A Conversation with Andrew and Carline Patterson

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes and I'm here with my podcast partner, partner in crime, Mr. Jim Bennett, the logical Mr. Jim Bennett.

Logical. Okay. I'm a Vulcan here. Cheers.

Yes. Peace and prosper, Kim. Peace and prosper.

Live long and prosper.

And, and Jim, I'm really excited about this week's podcast because I have two of our favorite people on the podcast, two people that myself and my family love dearly. And some two people in the family that we've known for quite some time. We have Andy and Caroline Patterson. All the way from Dalkeith, Edinburgh, Scotland. Welcome, Andy Callan.

Nàith leat an bhàthamh.

It's good to have you here. And so when we were talking about this podcast and preparing it, we talked about you coming on the podcast and sharing things that you feel comfortable with, including your experience in the church, you know, when you were coming into the church and what brought you into the church. And we talked about you sharing your thoughts and experiences on what life was like in the church. And just for our listeners, by the way, I've known Annie and Caroline for quite some time, since 1999, because we, my family, we moved from Yorkshire, Huddersfield stake, to your ward, Dalkeith ward, in '99. It was '99. I think Alan Campbell was the bishop at the time.

Yeah, I think.

And, and so we moved there and that's how we got to know Carl and Andy and just a wonderful couple that we just fell in love with. And we loved our time in Al-Khidr and we served together actually, um, in different callings. Uh, and that's how I know and my family knows Andy and Carlene over that length of time. And so, um, Andy, Carlene, if you, uh, are okay, if you could share with us, uh, your experience about, you know, how you came into the church. Uh, you can talk about how you met, uh, if you want to. You came into the church, um, a little bit about your family would be great. Um, and then you came to the church, you served in the church, uh, you had, uh, experiences, you served different callings, etc. And then at some point something happened, um, at some point in time, and then you left the church. If you could talk about that and then talk about, um, what life is like, you know, since— yeah, because I, if I understand, you've both left the church.

Yeah, we have.

Yeah.

And if you could share your, that experience and share with us what life is like, you know, post, um, leaving, uh, the church. And then Jim Bennett and I, throughout the conversation, will interact with you and may ask a couple of questions, uh, but again, we want you to be, feel, feel very comfortable with the conversation.

So, hello. She was a member of the church long before she met me, so I'll hand over to her first.

So I kind of had the whole Joseph Smith thing going on about which church to join. My mum had sent me to local Baptist Sunday school because it happened to be in our local primary school and she wanted a couple of hours peace and fun. So I was sent there and I loved it. My sister hated it, didn't stick with it. I loved it. Went all the time. They eventually tried, as a teenager, wanted me to become a teacher for them, but by that time I was like, mm, I'm not sure about this. So, had that background, and then, um, I had, I really wanted to know, as like I say, Joseph Smith type story, which church was true. So I actually had Jehovah's Witnesses teaching me, um, at the same time as, uh, going to the Protestant church. Church of Scotland, um, and wasn't quite gelling with that. And so I was doing the whole praying, praying, praying, like, I really want to know which church is yours, and I just need to know, I want to join your church, I want to be in the right church, whatever one it was. If it had been the Jehovah's Witnesses, I'd have done that, that's where I'd have went. However, um, I got the chance— I worked in Edinburgh, there was a snow day and I couldn't go because the buses were only running to Edinburgh, because we live kind of on the right-hand outskirts. And I got the opportunity on that snow day to go for an interview in a local shop, so I could walk to it, and got an interview for a job out of the blue. And I got the job there and then and discovered that a member of the church worked there, Pam Beveridge. Do you remember Pam?

I know Pam, yes.

So, uh, so I'm, I'm being taught by Jehovah's Witnesses. I've got the Church of Scotland background, and then all of a sudden I meet Pam. I start to ask her questions. I was one of these people that people love to meet because I was full of questions. Oh, can other missionaries come by? And I'm like, yeah, that would be amazing, lovely. And so actually had the missionary lessons in their home. My, uh, I was engaged at the time to another, not Andy, to another guy. We were both only 19, and I just kind of got right away, this is the one, this is the one, this is where I should be, this is God's church, and I'm gonna, you know, put myself 100% into it. Alan, my ex-husband, came along for the ride. He did join, but he was never 100% in. And I just flourished in it. I loved it. I just loved the church. Had the two boys, my two older children, and Really went along great for a, for a good few years, was very happy. And then my marriage started to go wrong and I, I found out a lot of things about my ex-husband and it, it just went all off the rails. And I had, I had to go to the church and tell them what was going on and everything. And I, I just actually discovered that one of the members had actually met They were out for a meal, two of them, him and his wife, and Alan was in the same restaurant for a meal with another woman. He didn't tell me. I found out later on. Anyway, the crux of this was that the church had to interview me and had to interview Alan. And I remember distinctly, you know, the path that used to go down to the building here, passing Alan on the path. I'd been in, I'd told my story, I'd gave them everything I had, I knew that I knew about at that point. And I just thought, the spirit of discernment will be with these men. They will know that I'm telling the truth and Alan isn't. And I was shocked to my core because they believed everything Alan said, everything he said. And, uh, we ended up separating and divorcing. And I, I did go to church for a while with the boys, and after we separated but just couldn't. The church is a family thing, you know, and I just felt I didn't fit in anymore. The members were being a bit funny with me, and, and, and so eventually I actually left for 5 years. I was gone for 5 years, never not losing my testimony, still had my testimony. The church just could not deal with being there with a broken marriage, a broken temple marriage, um, I just couldn't deal with it. So I was off for 5 years. Within, in those 5 years, I met Andy. And obviously it got serious, and I said to him one day, look, I am a Mormon. Don't go at the minute, but this is, this is who I am. And one day I'm probably going back. And he was saying, that's fine. Didn't faze him at all. And then we were literally married, how long? Weeks, months? No, we got married in August, and it was October, I think, um, a Bishopric member knocked on my door and said, you know, you're married again, everything's, you know, fine, and we want you back. And that was all I needed, was the invite to come back, because what I didn't say is, when I was gone for 5 years, nobody bothered about me. Nobody came near me. It was just me and my boys, and I just got on with it. I made a new life for myself. I started karate lessons, and, um, you know, I made myself a stronger woman through what had happened. Um, and then suddenly they, they found out I'm remarried and they're knocking on my door, and I just thought, well, I just took it as, well, this is— the Lord wants me back, you know, this is the time to go back. So we did, we went back to church, and, um, they gave me a call, and right away as young women's president, and I was I was like, I've been gone for 5 years, this is too much. But I literally was invited back with a calling, Young Women's President. So I thought, right, okay, well, I'll do it. Did it. And then you would come down, it was when the 3-hour thing was on and sacrament was last. So he would walk down from the house to the church for sacrament and he'd sit in sacrament with me. And I never put any pressure on him to join. I didn't think that was fair. Fair. It would be completely up to him if that's what he wanted to do. I just wasn't going to force it on him. And so I never really did any kind of proselytism with him.

No, no, you never.

But when he was at church, obviously the missionary spoke to him, the bishop, again, everybody spoke to him and welcomed him. And he loved it, and he loved to sing. And like I said earlier, he loved to sing the hymns. And then one day he said to me, what did you say? What you doing on such and such a day? And I said, Why? What's going on? He said, I'm getting baptized. And I was like, oh, no way. It just came outta the blue. It just, I think Paul, my son, who was about 8 or 9. 8.

8.

