A Brother's Story

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I'm here with the empathetic Ian Wilkes. How's that, Ian?

That's great. Thank you, Jim. Thank you. I, I love that we come up with these new, well, single word descriptions. It's fun.

Well, we're gonna run out of positive ones and so we're gonna have to start going into negative ones.

I'm quite happy about that 'cause I quite like on the Marvel Comics and DC Comics or the, the movies, I, I quite like some of the villains, you know?

Yeah. So the sinister Ian Wilkes, the sinister Ian Wilkes.

Yeah. So I'm, I'm cool if it's a little bit, a little bit darker.

So, So, yeah, I think empathetic applies to the topic we're going to discuss today because you've been a little bit coy in terms of talking about this, but you have said you want to share a personal experience that I think will be of interest to our listeners and will be of interest to me. I'm very excited to hear what it is. So I just am going to kick this off and and punt it over to you and let you tell your story.

Thank you, Jim Bennett, and I'm grateful for this opportunity to share this experience. I'm not reading from a script or any notes. Perhaps I should, or some guidelines, but I'm just going to speak from memory and from my heart and from the experience because I think it will I think it has the potential to help some people at least. And I don't know how to get into this, so I'll just see how this goes and I'll do my very best. This is a very private, very personal experience. Years ago, the very thought of opening up and talking about this, it would've terrified me. I'm a very private and very personal individual, um, uh, in terms of some of the experiences. I keep a lot to myself. It might sound strange having a podcast talking about things and saying that we're quite private, but the podcast, this Project Experience, has actually helped me open up and, and talk about things in a way that I haven't talked about before, uh, in the hope that it might help me, and it has enormously. And you and I talked about that before we did the podcast, and I still get a lot of, um, uh, benefit personally by talking about these things on the podcast. Some things are difficult to talk about, other things are easier. And I'm reminded, Jim Bennett, about some of the extraordinary people that have been under the podcast, people like James and Chelsea and, and other people who have been incredibly courageous and brave. And I just, I just can't imagine how I could even open up and talk about something like that. But I wanted to talk about this for quite some time. It is a very private and personal experience. And as I say, I think it will, I hope it will help someone out there. And so how do I, how do I begin this? So as you know, as, as I've shared on earlier podcasts, I grew up in a a tough working-class coal mining community in Yorkshire in the north of England. We grew up in a single-parent family. The neighborhood was, it was very poor. It was a council estate, and we've talked about what that is. That's like a state-owned, funded, operate social housing. We used to pay rent, I think £40 a week. That was quite cheap, you know, back then in the '70s and '80s. Most people in those communities had little or nothing. We used to borrow food off each other, you know. I used to go around to the neighbors, knock on the door, and borrow a cup of sugar or some cigarettes or £5 until my mum got the dole on Monday morning. So people were borrowing off each other all the time, or, can we borrow a bucket of coal? It was a A very close community, but it was quite fractured in terms of crime and, you know, petty crime usually. There was no drugs, nothing like that, no gun-related issues, probably some minor drug-related issues, but it was more people falling out and fighting. Actually, not with knives, nothing like that. It was the old-fashioned fisticuffs. He would scrap in the streets and And people would fight each other and then they'd make friends, uh, usually, not always, but usually that kind of make up. So it's a very tough neighborhood, um, again, working class. And he had these public comprehensive schools that we all went to, the same school. So we all grew up with each other. And, um, over the years, you know, I, I forged amazing relationships with people that, um, used to be— we used to scrap with in the streets, or we used to fight with. And these people come to the school reunion and I've become very fond of them actually and grown to, uh, grown to love them. And it's a very unique and distinct culture, uh, growing up in a, a— well, growing up in the '70s and '80s in the, on a British Northern England council estate, quite an interesting experience that I think probably only people who've gone through experience really fully understand. And so as a single-parent family, my mum, um, uh, what happened with my mum when she was 16 She, uh, got herself pregnant. She, uh, back then in the '50s, um, it was, uh, those kind of events back then in England brought a huge amount of shame, um, on the family name. It was a very conservative, traditional, old-fashioned British way of of, um, you know, some of those thinking, if you like, mindset. And so for a young girl at the age of 16 at the time to get to become pregnant, uh, was what brought a lot of shame to the families. And, um, my mom, my mom's parents were very angry, very upset, and actually threw her out of the house when she was 16. And she was forced to give the, um, that child up for adoption. So I have, uh, a brother out there that I've never met. Years later, my mom had, uh, another, uh, child that, um, from my understanding, uh, was, uh, sadly was stillborn. And so that was a, a traumatic experience for my mother. And then, um, and then after that, uh, she had, uh, 5 children, uh, oldest was Stephen, uh, David, Paul, uh, myself and Michael. Um, Stephen, David and Paul were born from a different father and who I never met, and his last name was Wilkes. And Michael and I, the youngest, were born from a, another man, um, a man by the name of Gerald Crabtree. So my last name technically is not Wilkes. Although I can understand why my mother kept that name, and I have no problem with that, but I've never met, um, the man whose name that I carry. The oldest brother was Stephen, and he, uh, as I mentioned, I think on an earlier podcast, he was, um, sadly, when he was 19, he was in a motorbike accident and he lost his life. And it was a very, um, terrible accident, and he was placed on a machine and there was no hope of him recovering from that, uh, awful experience. His body was broken, and my mum was faced with a decision, uh, to turn off the machine, which she, she was advised to do so. And that was a very emotional day. I'll never forget that. And so she turned off the machine. Stephen sadly passed away. This is going back to, um, I think 1975 now. I knew him knew Stephen briefly, uh, from memory, just as a, you know, his younger sibling. I didn't see much of him, but I do remember him. And I always remember he was very, um, kind and funny and towards me, but I didn't know him that well. And