Speakeasy YAP #4 with Jessica Hickman the Bullyologist

What you doing, man? Hello and welcome to the Yap Irish Student Podcast, brought to you by DCU's Speakeasy Society and supported by EY. Pleasure to meet you, I'm Jessica Hickman and I'm the founder of Book So I'm from Wales, but I actually live in Sydney, Australia. And in 2013, I moved to Sydney as a young, ambitious backpacker, like a lot of people from Ireland I know, a lot of friends from Dublin actually. And when I got to Australia, I was very lucky to pick up a position where I could work in human resources, and I quickly identified there was a massive gap with mental health. And it was men's mental health. I started working as an HR officer in the construction industry and there was a lot of, there was a big word that was used regularly and that was suicide and there was a lot of people, men in particular, that were suiciding and for me it made me really uneasy so I started to volunteer on culture programs to really build relationships with the workforce and see what we can do to help support support mental health. A lot of these people were living away from home, from friends and families, like a lot of people from Ireland, overseas, and from around the world. And it can be a real lonely place when you haven't got your friends and family, and I soon found that out. So my programs are going from strength to strength. I started winning awards—Young Achiever of the Year, Community Fundraiser of the Year—and raising a lot of money for local families as well. But 6 months in, I had a new HR manager and he didn't believe women should be in the workforce. So I am and was a strong, confident female that believed that we need to talk around mental health and support people. And unfortunately, the more successful I became, the more I started to suffer extensive workplace bullying.

How would you— how did it happen? Like, what kind of ways was that?

Yeah, so workplace bullying, um, it was hard for me at first to understand that it was workplace bullying because I think when we're at school or university we hear the words bullying, but you never think as an adult for doing a good job you would suffer bullying. And it took me a while to understand that it wasn't just management because when you're a young person going into the work environment you can think, oh, this is just management, this is what the workplace is like. But there's a big difference between management and dictating to someone and being aggressive and sabotaging their work and criticizing them when it was not appropriate, um, to being a good leader. And a good leader empowers people and really gives them constructive criticism. And he started to sabotage my work, make rumors up that I was only successful maybe because I was a female, or imply that I was having personal romance with workforce. It was just really hard to understand, so I started to develop my own mental health issues, and that was in the form of anxiety. So I lived in fear at my desk. I became really unconfident, and if someone would approach me, a male, of course it was a male-dominated environment, I would start to second question myself. And then I started to get I would get really nervous and a lot of things happened and eventually it ended up where I started to have symptoms close to PTSD. So PTSD is post-traumatic stress disorder and we often hear about this with veterans returning from the war because you're in that fight or flight constant not knowing when you're going to be attacked. And that's what workplace bullying and bullying is like. And I started to develop nightmares. So I was at work all day long, 10-hour shifts on the other side of the world, being bullied. And then when I was not at work, I was thinking about being bullied and retracing my steps. And then at night I was suffering nightmares about my bully. And because I was on a visa, I started to get really nervous that the company would deport me. And he would make off-the-cuff remarks. So like an actual threat? An actual threat. And I was thinking, um, people always say to me, I stayed there 3 and a half years So people say to me, wow, you're extremely resilient for a young person. Why didn't you leave? And the reason I didn't leave was, one, I felt responsible that if someone— if I left, someone I cared about wouldn't have mental health support, and worst-case scenario is they'd lose their life. But also, I was on a visa, so it wasn't just walking out of a workplace and as simple to get another job. It was leaving a country where Australia was now my home. So I had the weight of the world on my shoulders, but I knew that I needed to get support and help, but I felt like there was a stigma around it and around mental health, and I had to be this strong, confident female to help other people, but I didn't get the help I need. And it's really crazy now looking back at— and I think I talk to business leaders and people that are successful about how we perceive that we need to be this strong, successful person all the time, And I felt like every day I was putting on this mask and hiding what was happening with the toxic leadership, being this strong person talking around men's mental health, which isn't easy for, you know, anyone, let alone a young female. Big, you know, construction workers, but they respected me. It was just my manager that didn't want, I guess, to support a female that was strong. And I eventually ended up in hospital last July where my mental health had spiralled to the point of I suppressed it for so long it became into a physical form where I actually collapsed and I was completely burnt out. And they actually— I got taken to hospital and they thought that it was like appendix or some issues internally, but what it was was a major anxiety attack. And I hadn't got the help or support I needed from upper management, even though I did report it to 32 times. 32 times, and I was promised countlessly by various people in the organization that it would get sorted, but what I realize now is I needed to go externally, and when you're in the workplace, you're frightened to do that, especially on a visa, and that laying in that hospital bed on the other side of the world from friends and family, I thought, there are so many amazing mental health providers all around the world and people you can reach out to that can give you free advice and support, and I was referring people daily to this, and I didn't take the help I needed myself. And that obviously was a critical lesson for me where I had to really look at myself and think, I've put my own happiness aside to help other people. And sometimes this happens, you know, whether you've got issues at home or someone in your family has got some mental health concerns, and there's a big stigma around it, and that's why I like to talk I talk to young people and, you know, adults around the word mental health, and I call it mind health. And it's important to me that when we go to the gym, for example, everyone pats us on the back saying, congratulations, you're physically fit. But if you want to talk to a mental health counsellor or psychologist, there's a stigma around it, and we need to stop that. Because the minute I actually spoke, and I had 6 sessions with the psychologist, and it was the best decision of my life. And I was thinking, why didn't I get this help 3 years before? And now I'm a big advocate for it. That's incredible.

