A Conversation with Bruce Butcher

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the bearded Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I'm quite hairy bearded today. I, I've, yeah, I, I, I'll just leave the Adams.

I, I was trying to think of something that could compliment you and I just thought I have a whole lot of beard envy because I love having a beard, but I can't have one while I'm in the choir. So I, that was an expression of jealousy as well as a compliment.

Well, that's very kind of you. Yeah, sure. My beard is a bit distinguished because I've actually got some gray in it. So I'm kind of seasoned, as they would say.

Seasoned, as they would say. Well, I am really excited because we've got, we've got a guest here that is, I would classify him as the guy who has been kindest to him, to us since the Inside Out podcast has launched. Every time we post an episode, he is there with a constructive and positive and kind comment. He has sent us ice cream money, for which I am very grateful. He has also sent us— I don't have it here, it isn't visual, so it doesn't matter to the people who are listening, but he made these beautiful little I guess bookends might be the best way to describe them, or plaques that talk about this being the only true and living podcast on the face of the earth. So it's just, it's just delightful. Every time his name comes up in our feed, it always makes me smile. And I've been looking forward to the chance to actually meet our next guest. And this is the opportunity. Ladies and gentlemen, we welcome Bruce Butcher to the Inside Out Podcast. Bruce, how are you?

I am doing very well, and I'm ecstatic to be on the Inside Out Podcast. Like we discussed earlier, I just hope I don't screw it up. Grateful to be here.

Oh, well, I don't know that there's any way that you could screw this up. Uh, Ian and I have tried very hard to screw this up in any possible way.

Shoo.

And so far, I think— well, I guess we did screw up when, you know, we've done a couple podcasts without pressing record. That, uh, that, that has been, I think, a way to screw this up. But Bruce, just by way of introduction, can you, uh, give the audience a little bit of your background and, and where you're coming from in terms of this discussion?

Sure. Um, one of your previous guests, uh, Clayton Settle, he, he gave his background, and, and I could have checked 9 out of the 10 boxes that, that he checked. Um, it was kind of, it was kind of fun listening to him. He's a, he's a great fellow. Uh, I'm born and raised in the church. And, uh, my, both of my parents were converts of, of sorts. They, they're both from Utah, but they, uh, none of their family, um, went to church, but both of them were the only ones to come to church out of both of their families. And, uh, my dad went on a mission and he was a bishop. And my mom was a wonderful woman who would occasionally go to other religions while my dad was a bishop, which made my dad kind of smile and tilt his head sideways. But my mom was her own person and she was faithful LDS, but she also saw the value in visiting other religions and making friends with, with other people. At the time, it was a little bit frowned upon by some of the more orthodox members, but she was a wonderful woman. Uh, 9 children. I have 4 brothers and 4 sisters, and, um, 7 of the 9 are, are still around. And, um, All but one of my brothers and sisters are members of the church. My sister Helen had her name removed. And, um, it's, it's super interesting to be friends with my sister Helen because she is probably the most spiritual of any of us and she's the one going to the park, handing out things to the homeless. She's the best version of a Christian that I can imagine, but she didn't see things the way that we saw them growing up. She's a wonderful, wonderful person. I went on a mission to São Paulo, Brazil from '86 to '88, so I was pretty close to Ian and Jim on the timeline. Yeah. I felt very blessed to be able to do that because Brazil is a, it would be probably the easiest mission out there in terms of everybody is already pretty much Christian and the Brazilian people are so welcoming. They just, You know, come on in. Do you want some juice? Do you want some food? And then it was up to us to distinguish if they really had interest in the church or not. But they were just so wonderful. It was a, um, I understood it as, as the highest baptizing mission in the world at the time. Um, our baptisms were, um, for the first mission president, President Steuer, they were about 780 a month. And then when President Day took over a year into my mission, he asked us, "Are you doing the new member discussions with your new members?" And we said, "No." And he says, "Well, you better start." And then the mission, the baptisms were cut in half immediately. And because we were spending more time trying to integrate the members and give them a little more time with us and with the church. It was wonderful, absolutely wonderful mission, wonderful experience. So, so thrilled that I could have that. Was it easy? No, not at all. I cried for the first 3 months because I couldn't communicate with anybody. I, I knew the words, I knew the vocabulary, I just couldn't understand a thing anybody said. They spoke too fast. It was a wonderful experience. And, um, my, uh, two of my brothers also served missions in Brazil. And then one, one, um, of my brothers went into the service and he says, had I gone on a mission, I'm pretty sure I know where I would have gone. But, uh, we, uh, we have a a pretty good bond because, uh, of going to the same country, and we can speak a little Portuguese still and whatnot. I came home, and within, uh, 6 months, I was married to my wife, who I upgraded. She's much more intelligent than I am and a better person than I am, and, uh, we have 3 children. 2 of our children are still with us, and, uh, we raised— we raised them in the church, and, um, they're the best kids anybody could ever have. Um, they don't have any interest in the church. And I feel like that's okay. I feel like they're good with God. And they're certainly good with me. If there's one thing I want to say to my kids, if they ever listen to this, is in Ian's words, you are easily enough for God.

