A Conversation about BYU with Sue Bergin

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the mighty Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I'm doing well today, Jim Bennett. How are you?

I'm doing all right. So, um, this is, this is a, a podcast I've actually been looking forward to since we set it up. Uh, and I want to just dive straight in and introduce our guest here at the beginning because I think this is a really important topic and we've got somebody really wonderful who can shed some light on what's happening here. Uh, in the past week, the Salt Lake Tribune published an article called Dark Days: New Rules Have BYU Professors Running Scared. And the focus of the article is about Clark Gilbert, who is the church's education commissioner, and his hiring and firing practices, and how the people at BYU are terrified about what's happening because, as the article describes it, it's It's a black box and it only opens for Clark Gilbert. Nobody really knows what the standards are. Nobody really knows where the line is. People are being let go. People are not being hired and they're not being told why. And there's a lot of speculation as to why, but it's such a frustrating and terrifying situation that no BYU professors, currently employed BYU professors, were willing to speak. However, some former BYU professors have been willing to speak, and one person who has been quoted in the article is someone, uh, that I remember from my Southern California days, was a, was a friend of the family, and, uh, is a, is a very accomplished writer and editor. Who used to be an adjunct faculty member in BYU's Marriott School of Management. And we are very excited and grateful to be able to welcome Sue Bergen to the Inside Out podcast. Sue, how are you?

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Jim Bennett and Ian Formigle.

Well, very much appreciate you coming to speak with us. Especially since you are one of the few people that actually went on record here. Um, I, I'm looking at the article that Peggy Fletcher Stack wrote. It says Bergen was let go in 2022 after teaching writing at the Provo School for 28 years. Oh, I thought you were in the Marriott School, but you were— were you in the writing department or English department?

I was, um, so I worked full-time in the public affairs office, public communications. When Elder Holland was president. And I've worked as an adjunct for, in the honors program and the Marriott School for a total of about 12 years. And I wrote for BYU Magazine, now Y Magazine, for 17— I had a regular section for 17 years. I wrote for them for about 35 years.

But Okay, so you were quite the fixture at BYU.

A lot of people knew me because I interviewed so many professors for, um, the family focus section, which was my section for those 17 years at Y Magazine.

Okay, um, well, so from the article, it says Bergen was let go in 2022 after teaching writing at the Provo School for 28 years. She suspects It was for wearing rainbow pins, telling her students that she believes in love for everyone, and for stating she has two gay brothers. Because Bergen had worked for BYU's public communications office when now-Apostle Jeffrey Holland was the university president, she contacted him after she was let go to ask if someone at Church headquarters, quote, "had a problem with me," unquote, since she didn't know anyone at BYU who did. Uh, can you give us a little more insight? The article says that you— that Elder Holland wrote back to say it is not a board of trustees matter per se, so he was going to, quote, step out of this circle. What does he mean by step out of this circle?

Well, he, um, so this was all by email, and he graciously offered to see what he could find out weren't on my behalf about what, what led to this, what happened. Um, and I think when he found out, he, he didn't tell me that he found out, but I think when he found out, um, it was an internal matter that they didn't want to talk about. It had something to do, I'm pretty sure, with the Ecclesiastical Clearance Office, which at the time no one knew about. There was a clearance, you know, your ecclesiastical clearance was done by your bishop. And my bishop had endorsed me. No one knew there was this separate new black box at church headquarters. So I can only connect dots, you know, that that existed. And the folks there, whoever they are and whatever they're doing, probably found something in my social media. Um, I was pretty loud about my LGBT advocacy on my private Facebook. Um, well, I mean, I guess some people consider that public. I don't know. I kept it private with friends most of the time, and I never, uh, said anything publicly about— publicly as in on my Facebook page opposing any church policy. I would just talk about love and acceptance and suicide rates. And, um, anyway, so I suspect they found, um, lots there, and that's what led to me being fired. But nobody wanted to say that to me or felt they could legally say that to me because that could open them up to something. I don't know what. So he came back to me after saying he had checked various places. It was Christmas time. He was having trouble getting people answering and so on. And because he determined the Board of Trustees did not have a problem with me, that was— he was going to step out of this circle of trying to communicate with others at BYU about what might have happened. So that's, that's what he means by the circle, this circle of inquiry, I guess.

So he just punted essentially.

Yeah.

And, and he referred me to Clark Gilbert. He said, here's Clark Gilbert's, um, email address and feel free to email him. And I did.

Did you get a response?

Uh, yes, he'd had COVID, so it took about 10 days before he responded to me. Um, And he just said, you know, I hear great things about your family, and I don't know anything, or I don't know if he said I don't know anything, but he said, I'm going to refer you to an administrator at BYU, the associate academic vice president for faculty relations. So I emailed him, another 10 days goes by, and he just says, per our longstanding practice at BYU. We don't discuss these things, and I understand your distress about knowing what— not knowing, not knowing why, but, you know, he wasn't going to tell me. So I was just trying to get some information because I wanted to appeal it. I wanted to find out what the accusation was and see if I could address it. I had no warning, no word from anyone. That there was a problem. And I was being advanced, what I considered advanced, to a new position. And that's apparently what triggered the review. And this was a new procedure also. To that point, if you were vetted by BYU and your bishop, you could move around at BYU. But They apparently there was something new and they, since the musket talk, I believe that was the triggering event that gave Clark Gilbert permission to crack down on orthodoxy or non-orthodoxy by his, and I don't know who else's definition, because those definitions, you know, obviously are They vary widely from person to person and even among the 12.

So, so Clark Gilbert told you that he didn't have a problem with you and wouldn't tell you what the problem was.

He didn't say he didn't have a problem with me. Um, he just, um, was very— I mean, I can pull it up if you want me to.

And, um, uh, do, do you attribute the decision not to, uh, to terminate your employment to Clark Gilbert?

I attribute it to the policies he set up with this ecclesiastical clearance office. I don't know that he reviewed it himself. I don't know. I can tell you, I just, I, you know, just for accuracy, I'm sorry about your status with the university. As Elder Holland mentioned, nothing came from Church headquarters on this specific case. It appears to be a local decision by BYU. I did track down where to reach out for appeals, and there are no appeals for adjuncts, and he has to have known that. It doesn't exist. Um, you can contact blah, blah, blah. I've included his contact, and that's it. Thank you for your—

Adjuncts aren't employees, right? Adjuncts are your—

They're contract workers. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it appears to be a local decision by BYU. He knew that it was not a local decision by BYU. I mean, he had to have known that.

