Upstander Leader Series - Jo Farrell

Today I'm interviewing Jo Farrell. Jo is the founder of Build It Like a Girl, and her career spans over 2 decades across multiple spectrums of the construction industry. A qualified carpenter by trade, licensed builder, certified building designer, and now general manager of a multi-billion dollar construction company. She has worked from the ground up to where she is today. Jo's going to be sharing some of her expertise and insight into the industry and some of the challenges as a female she's overcome. So, hi Jo, thanks so much for agreeing to chat to me today.

No problem.

So, where are you?

Um, so currently I'm based at the Australian War Memorial. We're doing some early works up here for their main works project, so I'm sitting across the road. I'll give you a bit of a snapshot because it's a lovely building even though we're tearing it apart. So very, very iconic place. So yeah, so just sitting across the road while we go through and do some infrastructure works up here.

Yeah, so you've had a power out today. So thank you for agreeing to join me.

No problem.

It's interesting because as I was about to record our podcast, the builders across the road— I've got a house being built— and they started banging and playing music. So I thought, oh, it'll add to the effect, it's construction. Absolutely.

Ambience, it's the ambience. That's it.

So, well, I was really excited that you agreed to have a chat with me because I've been following your work from, you know, Build Like a Girl to your role in KANE as General Manager and some of the things you share about within regards to your experience as a female in the industry. And I just wanted to chat to you about, you know, your backstory. Was it easy? I worked in oil and gas and construction and had a really tough time. So, I think I can resonate with it and I think your message I would love to hear.

Yeah, yeah. So, next year is my 25th year in construction, which shows my age a little bit, unfortunately. But so, yeah, I started off, I sort of, I knew I wanted to work in construction when I was at school, but I grew up on the South Coast in Wollongong and it really wasn't the done thing, particularly for the girls at my school. There was no one else who thought about it and the boys used to go off and work at the steel mill steelworks and the girls would sort of, you know, go off and be hairdressers and things. So, I found it really hard to get the door open for me to do an apprenticeship and got a lot of rejections and a lot of comments about it's not a girl's job and, you know, we can't have girls on site and all those sorts of things. So, yeah, so it took a while and eventually a guy that I just sort of badgered and badgered and badgered and wouldn't leave alone, he eventually relented, but I had to work for nothing for 3 months to kind of prove that I was able to do the job. And so I did that, and then eventually he kind of caved in and gave me the— signed me up to be an apprentice, and that's kind of where it all began, really.

So just to recap on that, you have to, as a female, offer 3 months' worth of free work to prove your worth in the industry.

Yep, yep. And in that time, both he and the other guys on site made it as difficult as possible and challenging as possible to try and sort of prove that I didn't belong there. Tell me about that.

How did that look?

Lots of, like, so I think my first day on site, I was handed a shovel and told, "Go and dig a hole over there." And I said, "Why?" And they said, "You don't ask any questions. You just do as you're told." So I started digging and I said, "Well, how big does this hole need to be and how deep?" And they said, "We'll tell you when to stop." And so the hole got bigger and bigger and deeper and deeper until I was sort of standing about my height in it. And then they said, "Okay, now you can fill it in." 'Fill the hole in.' So I filled the hole in, and then they said, 'Okay, now you're going to dig a hole there.' And so there were things like just— it was just meant to be demoralizing and demeaning. And, you know, I guess they wanted me to sort of stop doing that, to say that I wasn't physically up to the task. When those sorts of things didn't work and I kind of just did it and got on with it, they, you know, it was other things, other comments, you know, sort of locking me in toilets. So in the, in the portaloo and pushing the portaloo over and all those sorts of things.

And oh my gosh, with you in the portaloo pushing it over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not a nice experience. And I know, I know that other, other women have experienced that as well from some conversations had. Yeah, yeah, so it's not comfortable when a portaloo has been pushed over.

It's not great.

No, no, it's not, it's not nice. Yeah, so look, it had— there was lots of things. There was all manner of things, and it was all meant to sort of, you know, break you down and sort of prove that you weren't tough enough to be there. But, you know, I'd sort of go home and I'd be upset, and my parents would say, look, just go back and have another go. And I guess I was lucky I had supportive parents and friends that kind of encouraged it, and eventually it got better.

