A Conversation with Brett Palmer

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the podcast that takes a pragmatic and balanced look at the Mormon Church and faith. We consider all of the good that the church does, and it does a lot of good. And we also look at some of the problems and issues with the church and discuss ways in which we think the church could change and improve. The podcast wouldn't be complete without my partner in crime. So as always, I'm delighted to be joined by the indisputable Mr. Jim Bennett. How are you today, Jim?

I cannot dispute that I'm doing great. It's indisputable.

It's indisputable.

If people try to dispute with it, they will fail.

That's correct. That's absolutely correct.

You always win an argument, I think. Maybe, maybe never win. I'm not sure which one it is. But it's great to have you here with us, Jim. Appreciate you joining us here and being part of this really exciting conversation. We have a very special guest for this episode, someone Jim and I have wanted to meet for quite some time, somebody I've not seen for a very long time. And today we're joined by Brett Palmer, or should I say Elder Palmer, because I remember you, Brett, as a missionary in the Scotland Edinburgh Mission back in '87 to '89. I think you probably came out in '86 to '88, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, that's right.

Is that about right? And you served with— and probably it's probably okay to start, you know, we shared notes back and forth about how we would structure this conversation. It's probably a good place to start is somewhere in the middle, which is the mission. Perhaps, or, you know, early on in your life? Because, you know, my memory of you as a missionary was, uh, and I don't want to embarrass you here, but you, you were an absolute legend. Um, the stories I heard about you with your, um, live with exactness, I think it was, uh, live with obedience and exactness, that President Dunn, uh, who was, uh, your mission president for most of your mission, I believe, I think you're fondly or affectionately known as a Donite. And President Don, I mean, he was my mission president for the first 6 months. And he was a tough, a tough cookie, tough character. You served with him a lot longer than I did. You knew him a lot longer than I did. But your— I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your reputation in the mission was just unbelievable. Everybody I met wanted to serve with you. You were an extraordinary missionary, a very kind, loving individual, but an individual also with great leadership and total commitment and devotion to the Church. And you excelled in leadership as a missionary, and you became an assistant to President Dunn. And I just remember looking up to you. I was probably the same age, but I like you know, yourself and Elder Holland, and I think Elder Samson. Do you remember Elder Samson? Um, yeah, you remember him? And Elder Murdock and Corbett, do you remember those guys?

I do, yes.

Yeah, and, and I, and I was new, and I looked up to you guys and thought, wow, you know, what would it be like to be like those guys?

He had all this knowledge and, and also experience, and everybody wanted to serve with you, and I was the new kid on the block.

But it was— you, you were a very balanced missionary, and I just heard legendary things about you and some of the teachings. So, so it's just wonderful to reconnect with you. I have so much respect for you. And at the same time, I'm shocked, I think, and surprised. You and I have exchanged messages back and forth over the last year or so. I was very surprised to learn that you— correct me if I'm wrong here— but you don't go to church anymore.

That's correct.

You're not as active as you used to be. And, and to go from you know, where you were, um, that level of devotion, commitment, through a whole series of experiences since your mission and, um, and where you are now in your life. I'm absolutely intrigued and fascinated to understand how, how you got where you are today in terms of where you are in your life. And, and I, I shared this with you, and I shared this with Jim as well, that if, you know, individuals like Elder Palmer leave the church, then the church is in trouble. Uh, because, you know, that is, you know, when a lot of people join the church, especially in Scotland, as you know, many of the individuals don't stay for very long. They might stay a few months, even a year or two years, but they tend to drop off. Um, but you were a, you know, a, a lifelong devoted, committed individual and you served this extraordinary, uh, mission, and you had a profound impact on so many missionaries' lives, including my own. And so I, I— what I'd like to do, if you're, if you're comfortable with this, is kind of just, um, start in the middle or a little bit towards the, you know, early part of life at the mission time of your life, and just kind of enter into the conversation at that point, and then maybe go a little bit historical in terms of your upbringing and youth and this, you know, how you serve the mission, where it's gone. And then maybe jump forward a little bit in terms of, you know, what happened after your mission and how your life kind of, you know, panned out from there, so to speak. So, so you were a missionary in Scotland. Who, who did you serve with?

So I, like, like you said, I went, I was there in '86 to '88.

And first of all, very kind of you to say those nice things.

Definitely. I think Scotland was a special place. And as we talk about Mike and others, it was a pretty— it's a unique, unique mission that I haven't seen elsewhere with a lot of my friends. So, so I certainly learned from a lot of great elders before me, but I, I served—

my trainer was Elder Hardy. You probably didn't know him. And Elder Holland had been—

he was in my district, so he was I was in Dalkeith and then, um, uh, went to Springborg in Glasgow, kind of legendary, uh, chapel at the base of Easterhouse, kind of rough area. And then I got called to, uh, I went to Stornoway with Elder Holland and was there for, you know, 6 months. Elder Wilde, and I may forget a few, but all great companions, all great companions.

So, um, yeah, I had a tremendous experience in Scotland. But, you know, I think like a lot of missionaries, it wasn't easy. And I appreciate, Jim Bennett, I listened to your podcast a few weeks ago, how maybe, Jim, when you started your ministry, it was pretty—

you're pretty, you depressed and discouraged. And I was a lot like that probably for the first half of my mission, felt very inadequate.

Scrupulosity is the term, I didn't know then, but definitely had that and just felt guilty about anything I'd ever done in the past. And I would talk to President Dunn and said, hey, just go out there and work. And so that's what I kind of dedicated to, just working really hard.

And President Dunn, I love President Dunn.

I know a lot came out maybe later.

Um, he, you know, was pretty strict, um, and intimidating.

He was a big guy, uh, but he loved the missionaries.

And, and so serving with exactness is what, what, you know, he really emphasized, and being obedient. And that's the way I kind of been taught as a, as a youth from my parents is, yeah, obedience is the most important thing. And so I just kind of consider myself a soldier, just doing what I'm told and working really hard. And that's what got me through, through the day, you know.

But I'd say a lot of missionaries struggle at first.

And Scotland's certainly not easy. You're tracting all the time, a lot of rejection, a lot of time to reflect on things and really feel inadequate and things like that.

So yeah, um, and then later, uh, you know, well, both of you served in Inverness, right?

So yeah, I started with Kahoon first, um, and then I had Elder Beebe, and then I went senior zone leader with Elder Wrigley, I think it was. Jim Bennett came into the— was in the zone at the same time.

I was in.

Yeah, I had maybe 3 or 4 missions in Inverness. I was there for 6, 7 months. A great, great ward. I loved it.

Yeah, I didn't serve in Inverness. I was in the Inverness zone, but I served for 6 months in Thurso. Oh, okay. Okay.

Okay. So that was a zone. So when I was there, all there was just the Aberdeen zone.