Well, I had a conversation within the last couple of days with the bishop, uh, after Peggy's article came out, and I was talking to this bishop and the bishop said, look, I don't see, I don't understand why anybody would complain about BYU because everybody knows when they decide to go to school there or when they decide to seek employment there that there are these very clear standards as to what you should and shouldn't be doing. And my response, this bishop had clearly not read this article because my response was, yes, everybody does have these clear standards. That they agree to live by. But the thing that's so dangerous at the moment at BYU is that people are being let go. People are not being hired based on standards that are anything but clear. This idea of the black box, this, the fact that you have not, I mean, you're assuming it's because of your LGBTQ advocacy, advocacy. Despite the fact that, you know, there's nothing in BYU standards, at least in terms of temple recommend interviews or anything else, that prohibits people from being allies of LGBTQ people.

Right.

But there is sort of kind of an unspoken cultural, and at least now it seems ecclesiastical, authoritative opposition to that kind of allyship. But nobody knows where the line is. Is it too much to wear a rainbow pin? Is it too much to talk about having gay family members? I'm assuming you weren't like petitioning the church to perform same-sex temple sealings or anything like that.

No, I wasn't.

No. This to me is what's so disturbing is that, you know, if you know what you're getting into, you know, I didn't go to BYU as an undergraduate. The reason I stayed in Southern California is that I didn't want to mess with the honor code. It wasn't that I was doing anything that was opposed to the honor code, but I just thought I really don't want to worry about it. What was interesting in my experience is that I went back to BYU. I got my undergraduate in theater from the University of Southern California, and then I went to BYU to get a Master's of Business Administration from the Marriott School. And by that point, I was married. I had one daughter and had another daughter while I was going to school. And, uh, I had a great experience. At BYU. And part of it, I think, was that I wasn't like living on campus. I wasn't really part of the campus culture. I lived in Salt Lake and commuted down to BYU while I was getting my master's. But I really enjoyed it. I really had, and I enjoyed the fact that you could be a member of the church, you know, going to USC, um, you just didn't discuss your sort of church life. In any kind of a school setting. And I found it really refreshing to be able to do, do that at BYU. Uh, but this was also in 1997 and the kind of LGBTQ advocacy that has— people don't— people often forget, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but people forget how quickly LGBTQ acceptance has come on the scene. In 1997, if you took a poll— there were polls. My father was in the United States Senate at the time, and this was a year after the Defense of Marriage Act was passed and signed into law by a Democratic president. And polls showed that something like 80% of Americans were opposed to same-sex marriage. And, you know, so, so, I mean, the kind of social pressure that BYU is under now as the country has moved towards greater inclusion, moved towards greater acceptance. Same-sex marriage is now the law of the land. The church has even endorsed the Respect for Marriage Act. Um, did I say Respect for Marriage before? Was the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996, and now it's the Respect for Marriage Act, which is codified same-sex marriage as legal in all 50 states, and the Church has endorsed that bill. So, the Church has actually made a great deal of movement in that direction, not as much as many allies would like to see, but it's really remarkable. As I look at BYU now, and I look at my positive experience in BYU, I really lament and I'm worried about the people who go to school there. I've got two sons there right now, as well as professors there. I've spoken to multiple, multiple professors, none of whom again would be willing to go on the record, but all of whom are terrified by this. I mean, Ian, as, as an outsider looking in, what is your reaction to all of this?

Yeah, first of all, Sue, thank you for coming on. This is That's incredibly brave and courageous of you. I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation. I'm not sure if Jim told you, but I'm a former bishop of the Church, and I've also served on the Stake Presidency. It was Elder Oaks that set me apart, and Elder Oaks that provided some training, and over the years, I've worked with senior leaders, including a number of General Authorities, and, you know, gay rights and LGBTQ issues have come up Often I recall when I was a bishop, the requirement was, and I don't think we've talked about this, Jim Bennett, you know, bishops and stake presidents across the world are expected, required actually on some things, to communicate information about members that the Church identifies as a potential risk or a problem or an issue, including individuals who are gay or attracted to the same sex. And I, it's been many years since I was a bishop, but I would get calls from time to time about individuals. I think I remember a few folks from the UK applying and going to BYU, and I got a call, I think, from Solihull. That was the headquarters of the church in the UK, and asking me questions about individuals. Now, the interesting thing is, is that I never shared any private or confidential information that I didn't think was necessary with the church, and I, that was something that I made that decision on. If it was an individual who was a threat to other people, physical, or individuals who are a threat to children, for example, then that will be very different. That, that's information that myself and many of the bishops would share, and rightly so. But when a bishop interviews an individual, as you know, they especially if you trust the bishop, and I found a lot of people trusted me, probably too much at times. They opened up and they shared very private confidential information about their lives, including being attracted to the same sex. And I always felt that was very personal, very private. And on this conversation earlier, I'm looking at the BYU Honor Code, Honor Code Office here, and the Ecclesiastical Endorsement tab in the website here, and it says here, students must obtain and maintain an active ecclesiastical endorsement in order to be admitted to BYU, continue class enrollment, and graduate. I mean, that's pretty significant. I mean, they've, they've got a significant hold on individuals in terms of being admitted, continuing, continuing in the curriculum and class, and even if you graduate or not. And so, you know, bishops, I think, are probably under pressure to disclose information, you know. So you talked about earlier that the church, or some of the leaders in the church, probably or likely found information that you'd posted on social media. Um, please don't go into detail because I want you to be comfortable here, but Do you feel that some of that information could have come from your bishop who interviews you? Do you get interviewed every year to maintain your position at BYU? Can you—

at BYU? Yes, it's yearly. So if you're an employee, as opposed to every other year for a temple recommend if you're not a church employee. So no, I don't think so, because I spoke to my bishop and talked to him about, you know, and he said, You know, I just, I get on my dashboard, you know, church employees, a yes or no to endorse, or a call us and discuss it. And he said, I just, I just hit the yes, I endorse. And I, yeah. Uh, but since I was let go, we'll use that term, even though it technically, it was a non-renewal of contract. They have added to the contract for anyone who is a new hire or anyone who is moving laterally, any, any moving up, anything. It's a new contract, and you have to attest that you agree with, you support the church's position on marriage, family, and gender. And you waive your confidentiality with your bishop.

Right.

Wow.

That's extraordinary.

You waive your confidentiality with your bishop. Sexual predators are not required to waive their confidentiality with the bishop.