He gave a talk at one of the sacrament meetings about families. Families are forever. And it just touched him and he said, yeah, I'm doing this. So he joined and, uh, we got married in the temple. I had to go through the whole rigmarole of getting my first temple seal. Sealing broken, which was no fun. But we got there, we did that, and then we got sealed in the temple. And then we just— life was great. We were in the church, we had the 4 kids by then. No, we had the 2, Lyraella and Paul, Lyraella and Paul for a while. And then, um, we went through a couple of miscarriages, which was another thing that kind of upset me church-wise. So I've still got the thing about The spirit discernment was me with the bishop, like when they spoke to my ex-husband. And I, we, I got pregnant and I had a miscarriage, which was sad and, but, but you know, it happens. However, when I got pregnant again, I went to my bishop, not gonna say names here, but I went to my bishop and I said, I really need a blessing. I am so worried that, that the same thing will happen again. And, um, eventually I tied him down and he Very reluctantly, but he gave me a blessing and he told me in the blessing that I would hold this child in my arms. That was his exact words. Do not worry, um, you will hold this child in your arms. And about a few, 2 weeks later, I lost that baby as well. So right away I'm thinking, what happened there? Like, what, what's going on there? Why would I be told that? And it took me weeks to get that bishop to speak to me. He just couldn't even look at me on a Sunday. Eventually I tied him down, I said, I need to speak to you. What happened here? You told me I'd hold this baby in my arms. And his reply, and I think already I'm starting to see how the church can never be wrong, but his reply was, you will hold this baby in your arms, but it'll not be in this life, it'll be in the next life. And I thought, that's just nonsense. That is not what you meant. And an actual priesthood holder said to me that he hates when the elders or the, you know, the priesthood would cop out with things that they promised in blessings, and then it would turn it to suit them, if you like, so the church could never be wrong, the leaders could never be wrong. However, we put it to the back of our minds, put it on the shelf, and we just got on with life, didn't we? And then we went on to have twins. One of which you met earlier. And life was great. We just, it was, it was super. Alan, my oldest boy, he stopped coming to church when he was 16, and he kind of backed off for the family, didn't he?

A little bit.

And that has been quite a— we still talk about it yet. He's 47 now. 43, sorry. I think I'm older than he is. He's 43 now, and he will still bring up how he had to stay away because he didn't feel good enough to to come to visit, to come to the family. We were this Mormon family. His other brother, who's just a few years younger, went. Euan, no, I mean, Paul loved Euan. Um, he was still quite active, and he just felt like he didn't belong to our family. So that was a big rift that was caused by us being in the church, but it didn't bother us at the time. We just kind of got on with it. We saw him when we saw him, and everything was really quite good. Do you want to take over for how you feel about that?

I can do that. So my background was that I came from a very non-religious family, but my dad had been a member of the Brethren, which is quite a strict sect in Scotland, very strict. And he'd really rebelled against that, but I'd kind of grown up around religious things. I always liked hymns and church singing. Uh, one of my girlfriends' university, her stepfather was a minister, so I used to go down there and that was kind of Church of England thing. Uh, it's when I met Caroline, and we really just gelled really quickly. Alan was 12, Paul was 8, and I was enjoying it. Like she said, she'd already told me, warned me that she was a Mormon and wanted to go back at some point. It didn't bother me. I didn't see myself ever joining a church, but it didn't bother me. I'd go down and like Caroline has already said, I enjoyed the social side of it. I enjoyed the singing. Some of the speakers were very good as well. And then Paul gave this talk about families, which kind of just rang a chord with me. So I started asking the missionaries a bit, a few more questions and to get the lessons officially without Caroline knowing about it. And it all seemed to make sense to me. The whole thing about how if God spoke to man in past times, why wouldn't he do it now? Why wouldn't you have a living prophet now? That really made sense to me. I thought, okay, this all makes sense. And I did get those feelings, you know, the feelings they told you you were going to get in your heart. I had some really nice feelings at that time. So I got baptized and next week I was called as a ward clerk. I think throughout my time in church, I was never without at least one calling. I was ward clerk, I was on the bishopric, I was on young men's presidency, I was on stake young men's presidency. So I had a lot of callings, had a lot of good experiences, and some, some not so good. I guess that's where you realize that people are people, men are men, and are going to make mistakes. And I especially kind of found that at stake level for stake disciplinary hearings. A few things went on there that really were quite an eye-opener for me at the time. I kind of passed it off as, okay, yeah, men are going to make mistakes. God can't guide absolutely everything, but we still have this church structure. We still have the priesthood authority restored. We still have a living prophet. And that, that was all, all really made sense to me. And I mostly enjoyed my time in church.

Then what happened, I guess?

Well, I've been trying to think about What if there was a one point, one moment? I actually can't think of a one moment thing. I just started to think about— there was a lot of things bothering me. Tithing was a big thing that bothered me, even before I knew— I mean, I've only recently found out how much the church has, so it was nothing to do with that kind of— it's just that was one thing. Polygamy was another thing that bothered me. Blacks in the priesthood really bothered me. And I just started to have these questions. And then a friend that I think you know as well, Ian, she told us about this, this site that we could join. It's, it's now called the Waters of Mormon, but it's, it wasn't at the point, at that point. And so we, I joined. Did you join?

No, not at the time.

I joined it. And with the, with the, the whole thing for this group, right? Sorry?

That's a Facebook group, right?

Yes.

And their whole crux is to try and help people who want to stay in, but they have a lot of questions. Yeah. And technically I shouldn't be in it anymore because I'm— I don't want to stay in, but I do still like hearing about things and what's going on in the church. But it actually was— it was worse for me. Actually being on that group made me see a lot of things. I I actually honestly know more about the church now than I did when I was an active member, through this group. And, um, and some of the things I found out, instead of making me feel better, just pushed me even further away. And of course then the CES letter comes up and you think, oh, what's that? So I have a read at that, not the whole thing, it's too long, but you know, the, the kind of basic points that most people kind of know about it, and that just That just gave me more questions, more questions and more questions. I went to our stake president and I asked him, I asked for a meeting and I asked him some of these questions. And I remember the one on tithing, and I did say to him, what, like, I knew the church had a lot of money, didn't know how much. I says, you know, why is the church asking for tithing? Who was it? Was it Joseph F. Smith that had said that there would become a time when the church would no longer require a tithe? I think it was him. Rubbish with names, but I'm thinking it was him. Anyway, a prophet that passed away.

That's Joseph F. Smith. That's exactly right.

It is him. So, and I said this to him, and I said, so, like, when? When? Because we were not well off, and I gave the church a lot of money, and struggled that way because of it. And I said, I need to know, why is the church needing so much money? Why is this prophesied? And this was another thing that bothered us, which we'll go into later. Why is this not— why has it never happened? Why do you still need so much money? And I'll never forget his response was, it's been prophesied that the American government will collapse one day and the church will need that money to step in to help. That's what he told me. That was his words.

Is that something new?

I actually did find something that Brigham Young had Craig, that they would— his words were that they would come to him with the American Constitution, was the word he used, would fail, and that they would have to step— the elders of the church would have to step up. Um, so that's the only thing I could find that would maybe be where the stake president got this from. But that just sickened me. I'm like, whoa, wait a minute, you're asking me, who doesn't have a lot at that time, to pay money so that the American government can be bailed out? And And for every question I asked, things just, there was more and more coming to me that I was asking more about, you know, it just, it confused matters even more. The answers were not good, um, from my point of view. And one of the other things that I just touched on a minute ago is about, and this is one of the things that you really struggled with, is how past prophets' prophecies are thrown aside by new prophets. Like, it just, that makes no sense to me. If the Lord willed it then, why has it changed now?

But for me, I could, I could still reason that away because things do change and maybe the Lord was shaping a path. I still didn't find anything completely black and white that would take me away from the church. There's lots of small niggling things like Carolyn had explained, we struggled financially, uh, some of the people in the ward are not the best example of church people, shall we say. And you struggle with the fact that they're called of God. And then you think, well, they have something to learn. Yeah, there's always a way of justifying it. They have something to learn, or I have something to learn. Maybe I need to learn patience or humility or how to work with somebody. But there's lots of little things just kind of niggling away. And then we went to a friend's house and we met Jonathan.