So it was just all Thurso. I don't think anyone had been there. That was open later. So we served in Stornoway, was that island on the Outer Hebrides of Scotland. And, and it's a special place. All those places are pretty special. What you find out is just you and your companion are the district, right? It's just the two of you. So hopefully you get along. And I had a great companion, Elder Holland, and then Elder Wilde later.

And our zone conference was in Aberdeen.

So I, so what we would do is every zone conference, we would travel on the ferry and come over and get on the train at Inverness and essentially hop along with, with the different companions as, as they would just hop on and then we'd meet in Aberdeen.

And that's when I first met Elder Maddox. Is he was an elder in Elgin, um, and, uh, I think he liked me at first because I made some comment about his backpack.

And, you know, he's a pretty funny guy.

He didn't, he didn't like my comment, and I'd only made that comment because my trainer had made fun of my backpack the same way.

And he had this caribou backpack, it was massive. He would carry like 8 Books of Mormon and a projector and everything in that, in that backpack.

But I have fond memories of that. And, you know, one of my more spiritual experiences on my mission was really those Aberdeen zone conferences. So I don't know.

So for us, when we would go to Aberdeen, it's a long ways away from the mission home. So the mission president wouldn't even come up until the next day. So we would have a zone— the district leader meeting and the zone leaders would meet. And it would just be us. And then we'd be there and we'd, you know, sing hymns and share testimonies and give a lesson.

And I just remember really having some spiritual experiences there that stayed with me all my life.

And that was, that was pretty important to me. And then, then later on after that, I trained Elder Soko from Finland there in Elgin.

Oh, I replaced Maddox.

So Matt— Elda Maddox left and I went to Elgin after Storway. And then after that, I got called to be a zone leader with Elda Maddox. And that was part of the reason I wanted to come on, just pay tribute to Elda Maddox that we'll get to because he was just such a great person and sad to see him gone. And so I was companions with Elda Maddox twice, which is unusual., in the mission field. Um, so we were companions, uh, as zone leaders in Edinburgh.

And then we were only there. I was, that was a, I was just brand new zone leader.

So he was my senior companion there, I think about 3 months. And then they moved me to another zone over in Paisley and in, uh, Paisley and Motherwell. I served both in those places. Um, and then later when I think both of you probably met me is I was called to be an AP with Elder Maddox when President Banks came, right?

So, so I, I was fortunate to serve with two great mission presidents, very different, um, but both great men that I still really look up to a lot.

So, and I, I would say, yeah, I probably was with President Dunn longer, so they would call us a Dunboys kind of things, you know, that we were after the order of Dun, so to speak.

But love President Banks too. And it's not like President Banks wasn't a strict mission president either.

He was, he was just as strict. But I think the one difference is, uh, like President Dunn didn't let us, uh, eat at members' homes. That was—

yeah, in fact, well, the rule was is you had to have a had to have an investigator, right?

And so that wasn't very often. So we didn't eat at mission— at members' homes very often. I think that was probably— I mean, I understand why he did it. I think some people abused it. And so he took it away.

And then the other thing, I don't know if that changed when you were on mission, but we didn't call home.

So I didn't talk to my family for 2 years. I didn't call home on Mother's Day or Christmas. Um, I think, like, I think they let Elder Maddox— he would call home because his, his parents were not members, and they'd let him, um, call home on, on those days.

But, uh, yeah, so, you know, great, great spiritual experience, really transformative. Um, a lot of my lifelong friends are from Scotland.

Still to this day, and, uh, uh, great examples to me.

Um, so yeah, that's kind of in the middle.

Um, well, we, we've talked about Elder Maddox. Uh, we, we, we did an entire episode about his funeral, uh, which is where I saw you last. But you and I have also had some conversations in the interim, and we discussed your faith journey and the fact that you have decided that— have you removed your name from the records of the church, or are you just not— just don't go anymore?

I'm just no longer active. I'm still a Mormon. If anyone came and asked me what church I belong to, I would say I'm LDS, I'm Mormon.

I probably tell them I'm not a very good Mormon, but I'm Mormon.

And, you know, I grew up in the church. I'm a fifth-generation Mormon. My parents, my ancestry are Mormon pioneers on both sides. So growing up, I grew up in Orem, Utah. My dad taught at BYU.

So at an early age, just the the church was just every part of our life, right? And when my dad taught at BYU, our whole entertainment was around BYU. So BYU football games I would go to, um, with my dad. Uh, we'd go to movies in the Wilkinson Center where they'd edit the, the bad words, or they used to do that. We'd go to the homecoming, uh, event where you'd have the Laymanite generation and young ambassadors and all those things.

So while it was all, all influenced me, and I knew early on I was going to go on a mission, and that was just part of my heritage, which, you know, was another reason why I just had a lot of respect for Elder Maddox and Ian like you, you know, converts that join the church and go on a mission. That was like, you know, for those of us who grew up in the church, When we'd see a convert go on a mission, that was like, that was a real testimony boost to us.

It was, wow, that is, that's amazing. You know, I kind of call it the Mormon draft for those of us that grew up in Utah. You have to go on a mission. You know, if you're 19 and not on a mission, you probably should leave the state of Utah and go someplace else because everyone would be wondering what you're doing.

So yeah, so, um, so I came home off my mission, went to BYU. Uh, again, like a lot of things, you know, you have these spiritual experiences and they— I, I think, I don't know if it's the same with you, but when I came off my mission, yeah, I had a handful of baptisms. Scotland, you know, you're not— we're not very successful. Um, But I did come home with this.

If you were wrestling with scrupulosity, you assumed that the lack of success was a result of your unrighteousness.

Yeah, there's a lot of that.

Like, hey, you know, and it's kind of pounded into you that, you know, if you've ever done anything wrong—

it's like, yeah, I remember things like stealing crayons in Sunday school or something like that.

Just stump things that really weren't important.

But yeah, you get over those things, I guess. But yeah, that was something that always still bothered me. Then, you know, I came off my mission. I went right into school, which was really helpful because then you get busy.

And I remember I talked to my bishop, my former bishop, and said, hey, I think I want to be in MBA school. What's the best major to go in MBA school? And he, he didn't even hesitate, said engineering. So I changed my major like the next day to electrical engineering and, and studied engineering for the next 5 years at BYU, um, and then end up, um, you know, working in software. So now I'm, I'm a software engineer, uh, that's what I've been doing since then.

But I, you know, I'd say Still had a strong testimony through all that time. I got married. I met my wife at a BYU ward at a ward prayer.

So it was a singles ward.

I didn't get married right after my mission like a lot might do.

I was just graduating and I met her at a ward prayer. It was our singles ward. Kind of an older singles ward. It was a cool ward where they'd allow people to just come in. And so it was pretty popular. A lot of people just came in. They didn't necessarily live in the boundaries.

And yeah, we had a really short courtship though. And, you know, I just always believed, hey, you know, it feels right, you live right, things will work out. And that, I look back now and think that was really dumb.

