A Conversation with Bishop Graeme Stocks

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the podcast that takes a pragmatic look at the Mormon Church and faith. We consider the strengths and weaknesses of the church. We acknowledge all the good that the church does and the extraordinary sacrifice and service that all the members devote to the church. And we are always excited, Jim and I, to do these podcasts. And of course, I'm here with Jim. I would describe him as indescribable, the Mr. Jim Bennett.

Thank you. I think indescribable is probably the kindest thing anybody has ever said about me.

Right. We, we like to come up with these different words, Graeme, for each of the podcasts. Jim Bennett is indescribable today. Today is indescribable. And just to let our listeners know that we have a very special guest on our podcast today, a very special guest indeed, and special because he— and I'm very proud of him— he's my brother-in-law, Graham Stocks, and he's joined us all the way over from Yorkshire. Which is described as God's country. It's the—

of course it is—

the truest county on the face of the earth. And so, Graham, welcome to our podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure. Thank you.

Hey, well, we'll get into this, and I just want to take a couple of minutes, short minutes of your time to share with our listeners a little bit about Graham from my experience. I've known Graham for a very long time, I think. Is it 30 years, Graeme? Yeah, it got to be at least, yeah, 35 years since you were a young whippersnapper. That's a word our listeners will have to look up, I'm sure. But I want to say 4 things about Graeme in terms of introduction. One, he is, uh, he's one of the kindest, most generous individuals I've ever met. There's nothing that he won't do for you. Friend, stranger, he is driven by the desire to help. And that I've seen come through in his personal life, his calling, and his work. He's an extraordinary individual. Secondly, I've observed him close and at a distance of the extraordinary husband and father he is. And I've tried to emulate actually a lot of the qualities that Graham brings to those relationships. Is such a wonderful husband and a wonderful father, and he's got such great relationships and wonderful dynamics in his family. The third thing I want to say is that he is currently serving as a bishop in the Dewsbury Ward. Well, were you born in Dewsbury, Graham?

Yeah, I've been in Dewsbury. Well, for a period of time, the wards split and then they came back together. So I was, uh, I moved out for a period of time, but only because I was the wrong side of the line.

Right, right. And you, was it Staincliffe Hospital that you were born at?

I was. I think you were the same way.

I was the same, yeah. So I was born at Staincliffe, uh, and I was out— people don't know I was born in Dewsbury. I was. And I was also baptized, uh, in Dewsbury as well. So it has a special— yeah, special place.

So you still live 100 yards from the hospital now? No, we really do. Very far.

You do? Yeah. You're between Dewsbury, you know, Dewsbury Road and Hepburn Wyke, which is where I used to live actually when I was, you know, when I was really young. And so Graham is a third serving bishop in the Dewsbury Ward and he is doing an amazing job. And the fourth thing I would say about Graham is that he is a very smart business guy. He's very progressive in his business. And he has brought a lot of employment opportunities to a lot of people, and he helps people through employment and helps them secure, you know, he has businesses that he employs people through, and he's a very fair individual to work for. So he brings all those qualities into his professional life as well. I, I, I, I hope, I think, I, I know that was accurate. I hope I didn't embarrass you too much there, Graham, but you know, I'll look in a little, so that's okay. Thank you. And so it's just a real honor to have you on here with us talking today and sharing your experiences. Any opening comments, remarks from you, Jim, before we get into this?

No, I was just asking. So I have a sister that lives in the UK now. She's right outside of London. And I said, when Ian had suggested you, Graham, as a guest, I said, I wonder if he's my sister's bishop. But apparently Yorkshire and London are—

It's a small distance.

Yeah. It's a bit— she lives in a town called Godalming.

Oh yeah, I know that. Sorry.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, there's a film called The Holiday where—

There is.

Yeah. Two people, somebody goes to LA and they swap houses, somebody in Godalming.

So that's my favorite Christmas movie.

Yeah, it's a very cute Christmas movie. So a lot of fun. No, I'm just, I'm just very thrilled to have you here because I, I'm very interested. I get sort of reports from my sister as to how the church is doing in England and in the UK. And I would very much like to get a firsthand report from an active bishop. As to how you see the church doing, uh, at the moment and, and what you think the challenges are.

Okay, for sure. Do you want me to kick that off, or is that the opening question?

We, we— I'd love to get into that. So why don't we, to give our listeners a bit of context, I think that's a really important point that Jim raised, just, uh, take us through a little bit of a journey, Graham, you know, growing up in the church, bit about your background, youth, uh, YSA, etc., you know, going, you know, you just give us a little bit of background. But I think that is a really fun point that Jim Bennett would love to get into, for sure.

Yeah, for sure. So, um, a little bit about us. So we joined the church in 1977. I think that's the year that Elvis died. Am I right in saying that?

That's exactly right.

