A Conversation with Dr. John Hubbard, Mayor of Fairview, Texas

We are recording.

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. I'm Ian, and I'm here with Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello, Ian. We've got a great guest here. I'm very excited.

We have an extraordinary guest, uh, which we're really excited about. So there is a town about 30 miles north of Dallas with a motto you can fit on a road sign Keeping it country. Uh, yes, Fairview, Texas has only 11,000, uh, people, uh, quiet streets, close-knit, uh, neighborhoods and communities, uh, a peaceful, uh, uh, city, and a building code that doesn't allow buildings to rise much above 35 feet. And then someone decides they want to build a temple with a gigantic spire nearly 200 feet tall. For more than 2 years, the city of Fairview, Texas, has been locked in a dispute with the $300 billion Mormon Church over a question that turns out to be anything but simple: how tall is too tall? The original temple design reached nearly 174 feet. The town said no. There was a denial, threats of a lawsuit, mediation, a compromise at 120 feet, and finally a permit approved by council that openly admitted it didn't want to approve it, or some members didn't want to approve it. You think that would be the end, Jim? It wasn't. The man who voted against that permit as a council member now sits as the mayor, mayor's chair, and he's decided the fight isn't over. So a very special welcome to the City of Fairview, Texas mayor John Hubbard. Welcome, John.

Glad to be here.

Thank you so much. And you're right, there has been a little bit of controversy over the last couple of years, but hopefully we can talk about that and get some things cleared up.

Yeah, absolutely. I want to get into your article that you wrote in the Dallas Morning News and a little bit more details in there. But, but for the benefit of our listeners and viewers, which we have an international audience, Okay, many have probably never heard of your wonderful city down in Texas, USA. Could you give us a little bit of, uh, a background into the context of, uh, of this story, if you will, going back maybe a couple years?

Sure. Well, like we were talking about earlier, um, I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, uh, the LDS Church, contacted the town about 2 and a half years ago saying that they wanted to build this, what they described as a one-story building, and they were going to have an open house, and they invited the neighborhood to come to the open house. And when people got to the open house, the neighbors, they were told then that this building was going to be 64 or 65 feet tall, which is taller than our town hall that's in a commercial district. And was going to have a tower of about— or steeple— that would total 174 feet. And then they said, they mentioned Aralupa and said, if you don't like it, we'll sue you. And we've got tapes of people that recorded that, of that. So that's— so we kind of started off on a kind of a bad footing with the residents there in Fairview. So go on, you know. So it went to Planning and Zoning, then to our Town Council, and the hip— the 174 feet got denied by both the P&Z and the Town Council. Um, so fast forward a few months, and they said, why don't we have some type of a non-binding— I'll stress, non-binding— mediation? And, and the way it was explained was, okay, we'll come up with this agreement, which I thought at the time was great. 120— much better. 120 feet was much better than 174 feet. And they agreed to lower the top of the building to, I believe it's between 35 and 42 feet. Now, our, uh, our max, like you said, is 35 feet. But still, we thought this was great. But One of the conditions was we would go back and have a public hearing and see what our town citizens said, our residents would say. And they were clearly, they still thought this was too big. And so that's what, but, um, so then we went through the process, um, and, and really we voted 5-2, um, in favor of the revised CUP conditional use permit, which was 120 feet., and the walls vary between 32 and 37 or 38 feet, so that part was good, but it was 120 feet. Now, every council member, even the ones that voted for it, they were really afraid, they were afraid that the town was going to get sued into bankruptcy. None of them liked it, but they felt that was the best thing for the town to do. Was to do that. And that's what— and I think they— each one of them said that that's why they did that. So fast forward to last, I guess, May 1st, I received a hand-delivered invitation, or rather it was a save-the-date invitation to the— a VIP tour of the temple in Salt Lake City. I guess it's going to be reopened. And I thought, this is wonderful. I'm going to reply back and say, yes, I want to be there. I really do. I really want to go. But then as I'm writing this, you know, things are in the back of my mind about, you know, I hear about Yorba Linda, who had in California, Yorba Linda, California, it's in Orange County. They have the similar footprint as what we have here in Fairview, about 30,000 feet. Excuse me, 30,000 square feet. And so I'm looking at this, and then I'm looking at, uh, I'm reading about another temple that, uh, has no steeple at all. So I'm thinking, let me let them know. I just— what's changed? I know they've got a new president, so maybe that's changed. And I just asked in that initial letter, would they consider lowering the steeple? From 120 feet to something— and actually what would be great would be— but we, we have one church now that has the tallest steeple in town, and it's the LDS Meetinghouse, which is 68 feet. So we thought, you know, can we just do something lower than that? And I thought, what a great— I wouldn't want to say marketing, but what a great public relations ploy this would be, let me let them know what's happening, what sort of resentment our citizens are still having over this, and do they want this to be something that's looked at something that's endearing, or do they want this to look at this to be a symbol of something that's going to be in your face? And I thought it'd be a great opportunity if they knew what was happening here that they would do that. They would at least respond back positively, but they didn't. So that's kind of where we are.

