A Conversation with Beth Magnetic

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes. I'm here with the delightful Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello, Ian. You are equally delightful, if not more so.

So, well, thank you. Yes, thank you. It's great to be with you again. I always love doing these, these podcasts. Again, to remind our listeners that our podcast is designed to help people, support people, whether you're in the church or out the church, navigating issues and trying to find a safe space to understand and discuss and learn about some of the challenges that active members go through and post-Mormons go through. I think this is the place. I think we are the only true and living podcast upon the face of the whole earth.

With, with the Lord is well pleased.

The Lord is well pleased. And, uh, we, as you know, we've had some amazing guests over the last 2 years. We're coming up in April 2025. I think that marks 2-year milestone at the Inside Out podcast series.

Yeah.

And we're still going. And so, and we're growing, which is exciting. And this week we have a very special guests on our podcast. Indeed, we have here with us Beth Magnetic. Hello, Beth.

Hi, thanks for having me, guys.

It's a real pleasure to meet with you. And your last name is— we've got it as Magnetic, and I love that name.

So I had a business before I came into the ex-Mormon space, and it was Magnetic Branding Method and Magnetic Entrepreneurs and whatnot. So when I got divorced, I just took my business name. As my stage name, basically, for all of us.

I am impressed with that. I wish I'd have done that. Wilkes is a little bit boring, but I'd love to have a really cool, cool last name. And hopefully that name draws or attracts good people into your life.

And it doesn't attract people I'm not compatible with. So it's perfect.

It's good for you, Jim. We should change the last name, eh?

I'm thinking Ian Electric for you, and I could be Jim Spasmotic, but that's not nearly as exciting.

I think people will find Ian Electric a bit shocking.

There you go. Little on the nose there, but that was my joke of the week.

I'm here all week. But Beth, it's a real delight to have you with us. So, uh, as we discussed earlier, um, if you are comfortable, just give us a bit about your background, you know, growing up, you know, your early years in the church, your experience in the church, and bring us up to where you are right now. And, uh, and, and, and from that point, we will have a back and forward conversation. Very keen to learn a bit more about you. Um, and then at some point in our conversation, we'd love to talk to you about patriarchy in the church and also talk to you about Mormon crime, maybe that's the right term, phrase to use. And specifically, if we can at least include what I would describe or use as affinity crime, something that I've had to deal with, sadly, as a bishop in a ward and on a stake presidency, we had to deal with those issues. And we'd love to get into that part of the conversation with you a bit later on in the podcast. So give us a bit of, uh, story background, if you will. Yeah.

So I was born in the, born in the covenant. I was born in East Utah. And, uh, when I was 2, my parents separated and I moved down to Arizona, um, where I lived with my mom while she got her nursing degree. And then when I was 5, they tried to get back together for a little bit and, uh, it Did not work out. And, um, my parents separated or divorced when I was 5, and then within 6 weeks my mom remarried, uh, in the temple to another man who was my stepdad forever. My mom and my stepdad are the kind of people who— they were at the Preparing a People event that Lori and Chad Daybell were at down here in Arizona. They are preppers. They are hardcore. Uh, Chad and Lori Vallow, or Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, uh, in the famous loin fire text messages between them, they talk about a man named Bruce Porter who was giving them the stink eye as these two married people were way too, uh, affectionate for what they should have been. And Bruce Porter is somebody that my parents tried to get me to go listen to when I was leaving the church, uh, because he does these like 8-hour seminars every Saturday explaining to you why historic issues in the church are not actually issues. And so anyway, I did not, uh, go down that road, but my family is very much in that prepper space where they've taken their Mormonism to a whole new tier. And so I grew up in a home where, uh, I was definitely abused, very much isolated for, uh, long periods of time. As a teenager, I was, I was homeschooled, but, um, my parents would ground me for a month at a time, and I would not be allowed to leave my bedroom for a month at a time except to go to the bathroom or eat or do chores. It was a, a very, you know, it was If Ruby Frankie, if that capacity had existed, it would've been very much like the Frankies. So anyway, I experienced the radicalized but still in the church version of Mormonism growing up. And so lots of people who did not experience Mormonism that way, you know, they'll be like, oh no, that's not true. That's not, that's not what we believe. That's not what we do. But there is certainly a, a, a Faction inside the LDS Church that certainly does practice it that way. And so anyway, I also lived in Anchorage with my ex-husband when Israel Keyes, the serial killer, was caught. And we found out that his parents were Mormon. And, um, then we also were down here in Arizona when Chad and Lori were arrested. And, uh, I was in Rexburg when there was the hearing for David Konecko, who lived with the mummified remains of his daughter and wife. For years, um, before they were discovered. And so I just had close proximity to a lot of crime-based issues. My, uh, my dad that my mom separated from, uh, they got divorced in 1993, which was the year that Jeffrey Dahmer was, uh, arrested and everything came out. And my dad had said that he was going to be the next Jeffrey Dahmer and he would be, uh, killing my whole family and, and cannibalizing us and make— making it look, uh, making Jeffrey Dahmer look mild was the phrase that he used. So I just started, yeah, as a 6-year-old paying attention to crime, and then thing after thing after thing in my life just made it so that it's something that's been at the forefront of my mind. And just looking at Why are these things happening? And so, uh, at one point, I, during Lori Daybell's trial in Idaho, I ended up, um, just doing a bunch of TikToks. They didn't do video of her trial, so I would listen to the audio and then I would report on, this is what they said in this testimony, this is what they said in this testimony. And my TikTok, you know, got 16,000 new followers. In less than a week with that. And so then I, uh, ended up doing a good amount of content around Mormonism and crime. So that's where we're at.