So I think on that point, it's interesting because when we— and this is a bit of big piece of work that I do at the moment with a lot of people in construction is around that old-school mindset, and you talk about Jurassic mentality, and a recent example, and I give this a lot because I see it day in, day out in my work, is the fact that when I question behaviors and language, it often comes back to, well, when I was an apprentice, this is how I got treated. And it's men and women, so there seems to be this, uh, this initiation that is still within the industry. Do you see that?

Yeah, yeah. So there's this gaslighting mentality of, oh, well, we used to be able to say this, but we're not allowed to now. And I always say, no, you were never allowed to say it, but we were never allowed to call it out because if we did, we were the ones who'd lose our jobs. So it was never okay. And there's this strange mentality of, um, oh, well, you know, back in the day we could do this, or, you know, we used to be able to do this, but not everybody's so PC, and why do you take things so seriously? And it becomes the woman's problem to own that behavior now where, oh, well, it's just a joke. Why can't you take a joke? Why isn't it funny? It never was. It never was funny. It's just now we call you on it and you get extremely uncomfortable because you know it's wrong.

Yeah, and I got told, toughen up, princess, this is the industry. So I put up with the bullying and harassment for 3 and a half years, trying to be tough and trying to be resilient. But there comes a point, and I unfortunately ended up collapsing at work from workplace stress. So I kind of, you know, built that level of resilience. But I guess even the most resilient people, when you're just constantly abused day in, day out, it just gets to you.

Yeah, it's the exclusion though as well. And it's the— I really think that that blame that is placed is actually probably the worst. So the part where you know what is being said or done is wrong, you call it for what it is, but then you're ostracized and excluded because of actually saying that. And that compounds it even more. And then all of a sudden, oh, well, we can't talk to you because you can't take a joke, so you need to sit there on your own and not be part of our conversation. And that can be just as damaging.

Yeah, that's actually it, because when I actually challenge people— because I work to build upstanders and help people move from bystanders to upstanders— a lot of things I hear is that they don't want to challenge it because they're scared they'll, uh, the bully or the perpetrator will turn on them, or they'll end up being excluded, so that isolation and loneliness. And even I always say to people, if you look over your shoulder before you say something, you know it's not right. I see people go, "Oh," and give a bit of banter, but you're like, "That's actually not banter." So, what would you say, and this is a question I get asked all the time in the industry, because we all have banter with our peers and have a bit of a laugh on site, but when does it cross from banter to bullying and harassment and, you know, toxic toxicity?

I think that with so many other things going on in the community and society, it's not hard to know where the line is. I think it's very clear where the line is. I think that for some reason, construction's almost rebelling against stepping into the 21st century in that mindset, and somehow the sexism and the racism, you know, this is the haven for that, and it's still allowed to go on and not be called for what it is. And I think that, you know, for us and particularly on our sites, In the odd occasion that someone says something, it's called out straight away, and not just by me, but by other people to say, "Hey, that's not okay." You know, and then it's very quickly dealt with. And it does come back to that whole upstander versus bystander, is that you will see people get uncomfortable and stand there and they want to say something, but they don't. But I think there's more and more who are prepared to actually say, "Hey, that's not okay. It's not funny and you shouldn't be saying that." Yeah.

I think that's great what you've said then, that's great advice, just simply, "Hey, that's not okay," because often it's hard to find the words that we have to go in and explain why, but if you create a culture where you just say, "Hey, that's not okay," that should be a sign that it needs to stop now and that's a boundary that's being crossed.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

So, um, with regards to your career, obviously, um, you're in a GM role now, General Manager, um, tell me about when you first stepped into that role, or how did you move from being the apprentice into, you know, leading a big team now?