And as we go, just a few questions. You said you were very young, and you mentioned you were 20 when you actually started your path on the way where you are now. What would you recommend to students? Because that's our age, and some of them, of us, kind of face the same issues, the same difficulties. And once want to get there, want to be someone in society, just referring to yourself as your own path, what would you recommend?

I recommend, people always ask, and I was actually at a different university last week and we would put a hand up, who wants to be an entrepreneur, who wants to be this, who wants to be that, and often students don't know what they want to be and that's fine. When I left school I tried dropping out of college and I realized I actually did need education and I started volunteering at a local youth club And before going to Australia, I'd spent a couple of years working for the local government, volunteering at youth clubs, just getting a feel for a work environment, but also wanting to help other people. And I think a lot of students I meet now want to do something, help other people, and that's fine. You can try a lot of different things. But being an entrepreneur now, for example, is— I never planned to be an entrepreneur. I kind of fell into it. And we all— We also suppress some things that have happened to us in the past and see them as a weakness. And mine, for example, has now created a business because I've decided to peel off this strong person mask and show my vulnerability to help others. And I never wanted to create a business out of bullying and become like the bullyologist, I call myself. But all I wanted to do was share my message with one or two people and hopefully it can help them. And now I've managed to to create this business where I'm going around the world helping people online at schools, the workplace, and cyberbullying. So my advice to young people would be whatever is happening in life to you at the moment, think of how it's actually making you a more resilient person, giving you the confidence and life skills to grow. And even if you are going through a bit of a tough time with mind or mental health, um, seek out and get help and see how Maybe one day that this could actually be a blessing in disguise and it can actually allow you to help other people going through tough times. Because with the rise of social media now, where we're all comparing our lives to other people from the minute we wake up, we're scrolling Instagram and all of a sudden someone's life always looks a little bit better than ours and it's causing major anxiety. And that's something that I decided that I'm not going to do first thing in the morning. I wake up, I go to the gym, I do a bit of meditation, I sit and feel my mind and body and be grateful for what I've got, not what I haven't got on Instagram or Facebook.

Actually, on that note, you mentioned to me the other day that you got really much into yoga and meditation, which kind of got you through yourself, because modern day they just give you medication, they give you pills so you'll get better. But like, I, I had the same issue and I really got back into yoga So I'd like to ask you how it helped you yourself, how it made you feel better about yourself.

