Yeah, yeah, what's it saying to me? You know, I can't hear anything, you know, past the, all the voices going on in my head and the to-do list that I'm going through the whole time. So because we're all in our— because many of us are in our heads the whole time, we're not paying very close attention to what's going on inside the body. And then someone like myself I might not even pay attention to the hunger signals or the tiredness signals in my body. So I'd even miss the really obvious signals because I've got so much going on inside my head, which I'm paying more attention to than actually paying attention to my body. So, so it really is great to understand what's going on inside the body, what the body actually feels like on a second-by-second basis or a minute-by-minute basis. And once you understand how your body feels, then you can listen to it when it starts telling you that something's not quite right. Maybe you need to take a break.

Yeah, I think this conversation is very important as well for people working. I come from a construction and oil and gas background and the FIFO industry as well. And you know that men's mental health, the suicide rate of men particularly young men in Australia, is at an all-time high. Yeah. And it's a real concern. And I think these conversations are so important. And also now I've stepped into the entrepreneur space as well, where you are unable to clock off at 5:00 PM. And me last week, what I was sharing with you before this is, I'm very conscious of what I need to do to manage my own mental health and burnout. As a direct result of my bullying, I do suffer anxiety where I can be triggered. And now I really need to pay attention to be mindful of what some days when I need to rest my brain, 'cause I'm constantly innovating, constantly looking for the next project or challenge. I need to stop and say, just stop. You know, you have to manage your time with technology. And it is important in this world where everyone wants things quicker and high speed that you need to really deliver it, but you need to take time to listen to your body. And I need to listen to my own advice. And last week was a really tough week for me me where my sleep pattern wasn't great. You know, you should have 8 hours sleep a night and just like a phone, you plug it in to charge it, same for the body. And I'm trying to listen to my own advice and then I was going, ah, another priority, another priority. And this week I've really taken time to just stop and log things in my phone, answer to this email at 10 o'clock, make this phone call at 11, 'cause otherwise I'm rushing between and I'm not listening to my body and my mind is coming— becoming very blurred. Yeah, especially working in high-risk environments as well. A lot of my listeners are in the FIFO industry, very male-dominated environment where working long shifts, high-risk, month-on-week-off type rosters. And I think this conversation is really important as well, that in guys in particular— and I'm speaking from experience when they take that week off, it's, "Oh, I'm home for a week." So head to the pub, gamble, drink, drugs, whatever. And they don't really take that time to nurture their body. And I know that you do spend a lot of time doing retreats for guys, which I love, because women tend to be more open to going to networking events with women, taking time out, coffee breaks, speaking about, you know, our emotions and feelings. And I think for guys in particular, we're still on the tip of that, breaking that stigma around just going and speaking about your feelings with guys in a safe environment where there's non-judgment. I think it's a lot of respect for what you're doing and breaking that masculine, toxic masculinity cycle as well. Um, so tell us a little bit about the form of meditation that you've studied, because it's very science-backed.

Yeah, I mean, it's, um, it's got, it's got about 40 years of scientific research behind it, but it's It's also got about 2,500 years of non-scientific research behind it. But we don't talk about the Buddha. You know, we make sure that we, we talk about all the, all the scientific benefits from it. I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's quite funny, even though most of the people who have studied what I, what I've studied. So I'm trained in something called Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. MBSR for short. And MBSR is a, it's an 8-week course. It's 2.5 hours a week and people are meditating for say 40-45 minutes a day. And there's also a retreat day, so there's like a day of, an almost full day of meditation somewhere in between weeks 6 and 7. So that's really the gold standard of mindfulness training, but even though MBSR is fantastic, and every time you see a study in the newspaper about 8 weeks of mindfulness training helps with XYZ, that's generally they've been put through an MBSR course. Now, the problem that I've got with the MBSR course is it's just a a lot of people haven't got time to do 2.5 hours of meditation a week and 45 minutes a day. So I've kind of changed the structure of the course. I've kind of split it up into two and made them a lot more manageable, a lot more bite-sized. So because the kind of person that I'm looking for, that I'm— I think my— it's not necessarily the kind of person that I prefer teaching over another person, but I guess my gift to the world is teaching those people that are kind of new to meditation, maybe a little bit skeptical, maybe aren't really excited about talking about chakras and crystals and, you know, having whale song playing in the background. So yeah, so I've kind of got a different, uh, target market. You know, I can, I can for sure cross over, uh, to both, and I can talk to spiritual people, but I can also talk to you know, material people, because that, that's really the background that I came from.