Yeah, it was also the Silver Jubilee of the Queen, and I remember the, the banners on the streets and Wonderful time. So I was 5 years old when, uh, Mum and Dad joined the church, and Mum had grown up in, um, in another church and realized there was a part missing. And when the missionaries knocked on the door, they kind of put the final piece in the jigsaw for her. So she was very quick to join the church. My, my dad was an atheist, um, and I had an older sister, Lisa, which is, uh, she's your age. Um, just a little bit older than me. And she, um, and so she was 8, she was able to be baptized straight away. And so the whole family joined. And very shortly after that, my, um, my dad actually became the bishop. So he went from being an atheist to a bishop in 4 years. Um, probably quite quick. Um, but, but he was a, he was a fantastic bishop. Um, in my younger years I think I maybe was 11, 12 years old, we adopted 3 sisters that were from a troubled family, and they came and joined our family. And then, um, it's like a tragic thing, is shortly after that my dad left the church. He had an affair and, um, and left the church. And so it was a tough time for us. Um, we've got these 3 young siblings that are struggling because they've been taken from another family and brought to ours. And so I think a lot of my teenage years were spent fending for myself a little bit and establishing my own roots. Um, I was very fortunate that— and Ian will testify to this— that Huddersfield stake is probably the strongest stake in, in England, I would say. I think possibly because geographically it's the smallest. It's 15 miles from one end to the other. I suppose in Salt Lake you might have 10, 10 stakes in that space, but, but that is the smallest one in the UK, and we're very fortunate. So it was easy to attend things, it was easy to build friendships. And so I have some very strong friends that helped me through my teenage years, and I appreciate each and every one of them. And, uh, out of the 4 of us, there's 3 of us still active in the church. One has left, but I still know he pines to, uh, to know what's going on and be involved a little. Which is, is nice, and it's nice to fill them in. Um, at the age of admission, I left the church. I didn't— I left the church for 4 years, um, trying to find a path that suited me. Um, I set up my business, I bought a home, lots of things in, uh, between 19 and 20 years old. And, um, dated heavily outside of church. I mean, the same person for 4 years. And then there came a point when we discussed a future, and I, I felt that— I felt that I had a burning desire to be sealed in the temple. Even though I'd left the church, I knew that's how I felt, and I'd always felt that way. And it wasn't that I was kind of brainwashed to think that way, it was because I wanted that. I knew what it meant, and it was very passionate in me. And so I, I returned to church. I came back to church 23 years old, so I didn't do much of YSA, and to be honest with you, I, um, I came back and, and ironically, the very first— we have dances in Huddersfield Stake, I assume we have them everywhere else around the world in church— but, um, there was a dance in my home ward, and I was driving past the building at half past 10 at night thinking, oh, I'll bob in and see if I can see any friends. And the first person I met in the car park is Abigail, which is my wife. And I'd never spoken to her because when I left church, she might have been 15 years old. She was very young. She's 4 years younger than me. And, um, and we went on a date the next week, and 2 years later got married. And here we are with 6 kids and really just enjoying living gospel life. Um, my dad never came back to church. He doesn't live with the family anymore. He lives in, in France. Um, we were able to, through, through the finances we've raised through business over the years, able to buy mom a home, and she now lives opposite us and we take care of her. And, you know, the family's all quite strong. But, um, we've not been without our trials. It's been, been a tough, tough journey for sure. Um, but very happy with where we are now. If that answers any questions, it does.

It provides some, some really important context. We might jump back in and in and out of that a little bit later in the podcast. And, and, um, and so, and you were called, Graham, you were called as a bishop, uh, in, in, in the Dewsbury Ward in the Huddersfield Stake. When— could you just describe that experience of being called and how you felt and, uh, and when that was?

Yes, yeah, for sure. So, um, just another bit of context, Dewsbury split as a ward in 1983 and there was Dewsbury and Spen Valley. And so when I got married, I lived in the Spen Valley side. Mum and Dad were still on the Dewsbury side. And, um, and then in 2010, Spen Valley was closed. It's an area where a lot of young marrieds come, but when they start to have the families, they tend to move out of the area. So the ward just, uh, was depleted. Um, so we came back together as Dewsbury Ward in 2010. And I was asked to serve on the bishopric straight away. So I've been on the bishopric since 2010 in one form or another. Um, I absolutely loved serving. I served with a really, really wonderful bishop. And interestingly, the bishop I served with, he was almost semi-active before he became a bishop. You know, it was the kind that would stand in the corridor the whole time and wouldn't really seem to be involved. But actually, as a bishop, I saw the mantle on him and he was just a different person. It was Alan Simpson. Alan Simpson.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, great guy.

What an amazing bishop. He taught me so much, um, and I think the things that were in me, he brought out of me. He was a very good man manager of people, and so I, I really enjoyed serving with him. Um, I was asked to serve as bishop 2 years ago last week, so I've just done 2 years, and it was at the end of COVID And, uh, I'm so glad I wasn't a bishop through COVID. My goodness, that must have been so difficult. The previous bishop, he was, he was clear he was tired. He'd had a hard couple of years. And, um, I was tasked with bringing people back to church and reuniting the ward. And so, um, I've enjoyed that because that's something I, I get a little kick out of as well. And I don't think you have to um, with the all-seeing eye on spiritual things to make people feel loved and wanted. So that was my forte, which I really, really enjoyed. And so we, we came back just over 2 years ago, and we, we had an average attendance of 62. That was our average attendance. Our attendance last week in Sacramento was 135. And we still use the online— we had 79 views of the service as well. So I would say that's growth. I would say that it's healthy growth because it's, it's people who want to be there and they're enjoying being at church again. So yeah, wonderful.

That's impressive because I mean, I keep hearing dire reports that the UK, that growth is— I mean, it's, it's all but collapsed and, and the church is shrinking and all of that sort of thing. That, that isn't your experience?