now therefore we had, uh, who was left was, uh, David, Paul, myself, and my younger brother Michael. And so there we were in, in this council estate growing up single-parent family, and we did the best we could. We went to school, kind of scraped through school, got very little help at home. There was— we really didn't— I can't remember doing much homework at home, or what I did, it was pretty much on my own. And just scraped through school, I think, in high school with very little support. At that particular time. After-school activities was different. We, um, all the boys there, we enrolled into, uh, the— my oldest brother David was in the Air Cadets. He did really well. Uh, Paul and myself and Michael, uh, joined the Sea Cadets. And Paul was, um, very successful in the Sea Cadets, and he was— of the family members, I think he would I would describe him as one of the most charismatic individuals I've met. And it's Paul that I want to talk about tonight because there's been some very profound experiences that I, you know, I would like to share because I think it will help someone out there. And so at the time, growing up in that place at that time, as I shared before, we were not a close family. We didn't talk to each other about feelings or thoughts. Any problems we had, we just kept to ourselves. I don't think that was unique to our family. I think that was fairly common across the friends that I knew at that time. And so talking about emotions or feelings or problems, it just wasn't something that we did. And I think that— excuse me, excuse me— in hindsight, you know, looking back about mental health and emotional health, I think that Uh, was a, was a mistake. I think that was a problem. And so we weren't— I say, when Stephen passed away, instead of it bringing us close together, which happens many times I think in families where people come together, it actually had the opposite effect and it tore us apart. I remember that the vicar came around and he was planning and organizing the funeral for Stephen, who was only 19 when he, uh, was in the motorbike accident., and it was a very, um, cold experience and a very lonely experience. And it was just a more organizing logistics with Stephen. My mum, of course, was distraught. I was too young to try to make sense of what was going on, but it didn't bring us together. It, it pushed us apart. We didn't open up or talk about what happened there, and our relationships within the family, for me at least, were, were quite distant. Uh, my relationship with mother— my mother became quite strained at the age of 13, 14, and I was frequently referred to as the black sheep of the family. I think because I would maybe answer back, or at the time I look back and I wasn't answering back, I was trying to ask questions or try to figure out why, and it was interpreted as answer back. So my relationship with my mom became very fraught and, um, extremely difficult for me, and, uh long periods of, of, um, just not having a really good, just a normal relationship with my mother. Um, I, I think that's probably the same for my brothers as well. They didn't have the kind of relationship that they could have and should have had with my mom. I think some of the experiences that my mom went through when she was younger, and I want share them here, um, because I don't know how to talk about them, um, and I don't think I have the strength to— the emotional strength to get into those things. But she went through a very traumatic, um, childhood, and there were times in life where it was extremely difficult. And unfortunately, I think that affected her ability to, to have, uh, relationships with, um, with her children. And so we have this, uh, Dysfunctional family, financially we're struggling, school's not going great, but we're just scraping through. And, um, but I, I think the after-school activities was probably the very few things that went well. As I say, David, um, was in the Air Cadets, he did really well. Uh, Paul, uh, the charismatic one, joined the Sea Cadets, and Michael and Paul and I followed him. And Paul was very popular, um, in the area at school. I think he did okay at school. I think he was pretty good at art, and he had some amazing friends. And when he went to the Sea Cadets, he was very popular and very charismatic and very confident, and people that met him just fell in love with him. Um, unfortunately, uh, that, um, his efforts in developing those relationships, or his focus, was mostly, almost entirely in my experience at least, focused on relationships outside of the family. His ability to develop relationships inside the family was, um, it just wasn't of interest to him. He didn't really respect members of his family. He certainly didn't respect myself and my younger brother. I think he had more respect for David, the older brother. But there's, there's a quite a few memories and experiences where Paul um, bullied myself somewhat, and, and more so bullied my younger brother, uh, Michael. And we didn't have a good relationship with Paul at all. He was, um, I found him to be, um, and I— this is the bit where I struggle because he's my brother and I love him, but I didn't like him at all. He was, he was a bully, uh, he, um, didn't speak very nicely or kindly to Michael or I. And, uh, all these things went on for quite some time, were noticed. And even at the Secrets, there was moments where he would take Michael and I to the side and have some very harsh words and speak to us and treat us quite differently. And then in public, you know, open with the rest of the Secrets, he was a very different personality. And it was like a Jekyll and Hyde. It was, um, very positive, you know, towards people on the outside of the family and very charismatic. He's incredibly popular and make people laugh and is funny. But internally in the family, he was, um, he was quite destructive and, uh, emotionally quite, uh, abusive. Um, when I, um— and so our relation— we didn't really have a relationship. Jim Bennett— I didn't have that relationship with him, with Paul. Michael certainly didn't. David had some level of relationship with Paul. And then when I joined the church at age 16 and was told to leave, as you know, in that earlier podcast we had, I left and I went to stay with a bishop in the Wakefield wards, a wonderful family who took me in and looked after me. And I went to college, as you know, at that particular time in that area. And the church and the bishop there took me in. And so my, um, any, uh, I think it was the last time I saw Paul, um, for quite some time. He never reached out to me and where— under where I was. None of my siblings really did. Again, we were not a close family at all, very dysfunctional and not connected emotionally almost in any way. And so I think a few years went past before I had any contact with Paul. I got a letter from him maybe 3 years after I left home, and he joined the army and began a very successful career in the British Army. Uh, he trained at Catterick in England, which, uh, is a, a big military training, uh, base. He then went to Germany to do some more training and did extremely well there. He