A Conversation with Chris Robison

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. You know who I am. I'm Ian and my podcast partner and equal is the indispensable Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello, Ian. How are you?

I'm doing really well. It's been a busy week, but a good week. Uh, how's your week been? You've been in Brazil and you've come back. Are you settled back now after your experience in Brazil?

Well, I'm, I'm a lone man in the Garden of Eden at the moment. My wife and, uh, 3 of my kids are at Indian Wells watching tennis. But, uh, I'd taken so much time off from Brazil that I didn't think I could go down there. So, right, I'm all by my lonesome.

Well, not at the moment. We're all together because, uh, you and I, uh, we are doing this podcast and we have a very special guest that we would like to introduce to our listeners. And so on Inside Out, which we've been operating now since April 2023, I think, um, long, has it? Yeah, it's been that long. It's, it's gone, uh, it's gone really fast for me. It might have, um, It's like, uh, it's like a marriage, you know, for me it goes really quick, but for my wife it's kind of dragged, maybe.

There you go.

But over the years, since we've been doing the podcast, we have been absolutely honored and privileged to collect some wonderful friends and people who have come onto the podcast and have made comments and, and valuable, uh, thoughts and comments and insights. And so, uh, it's with that in mind that we have this, uh, opportunity to invite and welcome, uh, to the podcast Chris Robison. Chris, welcome to Inside Out.

Thank you for having me. It's great to hear you guys in, in, uh, normal speaking speeds here.

So, okay. I, this is a real honor. We, we, you know, we, uh, hoping to have a wonderful experience with you. I'm sure we will. I hope you can understand my British accent.

Yes, I actually, half the team I work with at work is either in the UK or Ireland, so I'm used to it.

Okay. All right. So you can understand what I'm saying. So without further ado, just a little bit of background. You are one of our wonderful listeners, Jim Bennett and I have read and appreciated very much the comments that you've made and posted onto Inside Out, onto the Facebook page. I understand you listen to Inside Out on a fairly regular basis, from what I understand.

Yeah, I actually just discovered it in the Mormon subreddit years ago, and then I, you know, everybody had their hot takes on that one. I can't remember what episode it was, but decided I'd give it a go and I really like this.

Good, good. I think we're still in a growing period, but hopefully more and more people will know who we are and what we're doing. And again, our goal is to help people. And your comments have been so valuable, Chris. It's been incredibly helpful and you've made some very important, provide some very important insights that have helped a lot of people. So it is a real honor to have you here with us. And, um, and so what we'd like to do is get into this and ask you to give us a little bit about your background in church, you know, growing up. Tell about your experience growing up. Were you born into the church? Um, you know, a little bit about family dynamics, if you're comfortable. Youth, YSA, you know, serving a mission, maybe some leadership callings that you maybe have had. Uh, take us, you know, give us a bit of a tour in terms of your life. And then we'll get into some other items that you and I discussed on a phone call about 10 days ago, because I think some of your insights and experiences are quite, quite profound. So go ahead, you take it from here.

Sounds good. Perfect. Yeah, so I, I am the oldest of 4 kids in my family. I was, I was born while my parents were attending BYU. And, uh, when, after they graduated, my, uh, my dad got a job at Hewlett-Packard. And so we moved to Colorado Springs in 1987 or 1988. And, uh, and so it was just, you know, at that time it was just me and the one of my sisters. And then, and then the other two joined us, you know, years later in, in, in Colorado Springs.

So.

Yeah, we, so we were kind of away from, away from all of our Utah roots and, you know, had to build our life without all that. But it was, I mean, Colorado Springs is great and it's been fascinating to listen to you talk about what you said, Jim, was it Joseph Fielding McConkie was one of your mission presidents? Is that right?

Yes, sir. Yeah.

So his, his brother Mark, I actually grew up in his ward. Oh, so, so we, we grew up under, you know, with the McConkie, you know, and, and Mark, if you've ever met him, he was a tremendous individual along with, you know, his wife Mary Ann. And, you know, much like it seems like a lot of his family, you know, scholars of the church and Joseph Smith. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, we, we did not Uh, we did not get the run-of-the-mill church history lessons because of that. So, uh, you know, every time, you know, Mark, uh, taught about Joseph Smith, it was always, you know, very detailed. We, we heard lots of stories about Joseph Smith. So a lot of this stuff, um, you know, a lot of that, a lot of that history was kind of like with us in our ward growing up. And, uh, I, I must say though, you know, look, looking back, I think the way that, with the way that he approached it was a bit hagiographic, you know. So there was, I don't think we ever, Joseph Smith, let's just say there was never, never a bad thing ever said about Joseph Smith ever. So which, you know, that seems like, yeah, that seems fairly typical from, you know, from the way that church history was taught those early days. Um, so yeah, but I mean, but the thing is like we knew, I mean, we knew about the priesthood ban was there. I mean, polygamy was mentioned. Uh, I just think that the way that it was framed was that, you know, those things were from God and that's just, we accepted that and just never questioned it. And that's, that's just the way it was.

So, so Chris, when you were, as you were growing up and, um, and this is a question for Jim as well, actually, when you were growing up and you, you know, going through youth and, and things. You were taught by these very learned individuals, right? Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, et cetera. You know, it sounds like it was a very traditional orthodox church, which most congregations are, I think, or many of them are. Was there, when you got taught, did you just accept it on face value then that what was being taught, or did you feel at that time that you had questions or doubts back then?

Uh, I mean, you know, well, You know, the way that it is, I mean, the, you just kind of accept it on face value because, you know, I mean, I was so young, so I just assumed that whatever my parents thought was right was right. And, uh, and honestly, the church experience was very positive. So I didn't really have any reason to, to doubt or question anything that was being taught because my, my, my world experience in the church was, was very positive.

So, right, Jim, was that your experience? I mean, did you accept it on face value that, you know, all the way through that whatever said was just, that was it. That was how it was.

Uh, sorta. I mean, I grew up in a household where lots of difficult things were talked about. You know, for instance, when people say they that they were shocked to discover Joseph Smith was a polygamist, I always have to sort of check myself because I can't remember a time when I didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Um, I didn't know all the details of it, obviously, but the hagiography that, Chris, you're talking about is, is not something that was perpetuated in my home growing up, or, you know, even when I was when I was going to school and I was living with my, uh, my aunt and uncle, and I've cited him many times on this podcast, Howard Anderson, who was the stake president in Los Angeles, um, we had really frank discussions about things. And I think if that hadn't been my experience, I don't know if I would still be in the church because, um, I can, you know, I can sort of empathize with the feeling of, okay, this church isn't what anybody told me it was going to be. And because I don't really ever remember an experience where we couldn't talk about those things and talk about them frankly and honestly. But it was always sort of from a faithful perspective. I, you know, they would talk about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, uh, not necessarily in hagiographic terms, but certainly giving them the benefit of the doubt whenever there was a sticky issue. Does that make sense?

You know, it does. In some ways you were inoculated in some ways by having those conversations early on, being aware of the issues. When he did get into some of the detail, it kind of was a bit more palatable then.

Well, yeah, to some degree, except, you know, I did go through that experience at the age of 18 reading The Godmakers. And it was actually quite different. The Godmakers is actually quite different from like the CES Letter or different kinds of criticisms you see now, because it wasn't necessarily just the church is not true. It was the church is satanic. And I just got wrapped up in this idea that, you know, their explanation essentially for the Book of Mormon is that Satan appeared as an angel of light. And that, you know, I mean, that, and now I look back on that and think all of that is kind of a silly approach. And that doesn't seem to be the approach of 21st century critics. But so there was a time when it was, I was sort of wrestling with the idea of it wasn't so much that I was learning things that weren't, um, that, that I didn't know so much as Am I giving them too much of the benefit of the doubt? If this church is true, then shouldn't there not be mistakes? Shouldn't there not be fallible leaders? Shouldn't Joseph not have practiced polygamy, particularly the way that he did? You know, that sort of thing. Shouldn't Brigham Young not have been racist? So it's not that I was discovering that these were the case, it was, oh, I now have a different perspective here that I can see why you would walk away from this because the, you know, it, it's very easy to spin it in a way that, that would tear down faith.