Yeah, it's been a bit of a journey. So, I moved from the coast to Sydney and I worked in Sydney for a long time and sort of worked my way up and really established a fantastic support network. And I really encourage, you know, young women to seek out those support networks because, you know, many a time when I was really ready to quit and to stop and not go any further because I just I just had enough. It's like you say, you know, that constant daily grind. And, you know, the most resilient and toughest of people, it affects us. It affects all of us. And so, I was lucky to have some great mentors who were both men and women who were kind of there at those key points in my career to sort of not only guide my career decisions, but kind of say, you know, "Keep going. Just keep going. Don't listen to that criticism. Don't listen to the negativity. Keep going." And so, that was really crucial for me. And so, I kind of just, yeah, went from being an apprentice to being a leading hand and a supervisor. I was then asked to join a company to be a project manager, managing massive projects in Sydney on facades and structural steel elements. I then became an operations manager for a very large structural steel company, and we were doing, you know, huge projects on airports and various things. And yeah, just kind of kept ticking my way through. You know, battled the age-old thing that many women do when they start that career development about being underpaid. So, you're doing the same job as the guys next to you and being— I was being paid a third of the salary and doing twice the work of my peers. So, I had to have— navigate that very, very difficult situation. And then, yeah, kind of got the opportunity to come across to Kaine and just thought it was a great opportunity to come in and kind of really start initiating change at that level that I've always wanted to see and be a part of.

Yeah, that's awesome. And there's a couple of things coming through to me, a great advice about, you know, it's so important to have mentors that can help and guide us because there's oftentimes that we just need that advice.

Yeah, yeah.

I think, you know, when you move from being part of the crew to leading hand, how was that transition? Because I often work with people and I'll give you an example. So I've had supervisors that work within my team when I was in a people and culture role, so I would help with the supervisors to transition. But what I often find was they can go two ways. They try to be one of, you know, the lads, and they're unable to make that jump, and they become, you know, pretty shitty leading hands because they just let things slip. And then the other hand, I've seen— and there's a couple of others— but I've seen good people become bullies by default.

Yeah, yeah.

Because they are now, you know, they're good at their trade or subject matter expertise, and then they're in this role where they now have to manage humans in a complex industry that's got all of these problems.

Yeah.

And then they've sometimes become micromanagers.

Yep, yep.

Well, how was the transition for you? Did you have to learn the human side of leading, or did it come a bit more naturally to you?

Yeah, um, it's come naturally, and I mean, I've played a lot of team sports as well and played soccer at a very high level and AFL and others. And so, you sort of, you learn and understand that, you know, whilst you're working with a team, there are people that have natural skills in leadership and can naturally kind of guide people. You know, so I think there's an element of that that does come fairly natural, naturally to me. I did find it hard, actually, I didn't find it hard from the work front. The guys I found would actually be quite responsive and were quite happy, you know, for me to actually organize them in a way that helped them be productive. So, it didn't come from the side. It actually came from people when I would walk into coordination meetings, say, for, you know, a very, very large project, and they bring everybody in from the different companies, and we would sit down. And as soon as I walked in the door, the guys in the room would start giving me their coffee order because I was the only female in the room and because, of course, I must be there to take their coffee order. And then, there'd be this embarrassing moment when someone would introduce me and say, well, she's actually in charge of the facade and the structural steel, and she's here to tell us how this is going to be built. And you'd see them all get really uncomfortable and defensive because they've made this assumption. And, you know, a couple of times— and so that's happened a huge amount of times as I was sort of developing. And I was just kind of like, first couple of times I laughed it off, but then you start to get really cranky about it. And it's kind of like, what— why do you think that? You know, what makes you think that that's all a woman is here to do? And, you know, so eventually I kind of learnt that I'd just turn around and start giving them my coffee order and kind of, you know, throwing it back a little bit and having that sort of awkwardness that I sort of started to embrace, to be honest.

Honestly, a lot of it comes from unconscious bias, and I was on a team of like 8 males around the table. You know, we were subcontractor on an oil and gas project, 52 different, you know, companies, and we'd walk into meetings and people would go, "Jess, you can take the notes." Yes, yes. Why should I take the notes?

Yes, yes.

You're naturally good at it.

And I'd just be like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

In front of you and, you know, and then I'm like, well, why am I? And then I started to push back a lot more. But it is, you're just naturally assumed as a female.

Yeah.

A lot of it is unconscious bias, right?

Yeah, yeah.