Right, right. That's an extraordinary revelation right there. But the reality is, I've resigned from the church, as Jim Bennett mentioned earlier, for this and many other good reasons, I believe. The church does not like gay people. It wants— if it could get rid of gay people, it sees gay people as a problem. If it could get rid of the problem or further distance itself, it would. It doesn't know how to come to terms with gay individuals, and it has no clear defined guidelines or policy. In fact, it's very mixed messaging. You know, if you look at the— and you're too familiar with it more than I am— if you look at the honor code here and the some degree of, well, broad definitions and generalizations on standards, what you can, what you can't do in terms of behavior. It's not very specific to what, to Jim Bennett's point earlier, it's kind of broad, kind of general, and so is open to interpretation by a bishop or by a leader who may arrive at a different interpretation. And so, and then of course a lot of this is tied to, uh, the now infamous musket fire talk that was given by Elder Holland in, uh, 2021. Jim Bennett and I served with, uh, Matt Holland. Um, I got to know Matt pretty well. Uh, and I've actually met and did a little bit of work with Elder Holland when I was in, uh, Scotland with Jeffrey Holland, uh, in regards to, uh, him coming to the Edinburgh stake that I was serving in at that time. I don't know him personally really that well, but his talk has become quite infamous. And he talked about, you know, musket fire and friendly fire and protecting the family values of the church and the doctrine of the church. He said they're protecting the doctrine of the family, defending marriage as a union of man and woman. And at the same time, on the BYU website, it talks about being inclusive and respectful, or language to that effect, for LGBTQ individuals, et cetera. I won't go into the details here. If anyone's interested in going to the BYU website and read all that, so it looks to me like the church is paying lip service to the concept of being inclusive towards LGBTQ people, but at the same time, when you start getting specifics, you know, you're wearing a rainbow badge or you're talking about it or you're advocating it, it sounds like at some point, uh, yourself and others, of course, you crossed their line, but you don't know what that line is.

So, all right, I think to that point, the lines change and they shift and they don't inform. When they've shifted. They just start enforcing the new unspoken rule. So when I first began teaching in the Marriott School in 2016, and I was really at that point active in Mormons Building Bridges and other, you know, I was hosting hugging booths and things like that at Pride. And it was really important to me to help students who might be hiding at BYU to know that there's someone who cares and someone who— and so I would wear a rainbow pin at the beginning of each class. I did this anyway, and I would introduce myself as just a small part of my introduction was, I'm an informed and safe person on this topic. I have two gay brothers and, and so on. And after a couple semesters, I just I talked to the person over my course and said, I'm doing this and I just want to inform you in case it becomes a problem. I want to know, you know, I feel strongly about doing this and I'm just informing you. I wasn't asking permission. And he took it to the dean's office, not the dean herself, but a dean, associate dean. And they— it came back. It's like, do this, we need this, keep doing this. Um, and especially in 2019 after a, um, Merritt School student took their lives in the building, their life in the building.

I remember that.

Um, and you know, we, we've got to be caring and inclusive and suicide aware. And so I was given a total green light, but then it changed, but nobody told me it changed. Right, right. And so then, yeah.

On—

thank you for that. On the, uh, website here, and I just want to quote something here on the, uh, Honor Code, Honor Code Office website, free on the frequently asked questions, it says here very clearly, uh, you know, is there a change in the expectations for LGBTQ students? He says here There are no changes to the LGBTQ policies. CES is deeply committed to helping all of our students, including our LGBTQ students, feel both the love and covenant expectations of the Savior. He goes on to say, same-sex romantic behavior has been and continues to be contrary to the principles, including the CES Honor Code. LGBTQ students are a welcomed and valued part of the campus community. And share a common identity with every student as sons and daughters of God. All students will continue to be encouraged to live the gospel and university college commitments. So in writing, they've got this statement, but in reality, when you start to advocate and create a, or try to create a safe place where LGBTQ people can come to university and feel someone is there to help them, or at least they feel welcome, the experience for them is very different then, it sounds like.

Well, and there is a huge distinction between the students and the faculty/staff. So that phrase you just read, "Encourage them to live the gospel," which is interpreted as if you are LGBTQ+, you must abandon all ideas of any romantic attachment to anyone for the rest of your life, right? So part that, that becomes the faculty and staff's job is to help these students come to that commitment and place. So there's a different standard for the students. They're welcomed, they're encouraged, you know, they're loved in words anyway. Action's another thing. But the faculty and staff are to never now, since I, since I left, um, never encouraged them to live out their life in consonance with their attractions. So, you know, and you can be fired if you do that.

But from what I understand, you weren't doing that.

I wasn't. No, but, but, but having a pride pin, having pride in your sexual orientation is not consonant with the gospel, apparently, now. It was okay for a while, but now it's not. Now that's, that's going beyond the scope of what they want to, of what they consider loving. It's not loving. If God doesn't want you to do this, it's not loving to wear a pride pin that encourages you to live a gay, live out a gay relationship, let's say.

Just on that, Sue, just tying to that, and I'm listening intently. Elder Holland in his musket, his now infamous musket fire talk, which is a terrible talk in my opinion, very threatening actually. I think it's very cloaked in, uh, uh, you know, undertones for sure. He, he says this, he says that we have to be careful that love and empathy do not get interpreted as condoning and advocacy.

There it is.

So yeah, so, you know, for an LGBTQ individual, Jim Bennett, why would you go and open up your life to your bishop, share all your inner thoughts and feelings about your attraction to the same sex? Why would you do that at the risk of the bishop disclosing that and you potentially getting thrown out of BYU? This is going to push people to remain quiet. They don't feel— I can't imagine they would feel safe and secure in an environment like that. And having gone to a couple of really good universities in the UK, which is much more inclusive, I'm astonished, and I don't fully understand how BYU can maintain its status as an inclusive educational facility in the global context. It's extraordinary that it's got this standing, this status, and yet it's not inclusive at all. In fact, it creates an environment, it sounds like, which is unsafe, hostile, and potentially threatening. Yet it's got this status in, not in the world, I don't think, but certainly in America. Certainly, you know, people haven't heard of BYU outside of America mostly.

Um, it is falling. I mean, its reputation is falling, I think, because of these things.

They were listed, I think, uh, I was talking about this actually, uh, over dinner, uh, they used to be something like number 61 in terms of their academic reputation according to U.S. News and World Report. That's fallen to number 109. Uh, and it's different from school to school as well, because some of these schools— BYU had a big, huge kerfuffle over the fact that speech therapy students were no longer being allowed to be taught how to help transgender people, um, trying to think what's modulate your voices.

Yeah, modulate their, uh, Yeah.

Were you aware of that whole situation?

Yes. And not only were the students disallowed, but the clinic— they run a clinic for the community there for the students to learn. They did at the BYU Speech and Language Therapy Clinic, and they had a number of trans clients, and those clients were summarily dismissed. We can't serve you anymore. I mean, by the unit, by the, by this new policy, the people in the clinic, from my understanding, were devastated that they had to do this. Well, I mean, just the soup to the musket fire talk to some degree. What happened right after the musket fire talk?