Yeah, so, um, my daughter-in-law's mum, who was in an Edinburgh ward, she, she was always one for having the missionaries for dinner. And this guy, this ex-missionary, had come, um, over to Scotland like years after his mission, um, just to visit her because Liz was so good at, you know, feeding the missionaries and things. So she kept in touch with quite a lot of them and he came to visit and we were invited to go and meet them. And it turned out that he, or had totally stepped away from the church, like really anti-church. And he started to tell us things that were like, oh my goodness, like what? It just like loads of different things. I'm trying, I was trying to remember some of the things that we discussed with him and, um, he blew my mind. He just blew my mind. And that is when I thought Oh my goodness, this is not what I thought it was. This is not the church that I joined. This— what have I been believing in for all these years? And, you know, given all this time and money and energy to, um, it freaked me out a wee bit, actually. And Blair, uh, he was planning a mission. He would have been 17 at the time, planning a mission, very into the church, probably out of the 4-year kids. He was the most into it. He actually kept going with Andy after I stopped going, and he got really upset when he was listening to this guy, when we were telling him what he had told us. And he sat out here on our steps, in our hallway, on our staircase, sobbing, crying his heart out, because it's just not— he's telling lies, that's not the church, you know. He just got so upset because his church that he loved so much, that he was He had to go and serve for 2 years. We were telling him things he didn't want to hear. And he took quite a while to come round, didn't he? He did, yeah. He just, um—

And so, so Carolyn had left the church because of these questions. I was still going with Blair, still struggling along. What really kind of finished me off was when, I can't remember if it was one of the bishops or a stake presidency or one of the conference talks, said that A prophet's not always a prophet. You have to decide for yourself when he's prophesying on behalf of the Lord or when he's just speaking as a man. And for me, the whole foundation of the church wasn't Joseph Smith as such, but the fact that there was a living prophet. Because that made sense. I mean, if it wasn't a living prophet guiding the church in modern times, then it was just another church led by men and all these other things that kind of had niggled in the background. From that point on, I didn't want to be bothered overcoming those if the foundation of the church, in my eyes anyway, wasn't there anymore. I only really went for the church because structure of the church, having a prophet guiding it and speaking to God and giving us this continuing revelation, that, that's what really sold it for me. And when somebody told me, well, it isn't, it isn't, you can, you can pick and choose, you have to decide for yourself, but don't question the prophet.

Yeah.

You have to question him, but don't question him. Follow the prophet, but don't always follow the prophet. And I just thought, well, it was confusing. Yeah. And for me, that was the final straw when we left, which was, I'm on about 5 or 6 years. Officially, probably about 6 years plus we've not been going to church.

Um, and I remember Blair coming to us one day, maybe about a year later. He couldn't have gone to church because we physically weren't taking him. He lived too far away and he wasn't driving at the time. Thing, and, um, he came to us one day and he, he was at— he, he played rugby for his local, uh, rugby team. And you know anything about rugby culture, you know, there's a lot of meeting in the pub and whatever afterwards. And they actually— one of the, one of the men who ran the club actually bought him a crate of non-alcoholic beer so that he could join in with the celebrations and still be keeping the Word of Wisdom. And because he did take a lot of stick for the other rugby players because of his beliefs in the church and what have you, and he stuck to it for a while. And then one day he came to us and says, 'Mum, I just want to be an ordinary teenager. I just want to be able to go out with my friends.' And I says, 'Well, do it, son. Just do it. Be who you are,' you know. But I think by that time he had started to listen to our argument about the things that we'd been talking, discussing about. And got into a better place of actually listening to us. Because, you know, he just, originally when he'd have these things, he'd just, no, not having that, the church is true, this, you know, and he was gradually coming round to things and that's when he said, I just want to be a normal person, a normal teenager, and I said, well, good you are, just go and be who you are.

That brings us to the end of the active part of our church story anyway. Yeah.

You're both, you're both still on the, on the records of the church. You haven't.

Yes. Yeah. I would, uh, I'm not sure if I find it necessary. I don't know. I, I think when you hear them in Scotland, it's easy to walk away. No, you know, we're not in a Mormon community. You know, I hear stories on that, on that. A Facebook site where people do not believe anymore, 100% do not believe, but still go because they have to keep up appearances because their jobs are wrapped up in it, their marriages are wrapped up in it. You know, it seems like a completely different kind of life, but actually frightens me how, how people have to stick with it for certain things. Here, that's not the case. Nothing really changes.

And we were told, I don't know if it's true or not, we were told that to get our names taken off membership records, you had to apply to the First Presidency, you had to go and speak to your bishop or whatever it was. And as Carolyn says, it didn't really seem necessary. If the church wants us to include us in their membership numbers to look good or whatever, it doesn't really affect us as such, but we are still on the records.

You know, when you were, um, I just want to say before I ask this question, um, for our listeners that I've had the privilege of serving with you both in different callings, different capacities, as you know Debbie has, you know, my family, and Jim Bennett, it's hard to find two more dedicated, devoted individuals, frankly. Carolyn and Andy, from my experience, were absolutely committed, devoted, you know, spiritually, emotionally, physically, with all the time.

Carolyn I think, Ian, that that is part of the problem for me. Yeah. Because I am a black and white person. I'm 100% in or I'm 100% out. And I cannot sit on the fence with one foot in, one foot out. That's not being true to anything or anybody.

And you described me. That's exactly how I am, right? Whereas Debbie is very different to me, right?

Yeah.

I'm in completely. And when I'm in, I am in, right? Like, like you guys were. And when I'm out, I'm done, right? So, uh, and so Jim, uh, Carolyn and Andy were just incredibly faithful and devoted. Um, Carolyn, I think you were Relief Society president at one point.

And, um, you wouldn't think I've ever been president. I certainly was in the Relief Society. But my favorite part, my favorite part was Sunday school teacher.

I watched Sunday school teacher. Yeah. Uh, Jim. Caroline was the most amazing teacher in the world. You were the finest teacher. And then you and I served together, Andy. And, you know, and so that was just wonderful to work with you. And we got a lot. I mean, it was very rewarding spiritually. It was— you mentioned earlier, Andy, that you got, you know, and you as well, Caroline. I mean, you were in, you got a lot from it. It was fulfilling. Spiritually, you come back and you feel, you know, filled spiritually, um, not, notwithstanding all the, you know, some of the challenges. You know, when you were— you were so in— when you were discovering all these issues and, and the problems and asking questions, uh, I, I got two questions. What was the react— did you try talking to other members in the ward, and what was their reaction?

And then what has been the reaction of the member friends in the ward since you I like Ellen Black because she, she spoke to people because she was closer to— I guess, well, in my experience, women are closer to each other than men are anyway. And which is— she, she had lots of women's nights out with current members and also people that were no longer members. She would go on nights out or weekends away with women like that, so she probably had discussions much more than I did.

Right, okay.

Yeah. Um, so I didn't discuss it with a lot of people, but there was a couple of people I did discuss it. I don't want to say names, but my best friend in the church, we have, we still have close relationships with two families, um, and we get on really well. We still go and see each other and things, and we've kind of come to the thing of we just don't discuss the church, right? But I did originally, and I can remember her sitting, she brought me home from something one night. And we were sitting out in my driveway, and in the car for, well, probably over an hour, just talking about different things. And I was telling her the things I'd found out and the problems and like why I wasn't coming back to church because I'm a neither in nor out person, and I was telling her these things, and her reply was interesting. She said to me, I know there's problems in the church, I don't want to know them. And I thought, okay. Because I think for a lot of people, they've given so much that it's— to admit that they were wrong, that somehow they've got this whole thing wrong, um, it's too much for them. So they just want to keep going in ignorance. And she did not want me to tell her, like, I know, I know things aren't right. I know there's a lot of problems. I just don't want to know them. So, um, that's really it. But that's probably the person I spoke most to, and she's still active. I'm not sure she's particularly happy that she's still active, her family.