That's, that's the gender role.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that was always a bit of a staple sort of going through my career. And I guess, you know, all of those things have really fed into how I manage people. And, you know, I don't make assumptions about anybody on anything, you know, at all. And I guess my mandate, and to give you an example in terms of how I operate now, is my management style is that I'm here to support my team. So, I'm not here to sit in an ivory tower and kind of, you know, have long lunches and all that sort of stuff. Like, I'm here to support the team. And I actually have quite a young team and a developing team. So, you know, the project that we're on and that I'm sitting on today is very complex and very detailed. I'm here every day actually sitting in the team, still doing the general manager role, but here to provide that technical advice and that knowledge. And the guys come up to me constantly. I've also got 2 young females here who are apprentice plumbers who I stick, you know, very close to as well. We've got 140 people on this site, there's 2 female plumbers. So, you know, there's 3 girls on total on the site as per usual. But, you know, I see my role as a support role that I've gone through you know, my pathway to get to this point and have learnt all these things, it's my responsibility to pass all of those things on to the people who work with me. You know, so I think that's kind of the leadership style that needs to be in place, you know, rather than kind of going, "Oh, well, I'm sitting at the top of the food chain now and I can put my feet up on the desk and it's great." It's not. It's not what it is.

And that's where trust is built. And often when I work with teams that are dysfunctional, there's lack of trust, lack of psychological safety. And I say to the leaders, like, how often are you going on listening tours or getting out there? How long 'do you jump on the tools?' And they're like, 'Oh no,' because there comes this level of ego that is like, 'Oh, I'm too good for that now. I wouldn't be a shit kicker,' someone told me. And I went, 'Well, strong leadership is visibility, and if you're not out there, how are you able to connect with your people?' Yeah, okay. Like, that's— that's— yeah, great.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, like, we're currently— because a portion of this project is so critical, we're working 7 days and we're working 14-hour days, so You know, again, it comes back to this sort of bit of a toxic way that we sometimes approach construction projects. But for this period of time over the next 4 weeks, that's what we're looking at. And so I'm sitting out here and I'm working the weekends and I'm coming in and doing that because why would I expect these people to do it if I'm not prepared to help them do it? It's just, you know, I just think that the whole leadership model in terms of how we integrate with our teams, if we really want to get those relationships and have that psychological safety for them to make them feel valued and looked after, you need to be prepared to get in the trenches with them physically.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, like, Beth, that's great. And I just want to ask you, with regards to, you know, we know construction is long hours, and it's a really hard, toxic industry to work in as a whole. And I know you speak a lot on, you know, for men and women, or, you know, all genders, there's a lot of complex issues. And what are some of the things you're seeing at the moment? And, you know, there's a lot of drug, alcohol addiction. Is there anything changing or is it pretty much the status quo, you know, in your 25-year career?

I think definitely the conversation is changing around acknowledging there's issues and I guess that's the first step, right, is acknowledging the existence of it and then saying how do we fix it. I think for a long time we didn't want to acknowledge it. We just went, oh, this is construction and this is how we are. What we started to sort of then see more and more and experience more and more. And I can guarantee, Jess, if you speak to anyone in construction, they'll tell you they know someone who has taken their life who worked in construction. You know, the suicide rates are astronomical. I've lost 6 close friends. You know, we recently here had a, you know, someone who was related to someone on this site who took their life who worked in the industry. Like, it's all around us and it's born from our environment that we work in. And there's no denying that. And I guess You know, what I do is— I'm sure you know Alison Myhrems from Roberts Co. So, she's been my mentor for a long time now, 15 or more years now. And, you know, she advocates strongly about 5-day work weeks and that work-life balance. Yeah. So, typically we work 5-day work weeks. You know, the particular instance that we have on this site was born about a piece of work that had to be done. To a timeframe. But any other side of that, we work 5 days a week. And we're very adamant on that when we're tendering projects and programming projects, that there is no reason why we should have to work more than 10 hours a day. And we shouldn't be working 6 days a week. And so, we advocate strongly. We find that it works. We find that our staff are happier. They're more rested. Their interactions with each other are a lot more positive. And so, I think more and more the industry needs to start to shift and acknowledge that that needs to be the status quo. In terms of the issues, yeah, absolutely. I mean, for men and women, I mean, you know, ask any guy that's recently had a child who works in construction and ask him how much time he had off to actually be with his newborn child. You know, they would be lucky to get 2 weeks. And then after that, and so, you know, the blokes to some extent are kind of hindered because 'Oh, well, you're not a good father because you're not at home, you're always at work, you're always doing these hours.' But then likewise, 'Oh, but we're not going to give you the time off and we're not going to give you the opportunity to have paternity leave and do those things you need to do to actually help your partner at home deal with what they have to.' So, we've got this real double-edged sword where, you know, yes, I want to see more women in construction, but until we improve the conditions in construction for men and women, what, you know, why would women be attracted to this industry?