That's extraordinary. Um, when did you, um, uh, just going back to your early years in the church, you know, when you're going to the church, what was your experience with church, serving in the church, leaders of the church in your earlier years?

I love the church. I was so devoted to the church. I believed it heart and soul. Um, I struggled to be the, uh, you know, devout young adult that I was supposed to be, uh, where, you know, I was, I was an old maid because I got married at 23 instead of, you know, 18 and a half. And so everybody was just always kind of like, well, what's wrong with her? What's wrong with her? Right? And, um, anyway, ended up getting married at, at 23. I had 2 kids while I was still in the church. Um, in 2014, I read the CES Letter, and that was when it all just came undone for me. Uh, I believed the church was true in the morning, and then by dinnertime I was like, well, Whole life is a lie. So, uh, then I was in a mixed faith marriage for, um, 8 years and we got divorced. We separated in 2022 at that point. Um, and I have, uh, the 2 kids. I have a son who is severely disabled. He has autism, but he also has PANDAS, which is when strep goes to the brain. Um, and there's, there's damage to the brain, um, and the basal ganglia. It causes encephalitis, uh, in the brain. So a lot of people will say like, oh, mental— this is mental illness, not Mormonism. Um, but as somebody who lives with and deals with mental illness, uh, in a profound way in my life every day, it gets very ignorant to say that there, we can just dismiss everything as mental illness in these cases.

Yeah. Yeah.

What was it? Um, two thoughts listening to your story is extraordinary, actually. And so sorry you had to go through all this pain and anguish, all those different experiences. Each one is a story in its own right, I'm sure. What was the thing, if any, was there one particular thing in the CES letter that really changed how you viewed the church and actually was the catalyst of, you know, changing your beliefs in the church, or was it a series of things? And the second thought I've got, question is, could you speak to the relationship between mental health and those members who absolutely commit Uh, with exactness and go sometimes extreme and will go above and beyond and become quite fundamentalist at times where they take everything literally, very biblical, Old Testament approach. You talked about prepping, you know, where the church teaches some things, and I think for the most part church teaches a, we could argue against this, but generally on certain themes and topics can be quite moderate in my experience, but where members can take those seemingly moderate or intended moderate teachings and turn them into something quite extreme and the relationship between that and mental health, if that makes sense. So what was one thing or a couple of things or whatever it was in the system that actually triggered your change in your faith? And the second question is, what's your thoughts and experiences and insights into the relationship between the Mormon doctrine, um, the culture of the church and its impact on mental health. Could you speak to those two things?