Chris, was that your experience? Did you accept things generally then? Just going back to what you were saying, or was there a, a few points early on growing up, you know, youth? YSA, et cetera, where you had like, um, some issues or concerns about doctrine or policy or historical things?

I mean, you know, I think, I think polygamy always struck me as funny. Um, you know, the, the priesthood ban always struck me as funny, but, but I didn't, I mean, it was, it was just something that was just part of our history. And that was never the focus. You know, it was just that it happened. It was from God. That's the way we explained it. And at the time, that was good enough for me.

And so as you were growing up in the church, it sounds like you were in a traditional Orthodox family, uh, growing up in the church. You got taught, you accepted it generally, maybe a few questions. And then what was your youth YS experience? Was that a pretty positive experience for you in the church?

Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, the, the, um, you know, I think generally school and, you know, and the church experience went together really well. I mean, the, uh, you know, we, I remember, uh, you know, we were in, in Colorado Springs at the time. I think there were like 4 or 5 stakes. Um, and we were, you know, when we moved there, we were in a stake called East Stake and then, um, we, and then they had the, there, there, there was kind of a big, uh, stake realignment. And then we got moved into a, another stake, I think originally called the South Stake, but I think the, I think it was originally, or changed to like the Colorado Springs Stake. I, I can't remember exactly, but that was like the first stake I think ever created in the city of Colorado Springs. And then we ended up going into the first ward ever chart, you know, chartered in Colorado Springs. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, it was, uh, it was very, it was, it was very, uh, I think it was very positive. Um, you know, but then, but then school was full of, uh, of good things. You know, I participated in a lot of like musical, uh, things, you know, different choirs. Uh, my senior year at a barbershop quartet I was in, um, did jazz bands. Um, that was all. And, you know, Uh, and you know, getting into jazz, you know, for me was, was a result of getting into a lot of trouble in my youth. So, uh, kind of, you know, but, but yeah, but, but then in the church, you know, then that, but, you know, I got to be in some leadership positions as youth. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was all, it seemed all fairly straightforward. Um, what was your relationship like with the leaders, your youth leaders growing up?

Was it positive? Were they? Helpful?

Yeah. Yeah. I had, uh, I had very positive, uh, I think I had good experiences with my youth leaders. Um, okay. Yeah.

Good.

And then tell us about, did you, uh, serve a mission? Where did you serve? What was that like? Your mission experience?

Yeah. So the, um, yeah, so I did, I did serve a mission. Um, I went to the South Dakota Rapid City Mission, Spanish speaking. Um, which is weird for people to hear. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was a Spanish speaking people.

Are there in South Dakota?

Uh, so possibly, yeah, sweet people. So my mission at the time was 7 states. So it was all of North and South Dakota and big chunks of Minnesota, Nebraska, Wyoming, uh, and little bits of Iowa and Montana. And so, uh, if surprisingly, I mean, spread throughout all of those states. Are a lot of, um, like immigrant labor concentrations. And so you, I mean, you have meatpacking plants, you know, like John Morrell and, you know, you know, Swift and some of the other ones, and they, they hire a lot of immigrant labor to work there. And so there are whole cities, uh, that are, you know, almost 80 or 90% Latino, um, that we would, we would serve in. So quite, quite a few big pockets there.

Do you know what I find interesting about that, uh, Jim, Chris, is that, um, the church will have a pretty good profile of these different communities, right? You know, like North and South Dakota, you know, there'll be, you know, it'll do all the, uh, number crunching, you know, how many, uh, you know, Spanish-speaking, non-Spanish-speaking. And if there's enough Spanish-speaking people, it's enough to you know, send missionaries to the MTC and teach them Spanish and then send them into these communities. It's, I mean, that's the level of sophistication and structure the church has got globally, not, not just in, in the States, but, you know, around the world. So I think it's pretty intelligent systems, isn't it, to be able to organize the church mission resources around these different communities, different speaking communities, right? Fascinating.

Well, my brother back in the early '80s served Sydney, Australia Spanish-speaking, which we thought was very surprising. But yeah, the church is very savvy when it comes to this sort of thing.

Definitely. And Chris, sharing a bit more on any of your experience on any mission, what was that like? Was it positive? What was the day like? Were there any challenges experienced? How do you deal with, What years are we talking here? And come across any questions that you found difficult to answer, any issues that you experienced in terms of trying to get your head around stuff?

Uh, no, so my, my mission was very formative. I had, I had an incredible set of mission leaders. Um, I know that a lot of people focus on their mission president, but my, uh, my mission president and his wife, uh, served truly side by side in that mission. So my, my mission president was, uh, was Russell Osguthorpe. Um, and he, after you, he eventually became the general Sunday school president, um, for, for a time. Um, but I served '04 to '06. Um, and yeah, it was, and so his wife, his wife Lola was, uh, just, just as energetic and outgoing., as he was, and they would teach together everything. And it was just, it was a wonderful example. You know, his background was, uh, he was a professor at BYU in, in, uh, instructional psychology and technology. So his, it was basically the study of how to teach people. And so he was, he was really good at it and, um, very motivational, uh, but not in like the sports sense. Um, but just, but like very genuine, very loving. Um, but also very like, uh, candid. And he had just, he had that just the perfect mixture of qualities on, on that one. And I learned a lot from him. And so like my, I think 95, I loved 95% of my mission. It was very formative to me, like not a ton of baptisms. I mean, I probably baptized maybe like 10, 15 people. I can't remember. Like my entire time there. You know, it's very spread out, as you can imagine. I mean, uh, I mean, I mean, to kind of give you a, a sense of the size here, I mean, I, um, the North Dakota stake, uh, at the time when I was there, the Fargo, North Dakota stake is half the size that takes up the half of North Dakota, like about a fifth or a fourth of South Dakota, and like a fifth of Minnesota. And so like, like the, like the Bemidji Ward or branch, I can't remember what it was, but, but the Midgee, Minnesota is like almost like an 8-hour drive and that's in the state of North Dakota.

It sounds like our, uh, Jim, our state is the size of Scotland here.

Oh yeah.

Chris, like yours from US border down the road here, like 2.5 hours down where we live to, uh, Clearwater and middle of BC. Which is quite a bit bigger actually than North Dakota. We do everything a lot bigger here than America, apart from Alaska, by the way. So, but our stake is as big as Scotland, and we have an 8-hour drive from the bottom of our stake up to the top. So it sounds like a similar size and scale to what you had in, uh, in North Dakota then.

Yeah. So we, I mean, our mission, when, when our mission president got in, he actually aligned all the zones with the stake boundaries. And so I got to be, I got to be a zone leader in 2 of the zones. So I got to drive all over the zone and then, and then later in my mission, he did, he, he kind of experimented with what he called advanced trainers, missionaries that would basically travel the whole mission and kind of like stay 2 or 3 days with certain companionships and help train them. And so, I mean, my, my companion and I doing that, I think we drove like 6,000 miles in 6 weeks. Um, it was a lot of driving.

So, but do you have any experiences on the mission that was quite profound where it just. You know, I mean, Jim's got many, I've got some things that happen on your mission that absolutely just change your life and things that you perhaps even think about to this day. Could you share an experience with us?

Uh, is there one experience? Um, honestly, I think it was, for me, it was just generally kind of like the companions I got to serve with, a lot of them, and, and like the people I got to meet., that were just, uh, other members of the church as we went around that were just, uh, amazing. Um, like there was, uh, so I, I, one of, one of my first areas in, um, well, my first area in Marshall, Minnesota, uh, that happens to be where the headquarters of the Schwann's Food Company is. And, uh, there was a, there was a member of the branch there that, that was, uh, at the time who was one of the food scientists. And, uh, and they were, uh, they would always have the missionaries over and they were just a wonderful, like the definition of fellowship. These people extended to the missionaries, whatever missionaries were there. And if there was ever a time where the missionaries were not allowed out on whatever holidays or something like that, like they would say, please come over to our house. And so they would, they would just have us over and just, it was just, uh, I have fond memories. Of those, of those families that, that did that for me. In fact, I think they, they made my first Christmas away from home almost like I was still at home, just of how they, how they treated us.