So that's very lovely. I'm sorry. I just, I am very moved by how you're describing this. I can't imagine, uh, your children, uh, could have a better father. I, I hope they appreciate you for—

well, they're, they're pretty good to me. Um, I'm, I'm here in this basement. You can see I'm in the basement. Um, And when my oldest, uh, son Devin was 13 years old, he took me down here in the basement and he, and he looked at me in all sincerity and, and he says, Dad, I don't believe it. I don't believe any of it. I don't believe in Joseph Smith. I don't believe the things that you, you believe. And the thing that came to my mind immediately was, was the part of the Book of Mormon where it says we do not punish a man because of his beliefs. And from that point, you know, well, first of all, I started off by saying, well, the church, that's fine, Devin, but I can prove to you there's a God. There's so much proof I can just prove to you. And he says, I'm not interested, Dad. But he's a very spiritual person as well. An amazing, amazing person, as is my daughter Alyssa, who is not affiliated with the church anymore as well. But amazing, amazing children, and I couldn't be happier with them. Um, I'm a grocery store worker. That's what I do. That's my That's my profession. It's very, it's very technical, kind of like Ian's job of being a scientist and an engineer. I, I put cans of corn on the shelf for a living. It's very technical.

I think nothing wrong with that at all.

Nobody, not everybody can do that job. It's very, it's very technical, but I've, I've been blessed, uh, to always have a paycheck and, and I've been grateful for that part of it and And I've made enough to cover the basic bills. So that's been good.

So without—

I don't want to like commandeer Inside Out Podcast.

You're not commandeering anything. We've invited you on because we want to hear your story. I got an email, Ian, I haven't forwarded this to you, but we got some fan mail from a guy who said, hey, next time you have, I think it was Greg Prince on, could you and Ian just not talk so much?

Well, and if I had my way, your podcast would be 5 hours. So I don't share that. I got plenty of yard work I can do while I listen, but Anyhow, so tomorrow will mark 15 months, a year and 3 months since I got the call at my job when my wife called me and she said, she said, Bruce, Taylor's not moving. And, um, and then a police officer picked up the phone and says, he says, I'm not going to tell you anything, Bruce, but just come be with your family. And, um, So I, uh, so I took the hour drive home and, and, um, I was pretty sure what I was going to walk into. And, uh, Taylor had, um, taken his life and he was in his room and, and, uh, Tanya, my wife, found, found him there. It wasn't a pretty sight. Um, there's a, there's a, a number of reasons that I would like to share this story. Um, the Well, first of all, uh, Taylor was 18 years old and he had graduated from high school 3 weeks previous, uh, to passing. And he was an honor, honor student. And, uh, there's not a more pure kind, benevolent person. Really, I think anyone that knew him would agree to that. And unfortunately, the person in charge of his welfare, me, I didn't see it. I wouldn't see it. I wouldn't see the pain that he was going through. Uh, looking back, I have a lot more insight now, but I, I blame myself for a lot of that. And I know good people throughout the world would be, oh, you don't blame yourself. And my response to that would be, I'm his caretaker. I absolutely blame myself. In so many ways. But anyhow, I believe that he's out of pain, out of discomfort. And if someone were to ask me, would you bring him back today in pain, in horrific pain and distress? I don't think any loving parent would. But I do believe, I do believe he's in a better place, and I do believe that he is right. He is absolutely right with God. Part of Well, let me just backtrack just a little bit. The night that I came home to my family with Taylor gone, everybody was in a lot of tears and grieving. And My wife mentioned something about our, our religion and our church and how we have been taught because me and my wife are in our, our 50s, our, I'm 58 and she's 56. But, um, she brought that up and I just shut it down in 5 seconds. She said, She said, he committed a horrible sin.

Oh boy.