Yeah. So, uh, so with your first question, what was it that really was the catalyst? So it, for me, began when I was pregnant with my daughter and I was sitting there thinking, If God is a perfect parent, why is it that God can't handle me being in his presence if I'm not perfect? And, uh, I could never imagine not wanting my child around me because of this, um, because she's— she isn't perfect. Um, so that, that began it. And then I was in therapy right after she was born, and my therapist handed me a book called Toxic Parents to read. And, uh, I ended up reading that, and there was a section where they really spell out what does an abuser do. And it said an abuser will control their victim down to the underwear that they're allowed to wear. And I immediately just started laughing because I was like, oh, so if the church was a person, they'd be abusive. And so I had had, you know, these kind of little experiences. I was going to the temple over and over and over trying to feel something, and I felt nothing. And so all of these like little things were putting cracks in my shelf, you know. And then suddenly, uh, my friend posts online about how Joseph Smith practiced polyandry, and I go to Fair Mormon and I read Fair Mormon's explanation, and I was like, huh, that's not a very good like dismissal of this issue. And so I ended up, joining the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook group, uh, and somebody was mentioning the CES Letter. And so I read the CES Letter. In the CES Letter, like, it— yes, there was like the whole onslaught of like thing after thing after thing. It's like, you know, you, you might have heard of all of these things separately, but when you see them together, it's crazy. But the thing that really did me in was the Book of Abraham, where it is without question not what Joseph Smith claimed it to be. And so then it just completely makes it so that it's a lot harder to believe in all of the other things that were supposedly true that he prophesied or his other translations. And so if his other translations aren't real, then how can we believe in the Book of Mormon? So. So yeah, so there's that. Um, and then the mental health aspect. So when it comes to mental illness and Mormonism, I think that there certainly is a case to be made for does Mormonism cause mental illness? Perhaps. I think it's much more likely that people have mental illness and their mental illness latches onto some of the problematic parts of Mormonism. The authoritarian views of Mormonism, the, uh, perfect obedience attitudes within Mormonism. I remember going to BYU-Idaho, uh, and they had this sign that said the spirit of Ricks is perfect obedience. And so when you start to look for perfect obedience and scrupulosity, people with OCD will become scrupulous and they will try to be the perfect Mormon. We also talk about further light and knowledge. We also talk about, uh, you know, being the best person that you can, and that, that perfect, uh, we should become perfect. And perfect is when you're complete. All right, well, when am I complete? So it's these people who are constantly searching for the next layer of Mormonism, line upon line, precept upon precept, and their mental illness latches onto it and such a dangerous way. So we end up having somebody, uh, there is not a darn thing in Lori Vallow's story that I have not been able to find a historic or doctrinal explanation for. So while most people are going to read about demonic possession in the Bible and be like, okay, that's wild, I don't want to have anything to do with that, if Lori believes 100% with, you know, every fiber of her being that demonic possession is real, and her son starts to have behavior issues, and she goes to her doctors and there's no explanation that her doctors can give her, then she's going to start to look for, uh, other, other explanations for it. And so she started to look to energy healing, and she started to look to the church, and she found explanations. So there's no way for us to actually know this or prove this because JJ is gone, but Lori Vallow's son, he was autistic. Um, and my son is also autistic, and he has something called PANDAS, which stands for Pediatric Acute Onset Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infection. So what happens is a child will contract strep, strep throat, and, uh, we hear all the time that like strep can turn to scarlet fever, it can turn to rheumatic fever. Which damages the heart. What the AAP has only acknowledged as recently as December 16th, 2024, is that pediatric acute neuro— neuro— pandas— that it, uh, it can actually settle in the brain. Strep can settle in the brain and it can cause dramatic behavioral and mental health issues. It can cause psychosis and hallucinations. It is hugely problematic. And so it's estimated that, uh, by, uh, Panda's Network, the Panda's Network and other organizations, that up to 30% of kids who have been diagnosed with autism also have, uh, PANDAS. And so it's entirely possible that JJ had this brain encephalitis that my son also has. So the reason that I think that this is really important to discuss is the fact that pandas historically was believed to be things like demonic possession. And so we have doctors— the AAP until December 2024 did not believe that pandas existed. And so Lori could have been going to doctor after doctor after doctor after doctor like we did for 5 years. And been told that there is absolutely nothing, you know, nothing wrong with JJ above and beyond, oh, he has fetal alcohol syndrome perhaps, and autism. And this is just autism. Just deal with it. So Lori, thinking this is just autism, she starts to, uh, look for her, her mom gut is telling her, no, this is not just autism. There's something. Above and beyond autism. So she looks to the sources that she has at her disposal to figure out what is going on. And what's going on, um, if you look at it from a religious perspective, okay, demonic possession, so we need to do things to cast out demons. Uh, we have energy work, and energy work will help me to get rid of, of the evil spirits because it's not just autism. And I, you know, she knows that in her gut. So if we have this as just one mental illness and then we have millions and millions of members of the church, they— and they are looking to priesthood blessings, they're looking to, uh, the scriptures, they're looking to church doctrine, they're looking to all of these other, uh, things within the church to explain these mental illnesses or make them go away or just deal with them in any way. We can end up in some really dangerous scenarios. We also know that Ruby Frankie, she also was deciding that her children were possessed by demons. So this is not a one-off thing. And while the average person is going to look at all of this and they're not going to decide that their child's possessed, enough people are, and there are incredibly dangerous outcomes, uh, or we have the Konecko family from Rexburg, Idaho, where they developed, um, a collective psychosis together based on believing that Jesus was about to return. And the mother and daughter starved themselves to death, and then the dad lived with their bodies for a year and a half and 3 years. So these are not— these are not just like innocent little, you know, uh, mental illness Plus, uh, Mormonism is like, oh, it's a little rough. The church is not doing anything to make it so that we're like actually dealing with and identifying mental illness. They're presenting themselves as the solution and the results, it's deadly.

You know, I'm listening to you and my heart is just breaking, uh, especially since I, I mean, I don't know if We did an episode with my son Samuel, who was a missionary and was diagnosed with scrupulosity while he was on his mission. I talked about things like having to— he ended up talking to his therapist about the fact— his therapist said, well, maybe you should pray only 2 times a day instead of 15 times a day. And he was like, I can't do that. If I do that, I'm going to— you know, he had this terrible experience with a mission president that was telling him that this scandal at the MTC that he wasn't involved in was enough that he had to study all these scriptures about repentance and come and talk to him every week. And if he didn't, you know, he would have to be sent home even though he hadn't done anything. And when he came home for COVID, he was out during the COVID pandemic, and he came home after about 7 months and he was covered from head to toe in cystic acne, just physically manifested itself like that. And he is still, I mean, he's still active in the church. He's a student down at BYU, but he's become a huge advocate for mental health. And the way you're talking here, uh, I mean, I would love to have him have a conversation with you because what you're saying, I think is so important. Because so often we conflate mental health with weakness, particularly in the church. We conflate it and we say, okay, well, if you're feeling this way, there's something wrong with you spiritually. You're just not righteous enough. And that just feeds into the scrupulosity. You know, I've told the story on this podcast too. When I was on my mission, I remember listening to a talk by Gene R. Cook, think I got the middle initial right. It's the same talk where he talks about sitting on an airplane with Mick Jagger, which made me come home from my mission and break all my Rolling Stones records. And when I told that to my son, he said, oh, I didn't know you had scrupulosity too. But in the same talk, he talks about, okay, I want to talk about depression and I want to talk about despair. And I went, oh, okay, this will be helpful to me because I've struggled with depression and anxiety my whole life. And in this talk, he starts talking about despair, and he quotes the Book of Mormon, uh, where it says, "Despair cometh because of iniquity." And I thought, "Well, that doesn't help me much. So my problem, the reason I'm depressed, is because I'm wicked?" And that's essentially been, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that's kind of been a pervasive message, uh, over the history of the Church. And it's only recently, really relatively recently, where the church has sort of started to come around to the idea that mental health is a real thing. Depression is a real thing. If you are depressed and anxious and bipolar and dealing with real genuine mental health conditions, it's not because you are wicked. But the church has never really sort of disavowed This is the way the church deals with all of its mistakes. It just quietly changes and hopes you don't notice that the history is really quite different. And the result is that, uh, the continued influence of these past teachings that we no longer believe continue to survive and even thrive in some quarters. I mean, has that been your experience? Does Does that sound like something that you've encountered as you've dealt with mental health issues in the church?