Um, and it maybe is because we're not active in the church, and other than these two families, the church has really just left us alone entirely. Nobody's tried to bring us back. Nobody has ever knocked on the door to try and come But we don't, we don't know of anybody personally that's still active in the church that doesn't have some doubts, if not a lot of doubts, but still going to church. I don't think we could name somebody that's 100% in the church and is really happy about it and doesn't have any questions.

Because I'm a very black and white person, I kind of, I do get kind of annoyed. We know somebody who, you know, I would say this, but, oh, don't need to worry about that. They're, what's it called, the, um, a cafeteria Mormon, I think they give it that name, the pick and choose. I could never do that. I could never. The church taught me it's either all true— this was the words of an actual prophet, I'm not going to try and remember which one—

um, Gordon B. Hinckley.

Gordon B. Hinckley, thank you, said it's either all true or it's all not, it's all lies. Sì darò. That's what the church taught. They didn't— then, and there's, to me, there's no room for nuance. I, you know, either it's right or it's wrong. And the minute I discovered things about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the things that went on, the Major Masca, I could go on and on and on about all the things I've discovered that I never knew before. Yeah. I think the, probably the worst one for me was finding out how many different versions of the First Vision there was. And how long, how many years it was before Joseph Fife said, 'Told this story.' That's not what the missionaries just when they knock on the door. And I, I just— I've been deceived for years. I cannot be a part of this anymore. But like you say, Ian, there is a lot of good. We loved our time in the church until those doubts came. We were more than happy doing what we were doing. The kids, like Alan, who's the one who— the oldest one who walked away first— will still say to us to this day that the things he was taught as a child the morals and the standards still stick with him, and he's got no problem with that. Um, so yeah, the church does a lot of good. And like, and our kids had a lot— the twins in particular had a lovely life with all their friends in the church, which I think you could count on one hand the amount of them that are still active amongst their friends. Because we had a stake president who, at the time our kids were in Young Men, Young Women, was brilliant with the youth. He organized so many things for them. We used to have them because we're a big stake, unlike the ones in America. I don't know what Canada's like, but you know, Ian, we're a big stake geographically. So we would have all the kids come and stay at our house. I mean, I was climbing over sleeping bags with, you know, teenagers everywhere, um, in our house. We, we wanted the kids to have a good experience, friendship experience, because we thought that's what'll keep them in the church, is if they have good friends, which is what Alan and Paul never had, because back in their day it was dismal. Like, the youth program was terrible. Taylor and Blair had a completely different experience. It was a really good youth experience for them. Um, so yeah, we, we did our best to try and keep everybody active and dodging along, but as soon as these doubts came, like I say, I'm in or I'm out. And I could not, I could not justify anybody, you know, what's it they call it, um, what's the word when they've tried to—

nuanced?

No, I was thinking another word, it will come to me. You know, when you're trying to balance things and, um, reconcile. Yeah, just trying to, you know, trying to think, well, that might have happened, but let's just ignore it because I love the church. And I did love the church. I did, I really did. Um, but I couldn't, I just couldn't. I thought, no, Offit taught me it's either all right or it's all wrong. And I'm telling you, the things I found out, it's wrong.

And your second question was what's life like?

Yeah, we, yeah, I would, if you can ask that question and then I want to bring Jim in, get, I'd like to hear Jim's, uh, thoughts on your story because Jim, you've heard similar stories for quite some, you know, in your life. So if, yeah, what's life like now post, you know, church? And then Jim Bennett, I think it'd be good to get your thoughts on, on what you think about Caroline and his story.

Mine first and then Caroline's. So for me, life outside the church, it's, it's fine. There's, I don't, I miss the social side of it. Like I said, I miss friends. I miss the singing. I miss the gatherings. And I do, I do miss having those kind of what I felt were spiritual moments at the time. Other than that, I don't beat myself up for it. I don't, I don't go seeking out anti-Mormon things or pro-Mormon things. If I hear things or somebody sends me a link, I'll read it. But for me, it's something that I was into for a while, and I'm not now. It doesn't affect me. Caroline's got a very different outlook.

I am more upset. I am more upset about being deceived. You know, that bothers me. However, I can say this hand on heart, I am 100% happier outside the church than I ever was in it. Partly because of my personality, because I am a— if I'm not being, um, 100% faithful or doing everything 100%, if I'm not saying my scriptures every day, if I'm not saying my prayers every day, I would you know, pat myself on the back. That's the type of person I am. And I probably tried to be too perfect, which is a— like, nobody can be perfect, but you're taught, you know, she tried to be as perfect as possible. And I did beat myself up if I wasn't getting things right, or if I felt I was falling short. And I don't have that now. Like, I think the words I used to somebody was, I feel like a grown-up now. I can make my own decisions. If I want to have a glass of wine with my dinner, I'll have a glass of wine with my dinner. I do not need somebody else telling me now how to behave, what to eat, what to drink, what to wear. As a woman, garments were just, you know, I feel that the pressure is off me. I can just be who I am. And I, on the, on the 5 years where I was inactive, because I still had a testimony. It wasn't like that then. They were still in the back of my head, you're doing things wrong, you should be church, you should do da da da da. But now that I have know all the things I know and I'm 100%, um, happy in myself that I've come to the right decision about these things that I know, um, I have no guilt. There's no guilt. I could still be me. I can still be a good person. I can still be a nice person. I just don't have that guilt of having to be perfect all the time.

I think there's another interesting difference between the two of us that for someone from a science background and a non-church background, I still believe that there is something, someone, some kind of being, a God, gods, whatever. And I don't know where or how to find that, but I still feel there is a spiritual side to people.

And that's— and Caroline, yeah, it's actually one of the things that, um, I'm angry at the church about is that it's robbed me of my belief in God. Because I always had it, like I say, for a child, for a tiny child getting sent to the Baptist Sunday school when I was about 5, I, I just always believed in a God. I remember, um, so the lessons on the Sunday, the Baptist was in our local primary school, but once a year we'd all go We'd all walk down to the, to the actual church building that was in Dalkey for a presentation. You know, there's your, we'd get something really lovely because you had perfect attendance or whatever, the kind of things they do in that church. And my granddad came with my mum to one of these presentations, and my mum told me later, she said, my granddad kind of like nudged her on the arm and he went, she takes this really seriously, doesn't she? Like as a child. So even they could see that I was, I was A firm believer in a God. Now I just think, I prayed so hard for you to tell me which church was true. This is where I thought you sent me, and it's not true. So are you even there now? It has robbed me of my belief. I wouldn't say I'm atheist. I'm certainly not sure anymore, and that makes me angry because I always had a belief in God for as long as I can remember. And it's been taken from me, which makes me sad. Jim Bennett.

Well, listening to your story and listening to your experiences, I, I feel a number of connections with you. One of them being the fact that you have twins. We have identical twin boys who are both at BYU at the moment. You're 23 years old and anybody that can survive raising twins automatically has my respect. Uh, you also mentioned the CES letter.

Yeah.

Uh, and so I sort of came to prominence in this kind of podcasting space because I wrote a line-by-line response to the CES letter.

Okay.

And I eventually ended up meeting Jeremy Runnels, who wrote the CES letter, and I consider him a friend at this point. We had a really lovely lunch together, and we've, we've seen each other a number of times since. But his story, I think, is very similar to your story in terms of this idea that You know, it was never anywhere in his, on his radar that he was going to leave the church. And, uh, he, he ended up listening to the, we had Hans Mattson on here, who's a former authority.