Um, it sounds like your mission was an amazing experience. I mean, at times with Jim Bennett and I on a mission, there were times we wanted to come home. It was, it was hell at times, frankly. There's many times I wanted to go, but we talked about you know, would rather die first. And, you know, Jim Bennett talks about escaping across Russia and going—

which is amazing.

So did you ever feel that? Did the mission ever become so tough where it was just so difficult to manage, or was it fairly, you know, plain sailing for you for the mission? Do you have any, any challenges or any issues? I mean, dealing with some of the questions as well. I know the doctor will go, what years are we talking about, Chris?

Uh, so '04 to '06.

All right, okay. Yeah, in Scotland is a wee baron, is that right? So just a young kid. So, but what are some of the challenges experienced, if any, you know, any mission like doctrine, or just did it ever get so much, it was just so difficult, or was it fairly straightforward?

Uh, I mean, I mean, on the outside it was very straightforward, and then like, you know, there's kind of some personal stuff that we'll kind of get into that kind of colors everything. But in terms of, um, in, in terms of hard things, I mean, I think we ran into, I mean, uh, that area is very predominantly Lutheran. And so we would run into some fairly, um, let's say, uh, crusty Lutheran pastors that were quite, uh, quite prolific and offensive. Um, See what I was like?

Did you say crusty?

Yeah.

Yeah. Jim Bennett, in Scotland they have crusty pasties, don't they?

They have a fair amount of crusty pasties, yes.

But it's a very different crusty pasta. Anyway, I'm having fun. Go ahead, Chris, about the—

but other than that, I mean, like the, I mean, the Latino people were always very nice. I mean, they would never, they would never throw us off their dorp. They would always talk with us. Uh, you're always very, very kind. Um, and, uh, in terms of like, I think, I think probably the hardest, some of the hardest things were just like a lot because, because some of the areas, the population was just so small. Uh, tracking just felt like a waste of time because everybody had already seen us before. And, uh, you know, and, and, and when I, I mean, when my mission president joined, as I recall, he, he said he reduced the complement of the mission because it, to like 110 missionaries, because at some point it was 180 and they were putting 3 companionships in towns of 5,000 people. Uh, and it was just like, you can just make quick work of that in like a month. And then what do you do after that when everybody says no? So, um, yeah. And so in terms of like major opposition, like we really, I don't think we hit something so bad that it was like traumatic.

Wow.

Mind him. Um, can we talk about some of the things that you shared with me on the telephone?

Yeah.

Uh, a few, a week or so ago. Could you, are you still comfortable sharing that? Could you get into that?

Yeah. Yeah.

And this, and this, and this part, I mean, this is, this is what kind of like colors a lot of my interactions with the church privately and just kind of like what builds up kind of to where I'm currently at, uh, today. And so like on the outside, just kind of preface this, like on the outside, you know, if someone were to look at me on the outside and say like, oh, you know, uh, he grew up very Orthodox, very like straight arrow and that kind of stuff. And then just no, nothing, uh, nothing ever went wrong with him or, oh, he would never do this kind of stuff. I mean, I've had those comments made to me and it's just like, it's so, uh, difficult. It used to be so difficult to hear that kind of stuff because I think we have this assumption., of, of how people behave when we, and there can be certainly a lot of hidden pain as there was for me, um, growing up. And, and so I will just, uh, kind of like on the, you know, you guys have talked about this, uh, a fair amount on this podcast. And I think, uh, your, your conversation with, uh, Greg Prince, you know, handle, uh, address this beautifully, but I, I'm one of those individuals that, uh, acquired a pornography addiction early in my life, you know, that, that happened probably when I was, uh, 14 or 15. Um, and, uh, you know, back then the internet wasn't as big, but, uh, but, you know, I had a, I had a friend who, uh, you know, uh, acquired that kind of material, you know, in, in both like magazine and video format and, and, uh, stuff that I, I watched with him. And, and, uh, and then in addition to, in addition to that, there was a,, you know, a, a, an earlier period where I accidentally discovered, you know, masturbation, although I didn't know what the word was, you know. And so, um, and so there was this, uh, you know, as you can imagine, there was this sense of, uh, you know, growing fascination with, with, you know, these feelings that I'm generating in my, in my body and not knowing what I'm doing because there's nobody's talk— no one is talking about it. Um, there's no, uh, you know, as you can imagine. Uh, the top, the topic of, of sex in the church, uh, especially in those days is very taboo and even way more taboo when my parents were, were my age. And so, you know, other than maybe like, uh, like a single talk with, with my father when I was, I can't remember, like I was older than 12, but, uh, that was like the only time we talked about it. And so, and then so the rest of it was either through like school or, um, or, or maybe those once in a, you know, once a year talks that to check a box at church or whatever, but like it was just never really focused on. Um, but, uh, but you know, as I got, as I, you know, you, you asked, you know, things that were kind of like creating doubt in terms of doctrine or whatever, you know, as I started, as I, as I grew up, uh, that, that single thing, um, started to become a source of shame, uh, you know, pornography, masturbation. And it became ever increasingly such one such that I felt like I had to keep it hidden because of, uh, frankly, how the topic was being addressed in, in the church. Um, and I'll, I don't know if you guys remember, but in, was it, I think it was in 2002 or 2003 or 2000, somewhere around there, President Hinckley gave a kind of like the first big talk on pornography in, in the priesthood session. Um, he did. Yeah, President Hinckley.

I can remember a big one from Oaks.

This is before that. Yeah. I think, I think so.

Yeah.

So early. Yeah. So he, that was like the first. So I, I, you know, my, my dad and I, we would go to the priesthood meeting together. Um, and, uh, and I remember that talk specifically because, because, you know, and President Hinckley was never mean-spirited. But he started pointing out something that was just like, like, kind of like causing me self-reflection, like, oh, he's talking about me, you know, and just, and, and, and the kind of the, the, uh, tying it to chastity, tying it to almost like damnation. I mean, I think the, I think the story that he told was about a gentleman that had hated it his entire life, and then on his deathbed, You know, made known to his wife this problem that, um, uh, that he'd had his entire life and then he dies and kind of the way it was moralized was that basically he was screwed in the afterlife. Um, and so it's like, so, you know, what is, what is a, you know, young impressionable, uh, youth supposed to do with that? Um, other than like, whoa. I got to start trying to start trying to manage this. And, you know, because there is no, or there was no language of recovery or language to even like describe all this kind of stuff, you, the harder you work at it in secret, the longer or the, the more dug in it becomes.

Um, Chris, sorry, was the, was the, sorry, was the talk I've been, I've been listening to you, but I'm also just looking it up here. Is it a tragic evil among us?

Like what year was that?

That was, uh, 2004.

Yeah.

So it would've been, I think it would've been that one.

Yeah. So Enkler gave this talk. I remember this, a tragic evil among us in, uh, October conference, 2004. Was that the one then you think?

I, I believe so.

Yeah, references quite a bit. Okay, go ahead.