You know, we should have had a lot longer engagement, found out more about each other.

Because what I found, she'd gone to BYU too. She'd grown up in Guatemala in kind of a less active family.

So when we got married, and we got married in the temple, going to church, you know, her dedication to the church and mine were a little bit out of sync, and that always caused some contention there. So, and, you know, I feel bad about that now because she was probably right and I was wrong. But, you know, we're still together and we have 4 beautiful children. And, you know, when you have your kids, they're just so special to you. And you just have 3 daughters and my youngest is my son and they mean the world to me. So I took it upon myself to really, you know, be a good spiritual leader to them and teach them the gospel.

In fact, I had 5 Palmer rules that we kind of joke about now.

First was, because I thought, okay, my My wife doesn't have the same background I do. So I'm just going to keep it fairly simple.

First one, everyone goes to church.

Second, everyone goes to BYU or gets a college degree.

Third, my son goes on a mission.

And four— and, and my daughter's getting on a mission too, but son has to go.

And fourth, everyone gets married in the temple. And my fifth one was everyone has to ski.

So we had that.

Those are the 5 fallen rules. And so, so I, I kept that and, you know, was active in the church. Most of my callings were like a lot of times elders quorum, presidency, often in the Young Men's, never in a bishopric. You know, didn't ever got called to that. And part of that I think might have been, you know, my wife and I, it might have been a little stressful for our marriage.

And I think leadership probably saw that.

So, yeah, so I love working with young men too. You know, I'd grown up in scouting and all that.

And that was, I thought was I just really had a positive influence on my life and wanted to do the same for the, for the young, you know, kind of pay back for all the great service that, you know, the leaders that I grew up with had done as well.

So yeah, I, I guess to tell you about my, my faith journey though. So everything's going fine. And in my 40s, uh, I—

one of my close friends, and we, we'd been roommates, um, at BYU, and, uh, we'd grown up together. We essentially went to kindergarten together, and our families were really close, and we skied together growing up. So, and he also became a great friend with Michael Maddox as well.

Um, and, uh, um, so So we went, we went on this ski trip up to Canada in kind of in British Columbia.

So beautiful. Did you go to Whistler?

No, not that far. It was, so we went, it was, uh, we did some, I think this is a heli skiing trip up by Nelson.

Oh yeah, no, yeah, not far from where I am. It's maybe 3 or 4 hours from here. It's the Valhalla mountain range. It's amazing ski resort area down there. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So just, just beautiful out there. And one night, you know, we're staying up late and he's telling me about his wife who's going through a faith crisis, who had just ran Rough Stone Rolling and had lost her testimony. And I was just really concerned.

I was like, first of all, this is my good friend growing up.

And his wife's wonderful and grew up in kind of a family like mine. And my friend, you know, kind of, he'd been our neighbor and we'd kind of reactivated their family growing up. So it's like, wow, all that work. And now, now you've lost your faith. So of course I went home, I bought Rough Stone Rolling, read it, and it actually didn't have that kind of effect on me. I I enjoyed it.

I like the history. I loved history. Um, there are a few things that were new, like, you know, polyandry and those kind of things about Joseph Smith and, uh, seer stones were, were, were tough, right?

Um, but it didn't have that— I'm still, still in. Um, then I, you know, I read CS Letter and I I, I didn't really like that either.

I read it and it read like, uh, you know, I, I thought it was supposed to be like a, a nice letter to, uh, an uncle saying, hey, ask these questions. And it really read more like an anti-Mormon pamphlet to me. So I, I really didn't enjoy that at all. That didn't impact me at all. But then, then started listening to podcasts and reading more And, you know, the Mormon Stories podcasts were a big impact on me. And I think where my shell finally broke was, was Simon Sutherton's interview with John DeLynn, and where he talked about DNA evidence in the Book of Mormon. And as a As a boy, I had grown up reading the Illustrated Stories of the Book of Mormon at an early age. I just read them. My heroes were Ammon and Captain Moroni. Growing up in Utah County there, we would have the Lamanite generation. They'd come and do their Native American dances at our school. I just thought that was the coolest thing on earth. So just really had a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the whole stories behind the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

And almost overnight, that's the one that just—

my shelf totally just crashed. It's like I just realized the Book of Mormon wasn't true. And if the Book of Mormon isn't true, then Joseph Smith isn't a prophet. And if Joseph Smith isn't a prophet, then it doesn't matter what the men in Salt Lake say they are or anything else. Everything is, you know, just a lie.

And, uh, that was, that was pretty crushing for me. Um, so, you know, I, and I've talked with others about this, it's kind of like, uh, You go into kind of some dark spaces of, you know, it's like a midlife crisis, you know, for a man, and then a faith crisis on top of it.

It's like a perfect storm.

It's like, wow, it just hits you and you just think, I've wasted so much time.

And you know, you just have a lot of regrets and It's kind of that, what do they call it, the kind of steps of grief where first you're in denial, you can't believe it's true, then you go through kind of anger, and then you finally come to cope with it, and then you kind of move on and you realize it's okay, we can keep going.

So that's, that's kind of what, what, what led me out. So like I said, I haven't resigned. I have really no interest in resigning.

I tell my kids, you know, I was, I was born a Mormon. I'm going to die a Mormon. You know, maybe after this podcast, my stake president called me up and, and have a different, different opinion, but Uh, that, that's always been my thought is that it's in my DNA. You can't, you can't take that away from me. Um, it's all I know.

I just, yeah, like, like you guys have said in other podcasts, I love the Mormon people. I love the history.

Uh, my ancestry, couldn't be more proud of them. I'm just, uh, You know, I'm just a non-believer now.

And but other than that, I'm the same person.

And so that's what makes this kind of tough when coming out like this is I don't think everyone knows that. And it's funny, my friends that do know, just like, you know, Ian, you said, I think they are scared to ask because they look and say, hey, if If Brett can leave, then I can leave, and I don't want to leave. And so they never—

we never talk about it, and that's fine. I understand.

Um, we, we meet, we're still good friends, and you know what, I would—

Mike and I were still pretty close, and we actually live relatively close here.

He would— he knew I was out because he would talk with my friend who was the same one that I went skiing with because he was good friends with him and asked, hey, how's Palmer? What's, what's he doing? Why don't you ask Palmer? And I went to lunch with him a few months ago before he passed away, and I, you know, we just didn't talk about it.

And now I, I have regrets about that.

I wish I wish we had talked more about it.

And I just said, hey, Mike, I love you.

You're one of my best friends. And I want you to know I have the utmost respect for you. But I, I no longer believe in the church.

I'm still the same person.

I'd do anything for you. And, you know, I didn't get a chance to do that. And I, I regret that. Yeah.

Is your wife where you are essentially, or the rest of your family?

Yeah, so when I had my faith crisis, it was really tough. My kids were—

so I have 4 kids, my 2 oldest were kind of in junior high, high school.