then went to, uh, Northern Ireland and actually, uh, was a, a, uh, a soldier for the British Army in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. He excelled in the Army. He was very successful, and he rose up to some— through the junior and middle-level ranking. I'm not sure what he— the level he got to, but he did very well in the military. And then after the Northern Ireland period of time, Again, you should know that from the history that there was, there was some serious troubles there back in the, uh, in the '80s, you know, with the IRA and, and the, um, uh, the Ulster, uh, defense, uh, groups, etc. A lot of, uh, problems there, and the British Army was heavily involved in that. And Paul was right on the front lines as a young soldier, uh, dealing with all those issues. And then later he was assigned to fight in the Falklands War, as you know, back in the '80s, I think it's '82 or around about the time, uh, Britain, uh, and Argentina had a big fallout over the Falklands War. Uh, it was, uh, I don't know the history, but I think it was colonized way back by, uh, Britain, and there was a British colony down there, and it was, um, brought in under the British Sovereign Act, I think it was, and became part of the UK And then when it was attacked, uh, by Argentina, uh, at that time, Britain went to war, uh, with Argentina. It was a, a short war, and I think Britain, obviously Britain retained the Falkland War, uh, Falkland Islands at that time. And Paul was very much part of that, um, that event. And, uh, again, he was a great soldier, very successful.. He came back and began a career in, I think he was doing, dealing with pipelines and was doing quite well on infrastructure and pipelines, et cetera. And so him and I, he would write to me and I'd write back and we had a, you know, an okay relationship through the letters, but he would write to me and tell me all that he's doing and he was talking about all of his successes and what he's doing, which was great. In the letters, there was no reference about, uh, you know, what I was up to or what I was doing. I'd share with him what I was doing, but I never got any— never acknowledgement on terms of what I was doing with my work or college. Um, you know, it was— I don't know, we just didn't have that relationship, or he wasn't interested in me to— I would ask him about what he's doing and what he's up to, and, and, uh, you know, I would acknowledge his amazing achievements in the military. And of course, after he came out of the military, and he was, I think anything he touched, it just turned to gold. And there was a time, I think when I was in the Secrets, Michael and I, I remember feeling at the time a little bit of jealousy. I didn't have the confidence or self-esteem he did. Michael certainly didn't. And he was so popular. I just wished I could just be more like him. And I tried to talk to him at that time and, you know, try open up and try to help me to become more confident like he was. And, and that, um, conversation never happened. Uh, but I, I always looked up to him even though, um, it was one-sided. Um, and he was the strong one, the confident one. I, I did, I did admire him and I did look up to him. And I, for a long time, I wanted to be like him actually. If truth be told. And I think Michael did to some extent as well. But anyway, after the military, he came out and he had a pretty good job, a career in a number of really good jobs in pipeline infrastructure. And at this time, I'd, you know, I'd been on a mission, I'd come back, I'd married, I'd set up a company, and I was trying to find my own way. And Paul, um, would call me, uh, from time to time. And every time he called me, it was usually because he wanted something— either money or a reference for a job or something. Uh, there was always a request at the end of it. It was never a phone call to, um, you know, ask me how we're doing and how is the farmer doing. And call him or phone him and ask him what he's up to, and, and, um, got very little back in terms of interest. He was just— I guess he just wasn't interested really in what we were doing or we were up to. And as I say, he was always calling when he needed something or wanted something. And there was a time, Jim, that he needed work, um, so he'd lost his job. I um, gave him work. Uh, this was dealing with taking care of decommissioning of equipment. The company was going well. I was involved in petroleum equipment, oil and gas manufacturing equipment. Company had been established 2 or 3 years. It was doing quite well financially. We were doing quite well, and there was actually quite a bit of work to decommission some of these machines. And so I decided to help him and say, okay, I'll give you some work, and gave him this, this job. And he, uh, I think the first week, um, unfortunately got the company into some serious trouble on this particular assignment and basically had dropped, uh, the machine, didn't follow some instructions, used a forklift truck dropped, dropped, uh, a really important part of this machine that we were decommissioning from this manufacturing operation. And I got a call from the, um, the client, and I'd sold the machine, so I'd bought the machine, I'd sold the machine already, already invoiced the machine. And the, the, the stories I was getting is that the machine was now worth scrap. And this was a very expensive quarter million pound, or maybe $350,000, $400,000 piece of equipment, which for a small company, that's a lot. So, you know, I was panicking. I was trying to call Paul, see what happened. I called some of the crew members that were on the job and heard that he had been told not to do something and he went ahead anyhow, and the machine had dropped. And it was— these machines are extrusion machines. They manufacture plastics. The extrusion part of the machine, that's the heart of the machine. So without that, you really— the machine is no good, really. The rest is just ancillary equipment. And so anyway, he— I called him, he never, he never returned my call, um, ever. So he disappeared, didn't return the call. Um, good news is that the machine wasn't as damaged as, as we, uh, as we thought, and was able to, uh, refurbish it. Uh, it cost all the profit for the machine, so I didn't make anything, but I didn't lose anything either. So that was, that was a good thing. I was quite, quite lucky. But despite lots of calls to Paul to find out, you know, what happened, where was he, why didn't he return my call, uh, there was no, um, no response. He just never called. And I think 2, 3 weeks went past of complete radio silence and didn't even bother to call me. And then I think maybe a month, probably 3 weeks, 4 weeks went past. I got this call and, um, he called me and he just talked to me. So as though nothing had happened. I was absolutely flabbergasted, stunned. And, uh, he said, look, I, um, I'm wondering if you can give me a reference for a job. I said, Paul, I said, you've just disappeared for 4 weeks, you know, you dropped the machine. I've been trying to call you. Do you have any idea what, um, what happened? Do you even care what happened? Um, we