Because I believe the one, the one that Oaks gave on called basically who, where he called women pornography was on while I was on my mission. Um, and all the, all the elders kind of like snickered at that one. I remember that too. Um, but so you guys, so, so that, uh, so that, that, that became, uh, that became a huge personal milestone. And to the point where, uh, to the point where I felt like, you know, because in, in the culture, you guys have talked about this in the culture. There are a lot of expectations in the church, like going on a mission is one of them. And it's not like I didn't want to go, but like the cost there. But when you're, when you're left holding this, like, do I reveal this and, and lose all chance of going and maybe rejection from some very important people or culture? Versus like just suck it up and go and just deal with like kind of the, the shame or the kind of the, you know, mental weight of it. Uh, I chose the latter, like just, you know, just keep it to myself, suck it up and go. Um, and I remember cause I was in the NTC for, I was in the NTC for probably, uh, I mean, I was there a total of like 9 to 10 weeks and I think about week 5 or week 6, I, um, I remember just having a weight so heavy, uh, of shame that I thought that I would just have to leave. There was no way that I could continue, uh, with the way that things were going. And, and I'll always remember that we were walking somewhere one day as a district, and I don't, I don't remember where, but like with this, just the, this, this feeling of shame had just reached fever pitch for me. And, um, and I'll just remember that walking somewhere, I, it started, this feeling started from like my, the top of my head traveling all the way down my body, um, of, of, of just an incredible amount of like warm love and forgiveness, uh, that, that completely removed the burden I was carrying. I get was, I have, I, it's the only time it's ever happened to me. Um, and it basically freed me up to serve on my mission completely. All that weight was gone. Um, and, and honestly, like that, that experience is what frankly keeps me anchored right now from like, you know, just like throwing it away some days because like I had this and there's just, there's never been, um, There's never been another way to explain it other than from something outside of me that, that cared much, cared a lot at that time. But I mean, as is true with most people with this, with this issue, you know, I went on a mission and it was, it was great. But, you know, upon returning from the mission, as is fairly common, that, that problem came back and came back as if it had never left.

Were you, sorry to interrupt, were you free from it on your mission? Did you have any, for example, before I went on a mission, like most guys, I really like girls. I was interested in girls, right? Something very odd happened, which was not me, by the way. I just lost interest in girls. Like it, it, it just kind of—

Your mission may decay. Is that what you're trying to turn it? No, no, no, no, no. It, I mean, this is a safe space, Ian, if you want to say space.

What's— as I'm listening to you, Chris, uh, my question was, did you have any desire to look at Panay when you went on a mission? Because when I went on a mission, I mean, this has been the '80s, there's no internet, right? So before the internet, right? And if you wanted to look at stuff like that, you had to buy a magazine, right? And none of that stuff really interested me, but I liked girls. Of course I like girls, right? And so, but I wasn't really thinking of girls on the mission. I was so involved in the mission. I wasn't, it kind of didn't, it just, the attraction had not entirely gone, but it kind of left in a bit, in a big way. It was very odd. When I came back off the mission, it just, all the hormones just kind of came rushing back. It was very. Odd for me, not just, yeah, my question for you is, is, um, did you feel, were you free from it completely, would you say, on the mission? And then when you came back, did the, the urge or the temptation to get into it again, did that suddenly just hit you when you came back, or was it a different kind of experience?

Uh, so I mean, on the mission, pornography was just not readily available. Um, at all. And so that, I mean, looking at that stuff was, was just not a thing. Um, but I mean, as is, uh, but, but, you know, masturbation is available and, and that was something that, that returned about 9 or 10 months into my mission. And, and, uh, unfortunately became like this, uh, it, it was never like a serious issue, but it was, uh, but it, but every time it occurred, uh, I always felt so much I associated the garbage that happened. I associated like all the meetings and, and lessons being canceled the next day as my fault. Like I had made this mistake and therefore, therefore this is why God's punishing us as a companionship.

Yep. Okay.

Um, yeah. And, uh, and so like, yeah. And that, that was a, an infrequent occurrence, but still. Semi-regular on the mission. Um, but you know, the mission, obviously, as you, as you well know, can be a time of great stress on certain days. And, you know, again, I think what, uh, you know, when we talk about the language of addiction, you know, the behaviors that are engaged in are engaged in because they do something positive for us, you know, to deal with stress or, uh, or, you know, it's kind of like that, uh, that acronym, you know, when you're hungry, you're angry, you're lonely, you're tired, just all these acronyms that they come up with like, that's why these things happen. Like they are a coping mechanism, but, but that's not how it is portrayed. That is not an acceptable explanation in a church setting. It's, you know, it's a sin that's very simple.

Yeah. And just to go back, I'm listening, just going back to what you said on your mission, you know, when you had these desires, which are very common on a mission, let's be honest about it, I think.

Well, they're very common to anybody at that age.

That's—

Anybody that age, totally. Jim's right. I mean, Sorry, Jim, go ahead.

No, that's it.

Yeah. So a young guy, right? In a religious or not, in or out the church or whatever, has got these raging hormones, right? It's completely understandable. Very normal. Very natural. You're supposed to suppress that, you know, on a mission. When you can't, or people, you know, missions slip and something happens negatively, of course, the automatic thing is to blame oneself and the, the, the, the intense shame and guilt, uh, a missionary could feel can be just overwhelming. On your mission, when you experienced these, um, these desires, um, was there anyone that you could talk to? Could you speak to your mission president? You talk, you speak so highly of your mission president. Could you speak to the mission president or any companions, or was it, were you so afraid that if you did share these experiences,, that there was a risk of you being judged or labeled or even getting sent home?

I, I mean, uh, I don't, I don't, I mean, you say I, in terms of like talking with, you know, any of my companions, like that wasn't even remotely in my mind. The only person I, because yeah, that was nonstarter for me. And then, uh, you know, talking with my mission president, there was some trust in there. And I think there may have been one time that I cautiously approached the subject with him about, but it was only once. And, but it was, I, I, I was optimizing for not rocking the boats to jeopardize my presence in the mission. Right. Um, so, all right.

And so you, you managed to get through your mission, you know, you didn't talk to anyone. You internalized it, you felt guilty, you kept it to yourself, which I think is probably very common. That's, Jim, that's extremely unhealthy, isn't it? Let's face it, right? Um, and then you came home and did, uh, you know, you get released, you've no longer got the mantle, as they say, that goes. What was it like to get back into the real world then, dealing with some of these issues and challenges that you, you experiencing?

I mean, it was just, I mean, it's interesting because like you, um, you know, when there's, when there's not any like health, when you don't have any ways to healthily deal with the problem, you end up falling back into old habits very easily as if you'd never left them. Um, and you know, you, you talk about the something that's being very common for young men. The, the, the other thing that was very common was just how the church framed it. And honestly, that was what kind of what made it the worst part is, was that, was that I was the secret sinner that was bound for, uh, damnation, frankly. Uh, and, and so, and so as that getting back from my mission and ran and, you know, getting and, you know, just not a, not of like a personal choice. It's just like, it's just something that happens, you know, where life happens, you know, it's easy for that perfect storm to come along., and then this is the cope that you reach for. Um, and, uh, one thing leads to another very quickly. And so then that, and, and it's, it's almost like this experience where like you, you're, you're choosing to do something, you know, you really don't want, but like you don't have any other choice because like if you don't do it, then the pressure will just build and you'll eventually just mess up anyways. Um, and then because you do that, you get into this mode of like, I'm broken. You know, or, and, and, uh, but I can't let anybody know because this is like very taboo. This is like one of the worst things I can be doing.

Uh, so it's just sydex to murder according to some people, which is absolute lunacy.

Right. So, so you came back, you fell back into it.

Um, yeah.