Yeah. I know about him.

Is that Swedish Rescue? And, and, and Jeremy had heard from the Swedish Rescue that I think it was Marlon K. Jensen who said that there are people leaving. We've never seen a greater amount of apostasy since Kirkland than what we're having now over these issues.

Yeah.

And so you are not alone. There are a number of people— I'm sure you've discovered that as you've gone through this. As I listen to you, there are a couple of things that jump out at me. That are, are sort of common in these kinds of stories, uh, one being you went to a, um, trusted, respected church leader. You went to your stake president with some of these questions.

Yeah.

And they didn't have any answers for you. And I see that over and over and over again. And one of the things that I I've kind of, I've concluded with regard to how that works is I think very often, and Ian, you can correct me as you've been in a stake presidency, I have not. I've been in a couple of bishoprics, but I've never been in a stake presidency. Uh, very often when somebody goes to a stake leader or a bishop or some other trusted leader and they bring up some kind of historical or doctrinal issue that's troubling them, the response they get is, I think, motivated by fear.

Yeah.

Because the stake president or the bishop, they don't know either. They're, they're a lot like your friend who says, I know there are problems with the church, but I don't want to know what they are. You know, I want to stay ignorant because that's how I can hold on to my testimony. And, and that's I think an increasing problem is that the resources to deal with these kinds of questions just aren't there.

And the essays help? The church essays?

In Ian's case, the essays made the problem worse. I think they make the problem worse for a lot of people.

Me too, yeah.

I mean, Jeremy kept saying, today's anti-Mormon lies are tomorrow's Gospel Topics essays. You know, the things that we were taught, particularly about race and the priesthood. You know, I didn't go to church this last Sunday because I go to Music and the Spoken Word, but my wife came back from church and said that there was this huge discussion in Relief Society by somebody who was mad about the Race and the Priesthood essay, and they said, it's wrong, it's absolutely wrong, and it was only written by men, it wasn't written by prophets.

Yeah.

Okay, well, I mean, all of this, for— as I listen to you, I mean, my heart breaks because, uh, I, I can hear your faithfulness, I can hear your commitment, and I can hear the disappointment that comes out when the church isn't what you wanted it to be or expected it to be.

Yeah.

And, and You know, I've gone through that in a number of different circumstances. I'm sort of going through it right now in that I'm still very frustrated with the fact that two-thirds of American Latter-day Saints decided that fascism is a good thing. And, and, you know, and I'd like— you talk about your bishop that didn't have the discernment. It's like, we're the guys with the gift of the Holy Ghost. We're the ones supposed to to know from error, and we've thrown in with the worst possible human being in the world. Yeah, he talks like it and looks like it. Yeah, I mean, it's just so— I still struggle with these things, but I have, and I've shared this a number of times, but I have felt an answer to prayer that this is where God wants me. This is where I can do the most good, and this is where I'm committed to stay.

I get that from a lot of other people as well.

Everybody's different, and I don't want to— I mean, there are a lot of people that wrestle with that, and they don't get that answer, or they get an answer that's entirely different, and it is not my place to judge that. It's not my place. I think every member of the church— you talk about Cafeteria Mormons. I think every member of the church is a cafeteria Mormon, whether they realize it or not. Everybody lives their own version of what the gospel is. They place emphasis on the things that matter to them. They deemphasize the things that don't matter to them. I mean, they don't think about it in those terms, but the reality is I don't think it's possible. I, the church, there isn't a version of the church that exists independent of the lived experience of the members of the church. And each person's lived experience is different. Each person's lived experience, uh, has a different focus, has a different— anyway, so with all of that said, the, the, the— I believe very strongly that the greatest problem in the church It all boils down to the false doctrine of prophetic infallibility. Yeah, you, you talked about the fact that you, you were taught, you know, these are prophets and they're always right. Yeah, the church could never be wrong. And then you find places where the church is wrong.

Yeah, and that's where the doubts creep in.

That's where the— well, and it's not even— I mean, the, the, the phrase that people use is faith crisis. I think the, the correct phrase, or the phrase that's more accurate, is trust crisis. Yes, you, you no longer trust the church. You no longer trust the leaders of the church. And, and that's exacerbated by being taught over and over again that these men cannot make mistakes. And then you find a mistake, and then you say, well, how can I trust them ever again? And I think if— and the other thing, Andrew, you talk about this idea of, you know, they aren't always speaking as prophets. Sometimes they speak as prophets, sometimes they speak as men, you know. And were they speaking as a prophet? Were they speaking as a man? And I really think that if the church is going to go forward in a healthy, sustainable way, we have to get rid of that dichotomy. We have to accept the reality that every time a prophet speaks, they are speaking as a man, even when they are speaking as a prophet, that there is never a time when their agency is extracted from them and they are incapable of making a mistake. They can get up at the pulpit, and I think the promise that prophets will never lead us astray is a promise of intent. Not impact. Meaning the promise is that the Lord will never allow someone to deliberately try to derail the church, that their intentions will be good. And if they are trying to derail the church, then I think they will be removed. But that does not mean that they can't wander in the wilderness for 40 years. They can't make significant mistakes. I mean, when you talk about mistakes, you know, a lot of members of the church sort of, uh, round off the edges of that by saying, well, yeah, they can make mistakes. They can forget your birthday. They can, they can, uh, you know, uh, make those kinds of mistakes. But when they get up and they preach, they can never make a mistake. And it's like, well, guys, if you believe that, then you have to reconcile, to use Ian's word, some terrible, horrible things, particularly that Brigham Young said about race, that interracial relationships should be punished with death on the spot, and that this is law of God that will always be so. If you can't just say, well, Brigham Young was really quite wrong on that point, then you have to just do these— and I hate the phrase mental gymnastics because I think it's and Shay.

Yeah, that's gymnastics.

That's the phrase you were looking for, the mental gymnastics. Uh, but if you can accept that fallibility is, is not a bug, it's a feature, it's the purpose of mortality. You know, we have a theology where we believe that we came to this earth solely for the purpose of making mistakes, of doing things wrong and learning from them. And that's why we needed a savior who essentially is paying for our education, if you will, at an infinite cost.

And we just stop thinking that about the leaders, don't we? We stop. I don't know what level it is. If it's the, is it the stake, the seventies, or the stake, or the First Presidency where we suddenly, we start thinking that they're not making mistakes anymore. That's interesting.

No, that's exactly right.

It'd also be very difficult to do when you've got all the other members who would shoot you down in flames if you, if you dared to say, that's not right, he's made a mistake there. You know, that especially, you know, I'm trying to say this nicely, especially American Utah Mormons, you know, where they, they really, you just cannot go against the prophet's teachings or you're just the worst of the worst.

I think Jim Bennett puts your, for me, your finger right on it. It's how the church addresses it now. If there were people that, when members have questions like we do, if they're willing to discuss them, not just say, well, you obviously don't have enough faith, or you're listening to anti-Mormon things. If they're willing to talk about them more, that would help members to stay in. And then A whole sea change has to take place within the membership to look at each other and the leaders and not be judgmental and realize the leaders are just us, but in a higher calling. And that was never what we were.