could have lost our business if this company would have sued it. Would have put the business into receivership. I think it was such a, you know, a big contract for a small developing company at the time. We weren't established or weren't strong enough financially to carry that kind of risk or that kind of loss. And I asked him why he called me back, and he said, well, he's been busy and he's been looking for work, and would I give him a reference. And I said— there was no apology, nothing like that., and it was, you know, it was just Paul all over again. And so I said I'd think about it, and so we, you know, my wife and I spoke about, about the situation and thought, well, you know, I'm in the church, obviously in the church at the time, active, you know, we teach forgiveness and repentance, and I thought, well, if I'm gonna teach this stuff, I might as well live it. I didn't want to. I felt quite angry, quite hurt, but I thought, well, 'You know, let's, um, let's just do the right thing.' So called him back and said, 'Yeah, you know, we'll give you a reference.' So, um, I gave him a reference, helped him get this job. That was fine. And then, um, at that time we got— I think, well, I think I probably didn't hear from him for quite some time. The company got stronger, which is good financially, and, um, and so we, um, uh, we recovered from that. I think then maybe Could it be maybe 10 months later, got this call and he asked for some money. He asked for— he needed some money to get him through a difficult patch. He'd lost his job again and would we help him? So I asked him how much and I think he said maybe, you know, £1,000 to £1,500. So not a huge amount. So we said, sure, you know, we won't do it as a loan because I, I never believed we would ever, you know, get it paid back. I think when you, you know, when you're loaning friends or family money, I think it's probably wiser to give them the money, right? If, if you— you can lose a friendship or a family relationship if you loan and they can't pay back. So I thought the best thing to do, and again, discussion with my wife, is, is to give him the money. So that was it, we gave the money because with no expectations then. And he said, thank you, and I'll pay you back. I said, no, no, don't pay us back, it's all good, just keep it, just do it. And then he came back a few months later requesting again, and we said no. I said, you really gotta get yourself on your feet now, we've already helped you. And then we didn't hear from him for a while, and then a call out of the blue came and said he needed to get to this other job for an interview, could he borrow my car? And I said, oh, I said, well, you catch the bus, because in the UK there's public transport everywhere. You can catch a bus every 10 minutes, 15 minutes, you're gonna take you any direction you want. You know, Jim Bennett, you've lived in the UK, right? And so anyway, he said, no, no, he said, it'll look good if I can show up in your car. We had a pretty nice car, and he felt that if he showed up in the car, um, that he would get— they would look successful and get the job. And, uh, I said, no, you're not borrowing the car. So didn't hear from him for a week. Got another call, can I borrow your car, please, please let me borrow the car. So anyway, I let him, like a fool, um, persuade me to loan him the car. So he came over and, uh, got the keys for the car and then disappeared. For this so-called interview. And then, um, hours went past, dinner time, 5 o'clock, 6 o'clock, I call him, no answer. Um, 8, 9 o'clock at night, call him, there's no answer. I have no idea where my car is at this point. And 10, 11 o'clock, no answer. And then at about 11, 11:30, got a call from the police saying my car had been found uh, or reported rather, at the side of the road, and, um, smoke was coming from the, the engine. And so I was like, oh my goodness, what's happened now? So we, we had another vehicle, went over, looked at the vehicle. It was, um, lifted the hood, uh, there was parts of the engine that was underneath the, the hood. Um, it was in a pretty bad— there was a, a ding at the back. Um, and you know, when the towing company came to collect it, they basically said whoever's driven this has driven it like a, you know, like a racer. Uh, they'd blown the engine up. It'd blown— what he'd done, it revved it, um, so high the engine has blown up. Literally blew the engine up. And it's just been racing around like a like a, a kid, you know. Um, and so, and then he, he'd gone. He just left the vehicle there and, and, uh, disappeared. And so we, um, we had that mess to, to deal with. And so I didn't hear from him, uh, you know, for quite some time. And then he called up again out the blue. And at this time though, at this point, um, my wife and I had, had had enough and had some pretty strong words with him over the phone, and there was no apology, nothing like that. And so any relationship that we had, which was virtually non-existent, frankly, and very one-sided, you know, evaporated. Uh, we had no time for him, no respect for him, and felt very hurt and very angry. And I felt quite stupid, quite foolish, actually, you know, giving in all the time. Or— and there were many things, Jim, that, um, he wanted or needed in between these different events that we haven't got time to go into. But it was just a long, you know, history of needing or wanting something. It was all very one-sided and we felt quite used. And so at that time, I think a number of years went past and we'd meet up now and again with David, and the relationship was, um, strained and awkward. And it was, um, you know, being polite and civil, and, um, he would talk to us as though nothing's happened, but it was just so hard to move away from that. And I felt angry towards him, um, I didn't hate him, but I didn't like him, and I felt very hurt and very betrayed by him, and So, you know, very foolish and quite used. And, uh, and so anyway, he, he, um, I think another year went, went by, and then, um, uh, I think his girlfriend called, or it might have been David, I can't remember, but we heard that he, um— I just want to add this other thing as well, this is a really important thing. 