Was it, without getting into too much detail, was it, did it get so bad? Could you talk to leaders? And then at some point you, you got married and you have a family. Could you walk us through how you kind of navigated all of that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah. So I mean, I, I came back and I, I went, I went back to BYU. Um, you know, kind of went back into the normal, into the normal life there. I started, I, you know, dove into my, my major and other extracurricular activities there. And, um, and it was just, it became, uh, and because BYU, you know, I was in, I was in computer science. And so because that ended up being very stressful and it was something, it was a stress that I liked, but it was also like a stress that was heavy. Uh, You know, this, this coping mechanism became more frequent and, um, and not, and, but now I'm kind of immersed in, you know, Book of Mormon classes. Um, and, and honestly, because of this experience, like I was, I kind of had, I had kind of developed this belief that, that nobody would, nobody would love me if they knew about this. And so I didn't talk with, I didn't talk with anybody. So I, I tried, uh, you know, and by the end of my mission, I knew that this was a problem that, that I did not want. And it was a shame. And I knew, I, I believe strongly that it was wrong. And because of the, and because of the shame associated with it, I knew I needed to do something about it. So I tried, you know, I tried taking my, you know, approaches that I was discovering, like in, uh, like for example, there were, there were books starting to come out about some of this. You know, back, back, back then, you say back then it was like not that long ago, but like a lot has changed on this topic in a short few years. But, uh, there was a book called, um, He Restoreth My Soul that was written by, um, that was written by an LDS neurosurgeon who apparently also had a, had a, had a porn addiction. And the book was trying to combine the gospel of Jesus Christ with neuroscience. Um, and that was probably like the first good approach to, to dealing with it, um, to, or to maybe to thinking about it or whatever, but it was, it was still mired in, in kind of gospel, gospel language. But honestly, honestly, like the first time somebody other than me knew about this was when, because I, when I was at BYU, I got to live with my dad's parents. They were a few They were a few miles from, from BYU campus because my, my grandfather used to be a professor there. And, uh, and so my, my parents came and visited, um, from Colorado. And it was like the day they were leaving, um, the, uh, my mom was in, was in my room. I had a big mirror in my room and she was doing her hair and, uh, ended up like for some reason opening up some of the the drawers I had to like store some stuff that she had temporarily. And she saw these books that I had on pornography. Uh, and, and she looked at me, uh, and she asked me like, what, what are these? And, uh, and I just remember like just breaking down in front of her that I had this problem that I couldn't fix. Um, like everything else, the more that I applied myself to, I could fix. This one I could not. And, uh, you know, and what I received from my mother, I will always remember. It was just a big hug. Um, and, uh, you know, they were, they were just departing like in the next hour or whatever, but she's like, she's like, okay. She's like, I love you. Give me a call, you know, when we're— and so we ended up, um, so my parents, that was kind of like how my, my parents, uh, found out. And honestly, like, that's Like of all the ways to react to somebody coming out with this problem, like that was the way to react was, uh, no judgment, just a big hug and love. Um, but you know, that, that was kind of like the very first kind of start of somebody knowing. And, but it's not, it's never like a, it's never like a one and done, uh, type thing with, with something like this. Um, you know, I, I had to. Uh, you know, that there's obviously not too soon after that, you know, the problem kept happening and, uh, I just, you know, I didn't know, I didn't know what to do and, you know, eventually kind of like closed off, closed back off again. Um, and, and chose kind of really not to date really a lot because I didn't really have a high self-esteem, but, but it was on a temple trip in my singles ward to Logan, Utah., where another branch from that northern part of Utah, uh, joined us, that I met the girl who would eventually become my wife. Um, and it— meeting her was, was fascinating because it had felt, it had felt like we had known each other a long time and, and could— I could just be myself with her. Like, I, I— it was just the, the most interesting experience I'd ever had in the presence of a girl, um, that I didn't have put on some face. Um, and so we date, we, uh, we, we dated. I was, it was longest, it's like kind of long distance. I, I would drive. I got to the point where I was driving up, uh, to, to, uh, Syracuse, Utah, where she was living. Um, like every weekend. And, uh, at some point in our, I, months into our, um, you know, dating experience, I told her, uh, I told her that I had this problem. But I wanted to come across as somebody who was like put together, or, you know, a strong priesthood holder, somebody, somebody desirable. So I told her that I had it handled. You know, I didn't. And so she just kind of accepted the fact that I had this problem. And she kept— she leaned into the relationship, and so did I. And knowing, even knowing that I had this issue, and, uh, and, and then we were, and then we were married. Um, and yeah, I mean, here, I mean, here's the thing. I mean, one of the things that they do talk to you about, or at least back then, is that, you know, in terms of like the repentance process and all of this kind of stuff, is that, is, you know, is that marriage would not fix the porn problem. And that, you know, that is very true. Um, you know, just because you can have approved, you know, church-approved Intimacy is not, uh, is not, does not mean that the rest of that stuff will just get replaced. Um, and so, uh, and so pornography, masturbation were still a thing, but the problem is when you add, when you add a marriage into it, um, you, you end up in this really weird, uh, and really kind of like horrible spot, at least for me, because, because, because of the way that The pornography and all this stuff was now being framed. And because the church was now, I think President Hinckley and President Oaks' talks kind of like really shifted focus for the whole church onto pornography for a very long time, like just like laser focused on it. And, um, and so I honestly thought like sex was the enemy. Um, and so that obviously makes things very hard. In a marriage because, uh, because my wife felt rejected because I was, I couldn't, I, I did not know what healthy sex meant because it was just, it was all the same thing to me and it was all associated with this stuff that the church was telling me that I had to get rid of. Um, and, and that caused actually quite a bit of, uh, long-term, long-term, uh, damage in, in our relationship. Uh, and you know, over the course of years, but, but about 1 to 2 years in, uh, after, you know, the shame again reached kind of this fever pitch, uh, I decided that I really did need help from the outside. Um, and so I decided to, uh, lay it all out for, for my wife that, that, that this, uh, that this condition was still present and accounted for in our relationship and in myself. Uh, and that I was also going to go talk with the bishop, uh, as well. The first time I'd ever, ever decided to do that. I, but I got to the point where I just couldn't take it anymore. Um, and so, you know, and, and to my bishop's credit, uh, you know, he, he handled it well, but I had, I had already kind of like come up with a plan of what I was going to do. Like I was, uh, I had a, an uncle who had, who had, uh, successfully navigated the, the Alcoholics Anonymous program.. And so I said, okay, I wonder if there's one for equivalent for, uh, you know, for someone like me. And there, there are. And so, uh, so I went to a, I went to a 12-step program and I went, I probably went to 2, I tried out, I think 3 different types of, of, uh, of 12-step programs. Um, and that was, that was eye-opening for me because here you had, uh, here you have this group of men all coming together and they can speak frankly about the issue. Um, and so the church, the church has, uh, the church has a version of it that is, uh, at least at the time was very watered down and unhelpful. Um, and then you have like the kind of the full AA derivative, uh, of, of it. And it was really the, the church one was interesting. It was almost run like a sacrament meeting and you couldn't, there, you know, it was kind of taboo to use the language of the addiction in those meetings. And so like here you have a bunch of guys with problems. They can't even use the words to describe what the problem is, or they don't feel comfortable doing that because we're in like a church seminary building or, you know, or there's, or there's, uh, you know, service missionaries there who have never ever experienced anything like any of these people are experiencing in this room. Um, and, uh, and it was also like, and from the, and it was also difficult to, I felt really lucky because., you know, regard, I mean, I, I did hurt my and harm my wife by telling her that this was still a problem, but, but she chose to stick with me. Uh, but I knew, I knew, uh, but when you're in these groups with other men and you start hearing their lived experience, you start to see, wow, we don't have a healthy way of dealing with this because like, you know, there was one, uh, and because of, because of the stigma that this particular thing has. Like, you know, it was one, one gentleman came out to his wife and his wife immediately decided to leave him, like no chance whatsoever to, uh, to, to repent. Um, you know, another one, his stake president basically told him that this would never, he would never be able to repent from this, you know, or, uh, you know, just, uh, stuff like that. And, and, and, and so you, and, and a few people I know, uh, eventually just had to kind of like leave the church because honestly, the way the church was framing it was just so unhelpful. That they could find no recovery while in the church. And so that, that, I think, probably took up like a decade of my life going to, you know, trying to go to all these meetings, just trying things harder to try to get rid of this. And honestly, like, our marriage centered around this single issue. Of like, like we, we didn't spend a lot of time, like we obviously went on dates and, you know, but, but like, it seemed like a lot of our headspace was around how do we get, how do we get Chris recovered from this? Um, and it really, it stole a lot of time from us because, because we felt like the only way to progress in our life, at least according to the church, was to get rid of this one thing if we wanted our family to be eternal. So, um, yeah.