And I said, stop it. I says, that's not how the church views it today. But the fact that we had been taught that, I, I feel very bad for, I feel very bad for any, any parent that has been taught that doctrine, which I do not believe that doctrine. I don't believe it at all. And, but it's in the books. Spencer Kimball in his teachings. And then there's something even There's something even harder, more hardcore, I guess you could call it, which was a message by the First Presidency. And this is part of the First Presidency message. They said, it is a crime of self-murder. Suicide should be made I don't know if I'm saying this word right, odious, should be made odious among the people of God. It should be emphasized as a deadly sin, and no undue feelings of tenderness towards the unfortunate dead or sympathy towards the living bereaved should prevent us denouncing it as a crime against God and humanity, against the Creator and the creature. I don't know what else to say, but that's pretty ugly. So my response to that, part of a response that I have to that, I wrote down, and I, I wrote down, if a church authority speaks anything but mercy, love, and compassion at the funeral of one who died by suicide and brings up any policy, doctrine, or opinion about the punitive nature or justice of God, or how very displeased God is with that child's decision to end their life, I consider that speaker's words to be cruel, thoughtless, tasteless, and unkind. That's my response. Um, it's my opinion that my son Taylor, he showed amazing courage sticking around as long as he did, because looking back, I now realize the pain that he was in. I also think that as courageous as he was for sticking around as long as he did, it was equally courageous to leave. He stuck it out as long as he could. I already talked a little bit about how, what a pure soul he was and is. And, um, just about every night we would, we would have a family prayer. And if I wasn't there, he and his mom would pray. But every single time he prayed, he, he said, Please bless the sick and the sad, and please help us to be the best versions of ourselves. Um, I'm almost, I'm almost done with this, this part of the podcast. I, I, uh, I appreciate you hanging in there with me for this. Um, I've In the last, um, 15 months, I've experienced 3 different things. The, the first, uh, came within a day or 2 of Taylor's passing. Um, you both know what it is to love a child. I, I absolutely know that you know. Um, you, you feel it when the child is born. You feel it as you watch them progress. You feel it when you spend time together. You just feel it all the time, that love. Um, when he passed, my pain was so severe that I had a much greater understanding because of that pain of what it is to love a child. It's hard for me to even explain it, but it hurts so bad that I was like, I did not realize, but I loved him that powerfully. I always knew the love of a parent to a child, but it was much more powerful than I even realized. And then it was almost like a brick hit me in the head. It was, it was a powerful feeling that came to me that, well, now you know how much God loves you and all of his children. And since you know that, Bruce, do you really believe that God will separate himself ever from his children?

Ever?

I do not. There was a time when I listened to certain authorities, you know, well, you Well, you gotta do X, Y, and Z, and A, B, and C, or you're gonna be separated from God. Now, I'll tell you who won't put up with that. Heavenly Mother. She will not put up with that. She will say to Elohim, you go get him. You go get her. You go. You get them, you bring them home. And I don't think that she would need to say that. But we're all coming home. If there's one message I want to say tonight, we're all going home. For our sins, will we suffer? I believe so. For any pain that we have caused others, Will we suffer for that? I believe so. I think we'll suffer because we'll realize what we did. We're all going home. Um, I don't know if any other parents, um, would be interested in, in this, but, um, for about a minute, This was maybe a year ago or maybe a little less than a year ago. For about a minute, I don't know if this was a gift from God or the Holy Ghost, or I really