Absolutely. So Bruce R. McConkie in, uh, Mormon Doctrine, if you looked up psychology in the first edition of it, it said something like Satanism. Uh, it, it was so directly suggesting that it is a satanic thing to get help for your mental illness. And we see this in so many of these different Mormon true crime cases where somebody is having a clear-cut mental health crisis, and instead of somebody going and checking themselves into a mental health clinic, they are locking themselves in their houses and reading more and more scriptures. They are studying more devoutly. Um, they are making sure that they have read every single you know, talk from General Conference, and they're doubling down on their belief system. Uh, sometimes, I mean, we, we do see in some of these where they start to decide that the church has fallen away, um, that the LDS Church has fallen away, and then they, they go and join some radicalized faction of Mormonism, or they start their own, but Yeah, a lot of this could be solved if people were going to mental health clinics instead of to their bishop over and over and over and over again to try and be righteous enough to make the mental illness go away.

Yeah. When I was serving as a bishop, um, in Scotland, uh, within a week, within the, you know, first week, two weeks, there was members coming to me with a whole range of issues and problems, mental, psychological, there was issues relating to historical sexual abuse. And as a young bishop, I was completely out of my depth. I, I just struggled. I felt completely overwhelmed and frustrated that I didn't have the skills, training, the experience to deal with, I would say, most most of the issues, or many of the issues, I just didn't have the mental capacity to understand them, let alone provide some treatment. And I, my default was, through the insufficient training that we got every 3 months with the Stake Presidency on the, you know, every, every 3 months the bishops meet with the Stake Presidency. You go through this, this like a training meeting every 3 months, and these issues would come up and the The best advice I got at that time was encourage people to pray, pray more. There was a reference to what I think Jim Bennett referenced earlier, and I was listening to that. And that's from a scripture, Moroni 10:22 in the Book of Mormon, which says, reads that despair cometh because of iniquity. And was suggested to me as a bishop that perhaps the individual is feeling this way because of their sinning and therefore call them to repentance. I mean, talk about piling on additional issues and pain and anxiety. It's just extraordinary. So the default was for the, you know, back then, and I don't know how much it's changed right now. I still think the bishops, well, I know the bishops even today get very little training in this area and even now are tempted to try to deal with these very serious mental health-related issues without any training, and in fact can cause damage. I was so afraid to, and so concerned about adding to the individual's problems. The best I could do is ask them to pray, fast, read the scriptures, what you were saying, you know, kind of double down, I guess, you know, in terms of reading church material. And, and yes, I regret and I'm ashamed to say that on a couple of occasions felt inspired, putting my fingers about, um, to gently— I was never harsh on this— gently called a couple people to repentance because they— because I felt at that time, through the gift of discernment, if you've heard of that, bishops supposed to have this gift of discernment, and I thought I had the gift of discernment. In hindsight, I didn't. It was A lot of it was guesswork. And so my impressions were that if this person repents, that their mental health issues will go away because it's tied to iniquity. And it struggles so much with that in regards to, you know, church leadership. Jim Bennett's talked about the mission president there and his son going through that. And what's your thoughts and insights, experience in the lack of training that leaders have?, in regards to dealing with mental health, because I, I've shared my experience. What's your thoughts on that, Beth? And also, could you talk to us after that a bit about your, uh, crime, um, Mormon Crime podcast? And could we get into a little bit of the Mormon crime stuff? Because I have some insights into that as a bishop in Stray Prenzy, uh, you know, from that perspective. Jim's probably got his thoughts and insights into that as well. Be good to get his ideas. But if you could talk to us about that, uh, and again, that, that component there, that patriarchal component, how that plays into it as well. And again, I've got a few insights into that as well from my own, my own experience as a, as a bishop and stake presidency. But what's your insights, your concerns, issues in regards to leaders of the church that don't have the experience or the training, vulnerable people, very vulnerable people, open up their entire lives to these leaders. And often the leader can make the problem worse. Can you provide any thoughts inside and any recommendations? Because I believe— I can't speak for Jim Bennett, but I believe leaders of the church at a certain level listen to this podcast. I believe it. I've heard something over the last few days since Jim Bennett and I spoke, where I believe that this podcast and others, not the only one, that are being listened to by leaders. So keep in mind that there could be church leaders listening to this. So what's your thoughts, insights, concerns, um, and any recommendations that you might have for leaders and how they deal with mental health?