Yeah, honestly, when I did FIFO and I was up in Darwin on the project, you know, we were a month away, a month on camp, and a week off. Sometimes this got extended. I did, I think the longest I did was like a 10-week swing. Yeah, it's just honestly so fatiguing. But I completely agree with you, there's no— and the marital breakdowns, the people with mental health and suicide and a lot of things, like there were people that had turned because they'd be long, like, you know, I call them the dinosaurs. They've been in construction long term. They were the Fightful for Life guys, but they were their fourth wife, a lot of them, and they're just like, we can't sustain a relationship. Which I found is interesting. So my— where we live in Orange, and my partner works in the gold mine out here, and we moved here, um, you know, we moved for the jobs, uh, I'm no longer full-time in the industry, but I said to him, like, when we got in a relationship, I said, I'd rather you work a city construction job for less money and have a quality of life. Yeah, be on the end of the phone, because I was on the other side of like seeing the long-term effects. Thankfully we moved to Orange Net on this work on the doorstep, but it's so challenging for families and women as well, you know, how do you have that balance? And I remember being told in an open meeting that, "Oh well, you're a ticking time bomb, hey?" So, you know, you're going to have kids, so yeah, you're a ticking time bomb. And I can just remember just being like mortified, embarrassed, humiliated. Yeah, so it's just so interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, we, so we, our safety coordinator on this project, so she's a mum, she has two young boys and she's still breastfeeding. So she worked for us 3 days a week and we set up a breastfeeding room for her because she obviously still has to do that. And so had the conversation with the guys and said, look guys, we've got this special area and Crystal will be using this area and this is what we need to do. And some of them kind of were like, I don't quite understand the mechanics of this, but okay. And then other guys were like, yep, no problem. There was no negativity around it. They were just like, oh, okay, this needs to happen. But it's kind of like, that's, you know, that's a very small thing that we've done, but that allows her to come to work for 3 days a week and start to, you know, get back into the industry that she wants to, what she wants to work in. And so, you know, let alone, you know, working from home flexibilities and other flexibilities that we need to build in. And I mean, has COVID taught us nothing about how mobile we can be? And certainly, you know, there are site-based roles where you physically have to be there and do things, but there's certainly a lot of other construction roles that we have now proven you don't need to be sitting here on site to do that.

No, you don't. And like, honestly, that's amazing. You're really leading the way with the change, and I appreciate you sharing all this with us. I also read that you've now got a 42% gender ratio split.

Yep, yep. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. So our sort of, I guess, how we approach our recruitment and attracting people to the business is that we want to give both men and women the opportunity. But certainly we know that women will also undersell themselves for almost every role that they go for. And it's always interesting to me interviewing people. And generally the guys will come in and they have that confidence level and they'll talk about how qualified they are and how experienced they are and all the wonderful things they've done. And a woman will come and go, "Oh, well, I could probably still improve on this," or, "I'm not quite there yet." And it's that difference in terms of going, "No, no, no, no, no." And even with salary, which is always a bit of an intimidating conversation for people, and women will always undersell themselves in terms of their remuneration, and it's just shocking to me. So, I think we're starting to sort of become known that we will certainly give women the opportunity if they're willing to embrace it and tackle it. We open the door.

Yeah, definitely. I was just reflecting on the time when I was told to be grateful for the job.

Oh yeah, I've been told that.

And I also, when I was being paid half my peer doing the same role, half, when I questioned it, I got told, "Well, you're earning more money than what you would in the UK." I went, "Yeah, but I'm paying tax and living in Australia." Like, that's not a comparison. "You just should be grateful you've got a job." Yep, yep, absolutely.

Yep, I got told that when I was getting paid a third of the guys that I was working with as well, and it seems to be the standard line that they trot out to make you feel crap about yourself.

So yeah, you're a very busy person, like a lot has been in place. And also I wanted to find out a bit more about Build Like a Girl.

Yep, yep.

Like all about that.