Well, in the musket fire talk, Elder Holland said, we may lose some certifications. Uh, but we're willing to do that. The part of that talk that really frustrated me more than any other part of it, and it's interesting how Elder Holland has, has since responded to the musket fire talk. He acknowledged that about 5 years after, I guess 5 years is strong because this musket fire was, so I'm getting my timing all wrong.

In the same setting, he, he gave a talk. This last August for BYU faculty, which is where he gave the original talk at the beginning of the academic school year.

Well, he talked about all the tears that he shed and how he was brokenhearted by how many people were hurt by the talk, but still refused to apologize for the talk or take anything back from the talk. And the part of it that I found to be most frustrating was when he slapped down Matt Easton, Oh, that was awful.

That was awful.

Can you talk about that for a second?

Well, he, um, well, in his original talk, he, um, in both talks, yeah, he talked in veiled terms about a gay student who was valedictorian in his college and gave the speech and came out. In his speech, and, um, in, in 2021, and he had gone through all a whole process of permissions to do this. He informed his dean, he informed his department chair that he was going to do this, and they all said fine. You know, they looked at his— I don't know if they looked at his copy, but my guess is they looked at his copy and said that's fine. Um, so he did everything. I don't I don't know exactly or remember what Elder Holland said about it, but it was, he didn't use the name, but you know, it was a bit of a sarcastic reference to a student using, you know, this forum where people are celebrating and, you know, to kind of grind his own ax. I mean, he didn't say that, but that was the word he used.

Commandeered.

He commandeered.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, Elder Easton had commandeered. Elder Easton, um, Elder Easton— Matt Easton spoke in the 2019 ceremony, and I'm trying to find the exact quote from Elder Holland, but his complaint was that when somebody comes up and he commandeers a graduation ceremony to do this, then it's— okay, here it is. What might another speaker feel free to announce the next year until eventually anything goes? What might happen if we push individual license over institutional dignity for very long?

And implying that it was not dignified to reveal such a thing, even though Everybody is constantly talking about their husbands and their fiancés and their heterosexual relationships, but it's undignified to speak of your orientation, not even a relationship, just of your orientation, even though heterosexuality is shoved down everybody's throats constantly.

If a student commandeers a graduation podium intended to represent everyone getting diplomas, in order to announce his personal sexual orientation, what might another speaker feel free to announce the next year? Yeah.

I, I, some of that was devastated. I spoke to Matt and he was devastated.

Uh, Matt, my, my daughter, my second daughter graduated from BYU at the same time Matt Easton did. And she went to school with Matt Easton and knew him. And yeah, that was her. She said that, I mean, for an apostle, I mean, the amount of power that an apostle has, particularly among a believing, to a believing member of the church, for an apostle to just slap you down that publicly when in fact Matt Easton got permission to say exactly what he'd said, as you pointed out.

And he did it in the most dignified way.

Yeah, I call it undignified. Remember, his only reference was, um, I stand here as a proud gay son of God, and that was it. Yeah, it wasn't, and I'm looking forward to getting married to another man, and I think the church needs to perform same-sex temple ceremonies. And there was none of that. There was just the acknowledgment that he was a gay man.

And if we're really truly inclusive, BYU, Then why wouldn't we not celebrate? Oh, well, now we know we can put our arms around you, right? Because you told us. Thank you for telling us so we can put our arms around you.

Where do you see this going, Sue? What do you think is going to end up happening?

I, oh, I'm not good at things like that, but, you know, I, people talk, I talk to a lot of BYU people often. And, you know, a lot of people see it as a pendulum swinging and it's going to swing back, but who knows how long it will take and, and how much damage will be done in the meantime. I think it will swing back. But again, you know, in my lifetime, I don't know. I don't know. Things are retrenching so deeply that It could take quite a while to dig back out and up.

Well, I, that may well be true. What I find interesting about this is that this is different from other retrenchments in that in previous retrenchments, I think that the leaders and the members were far more in sync. Than they seem to be now, because the church, particularly on LGBTQ issues, is sending out such mixed messages. Because when I was growing up in the church, the standard was if you were gay, it was because you chose to be gay and you're a wicked person, so stop being gay and then everything will be fine. And as I think Loathsome as that idea is, it has the virtue of being logically consistent. If being gay is a voluntary choice and we choose our sexual attractions, then the church could conceivably be justified in withholding all of its blessings until you make a different choice. But the church, particularly since Proposition 8, since 2008, And after same-sex marriage has become the law of the land in 2015, the church has now for the first time acknowledged, no, you do not choose your sexual attractions. They created that website Mormon and Gay that it's now part of— you're not allowed to say Mormon anymore, but it's still on the material, still on the church's website. Where it talked about how people do not choose their attractions, and also people should not expect their attractions to change based on sufficient righteousness, which is a 180-degree shift from what I was taught when I was a teenager.

And it also has not trickled down to the local congregations still. There are still many people who speak of it as a choice and something that can be changed if you want to badly enough, and the atonement can cure everything. And, you know, you know, because these things are not said from the General Conference pulpit.

That's correct.

Yes, correct.

And that's the challenge, is that the church— I mean, the church has made that concession, but it's still, okay, you didn't choose to be gay, but we're still going to treat you as if you did. And we're still not going to offer any kind of righteous outlet for who it is that you are, who you, you never chose to be this person. This is just who you are. And yet we're going to tell you to deny that part of you for the rest of your life. And hopefully after you die, you will be transformed into an entirely different person with entirely different attractions who you probably wouldn't be able to recognize.

And guess what happens? People want to, who are so devoted to the church, they want to get to that next life and get cured now. And guess what they do? You know, some, hopefully fewer, but oh, it's been just horrible to watch that happen repeatedly. When you're in that community, part of that community. As an ally, as an advocate, as a member of the community, you see it more than most people do. And it's just—

Can you talk a little bit more about that? I mean, you talk about being part of a hugging booth. I remember the Mama Dragons.

Yeah.

Working with the Mama Dragons on that.

I was actually— I did that early on through to in 2013 and 2014 for Mormons Building Bridges. So that was a little before the Mama Dragons had formed. Um, yeah, I mean, it was just, um, both times I did it in Provo at the Provo Pride. They didn't have a parade in Provo, but they had a Pride festival. Uh, they still don't have a parade, but they have a festival. And, um, yeah, just the folks who would come up and want hugs. Just, I mean, we would end up in tears so often. It's like, really? Mormons building bridges? Mormons care about us? What? I got my 80-something-year-old mother to join. She has two gay sons, you know, and she joined one year with me and it was transformative. Informative. It's just, you just see, I mean, the, you see the pain, the suffering, the, um, just the abject despair of so many, uh, at that time. I, I hope there isn't as much despair now because the love is getting bigger for, and embracing inclusion is getting bigger. But you'd see that, and then you'd see the joy of Oh, well, it's so nice to know, you know, that there are people who care and who are trying to make a difference here. And then there were others who were just like, why are you trying to build a bridge? The Mormon Church burned that bridge down, you know, a long time ago. There's no point in building a bridge. And that's the way I feel now, actually, to be honest. And Mormons Building Bridges has kind of, it still exists, but it's not as vigorous as it used to be because most people are like, there's no bridge. Bridge to what? There's nothing to bridge to.