No, that, that is exactly right. You know, when I was 18 years old, I was at the University of Southern California and I went and checked out a copy of The Godmakers, which was the big anti-Mormon book in the '80s. It was the CES Letter of its time. Jeremy hates it when I say that, but That's kind of the way it is. Uh, and that's where I learned a lot of these troubling issues. And I was in a unique situation in that I took my doubts and questions, uh, to two people particularly. One was my father and the other was my uncle, who was also the stake president in Los Angeles. I'm not a Utah Mormon by— I grew up in Southern California. So when you say Utah Mormon, I'm not offended, even though I've lived in Utah much longer than I've lived in Southern California now. But I— both of them were patient, kind, and were able to help me sort of walk through these things. And they didn't have the kind of fear response because I think, Andrew, that when they say to you, you don't have enough faith, you shouldn't be listening to this, that's coming from a place of fear. That's coming from, well, I've never listened to this and I don't know the answer. And all I can tell you is you shouldn't have listened to it and you're bad. And they start to shame you instead of actually dealing with your questions. And that, I think, has just— we keep digging that hole. I mean, that's now essentially the response. I mean, we've had several talks in conference and at BYU devotionals and other places where they've addressed faith crisis. And the main thing they do to, to address it is essentially shame the person. Yeah. You know, they use this, uh, I think it was Elder Renlund used this analogy of lazy learners. I've remembered the lazy learners. You're the lax disciples. Yeah. But it's Elder Renlund who used this analogy of, um, there's this guy, this kid essentially that's out drowning. And this old fisherman comes and picks him up in a battered kind of boat. And the kid gets in the boat and starts asking for, uh, Perrier water and only gets canteen water. And then is disgusted because this boat isn't nice enough, even though it saved his life. And then he jumps out of the boat and gets eaten by sharks. I mean, that's the analogy. And, and, and so the moral of the story is If you aren't satisfied with the answers you're getting, you're just like a kid who would rather drown than not drink really high-quality bottled water. I mean, it's, it's, it's the thing. And the other thing the church does, or at least has gotten better at, but the church does acknowledge that they are capable of making mistakes. In, um, what's the word I'm looking for? In general. I mean, theoretically. Exactly, that's the word. Theoretically, yes, the church can make mistakes. And then the minute you say, okay, which ones? Tell me, tell me a mistake. Uh, then you're not allowed to do that at all. I mean, Ian talks a lot about, uh, then-President Uchtdorf. He's now Elder Uchtdorf, but he was in the First Presidency when he gave that wonderful talk, "Come Join with Us," and he said there are times in our history when leaders have simply made mistakes. And a lot of people heard that and went, "Well, yeah, of course they made mistakes, but then they sort of— but they were these kinds of mistakes. They were tiny mistakes. They couldn't have possibly made big mistakes." And so the church The church, yeah, doctrinally, in his very first press conference as a member of the First Presidency, Dallin H. Oaks said, we do not believe in infallible leaders. And, you know, so the church is happy to say that, but they're not happy if you have any follow-up questions. If you, if you want to say, well, okay, so leaders aren't infallible, so leaders can make mistakes, can you please tell me Was this a mistake? Could this have been a mistake? I mean, the Gospel Topics Essays, one of the reasons why I think they're counterproductive is that they're sort of a half measure. That, that yes, okay, we acknowledge there's been a problem, but we don't want to let anybody know that these essays even exist, so we're going to just release them quietly. And then when you read in particular—

Hard to find.

Yeah, they're very hard to find. And you read the Race and the Priesthood essay, and they acknowledge that everything that we taught about, you know, Black people bearing the curse of Cain, Black people being fence-sitters or less righteous in the premortal existence, you know, all these things, all those are wrong. But they're not willing to cross that line and say, and the priesthood ban itself was wrong too. All they can say is—

That's where the issue comes in though, because if they do do that, how many people are going to walk away?

Well, but the thing is, I mean, you're right.

If they handled it properly, they wouldn't walk away.

Well, the thing is, I think short term, if the church were to come out and admit, okay, yes, we have been wrong on things large and small, including race in the priesthood and other things, I think there will be some people that walk away. But I think, uh, I think we are, um, we are selling the future at the cost of the present. That because I think the minute the church is able to admit fallibility, uh, they are able to build trust. It becomes easier to trust somebody if they can come to you and say, you know what, I was wrong and I hope you can forgive me, but I was wrong. That's somebody you end up trusting. And I mean, if the church were to be able to do that long term, people then it's like, well, yeah, I discovered the church really goofed up on this.

Do you not think so, that that's taken away the whole selling off the church, the pre— that we have a living prophet who talks to God, tells us how to live our lives, guides us. That's the whole crux to me of the church. It's one of the biggest differences in other churches. There's a living prophet who talks to God. And if they then say that, well, maybe he doesn't always talk to God and maybe he does tell us things wrong and there is a fallibility. That's a big thing for them to lose their claim of being, you know, the church that has God as its head who actually speaks to a living prophet. They would lose that.

Yeah, I think what you've just said, Caroline, is the most serious red thread running through the entire tapestry of the church, because, you know, the whole premise of the church is on the divinity You know, the, the prophet and the church claims to be the only true church upon the face of the earth, Section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants, and that the prophet is not only the prophet for the members of the church and investigators, but the prophet for the world. In fact, he is the, the definitive, exclusive, sole mouthpiece of Jesus Christ, uh, here on the earth. And so we, we are asked to put our complete trust in him, and that he— we're told that he will never lead us astray, literally, not just figuratively, but literally. And so the problem, I think, and Jim Bennett's right, I think it's that problem of infallibility with leaders, is that, you know, when is the prophet speaking as a man or as a prophet? You made a point earlier, Andy, about how do we really know if he's speaking as a prophet or if he's speaking as a man? I mean, that's a whole other there's never been a talk that I recall at church conference or even any stake conference around that subject about when do we know if he's speaking as a man or not. I think the church will never go there because that is the keystone, right, I think, of the church. You know, the church— prophets have said the church rests or falls on whether we, you know, that the prophet is, you know, if Joseph Smith was a prophet or not. Whether we have a living prophet or not, and whether the Book of Mormon is the word of God or not, right, being the keystone. And so that fundamental building block there, if there's any doubt in people's minds whether the prophet is making a mistake, you know, why on earth would you follow somebody at the risk of them making a mistake? And the church has made some serious mistakes, very serious mistakes. It introduced those very strict, changes in regards to, um, uh, LGBTQ in 2015, Jim. Um, you know, in regards to, uh, you know, children staying with, uh, you know, one of the gay parents and restrictions on children in terms of getting baptized, et cetera. Yeah. Restrictions obviously on, on people who were gay going to the church. That was another broader conversation. And then it reversed it. Was it 2019, Jim? I think they reversed it, or 2000.

3 and a half years later.

2 and a half years later. So that's one of many examples where the church, and by the way, on that point, just to, I wanna highlight this, President Nelson, was he the prophet at the time, Jim, at that time? 2015, I think, who was the president?

He was the president of the Quorum of the Twelve at a time when President Monson, who was the prophet, was incapacitated.

Right, okay. I remember one of the prophets, it could have been President Nelson, I think it was, where he went into great lengths. I think he's on video saying this as well, describing the revelatory process.

No, it was President Nelson. While he was president, he described— he was at BYU-Hawaii.

Yeah.

And he described that they were all wrestling with what to do in the wake of the legalization of gay marriage throughout the United States by the United States Supreme Court. And but then finally, the spirit of revelation rested on the prophet President Thomas Monson, who spoke the word of the Lord. And then there was a unanimous consent among the apostles. And the problem with that is that none of the other apostles recall any such meeting of this taking place. And in fact, Elder Christofferson, who was called upon to speak directly by Church PR about it, learned about it from the press, learned about the policy change from the press. So when President Nelson said that, it just caused a lot of consternation because people, the other apostles, did not back up that there had been that kind of a meeting. And when the policy was reversed 3 and a half years later, Uh, there was really no explanation as to why there was one revelation 3 and a half years prior that said this, and now we're receiving another, because they sold the reversal as a revelation too. Yeah. And these were diametrically opposed to each other, and yet they were both ex— so apparently God changed his mind.