I appreciate that. That gives us a lot of context. Just a question, you know, you like Canada, so the UK, where all these bylaws and these building codes originate from over, you know, many, many years, decades, right? Over 100 years. Um, U.S. judicial system is in many ways patterned after the British system, and same for Canada. Can— I've worked with municipalities in the US, it's very similar to Canada. You've got these bylaws which you plan, develop, consult with communities on these bylaws. The bylaws are enshrined under the Local Government Act here in Canada. I'm not sure, right, same thing, right? So these are bylaws developed with lawyers and legal professionals. They're developed, finalized, there's a vote on them, and then you vote on the bylaws, and then you enact and enforce bylaws, a whole bunch. Right, you know, building codes especially. So what was the, uh, what was the legal advice to the city in response or countering the argument from the Mormon Church, uh, in that, hey, look, this is our bylaws, these are building codes, this is what we work into, and this is the codes that we've actually voted on, and actually is, is actually connected to state law, like in Canada it's provincial law. In the United States would be state law because the, you know, you've got the state relationship with the cities and towns. What was the legal response in respect to the bylaws, protecting the bylaws?

Well, they said because of our LUPA, which is— you can tell me what that's an acronym for— and Texas has a statute, the state has a statute that maybe is even stronger than our lupa. And they were saying, our legal advice was, attorneys were saying, you know, you could try it, but we're in the Fifth Circuit here, it's a very conservative district, and you'll probably lose, is what we were advised.

Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act.

That's it, that's it, which in a lot of ways I think it had its place and maybe still has its place,, but I think some institutions like maybe the LDS Church are using it not so much as a shield but as a sword. I mean, they're, uh, it's just, uh, right, we, we, we offered, we had land that's, uh, that was north of town that we said, we, we tried, we said let's exchange that. We had a developer that has land in the commercial district which would fit would fit well there. Would you want to switch? And they said no, it needs to be here. So, and they said we will, uh, we were threatened to be sued. And so that's what happened. But that's the advice we got from our attorney, was that even if we won, we would lose because we would be tied up so much in legal fees, right, that we would, it would bankrupt the town.. And then we thought, you know, what other things can we use that money for? So, uh, 5 of our, my fellow council members held their nose and they voted for the 120-foot CUP.

Right, right. And then, uh, fast forward here, you then, you have this, uh, pretty difficult experience. You, you're making these economic risk assessment decisions, financial, you know, you could fight it, it's costing money, you know, might have to increase taxpayer, you know, local taxes, rates to pay for it, right? You know, how's the city going to pay for all that? You've got religious laws that seem to, uh, and you guys are more familiar than I am, seem to supersede or exceed Local Government Act and bylaws. Clearly church arguing that, you know, that this town, the city's got no rights to dictate how big the spire should be.

And they said that in my— and I quoted that in the letter. They said that in the response with that, just because we wanted it that way lower doesn't mean it has to be that way. You have no right to tell us how tall our steeple should be. But, and that's why I quoted what really I think our lupa is being abused by the church. Like I said, it's a sword. I mean, they're using that and they're waving that and it makes a lot of us afraid of what to do because of the threat. You know, you've got this multi-billion dollar corporation, you've got this little town, um, you know, 11,000 people with a general fund balance of about $11 million with— and then that, you know, and then if we lost, we would have to pay all their legal expenses too. So I understand why the other council members came up with did what they did. But it just seems like, um, we're on the short end of the stick from the very beginning, right?