don't know what it was, but I, I really am very sure that I felt what Taylor felt when he passed away. I really believe I did feel it. And I believe it was some sort of a blessing for me. Um, did it mean that God was hoping that Taylor would come home at that time? I don't, I don't know. I think probably not. But it's, but the way that that felt, and I believe truly that I do, I did feel what he was feeling. It was an extremely normal step to take. Um, so that's one thing I, I learned. And then another thing that I learned, and this was probably 3 or 4 months ago, is for, for no other reason that I could think of, I became mentally and physically ill for about 2 hours. And it was, it wasn't a stomachache, it wasn't a headache, it wasn't chest pains, it wasn't body aches, it was none of those things. But it came and went in 2 hours. And I seemed to feel like that was another gift that I was given, to know what he was feeling all the time. And for somebody to suffer through feeling that all the time, that person would have to think, is this what life is? Because You know, I love my parents, I love my brother and sister, I love my best friend, but if I gotta feel like this all the time, I gotta go, I gotta go. So I consider that a gift. I'm almost done here with this part. The grieving, I, um, I didn't, I didn't put anything on my social media about his passing. I, I didn't, I didn't want to deal with the reactions. I don't want any sympathy. Sympathy doesn't help anyway. Um, But, uh, so I put on my happy face when I go to work and, and it's not really a fake happy face. I, I enjoy seeing the people that I work with and the customers and whatnot. Um, but I'm, I'm definitely still grieving and I, I'm pretty sure it will be lifelong. I, I'm guessing it will probably get easier as the years pass. Um, I know a whole lot of, uh, people that have lost their children. And, and for somebody to say, well, it takes a year, well, it takes 2 years, well, it takes 3 years. I, I say, I say no. There are so many that, uh, are suffering a decade, a decade and a half, or even more. But I don't know if this will help anybody, but when I get into my car, it's when I grieve because nobody can hear me. And for the most part, nobody's looking at me. Everybody's focused on the road. Um, when I get into my car and I start having thoughts about my son, I cry like a toddler that's lost and can't find his mom or his dad. That's the way the crying sounds. It's, um, it's, I've never cried that way before. I didn't cry that way when my dad passed or my sister passed. For my mom, I, I definitely cried, but I did not cry the same way. It is a different cry. It's a different experience. Um, I am so embarrassed that I ever tried to offer words of comfort to friends who have lost a child. I'm very embarrassed that I ever tried. By saying things like, oh, death is so hard. It's, it's not the same. It's not even close to the same. It's, it's not, losing a child and losing anyone else, I, in my opinion, shouldn't even be put in the same category. It's, it's just, it's just not the same. Um, and then the other thing, I don't know if anybody would be interested to know is, that about 3 or 4 or 5 times a month when I'm driving, and I have about a 45-minute to an hour commute to work. 3 or 4 or 5 times a month, I scream. It's a shrilling, horrible scream. And the only thing I could describe it as is if you've ever watched a Civil War movie or when, when somebody has received such a horrible wound that they have to take a saw and saw somebody's leg off and that person is biting down on a stick and they're, and they're screaming. That's, the scream that happens. And I really don't plan on it. I don't see it coming. But it happens when you realize that your child is gone and it's gonna be probably a long time to to find your child again. I don't know if you even want this on your podcast, but, but I hope that it could help one person. Um, that's all I have to say about that. Um, it's a It's a hell of a ride. I don't— zero stars, don't recommend. Um, but I did, like I said, I did learn. I did learn for myself in my heart. I have a testimony of it, how much God loves every single one of us, every, every single one, the bad ones, the good ones. We're all going home.