Can I jump in here for just a second? I, I, I mean, it breaks my heart to hear this. It just absolutely breaks my heart because the church has moved away from this. Yeah. I mean, the church no longer is going to tell you that your eternal family is at risk as a result of masturbation. But the thing is the church also has not announced that they moved away from this. So the pain and all, so much of this sounds to me, Chris, you sound like a wonderful human being who has been through so much really unnecessary pain that you were shamed for for being, I mean, for something that the church no longer even is particularly concerned about anymore. I mean, it's not that the church says, okay, it's great. Uh, but it just, when I hear stories like this, I mean, I'm, I'm one of the few human beings, and I don't say this as a point of pride. I mean, I've talked about this. I've talked about. All of my weird problems with Boyd K. Packer's little factory thing and how that essentially made me afraid of my own body throughout my entire adolescence. And, uh, I'm really one of the few people that got through my adolescence without masturbating. But the cost of that, I still had plenty of shame. I still thought I was a vicious sinner because I wanted to. And I was scared of myself. I was scared what would happen if I actually did. And what— I mean, the amount of guilt, the amount of shame, the amount of self-loathing that I internalized, even if I was doing something right, because of the church's obsession about something it is no longer obsessed with. Uh, I, I think both of us are kind of both sides of that coin, uh, that, you know, I mean, Ian, you joined the church at 16. You didn't have any of that.

I didn't.

I— Afraid of your own audience.

My experience was completely opposite. Um, the, it would, I mean, I didn't, yeah, we didn't have any of this stuff, you know. President Oaks's talk or Hinckley. I didn't have any of that expert, you know, judgmental damnation stuff, which is absolutely crushing, right? And so I, yeah, I have a different experience on that. And there was never a time where anyone said it was wrong. You know, my mates were doing it, you know, everybody was doing it. There's no internet. So if you needed to look at something, and I was never interested in that, but there was always those magazines, right? So that was going on. But yeah, my experience was completely different. I think as I listen to you and Jim Bennett, you shared your experience on some of this as well. My mind catches hold of and provides a an even deeper perspective for me, at least, in, uh, on Greg Prince's Roadmap for Improving Mormonism, wherein there's a section in there titled A Healthy Philosophy on Sex, which we covered, you know, on a recent podcast. We did the podcast with Greg. I understood it from a certain perspective, and now because of listening to you, Chris, and your courageous, extraordinary courage to come on and to share these experiences, which is so, so brave of you to do this, frankly. And it'll help you hopefully and help so many others. I now see that item, that section in Greg Prince's Roadmap for Improved Modernism quite, quite differently. Even more significant, I think, listening to you. Two things in relation to that. Do you, and Jim, you can speak to this as well, Chris, do you attribute some of the difficulties in these experiences as because the church did not provide an environment where you could have a develop a positive philosophy of sex? And the second point to that, Keeping in mind Oakes's talk and Hengley's talk and this guilt, damnation that was so crushing on you, do you also think that because there was no outlet or very little outlet in terms of speaking to people and counseling and stuff like that, that it was, you know, I was, for example, it was difficult to talk to people, difficult, you know, the church is a difficult environment to talk about these things, isn't it? Because You're labeled, you're judged, you're not worthy, you can't take the sacrament, you can't pass the sacrament, you're not worthy to even give a talk. You're just not worthy, right? And if you've got a really good bishop, then you're lucky, you can talk about these things. And if he's really good at keeping confidences, then you're in luck, but that's not always the case. So the two points I want to make is, do you attribute some of these difficulties because the church didn't provide the environment for having a, you know, conversations and have a positive philosophy on sex? And also the fact that the church was, um, didn't provide those mechanisms and that support to help you, you know, deal with these issues. Can you speak to that, Paul? Do you agree with that or do you have a different view?

Well, um, as I said, I really like those questions. I don't think the church had the language, frankly, because it was so locked in to how it explained the world around us. And I'll kind of give you an example. Um, so, you know, I, I got to the point where, uh, after a decade of, of trying like intense 12-step programs, regular 12-step programs, multiple ones, like handing in my temple recommend to my bishop as a means, as kind of a consequence for messing up, you know, cold showers, doing long runs as a punishment to try to— anyways, all that stuff, it became exhausting. And I, I think in 2016, 2017, 2018, something like that. I looked at my wife and I said, I'm done. Not, not done with marriage, but like, like I'm out. I gotta stop. Like, this is so exhausting. Um, and so like, but like right, but like right before that, like my, uh, my in-laws, um, my, my father-in-law is, I think so that people kind of understand, uh, my father-in-law was, would be kind of viewed from the outside as a prepper. You know, and, and, and preppers have, uh, kind of this, um, let's just say they have, they have a, uh, an intense focus on, on end-time visions or spiritual experiences or all that kind of stuff. And one of the, one of, and you guys I think have mentioned this book a little bit, but one, one of the, one of the, one of the books that came like a decade or so ago that, that was very popular around this area was Visions of story. Um, and, and it, it took off like wildfire. And it, uh, there's a part of that book, and I, I don't know that people remember this, but there's a part of that book where, where Spencer, uh, sees this, sees how addiction works for people. Um, so he sees basically evil spirits entering into people who act out to get their, you know, basically to get their spiritual jollies because they don't have, they don't have a body. And, and frankly, like, that was the language. The way that we view Satan, the way that we view adversity, we always, the language we use is to externalize what we're experiencing onto some unseen evil entity. And so like, so like Spencer's, you know, the Visions of Glory ramped that up. You know, there was another book that, there was another book that my, my in-laws had called, uh, Conquering Spiritual Evil. Uh, it was written by, I can't remember the name of the guy that wrote it, but, but I think he eventually left the church and went after, and then joined the Denver Snuffer movement. It was kind of the same thing, like his, supposedly the, the, his daughter had had some capability to see beyond the veil and see, and see the spirits that were here, you know, walking among us. And that was very much, uh, but, but his approach even was more so than, than Spencer's, um, such that, you know, supposedly there are like real spiritual weapons being used against us. And like, these were, these were the fundamental roots of, of the trials and the addictions that we have are these, are these evil entities. Basically possessing us. And, and that language, regardless of whether you believe it or not, like it is in the church. Like when we talk about Satan, when we talk about evil spirits, when we talk about temptation, we are always talking about unseen evil forces, like making us do these things.

That's what I wanted to clarify. Cause you know, I want to be very clear on this.

It's, you know, we got a.

Reliable interpretation, are you saying then in the church, doctrine and history and conversations and the culture and attitude of the church, that when people, and let's be specific here, masturbate or have an addiction to porn or whatever, it's an external force making them do it. So some evil spirit, Satan, uh, is taking control of us to some extent, influencing us, and making us or whatever do those things. And therefore, what does that mean? We're not responsible for our own actions, or we can blame something else, or we're not in control. Um, did I describe it properly? And then the second part is, is that my interpretations? Are they same as your interpretations?

Uh, I mean, in terms of like, in terms of like, oh, it's not our fault. I think sometimes we, sometimes I think we, we, I don't, I think we then, I think we honestly take on the blame even more because if this is happening to this, then I'm not leaning into Jesus enough.

Right.

And so it's just like, it ends up becoming, puts, it just increases this vicious cycle of, yeah. Uh, of shame and, and, and doubt and, and, uh, yeah. Yeah.

Because, because you feel you feel weak, tempted, uh, this, this evil influence is on you. You're not resisting. You are giving into it. You then do it. You feel even more terrible, guilty because you are not worthy to resist that temptation. And as you say, it's this vicious cycle of self-destruction where it affects your spirit and self-esteem and self-worth, and it will eventually crush you, um, emotionally.