Yeah.

Sue, we talked earlier about the church online and perhaps in talks to an extent. It's quite broad and loose in terms of its language around supporting, you know, the gay community. You know, uh, you also mentioned that it, you know, the, the, the, the lines change and they're quite blurred and quite obscure. Um, a couple of questions come to mind. Where do you think this went wrong for you in terms of the termination? Can you pinpoint something you did? And the second question I've got, uh, if you don't mind, is, um, what impact has this had? You know, when they terminated you. What impact has this had on your life? If you can speak to those two, two questions.

Well, the first one is I don't know because nobody would tell me what, you know, I can only suspect that the, this new ecclesiastical clearance office scrutinized my social media and found pride flags and expressions of, um, acceptance and love and inclusion. I mean, that's all I did. I didn't do the other stuff. I didn't do the marriage equality advocacy on my Facebook because I knew, you know, I mean, the church was paying my paycheck, right? And, and I had to make a, um, a, a reasonable decision about not speaking against my employer's stated position about something. But I did not think I had crossed a line. Now, I should qualify that and say that I did take a risk twice in class and say, part of the course I was teaching included a unit on diversity, equity, and inclusion. And we called it that then, that those words are dirty words now at BYU. But that was part of the course that I was required to teach. And I did say after having a gay person come in and lead the discussion on that part, for that part, because I tried not to act like I, you know, knew all this, because I didn't, and I don't. But I did say after they concluded and with their agreement with the church's position, I would, I said twice, I, um, I respectfully disagree with the church's position about marriage equality, and I know that that is problematic. I have wrestled with it, and it's your job as young adults to wrestle with this kind of thing. I know some of you do, and I'm not going to tell you what to do or what to believe. I'm just letting you know that this person in front of you me has wrestled with this. And I, this is, and I respectfully disagree. And my understanding at the time was that that was okay because Elder Christofferson had said in a press conference that people, members disagreeing was okay. Now I was an employee, so that doesn't mean that that applied to me, but I took a chance. I did. And maybe that got into a student evaluation or something. I don't know. But, um, I looked at all my student evaluations every semester except the last one, um, because I was informed before they became available that I was being terminated. And I just decided not to look at them. I just was. So the way it's affected me is, um, That was— I am sole support and I have chronic illness, and I was cobbling together a living by being an adjunct and writing for BYU Magazine. And it was a scraping by kind of living, but it's what I could do with my energy and other issues. And when they, when they did not renew my contract, I was 64, that was 3 years ago. And I've, I looked hard for a job, cannot work full-time. And, you know, part-time jobs are, you know, $12 to $15 an hour basically. And so instead I've been cobbling together independent editing and writing work And it's been very difficult, you know, especially with AI coming out. It's just hard to get enough work to make a living. And it has, I am living below the poverty line, to be honest. And it's been very stressful. It has decimated my finances and I cannot, I have to keep working until I'm 70 to get the higher rate of, 'cause I have no pension, you know, BYU as an adjunct, part-time person at BYU for most of my time there. I got, I had no pension. Um, anyway, it's been difficult. It's also been freeing. I mean, I can't deny that it's been freeing to not have to, um, listen to, go to church and listen to incessant meetings about temples and, um, tithing and gender and marriage. I mean, the meetings have just turned into program advocacy. There's just so little about kindness and love and forgiveness and the basic teachings of Jesus, which I value and love and have tried to live by. And I must say, everything I've done with my LGBT advocacy, I did because of what the church taught me, not in spite of what the church taught me, but because of what it taught me about kindness and goodness and being loving and inclusive and understanding. And, um, that's where those values led me, and I don't regret any of it.

That's really heartbreaking to hear. Uh, uh, I mean, that's the thing that's so frustrating about this article particularly, is that these are real people whose lives are being devastated for reasons that no one's willing to explain. And if you're going to be good and you're going to be kind, at least have the kindness and decency to be transparent, right? Somebody owes you an explanation. I mean, you, you've guessed, and I think you've, I think, I think we all agree you've, you've likely guessed correctly that it has to do with some kind of specific LGBTQ advocacy on your part. But I think they owe you that explanation even now. Somebody needs to come out and take accountability for that.

Yeah, not gonna happen.

Well, it's not gonna happen. As you talk about though, this is— I, I had sort of started this thought and, uh, I, I want to pursue it a little bit. That one of the reasons I think the pendulum will swing back faster this time is that I don't think the general membership, particularly the rising generation, uh, are, uh, are with Clark Gilbert on this.

Uh, I mean, you have to be clear that it's not Clark, that any member of the 15 could stop this if they wanted to. They are aware.

They are aware.

They could. Uh, the channel over him, so We have to say that they are doing it intentionally and they know, and this is what they want, and he's doing what they want, or he would not be continuing on this path.

Well, so the article talks about that a little bit because behind everything I hear about what's happening behind the scenes, even in the Quorum of the Twelve, and among, I mean, I don't know if there's any of this happening in the First Presidency. I think they're fairly united. But LGBTQ issues are one of the most divisive, are the most divisive issues, even among church leadership, and that there are brethren who want to see more inclusion and who are pushing for more inclusion.. And they're running up against the sort of brick wall as there are some brethren, I think President Oaks being the most prominent, are just sort of this brick wall. We're not going to see any greater inclusion as long as President Oaks, and who's going to become the president of the church fairly shortly, President Oaks won't tolerate it. And as a result, the one thing that the Quorum of the Twelve is not willing to do ever is show any sign that there is anything but perfect unity among the Twelve.

All you have to do is listen to General Conference carefully to know that that's not so.

Right, right. I mean, it's very clear, um, that very often they're speaking to each other more than they're speaking to the general membership. You know, you saw that in this last conference, or I guess it was the conference before that, where Elder Kieran gave this really wonderful inclusive universalist talk, and Elder Uchtdorf gave a talk very similar, and other talks were just hardcore retrenching and and just the absolute opposite of universalism. And, you know, let's hide out in the temples and the world is so wicked and we need to make sure that we're— I mean, you see this sort of battle and this sort of tension that is bubbling under the surface. But the one thing that they're not willing to do is stick their necks out and say, I disagree with any of my other brethren. And I think that's one of the reasons why Sadly, we can't expect somebody in the Quorum of the Twelve to break ranks and come to your rescue and come to the rescue of the other professors that are seeing all of this. I want to look here quickly at the article. Oh, well, no, but in finishing my thought, the general membership of the Church is not there. The general membership of the Church is not with Clark Gilbert. All of the polling, particularly of young members of the Church, shows that a majority of Latter-day Saints believe in the legality of same-sex marriage. That shows that somewhere around two-thirds of Latter-day Saints between the ages of 18 and 30 believe likewise.