So it was really tough for them because I had, you know, brought them up in the church.

Taught them, you know, as much as I could on how to be a good Latter-day Saint. And my wife kind of leaned on me to do that, because she felt like she hadn't had the family to do that.

And so that was really tough for them. My two youngest were kind of in primary.

So when I stopped going to church, they just kind of, well, okay, yeah, we'll just stay home. With mom and dad.

Uh, so my, my wife is funny because when I left, she was kind of mad. It's like, hey, who's gonna, who's gonna teach the kids? You know, we need you to do that. And it's like, well, you could do it now. And, and so she was not that happy about my faith crisis, but over time she's in the same places as me.

Um, and, and my family, I mean, I think they still think their dad's crazy, but, uh, but we're close and they— we get together and we're still a really close family. So I'm happy about that. We talk a lot and they're— but yeah, we usually don't talk about religion too much.

What about your siblings or your parents? I don't know if your parents are still with us.

Yes, my mom passed away a few years ago before my crisis. My father is still alive.

And like I said, I had great parents, very spiritual people.

And I have not come out to my father and told him. I did— I went to breakfast with all my siblings except one who wasn't in the area, but And I'm the oldest, so there's a— there's, uh, I have a twin sister and then I— there's like a 9-year gap.

And then we—

then I have 4 adopted brothers and sisters.

I have 3 brothers and a sister, so there's 6 siblings altogether.

And I was the oldest and my parents kind of put me up there as, you know, hey, you're the example, first missionary. Um, So I felt like I needed to come out and talk to them.

And so I took them all to breakfast and just let them know that, hey, I want you to know I no longer believe, but I still love all of you. And, you know, I didn't tell them why. I said, if you want to know why, you can just ask me. I just no longer believe.

And they were all It was nice. They, they weren't judgmental.

They were all pretty supportive.

I mean, I'm, I'm the oldest, so maybe that makes it a little easier.

Um, and they knew my dedication in the church, so it's hard to like argue, you know, scripturally or doctrinally things.

Um, so yeah, um, I'd come out with to those. I think my dad has found out later. And the one reason I don't tell my father is one, he's a, he's a great man. And he's starting, starting to lose his memory a little bit.

So he's not the same as he once was. I felt like I, I think it would be really tough for him. He might forget we had the talk of few minutes later. So just don't bring it up. I think he knows because he used to always ask, hey, what are you doing in the church? And he doesn't, doesn't do that anymore.

Yeah, but we still meet with them.

We go up to his house, we watch BYU football games together, and we're still pretty close.

But I know that's the sad part.

He's told my sister once, you know, what did I do wrong? Because Several of my siblings are out. I'd say, uh, 4 are out and 2 are— let's say 3 are out completely and, uh, 2 are in and 1 is kind of nuanced. So it's a mixed bag.

It is that scrupulosity again, right? You know, as a parent, you know, if your children in the church, you raise them with the church, Um, and I did for a while, up until the, like, the, you know, mid-teens, late teens. And, uh, you heard my story, it's very, very difficult time actually, very difficult for my, you know, for my kids. Um, but, you know, thinking about your father, um, and it's probably very common where parents whose children have, have so-called gone astray, if you like, they question their, uh,, you know, their, uh, quality of it as a parent. You know, what did they do wrong? And maybe, maybe they feel they didn't live with exactness or wasn't as obedient enough, or maybe it wasn't devoted enough. But the reality is that, you know, we're all free agents, right? And, you know, kids grow up, they research, find out stuff for themselves, form their own opinion, and go the direction they want to go in. But I can see why a lot of parents in the church who have been so devoted, so committed to raising the family, you know, they wonder, you know, where do they go wrong as parents? And that, that can be tough for sure. Yeah.

Well, I mean, scrupulous— scrupulosity is something that essentially runs in our family. I, when I came home from my mission, uh, I mean, I, I am still now a huge Rolling Stones fan. In fact, tomorrow night I'm going to be in Denver, Colorado, watching the Rolling Stones live with one of my sons.

Hey!

So, but I came home from my mission and I had heard the Gene R. Cook talk where he talks about meeting Mick Jagger on an airplane. And Mick Jagger said to him, our music is calculated to drive the kids to sex. I don't know if you guys heard that one. And so I came home and I broke all of my Rolling Stones records and threw them away. And I said that to my son, not the son that's coming to the Rolling Stones concert, but his twin brother who was diagnosed with scrupulosity while on his mission. And he said to me, "Oh, Dad, I didn't know you had scrupulosity too." And I thought, you know, We didn't talk about it that way. We didn't discuss it. It was not even an acceptable topic of discussion as a missionary. I mean, I woke up every morning panicked that I had done something wrong that was going to drive some investigator away and that I had done something that was going to have an eternal impact on somebody else's salvation. And they would get to the other side and confront me and say, why didn't you get up at 6:30 in the morning like you were supposed to instead of getting up at 6:35. You know, I mean, it was really that level of intensity and there was no outlet to discuss it, to deal with it. You couldn't even acknowledge it. You couldn't even say, hey, I'm struggling with this. And early on my mission, I, I had this encounter with an evangelical Christian that shook me up. And President Banks came to Livingston, Scotland to sort of perform an intervention because I had just had this moment where I was doubting everything. And he gave me a blessing and was very kind to me. But one of the things he asked was, is there some unresolved sin in your life? And, and there wasn't. And other than Brett, the kinds of things you described with, you know, stealing crayons in primary or whatever else. I mean, there wasn't some kind of big unresolved sin. And but I kept searching for it because the lack of success that we all had in Scotland, which was due primarily to the fact that Scotland is largely a post-Christian country at this point, let alone, you know, there are half as many active members in Scotland now as there were when we were there 35 years ago. And you have to ask, well, does that mean that everybody that's— every missionary that's come through then just wasn't righteous enough? Is that the problem, or is there something else going on here? And the answer is, of course, there is something else going on here. But these are things that we weren't allowed to talk about. Brett, when you talk about your scrupulosity, is that something that you discussed with anyone when you were a missionary?

Uh, no.

I mean, maybe my mission president, because I just come up with, well, here's a list of things that I think I maybe need to take care of, you know.

And but he probably— I mean, particularly if it was Elder Dunn or President Dunn, he probably made it worse.

Yeah, you know, he was actually pretty good and just said, hey, you know, what I think convinced him is, well, Elder Palmer is very repentant.

I mean, he's— and I think I've actually got a letter from my bishop because he wrote my bishop and said, you know, Elder Palmer's having a hard time. And the bishop wrote me back and said, hey, you know, you've been forgiven.

Just don't worry about those things and get on with your mission. And yeah, but definitely they didn't talk about scrupulosity at all. That wasn't a topic that even— thing people brought up. You know, on our mission, we had a few people with, you know, mental illnesses that probably shouldn't have been on the mission, you know, but that was back in the day. You just the bishops would just send them off on a mission and thinking, you know, you're going to pray and work hard and everything great.