Um, no, I mean, I, I, I'll be honest with you, there are people that frustrate me because you know that they want to be there, but they're not, they've not jumped in with two feet. So quite often they've, they've a foot in two camps and, um, I see their goodness and I just want to say, come on, let's, let's, let's solve this because it's, it's, it's the tiny little details that'll make the difference for you. Um, I think the thing that I've been— I found interesting at the very start particularly was that I decided when I got called that I would deal with the tough stuff first, because if I dealt with the things that maybe somebody who didn't perhaps thought— I think I was the right person to be bishop, or whatever it might be— I tackle those in at the very start, and then what I would do is I would simply go around and invite and there was one guy and he'd been less active from church for 35 years. And, um, lots of people see him as a regular person that they see in the local town. And I just said to him, uh, hey, how are you doing? And he said, yeah, I'm good, thank you. I said, would you come to church on Sunday? It was as simple as that. And he said, okay then. And he came. It wasn't like it was a difficult thing. Don't get me wrong, it is, it is difficult in, in a lot of areas, I'm sure. And you hear of a lot of wards that are struggling or closing. We were a ward that closed. We've just had another ward— your old ward, Ian— Wakefield and Harbury have just gone back together. Um, but we're a really strong stake and we have a lot of good things happening at the minute. And so I do put some of it down to the way that people are managed, um, and, and how they are made to feel. And so it does make a difference for sure. And I'd like to think that's possibly why I maybe got called, because that's Maybe my strength. I'm sure there's other reasons maybe I got called, but that's one of them, eh?

Well, I mean, no, that's very encouraging. You know, our bishop here in Sandy, Utah was called during the pandemic. You know, when church was all shut down and nobody was coming, we all of a sudden had a new bishop. That would've been really tough. So he's been here for about 4 years now. But you sound like the kind of bishop that I think everybody would want to have. Ian, is that how you would describe him?

Yeah, I think I'm gonna pay Graham probably the biggest compliment I could ever pay anyone right now. Just listen to that comment from you, Jim. You both know I don't go to church, Okay, and you have— you both know, perhaps Jim knows more than you, Graham, in terms of the detail. You and I have had a conversation about this, Graham, when I was over there last summer. But, but, but, and you were always kind and respectful. And Jim, I felt complete respect and love from Graham and compassion, because that's who he is as a person, as a leader. But here's what I'm going to say, and I mean this: if I was ever going to go back to church, I would want Graham to be my bishop, or Brett, who's my other brother-in-law, who's also a wonderful bishop. So if Graham was my bishop, because I trust him and love him, and I know he would care for me and listen and maybe not agree with everything that I say, but to bring out the best in me. If anyone's going to either get me back or at least help me transition back into the church, then it will be someone— it will not someone like— it will be Graham. Um, you know, if I was gonna do that, I would, I would, you know, if I was in the UK, I'd, I'd live in the Jewish ward specifically so we could be my bishop. I, I mean that, and I say that with, with complete, uh, confidence because, uh, I wouldn't be worried about, you know, anything that I may have believed historically, anything I've done wrong, any mistakes, that he would care for me and he would reach out to me and he would, um, love me and be kind towards me. And that speaks volumes about who he is. And I do watch the, you know, the Joseph Ward sacrament meeting online.

I track you.

You track me. You track me. So actually, does that mean I go back to church? I guess I'm active.

Well, I did ask the president if I could start counting some of the numbers, and he said absolutely.

New old week.

So this is, this is huge.

Change the name of the podcast. It's inside. I know.

Now I'm active. I'm a member of the Jewish reward, everybody. This is great. I'm, I'm an active member of the church.

I don't count them all. I think it's a bit naughty, but I do count some of them for sure.

Oh wow. I'm going to, uh, I'm going to go every week. I've not been for a few weeks, so I need to go back. Um, but, uh, yeah.

And so I think, uh, the, the ward is what it is, Graham.

I, and I feel strongly about this with leadership, is a lot of it is down to you. You know, it's that leadership roulette that we talk about. You can have a great bishop and there's growth and there's close-knit relationships. You know, the scriptures talk about, you know, the hearts— what's that scripture, Jim? Help me here— that the hearts are knit together with closeness. I've completely destroyed that quote, but, uh, well, I thought you were going to be the hearts of the children are turned to the fathers, but no, no, this is another scripture that talks about Certainly where, and Jim, sorry, Graham talks about the unique qualities of the Huddersfield stake, and it just definitely has those where it's strong because of its close relationships, very tight, close relationships. Um, the hearts are knit together with, with love. I think that's the scripture, right? And we see that in the stake, in the Huddersfield stake. We see that elsewhere, but certainly when you've got a leader like Graham, uh, Bishop Stocks here, who loves people and wants to help people and and is kind and thoughtful and trying to figure things out, trying to fix things, then people rally behind that. And if that's happening across the Holyfield Estate, then that's great. And that's where you're seeing the growth, because people want to go to church because they feel better when they get there. My experience was different. I wasn't having a good experience when I was going to church. It was quite a negative experience for me. But if I went to Jewsbury Ward, the experience will be completely different because of Graham and the leadership and the love that you feel in the world. And it comes down to— I think it comes down to that. And you've got that in abundance, I think, across the Huddersfield stake because of, of course, of the—

yeah, we've got a phenomenal stake president. I don't know if you know much about our stake president, but he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Probably a very good one for your podcast, although he wouldn't talk about himself because he's really humble. But he, uh, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer um, probably a month before I was called as the state president. He's a phenomenal state president. He was, he was due to live for a year and he's 3 years now, and he's struggling. He's finding things hard physically. What's his name?

Great president. What's his name?

President Bridgestock.