Definitely, I'm a big believer in holistic health and I'm pretty lucky I live in Sydney and I live in Bondi Beach and everyone seems to be hippies and yogis and vegans, you know, and we're the generation of the millennials, right? And we're very lucky now that we have this option that maybe our parents' generations before that, they didn't have this kind of hippie kind of lifestyle. But it doesn't have to be a hippie lifestyle. For me, when I was in the peak of my despair, and what actually allowed me to stay for 3 and a half years was finding mindfulness. And I just went on meetup.com one day and just found like a local group, and someone asked me, "Do you want to come to meditation?" And I was in such despair, I thought, "It can only make me better and help me." And that was the best decision ever. And people say, "Meditation, I can't do that." I can't silence my mind, I can't stop my mind, and I say that's fine. As long as you're sitting there feeling your breathing and just taking that time out for yourself to connect back to how you're really feeling, you can have your eyes— you don't have to be floating in the lotus position to, you know, do meditation. And then yoga. My body had been so tense and stiff. I still suffer with extensive pain around my back and neck. Whenever I'm doing a big speaking engagement or gig, it's around holding my body so tense for so long, and there's a lot of people in the world that says that your body remembers. So I really recommend just connecting to a local yoga studio or meditation. I'm massively into essential oils as well. There's a brand called doTERRA and I work with them extensively now of how they use essential oils to connect you back to your mind and body and spirit. And there's— my book is coming out next month, and it's not just the typical bullying book where you say how to survive it, it's how to heal from it. And it's not just bullying, it's mental health, so how to survive the modern world of technology and cyberbullying.

Actually, more about your book, what inspired you to write a book? How was the decision made?

Yeah, I have been telling my story probably for the last year yeah, and I always wanted to at first write a book, and writing a book takes a long time. And at school I was always kicked out of class basically for talking too much, and I was told that speaking was my weakness. And I always thought, wow, I can maybe actually just share my message on social media. And I found that just telling my message has been more powerful speaking, but also when people interview me or having a conversation, I feel like I needed to just give them a working interactive tool to work through. Some of the— manual, yeah, just to work through. So I've not just made a book which tells my story, I've made a book that's an interactive tool that people can work through at their own pace with mindfulness activities, um, some myths around bullying and mental health, and really learn from that book as well, but also inspire others. And with the tools that I've got in the book, maybe you'll see someone in class or your family member that you you maybe can pass that too long. So I wanted to just not tell my story, I wanted to inspire others to take action globally as well.

So just to reach more people who are not comfortable with just speaking. Yeah, maybe reading will be the way.

Maybe reading. Yeah, so I'm, I'm a talker, and for me, writing a book now and even sharing my message has been really powerful for me. And I've got a YouTube channel, Bullyology, and social media, and I found that anyone can have a voice. And young people in particular, you think that you need to have all this money behind you to create a business, but I just took to social media and started sharing my message. And it's not about the likes or the followers or how many people you have liking a picture or following you. If my message impacts just one person that stumbles across it, which it has been, and I've been pretty lucky to go around the world and Chicago, LA, New Zealand, and bullying and mental health is— should be at the front of every conversation. And it doesn't matter whether you're from a different country We're all going through battles and the rise in technology is something that has the pros and cons, I guess.

It leads me to actually anxiety question. I want to make sure you think it should be considered more seriously because it's something that happens inside and not on outside. You can't usually see it until it hits all at once. So as you who actually went through it, you know, you think it should be more analyzed, should be more research done about it, shouldn't be just pills given away to to shut it down until it actually hits all at once.

Yeah, um, I completely agree with that. While I don't say, um, you know, if you've got anxiety or some mind health issues that you need to talk to a doctor about, I'm all for that, but for me it was if I self-medicate now, I needed to find a way to deal with my anxiety because I knew it wasn't going away. And I suffer extensive anxiety, but I know now through my mindfulness I use I use crystals, I use healings, and I just sit and feel. And last week I had major anxiety. I was actually speaking on the BBC radio, and before that I had anxiety all night. But I'm at a place now where I can say, right, okay, and accept it. And I'm open and honest, and I say to people, like, I'm suffering major anxiety, I get a rash all over my neck. And I'm honest and I own that, and people go, wow. Often people don't admit they've got anxiety. Whether it's through a relationship or family or studies, exams, and we should— and there's too much of a stigma around it. And I'm all for holistic healing, but obviously if you are at a low point where you do need to get some medication from the doctor, I'm completely all for that. You need to feel what's right for you individually, but we need to break the stigma. And some of the world's most famous people suffer anxiety. And I've learned to love my anxiety because I always feel when I'm anxious, I'm on the cusp of something wonderful.

Absolutely. Yes. Because I used to have it myself as well, actually. And I found it very difficult to take care of myself in serious situations. When you feel the wave coming out, like it's going to actually, like, you know, you lose control of your body in most situations. How would you deal with it straight away if you need to take care of yourself? If it's a situation where you can't just sit there and just do nothing, how would it be the biggest tip if you take care of it?