But the thing is like the, and, but the, this language to describe the world and why things work like this is very pervasive since the times of Joseph Smith. I mean, you look at, you look at how, how the devil was talked about, you know, and, and even, even like President Nelson's talk, uh, you know, would it before he died, we talk about how Satan is like this very central, you know, figure and agent on the earth, you know. Doing, you know, stirring up all these really bad things. And like, it's, it's totally, uh, frankly, now, I mean, my current view is just, it's completely unhelpful. Um, because it just, it really stops us from, uh, from taking accountability and, and maybe looking inward a bit more and getting the help that we really need as opposed to, oh, it's this other external thing that I can't see.

I see. We've got about 10 minutes roughly, I think, Jim, before we kind of bring things to a close here. Chris, could you just tell us what happened next then? So you speak to your wife, you've got to the point where you're just done, you've had enough, it's exhausting, I think you said that, emotionally, spiritually, etc., and you're just desperate for help. You go to the bishop, you speak to your wife, You know, you've got your, your father-in-law who's, uh, uh, you know, uh, a prepper, um, et cetera. You've got these people around you. What happened next? Did you get the help that you need? And did that make any difference?

It, uh, yeah, we're, I gotta condense like 10 years of stuff here into this like short little thing here. But if I were to summarize, if I were to summarize this, that, that, uh, that belief. That Satan was doing this, or that, you know, that description from Visions of Glory of unseen forces, you know, doing this thing in me, led me down, I would say, a path of fundamentalism for a while. Because what better to— what, and honestly, scrupulously, but what better to deal with you know, these unseen forces than digging in harder on, on spiritual things. And so that's like, you know, pray harder, scriptures harder. Um, and, you know, during, uh, during COVID um, you know, when, when church went away, you know, we, uh, we were invited by a former bishop in our ward to kind of join his family and another family in our ward in our neighborhood. To, uh, to have like weekly kind of like scripture study with them. Um, and there was a gentleman, there was a gentleman that would come, one of our neighbors that would come every, every so often, not very often, who had, um, who had, who had discovered and joined this, this fundamentalist group led by Phil Davis down in Provo. And, uh, and so I, I kind of got on this kick of like, okay, well, I mean, if, and that, that person that this Phil guy had supposedly, you know, he claimed to visions of Jesus and having received what he called the second comforter, which is the Joseph Smith teaching. And so I thought, oh, you know, if I go and seek after this, I'll finally get the help, you know, get the help that I need. You know, and so I went and saw Phil. And this is, I mean, this is a, and COVID amongst its other things kind of like instilled in me this like, Um, you know, the end time— I don't know if you guys remember, like, the, the just the, the end times fervor during COVID reached a fever pitch, um, in, in the church and in any and pretty much every Christian, uh, I think group. And, uh, and this, this, and, and this was no exception here. And so, uh, I sought after, I sought after Phil to try to get some spiritual help from somebody who had supposedly spoken direct with Jesus. Um, and, uh, and that ended up, uh, you know, kind of like skipping over a bunch of things. He, uh, it ended up collapsing my, it ended up collapsing my, my faith framework. Um, because, you know, I, uh, I found that this group of people were just, um, you know, very conservative. They would basically, they were mixing conservative politics with religion. In sociality. And it was so repulsive to me once that became obvious that I just, you know, as I was discovering, you know, I was putting all this work in, I was praying harder, all this other stuff and nothing. I was doing everything that the church leaders said to do to fix this problem for, you know, a decade or more and nothing worked. And so, and even, you know, Leaning into, leaning into fundamentalism, you can't help but notice, you start noticing some of the areas of the church where, where doctrine, right, where teachings don't match up anymore.

And can I ask him, how would you, how would you, sorry, how was your wife reacting to all of this?

I mean, so our marriage actually became very, well, I mean, she was, I mean, we loved the scripture group. I mean, we, that was, uh, it was, it was very niche. But, but behind the scenes, like our marriage became very rough. Um, because, and this was, this was just years of being so focused on, on this one issue that we didn't know how to build a relationship because my problem was not taken care of. And so there were like codependency issues. There were, uh, we just didn't learn how to communicate very well. And, uh, eventually, you know, after. I remember that, I remember the day when everything collapsed for me. Like I entered into a really, really dark depression. Because nothing, like I couldn't, like the church no longer, like I, nothing was working that the church was saying and this other thing wasn't thing and I just, there's nothing left for me. And it, if it frankly turned me towards something completely different. It turned me towards, you know, scholarship, philosophy, and counseling. And, uh, and so like, first off, like my, uh, my, my wife and I, we got into marriage counseling. Um, and, um, and it took a long time, but we, but we got to a much better place. And, and then I found, and then, uh, but obviously, I mean, this is condensing a lot of time, but I got to the point where what, you know, when your faith framework collapses, the, the problem is, is that you can enter into nihilism, uh, fairly quickly if you're, if, you know, and that happened to me. And, uh, I, I ended up becoming a bit suicidal, um, at one point, and and my wife, and this is after we had had counseling, and my wife in her infinite wisdom, uh, kind of like called in some big guns. It was on a Sunday, uh, when I, when I had, when I had opened up to my wife that I was experiencing these things. And so my, my sister, my youngest sister at the time was, was getting her, uh, mental health, uh, counseling hours to become licensed. And so my sister came over. And, uh, she put on her, it was a fascinating conversation because she, she put on her therapy therapist hat and her sister hat. And that's typically not what you do as a therapist because, you know, you can get, you can get too emotionally attached, but she somehow held it, uh, intention for that time she spent with me. And, and that one conversation ended up reframing everything about, uh, about the pornography addiction that I had. She, she like changed it away from this, this framework of sin and, and stuff into something that was more of like a coping mechanism, uh, something that wasn't something that was like normal and something that then, then could be dealt with. Um, and after that I found, um, after that I found a therapist Uh, who did, um, he, he pr— the, the methodology that he did in his office was, uh, called Internal Family Systems. And Internal Family Systems, if you don't know much about it, is, is a, is a therapeutic technique where you look at yourself as a system of, of, of beings that, that all do something for you. So like, uh, and, and you learn. You learn to have a relationship with those different parts of you, even the, even the parts that you don't like. And you, you learn to love, love them and have compassion for them and learn to understand what those parts are trying to do for you, even when they're not doing it in the best way possible. And it was just fascinating to enter into this completely different way of thinking where instead of like instead of viewing this as some, like, evil entity from the outside of me, like, this is just something that developed inside of me that now I had to learn to love and accept. And then once I did that, then I could develop a better relationship with it. Um, and that really, that really turned things around for me because, like, then I, I mean, I just, it was in those sessions that I just, I had to unload so much church stuff. In those sessions, just decades of all of this stuff that had built up that ended up driving me so deep and making it harder to get out of. Um, when really the thing that really what I need to do is learn to love and accept myself where I was.

Right, right.

And where are you now, Chris, in yourself? What do you say?

Um, I would say, you know, it's, it's been an issue. You know, I, I mentioned that, you know, things collapsed and kind of like glossed over a lot of details there, but honestly, like, you know, as, as I turned to scholarship, you know, I turned to scholarship because I wanted to understand once I realized that things weren't as they seemed. I needed, I needed to figure out, okay, well then where did all this stuff come from? And so I dug into, you know, Old Testament scholarship, you know, what we know about the ancient Americas, like all, you know, where we get, where the priesthood band came from, all of this stuff, and kind of coming to the conclusion that, that's certain, that, you know, that our position of certainty is probably doing more harm. Well, not probably, it is doing way more harm than good., for us as we approach, you know, things of mystery. Um, and so, and, and frankly, you know, God, God has gone very silent, uh, for me. And, um, and so like, like, like when I said that, that, that one seminal experience in the MTC kind of like helps me hold on. I mean, that is like true in every sense of the word where like that happened and I can't explain it. Which means I can't throw everything away. Um, and so I, I have to figure out how to get by where I, you know, when I, when I don't really believe a lot of the church's doctrine anymore, how do, how do I move forward? You know, so I mean, I've, I've right now I've chosen to do that. Uh, I joined a, I joined a choral society last year.