Explain that then.

They didn't. They didn't explain it, and it caused a lot of problems, and it caused a lot of trust crises. And, and it, you know, I, it's interesting when you talk about the fact, well, this is the selling point of the church, that the selling point of the church is we have a prophet that speaks directly to God. And the way people see, I, I don't believe that President Nelson or any prophet, except on very rare occasions, I don't believe they experience a connection to the divine any different from the one that, uh, you, you and I experience.

Mm-hmm.

That they get their revelation through promptings, through prayer, through, uh, through the same sort of process. These are the same kinds of people. I think, you know, there are exceptions to that, but I spent a great deal of my time growing up, particularly— I'm not sure when I finally decided this was nonsense, but I grew up thinking that, okay, yeah, the apostles meet every week in the upper rooms of the temple, and there's probably an extra chair there for when Jesus comes. And he hasn't come— maybe he doesn't come every week, but You know, sometimes he brings the refreshments, you know, so he shows up every other week maybe, you know, I no longer believe that. And, you know, when pressed, the apostles, they try very hard to sort of maintain an ambiguity about that. It's like, well, when they're asked specifically, have you seen Jesus Christ?

Yeah.

They give these sort of evasive answers.

And to me, prophets, apostles of the Lord, would not do that. Like, they would be last. And the church is like— one of your tithing questions, are you honest in all your dealings with your fellow man? And I went out of my way to make sure I could answer that. I could not tell a lie if my life depended on it. But the church is lying to us, and the prophets will not, or the apostles will not come out and be honest about these things. Like, yeah, it's just, I don't even know how to explain it.

You're describing a trust crisis.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

I think if the— I often wonder how the church is going to survive, especially with the way society changes now with the LGBTQ+ and all the other issues going on. And it does have to try and kind of reorganize or rebrand itself. Like you said, Jim Bennett, admit that prophets are men. And even if they don't go as far as to say that they're always speaking as men, but to admit the fact that they could, they can make mistakes.

So they've painted themselves—

it'll be interesting to see how they can, how they can save the church in some kind of form, because there was lots about it that I liked and still like. And there's lots of things in, in Christian faith and other faiths, but in Christian faith that I think are great for people to learn. And I enjoyed learning them in the Mormon Church. And it'd be sad to see that completely disappear, but I don't know how it's going to survive and rebrand and move forward from this.

Because they pinned themselves into a corner by telling everybody that the prophets are always right, that they will never lead you astray. And they've got these, um, you know, issues with the LGBTQ, which— and it's the same with the, um, back in the day when polygamy was on, that was a thing. And then all of a sudden they realized, oh, we're not going to be able to do this or that. The next thing, suddenly, suddenly, um, remarkably, there's a revelation that says we're not doing it anymore. You know, it's just— so if it was right then, why— and I'm not just talking about polygamy, but anything— if it was right then, If this prophet said that's how it was to be, God must make, must make some big mistakes because he's changing them. Like 3 and a half years later, he's changing them.

Right.

That's just—

with race in the priesthood, no, but like race in the priesthood, uh, we are more comfortable saying God was a racist than we are saying that Brigham Young was a racist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because we can't have Brigham Young be wrong.

Right. But getting back to your whole idea of this, the central thing is the president of the church, the prophet, that's the key feature of the church. I think the way forward is that the key feature of the church, not a bug, but the feature of the church is its fallibility. That we embrace, we have this whole theology of this idea of the reason we came to earth is that we lived in the presence of God for an eternity before we came here, and we didn't have to exercise faith. We didn't have to choose good versus evil because the preeminent example— we always knew what the right thing to do was because we were living in the presence of God. And we left the presence of God because the only way to learn and to grow is to be fallible. I mean, I think if the church were to not just sort of acknowledge this grudgingly, which is kind of the direction we're going, sort of, but we're not really even willing to do that. But I think it needs to be a full-on embrace of, yes, we are fallible, we make mistakes. That is the purpose of mortality, and that is why we need Jesus Christ so desperately. I think that is the only way forward. And I think that, yes, I think a lot of people will say, "Well, I don't need your church then." But I think a lot more will also say, "It's so wonderful to share this kind of community and have this fellowship of saints who are all fallible together, even their leaders, and all of us can work together to build the kingdom of God." I think that is a powerful story. I think that's the story the church ought to be telling. And right now it doesn't seem to be the one that we're telling. And I think that your experience demonstrates just how short we're falling on that.

We're coming to the end of the podcast. Jim Bennett has articulated exactly what I was going to say. So I think that's really, really good. Um, it ties to what you both are saying, but also what you were saying, Andy, about, um, you said earlier, I made some notes here that, you know, how if the church handled it differently, you know, when people have questions, um, and they handle it differently because, you know, the church puts so much resources into the missionary effort. You know, you know, missionaries go to the MTC, they get trained for 3 weeks, they learn a language, um, you know, they go away for 2 years, huge resources behind the missionary effort., you know, globally. And the church spends, uh, hundreds of millions of dollars on the missionary effort to bring people in. And then the training that bishops get, uh, and when I was the bishop in Dalkeith, uh, this is a training that we got, was to, you know, when, when, um, so we'd meet with, um, President Watson every quarter, and we'd meet with some of the general authorities sometimes. And the training we would get is how do we more effectively and efficiently retain people that came into the church. So a lot of training and support to how to help bishops and bishoprics. And you and I served on the same bishopric, Andy, so we talked about this. Yeah. You know, how do we help keep people in the church? So a lot of time, a lot of resources, you know, people get callings and they serve. And I want to highlight something we say because it's really important that there's a great amount of joy that comes from serving in the church. I felt it, you felt it, you feel it, Jim Bennett. And I want to, despite all these challenges, want to— and that's something when you said earlier, Andy, you miss— I really miss that. That really resonated with me, and personally and emotionally, I miss that deeply. And it breaks my heart that I don't have that, in that way anymore. I get it in other ways now. Um, but the, the reward and the fulfillment that you can have through serving the church is extraordinary. It really is. But then when you have questions and doubts, the church becomes, for me at least, and probably Caroline, I know you felt the same thing, becomes a place, uh, you don't feel safe to ask questions.

No, you can't.

And, and, and then if you do ask questions like I did, in my experience, you get labeled as a doubter and a troublemaker or whatever, right? So, and there's no, and Jim made this point earlier, there's no, and you spoke to this, Annie, as well, there's very limited or virtually no resources. So all the resources are here, you know, to come into the church, significant resources to keep people in the church, keep people active and busy, which is great. And then all of a sudden there's virtually, it's like a cliff, a drop-off, you're on your own. And the closer you go to the more difficult questions is the edge of the cliff. And you find as you get towards the cliff, all of a sudden there's no one around you. You're there by yourself. You've got these questions. There's no support, if any. And the question I've got before we close our podcast is, and by the way, I want to thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your story and your experiences.

Pleasure.

As any, you mentioned earlier that no one's reached out, you know, you've left the church, you're happy. You feel like an adult. You've got some, you miss some things, which I, you know, you spoke about Andy, about the spirituality. You, but you, you're happy with your life and you found a place in life and you're close to your family. Family's now probably, Alan is probably feeling much more connected. Um, this individual, much more connected. Yeah. And so, and I did pick up on that. Um, but since you, you see, talked earlier how you've had little or no support since you left the church, um, has anyone asked you why you left the church? And then, okay, interesting, right?

Not one, not even, not even the people that were still close to me.

That topic is studiously avoided.

Right, right. Interesting. And I think that's, to Jim's point, I think that's probably—

No, no, come on. From what I can surmise from the Facebook page and things I'm on, no, they don't want to ask you. They're kind of told don't ask because we might tell them something that's going to ruin their church life as well. And part of you, we don't want to do that.