Bridgestock.

Yeah, we just had Elder Gong with us last week. He came to visit and we had a wonderful experience, but, um, I asked my youth, because after, after we'd done the, the, the conference, I decided on the Sunday that we'd sit down with our youth and ask them what they got from the conference. And, um, every one of them talked about President Bridgestock. Not one of them talked about Elder Gong, which I thought was testament to the position he's in. And I think that when you talk about leadership, I can't sit here and take responsibility for how good the ward feels because the leaders within the ward do that. And so my responsibility is to make sure I've got the right people in the right positions, or I put the trust in people that maybe didn't feel that they were worthy of a call. I have a new member coming onto my bishopric, and I can't tell you who it is because you'll know him, Ian, but, um, he is, um, whisper it to me, just, I'll just, I'll get into trouble, you know that. But, um, He's going to be phenomenal. And it'll be a real surprise. And it'll happen next week. And I can't begin to tell you how excited I am, because when I came in as a bishop, he was very semi-active to, to, at the very least, I would see him probably once every 4 weeks and his family. And now all of his family are active. He's just going through the temple next week. His son is just going through the temple for the first time. His other son has just been called to serve alongside me in the bishopric as, um, as a ward clerk. And, um, there's just wonderful things happening, and it's just— it's so exciting to see those changes. And I know that the ward will feel more united by his call, and that's not disrespect on the person who's already serving, but he served in, in that capacity for a number of years, and actually it's good to freshen up and it's good to give people a chance and good for people to express their qualities. So this guy is going to be brilliant. I'm really excited.

All right. Well, we'll have to announce here who it is when it's finally— For sure. Oh, go ahead, go ahead, Jim.

Go ahead, Jim. You go first.

Go ahead.

No.

Well, I— so, I mean, in terms of what you've been able to do in building a ward that loves and supports each other, One of the biggest challenges that you face as a bishop, what are the things that, that keep you up at night?

The things that keep me up at night, you do— I don't know if you mentioned, but I have 6 children, so that probably is my first thing.

Oh, sure, sure. So I have 5, but they're all out of the house now.

So yeah, so 2 of mine out of the house. I've got one moving out this week, and I'm a bit heartbroken. I'm going to miss him, but The good thing is that he and his other brother are both getting ordained Melchizedek Priesthood tomorrow, so that's quite exciting just before he leaves. And I know that's an extra level of, of support for him. Um, biggest challenges— people's self-worth, probably. Um, I would say that, I would say that people, um People's mental health is a challenge. I think, I think that there are some people really struggling in the marriages. Um, I'm not a marriage guidance counselor for sure, but the church has got a wonderful network now, so it's, you know, I can talk to a level and then I'm happy to put that through to the right people who can do what I can't do. I know my limits. Um, I just think, I think, I think that people don't believe that they've got good things in their life, and they don't recognize things for what they are, as they really are. They see, um, they see the negatives. I was just saying to Ian, I had a funeral yesterday of a person who committed suicide. He's left behind him an 18-year-old daughter, and she has nobody else. And so it's been a very, very, very tough time. And I've seen this young man's trials for the whole of the time I've served on a bishopric. And I honestly feel he'll be at peace right now. And it's been 14 years of watching him with no peace. So I don't really have anybody else in that circumstance that I'm aware of. But there are people with challenges. I think pornography is a massive challenge, for sure. And I don't think it's limited to men. I don't think it's limited to the youth. I think actually it's probably less limited to the youth than it is just to the adults. Um, those are challenges, the big challenges for people. But I think that, um, I decided to work in a certain way with people, and I don't know if other bishops have ever done anything like this, and maybe I'm, uh, maybe I'm not doing it the right way. I don't know, no one's told me off yet anyway. But, um, if, if an investigator is investigating church and they smoke or they drink we ask them to refrain for 7 days, and then they're worthy to be baptized. And so I work with those that are struggling on a 7-day cycle, and we sit down every 7 days and we discuss where they're at. And if they're good, then they can pass the sacrament, or they can serve. And if they're not, then we have a week off, and then the following Sunday we sit and we talk again— where you are, how's things going. And, um, I'm finding that everyone that I've worked with in that way has progressed. There's not a single soul that hasn't progressed. There's nobody gone backwards. Everybody's gone forwards. I've had a, a guy that's been alcoholic all his life, kind of since he was 14 years old. He's in his mid-50s now. And, um, his family all came to church. They all joined the church. None of them had the same issues as him. They all went through the temple last year. And it was his daughter's wedding, that I wouldn't give him a temple recommend even though we're friends, because I knew that he wasn't worthy. And, uh, but I did say to him, I will work with you personally week by week until that point. He goes through on the 6th of April for his endowment. And I just think that that is, um, probably one of my greatest achievements as a bishop, and it'll probably be one of the greatest achievements in his life, getting to that point. But again, it's just done little by little. You know, how do you eat an elephant? It's a bite at a time. Simple, simple process. Um, we're not trying to revolutionize things, we're not trying to change the world, um, in, in a rush. We're the law of the farm, we work by the law of the farm, and that's how we, we, we, uh, we do our missionary work that way, we do everything that way. It's, uh, when we were asked to do a mission plan for the start of the year, we didn't do a mission plan, we did the law of the farm.. And we introduced that in the ward and in the primary and in the youth, and we all follow the same pattern. So we're unified in the things that we do going forwards. That's, that's where we're at. It's good.

The law of the farm, meaning you, you reap what you sow, that you plant and you wait.