Bruce, I can't thank you enough for being vulnerable enough to share that, not just with us, but with also with our listeners. I mean, I cannot imagine anything, uh, that I fear more than losing a child. I just can't imagine anything that would be more devastating. And, and to listen to you, and my, my heart just breaks for you. I, I don't have— there are no words of comfort. There are, there are no easy answers to that. But the, the, the thing that you keep saying about we're all going home really, really resonates with me. And that's really where I have landed on so many things. I had a conversation with my mother who is very concerned. She's got— I'm one of 6 children and she has 20 grandchildren. And, uh, some are still in the church, but a good number are not. And she is terrified that they're, they're lost, that now that they're out of the church, they're lost. And I said to her, uh, I, I think I was channeling Bruce Butcher to some degree. And I said, Mom, is there anything any of your children could do that would have you cut them off forever and never ever reconcile with them? And she said, of course not. And I said, same with me. There's absolutely nothing. I have to believe that our Heavenly Parents are at least as good as we are. And on the idea that at some point in eternity they just sort of give up on and stay separated from us forever. That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. And so, uh, my question to you, and, and please feel free to answer or not answer to the extent to which you're comfortable, because I don't want you to feel like you have any obligation to share anything more than you already have shared. Um, but my question to you is, has your faith in the church been helpful to you in this process, or has it not? I, I, has it? Because I can't imagine anything sort of alleviating the intensity of that kind of grief. Uh, has the church been helpful? Has the church been a hindrance?

Um, yeah, where does it come down for you? It's, it's a, it's a, it's an excellent question. Um, I have, um, feelings of frustration for, um, some of the doctrines that I, that I mentioned. I have, I have frustration for, um, a General Authority or a bishop or a stake president or whoever it is that wants to get up and rub salt in a very, very, very tender wound for a mother or a father to take away any of their hope. I feel much frustration for that. I also believe in forgiveness. I believe I need to forgive those people. I believe that they deserve all the forgiveness that I want for myself. Um, absolutely my upbringing in the, in the church. Uh, I, I'm definitely a cafeteria Latter-day Saint. I, You know, just this one doctrine right here proves that I'm a cafeteria Latter-day Saint. I pick and choose what I will bring into my heart as a doctrine. That one's a no, you know. But absolutely, without a doubt, being a member of the Church and And just being Christian in general, having studied the Bible, the Book of Mormon has some pretty good things to say. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon has some kind of mean things to say too, when it comes to, if you don't do it in this life, there's no hope. Well, there is hope. The Spirit whispers to me very loudly, there's all the hope in the world. But yes, it's been wonderful. I mentioned to Ian when he had a type of out-of-body experience, I mentioned to him how important it was to me personally because, you know, the thought, the thought, it's a very ugly thought and I feel for people that, um, you know, don't have much religion in their life or belief or whatever you want to call it. But I, I feel for them if, if they lose a loved one and think maybe that was it, maybe that was the end. But Ian is, especially because he had no agenda, because he's, you know, at least for now, he's I have my hopes about Ian, but at least for now, he's out of the church. But for him to be out of the church and have that wonderful spiritual experience, it meant the world to me as I was grieving because it gave me hope that yes, there is an afterlife. Yes, family are there waiting for us. Yes, it's It is real. And I appreciated that so much that I can't even, to be honest with you, I can't express. It's, you know, it's anything that gives hope, you know, anything that gives hope to the to the grieving is, is, uh, is such a blessing.