And, uh, you know, this is a person that, like, I think we had someone with schizophrenia and they finally got some help and they sent them home and they had no business being on a mission.

And the President prided himself on the fact that he didn't send anyone home, which looking back on it I think was a huge mistake because I can name you at least 5 missionaries that I think were damaged and damaging people by staying out.

And I can name a missionary 5 times.

I know exactly who you're talking about, and I don't know that we should talk about it any more than that.

Another time, maybe.

Another time. But But I mean, President Banks absolutely felt like you can't go home. If you go home, I talked to some of these missionaries who went to President Banks and said, I want to go home. And President Banks laid such a huge guilt trip on them of, if you go home, you're going to go home as a failure. And that's going to follow you for the rest of your life. And it's going to follow you into the next life. Because you're not going to be valiant in your testimony and all of that kind of thing. And I think a lot of that pressure that we felt has been lifted to some degree because I— well, for one, the stigma for coming home early isn't nearly as bad as it was when we were missionaries. I mean, I dreamed of escaping from my mission and going over into Russia and crossing the Bering Strait land bridge to start a new life and my new identity. Because the idea of calling my parents and saying, I want to come home early from my mission, was just too horrible to contemplate. The stigma that was attached to that. I don't think I knew anybody growing up that had come home early. And the idea of coming home early was just, oh my goodness, you are the worst person in the world. Well, you look at it now, and the statistics are off the charts compared to where they were back then. I've seen some numbers that say somewhere close to 30% of missionaries are coming home early.

Yeah.

I've seen it in my own ward. I can remember we had this beautiful, tearful farewell for this one missionary when I was in a bishopric. And 3 weeks later, I show up at church and there he is. And I was like, oh, well, hello. And, but, but the, the absolute stigma attached to that doesn't seem to be there anymore. And I think probably because out of necessity, the church has sort of started having to deal with that. On a regular basis. But when my sons were out there, there were mission psychologists, and my son with scrupulosity met with a mission psychologist every, every week, except the psychologist was under contract with the church so that nothing that my son said was confidential. The psychologist had to share all of the information from the sessions with the mission president, which I just thought was nuts. I thought, geez, give this guy an opportunity to deal with a healthcare professional in a professional setting. And, but the church doesn't seem to be there yet. But they've come a long way from the place where we were, which was shut up and get to work. If you have any problems, it's your problem and you're a terrible person. I mean, now that you've Now that you've stepped away from the church, Brett, do you still feel sort of that churn of scrupulosity? Do you sometimes wake up in the middle of the night and go, what if, what if I'm wrong and I'm going to burn in hell, kind of thing?

No, no, I don't.

In fact, I—

one, the one feeling I had when I finally just self-crashed is I kind of liken it to, um, you know, when you've repented of something, or maybe you talked to your bishop about something, and you just feel so relieved after you're out and feel, you know, great again about your life.

When I no longer believed in the church, all that guilt and all that weight on my shoulder just fell off. And I felt, you know, I had other feelings too, but definitely felt like Yeah, I, I don't have any guilt about anything like that anymore.

So that went away.

I mean, really, the scrupulosity was kind of short-term for me.

It was, it was on my mission. Now I'd say even, you know, I got home, it was still around a bit.

Um, like I did Rolling Stone story too, Jim Bennett, and I saw them in Vegas a while ago.

So, oh yeah, I was there in '21.

Yeah.

Yeah, we were there at the same time. Should have said hello.

Great. I should have. But so when I went home on my mission, I extended a couple months. And so I went by myself.

I didn't have a companion. And, you know, I didn't want to watch a movie because I'd feel really bad about that.

So I'm listening to music, you know, and it's an oldie station. How wrong can you go with an oldie station? And this— and I was not a big Rolling Stones fan before this, but all of a sudden they're playing 19th, uh, Nervous Pray was out. Yeah, yeah. And I remember listening to that and I remember this feeling because I, I loved rock music too, and I felt really guilty about—

I grew up, you know, listening to AC/DC and Mötley Crüe and, and Van Halen and You know, in the church, those were always— those are really bad. You'd have firesides about them, and they were going to condemn you if you watch those things.

But I, I really liked them.

And when I listened to that Rolling Stones, I felt this feeling come back.

And, and you know what it was? It was President Dunn told me it's the spirit of rebellion. And, and it was, it was the spirit of rebellion when I was listening to it. And it felt fantastic.

But of course I felt really guilty about it. So I, you know, I told my stake president when I got home, yeah, I listened to some music on the airplane.

I'm sorry.

That's okay.

That's so crazy.

I think Nervous Breakdown is one of the mildest Stone songs you could possibly listen to. I know, I know.

The new Rolling Stone—

oh, you froze up there, Ian. Can you hear him, Brad?

I can, I can hear you.

Even now?

Now, now again, yeah.

There you go. Can you hear me?

Yes. Yeah.

Okay, yeah, I was a bit of a dilemma for President Dunn. Him and I didn't really get along. I questioned him a few times. He was really pissed off, you know, rebuked me a couple of times in the Action here, most things.

You're muted, Jim.

Oh, we seem to be having some more— Ian has frozen up here just a bit. Uh, well, you know, I'm gonna quick— before Ian gets back, uh, I want to tell a quick story. Like, it's President Banks. I never had President Dutton. I got out in September of '87. And President Banks was called to be a General Authority while I was still a missionary. And in my final interview with President Banks, he said, look, I don't usually do this, but I want to talk to you about what you're going to do when you go home, because I'm not going to see you again as your mission president. And so I— tell me what your goals are. And back then, Prior to being— it looks like you're back there, Ian.

Oh, yes.

Okay. Well, I'm gonna finish my wild and dangerous story here. Prior to leaving on my mission, I was a theater major at the University of Southern California, and I wanted to still be a world-famous actor. And so I told that to President Banks. And President Banks said, okay, well, Jim— Elder Bennett, let me tell you a story. Told me the story of his son. He and his son had an evening together and he said, okay, son, you pick the movie, I'll pick the restaurant. So they went to dinner and then they went to a movie. And after the movie, President Banks said, okay, what did you think of that movie, son? And he said, "Oh, it wasn't half good, wasn't half bad." And President Banks said, "Well, geez, there was so much swearing and there was so much immorality." And he says, "Well, geez, Dad, I hear all that kind of stuff at school all the time." And he said, "Well, would you take a date to see a movie like that?" And his son said, "Sure." "Well, would you take the Savior to see a movie like that?" And I interrupted him at that point and said, well, President Banks, I wouldn't go see any movie with the Savior. And, and, and his response was, well, Elder Bennett, that's why I don't go see movies. And my response wasn't all movies are evil. It was, if Jesus shows up on my doorstep, I'm not going to say, well, geez, there's a matinee. We can just catch it if we, if we go right now. Oh, looks like we've lost Ian here again.