What works for me is when I feel like the anxiety is going to cripple me, because sometimes I do, I start suffering pain in my neck, I just need to sit down and just connect, and I just literally put my hands on my body and just take deep breaths in and out, and I count backwards from 100 and on every count I just take a deep breath. And I always find when I get to around— depends how anxious I am— around 70 and downwards, I can take control of my breath. And it's all around breathing. I'm a— we're not told in the Western world, um, that our breath is controlling life. And it's just connecting back and just finding that peace, just to sit and just honor how my body needs.

I'd say that's why yoga is such a big thing when calming down and being in peace with your body, mainly based on breathing. Just, yeah, to finish up, I want to talk about bullying in the modern world because you travel the world talking about it. Do you think it gets better nowadays? Do you think, like, I just want your worldwide perspective on how it's being treated, how it's being taken care of.

Yeah, so bullying is an old story. It's rear this ugly head at schools and workplaces for forever. But now it's changing drastically because while it was at workplace or school and you could go home and have the safe haven of your home and disconnect from the abuse that you were suffering, it's now following people into their homes in the form of technology. So your social media account, your LinkedIn, your everything, where everyone is now having bullying follow them at home. And this is a global issue at the moment, and with people addicted to social media. And I was actually watching the news last night that China have actually given it— people are going to clinics because they're addicted to social media. That also comes with a negative effect of your phone is always in your hand, and good people who don't want to bully people are also bullying sports stars and celebrities with abusive comments after they have had a bad game or match. Yeah, and it's really educating people. And while bullying is happening all around the world. I'm actually working with a company and they've got this amazing technology that detects and educates on cyberbullying, for example, but also provides real-time education to parents and youths. And what we're finding now is young people are given iPhones, iPads, as young as— I seen someone actually last week, a 2-year-old navigating their way around YouTube. But, you know, you're 8 years old now and you have a phone and you haven't got the emotional intelligence to understand what certain words mean, but when you post stuff up online, you don't know the damaging effects it could have on a young person. And so what this platform does— Starshell Student, it's called— when the young person posts maybe a picture that's showing too much skin or nudity, it can text them and say, hey, this is what this picture could mean, and give them the option to delete that. So it's the social and emotional intelligence It also texts the parents and says, look, this picture has been posted, or this word has been posted. This is how to approach the conversation with your young person. Because what we're finding, technology is moving so fast, and cyberbullying and social issues are changing. For parents, when they were at school, and they didn't— parents sometimes don't have the technology expertise to understand what the young people are doing online. So it's kind of working with parents, school, university, chaplains, etc., to educate people on how bullying is changing in the modern world?

I'd say it's very important for women in general, not just actually younger generation, because it's a lot of girls right there who think the way through the world and anywhere there just show a little bit of skin, which is unfortunate, but that's how— that's the point when they become most loved by the likes and followers and everything like that. So I would say that technology would be amazing to actually explain to some of those 15, 14-year-old girls that that's not the way, there is another way, and that some sort of like showing skin could be seen in different ways.

And the way we are now with Instagram, and it's all people's confidence is now depending on likes. And for example, we've got certain celebrities or people in the US, and no disrespect, I like watching the Kardashians, but, um, are our bodies are sacred and girls younger and younger are seeing that when we put nudity onto social media, for example, that's when we get the likes. And if we're putting pictures of our coffee or food, and sometimes, you know, I love posting, you don't get as many likes. And young people are actually basing their happiness on how many likes they get, and that causes anxiety in itself. So as technology moves, people are going to start bullying one another even more and going to start developing anxiety.

I think the action should be taken very much immediately because technology world develops by second, not even by minute now, but it just grows bigger and people are born every second and more people introduced to it, young teenagers, and I think it's incredible what you do. I think it's incredible that you try to find a way to approach it and to fix it and stay on top of the whole development itself.

Yeah, and thank you so much, and I couldn't have done this without people around the world supporting me, sharing my message on social media from platforms and also companies that have reached out to me and helped upskill me because as a young entrepreneur, I guess I didn't know anything about business. I didn't study business at school, but I've got amazing mentors around me and I recommend anyone, if you've got an idea of how you want to impact the world, just reach out to someone that maybe, just model people that are doing well and Yeah. Amazing.

Thank you very much for doing what you do. My name is Anastasia Dray.

Jessica Hickman was— Thank you very much.

—talking to you. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you.