Financially, economically, you probably did, you know, look, doing like a, a government risk assessment, you probably did the right thing, you know, from those perspectives. And before we get into the article, and, and we want to hear Jim Bennett's perspective on this as well, because we've both been following this.

Well, yeah, no, I've been following it, uh, rather closely. Uh, we're We're both pretty good friends with, uh, a guy you know as Nemo the Mormon.

Yes.

Yeah, you were there when he came and—

yes, testified. That was great.

I think that kind of got him in trouble with the church at the time. He was still a member of the church and he no longer is. Uh, so I, I need to watch myself because I am still a member of the church.

Yes.

But in following all of this Uh, so I'm going to tell you a very brief story.

Okay.

Um, I have twin boys who ran the Boston Marathon. They both came in and, and, uh, they ran it under 3 hours. I tell you that for no reason other than to brag about how cool my boys are.

That is cool.

We went to Boston and it was the first time I'd ever been there, and we stayed in the house of my cousin, a man named Grant Bennett, who served as an area authority for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And, um, his home is in a sleepy Boston suburb called Belmont. Yeah, with 27,000 people. And Grant was given the assignment by the church to deal with the local town council to build a temple in Belmont. And they went through— it was somewhat similar process And initially they didn't want a spire at all. They said there is absolutely no place in Belmont for something that big. There's no place for a spire like that. And so initially the church agreed to build the temple without a spire, and they did. The temple was built, and the temple was there for like, I don't know, several years, uh, before Grant started working with the town council trying to build consensus and eventually got the town council to agree, not by means of bullying or by means of any kind of pressure, but just with a long-term conversation saying, this is what, what will work with you, what we're— anyway, the Belmont Temple now has a spire, and, um, and also the goodwill of the people of Belmont. And so when I look at your situation and I look at the church and say, look, this is a church that is a missionary church, that is a proselytizing church that relies on goodwill in order to be able to, uh, spread the message of the church and win converts to the church. And as I look at, at how the church has been operating in Fairview I just can't help but wonder if this was just— I can't help but wonder how much ill will this whole process has engendered in Fairview. And so I would love if you would sort of speak to that. And also, when I've raised that in church settings, They said, oh yeah, they're mad now, but they'll get over it. It'll blow over. They're going to just be so thrilled with this beautiful addition to their town. And I just think, well, well, first of all, nobody in Fairview other than members of the church gets to use it. You know, temples are very, um, you have to have a temple recommend to go through the temple. Uh, it will be open for, um, tours before it's dedicated. You'll get a chance to walk around and look around, and I think you'll probably be very impressed with how lovely it is. You know, here in Utah, the Salt Lake Temple, which is sort of the flagship, uh, has gone— undergone major remodeling. And I'm in the Tabernacle Choir, and we are preparing for a 6-month celebration of the rededication of the Salt Lake Temple. And for the first time in over 100 years, the public is going to be able to tour through the Salt Lake Temple and see what's in there.

Uh, how long have you been in the Tab Choir?

Uh, I joined in 2019.

I sang in 2019 with the Tab Choir with Vocal Majority.

Oh really?

In July of 2019. When did you start?

Uh, yeah, I started in May. So yeah, I was there.

I was there with you. You have to remember us. We were We're like 160 people.

Oh man, it was right, it was right around Independence Day in 2019. Okay, is it an all-men's choir?

All men's choir.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys made us look terrible.

It was so funny because, you know, we got there early so we could rehearse, and of course we don't use any written music when we sing. Yeah, we started And what's your director's name again?

Mack Wilburn.

Wilburn said, he says, I was—

he—

we were singing, of course we aren't using any kind of sheet music, and he stops and says, I was afraid of this. He dismissed you guys so you could go learn the music.

Remember that? I remember that, yes. But here's what—

I had the best time there. It was just— I'm getting chills thinking about it now. But what I remember, you know, was it's It's music and the spoken word.

Yep.

And they had a little sermon, had a little message.

Yeah.