Yeah, you see if you can— can you call him back?

Yeah, I'll see if I can add him back in. Um, I'm ringing him there. Uh, but to me it was— that doesn't mean I, I wouldn't take Jesus to go see a BYU football game either, just because I don't think that that would be a great way to spend time with the Savior of the world, but Ben Banks insisted that that meant that pop culture was somehow evil and wicked and, and needed to be avoided at all costs. And so I went home from my mission with that in the back of my head, panicked that I couldn't be a theater major because I'd be wicked and terrible. And so I spent a year at the University of Utah trying desperately to find something more wholesome to do with my life., and I, I finally went a, a year after that. I went back to USC, uh, during spring break, during that year, during spring break at the University of Utah. I went down to LA, went to USC, bumped into all of my old classmates who all just said, oh, Jim, we missed you. And why can't you, you should come back. And so I went back and finished my degree at USC to be a world famous actor, which didn't work out. But that the mission council was, you know, this is an evil, wicked way to live your life. And I ended up, you know, I ended up running theaters. I didn't really spend a lot of time as a professional actor, but all of that kind of that scrupulosity followed me and it's followed me to a large degree through my life. I think that I've got a handle on it at this point. But, but for a very long— I remember when I got married, we were on our honeymoon and my wife told me that she didn't believe in a literal flood and a literal, literal Noah's Ark. And I went, who have I married? What have I done? You know, and I look back on that and it seems very silly to me that that was even an issue, but You know, these are the kinds of things you wrestle with. And so when you, when you finally decide to sort of step away from the church, it's always fascinating to me to see how much of that kind of stuff follows you. And it sounds like none of it has, which means you're in a very healthy and productive place.

Well, Jim, I'm just impressed. You're on your honeymoon. You're talking about Noah's Ark. That's That's, that's, that's impressive. That's that same way it wasn't a topic we brought up, but yeah.

We talked about polygamy too, and she insisted that polygamy was not of God. And that was another thing where I went, oh no, who have I married? And it's just very interesting now that I, it, my wife and I have had all kinds of disagreements and struggles and whatever else, but. Hey, we were asked at one point, we— they've never followed up. There's a podcast out there called Marriage on a Tightrope. Yeah, my friend Alan Mount and his wife run the podcast and they said, we want Jim, we want you and your wife to come on this podcast. And we agreed to do it. They haven't— they haven't followed up, so we've never been on. So, Alan, if you're listening, we'd be happy to do it. But in talking to my wife, I, I, she said, you know, we've had all kinds of disagreements, but the church has never been one of them. We really are very much in exactly sort of the same place in terms of our participation in the church and our belief in the church. And it's, it's certainly a much more— I, the word nuanced drives me crazy because I— it just sounds like such a cliché, but for instance, I no longer believe in a literal global flood, but I don't think that that has anything to do with my faith. I don't think— I don't think we have to believe in a literal global flood. And I used to think we did. So, you know, my understanding of what's important and what's essential as a part of my faith has changed dramatically over time. And I think I've just kind of caught up with where my wife was when we got married. Yeah, I think about it. So Ian, has any of that sort of scrupulosity followed you out of the church?

No, and thank goodness. So what happened? My experience sounds like it's very similar to what Brett went through. You know, I had my— I like the way Brett described it— midlife faith crisis, a very profound experience. I had the same experience with the CS Letter. It didn't do anything for me. It was an anti-Mormon tract, a document that I didn't— still don't put a huge amount of value on, frankly. But it was the, you know, the Race of the Priesthood, and it was the essays, and it was some of the— a couple of the Mormon Stories podcasts. And, and so what happened when I went through the very similar stages that Brett went through, you know, shock, hurt, anger, betrayal, so much pain. I came out of that dark valley that I was in, the dark night of the soul, as it's been described before. I relate to that. And what happened to me was in a fairly short period of time, I felt all this guilt lift from me because I've been living something that wasn't true. That wasn't, you know, the basic principles were true. Love, service, kindness, forgiveness, repentance. I still believe and subscribe to those universal principles, which are not unique to the church, as you know, but those very detailed specifics that absolute live with exactness, you know, going to the temple, wearing the garments, living with like we did on the mission, you know, we had these tick boxes. You know, we've done this, done this, done this each morning, right? And prayers and, and do this, etc. And if you missed something, then, then you'd feel so guilty. That lifted fairly quickly for me after I realized that, ah boy, I'd been beating myself up for no reason at all. And what comes to mind, and so as I respond to you, Jim, and think about what Brett said earlier, One question I've got for you, Brett, you mentioned earlier, if I heard correctly, that you regretted some things and I think you said that you felt you'd wasted some of your life or part of your life because you realized, hey, it's not all what it claims to be. My question is, do you still feel that about the church generally? For example, do you still feel, you feel the mission was a waste of time or regret? Are there any aspects where, you know, how can you contrast the two? What was a waste of time, and what would you say perhaps, you know, wasn't a waste of time, even though you don't go to church? Um, there's a question in there somewhere.

Yeah, no, those are—

I—

it's— and it's— oh, they probably— it's complicated, right? It's like, um, my mission still had such an impact on my life And, you know, I left the mission thinking that missions are for missionaries.

It's the— it's really, we're not that successful converting people, but it converts the individual. And, and, you know, it worked for, you know, 40-plus years of my life, of being very dedicated to the church.

And some of my greatest friends are from my mission. So I would have never met, you know, Elder Mannix or Elder Holland or other Nihlander, you guys, uh, would have met my mission presidents. Um, so yeah, just a lot of great elders, uh, and sisters.

Um, it would be sad that I didn't get to meet them, but you know, I, I guess part of it is just some of the guilt you felt as a youth, you know, um, when you're probably not really any different than 99% of young men your age, right? And you're tempted by different things.

I, you know, I love my parents, but I always felt like I was not as good as they were.

I mean, I never heard my mom swear, ever. I think my dad has sworn like I can count on one hand. And I was swearing from the 6th grade on, you know, all the time.

And I think it ended like How did I get this family?

And they teach you, you know, you're the chosen generation. So I'm thinking, oh well, I just must have been a really good soldier in the preexistence and they put me with these great parents. I couldn't go wrong. And see, all these beliefs that you think you had, and then you realize, oh, those are, those are not real.

So yeah, I, you know, Definitely, like, the things that I think the church is great at, like service.

I grew up really loving my ward and being in Young Men's and being around.

I know there's abuse that can happen, but scouting for me was, was, was really, you know, very—

I was very impressed by the people I was with.

You know, you know, men that would give up a week of their vacation to spend a day, you know, to spend a week at Scout camp with you. I think back, wow, that's something. And so a lot of service. The church always emphasized education, and I'm always grateful for my education.