You plant, you wait, you, you, you tend the ground. It's, it's the little increments of change within the person, isn't it? There was, um, I can't remember the name of the person, but it talks about the the unit of the day. Um, I can't remember his name, but, but we, we work on the, the unit of the day. And what do you do in the day that will help you long term? Because if you, if you, if, if I was to work with somebody that, that was preparing for the, the temple and we rushed it through and then that they fell again after, I feel quite guilty as a bishop to not giving them the right kind of, um, support network and the right tools to survive it. And so I, I feel I'd rather not rush. I'd rather do things properly, but I'd rather have them on a really solid foundation, um, and know that their, their faith is in Christ. It's not about just getting to the temple because the family are going through. It's about you going because you want to go. You know why you're going. You know who you love. You know who you are. You're very clear that you're a son or a daughter of God. They're very important things. So that's, that's where we work.

Well, that's just— that just sounds lovely. Again, this is, this is the kind of bishop I think everybody would want to have. So, I mean, so, so it sounds to me also that your, your faith is directly engaged with the people in your ward and with the people on the ground. I mean, do any of these sort of larger, more controversial macro issues in the church— I mean, you see—

I mean, it affects me.

Well, it makes— well, you know, I live, I live now in Sandy, Utah. I grew up outside of sort of the Mormon corridor, but now I'm firmly entrenched in Utah. And so things, you know, Ian and I just talked about the big controversy at BYU right now. That Elder Holland's musket fire talk is going to be included in a, in a class. And I sometimes get the sense, particularly when I talk to my sister who's in England, that those are the kinds of things that we notice when we're closer to Salt Lake City, and that as you get further and further away from that Mormon corridor, that doesn't bother people nearly as much. Is that your experience?

Yeah, well, it's my personal experience. I, I mean, I was very clear when, you know, I was speaking when you came over last time. I don't embroil myself in those things. My faith is in Jesus Christ. I'm not— my faith isn't in man who makes mistakes. And so my faith is in Jesus Christ. And so if there is anything that I need to worry about, it's how he lived his life. I'm not bothered about how other people live their life. That's their journey and it's their eternal progression. It's not my eternal progression. Um, I do worry about the influence it has on people that do get caught up in it. I have a brother in my ward who is so, um, so upset about the fact that the Prophet had his injection for COVID on the um, on the church network, very upset about it. So much so that he's asked me to get a personal apology from him. Well, clearly that's never going to happen, you know that. But I had a 5.5-hour meeting with him one night that finished almost at midnight, and that's what we discussed. Um, I, I can't afford to let those kind of things conquer me. Because then they don't affect my eternal progression. What affects my eternal progression is my relationship with my Savior. It's me doing the small acts of service daily. It's the way that I conduct myself. And people will make mistakes, that's without a doubt, otherwise there'd be absolutely zero purpose to being here. I don't— I don't— in, in answer to your question as well, I don't think we hear some of the things over here. Yeah, of course we know about the finances, we, you know, we know about things like that. Um, again, it can completely consume you, it can be something that you can get past. For me, it's not even on my radar. I understand I have to talk about it because people will come and want to discuss it in my office from time to time, but, um, it's not on my radar in terms of me feeling that it would affect my testimony. It's not on my radar in, in a way of me thinking, oh, I won't go to church this week. It's not in my radar where I would feel possibly I don't want to go to the temple because the church can't be true. I don't feel those things. I've never felt those things. I came back to church when I was 23, and I knew exactly why I'd come back. It was never in doubt for me. And so, um, I have a very simple faith. I think that we're taught to have faith like children, so my faith is very simple. And it's based on the Savior and it's based on love. And outside of that, it's not affecting me.

I can't tell you just how beautiful that is and how grateful I am to meet members of the Church that think that way, because, you know, that's exactly what the Savior told us to do. Unless he becomes a little child, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And that sort of childlike faith, the focus on the Savior, the focus on love, I really think that almost all the problems in the church would vanish if everybody had that same kind of focus. And probably, and we're less concerned about the other kinds of things. It's interesting that, you know, the whole COVID issue, you know, I've talked to Ian about this. You know, I'm a member of the Tabernacle Choir.

I heard.

And, and We stopped meeting for 18 months during the pandemic, and I had only been in the choir for about 10 months before that. And so during the pandemic, I almost thought, was the choir a dream? Did that really happen? Am I really still a member? But when we came back, we all had to be vaccinated, and we would be tested for COVID before every rehearsal and before every performance. And a big chunk of the members didn't come back. They wouldn't do that because of the testing, because of the vaccination. They eventually came back because they finally said, I think it was about a year later, they said, okay, now the pandemic has passed and even if you haven't been vaccinated, you can come back. And there was a large chunk of the members that wouldn't come back. So it's interesting to see that that's something that's of concern to people. On the other side of the world.