Um, yeah, so look, that was born out of pure frustration. So that was, that was something that happened, um, so last year during COVID um, and sort of stepping into the business in Cairns and doing a bunch of things I was having a lot of women approach me about wanting to get into trade work and other things, and they were basically experiencing the same things I'd experienced, like almost identical statements and responses that I'd experienced 24 years ago.

I was gonna say, 24 years!

And I'm like, and I sort of, this sort of anger just started bubbling away in me, and it just kept growing and growing, and I'm like, surely after 2 decades this can't be happening, this can't be real. And the more I spoke to these individuals, the more I realised just how bad it was. And so, I basically, you know, this thing had been bubbling in my head for about 10 years and I sat there one weekend and just kind of put down on paper all the things that need to happen to get more women into construction and particularly into trade roles. And so, obviously, I've done work with NAWIC, I'm, you know, great, great friends with Tradeswomen Australia Foundation, Construction down in Melbourne. We're working closely now with the YWCA in Canberra and their social housing stuff.

Can you just go on about NAWIC for anyone listening that doesn't know what that is?

So, the National Association of Women in Construction. Yeah. So, they do a lot of stuff, advocacy work and so forth as well. But I guess there was this missing piece of tradeswomen, and lots of people are trying to piece it together. And I guess for me, I sat there and said, right, You know, we need to educate, you know, basically primary school age kids around stigma and making it very normal for them to see, you know, women in hard hats and IVs. And then Year 9 and 10, we need to encourage at that point in time for them to get out and get some work experience and actually start seeing it as a viable career. The ASBA programs, which is the Australian School Based Apprenticeships, you know, in Year 11 and 12, need to be done en masse with lots of industry engagement to get employment. And then we need to catch them after that fact and actually get them into employment and get them signed up into apprenticeships. And that's kind of one pipeline. And then you've got a whole other demographic of women who are marginalized based on other, you know, socioeconomic reasons that we need to encourage them because they're the ones who have been affected by COVID and who are underemployed and, you know, not financially independent. And so there's a cohort of women there. You know, government needs to work harder on their procurement in terms of mandating, you know, quotas instead of wishy-washy 10% targets that are lower than the standard average. And then industry needs to engage and actually say, yes, we're going to employ more women in our business because we see the benefit. So I kind of dumped all that on some paper and went, here's a flaky logo, here's what we need to do. And since then, we've kind of gone bang. And so, yeah, so it's a bit of a, you know, I started off as a bit of a side gig and I thought, I'll just help, you know, a few young women here and there gain apprenticeships. And at the moment, I think this year we've managed to employ 12. We've done our first pilot Pathways program. We're, you know, talking to other governments and other states now about how to advise them. We've got companies reaching out to help us with their culture in terms of their business and how they can attract women to their business. There's lots of stuff going on and lots of plans for next year, so it's all kind of exploded. So I'm not quite sure where to fit that in, but we will, we'll find a way.

Absolutely. Congratulations, 12 people have now found apprentices in year 1 of the business.

So I can only imagine—

my mind is going all the impact this can have over the next decade and beyond. And the fact that it's not just placing people in apprenticeships but also that piece which I'm passionate about is educating people on the culture because it's all very well, you know, placing people in apprenticeships but if we don't create that cultural change— and I was doing some work and discussing with, you know, Master Builders and then also Apprentices Australia or something about like how low we are, or the percentage of people, the retention rate of apprenticeships.

Yeah, yeah.

Because of the toxic cultures a lot of the time.

Yeah, I think the dropout rate in the first year is 74%. So that's for the women. I think it's 44% for the guys.

Yeah.

And I mean, that's crazy. I mean, that's in the first 12 months of their career that they're actually trying to find their feet, and we're losing them in the first year. It's like, it's nuts.

Like petrifying. When I go talk to Year 11 and 12 in school and I talk around workplace bullying and share my story and give them some education, a lot of the time they're like, "I did not know you could get bullied as an adult in the workplace." Oh God, yeah. And that was really for me in my early career. It took me probably a year to admit that I was experiencing bullying because again, like, I'm strong, I'm confident, you know, I'm not being bullied to admitting, actually, I am being bullied and it's not because I'm incompetent, it's because I'm highly competent. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm doing everything. Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of, it's interesting. I mean, I took on the DAM role at Kaine and unfortunately some individuals in the business who were new didn't like having a female boss. And I was actually, it was a reverse bullying case where, you know, even though I suppose technically I was in that position of power, I was actually being sort of, you know, bullied from the other end of the spectrum. And I was kind of like, this is a bit surreal and a bit kind of odd to deal with. So, I mean, yes, it happens to everybody at every level in every different way. It's prevalent and horrible.