It's been, it was always important growing up, and you know, why I came home off my mission, going to school and getting an education. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons the church is so wealthy, is they have— they, they're smart and that they get— they get— they encourage people to go get an education and better themselves, and so they can be a little more affluent, um, as they grow up.

Um, yeah, I— it's, it's mixed. I, I feel better now, but I, I guess just You know, I'm mixed on the mission because it's, you know, that's the 2 years when you're at your best part of your life and you're dedicating that to the church.

And I guess the part that kind of makes me angry is the things we taught weren't necessarily true. And that's—

but I gave 100%. This is what I—

and I convinced people this is what I believed in and this is true. And that's the part that you kind of get angry about when, when you find out that isn't the truth.

And, you know, I don't blame my—

I don't blame our leaders like our mission presidents or stake presidents or bishops because they probably—

they don't know any more than we do. But it's the leadership.

They knew, they knew about seer stones, they knew about, um, you know, polyandry and all these other kinds of things, and You know, I remember I went to BYU and really was interested in history. So I take a history class, Mormon history.

None of that stuff is taught at all. So it's like, hey, I mean, I'm at a university level. Isn't it time we finally, you know, throw off the Sunday school lesson?

Let's get down into the what really happened. And none of that.

And, and the people, the historians that are telling about it, this is the time when they had the September 6th is about the time I graduated from BYU.

They're excommunicating him for, for teaching the truth.

And that's the part that just really bothers you, especially if you got to this scrupulosity. You've been coming clean with anything you could possibly do because you think the church expects that. And then you find out they haven't really been that honest with us. And And I have some mixed feelings about— we talked about a lot of missionaries coming home.

Some are coming home for, you know, mental reasons or different things, which is good.

And others are being sent home because they made a mistake before their mission.

And, and I really mixed feelings about it. It's just like, okay, you send this person home, you're never going to see them again. They're not going to come back. You've humiliated them in front of their family..

And I think a better approach— I mean, I'm mixed because I think a better approach would be you have this person, he's obviously repentant, he's come to you, he's told you some stuff, and he's going to work his butt off for you. That would be the better option.

But, you know, they sent him home. And that's why I think some things are just so stupid. Like, why would you do that?

Well, the numbers of people, not just missionaries that are sent home, but the numbers of missionaries who complete their missions honorably and then leave the church within 5 years, I've seen numbers that say that that's close to 50% at this point that we're seeing. You're seeing just this large departure. And the way I've described this too is that The thing that ought to be concerning to the brethren or to anybody who is concerned— it's concerning to me— somebody who wants to see the church grow and succeed is that these younger people that are leaving are not going through the kind of Brett Palmer, Ian Wilkes faith crisis that, that led you out in this very painful struggle where you finally end up saying, I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't believe this anymore. And you leave. They're leaving and they're just saying, no, this doesn't work for me. And they're sort of shrugging the way I say it. They shrug it off like it's an ill-fitting suit and they just go on with their lives. And, and this is the thing that we're seeing over and over again. It's not, it's not just the church. This is something that the— that all the churches, Christian and non-Christian, are seeing, is you're seeing an increase in secularization, the rise of the nones. They talk about it, people with no religion. But, you know, the kinds of things that kept us in, the kind of fear that was used to keep us in, doesn't work anymore. I think with the rising generation at all, it's not— there's no stigma, there's no anything. It's just, nope, I don't believe this. Nope, this doesn't work for me. Off I go. And I think that that is— that is the thing we need to address because we keep pretending that the old ways still work. We keep pretending that piling on the guilt piling on the scrupulosity. That's the way to do it. We just haven't given you enough fear to keep you in, enough shame, enough guilt, and it's not going to work. We've got to take an entirely different approach. We've got to recognize that all of the things, Brett, you raise— polyandry, seer stones, or whatever else— that all of these kinds of issues are issues that we need to address and correct head on. And we don't do that. We sidestep them. We say things like, maybe we're asking the wrong question. No, no, I think we're asking the right questions. At least they're the right questions for the people who are asking them. And we— I just think I am so grateful for you sharing your story, Brett, because I think the more people who hear those— these kinds of stories, Hopefully this will reach enough of a critical mass where we realize in the church that the approach we're taking is exactly the opposite of the approach that we ought to be taking. Ian, am I wrong about that, or do you agree with that?

I agree with all of that. It's hard to disagree with any of the things that you've said. I just, it's like the brethren are asleep at the wheel. It's like the They're living in a different time zone, a different age still. You know, they're very old men and living in the past. You know, why can't we just be open and honest and say, hey, look, we've got a difficult history. We messed up. We were afraid that if we shared too much, you know, the meat and the milk concept, right? If we give the meat, you know, too much of the meat too soon, then, you know, we were afraid you're going to leave. We didn't want you to leave. We love you. We care for you. But They've gone too far to the extreme and they've hid that. And what happened? The internet emerged, right? And they could no longer control the narrative and all the information's out there. But I just long for the day when we can just, you know, when I was going through my faith crisis and Brett, you've not talked about, I don't think you've talked about the reaction of the church leaders when you were going through your experience. Be interesting to get your perspective on that for sure if you can. But you know, when I tried to ask questions at church, Jim, I walked across that threshold of the church, came from the car park, walked through the threshold of the church. I felt my right to ask questions that I wanted to ask was removed from me. And I was told— and I was on the stake presidency at the time. I've been a bishop in Dalkeith, by the way, Brett, if you know that. Uh, you served in Dalkeith. I was a stake— on the stake presidency, and I had questions And I was told by rank-and-file members that a member state president shouldn't be asking those questions because you've got to bring doubt into the hearts of the members. I was asking all the wrong questions, to your point, Jim Bennett. For me, they were the right questions. But I just, you know, why can't they just be honest and say, look, we've got a colored checkered history, we made mistakes. Elder Uchtdorfer said we've made mistakes, right? I just, They're just asleep at the wheel. I just don't understand them at all. It's a very different, you know, type of thinking. So just to go back to you, Brett, on this, two questions I have for me. If you can briefly just tell us what the reaction was from the world and the state when you were going through your experience. And the other question I've just been really longing to ask you, if you don't mind me asking, is where are you at with God, religion, faith? Do you believe in God anymore? You know, you made a comment on one of my experiences that I had. You and I exchanged some messages about a recent experience that I had that was a very profound impact on my life, you know, in terms of, you know, coming face to face with death, frankly, without being exaggerating too much. But what was the reaction in your, uh, you know, when you were trying to ask questions and get to the truth and going through your experience, what was the reaction or support or lack of from the church leaders? And the other question is, where are you now? Do you, do you believe in God? Uh, do you believe in Christ? Uh, do you believe in any faith or any religion? So there's a couple of questions there for me.

Yeah.

Um, first of all, I, I wasn't really in leadership. I I think I had just been released as an elders quorum president.

My wife was somewhat less active at the time, and they, you know, they put me in primary, which is a terrible place to put someone that's— whose wife's less active is in primary, because you're there and you feel bad, and the sisters are there, and, you know, I I, I hated—

actually, I like teaching primary. I like teaching.