2 things actually before I share this part of the story. Paul always felt invincible. He would always say, if he gets knocked down, he get up again. You know that song that, that, uh, we know, right? He was successful in the Secret, in the military, some of his jobs were successful earlier, earlier on, etc. He was invincible. He thought he was invisible, could do anything, go anywhere. He would travel up and down the country in the UK and go to Scotland and all these places, and he would actually drive into these very big wealthy private estates in Scotland and Yorkshire owned by private ownership. And he'd drive pretending he hadn't seen the signs, drive around or walk around. The landowner would come and see him or someone would see him and tell him to get off and he would act all innocently. But by that time he's driven around, he's walked around the estate. He never asked for permission to do anything. He just did it. He didn't He didn't believe rules applied to him, and he didn't think that he could— he felt he could conquer anything in life. He could overcome— he'd seen things in the military, there's nothing he could overcome. He was invincible, he was untouchable, and that was his attitude. He didn't care about a lot of things. And when I did ask him about certain things, you know, does that not bother you? He said, nope, just push it off, not bothered. They don't like it, to shit. And that was his attitude. It was a careless attitude. He would go and do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, how he wanted, on his terms. That was his philosophy in life. And so when I got a call from, I think it was David, or I can't remember if it was his girlfriend, um, at the time, uh, Paul, I learned, had, um, contracted cancer. And so, uh, of course that was, uh, awful news. And so we, uh, got together with him, uh, very soon after. And this was in Castleford. We, we were living in the UK at the time, so this is before we came to Canada. And we met and, uh, he, you could see Jim, the early stages of the disease, but very early stages. Um, he'd just been diagnosed with it, but he was very upbeat. He said he was going to conquer it and overcome it. So I think I said that was great, Paul, and I think it's fantastic to have such an amazing attitude like that. You know, you can feel so strong with his resilience. He said, I'm going to overcome this. He said, I've overcome everything else and this is not going to beat me. And to show his confidence in his future, he'd saved some money up, but he decided to spend it on a brand new BMW. And there he was, um, with us, showing off his, his new BMW, um, his pride and joy. And he just felt completely— even though he'd been diagnosed, he felt completely, um, uh, invincible and resilient. And I said, I said, you can do this. I said, you'll get through this. And a lot of this is positive attitude. Um, unfortunately, that it doesn't always, um, you know, when you get diagnosed with cancer, the cancer has other ideas, even though we might feel, you know, confident or supremely confident. And over the coming months, Paul, uh, began to, um, you know, his health began to deteriorate. I want to correct something, sorry. We were living in Canada at this time. I apologize, I'm just getting my dates wrong here, my times wrong here. We were getting, um, we were living in, in, um, Canada, and I think when he— the time when he got diagnosed, we'd actually flown over. Sorry, I'm not getting my dates right. We'd flown over and we met him, we spent some time with him and others, of course, and then we came back to Canada. And then it was the, the commencing, uh, the months commencing that he began to deteriorate somewhat slowly.. And then we were on— what happened was we kept in touch. He was still hopeful. His girlfriend Linda was worried. It was beginning to spread. And so we got this— we were camping on Vancouver Island, a place that you've been to many times. We were camping near— in Sooke. Which is just southwest of Victoria, British Columbia, in this beautiful bay called Pedder Bay. Beautiful bay. And I got this call saying that, you know, Paul is— I'd not heard from him for a while, and that Paul had, over the last 3 months, the cancer had accelerated significantly, and that he was not expected to live for very long. And would I, uh, could we set up a call? Um, and so, uh, this was happening at the time when we were camping. So within, you know, we were there for a couple of weeks, I think, camping. So within it, I think within 24 hours, would, um, I called him and spoke to him, and he sounded, uh, weak. And, um, And he sounded, for the first time in his life, Jim, very worried and very scared. And I'd never heard that from Paul. Paul was never scared. He was never afraid of anything. He didn't care about anything. He was never afraid of anything. He'd do whatever he wanted, whatever he pleased. But this was a different Paul, and he was afraid. And he was talking to me in a way that, on the phone there, in a way that, um, he hadn't spoken to me before. Like he, he, he needed something, but this time it was different. He needed help. He needed some emotional support. And so I said, Paul, I said, um, and he said, he said, Ian, this is, uh, I don't think I'm going to get through this. And I said, well, what are they saying? And he, he said, it's, it's spread, it's, it's accelerated, and, uh, it doesn't look very good, and he could only have maybe, um, you know, a few days, and so, or maybe a week or two. And so, um, and so I tried to— I gave him some words of encouragement, told him I loved him on the phone. And, uh, he said to me something that, um, after what I said to him, he said something that he'd never said to me before, even probably thought of saying it before. He said to me, um, that I was a tower of strength, end quote. And, uh, for someone who I really didn't like for very long, frankly, um, uh, that was completely unexpected and quite emotional to hear those words from someone like that. And so we, um, we, we, we were then planning, I think at that time, trying to get my— let's get my memory organized there. But spoke to Linda just after I spoke to him, and she said, you really probably need to be planning a trip, you know, if you want to see him before he passes. She gave me more information than Paul did, and she said, Ian, I don't think he's going to be with us for very long. And the cancer, Jim, was— she said that the nurse had told Linda, his girlfriend, that the cancer was burning, I think, 25,000 calories a day. Uh, so as a family, we discussed it and we decided to, um, uh, to obviously cut, uh, cut the holiday short. Obviously, that's what, that's what we wanted to do. That's the right thing to do. That's what we felt we should do immediately. And at the same time, we were trying to find a flight to get back. And so, as you know, you can't always get a flight straight back. You've got to find anything you can very quickly. You can't always fly out within 24 hours. But we quickly and pretty much frantically almost looked for flights, and we were able to get one, I think, within 3 days of coming back from the holiday.. And in the meantime, we'd had another call. So we came back from Victoria, came back home, um, uh, to where we are now. And, uh, within a day or two, we got another phone call saying it, it accelerated. He was deteriorating pretty quickly and that we needed to get there pretty fast. And we would, we would just about, or just book the, the flight. And, um, Linda had said that, um, um, he's probably got— it, it deteriorated so fast, so quickly, even those space a few days, uh, you know, he'd lost his, um, ability to move. He couldn't speak, or he's struggling to speak. He couldn't get his, um, he couldn't speak so much. And this is just before— so we were able to book a flight. I was, I was able to book a flight myself, and I think within maybe 3 or 4 days of the holiday was on a flight And just prior to that, I'd heard that, uh, the last message from Linda was— his girlfriend— was to, um, from the nurse's advice, was to— for