Especially young missionaries. We've had missionaries come to the door a few times over the years. And not because they were saying, just because they were knocking on doors. And it's kind of like kicking a puppy. You don't want to dampen it. They're out there, they're taking their time, and it must be so frightening for them as well. You don't want to dampen their enthusiasm for something. You see, if they're getting something out of it just now, that's great.

I would only tell people my problems with the church if they asked me. I would never try and, you know, I was like this actually, um, even as a member. I was not a pushy member that tried to, you know, get on my neighbor's, joining the church, right? That just wasn't me. I'm not like that. I would, I would hope that they would come to me and ask me if they saw good things, that kind. I always thought it was better to try and, um, be a good example and people might want to know why. So I would never push a Mormon like that. And then neither am I on the other side of the coin. I would not, you know, unless somebody came and specifically said, what was your problems? Why did you leave? I will never bring it up. I will never go because I didn't want to take that away. Like I say, I'm angry and sad that it's been taken from me, my belief in God. I don't want to do that to anybody else.

Right.

I don't want to.

I think that, that those, that, that comment speaks volumes about your integrity, Caroline, and yours, Andy, as well. You know, these, these missionaries that knock on the door, they're kids ultimately, and they, they don't have probably haven't got— they haven't had the training, um, to deal with the tough questions that, you know, the, the questions that, um, probably we didn't have maybe as missionaries at times, Jim, when you and I were serving in Scotland. And as we come to a close here, um, the final question I have for you both, and I want to get your response to this, and I want to hand some time over to give opportunity for Jim Bennett to give his some closing thoughts that he, he may have. But my question for you is, with all your experience, you know, coming to the church, Caroline, you came in, you know, and then you left for a while, and then you came back in and you met Andy, then you came back in and you had, for the most part, a wonderful experience. Then the questions came and the issues came and you've left and you're in this place, you know, now, Andy, you still believe. Caroline, you are more agnostic. You're not sure.

You don't know who, you know, definitely not an atheist, just not sure.

And that's common as well. My question, last question is, um, what advice would you give someone, a couple or an individual who is at the, who's got questions and they, they, they, they're trying to navigate their faith. And then, and then after your response, Jim, if you could share your final thoughts or comments, that would be great. And then, and then we'll close.

Is this a couple that's in the church navigating faith or a couple trying to find a church? You mean navigating faith?

Your question, is that like a thumbs up?

Yeah, my question is, yeah, somebody who is, well, whatever you want to answer. If someone is in the church, they're struggling with questions and doubts, what advice would you give them to help them? Navigate the faith?

Whoa, my goodness. That is a hard one. I think because I am a genuinely honest person, like I have a, you know, my background, I have a reason. I'm not going to go into that, but why I just cannot tell lies. It ruined my childhood. My dad was the biggest liar walking and it's, I hate it. Cannot. So I would not, I would, I would just say to them, well, eh, I'll give you answers to how I feel, but only if you want them. But I would say just be honest with yourself, um, look into things, you know, research, look, look for your answers. And then when you get them, just be honest with yourself about how you feel about them. And don't, don't try to stay in, don't try to get out, just go, like, go where it takes you.

I think I would say it's a difficult one. Try and find somebody to talk to in, in the church, in your bishopric or your stake.

Try and find somebody that's willing to try and get answers to your questions and then go where those answers take you. Might be in, might be out. I would never push them in either direction. I would just say try and find some answers, even if it's from your leaders or if it's from study, looking into things, being on that, like that Facebook group that I joined because I was looking for answers. That's— that I think it is— it's a difficult question because you didn't want to rob people of their church membership, their, you know, it's— and I know, like, as I said in the beginning, it's easy for us here in Scotland because we're few and far between to walk away from the church, is not a big deal. But when you're in an area where your— all your neighbors are Mormons and your friends that you work with are Mormons and I mean, I hear some of the stories, it breaks my heart about how one girl said that her husband had sent her a text message to say, you either get your act together, stop asking questions, or I am leaving because I want the temple marriage thing. Like, these are things that are happening to people, um, in the States, in particular in Utah. So you would never want to Oh, you know, put somebody down a particular direction. All I would say is, look for answers, pray. I never prayed harder in my life than the months leading up to me walking away. I prayed so hard, driving my car everywhere I went. I was wrestling with myself and praying and praying and praying. And I just went to where that took me. And I'd say the same advice to other people, go where the answers take you.

Well, that's, that's wonderful advice. Thank you so much, Jim Bennett. Any closing thoughts from, from your end?

No, no thoughts other than to thank both Carleen and Andy for just being such wonderful human beings and for sharing your story. I think, I think you're going to help a lot of people by sharing this and by being so open with it.

I hope so.

And I think you were going to help the church whether the church realizes it or not, because there are so many people, so many good, wonderful people like you who've had similar experiences. And those of us who are still in the church need to hear these stories so that we can, you know, so that we can fix the problems. So we can get to the kind of church that you would want to come back to.

Yeah, I was just going to say about helping people, um, on the Facebook site, somebody was asking about tithing and saying she doesn't want to pay it anymore because of where the church is sending it and keeping it and blah blah blah, but has been indoctrinated her whole life that it's your fire insurance and your life will fall apart and she's saying like, how do people navigate this? What, like, how? So I actually replied to her saying, well, we stopped paying tithing a long time ago. And my husband now earns 3 times more than he did when we were in the church. Like, not the— the world did not fall in. And she said, these are the kind of stories that people need to hear more to take away this fear that, like, good people have real fear about following their own hearts because, well, they might be 4th, 5th generation Mormons. It's all they've ever known, and they're scared, you know, they're scared to make— to do things, to take steps, and she says, these are the— this is what people need to hear. The world does not fall in, the sky does not fall in when you're not being completely obedient like we were told to be, which brings us background to the prophets and things that they're asking us to do. Oh yeah, I hope it does help somebody, you know, helps them to stay or leave or be happy. Yeah, happiness, that's what we all want in life, is happiness.

Andy, Caroline, I, you know, on behalf of our listeners, I want to thank you both for being, uh, coming on and having this conversation. And on a personal note, it's so good to see you both. Um, family and I love you dearly. You mean so much to us. Uh, we know you personally. Your story, uh, connects with me, uh, in a different way because I know you both. You're wonderful people. You're kind. I've served with you. I've seen the service that you've given. I can vouch for it. You gave everything, everything. I was there with you side by side. And, um, you know, I know you bless the lives of many, and I know this will, uh, cover— it will help so many as well. And that's the point of the podcast, is to, um, share our experiences openly and honestly. Sometimes, uh, you know, we make ourselves vulnerable, you know, when we share our stories, but good can come from that, you know, by opening up and sharing, you know, how difficult it is and challenges and the questions and doubts that we have, it will connect with others who are going through the same experience. I want to thank you sincerely so much. Jim, I want to thank you as well for your always valuable contribution. I always learn. I feel like an apprentice and Jim's the supreme high lord commander of the universe.

I learn. You said it's not a leader, Ian.

You are Yeah, but you're so much, you're so much wiser than me. Uh, so yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm more of a, the, uh, I, I learn as much as anyone on these conversations and he's been incredibly helpful. So I want to thank you and express our love to you. Uh, and also please give Paul and, and Alan and the rest of the family our love. Um, I miss you all and I hope to see you in Scotland, uh, at some point next year when I'm, David and I want to come to Edinburgh and so, uh, Uh, it'd be great to get together. But, uh, thank you, thank you, Jim Bennett, again for your always valuable contribution. And, uh, on behalf of all the listeners, thank you. And, uh, until, uh, uh, next time, next week when we do another podcast, uh, we, uh, appreciate, uh, this, uh, experience that we've had with you today. Thank you.

Thank you both.

Thank you.

Thank you all.