But it really is. I think that the— I mean, the person in my own ward was very, um, he felt that he had to be obliged to have it because it had been on, on the LDS website, right? Um, my opinion is that our prophet is, um, a man of medicine as well as a man of God, and so he understands what he believes to be right, but we have our free agency and we can choose. And he's not saying you have to do this. And so, um, that's where I stand on it. I know we've got a member of our state presidency that's never had the jab, refuses to have the jab, and that's fine. My own son refuses to have the jab. Um, I mean, thankfully it's not needed now, but, but I would have— I have, I have no opinion on him choosing to or choosing not to because that is his choice. It's not my choice. Um, and so I, I think, you know, we accept people's opinions, we accept people's ways, and we take it as that, that's their ways, but they're not our ways sometimes, and that's okay. But I think that, um, the way that we manage the culture of the church over here is, um, it's definitely changed. It's taken a big shift over the last few years, even since I've been Bishop. Um, I feel that we're very inclusive. I had a, I had a, a woman that we baptized last year, and her husband, a new husband, was, um, he'd been a member of church all his life, and he'd gone through a divorce, had both been through divorce and got married. And she has children that identify as a different gender. So she has a daughter that identifies as a boy who's dating a boy who identifies as a girl. If you can get your head around that, that makes sense. Yeah.. And we start church at 10 o'clock and at 1 minute to 10, they rocked up with the daughter that identifies as a boy and said, so he'll be coming into priesthood today and he'll be using the male toilets. All right, well, okay, this is going to be a tough one. And I've got 1 minute to 10 and all these people that are quite old in church might not quite understand how to deal with this. And so we had a very, very, very quick meeting after with the Relief Society president and the priesthood leaders and said, look, we have to show love no matter what we do. We have to make them feel welcome. We just put an arm around them. We accept that they're here because they love God. They want to learn about Jesus Christ. And all those other things, they don't really matter. They're fine. So what we've done is we've changed the sticker on the, on the toilet, on the disabled toilet, so it has a picture now of a man and a woman. So it's a unisex toilet, and we have made them feel welcome. And actually, there is no reason why we should feel any other way, because Jesus would love them no matter what. And what they will do is, at one point, they'll stand before him and they'll give account of their lives, and everything will be made fine. That's how I feel about it. And so I don't have an opinion on that. I do understand that there are cultural things where I maybe had somebody in my ward didn't think it was right that a sister closed the meeting and it should be a brother. With the final talk. And so he switched the talks around, and I found out on the day. So I switched them back and reprimanded him and said, we never do that again. And we've had a sister of Claude's probably 4 weeks on the bounce after that, just to prove the point that that's what we can do. Um, so those kind of things I think are a bit more real, and we're dealing with real issues. Um, I can't compare it particularly to Salt Lake because I've not lived in Salt Lake. I've visited Salt Lake From the missionaries that come and visit in our ward, I would say that they, um, probably slightly institutionalized sometimes, but I do know the underlying current is that they love Jesus Christ and they know why they're here. And so I don't think there's massive differences, but I do think that we're probably a little bit— we're outside of a bubble, aren't we? So we live it differently, slightly.

I think the way you handled that situation is just Perfect.

Thank you.

I, you know, and I hear what you're saying and I agree with it. Having grown up, you know, I grew up in Southern California, not in Utah. I'm Southern California. It certainly has more members of the church than the UK does. But the thing that always struck me growing up was exactly what you're talking about, that the people who served, it wasn't about status. It wasn't about you know, I'm going to get noticed for doing this, or I'm going to be, you know, now that I'm a stake president, now everybody will, you know, it'll help my business, or, you know, I mean, those kinds of considerations come into play in Utah in a way they didn't when you're outside of that bubble. You know, everybody who served, they were there because they wanted to be there. They weren't there because they'd been dragged to be there. And culturally, I think that's a much stronger stronger place to be. And so it's really encouraging that, that, uh, that you've created an environment where that's the case. I want to pause here because Ian, I just saw that we're running— it says the meeting is— is the meeting going to get shut off? Do we have to do a second meeting?

No, we can keep going. It's Teams. It just— it's not— it keeps going.

It does keep going.

Okay.

Okay.

I think so.

Yeah.

I really hope that I won't have offended anybody with that. That wasn't my intention.

No, it was not at all.

Great. On what I think is the difference, I, I think you're completely fine.

I, I listen to you, Graham. I think you represent the very best of the church.

Thank you.

And it speaks to the topics that Jim Bennett talks a lot about. In regards to those universal principles that are fundamentally the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is love, kindness, respect, listening, caring, being there for people, helping people resolve the problems, teach individuals how to resolve problems, helping people with someone's low self-esteem or self-worth. It's essentially all of the principles that Christ taught. Who he was, how he lived, his example. You know, he was in the streets visiting people's homes on the hills. He was entrenched in the lives of the people and he was deeply concerned about people. And you are, I'm a little bit biased here, but I think our listeners listening to this will agree with me that you are a wonderful representative of Jesus Christ and all that he taught. I know you're not perfect 'cause I know you, but at the same, At the same time, I think you do represent the very best of the Church, and I'm just so honored. I do feel a wonderful spirit here just listening to you and talking to you about this because it's so important. And I know the members of your ward love you deeply. I know the qualities that you have as a bishop are across the Huddersfield Stake. I've heard wonderful things about President Bridgestock, a great leader. And you've got extraordinary leadership. And, and the Huddersfield State Gym is incredibly tight-knit. They look out for each other, they love each other, and they're, you know, when push comes to shove, they're always there for each other. And that's it, that's it, that's it. And again, the culture there is quite different, I think, from that, uh, from that Utah level. People, uh, for the most part, they really just wanted to help because they want to help. And I— it's just great to have you share those things with, with us, Graham. I, I know Jim has got a few questions, and I'm okay for a few more minutes here, but yeah, I've got, I've got a question for you, Graham. As the bishop, you know, you're 2 years into your calling, and it's very rewarding, lots of joy. There's some challenges, and you've spoken about those, including the one more recently, and I, I can't imagine how you navigate something like that. Um, but you've got that, you've got that support from family leaders and the ward, of course. So you, you, you your close band of members there in the ward of the stake. But my question to you, as you look at your life and where you came from, your youth and your whole experience in the church, I'm older than you, but we share a lot of the relationships and a lot of the history and memories of how the church was and the stake was back then. You're now currently serving as a bishop in the Dewsbury Ward with all of the challenges and rewards that that goes with. From your perspective, how do you see the— as a bishop as well— how do you see the evolution of the church going forward? Where do you see some of the changes or maybe improvements from your perspective as a leader and as a rank-and-file member?