me to get over as quick as we can. Um, and so— and then the other, other message I got on the phone call before I headed over there was, um, he might not be with us when you get here. It was, it was happening so quickly. Um, And so I got this flight and within 4 or 5 days or 3 or 4 days after coming back from the holiday, was on the flight praying. At this time I was active in the church, so very active. I think I was on the stake presidency. I was on the flight from Calgary over to Manchester. Flying through the night, praying, crying, hoping that, you know, I could at least see him, you know, before he passed away. I felt this overwhelming— and this is coming to a very personal, very private part of this experience— I had this overwhelming, compelling drive, this feeling that I I needed to be there. Um, he needed to see me even though we had no real relationship. And for some reason, I, I, I needed to be there. And if I was going to, and, and the message was, or the impression I had is that if I do everything I can to get there as quickly as I could, that he would be kept alive and, uh, and that I would, you know, have a few moments, uh, with him. Um, I need to say at this stage that me going over there, um, this is most of my thoughts. I didn't feel it was for me, Jim. It was no— I had no— a very little, um, how can I describe this? I had feelings for him, but they were very new feelings. Uh, you know, I just developed them in, in the experience of being empathetic, um, the word that you used earlier, and sympathetic and compassionate. But there were very new feelings, Jim. I hadn't felt these feelings for him ever, if I'm being honest. So this disease generated or created these feelings in me that I hadn't, um, had before for him. And I didn't feel or think that I needed to go there for me. Um, my, my reason for going there and the impressions or the spiritual impressions I was receiving was for him, not for me. So I thought. And so when I landed in Manchester, I got, I, I, uh, called and Linda said, you know, um, 'cause they were in Leeds, in the Leeds Infirmary, which is another 40 miles away, you need to, you know, he's, he's hanging on. That was the message that got— he can't see, he can't speak. It happened so quickly, uh, gone so quickly, uh, you know, from the call from the holiday, you know, it's like 5 days ago at the time, and to, to where he was now was extraordinary fast. It just— I just couldn't make sense of it. So I got off the plane and I literally ran to the train station, uh, Manchester Airport. You can get the train. I gra— I got on the train and, um, the train goes from Manchester through to Leeds. You have to go through all these tiny villages and towns. And so, uh, so I'd ran to the, to the train and, and, um, where it was, and then I got on the train. And then when the train got stopped at Leeds, I then ran to the taxi, um, taxi rank and, um, told the taxi driver to get me to the Leeds Infirmary as quickly as possible., and, um, it, it did of course. And I got to the hospital and I ran into the building. I ran, didn't walk. I ran to the elevator and I asked, you know, which level I need to be on, and they, they told me. Um, so the elevator went up, and when the elevator, um, uh, opened, I kind of walked very quickly. I got some advice from the nurse where he was, and, um, and then I turned the corner and the room where Paul was with this, David was, well, I'll just step back here. So what happened was the door was, the doors were closed and at that point in time, everything seemed to stop in time. It was almost like frame by frame. And, uh, I remember walking towards the door, um, No idea what to expect. And as I, as the doors opened, um, you know, when I came to the doors at the, that room that Paul was in, uh, and the doors opened, I saw facing me, so the bed was completely, um, facing me with Paul literally sat up facing me. I saw the most shocking, um, uh, awful image that I've never, uh, I can never forget. It was a version of Paul that was, um, I didn't recognize him the first millisecond. I didn't know who he was. He had, uh, he was, he was skeletal, um, a lot worse than what I was told or what body was. Uh, his, um, skin had, uh, like shrink-wrapped around his body. It was— didn't recognize him for a second. I just didn't know who this person was. And, uh, I had this awful, um, horror, this shock, uh, experience when I saw him. It was complete shock. I've never experienced anything like it, um, to see him in that state, in that condition. It was truly, truly awful, um, but what happened next was, uh, quite extraordinary, um. A second later, it was no more than a second or two later, this feeling came over me of joy. And, uh, I can only describe it as joy. And it was coming from Paul. Uh, Paul was in his bed there in that condition, in that state. Couldn't move, couldn't see, couldn't speak, was barely alive. And, um, I— it was like I felt this spirit coming from him, like it was a The way I describe it was like a dog wagging its tail. I had this feeling, this very distinct, very powerful emotional feeling that he was so pleased to see me. And so pleased to see me, like he— no one has ever been so excited to see me or greet me like that. And he couldn't move, he couldn't say anything, he couldn't see. Um, but I got this overwhelming, unmistakable, uh, message, communication that Paul was absolutely delighted to see me. It was so grateful. I got this rush of gratitude through some medium that I can't describe, uh, uh, use— I can't find words to describe it— that Paul was so grateful to see me, so pleased to see me. And, uh, it, it went literally from that It was— it went from a feeling of shock and awfulness to literally within a second completely washed away all these feelings of shock and just tragedy for what— how he looked and what he was. I mean, I— his body was— shrunk. He was almost not there. He looked— he died— he was 51, Jim Bennett, and I'm trying not to exaggerate here, but he really looked as though he was in his— if I'm gracious, he looked like he was in his 70s. Um, the disease had taken such a toll. It was, it was an old man, um, that I saw. But I went from that experience to feeling this overwhelming, joy and gratitude that came from him. Um, and so I, I, uh, walked in, I greeted him. Other members of the family were in there, they're all emotional. They came up and greeted me and hugged me. I can't remember what they said. They said things to me and greeted me, and I can't remember anything that they said. All I could think of was Paul and see Paul. And, and so I went up to him and I, and I, and I went to his ear because you could hear. I was told the nurse said he can still hear. And I said, Paul, I'm here. I'm here. I made it. I'm here. And I kissed his forehead and I felt this overwhelming, um, moment of exquisite joy. And so I hugged him and kissed his forehead. And then someone told me to— said he's thirsty, but you can put ice cubes on his lips and the water will go down his lips and he, um, you know, it will give him some relief because In that situation, it's quite common to become dehydrated, and that