Hey, music, man.

Yeah.

Way to go.

Yeah, we're, we're singing an Easter concert at the end of the month., in Salt Lake. Um, and, and the whole, the whole mission of that choir is to, is to, uh, what I think it's like to produce or to create thin spaces so that people can connect with the divine and whatever that means for them. And like, and the backgrounds of everybody in this group are so diverse. I mean, you have, you have people like the director, for example, used to be, he went through a graduate program at BYU and he came out. While he was there, and eventually like lost his community overnight and the safety, feeling safe in that community. And I, he's not, he's no longer part of the church, but he dedicates his life to helping people still find God, despite the fact that he's not part of like the church he grew up in anymore. And there's a lot of people like that, people in the church, out of the church, never been in the church, and we're all singing sacred music. And I can't, I can't explain it because like, That is like, that is soul-filling for me. And it doesn't, but it doesn't provide it. It doesn't, it doesn't itch the certainty scratch. It's just this like very powerful form of expression that connects all of us. And I, yeah, I can feel divinity when we sing it. Um, but in terms of like God showing up in the other spots when I pray or do all the things of the church, like I don't, I don't feel that. And so.

Yeah. Can I ask, if I may, Chris, how do you feel sharing these experiences in this way, in this situation on a podcast? Does it help you? Do you feel better in some way by talking about these things openly?

I mean, I've it'll be interesting to see if any, you know, family hears this or whatever, but, you know, because who have long made maybe assumptions about how I grew, you know, the perfect, the perfect life, quote unquote, that I grew up under and are in. Um, but yeah, I mean, this, like this, when people wonder, like, how I, you know, why, you know, for example, why I don't, you know, hold a, you know, hold a temple recommend or have strong opinions now, it's just like, Oh, you know, this is all, this, this whole experience has colored my, my whole life. And, and expectations set, um, by the church have just been a huge disappointment when they just haven't come to fruition. And she'll like, yeah, getting, getting that open shares with everybody that the real me, the one that like, like, you know, who, who, who's gone through really hard things, but then is also able to like listen. To really hard things and, uh, and realize that like, uh, you know, this, this, this perfect set of milestones that we're supposed to be, you know, hitting as we go along life may not be the same set of milestones that somebody else will be hitting through their life.

Right, right. But, but you say you don't have a temple recommend, but so it sounds like you still go to church.

Yeah, I mean, we, we haven't, you know, Uh, we, we have not stopped going. Um, and I, you know, I, I, as you can imagine, like every temple recommend interview I've ever had in my entire life, I've never felt like I've been able to be completely honest. Like there's always been some kind of thing in there. And, uh, and so as part of like, as, as, as part of like this faith collapse, uh, and this wanting to be more honest about where I'm at, I decided that I was done trying to do mental gymnastics in answering the questions of the temple recommend. And so, so if I had any doubt in anything or whatever, like, I was— I just was not going to— not going to try to make it work. And I, I don't fault— there are a lot of people who try to do that, um, because they have concerns or whatever, they still want to go to the temple, and that's great. I decided that was not something I was willing to do any longer.

So, but that just speaks so well to your character and your resilience that despite all of this and despite all of your doubts and despite all of your frustrations with the church, that there's still a part of you that says, this is where I belong. I'm going to continue to go. I'm going to continue to participate, but I'm going to do it on my terms.

Yeah. And I love the people in our ward. I mean, they, they called, they called me to be the ward choir director at the beginning of the year. And I love doing that. You know, when we sing beautiful music in the ward choir and it's like, so there's like this, it's like this really weird tension of like, some Sundays really, like some, the way that some things are taught on Sunday really irritate me. But then I like, I also like enjoying being with the people. Uh, so yeah, that's just kind of the world that I live in right now.

Chris, you, this has been one of the most extraordinary conversations we've had on it, on Inside Out since we began. Almost 3 years ago. You are a truly remarkable, extraordinary, courageous individual. There's been a spirit that we felt having this conversation with you. There's a podcast we did a while back that we invite you to listen to. You probably listened to it already. I think, Jim, you titled it so well. I think it was titled, You Are Enough.

You are enough.

You are a you are enough, Chris. You are a son of God. You are unique. You have many, many qualities. You have weaknesses just like anyone else. You are a human being, you know, with all of the, all that comes with, you know, strengths and weaknesses and joy and sorrow. You know, you're living your life, you're on your path, your journey, but you are enough. And we want you to know that, and you're just an extraordinary individual. As we close here, um, what advice would you give to somebody who's struggling with the same issues that you have, struggling with addictions, trying to make sense of it, um, feels guilty, crushed by guilt, doesn't know who to, where to turn or who to talk to? What parting advice, if any, would you share with someone like that?

I would, I would learn, I, I, I would, I would advise, I would, two, two, two or three things. One, I think you have, you have to accept where you're at. You have to, if it, 'cause if you can't accept where you're at now, you're not gonna accept yourself when you get to some other place. And that would— and I think part of that leads to learning to love yourself. And I think that's a very important thing, especially as, especially as we talk about Jesus and his ability to meet us where we're at. I think we also need to learn to meet ourselves where we're at. Um, that is incredibly important. And then I think the other thing as well that needs to be said is that I think therapy has become, um, I think, I think sometimes there is this, this maybe this stigma with like, I'm that guy that now goes into therapy. I do believe that it's you, you do, you do need to find a, uh, if it, if it is bad enough or even if it's not and you still feel like you need help, like go find a therapist and don't just like sit with the first one that you find, like finding a good therapist is like dating, you know, you've got to find one that resonates, find somebody, you know, keep changing until you find somebody that, um, that you resonate with. And, uh, I wish I would have done that. With, you know, earlier on. Because the therapist that eventually helped me a lot was actually a recommendation from my, at the time, my bishop's, my bishop's wife, who was a professional counselor at BYU. And she gave me, she gave him a list of therapists and counselors that she trusted. And I chose one and ended up being really good. And honestly, as well, like, you, I think you have to account for the fact, especially if you're in the church, you have to account for the fact that maybe a lot of the reasons that you're stuck is because of how the church is framing things. And so I think, I think there has to be some openness to some different ways of thinking about why and where you're at. And I, and a therapist can help you navigate all that, um, in a very healthy way. So I think that's probably what I would, probably what I would say.

Chris, wise words. Thank you. As we close here, Jim, do you have any final thoughts or comments?

Just very, very grateful for you being willing to share this, Chris, because I know that this is a subject that, uh, it's, still difficult to talk about publicly, uh, even privately. Uh, the church still really hasn't developed the tools for any kind of productive conversations about this. And I think you sharing your story as bravely as you have is really going to bless a lot of lives. I think a lot of people are struggling with all of these same kinds of issues, and they're going to hear what you had to say here, and I think it's going to lift them up. And so thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing that with us and for being here with us.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jim has summed up exactly my sentiments, so I won't add to anything that, uh, that has been said, uh, other than to say that, um, to all of the listeners, viewers, and followers who follow Inside Out, um, if you do have a problem addiction, you're struggling with something, um, per what Chris has said here today, there is help. There are people out there that will help you. It does take courage. It's not easy. It can be extremely— the most difficult thing to do is to open up and talk about your feelings and thoughts. But there are people out there that will help you. And Chris has shared his extraordinary experience and how people have helped him in a very, very profound way. So, Chris, you're just a wonderful individual. Thank you so much for being so brave and so courageous. Jim Bennett, as always, your insights are just remarkable. Thank you. And to all of our listeners and viewers of Inside Out, thank you for listening. Again, this has been the most interesting and significant conversations we've ever had on Inside Out. And, um, And Chris, perhaps we could have you back. I know there's probably other parts of your story that you shared with me on that phone call that we haven't got into that perhaps we should, that might even help you and certainly help many other people as well. So on behalf of all of our listeners, Chris, thank you for being with us today. And Jim, as always, thank you for your valuable insights.

Thank you, Ian, and thank you very much, Chris.

Thank you.