I'm rafting with my love. My— can you see my heart?

Yes, I see all the hearts on the screen. This is a audio podcast, but I want everybody to know that Sue is throwing out hearts in response to this. But this is the thing that you're seeing is that it's, it's getting harder and harder and harder, uh, for these kinds of retrenchments to take root because there are now so many different avenues for people to express themselves and people to find like-minded people who agree with them and to build communities online as well as in person. It's really hard for a church leader to sort of dictate belief by fiat.

Well, and there's also— I mean, you're giving me hope, and I want to add that the human spirit wants to grow and wants expansion of their third being. And what's happening with this retrenchment is just this calcification and this closing in of walls where the God I know is just throwing walls down, you know, just removing them and expanding us and wants to. As much as we'll allow. And that human instinct and drive to grow and improve and be better and be more loving and rise is unstoppable. And if, you know, a culture at BYU is going to try to shut that down, which is I think what is actually happening. Inquiry is not welcome. Open, robust discussion. I mean, we've all had the thrill of being in a room where people are openly giving their real true thoughts, even if they're not acceptable. There's There's something that's just so enlivening and enlightening about that. And if that's not happening at BYU because the professors are scared to open those doors, and they have good reason to, it's their livelihood, right? It just can't sustain it. It won't be sustained. It's not sustainable.

I completely concur with that completely. Gay rights has become a civil rights issue. Yeah. And the church, uh, in one breath recognizes that, you know, by accepting certain laws and legislation, you know, enacted by Utah and, and other states around the US and, and, and around the world to some extent. Uh, the church is, by the way, is very inactive on these issues outside of America. Mostly, in my opinion, it doesn't really get involved in this stuff in, uh, UK or, or Europe. It's mostly, mostly not entirely American-centric. The church is on the wrong side of history here. It is on the wrong side of history on polygamy. It's on the wrong side of history with the race of the priesthood. These are complete absolute disasters for the church. These are some of the key major problems that the church is wrestling with. We just did a podcast on polygamy recently. Race to the Priesthood, and of course—

The child work, the children, I read it. I mean, I—

Yeah, that was the last podcast that we did. You know, these are some of the big issues, and of course LGBTQ rights are civil rights now, and the church is lost. It has no leadership on this, no position on this. I think it likes to hide behind obscurity and allows this confusion to happen because it doesn't know how to respond, it doesn't know when to respond, and it only responds under media pressure when something comes to light. Even then, there's no, Jim mentioned this earlier, there's very little or no apologies. No apology over polygamy, there's no apology over the damage that that caused women that we talked about. There's no apology on—

Still, yeah.

I mean, what an awful legacy. No apology. Elder Oaks, I think he said, and Jim's quoted him a few times, he doesn't accept or receive apologies or give apologies. Is that right, Jim Bennett?

It is the policy of the church not to seek apologies or to give them.

Right. So they have it. And of course, there's no apology forthcoming for, you know, being on the wrong side of history for LGBTQ. It likes to hide behind obscurity. It's weakness. It's shallow. It's cowardly. I, you know, I can't imagine.

And it's distrustful, it's distrustful of its members because they will not engage their members on these issues and explain themselves. There's no trust.

There's no trust.

Yeah.

And there's no specifics. There's no clear defined position on things. So, so that, so then people guess, right? They, the leadership is dinosaur leadership. It's antiquated, it's backward thinking, it's not keeping up with the more inclusive thinking and loving, increasing loving population of the membership where people, members for the most part are very kind and considerate and thoughtful and respectful and and are committed to creating a safe, inclusive experience and space for individuals. This leadership is just hiding behind obscurity. The thing is, we talked about damage to and the hurt to women and wives in polygamy. Could you speak just for a moment on what you see is the impact that the personal impact, Sue, on, you know, individuals, LGBTQ individuals, and how this is impacting them on a personal level. Could you speak to that from your perspective?

Well, just from what I've observed, and I have two gay brothers, one has died, both of them, I consider their lives destroyed by the church. And by the messages they got when they were young that that orientation is depraved and, you know, filthy. And, you know, you— they internalized that. And one died at 29. He did not take his life, but he had attempted a few weeks, a few months before, and then he died for reasons unrelated. And the other one is deep in addiction since he was about 15, 16, and just can't cope. And so these are examples. This happened— I think addiction is one way that a lot of LGBT members and of our church and of all very conservative churches, they suffer terribly because they feel defective. And, you know, the kids, the teenagers who come out, by the time they come out and say, "I don't want to go to church anymore," the damage has already been done. They've been absorbing it and trying to figure it out and knowing they can't talk about it. And then when they finally come out, it's just like they're done with the church. They are done. They cannot survive in a system that denies their human, their nature, you know. It's just, I have seen despair. I have seen suicide. I have seen, I have seen people go from that to acknowledging their and embracing their nature and thriving. It's like a light goes on. Oh, I can— I don't have to live this way, you know, just with this straitjacket, you know, and this white-knuckle living through life alone and not accepted and rejected. And they can go from that to, I am going to embrace who I am. That's where the pride comes from. People say, well, when are we going to have a pride parade for heterosexual people? Well, you don't need one. I'm tempted to use the F-word, but I'm going to stop. But anyway, yeah, they just— I have seen this happen repeatedly where they just, they thrive. And the church's teachings about the by their fruits I mean, why don't they look at this and see that the fruits are good of living in consonance with your attractions and your, you know, your, what I say, nature. I don't have any belief anymore really about what's, you know, what's in the next life follows from what's here, anything like that. So I can't speak to that. Part, but I just, I get a rush when I see people who acknowledge and embrace who they are and then thrive. And it's a beautiful thing to see.

Well, listening to you and listening to how passionate you are about this, it actually gives me hope because I think there are still people on the inside of the church and even in church leadership that share that same kind of passion and that recognize the reality here. And the rising generation is recognizing the reality here. And when I try to find hope, when I get frustrated by all of this, um, I remember the fact that the most fiery speeches by church leaders that we would never abandon the principle of plural marriage, and we will never back down from federal interference, and we will— I just finished reading American Zion by Benjamin Park. Marvellous, marvellous book. I would love to get Dr. Park on this podcast too, Ian. We need to reach out to him. But he points— he talks about that and points that out. And the most fiery speeches about polygamy happened right before the manifesto. That, you know, all of the people who can see the future and see the writing on the wall as the world presses down on them, that's when they lash out the most. And I am hopeful that these kind of, because this kind of retrenchment, it's sort of a schizophrenic retrenchment because it's happening at BYU. And yet you're seeing it when Aaron Sherinian was hired by the church, uh, he was hired and people lost their minds over the fact that he had a social media presence that was very much pro-LGBTQ, and he is now the head PR director of the church. And I have since asked him, have you gotten in any trouble for any of that? And he said, not at all, which demonstrates that the church, at least some people in church leadership, recognize that you can be an ally for LGBTQ people and still be considered a faithful member of the church.