I, uh, uh, wrestled, uh, with whether or not I should share that experience, Bruce, because it was a very personal and very private experience for me. Um, I struggled through having that conversation and sharing those feelings and thoughts, but the thing I think that encouraged me was, uh, probably the same thing that's motivating you was to help others, help someone else who's perhaps got questions or doubts, like, you know, going through some stage in their life where they've lost a loved one or they're wondering what's, um, you know, if they're gonna see a loved one again. Um, as I listened to you, I, I felt And I'm sure Jim has as well, an extraordinary spirit on this podcast. We've not met before. We're seeing each other by video. We haven't met in person, but your experience is, uh, both, um, in some ways, uh, um, a blessing because of what it's shown you and what's been revealed to you through this, these very difficult and profound experiences that you had. I think your courage, what Jim Bennett said earlier, I think to come on and to share this level of vulnerability shows extraordinary courage and strength, which is just amazing. We said at the very beginning before we started recording that at some point in these conversations, across all the different conversations we have,, and perhaps more especially on this one than, than, than many others. Um, one of us, and, and, and it's you here today, Bruce, will share an experience that will have an impact, profound impact on, on, uh, even a small impact on anyone who's listening. And I, with the feeling that I've got right now and the spirit that I feel, and there's definitely a, uh, a feeling here, uh, I don't doubt for one second that your experiences will have helped and will help someone who's listening to this. Just like, you know, my experience I've shared with you that helped you, as I've listened to others' experience, including Jim Bennett's experience, that helped me profoundly. Uh, and that's what we're here— we're all about— it's all about helping each other. You talk about, you know, come home, and, um, you, you talk about everyone is important. Um, each soul is precious. And it's true, we, we, we're all precious to our Heavenly Father. And he wants us back and he loves us and he wants us to help each other in any way that we can. So your courage is, is just extraordinary. Um, the other thing I wanna say is that I, I really believe, uh, from what I'm hearing and feeling is that you are meant to be here tonight having this conversation at this time. I believe that sincerely. Uh, I really do because I think this is going to be, uh, I think this could help you. Jim Bennett and I have, uh, learning a great deal from this experience. I know many of our listeners will feel the same way. So I know this is very difficult to share your feelings, but I believe, uh, this is meant to be. This conversation is meant to happen. Um, the other thing I wanna say is that, um, Uh, there's a, a talk that Elder Uchtdorf gave, uh, I think it was back in 2013. Um, it's titled, uh, Come Join Us. And for me, that was one of the most profound talks ever given in the General Conference. Because in that talk, Elder Uchtdorf reveals something that we perhaps haven't seen or heard much before. And I, I've got the talk here. I just wanna you share some of it for me. Um, he talks about, um, the questions that we have about life, about doctrine, um, and about, um, all kinds of things, you know, to do with the church and church history. And he says here in the section titled— in the section titled Unanswered Questions, he says, some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of church history along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question. Sometimes questions arise because we simply don't have all the information, and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire, when the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn't make sense to us before will be resolved. To our satisfaction. Sometimes there is a difference of opinion as to what the facts really mean. A question that creates doubt in some can, after careful investigation, can build faith in others. He goes on to say this, Bruce. He says, mistakes of imperfect people. And he says here, and to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. Made mistakes. Uh, there had been things said and done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. And he, he says here also, I suppose the church will be perfect only if it run by perfect beings. God is perfect, his doctrine is pure, but he works through us as imperfect children, and imperfect people make mistakes. So when I listen to that and I listen to your experience and I contrast that with my own experience and perhaps Jim's doing the same. I, I think the, um, the best, uh, learning experiences are the ones that we have with ourselves and directly with God. No one knows us as well as God does personally. And those experiences that are, uh, that happen to us in our lives, um, no one really understands what that's like, only us. Only you know what you've gone through, Bruce. Uh, only I really know what I've gone through. Uh, and Jim's the same, but the one that knows equally, I believe, uh, to the extent that we don't, and, and probably more actually, I would say more, is our Heavenly Father who knows us more than we know ourselves. He knows our pain and our suffering, our joys and our successes. And for whatever reason, we, we might not know, we have these experiences and sometimes we know why and sometimes we don't., but I believe in the end it will all come right and it will all make sense. And also that, uh, talk as well speaks to that the church leaders make mistakes. They say things wrong, they do things wrong. There's certain things in the church that frankly are just plain, shall we say, not right. They don't feel right, they don't sit right. I believe that, uh, if, if someone, um, goes early, you know, uh, people who go beyond the time, before the time rather, um, that they are, they go to a good place and that they are into a place of peace and, and like the scriptures teach, they're no longer suffering. They're suffering here on this, in this world, but God, uh, I think only allows that so much. And then there's a time where a time comes where they invited home through wherever means, uh, that happens. It happens in different ways at different times for, you know, uh, lots of different reasons. Uh, but I believe that, um, in the end, this love that we have for our family, for our children, you know, for our husbands and wives transcends the, uh, you know, the, uh, the barriers of death and lives on, and we can be with our loved ones, forever. I believe that. I, I had that small glimpse, that honor and privilege to have a, just a tiny step. I call it a step. Like, it was just a brief, uh, near-death experience. Others have gone far beyond that, uh, as you probably have read and heard. Mine wasn't like that. It was just a, a step into, uh, into the eternities that I saw. And felt, more importantly, some profound things. And so I, I, I believe that, uh, you know, Taylor and, and, and other, others who we know who've gone, um, before the time, uh, and I say before the time, sometimes the time to go is the right time. Sometimes it's not before the time. Sometimes that's the time to go. And, uh, I've lost loved ones who I believe now, at the time I didn't, but now I believe now that was the time for them to depart this world because the pain and suffering was, was too much. And so I, I think, and I think those things that we all, we experience ourselves, personal, private experiences are the great teachers. I, I can't think we can get this from a book. We can't get this, uh, uh, to that extent from a talk and we can't, uh, get it from anyone else's experience. Only we know what we've and only we can feel that and communicate that. Uh, and sometimes we can't communicate that. Sometimes we have to, um, try to make sense of it, and sometimes it doesn't make sense. Um, but in the end, I believe it, uh, you know, I believe the answers, um, uh, do come in the end. So I just want to, uh, say how grateful I am to you for all having the courage to come on here and to share this, these experiences. And I, I must believe it will help others. And, and you knowing that, I think helps. You know, when you shared your thoughts about how I shared my experience, I, I can't tell you how that makes me feel. Uh, the fact that I was so close to not sharing that experience, so close, and that I went ahead and did it and, and then someone has been helped and that means a great deal to me. And I know many will be helped from, from your, uh, feelings and thoughts here today, Bruce. So thank you for being such an amazing, uh, individual. You're clearly a wonderful father and husband and you devoted, uh, father and just express our love and appreciation to you for, for the, for the wonderful man that you are.