I think, I think, um, in answer to that, I think a lot of the changes have already begun. I think that the historic way of how things were managed were for a season. And I do believe that a lot of those have changed, particularly the way that we deal with people that have struggled. You know, um, I, I had a person that I was dealing with that was struggling, and I think probably in the past it might have been that they may have sat on a cart, um, but the option was that I could manage that personally. And I felt, I felt I, I probably would do that, but I needed to seek counsel, and I was struggling with it. And I went to the temple And literally, as I drove on the temple grounds, I knew what I needed to do. And I think the message that I received was, they need to serve more. And I think that it used to be that if, if somebody was facing challenges, we may maybe restrict something like, you know, you can't pass sacrament, you can't take sacrament, you shouldn't pray in a meeting, whatever it might be, you can't attend the temple. And so what my thought at that time was that if you've got 10 good things and 10 bad things and you take some of the good ones away, well, you're overpowering it with bad things. So what we'll do is we'll do it the other way around. So we'll flip it on its head and give more good things. And so I came back and I sat with the person, and we sat for probably 2 to 3 hours, and I said, look, I want you to do this, and I want you to do this, and I want you to do this. And they said, oh, okay, that's how it's normally been done. I said, no, it's not. This is how we're going to do it though. And, um, the person's super strong, they're active, they're fully active, they've put everything right in their lives, and they felt that they were managed in love. So I think that's one of the things that possibly has changed a little within the gospel, certainly from my understanding. Now, I think if it continues that way, that's, that's only good, that's only good, because I do believe that some of the people who have left church probably got quite bitter about the way things were handled at the time. And I understand that. I, I'm not We're human beings, and so I understand how that feels. Um, I think that we've got a good network of, of support with people that aren't just a clerical leader now. So if there is a, a mental health challenge or a marital challenge or whatever it might be, or the addiction recovery program, whatever we have, they're there, the facilities to use, and the, the trained professionals And so from a, from a bishop's point of view, yeah, it's tough and it's, it's a, it's a lonely place sometimes, and there are a lot of things on your shoulders, but there's a wonderful network to share that responsibility now. So I don't feel it in the way that possibly maybe you did when you were Bishop Ian, because you maybe didn't have the same network. Um, I think the network's strong. I think it's good. I think that there's always people to speak to. Um, I think there's some of the things that maybe were taboo a little bit in terms of what we could and couldn't talk about now are not taboo, and so we can discuss things openly and freely. I just think it, it's, it's a great place to be right now. I don't think it is a— I don't say— I don't say this lightly— I don't feel it's a burden ever. In fact, it's interesting, we just had a bishops' council, and at the bishops' council they said that bishops will be serving probably longer now. And I just said, that's fine, you know what, I envy Vikas because I'd love to give up my job and work on this full-time. If I could do this full-time and pack in my business, I'd be absolutely over the moon and I'd do it for 20 years. I absolutely love it. And just seeing the change in people's lives, that's got to be the most rewarding work, surely. Because, uh, the day-to-day work I do doesn't reward me at all, but the rewarding work is done on a Sunday and the bits on evenings, and just, it's great. It's amazing. I do think that there are other little bits of changes. I did just ask our stake president something today, and he said, you need to read the handbook, Bishop. And I said, okay, that's fine. I'd had this feeling that I'd like to ask a young man, if as long as I presided, if he could conduct the service on a Sunday as part of his training to be a, a leader. And he said, well, the handbook says no. Surely we can tweak that a little bit. I'm kind of hoping that as things move forward, we should consider things like that.

Did you do it?

No, I'm— well, I did think about doing it and then asking for forgiveness after. That's my usual way of doing things. Yeah. Um, but at the last Bishop's Council, there were 2 or 3 things that they discussed, and it was me who'd done them wrong each time. So I, um, I've learned to start to ask a little bit, not all the time. But, um, no, I haven't. But what I will do is I will run certain services where they can, and I think we should, and I think that is good for them. Interestingly, I had— we've had probably one missionary in the last 6 or 7 years from our ward. I've got 6 young men committed to go on a mission at the minute, so it says something about the way that they're working differently. My own son gets his mission call on Tuesday, by the way, this Tuesday, so we're super excited. But, um, I've had young men and young women coming out and saying, we would like to serve a mission now. And so I've got a, I've got a couple on a mission, I've got another couple preparing. I think before I get released as a bishop, we'll have had 10 or 12 on missions, bearing in mind we aren't at 10 or 12 in 20 years. So, um, I think there's a shift, and I think that we need to put more trust in our youth and train them to lead the next generation. For sure. So that's where a lot of my focus is, as it should be as a bishop, are the youth and the primary children.