also has an effect on, you know, how long you're here, really. So all this was going on, it was, uh, so emotional. And, and, um, but I, I also, uh, had the strength for some— from somewhere, don't know where the strength came from— to speak words of encouragement to him. And I told him, because he was— I felt this fear, Jim, from it. I remember as well, he was glad to see me, pleased to see me, grateful to see me. But I also sensed a deep sense of fear. He couldn't talk. It wasn't through, you know, how we communicate here. But, and so I felt very strong, very impressed to say, look, Paul, you're going to pass through this stage of your life and you're going to pass into the next world. And I was active at the time. And I, uh, I said, you're going to be fine. I said, you're going to see, uh, loved ones. The relationships will be better. They'll be right. You'll feel peace. You won't feel pain. And I said, I really know this, and you've nothing to be afraid of. You really haven't. And actually, this is going to be a good experience for you. And so I said all these things that I can remember. There's other things I apparently said. I can't remember what I said at the time, but said these things, these words, and, um, and then I, I, a few minutes later, I felt this relief coming from him, uh, not so much fear, still, still some, but not so much. And somehow, some way, uh, I mean, he can hear, apparently. I was told he could hear, um, this had given him some comfort. And so, um, and so that was, that was why I was there. I, I was there and had that experience and said those things. And some others left. Um, I asked, uh, others if they'd like to be present if I gave him a blessing. And some stayed, some didn't want to because they weren't religious. So I gave him a blessing. Again, I was, I was active in the church. I gave him a blessing and said things in the blessing to reassure him and to comfort him and, and help him. And, uh, this is not an experience I ever thought that Paul and I would, would ever have, of course, um, anything remotely like this. This is so, um, unexpected. And, and then, uh, everyone had gone. It was me and, um, another member of his family. I think two others. I think David was there as well. And we decided to, um,, to sleep. I, I was jet-lagged, so I needed an hour, and he was, um, he was the last stage of his life. And I think I nodded off and woke up, and he and others were asleep on the floor, and he was still alive. And so I, um, uh, put my arms around him, told him I loved him, and, uh, he, um, That's what— he passed away. He, he slipped away. And, uh, we went to get the nurse, and she came back and confirmed that Paul at that moment had passed away. And when he— but he— when that happened, I felt, uh, something very distinct, very real in the room, that his spirit was in the room. His spirit had left his body. Um, I had a testimony of these things, but this was different. This was, um, very real. There was a physical shell now, a very, um, awful-looking physical shell in the bed. Um, but I felt, uh, his spirit. I felt his love. I felt his gratitude. I felt his relief. There was no fear. I believe his spirit was there for a few moments, communicating in some way that I can't understand or describe. And then after that short moment, there was nothing in the room. And so And so as weeks and months passed and I reflect upon that, and as you know, I've left the church since, I look back and this is one of the most profound experiences. I've had a few like this in my life. This is certainly one of them. And I was never grateful to Paul for anything, uh, never thankful for anything that he did. He never— I couldn't think of anything that he'd done or been kind, uh, to us or towards us in any way. I have no memory of that. But he allowed me to be part of that experience, to hang on, uh, to wait for me. And he gave me something that he probably didn't even know he was giving at the time, or he probably knows since, but he gave me this experience. And so I've left the church, but that experience has remained with me, and an experience I cannot deny, and neither will I. I don't necessarily believe in the, you know, the Mormon God anymore, the way it's described, you know. I don't know what deity or an individual looks like, or, you know, it could be like the Mormon God. I don't know. I'm saying I don't know. There's, you know, when you leave the church, sometimes you question your beliefs and you question, you might even question God. I don't question that there is a God or a supreme being or a loving energy out there. I believe that. I know that. Is that the same, you know, structure from, uh, physical form is what we teach in the church. Maybe, uh, I don't know. Um, and if it is, I'm fine with that. But amongst these set of unknowns, you know, that I, that I have now, there are certain things that I know more than ever. And I have no reason to testify of these things unless I actually believe them and actually know them. You know, when people stand up with the testimony, they say they know things. Well, you know, some people might know, some people might not. Um, might be appropriate to say you believe instead of you know. But I know that, um, there is a power beyond this life, that there is a, uh, that we, our bodies have a spirit, there's a spirit in our bodies, and that, um, that love and, and, uh, transcends death and, and, uh, is more powerful than death. That this is like a physical shell, that we go somewhere, um, we can be forgiven and we can get chances and opportunities to grow beyond this life. That there is a life after death. Um, it was so powerful. It was so, uh, extraordinary for me personally that, um, it, it, uh, confirmed that there is this power. This energy, this love, this, um, uh, I don't know what it is, I don't know what form it is, but it's real and it exists and it's good and it has some influence on this world, um, often more maybe than others at times seemingly. It can, it has influence to bless our individual lives and very, very personal private level, and I think it has the power to, um, you know, influence, uh, groups of people at the same time. It is spiritual, it is real. Uh, I don't know if it's as structured, as organized as maybe what the church, um, you know, like priesthood and, and, um, how it's organized and structured in the next world. I don't accept that fully, um, but I do know that there is a a presence or a being or an influence that binds the universe and has interest in who we are and influences to an extent. I think this principle that we talked about in the last podcast about agency is a big factor. I think agency is so huge. We really do get to decide what we do and how we live and how we behave. You know, Paul lived a certain lifestyle. Quite a selfish individual in, in my opinion, in many ways. But then, you know, look what happened at the end. He, he was differently changed, uh, you know, the last few weeks. From what Linda told me, he was a very different person. He was a very humble person, and, um, he changed in the last few weeks of his life, was a very different person. And so I've, uh, I