Well, how come he gets to keep his job.

Uh, well, that's, that's the schizophrenia here. Yes, the schizophrenia. Because, because BYU, and particularly Clark Gilbert, I think, here, uh, have sort of created their own little fiefdom. And, you know, you read this article and Clark Gilbert lists the different kinds of professors that need to be gotten rid of. I think it's remarkable that Peggy Fletcher Stack went in there and said at a dinner to prominent church leaders. I thought, great investigative journalism here.

Yep.

That we're able to capture that. But you have people who say, not on my watch, you know, we're going to do this. And I'm reminded of the words of Joseph Smith, as well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri River, Mississippi River from flowing, or whatever it is. Is, you know, will we be able to keep the Lord from pouring down knowledge on the heads of the Latter-day Saints? And I think you have a lot of people stretching out their arm to try to stop the kind of inclusion that I believe is absolutely inevitable, whether you like it or not. The Church is not—

It's necessary.

It's good.

It's good. It's necessary. It's what Jesus would do, in my opinion.

Oh, no, I, and I agree with you. And I get criticized because it's like, well, you're telling the church what to do. And it's like, I have never, I mean, I know where that line is too. Even as a member of the church, not a BYU faculty member, but I am a member of the Tabernacle Choir. I have never and never will say the church needs to do this, the church needs to perform same-sex sealings, the church—

Please, no.

I will. Well, and I understand that, and you're not operating within the same lines that I am at the moment. I know, I know. But what I will say is that I welcome further light and knowledge. We are a church that is built on a principle of continuing revelation. We should expect and yearn for further light and knowledge. And I will leave it to the Lord to define what that light and knowledge looks like. And I am confident, as you are, that, you know, Jesus and our Heavenly Father have infinite love for all of their children, including their LGBTQ children, who we now acknowledge are made that way by their Heavenly Father. They do not sort of choose this sort of, to use Spencer W. Kimball's word, perversion, but rather this is who they are. And if this is who God made them to be, then I believe God must have some kind of righteous purpose for that. The idea that this is who I made you, and yet there is absolutely no way I want you to express that. I want you to be somebody else other than who I made you. And the reason why I think the rising generation won't stand for it too is that I was told, and I believed, I genuinely believe this, I was told over and over again, if same-sex marriage were to become legal, then it would erode the foundations of civilization, that traditional marriage would be under threat. President Oaks is on record as saying that if this would happen, it would end the human race within a generation.

Right.

Because apparently everybody will somehow choose to be gay, I guess.

Well, and the truth is that heterosexuals ruined marriage long ago.

Well, we've had some problems with marriage in the heterosexual community. There's no doubt about that. But what's happened now is that all of that scaremongering now looks ridiculous now that same-sex marriage is legal and the sky has not fallen and heterosexuality has not disappeared and doesn't seem to be in any danger of disappearing. So that kind of scaremongering doesn't work on my children. You can't tell them, geez, same-sex marriage is going to destroy the foundations of civilization. Well, I go, you know, I wake up in the morning and civilization's still there. And it's just the church. It's not even a question of what it wants to or doesn't want to do. It's a question of the fact, it's a reality that they no longer have any choice. Reality is pressing down and eventually, you know, we can't, pick up one side of the stick and not pick up the other side of the stick. We can't say, okay, you didn't choose to be gay. Okay, we were wrong when we said you could pray the gay away. Okay, all that. But all of the policies that applied back then when we thought all those things that are not true, those policies still apply. We either have to go full on back into the Boyd K. Packer, Spencer W. Kimball miracle of forgiveness days, Or we have to accept the reality and go forward to inclusion. And I just don't think the church has any choice. I don't know when it will happen. I don't know how it will happen. But I am increasingly confident that it will happen because it has to happen.

Well, and—

Is Tumpiana here?

Can I say that I, um— Prophets, seers, and revelators, their challenge is to transcend their conditioning to hear the voice of God. And they're not doing that right now. They are not transcending their conditioning. They're letting their conditioning keep the church within these walls that are anti-expansion of the heart and the goodness and the inclusiveness, um, that The church could have and could be and will be, as you're saying. But, you know, they could do it sooner if they would let their prophetic abilities help them transcend and ask the questions and, you know, that will lead to transcending their conditioning. And I'm, you know, I'm sure I'm not transcending my conditioning in many ways, but I'm not a prophet and I don't say I speak for God, so.

Ian, are you transcending your conditioning?

From the church perspective, I think I'm going to outer darkness. I'm worse because for an apostate, somebody who the church thinks has abandoned which I haven't really, I've not abandoned the universal principles of the church, love and Christ and kindness and service by any means. I feel much more transcendent, if you like, in regards to my life in those principles and values and standards, et cetera. I'm less judgmental, I'm much more inclusive. I feel humbled to be on the right side of history, Sue, like you are, and I believe you are, Jim. You know, you have a, your own perspectives. I think the church is very much on the wrong side of history, and I think it will change. They can't stop that great force, you know, coming, that you can't stop that. It will change. The pace of change is frustrating for sure, but I believe it will happen. No, I had the church, from my perspective, you know, the church has disowned me really. You know, no one has any contact with me. I think the church sees me as a complete apostate. So, and I'm okay with that. I think, you know, you make something, yeah, you mentioned earlier, Sue, that you feel there's a sense of liberation, of freedom. And I feel, and I'm sure like you feel the same way, Sue, authentic. I could be me. I don't have to play these silly games and believe stuff and accept stuff that I think is complete bullshit, frankly. So, you know, I could be me. I could think freely. You know, when I went to church, it wasn't safe. I had questions. I was on the state presidency, by the way. And so here I am, this pesky council on the state presidency asking these difficult questions and was shut down and it was very frustrating and I didn't feel safe and I felt quite, it was quite an intimidating experience for me. But now I feel liberated, free.

I can be me.