That is the sign of a healthy ward, is do we have enough children coming up through the ranks to be able to lead the next generation of the church? And there are a lot of places, I mean, even where I'm living here in Utah, When we moved into this ward, uh, the primary was probably twice as big as it is now. Yeah. And part of that is that, that we're aging, you know, all the same people still live here and yet their children have all grown up and left. And housing prices are so high now here that it's very sort of prohibitively expensive for a young family to move into this neighborhood. So I think that's part of the problem. But I hear that, that it's, it's kind of a problem everywhere. But it sounds like that's, that's not a problem where you are. Is that right?

We're not in the most affluent area. I'll be very honest with you that it's, it's the little pockets of joy, which is exactly where we live. Really nice little— we live in a house that was built in 1840 and it's It's got tons of character and a little private street, but there's not much of that. And so house prices are relatively cheap, but not ideal location for raising your family for a lot. So, um, again, we have a very small area for our ward. I think it's 3 miles from one end to the other. Um, but we have a lot of very, very humble people. We have a lot of people. There's nobody that stands out like they want to stand above people. Everybody just wants to— I wouldn't say it's monotone because that's probably disrespectful, but it's all on a level for sure. And so people just are genuine with each other, and it's, it's, it's a gritty working-class town. So, um, we're fortunate that we've just got some, some really, really straightforward people. That, um, that know why they're here. We've got an aging ward. I've done 10 funerals in my 2 years, but I've also done 4, 4 weddings. I've got another wedding next week. I've got a wedding in August. So there are some also moving into the ward. We, uh, we had a, we had a look at our YSA when I first got called, and I think there was about 7 active YSA, and we're hitting 20 now. So that's where the strength is coming for sure. And we really just need to give them all that we can to help them through this and navigate this section. So we've called good leaders and we are making progress in all those areas.

Well, Ian, I can see why Graham would be your choice for a bishop here if you were to come back.

We don't deal with the 50 pluses, so we—

Yes.

Hey, what do you mean?

I'm already active. I attended.

I'm sending you a Temple of Reckoning interview shortly.

Oh, I'm sure you will.

He'll be happy to be serving in some calling or another.

But, it reminds me, Jim, of King Messiah who was an amazing king, right? And, King Messiah, he, and I was listening to Graeme there, King Messiah, and I know we're also finished out of time, but he was, he got his people together. It recounts equity and fairness and spirituality in his reign. He counsels the members to serve the Heavenly Father, um, and he just gathers around and he just says, it's not about me, you know, it's not about being a king, it's not about, uh, you know, himself, it's about, it's about members serving Heavenly Father and having that relationship. And, and, and Graham is like the modern King Messiah of Dewsbury, uh, but he's got, he's got those qualities and it just That's the way to lead. That's how to do this.

So it can't be about you, Ian. It can't be. It's not how it's meant to be. Listen, just, just one last thing. I, I have suffered with my own mental health over the years in relation to what happened with my own father and my family and my adopted sisters and all those kind of things. And I had my last therapy session the night before I got set apart as a bishop. And I, um, I, I worry every week that I say things wrong. That's why I was nervous about this.. And so I watch back the video every week to make sure that I haven't said anything silly, that I haven't made a fool of myself. Um, and so just because I'm a bishop doesn't mean I've got it all sewn up. It's actually quite far from it. I've got my own demons and I deal with those. But serving people is what gives me the peace. That's where I find my clarity. That's where I find my, um, my joy. And, um, I have to do it humbly. Because if I don't do it humbly, then, and I don't think it's about me, I'm quick to acknowledge my counselors and those serving in the ward at whatever capacity, because without them, I'm nothing. You know, I need them as much as they need me as a bishop. So I might be steering the ship a little bit, but they're doing all the rowing.

Well, that sounds like a good note to end here. Okay, I don't think you've said anything wrong here today, Graham, as long as I haven't offended anybody in Utah because I'm coming shortly. Well, so we'll let me know when you're coming because everything conference, we'll be over for conference. Oh, very nice. So I, I, well, I get extra tickets to conference. Do you have tickets to conference?

For sure, we get 12 for the state to split between everybody.

Oh, okay. Well, I've already pledged, so I only get 2 tickets and I've already pledged them to Gary McNaughton, who's a friend of ours from Scotland. Okay. If I get any more, I'll see if I can pass those along to you.

That'd be wonderful if you don't mind. Yeah, we'd love that. I should have been in Utah a couple of weeks ago doing some snowboarding, but I tore my cartilage, so I've got a couple of flights to take advantage of, which we'll do for conference.

Raymond, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for being here. Uh, you've been amazing. You've not said anything out of turn whatsoever. You spoke from the heart, you spoke from the spirit.

You are the best of the church.

You are a fine bishop. And for all the qualities and reasons that you've explained, the very thing that drives you is loving and helping people is what makes you a wonderful individual. And, and this has been a— it's been a wonderful experience for you, hasn't it? Just listening to this. Graeme was just a great, great guy, great bishop. Thank you. So thank you, Graeme. Please extend our love to Abigail and the family. Of course. We hope to see you over the summertime when I come over there. Any final comments, thoughts from you, Jim, before we close here?

No, I'll let that be the last word here.

Thank you.

Well, great.

Thank you.

Okay, more than welcome. And maybe we could have you on again. And just keep, you know, keep doing all the things that you do so well and continue to bless the lives of those amazing members and your family who are around you. So we love you. And again, thank you for being with us.

Okay, thanks. Take care. See you, Jim.

So that's it, folks. Thank you for listening to the latest episode of Inside Out. And we look forward to you joining us on the Next time next week.

Thank you.