So we're talking about CEOs in companies, men in construction sites, people that are not kind of open at this stage to meditation and mindfulness. You're kind of breaking a stigma with and going after those people that really need it, but sometimes very reluctant to walk into a yoga studio and just say, hey, help me out.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, it's, um, you know, and it's, I thought that when I first started out, I thought that it was going to be the majority, uh, men that I'd be teaching, but turns out from, from experience that it's just enough that, you know, there's, there's still enough women out there that are You know, those, those A-types and that are really needing to get things done quicker and faster and putting themselves under just as much stress as men. I just think it's a little bit easier for, for women to open up about it, and it seems to be more difficult for men to be honest and, and kind of vulnerable about how they're feeling. But it helps to kind of see, uh, a big 6-foot-7 black dude from London talking about his feelings and talking about how he suffered from anxiety and how he suffered from depression. And, you know, just by closing his eyes for a few minutes a day and, and paying attention to what sensations are going around the body, you know, just by doing that for 10 minutes a day, you can see some really significant results, you know. And what's good is there's more and more research coming out now showing that you don't need to be meditating for hours and hours a week or hours, hours per day. You know, you can do— there's one really good study that came out last year, and it was 10 minutes of mindfulness a day for 25 days, and they showed significant changes in, uh, mood and lowered anxiety, reduced stress, and improved focus and and performance. And that's just over a short period of under 4 weeks.

Wow.

Yeah. So it's, um, there's a lot of research out there, there's a lot of evidence, and it seems obviously the more you meditate, the better. It's just like the more you exercise, the better. But as long as you're doing your exercise in the right way, um, and you've, and you've been trained in the right way, but also, uh, but you know, you don't need to do it as much as everyone seems to think. So So 10 minutes a day, especially when you're starting out, is, is all you really need to do to see some really significant results.

Yeah. And it's funny when people say, I don't have time to meditate, but we spend a lot of time on our phone and being on the commute to work on a bus, um, is a prime example of how we can just take 10 minutes to close our eyes or even be mindful in the moment, observe what's going on and kind of really monitor your breath. I guess that that 10-minute time is very doable in this fast-paced world. So it's really important. So going back to burnout, what are some of the tips you can recommend to avoid burnout or identify that you are suffering burnout?

Gosh. Um, I mean, it's, it's really tough and it, it's going to be different with, with different people. And I guess I can only really talk about my experience, but I was steadily losing IQ points, actually. You know, like things that were, things that were easy for me to do when I wasn't feeling burnt out were very, very difficult. So I was really scattered the whole time. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't hold a thought together. I couldn't, couldn't maintain a thought. And It's, yeah, I mean, the research has shown that mindfulness and meditation actually improves your performance. And the reason that is, is because it improves your focus. I mean, at its most basic level, mindfulness is just a concentration exercise.

Yeah.

So you're practicing being very focused on one object, and every time you get distracted from that object, you gently come back. To that object. So we're practicing focusing on what we want to focus on. So when we get stressed, everything kind of interacts with each other. So there's going to be things that we— so let's just think about our experience. So as a, as a human being, we're experiencing our senses, and that's what tells us what's going on inside, inside our bodies and around and in the world around us. So if we've got, you know, there's things that we can see, there's things that we can hear, there's things that we can see in our minds, there's mental talk that we can hear, and there's body sensations and emotions. So if we've got all those things going on at the same time, they interact with each other. So if we've got stressful thoughts, emotions, feelings, sensations, everything's interacting and then makes it feel a lot worse than it actually is. So if we can narrow down and identify what's going on in each of our senses, we manage to break it up and then we make that, that pain that we're suffering in the moment, we make that a lot more manageable and we don't get that sense of overwhelm that we do when we're burnt out. So if we are practiced at mindfulness, then we can kind of go, right, that's a stressful image in my head. Okay, let me just focus on that for a while. Okay, now that's some stressful self-talk that I can hear. All right, let me focus on that for a while. Okay, that's a stressful feeling inside the body, right? Let me focus on that for a while. So we're just learning to pinpoint and be clear about where we're receiving our experience from.

Yeah.

So when we're burnt out, we don't have that clarity. So we just have that feeling of overwhelm. We've just got a sensory overload and we've just got things, we've got to-do lists going on in our head. We're having arguments inside our head. We're, we're, we're, you know, we're looking in the past and we're worrying about what happens, you yesterday. We're projecting into the future and working out how not to let yesterday happen tomorrow. And so we're just in this state of overwhelm and panic. So I guess if you're, if you're feeling like you can't hold a thought together, if you've got too many thoughts inside your mind and things just feel, things just feel bad, maybe you've got a sense of dread, you know, maybe you've got, you know, you're just overreacting to things. So yeah, all those things will be a signal of burnout.