Thank you for those thoughts. That's very beautiful. Thank you.

Well, so Bruce, how would you like to spend the rest of this episode?

Well, since you asked, we can turn a corner into something a little more um, less depressing, I guess, or, or whatever adjective you want to call that. I have a mental list, but I jotted down a few things of this list. My list has about 1,500 things on it that I would do differently if I was in charge of the church.

Um, Bruce Butcher's Roadmap for Improving Mormonism.

Well, and I'm not the brightest light bulb, or I'm not all that bright, to be honest with you, but I do have an oversized heart. And so I wanted to bring up a couple of things from my list, my if I were in charge list, and I know I'll never be, but I can dream and I can wish. Um, the first thing that I would like to bring up is, if I were in charge, for every $50 million temple that the church builds, I would like the church to build a $50 million micro housing complex for the homeless slash mentally ill. And I would, I would love it if the church would have a joint task force with any other religion that wanted to join to maintain it and to, to be the, the force of people that run it and distribute the, the housing and, and maybe some food if, if, uh, that is in the program. But I, you know, because of Jim Bennett's tithing, Ian Bennett's tithing, my tithing, and I have to give credit for some smart investing, the church has amazing resources. We, we could do this. We could do it. For every temple built, we could build a microhousing unit for the homeless. And oh my goodness, what a PR thing that might be. In addition to the number one reason, which would be to eliminate some suffering. Um, now without sounding critical, um, I wrote this down and I apologize if it sounds critical. I don't want it to be critical. But I wrote down, do we think Christ is happy with a $400,000 chandelier when that money could possibly create clean water for a village? Again, don't want to be critical. I'm just throwing out a thought. Didn't Christ tell a rich man to sell all he had and give it to the poor? Maybe we could do a little better with our resources and maybe do a $20,000 chandelier. And, and, you know, and I know the church does a lot of wonderful things, a lot of humanitarian. I know that, but I would like to see more. Here's Here's another, here's another thing from my list, and I'm not boasting my incredible faith that I've always paid my tithing. I've, I'm in the habit of paying. I've never been unemployed. I've always paid tithing. But so many millions of people can't bring themselves to do it. They are not unfaithful people. They are not— they are not sinners. They're— they just can't bring themselves to pay tithing. And yet We're not allowing them to go into the temple and be sealed to their families. Sorry, you don't pay your tithe. So one of my, if I were in charge, things is it says take tithing off the must-do list to get into the temple. The temple should be for everyone. I'm, I'm grateful to pay mine. I, some, somebody once said, why do we pay tithing? Because God wants you to learn to be a giver. And I, I would say that that's a, that's a wonderful thing to be able to do, to, um, it's a wonderful thing to learn to be a giver, not to have such a tight hold on your wallet that you just don't want to share with anyone. Anyway, I'm open to commentary about my two things on the two things out of 1500 that what would you do if you were in charge?

Those are similar to some of the things that I've talked about with Ian here. The idea. So when I'm president of the church, one of the things that I'm going to do, I don't anticipate this coming up anytime soon, but once, once I am sustained as a prophet, seer, and revelator, I should say if, I'm framing this as when, but it's very much an if and it's not going to happen. But if I were to be sustained prophet seer and revelator, one of the things that has always struck me is the fact that when you go through the temple and you go to the prayer circle and there are names on the prayer list, they are all put, they're together and you say a prayer for all of them at once. So what were to happen if We were once a week, the president of the church were to go through the temple and perform temple ordinances on behalf of everybody on a list. And so you just have one person standing proxy for thousands, maybe millions of people and free up that time and free up that space to use those big, beautiful buildings. To do the kinds of things that you're talking about. All of a sudden, we would have homeless shelters, we would have free medical clinics, we would have, you know, whatever it is, and we would have them state-of-the-art and beautiful. To me, that just strikes me, and we wouldn't have to compromise or sacrifice any of the temple ordinances that we believe are so important. And we would still be binding our families together and people would still continue to do the family history work and all of that. But I just, I've just got all these ideas and I keep waiting for Russell Nelson or Dallin Oaks to give me a call to tell me, you know, and it just doesn't seem to be happening. Ian, what's at the top of your list?

Oh, I just want to say, Bruce, your list there is just phenomenal. It just makes so much logic, you know, to me, right? Is Jim, I like your idea they're all equally intelligent, uh, you know, decisions that you make if you're the prophet. And I, I don't know why the prophet's not calling you. I think maybe he's got the wrong number or something, but he should definitely call you. Mine would be to very, very much along the lines that you guys are talking about. Um, the, the phenomenal resources that the church has got, uh, including, uh, but not limited to the 150,000 missionary force that the church has, or thereabouts. I'd stop knocking on doors, stop doing social media so much, and focusing on, um, you know, convert baptisms and, you know, taking, take, you know, getting people converted to join the church and, and how, you know, the priority that is, and then get them involved in, uh, the projects that Bruce is speaking about. You know, these microhousing, homeless shelters, helping people who are the most vulnerable, disadvantaged, excluded in society, and get the missionary force to get involved, uh, in local projects with other agencies, other charities, other churches, and build and lead where it can with its resources that it has, a, a, an absolute, uh, powerhouse program of services that would actually directly help, as I say, the most vulnerable, disadvantaged, and excluded in society, regardless of what faith that they would, you know, they, uh, they bring. I like the idea of removing that question on the, from the 15 years, no questions about tithing. I think temple is for everybody. I would also, uh, strongly encourage the church to, um, disavow the teaching of polygamy and the teaching of the ban on the race you know, regards to the blacks in the priesthood, to even come out and say they made a mistake. It was a mistake, and to apologize for that. And also for the church to be much more inclusive and tolerant and kinder, but inclusive in terms of real inclusion for LGBTQ individuals, and to extend blessings and callings to those individuals. I guess the final thing I would do— well, actually, it's not a final thing, lots of things lots more things I would do. I would definitely extend the invitation to women to serve in leadership positions in the church, to be a true equal contributor in every way, and not to be beholden to men in terms of the, you know, everything, every decision that is made has to go through a man kind of thing. So I think putting women in leadership positions, putting them, that sounds That's not right, is it? That's another man thing, isn't it? Like me, a man saying, let's put women here. But, you know, women having the opportunity to lead and to— at every level of the church. So in addition to what you're saying, and you've probably got lots more ideas as well, I'm sure you do, they're the things that I would do if I was called into the First Presidency. A year from me being called in the Third Presidency, you wouldn't recognize the church in a year. It would be completely, completely overhauled. Um, yeah, it would be a different organization if I was in charge.