Yeah, I think you made just such a valid point there because we think that bullying, you know, it either happens with peers or colleagues, always like usually the manager. That's like the myth I usually here. But yeah, being upward bullied, and I see it when people move into leading hand or supervisors or managers, but it's interesting they didn't want to be led by a woman. Yeah, yeah, a lot of work to be done, Jo.

Yes, yes, but look, it's— there's stuff happening, and I suppose I always say, yes, there's a whole lot of stuff to fix, and, and yes, there are still significant issues, but there is definitely a shift. There's a change in the wind and you can kind of see that there's really two distinct trains of thought. There's those who just don't want to change and they are becoming the minority. And then there's, you know, everybody else who understands we need to change and we need to actually fix things for the benefit of everybody. So I do really feel like there has been a big shift over the past couple of years and can generally say that the things are changing. And even behaviors, you know, on the sites that I'm on, like this one today, how they interact and speak with each other and You know, it's definitely different to what I've known, you know, sort of a decade or two decades ago. So if there's anything positive we can take away, it's that there is a definite, you know, a change in the air that I think is happening. Yeah.

Yeah. And change, like when I start working with companies and, you know, even industries, I say like changes are going to happen overnight, but it's just that constant 1% each day calling things out and then the cultural shifts over time. But yeah, take a lot of work. Yeah, you're in the forefront of that work, so thank you for your challenging experiences and adversity to becoming a powerhouse, shifting some mindsets in the industry.

No, no, that's great to talk to you all about it as well. So I really admire all the work that you do as well. It's amazing.

Yeah, thank you. And I'm just going to leave it on a final note. What advice would you give to listen. Let's look at, you know, what advice would you give to a man who's listening to this? What could they do to shift this whole stigma and overcome this sexism? What could they do individually?

Oh, look, I think that most men know what they need to do, I guess. Have the courage to stand up, because as soon as you stand up, everyone else is going to stand up with you. It only takes that one, you know, act of defiance to actually call out. And I guess you know, understand that we're just here trying to do our job. We're exactly the same as you. It's no different. And construction shouldn't have any gender attachment whatsoever, or, you know, ableism attachment, or racial attachment. We're all just people that are trying to do the same thing. So, I think if we sort of have that in the back of our mind and always have that equality at the forefront, we can't go wrong. And it's just going to make the workplaces like this a lot nicer to actually, you know, be on and to do the work.

Yeah, that's great. And if anyone's listening that wants to get involved or learn more about becoming an apprentice or stepping into the industry, where can they find more info?

Is it on your website? Yeah, so buildlikeagirl.org.au. So we're updating our website at the moment with a lot of resources around the pathway programs we're bringing out next year and lots of other things. But I mean, if anyone's got any questions, just send us a note. We respond to everything and happy to chat to anyone who's interested in becoming an apprentice and helping guide through the process.

Yeah, thanks Jo, and that mentorship piece that you've mentioned, I think that's— if someone listening hasn't got a mentor or someone they can get advice on, reach out and, you know, there's a lot of programs— Women in Construction, Construction Master Builders, there's lots of places where people can actually lean on support.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you so much, I appreciate you stepping into the park to get this.

Yeah, it's a busy day. I'll show you another— it's Definitely, it's just crazy. I think we have 13 or 14 excavators on the site today. So yeah, definitely all happening.

How many staff have you got on that project?

We've got 140 today. So yeah, it's quite a few bodies around. So yeah, it's good.

How many people in Cairn as a whole?

Oh, whether nationally or in— so nationally, oh, there's about— there's over 500 of us I think now. In ACT, we're pretty small. There's about 20 of us at the moment. And yeah, we'll be looking to sort of grow a little bit next year. So that's exciting. Well, good luck.

Sounds like you're on some big projects.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Stay in touch. Yeah, excellent. Thanks so much, Jess.