I can think and feel, I can do what I think is right. And I think Elder Oaks, when he interviewed me and the other counselors, he asked us, how do we want to be remembered? So this is when we were called into a new stake presidency. Of course, he was speaking as the context of coming into the presidency, serving, committing to the church and leadership, et cetera. He was speaking about how we want to be remembered as a presidency. But I now look at that and I think, well, how do I want to be remembered? You know, people around me, people that love me, respect me, hopefully, and I want to be remembered for doing the right thing and being inclusive and kind and loving and doing what Christ would do. You said earlier that, you know, Christ wouldn't behave like this, that the Brethren are not in certain things, not everything. I think they're in tune on lots of things. I think do a lot of good. I really do. We say on the podcast the church is, you know, when it gets it right, is amazing.

You can't—

there's no organization out there that has the power and the resources and the impact when the church is doing the right thing and blessing, you know, millions of lives across the world. When it gets it wrong, like it has in this case, I think it's very lost and it's very confused and it lacks leadership and they're not going to the Lord with these questions. I think if Christ was here, he would be, you know, he would be— I can't speak for him, of course, but I think he'd have a different position. You know, he's kind, loving, and inclusive. He wouldn't behave like this for sure. So, but I know we got to close here, but I just want to express my gratitude to you I know we've just met on this, on this podcast conversation, but how incredibly humbling it is to meet with you. And I'm so sorry for the hurt and pain that you're going through and the impact this has had on your, on your life. I'm so sorry about that, but I want to commend you, if I may, for your courage and your bravery and your integrity, because that's how we remembered. We remembered Jim for our integrity. We remembered for how we make people feel. Remembered for building people up and supporting and loving people. That's how we remembered. And so that, you know, is my response to Elder Oaks is how do you want to, how do I want to be remembered? Well, that's how I want to be remembered for being, doing the right thing, being on the right side of history and being kind and loving and inclusive. That's how I want to be remembered. Elder Oaks didn't for one second think that, you know, I would take this direction in my life. He was speaking as a new, for the new stake presidency, how would he be remembered there? But I am hopeful. I agree with you both. If you are saying that the church will change, I think it will change. It continues to change. Will it change under pressure? Yeah. Will it take lots of other media pressure and other people like us talking on the podcast to change it? Yeah. And that's great. Whatever change, whatever direction that change comes from, um, that's, you know, that's probably not important, or it might be. I just believe it will change, it will happen. And I think that maybe Oaks and maybe others maybe, uh, have to lead this planet before those changes take place. But I, I believe it will happen, and more progressive, moderate thinking will come through in the next 5, 10 years, and eventually we'll have a more inclusive curriculum for LGBTQ people and people hopefully, you know, who are naturally and, you know, want to be themselves naturally can go to BYU and talk openly about who they are and their identity and feel safe and secure and loved and included. And faculty and teachers and lecturers will feel the same way. I'm still astonished that the church maintained its status. I think it's 109 right now, but, you know, I just think it will continue to slip, and at some point, this will reflect in the status of the BYU and the numbers, and the church will be forced, kicking and screaming, whatever it takes, to be much more inclusive. So there my— I know we're almost out of time here, but there my concluding thought. But thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and sharing your thoughts, being so brave and so courageous, for being so authentic and having so much integrity. Thank you.

Thank you, Ian. Thank you for those kind words. They mean a lot.

Well, by way of— I'm going to summarize my little position here, and then Sue, I want to give you the last word, and I want you to be able to say anything that you wanted to say but may not have been able to say so far. But I want to join in commending you for being willing to share all this with us. I really appreciate the opportunity to visit with you. I have admired you for many years and have known you to be a person of integrity, and I'm very grateful that you are standing up for what you believe here. As I sit and listen to both of you talk about where the church is in terms of what side of history the church is on, I recognize very much that I'm the only one of the three of us that actively continues to participate in the church. And I recognize that, you know, I have reached a place where I recognize that church leaders— I really have confidence that church leaders are good people, are well-intentioned people, but they're also people with the same kind of weaknesses that I have and that anybody else has. And they are people who, as much as we want them to be able to transcend their own biases and their own backgrounds and all of the things that would be necessary for men of the, you know, 90 and 100-year-old men to sort of transcend a lifetime of what they have believed and been taught. I recognize that all of us continue to have agency. All of us continue to struggle with that. And that really is what really at the heart of the mortal struggle is to be able to rise to the divine even as we have to transcend all of these kinds of things. I know. So, so in saying that, I try to give church leaders as much grace as I hope they will give me, as I hope the Lord will give me, and try to have patience with them as they have patience with me. But like Ian, I would like to see changes come far more quickly. But I also have confidence that because these are good men, because the hand of God remains in this church, that eventually we're going to get where we need to be. I don't know how long it will take. Uh, I do know that at least in my personal experience, the Lord wants me to stay for as long as it takes. And if it doesn't happen in my lifetime, uh, it's something that I have come to accept and recognize that this is still where the Lord wants me. And I also recognize that other people do not feel that same kind of call to stay, and other people feel called to leave. And it is not my place to determine anybody else's journey or to cast any judgment on anybody else's journey. And I certainly recognize that many good, decent, wonderful people feel they can no longer stay because of these kinds of issues, because the church is not moving as quickly as it needs to. And I am just grateful that people of integrity in and out of the church are continuing to talk about these sorts of things and raise them. And I think, Sue, particularly your voice is just so essential in this conversation, and I am so grateful to you for being willing to participate in it. So with that, can you give us your final words of wisdom?

Yeah, I want to go back to the article for a moment, and that is Taylor Petrie, or Petrie, I'm not sure how he says it. He talks about this retrenchment as being a, and I have the article in front of me, it's a classic purity campaign. And purity campaigns are always dangerous. He says they root out undesirable people and ideas in order to create homogeneity, but they create division, stifle thought, and prioritize fear over faith. And I think he just says it beautifully. And I hate that this is happening, but this is what is happening in my view. And then at the end of the article, Peggy Fletcher Stack, the writer, the journalist, the Pulitzer Prize winner, the wonderful, incredible journalist, she says the problem BYU faculty members are confronting is what makes someone a true disciple and who gets to decide? And my answer is, for me, I get to decide what makes me a true disciple. And for me, that is, I am a true disciple of trying to be my best, to be loving and caring and inclusive, all the words that Ian said. And I don't know any other way. Um, that's the way forward.

Amen. And thank you for sharing that with us. Again, I can't thank you enough, uh, for coming on, uh, for sharing this with us. Uh, hopefully this discussion will soften some hearts. Hopefully this discussion will shed some light on the black box. And hopefully we will see change sooner rather than later. Uh, so thank you very much, Ian. Thank you very much. Any final words? Any parting thoughts, Ian?

Just want to thank you, Jim, and a special thank you to you, Sue.

Thank you to both of you too. Thank you, Ian, and ah, Mr. Bennett.

Thank you, and thank you to all of you listening, and we look forward to seeing you next time on Inside Out.