Yeah, that's really helpful because for me as a bullying target, every day was overwhelming and some days was manageable. And I say now like every day in life we're going to be going through adversity and positive adversity, you know, if we were all not going through challenges, how would we ever grow and succeed? So it's having them tools to overcome adversity and challenges each day. And for me, finding meditation and mindfulness while I was suffering my bullying, I guess, helped me build a resilience to stay in that workplace for 3 and a half years and overcome my burnout pretty quick. I'm very lucky. People who listen are bullying targets and have got PTSD and not got some tools to understand how to overcome that and move forward. So a thing that I got taught which really helped me manage my everyday state, um, was For me, when I was in a room with my bullying perpetrator, my manager, even a look or a glare felt like he had physically punched me. It hurt me that much. And now I understand energy and toxic environments and how it can affect you. But I used to visualize putting up a shield, and I used to visualize that every glance or nasty word or comment he made was like an arrow shooting towards me, and I had this big open wound. And even a look would be an arrow that would cause pain to the wound. Because when you're being bullied or, you know, abuse, or someone is inflicting so much pain on you, it's, it's like, it feels like an open wound, and people around you can't understand the impact of how that hurts. So I would imagine every time I stepped into a room with him, I'd put up my energetic shield, and anytime he looked at me or bounced, um, or shot like an arrow or a word, it would bounce back at him, and it was more about him than me. I think that really helped, and it was a simple tool that I could manage my own energy and state. And I use this in everyday life, especially in business, or when you're stepping into a corporate environment and you know people are going to challenge you. It's— I put up my energetic shield and, you know, the energy bounces back at them, because often when people want to inflict pain and hurt on us, it's obviously more about them, which I've learned, um, and less about you. Insecurities within them. So I think simple, effective tools that you can use in the workplace and environment are super important, especially with what you're doing and the work you're teaching people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, um, yeah, and I, yeah, I, I do like that technique that you just explained. Um, mindfulness would be very different. I guess with mindfulness we're working with what's already there, you know, so we're not, um, we're not conjuring up any particular images or manifesting anything. So we wouldn't be imagining a shield, that wouldn't be mindfulness. It's not necessarily something I wouldn't, I wouldn't teach someone, but that wouldn't be mindfulness. That would be something else. That would be a technique. So mindfulness, if we were going down the pure mindfulness route, and, you know, and I don't think we should go down the pure route for anything actually, you know, we— it's very easy as a practitioner to get stuck in your own modality and, okay, well, mindfulness is the cure for everything, but just through working with people, I realized that sometimes it's good to actually work on the situation as well. Um, because what I, the, what I found myself doing, uh, with mindfulness, and this is kind of a trap that you can get stuck into with mindfulness, is, is just using it for everything. So I would, I'm very, very good now at sitting in the overwhelm and sitting in the stress and being and, you know, bring it on, you know, I can deal with this. I can deal with all these, like, you know, difficult emotions and feelings and thoughts inside my head. And I can sit there with my eyes closed and, you know, look like everything's breezing past me. But I realized as well that, okay, well, if you can change something, then do it, then, then change it, you know. And this is— yeah, so that's not the message of mindfulness. I kind of took the wrong message for a while. I took the message of mindfulness to be able to just sit in the crap, you know, with your eyes closed, with a smile on your face. I thought that's what mindfulness was about. But mindfulness gives you the ability to do that. But I'm a bit more wise now in my approach. And if someone comes to me and they're in a bad relationship or if they're in a bad work environment, okay, I'm not just going to get them to be so expert in mindfulness that they can sit there in that bad environment forever. Okay, well, if we can work on that environment, let's work on that environment, and then, then you won't have to work so hard with your mindfulness, you know. So yeah, so it's, uh, so I'm still— so I'm, I'm now open to all sorts of techniques, whether it would be a shield or whether it be resign from your job or wherever, whatever it might be. But yeah, mindfulness is great for practicing when those moments come, because they always will, those, those moments of pain and those moments suffering, what position are you going to be in when that inevitably comes along one of these days, you know? And how are you going to take it? And with mindfulness, we're, we're practicing accepting whatever we find. So if you are— so rather than sitting there and, and picturing a shield or something like that, you would just allow that, that pain to come to you And then you would just be with that pain, and you would kind of, uh, observe the pain and experience the pain and experience the feelings that are going on inside the body. And with time, you realize, okay, well, if I'm just focusing on the actual sensation of stress or anger or, or fear or whatever it might be, it's not actually as bad as when I add in the thoughts, when I add in the mental images, when I add in the stories. And, you know, so we're just practicing not adding on to it. So not— we're not piling on to whatever pain is already there and creating more pain and creating more suffering for ourselves.