have a lot to be grateful to Paul um, look what he gave me that I didn't think even was for me. I wasn't going there for me, really. I, I, you know, I was, I was trying to be the good brother and be— was it doing out of duty? There was a part of me doing out of duty, yes, I'm honest. And there's a part of me doing this because, you know, it was the right thing to do. We, we just weren't close. And, uh, and so So the whole ending of that, you know, that last, the tail end of the relationship was extraordinary. So anyway, I, I was wrestling over whether I should share this or not because it's a very difficult experience to share. You know, I said I'm very private, very personal, um, but if there's anyone out there that is struggling or wondering or have questions about, um, you know, these things, uh, hopefully some part of my experience might help. But I, I, these things happened, uh, I know, I know they happened. I, you know what, you know what, Jimmy, you know, when I went from that experience when I saw Paul to this completely, um, other end of the spectrum in terms of feeling positive, I have no power to do that. I, I have not recreated that. I've not tried to. Even if I knew how to recreate that experience, which I wouldn't want to, or know how to do, it wouldn't be right to do that. I have no power to do that. That did not come from me. It came from somewhere. It didn't come from my mind. I didn't, uh, did it come from my mind? Did I make the whole thing up? Can you, is your mind so powerful that you can go from one, it's like Alma, go from one experience so exquisite to literally a second later, like a second, 2 seconds max, and you're feeling something very, very completely different. I don't know. I don't think the mind is— I don't know if the mind can do that. My mind can't do that. I've not been able to, you know, reinvent that or recreate that. But my hope is that if this experience helps someone or gives someone comfort or hope, you know, a loved one has passed away and you're not sure are you needed to give somebody, you need closure, or you need to revisit those relationships before they go, great, you know, anything good can come from that. But I have no idea how this conversation will be received by our listeners. But I just thought, what the heck, you know, forget what I think and feel, if this can help someone, then I guess that's a good thing. So that's it.

Wow. It can help someone. It helped me. I mean, I am so humbled that you would feel comfortable sharing that with me. I mean, as you were speaking, it brought to mind the experience I had when my father passed away. Uh, which, which was, you know, the relationship was quite different. But we had a very positive relationship, and all of the kids had gathered around his bedside. But I remember I was downstairs on the phone with my wife, and my brother yelled, Jim, you better get up here. And I got up there, and I thought he was gone. They thought he was gone. I missed it. And then there was this moment where he just took in this huge breath and then just let it right back out, and he was gone. And, and as you were talking about Paul and you were talking about that moment, anybody I think that is, that is there with someone they love and sees them pass, you're absolutely right. It is so real. There is such a moment where it is undeniable that, that, that something has happened, that, that there is a spirit, that there is a power. You know, all of these things that you've said I mean, this just all brought this all back to my mind. And I do think you're going to— hopefully this will touch people. Because, you know, as we talk in this podcast, as we talk about things in the church and all of this stuff, it is really wonderful to be reminded of why this all matters. This all matters because there is a God. I— and, and you're right. I mean, you know, when people get up at testimony meeting and they say, well, I know this and I know that and I know this, uh, what we actually know is minuscule, is very tiny, um, in terms of the specifics I have no idea what my father is doing right now. You know, I know what the church would tell me he's doing. He's engaged in missionary work or whatever. And but I mean, how that world works, how that all operates. I mean, we don't, we don't know. But what we do know is that it's real, that there's something there. And, and, and the fact that And I just think it's so significant that you're sharing this now, as, as members of the church would point fingers at you and have pointed fingers at you and said, well, you've gone off the rails, you've listened to the devil, you've done all these terrible things and, and distanced yourself from God. But there's no distance. Between your experience, uh, then and now. That testimony, that, that witness that you had, uh, it doesn't disappear when you leave the church. It doesn't. It's not bound to an organization. It's bound to God, who loves all of his children, in, out, wherever they may be. And I just— I don't have anything else to add. I feel bad even adding this because I don't— I don't want to take away from the power of the story that you've just told. But I just— I think that it's just very important that we have those kinds of reminders of what really, truly is real. When we're dealing with the things of this world and what really truly matters. You know, all of the, all of the stuff that you had to deal with with Paul throughout his entire life and the difficulties and the bullying and the, you know, the car that was left at the side of the road. I mean, all of that, ultimately, it's just amazing how, how quickly that fades. How little that matters. And what matters is that pure love, that pure joy that is absolutely real. And so I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing that. I love you for it. I think it's just wonderful. And I, I think our listeners will be, will be grateful for it too. So that's, that's all I have to say.

Jim, I'm grateful that I could have this conversation with you. I, I can't think of anyone that I, um, could have this conversation with other than you. I love you and appreciate you, and I'm grateful for the history that we have. You know, we go back a long way, you and I, and, um, I'm just, uh, I'm just grateful that, uh, you know, we strip all these things away in life that are not really that important Uh, what really matters is, is relationships and, and love and forgiveness. I don't have, uh, any bad feelings now towards Paul. I used to, uh, used to have some pretty awful feelings towards him. Um, I don't have them anymore, and, um, I love him and just grateful that we had, uh, you know, in all that, all those years, we had a good relationship and an extraordinary relationship for 2 weeks. Week, week and a half or two weeks. So I'm grateful, Jim, for this conversation. Didn't know how to approach it or to talk about it, but I've done my best. And again, I hope that it helps someone in some ways.

I absolutely, I know that it will. And with that, we will bring this to a close. Thank you all for listening to Inside Out and thank you very much, Iain.

Thank you, Jim Bennett.