Yeah, so I'm going to kind of just lead with one of my biggest concerns when it comes with to this. So if somebody goes to their bishop and talks about a mental health issue that they have, uh, currently they are driving them to mental health professionals, but mental health professionals that are believers in the church. And so we're not going to have somebody who's scrupulous being, uh, guided toward— out of Mormonism if that's somewhere healthier for them to be. I actually went and I saw an LDS, uh, therapist in my process of leaving the church, and she just wanted to tell me to read a bunch of church books to deal with the things that I was, was having to deal with. And so until the church can drive its members somewhere where they're going to actually help them with whatever the issue is, regardless of the outcome for their activity in the church, I don't think that we can have a real, uh, we can't actually really address what's happening here because somebody who is going to lock themselves in their house and starve themselves to death because they, they want to sanctify and purify themselves because they know that that's what fasting does according to scripture, according to prophets, we can't guide that person out of the church where they might be safer. Or we can't guide them to a less active iteration of it. We also have, have people who, like Jim Bennett was saying, your son just felt like he needed to pray more and more and more and more to deal with these things because that's what scripture said. And so, uh, I think that the, the solution of, yeah, we'll send you to mental health professionals who tell you to just be more devout. It's not, it's not a solution. Um, I think you really highlighted, uh, some of the issues, Ian, that we're sending these people in for things that are mental health issues into bishops. And these bishops are not mental health professionals by any stretch of the imagination. They are there to facilitate and help organize and run this community. That's what they're there for. They're there to provide spiritual guidance, and we will label things as spiritual guidance that are actually mental health issues. So many of the mental health issues are actually going to be physical health issues that are causing hormonal or other issues that present as mental health issues. So for example, my son who has an infection in his brain, or I was diagnosed with bipolar 2. But then once I got my hormones treated, turned out I produce zero testosterone. I just do not produce testosterone, DHEA, or cortisol at all. And so now that I take all of those medications, I have zero bipolar symptoms. And so it's, it's this really interesting thing where we're, we're labeling everything as spiritual when people might need a doctor. They might need an actual doctor to do some blood work, and that would magically make all these issues disappear. Um, and so until the church can admit that they are not the answer for every single thing in your life, and they start to talk about this openly, and they start to address mental health from the pulpit at General Conference outright, not, not like the, we're gonna tiptoe around it, kind of thing. We're going to mention, yes, we know some people are depressed until they come out and they say, please go find a doctor and get your blood work done, right? Until we're actually doing these things, they are not doing enough. We also, uh, really need them to admit that they're not the, the end-all be-all, that they are— yes, they have thought of and created so many things for community. They've, they've, uh, created opportunities for fulfillment. They've done a lot of really wonderful things, but this is not their space. Um, and they need to maybe just actually acknowledge that there are some mental illnesses that are going to look like things like demonic possession. And if you are seeing something that looks like demonic possession and you think that your child might have might, might be possessed, uh, do not go looking to the story of Newell K. Whitney, who was the first miracle of the church when he— Joseph Smith went to him right after the church was started, I think the same day, and cast out a demon, right? So somebody who has gone super hard into Mormonism, they've read this story about Newell K. Whitney and how he was jumping up to rafters and he was throwing people off of him. And they're like, oh my goodness, this sounds like what, what my child has going on. My child must have a demon, so I need to try and create the same kind of miracle that Joseph Smith did. So admitting it, admitting the problem is a huge part of this. Um, and then when it comes to Mormon crime, uh, I would say the vast majority of the, the crazy crimes that I've been able to talk about, so Um, I've been doing Mormon true crime on TikTok and YouTube for a couple of years. I'm actually in the process of transitioning it over to Death by Patriarchy so that I can expand outside of just Mormonism and talk about things like eugenics in Nazi Germany. But, um, and I can go ghost hunting and not have to go to a Mormon location, right? So I'm, I'm pivoting right now, but for 2 years I have been talking about Mormonism and crime. And some of the really interesting things that I've realized though is that a lot of people will, uh, immediately be like, oh, we don't teach that in the LDS Church. Well, the LDS Church is not all of Mormonism. There are hundreds of different iterations of Mormonism out there, and even within your congregations, there could be somebody like Ruby Frankie or Chad Daybell or, uh, Bruce— uh, not Bruce, um, Bob Berchtold, who kidnapped J— uh, Jan Broberg.

Well, just quickly, I worked on a Tuakon and worked with Jan Broberg. I consider her a very good friend.

I consider her a very good friend. I love her.

Oh, she's delightful. And it's— oh, Uh, is she still running the bed and breakfast in Cedar City?

I don't, I don't think she's running a bed and breakfast right now. She's taking care of her mom who has Alzheimer's right now.

Oh, okay. She gave me a copy of her book.

Mm-hmm.

Before it was published.

Oh, I love that.

I read through that. Ian, do you know the whole Jan Broberg story? Do not.

No, I'm, uh, I'm learning this.

Basically, she was kidnapped by a member of her ward that was the best friend of her whole family., and he convinced her that she was an alien and that she had to have a child with him in order to repopulate another planet. And, and it was nuts. I mean, there, there's a, there's a Netflix documentary called Abducted in Plain Sight, uh, that I recommend you go watch. And there was also a dramatization of it. What was this series called?

A Friend of the Family on Peacock.

Family. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's terrifying and it's everything, Beth, you're talking about. It's, it's melding all of that Mormon stuff into predatory behavior and it's just absolutely terrifying.

Yeah. And I was able to talk to Jan, um, about the Mormon aspect of it that you don't see in either of those shows. Uh, and some of the things that people don't think about is that She's this 12-year-old who has been told that God lives on a planet near Kolob, that, uh, that, that there are angels and, and there are planets without end, um, that, uh, you know, Jesus was basically a half-human, half-God, or— and we think that God is somebody who lives on another planet, so alien, uh, that was born into this world and he had to save this world. So she then is being told that she is supposed to, give birth to a new messiah for another planet. And so it does fit within this frame of Mormonism that nobody talks about because it's not the mainstream presentation of Mormonism, but the pieces and the roots for the radicalized version of Mormonism that leads to these crimes, it's there. You can find it. You can find the roots of these crimes within mainstream Mormonism. And, uh, she, uh, she had told me that, you know, he would come in, um, B would come in and he would have a newspaper and it would have something about like a UFO sighting. And he would come in and in front of Jan talk to Marianne and say something about how, um, it's— they're coming back for the gathering of Israel. That he started to program her that UFO sightings were confirmation of the gathering of Israel. So there's all of this religious context that, you know, you hear— she, she started to believe that she was half alien, and you're like, okay, sure, Jan. But when you know that she actually believes the church through and through, and there are these little nuggets within Mormonism that she was able to latch on to to make it so she fully believed it, It's not so crazy. Um, but yeah, so, so anyway, I just, I've been able to identify where people either go radicalized or they go extremist or fundamentalist, and sometimes it's on, on the edge of some of, you know, two of those or three of those, right? But they move outside of the normal mainstream version of Mormonism. Without actually leaving Mormonism, right? It's not like they're looking for something outside of Mormonism. They are looking to historic things like Brigham Young, uh, talking about, um, how interracial couples should be killed. And so then we have a serial killer like, uh, Joseph Paul Franklin who went and killed 22 people who either supported or were in interracial relationships. And so it, it happens on a scale that a lot of people, I don't think, actually recognize. But we like to avoid talking about Mormonism's role in a lot of these cases, and we just want to act like they're crazy, even though, as far as they're concerned, they were just following the doctrine.