I hated the, the opening stuff and all the cute skits and music, and I hated that part. But so when my son finally graduated from primary, I think I asked to be released and take a break, and, and I kind of walked away, and they— and no one really— and then it was A few, couple years later, one of the, one of the, my, um, that worked with me at the 11-year-old Scouts talked with me about why I'd left, because I think he was trying to get me to come back to church. And that's why I had a really open discussion and went to much detail than we've done here, is all the different, you know, truth claims that I found were not true, and that my testimony was gone. And He hasn't talked to me since, since then. So I think that went back to the ward and the message was, yeah, Brett's a lost cause. Let's not— they're all, they're all still polite, but, uh, yeah, they haven't, they haven't really tried to reactivate me. I get, I get the emails and I, I get a home teacher text message occasionally, but yeah. Um, you know, one of my neighbors who I was elder's quorum president with, He's also out, and he's in a mixed faith marriage.

And that can be really tough, right? I mean, that's the— that's the part of this is I think the church needs— people just need to realize there's going to be people like me that leave.

And you can see how devastating that could be on a marriage if you went into it and just committed and, you know, you got— you went to the temple and you're expected to be together forever. And then one person leaves. And so a lot of the people that I talk with now are in a mixed stake marriage, and that can be pretty challenging.

So I'm grateful I'm not in that.

That makes it a lot easier.

But yeah, I would say my belief now is— I used to—

that was one of the big shelf breakers is Mormons, I thought, always had had the answers.

I still think the Mormon Church has the best story.

It's a, it's a cool story. Whether you like it or not, I mean, like, I still have issue with, you know, the, the term, you know, you get your own planet.

It's like, no, no, no, you get as many planets as you want. You know, let's get, let's get, let's get the theology correct. It's not your own planet, you get to create planets. I thought that was always a cool story. And then when I— that my shelf crashed, I lost, I lost faith in God and Jesus and religion in general because I just thought, uh, it's all made up.

Every, every— this is what the human race has done for generations, is come up with, with question— answers to difficult questions. It's usually around death. That's the part we don't understand.

In fact, I have another companion, I won't say who that is, but he—

I think I have two companions that are out of the church.

And one reached back to me and said, he's in—

so he's a Christian now. So he always sends me Christian messages and say, hey, you need to go listen to this.

And so I, I am— I'd still say I'm a Christian in belief. I don't know if there's a literal Jesus.

Or Son of God.

Um, I like, I like the teachings.

I think the principles are great. I love reading like biblical history and the secular part of, of, of did Jesus live at that time and that stuff. So I like that.

That's why when I listen to your podcast, uh, that's encouraging to me because that's the one my wife often asks me.

So you don't 'Necessarily believe we're going to live after this life?' And I have to answer, 'I don't know. I don't know.' So I would say I'm an atheist, but—

and I, I hope there is a God.

I hope there's a life after death. But I don't know. And what I'm absolutely convinced of is there aren't men or women on Earth that talk to God and, and that God directs them for us. That's what I'm convinced of.

Well, uh, you know, I, I, again, I appreciate you sharing this. I think we're coming up to the end here. Uh, I, I, I, I would disagree to some degree, but not to as big a degree as you might expect, in that I, I think that the, there are men and women who have all kinds of encounters with God. And, and I think the thing that, that we don't ever want to say in the church is that the way that the men who are the head of this church encounter God is the same way we do. You know, we, we used to think, or at least I used to think, that that Jesus would show up at the Thursday meeting in the temple when the apostles were meeting, and that President Nelson talks directly to God face to face. And I no longer believe that. And I think when you talk to these men up close and personal, they will concede that they encounter God through the Holy Ghost, which is how they tell us that we need to be encountering God. But we don't share that message far and wide to the point where I think that's part of what gets us into trouble. So anyway, Ian, can you sum it all up for us?

Absolutely. I'll try. I'll do my best here. Brett, we want to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing your experience, you know, and your mission experience. With us. Are there any other— any of the final messages that you could share with any of our listeners along the lines that you discussed already that you think would help somebody who's going through a transition, have gone through and still trying to find themselves? What, what advice could you give them from your experience?

First, I'd say time is always—

it always gets better. So if you're really down, because I think the hardest time is when you first have that faith crisis, it's pretty dark. And I, I'm on— I'm pretty involved with the Thrive group, and we have a Zoom call every Sunday at 9. And it's, and it's, you know, just rotates new people coming in, and often they've just been out a few months.

So helping them make through that, that first transition But life gets better and it's, it's not the end.

And, uh, there's still a lot more of your life to appreciate.

And, and, and, and I, I guess the other thing would be if you're a member of the church and, and a, and a family member falls out or a spouse, you know, love them still the same.

They're the same person.

And I think over time you'll, you'll be able to work things out and it's It's not, it's not the end of the world. And we still have a lot of good that we can do. So I'm grateful for what you guys are doing. I'm hoping that more and more that we can— I love living in Utah. And I'm surrounded by Latter-day Saints.

And this is my home.

And I, I love working with them.

But we just need to realize not everyone thinks the same. And you know, how can we work together and make the world a better place?

There's lots of things I, you know, some things I get frustrated at the church on, you know, like, I, I think the church does a great job of, if they set their mind to it, they can really do wonderful things. And we have a terrible homelessness problem here in Utah. Seems like that's something we could work on. I, I really disappointed with. I mean, so when we're getting— we're getting a Scotland Temple, right? I remember he and Jim Bennett— I remember when I was there, it was like, well, when we get the membership up, we'll get it, we'll get a temple for you. Well, the membership's not up, and, and we're building a temple for you anyway. So, and I, I just, you know, like, I wish they'd build a medical school.

This is—

we have BYU, we have an MBA school, you have a law school. President Nelson was a fantastic heart surgeon. Seemed like, why, why don't we build a medical school? You know, Jim, you know what, it's hard to get in medical school.

It'd be— I feel like you would do a great job with it. Um, I, I don't know why they don't do that. They still have the money for it, so.

Well, I think I know why, but I think that's the topic of another discussion.

Probably, probably.

Anyway, oh, go ahead.

Yeah, I was going to say, Brett, we want to, on behalf of our listeners, sort of Inside Out, we want to thank you for taking the time to join us today, for sharing your experiences and your insights. They will resonate with so many, uh, individuals out there. Jim Bennett, thank you again for your insights and, and your, uh, your passion there. Uh, so folks, uh, uh, listening, uh, grateful that you joined us, uh, on this episode. Uh, hope you, uh, uh, get get a lot from it. I certainly did. And as I say, well, that's all folks. Uh, that's it for the podcast. Uh, please join Jim and I next time on Inside Out, where we will look forward to more lively and robust discussions about the Mormon Church and faith. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Brett.

Thank you, Ian.

Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Ian.