I, I love, I love those thoughts. Um, before I, before I forget, I, I think we're probably close to wrapping up, aren't we? Is it?

Yeah, a few minutes. We, we should close.

Yep. I just wanted to give a couple thoughts about why I remain in the LDS Church as a cafeteria Latter-day Saint, meaning I don't agree with every single thing the Church does. That's all that means to me. I'm very pleased to be a member of the Church. Um, but ultimately, uh, I, I completely agree with those who cannot bring themselves to stay. There is a multitude of reasons and every single one of those multitude would be enough on, on its own. And, and I have family and friends who, who have left the church and All I can say to them is, God bless you. I get it. But the reason that I stay is similar to Jim Bennett's experience. I think he said he had the experience in a park. Um, where was it a park where you felt?

It wasn't, it was, it was in a sort of a vacant area near my house where I walk my dog.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Um, I, I haven't had an experience that powerful, but I've had some smaller experiences that say to me, this, this is a good place for you to be. And there is some truth here. Um, now, having said that, I fully acknowledge a Catholic who has the same experience, a Baptist, a Lutheran, a Buddhist, a Hindu. I fully acknowledge that there are multitudes of people that have those same experiences in their religion, and I respect that, and I think that they should follow their conscience. And, um, but I've, I've had little tiny pricks in my heart that say, yes, stick around. Um, and, and that's, that's great. Another, another thought is that I used to believe the Quorum of the Twelve and First Presidency all had Jesus's cell phone number. It's honestly how I believed for decades of my life. And, um, today my belief is God gently guides his church, very gently, and he intervenes in a minimal fashion, occasionally in a bigger way, but for the most part, it's a very gentle guidance. So that, that's just, uh, That's just my thought there, but I'm grateful for all the church has ever done for me. I have humongous hopes for my children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren and everybody's children and grandchildren, great-grandchildren who are in the church. I have great hopes for their leadership to bring all of the things that the church needs to be to fruition. And I, I have a great hope that it will happen. And unfortunately, it's, it's, it's a slow process, but I, I do believe it'll, it will happen eventually.

Well, Bruce, I, I can't thank you enough for being here with us. And, uh, I, I have been touched. Uh, I have been given a great deal to think about and to ponder, but I have also, uh, just been moved by your simple but profound faith and sort of just, you just exude kindness. I mean, this, it is just so inspiring just to be here with you and to And to have you share so much of your personal story and, and your personal struggles, um, whether or not they help anybody else who's listening, just know that they have already helped me. And I am really grateful for that. And I'm very grateful, uh, that you have, have shared this with us. Um, Ian, do you have any final thoughts?

Briefly, Bruce, I wanna thank you for the man that you are, the courage that you, and the vulnerability that you bring. And I just wanna say that I felt an extraordinary spirit in our conversation, and I know that, uh, those listening, uh, may well feel the same spirit as well. So I wanna thank you for taking the time to share your, you know, innermost personal thoughts and experiences, and it's, it's a real honor to to meet with you, and we express our love and appreciation to you.

Thank you so much. You're both doing God's work. I'm convinced of it. I'm absolutely convinced.

Well, if I wasn't convinced of it, if Bruce Pritchard thinks we're doing God's work, then I am convinced.

So, and the only thing I would, and one thing I would add to the changes, if I was a prophet, I would make it conditional that everybody in the church speaks with a British accent.

Oh, well, Bruce, you and I are going to have to go form our own church, I think.

Yes, with a Sean Connery twang.

Yeah, a little bit of brevity there, but Bruce, thank you.

You've been a wonderful person.

God bless you, Ian. God bless you, Jim. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. Thank you. God bless you.

Thank you, Bruce. God bless you. Thank you, Ian.

Thank you, Jim.

Thank you to everyone who is listening. Uh, we appreciate you more than you know, and we are grateful that you shared this time with us. And we look forward to speaking with you again next week on the next episode of Inside Out.