Well, it's interesting to me when you talk about— so you're pivoting sort of away from Mormon true crime into patriarchy. Yep. Um, I, can you speak to that a little bit in that, I mean, cause it's, it sounds like Mormonism isn't sort of uniquely suited to facilitate this kind of thinking. Uh, but maybe it's, it's part of a broader problem of patriarchy that is sort of uniquely suited to this. Would, would that be an accurate description or is it, is it something else?

Yeah, I would agree that that's an accurate description. Um, the majority of the, the vast, vast, vast majority of the time when a woman is murdered, it's by her partner, her male partner. And so, uh, we see that on a grander scale in society as well. And so, uh, not to get too political or anything, but if we're thinking about, um, what's happening with, uh, my personal take, if we think about what's happening with a lot of the laws that are changing in the United States that are harming marginalized communities, we are not having an outright euthanasia of a, a population. We're not having an outright genocide. But what happens when we start to pull all of the services from disabled people? We will end up having people who end up dying because they didn't have the services or medical needs met, we end up having people who, um, are, uh, going to take their own lives because they are in such despair. We're going to have a lot more accidents. So, uh, within the portion of the autistic population that elopes or runs away from home, um, 17% of them die, uh, and over 90% of those die from drowning. Um, because they're, they're looking for the sensory of water. And so we're going— if these laws are not stopped, we are going to have a genocide, but it's going to be a bureaucratic genocide where people are going to die, but it's not going to be because they were put into clinics like they did in Nazi Germany. It's going to be because of society ripping away the things that make it so that these people are safe. And so we can see this happening in a patriarchal society like the United States. We can see it happening in, in other countries. Uh, but then we also have just in general, uh, the fact that so many men believe that the woman that they're married to, she is his right, and if she's gonna leave him then, uh, it is God-ordained for him within whatever his religion is to take her life. Um, and then we also just have it within medical systems where all of the studies, the vast majority of studies were done on men. And so we're treating women, uh, in their health issues based on data that, uh, is for men. And so we have women who don't know how to recognize that they're having their own they're having a heart attack because all of the symptoms are out— that are out there are based on men. And so just within patriarchal societies, one thing after another after another after another, we have a world where, uh, people are dying and are going to continue to die because they are a woman or they are a marginalized person. And so I want to just be able to talk on it and tell stories about that because I think it's incredibly important, uh, based on the state of the world right now.

What is your podcast called?

Uh, I just changed it over to Death by Patriarchy. You can, you can find my original season of Mormon True Crime on podcasting platforms, but on YouTube and TikTok and whatnot, I've just changed over to Death by Patriarchy. My most popular episode on YouTube is the Elizabeth Smart episode. Uh, and it's really interesting if you watch his interrogation right after he was arrested. Somebody says, uh, one of the detectives says to him something about Mormonism and, um, and Brian David Mitchell says, uh, oh, the detective says, um, but this isn't Mormonism. And Brian David Mitchell says, if you think that, then you don't know Mormonism. And the reality is, is that Will a mentally healthy person go to Mormonism and become a prolific criminal? Probably not. But will a person who is delusional and looking for, uh, explanations or reasons for what they're experiencing in their head that's different than what everybody else is experiencing go to Mormonism and find justification for horrific crimes? They sure can. They sure can.

They can, with all the history and the quotes. And, you know, we were saying on the last podcast, if you go back in the history of the church, the previous leaders were unafraid to make very bold black and white statements. You know, if you marry someone who's black, then you should die on the spot kind of thing, right? It was just one-liners that were absolutely, you know, this or that, and just awful, awful things that were written and said by, you know, past church leaders. I found this This is one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had because I'm learning so much from this. And as I'm listening, Beth, to you and to Jim, I am struck with the notion that my life, I joined the church at 16 years old and led a fairly, what I think or thought until this conversation, actually fairly regular life in the church. Nothing too extreme like what you're describing. But as I look back at my past, there are actually experiences which are quite extreme in the context of this conversation. And what, let me give you a quick example, which is, it was extreme then, it is extreme now. So when I was serving a mission, so Jim Bennett and I served our missions together in Scotland in the '80s. I probably wasn't worthy enough to be Jim's companion, but served in the same district, in the same zone in Scotland. I came out just before Jim, and I served in all around Scotland. And one area I served in over that 2 years, I had several experiences where I, at the time, understood that I was casting out evil spirits.

I had one too.