Yeah, wow, that's really interesting. So I need to practice mindfulness a little bit more in everyday life. Um, I do talk about it and try to mindful eat and be mindful with social media. Um, how are you going at implementing mindfulness into everyday life? I know you're a father. Um, how is that going? I think your daughter is 10 years old now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And how are you seeing the changes in her? And now you've got this education, how are you doing meditation, mindfulness with her?

Yeah. So, um, uh, so again, full disclosure here, uh, even though I'm a mindfulness teacher and I can be, I can be super patient with any stranger out there.

Yeah.

When it comes to my daughter, the patience, yeah, my patience levels come down a few notches. So, so for me, it's— she's, she's my perfect daily practice, you know. And, and I'm, I'm, I'm very, very aware of my triggers with her, and I'm very aware of her triggers. And yeah, and it's, it's— and I've been teaching her meditation, but I haven't been guiding her meditation. So what we'll do, we'll sit there and we'll listen to an app together Yeah. So we listen to an app called Smiling Mind. It's pretty good. That has a bunch of kids' meditations on it.

Oh, brilliant.

So yeah, for all the parents out there. So, and then, yeah, and I can sit there with her and I can meditate with her as well, even though it's very basic rudimentary instructions that they give to kids. It's actually, you know, it's kind of what, how adults can be taught as well, you know. So it's not like it's a wasted 10 minutes of my day. So I can sit there and I can meditate with her in a very simple way, and then we talk about the, um, her experience of the meditation afterwards. Yeah, so I've found guiding her through 10 minutes of meditation, I'm getting annoyed every time, every time I see her shuffle around or open her eyes, and you know, and that's— yeah, so yeah, so I just, um, you know, we meditate together and then I just talk about it afterwards. It's, yeah, much easier to teach other people's kids and teach other people is to teach your own kids.

And the reason I asked is because it's the same for yourself, really. You know, I have patience with everyone, and sometimes I don't practice what I preach. And it's an important— and especially with our family and members. I was— when I first got onto this path, I was like, everyone needs to meditate, everyone needs to read this book, everyone. And now we have to realize that everyone's on their own journey, and all we can do is guide them. It's an important topic for parents as well who listen to this podcast.

Yeah, definitely.

Um, you're a voiceover for an app, right?

I am, yeah. It hasn't come out yet, so it's going to be, um, it's an app called Mind Mechanic, and it's a meditation app, uh, specifically for men. So it's a bit more, I guess, no-nonsense. It's getting straight to the point. It's more of a kind of coaching, coaching style of meditation. And again, we don't We don't talk about chakras and there's no whale song playing in the background. But yeah, the interesting part of the app as well is it's going to be, it's in a 360-degree environment. So you can turn your phone into a pair of VR goggles and—

Wow.

So yeah, so the guys that made it are, yeah, they're 360-degree cameramen. So you can have You can have Chibs guiding you through meditation in the Blue Mountains or in the Rockies of Colorado or in the desert. So yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty cool. Um, obviously you need to be, uh, for most of it you're going to have your, your eyes closed, but while you've got your eyes open, it's pretty cool. You can be, uh, meditating in the Rockies.

That's amazing. So when will that be out? Have you got a date yet?

I think in the next couple of months.

Yeah, okay, great.

Developers are just working on that now, and yeah, they're doing what they need to do. I don't know, I just had to— yeah, I just had to do the talking.

Do the talking. Okay, great. So, well, thank you so much for coming to have a chat with us. I'm really excited to do some work together potentially and, um, share your journey. So just a call to action, so where can the listeners find your— you and some of your work and up-and-coming workshops? On your website?

Yeah, so they can go to my website, so it's wildmindmeditation.com. Um, I'm on Instagram and it's Chibs Meditation.

I'll put all the links in the bio for this.

Yeah, and then I do, um, I guess in Bondi Junction, so if people are local to Bondi Junction, I've got a weekly class there and I put on regular courses there as well, introduction to mindfulness courses. That's at a place called Heart Space Manor in Bondi Junction. But yeah, you can have a look on my website, wildmindmeditation.com, and all the information will be there.

Great. And thanks. And I'll also be sharing an article and tips on burnout on bullyology.com. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been really insightful. And thank you for sharing your story. It's very powerful. Thank you. Thanks.