You had one too. I had a few. Not many, but a few. And there's one in particular that had a profound impact on me. And by the way, when I received the priesthood, when I was younger, I was bestowed with the gift of discernment. It's referenced in my patriarchal blessing. And I was bestowed with the gift of healing. I had these extraordinary powers that I believed I had because I was Really committed, really committed and devoted to the church. Not to the extremities that you described really, but very committed. So I thought I had these extraordinary gifts. And also the church says that when you have a spiritual experience, the spirit leaves a gift. There's a scripture on that, by the way. So when you have a spiritual experience, you bestow the spiritual gift. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants. But I had these special gifts and gift of healing. And so I was with a missionary that Jim Bennett and I know very well. Ellie Jacobs, and we were serving in Fife in Dalgety, Dalgety base, big estate, big housing estate in Scotland. I'd been out a few months. Jake has been out longer than I had. We knocked on this door and this lady, old lady, I'm middle-aged. She was older back then. She was middle-aged. I'm middle-aged now.

Oh, younger than you are now. We're old.

I'm probably older than what she is right now. And so, um, knock on the door. She's very polite, came in. We started teaching, uh, first discussion and about halfway through her voice changed and, uh, Ella Jacobs and I looked at each other. I, I by the way have 2 pages dedicated in my journal, which is for somebody that hated writing the journal, that, that was pretty huge for me. And, uh, I went into great detail in writing this in my journal cuz it had such a, uh, profound impact on me at that time. Anyway, this lady, her voice changed during the conversation. In the first discussion, at the point where we were talking about Joseph Smith and the First Vision. That's the first discussion, Jim Bennett, I think. And so as she did that, her voice changed, and then she said she's not feeling well. And then she said there's a voice in her head telling her that she needs to, she has an unfamiliar spirit in her body, and that would we bestow a blessing upon her to remove the spirit. I'd only been out 3 months. Jake has been out maybe 6 months. And we looked at each other and I'm like, what the heck is going on? Anyway, we found ourselves, uh, uh, we, we got a, um, we responded, we said yes. Um, and we got a chair from the kitchen, brought it into the living room. She sat on the chair in the living room and we laid our hands on her head. And at this time also her voice, it was like two-tone voice. It was scary actually. She had two different voices and we laid our hands upon her head. I think Jacob's was, I was terrified. I think Jacob's was the Malpys and we, um, cast out this evil spirit that was in her. And what was shocking is that her body started reeling in a circular motion around the chair, she was physically moving and her hands were on top of her head. And then at one point, halfway through the blessing, one of her hands came and tried to remove my hands, because Jacob's is below my hands, my hands are on top of Jacob's. She then tried to remove my hands off her head. That was one of her hands. And the other hand on the other side came and pressed it down. So it was like there was a battle going on inside of her. A body, a mind, uh, where one part of her was trying to, um, keep her hands on her head and continue with the blessing. And another side to her with the other hand, right hand, was trying to physically remove, physically push our hands off, off her head. And all that was happening while she was rotating somewhat on the chair. It was a frightening experience. Jacob was terrified. I certainly was. He gave this amazing blessing and actually cast out this evil spirit. And as soon as she did, she seemed to change and calm down. She sat, we put the chair back in the kitchen. She sat down, she went back to normal, you know, like it was, and I'm like freaking out. And then, uh, she completely random, and I'm not making this up. This is, this is just what happened. Um, Jacobs will hear this. He'll, he'll remember this cuz I think he hears the podcast. A hand went down the side of the couch, you know, uh, uh, actually outside of the, we call 'em the settee, the couch. And, uh, appeared a knife. She had a knife in her hand and she threw the knife across the floor level at the carpet. Not. Not at leg height or, or body height, but like skimmed it across the floor randomly, completely unexpected. The whole thing was the weirdest experience I've ever had. The details are in my journal. I need to go back and read it. It was, um, and then she seemed to, at the end, you know, seemed to not talk about what she did with the knife. Just literally threw the knife across the floor. It missed Ella Jacobs' leg. I mean, it would've It was a kitchen knife. He just missed his leg. At that point, we're like, we need to, we need to go. We need to get out here. And so that, I had a few experiences like that on the mission, which are very unusual, very extraordinary. As I listen to you, um, and I look back at that now and thought that we had cast an evil spirit out. We were told by the mission president, not, you did the right thing, you cast the evil spirit out, but don't go back. As I look back at that now, I believe that this lady was, um, had mental health issues. I don't believe she was possessed with a spirit. I don't believe that. At the time, I, I felt my power, my amazing patriarchal power, uh, power and, and the gift of healing had hopefully healed this lady. And I, I don't believe that now. I think this lady had mental health issues. I think she needed to go to a professional doctor. Do some blood work. This was 30 years ago. Who knows what she was going through physically, mentally? We know so much more now than we did back then. We, we knew very little back then, I think. And so I look back at that now, and this conversation's really given me a different perspective. Uh, not that I didn't think it was mental health before, but certainly put it into perspective. Would you say I'm right then now to think that that experience, as extreme as it was for me certainly, and frightening, does that sound like a mental health-related issue to you?

Yeah, yeah. So, uh, when my child will have, uh, psychosis, 100% is, is behavior that I would think was demonic if I was facing it, and I believed that. So, but yeah, that's 100% the kind of behavior that I've experienced.

That's extraordinary. And so there are treatments, you're saying there are treatments for that, and the treatment is not in the church necessarily. You said the church is not, you know, provides the complete solution. It doesn't, I accept that. I think you're 100% right. I think Jim Bennett would agree with that as well. He can speak for himself that the church doesn't have all the answers. And so the advice is, even if it means that the independent professional counseling is maybe even to give the church a break, let's say the counselor is from the, from the non-Mormon counselor, hopefully to say, look, just take a break from the Mormon Church. All this intensity is making the problem worse. Take a break. The church doesn't want to hear that, clearly, but the right thing to do is to take a break from the church, have a breather, go get some counseling, go get some therapy, um, just don't focus on that, focus on your mental health, and that may or may not mean them coming back to the church, which the church doesn't want. But you're right, I agree, I think the church is absolutely not in that space and not ready to acknowledge its role in mental health and even given enough sufficient advice from the pulpit to say, look, you know, go get some professional help, go use independent sources for their advice. And even if it means taking a break from us, it's like at work, a professional company will say, look, if you're struggling with mental health or physical health, don't come to work. Go get the treatment. That's what a professional company would do. Go get the treatment. Go take the break. Your job's still here when you get back. We'll support you. We'll support you. Family will support you. Go do what you need to do. We're here. Go take the space. I can't, Jim, I can't see the church ever doing that.

I think that would be difficult. And as I listen to you tell this story, Ian, I'm reminded of my story, which isn't nearly as dramatic, But when I cast out a devil, which was somebody who essentially had had a head injury, a traumatic brain injury, as I look back on it, I felt like a big deal. I think that's part of the problem is that, I mean, Ian, you tell that story and you were frightened, but it's also, I mean, missions are just so much rejection and an awful lot of boredom. And if you can break that up with a good demonic possession, that kind of makes your day. That's kind of exciting. I mean, yes, it's terrifying, but it's, oh, look, I was snatched from the jaws of evil by the power of my priesthood. I mean, there are, I think, perverse incentives to sort of seek out those kinds of moments and relish them. Rather than come to the relatively boring conclusion of, hey, you need some medical help. You don't need the mighty Elder Bennett or the mighty Elder Wilkes to summon the powers of heaven. You need to go to the doctor and get some blood work and get some medication, get some counseling. And, and I think there's kind of Would you agree, Beth, that there's kind of a perverse incentive to perpetuate kind of the false narratives within the church about their ability to solve mental health issues?

Absolutely. So one of the things that I think of is Tony Robbins talks about like the 6 human needs, and one of those needs is the need for significance. And so if I'm having mental health issues and it's just mental health issues, there is no need being fulfilled. There is something wrong with me. But if I'm having a mental health issue and, uh, I am actually being possessed by a demon because I am such a good, righteous, holy person that Satan himself is coming to attack me, my need for significance is, is fulfilled, right? And if a missionary is able to come and cast that demon out and make it so that I Uh, you know, no longer have this demon possessing me, that missionary has their need for significance fulfilled.

Right.

And so this narrative that it's something spiritual because we're all so sacred and holy and special fulfills something in us, but it's not actually the solution or reality that we need.

Beth, this is one of the most extraordinary conversations I've ever had. I mean that. It's been more than I expected. I'm so sorry for all the pain and hurt that you've gone through yourself. I'm pleased to hear that you've received the treatment and support that you needed, you know, physically, you know, mentally, which is great. I'm sorry about the, you know, the hurt and pain that your children are going through, and I hope that there is support for them and that they will recover fully. You're a wonderful person and I could talk for hours with someone like you. And I think, I know for a fact that when people listen to this, they will learn so much from this. I certainly have. I think you're a wonderful person. I would love to have you back if you're ever interested in coming back. I'm sure Jenny feels the same way. These, there's so much more behind. We've kind of skimmed it. I think there's been points we've discussed where we've just kind of touched upon these points and there's so much more value in even exploring those topics. But I want to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you for coming onto our podcast and sharing your insights. Beth, do you have any other thoughts or comments that you'd like to share? And then following that, Jim, do you have any of your final thoughts and comments that you want to share before we close out?

Well, I'll let Beth have the final word and just quickly thank you, Beth, for for everything you've brought here. I have learned an awful lot. I think a lot of people listening to this will learn an awful lot, and I think you may have saved some lives today. I mean, I think that there's, there's so such a huge need for this kind of information, and I am so grateful to you for doing everything you can in your power to fulfill that need and to fill that gap between ignorance and, and the kind of knowledge that is necessary to save lives. So I so appreciate this conversation and thank you very much and want to hear your summation and your last word here.

Yeah, thank you guys for having me. It's been a lot of fun. So one of the things that I just want people to walk away from this with, a lot of times people hear me talk about Mormon crime or Mormon true crime and Immediately your defenses go up. My agenda is not to make Mormonism go away. It's not even to make Mormonism look bad. It is to make it so that people are aware and paying attention to the types of things that are resulting in people losing their lives. And so that you guys within your own community can go advocate for changes in policies, changes in, uh, culture and attitudes within Mormonism. That cause these crimes. And, uh, that begins with admitting that yes, somebody can have mental illness, but it doesn't mean that Mormonism did not prop them up in moving forward a crime because they felt validated by Mormonism in their mental illness.

Beth, thank you for those final words. Again, thank you for taking time to come on the podcast. We appreciate you so much. Jim, thank you for your valuable, equal value contributions as well. To you too, Beth and Jim, thank you again. And to all the listeners, thank you for joining us on this week's podcast. It's an extraordinary conversation and I'm confident that we will get a great deal from this. So on behalf of Jim and I, we thank you and we're signing out and we'll look to meet with you next week. Thank you, Beth. Thank you, Jim Bennett.

Thank you, Beth. Thank you, Ian.

Thank you, guys.