And the message that day was how there's some things you can't do by yourself that you need a group to do. You know, you talk about, you know, they said you can, you know, maybe you can paint a picture by yourself, and, but there's things you can't do. And one of those things is barbershop. You can't sing barbershop music by yourself. And then it related to other things that you have to do as a community. And going through this whole— which, which I thought was wonderful. I always look back to that. And then I'm looking through this whole process here about the church and the, and the temple, and I'm going, where is that, that message? Someone's not listening to that message. There's a disconnect here because from the very beginning, you know, we have companies that come in here. We've got in Dallas and the metropolitan area, it's a partnership between the city or town and that organization. But it has never been that partnership that they preached about, they talked about during the music and the spoken word. And I'm going, what's going on here with this?

That is so amazing. No, when I say you made us look terrible, I have to explain what that means. Because you guys came in, I remember this now very clearly. Uh, and you guys came in and you were so animated, like facially animated, totally engaged. And I think after you left, Mac just sort of ripped into us and said, they're making you look like idiots. You guys are just standing there with these boring faces and they're so animated and they're so engaged and you need to learn from them. And, uh, you know, I was just so impressed. With how committed you guys were and, and how good you were. I, I remember that now very clearly. I, I had forgotten the name. I didn't realize that was the name of the choir.

Yes.

Yeah, it was one of my earliest experiences. I got my shirt on now.

Yeah, my Vocal Majority shirt.

Well, I'm so glad you had that experience because hopefully you realize that what's happening in Fairview right now with the church is not, I think, representative of the totality of who we are. Well, I know I agree.

And that's why I was so puzzled, you know. And I said, and that's why I mentioned that in my letter, my acceptance of the invitation. I said, because let me tell you this, at one, we never talked to a leader like the, the, uh, the First Presidency or the quorum, never talked to any leadership. It was always through an attorney. And based on my experience, I said, if they only knew all the division that's happening in my town with this, surely they would do something. It would be a wonderful opportunity, you know, if they just knocked off 10 feet. I think the citizens would be happy about that. What a great opportunity, like you said, to attract people. I think something like that would do it. But now, if it gets built like it gets built now, it's going to be a reminder that we stuck it to you. Instead of being something that should be of warmth and welcoming like I think it should be, like it really is. But it was one of the best experiences I had in my life was doing the music and the spoken word. But now I must admit I have kind of a sour taste in my mouth through going through this experience. I really do. I think—

go ahead.

How long do you just— you said something that I think hits the nail on the head, which is Every time members of your town look at that temple, it's going to be a reminder of what happened in order to make that temple happen.

Yes.

And so my guess is that, uh, it's going to be intergenerational, you know. I mean, it's going to be— it's going to be passed down, and it's like, hey kids, that temple, remember that temple? Uh, do you remember the terrible experience of what it was to make that temple put that temple there. I, I think it's going to be a long-term sort of ill will kind of thing. Am I, am I right or wrong about that?

I think so too, you know. Um, I think you're right. There, there are a lot of hurt feelings with people my age, but also younger folks too, that— and we tend to stay in Fairview. We, you know, we grow up, we raise our kids here, we move to another place, and we love Fairview. We'll stay here. So I think you're right. I think there will always be that resentment. There really will. If it's— it will be— there'll be a resentment. Um, and that's why we're doing some of the things we're doing now, even though I think we're going through the grieving process. We've got a new website that we're starting out called fairviewspeaks.com, and we're going to just kind of outline everything that's happened. And our whole intent with fairviewspeaks.com I think this is the first time announcement, I think, on this is we want to get leadership's attention so we can let them know what's happening here in the town. So we're going to have yard signs, we've got the website, we're going to take our fire truck around and we have a ladder fire truck and I don't know what day we're going to do it. It goes up to about 100 feet and then we're going to put a little balloon on the top of that. People know what 120 feet really looks like in this zone that's 35 feet. But I just would like to just talk to them. They may just say no, but I got a letter back from them and the letter was just like, I don't know what they read because first of all, in the letter I said, you have every right to build it at 120 feet. You've got the CUP. But let me tell you what's happening here. And I get a letter back saying that we don't want to relitigate the CUP. It's too late to make any kind of changes to it. You have no right to tell us to ask us to lower the steeple.

And I wasn't.

I was just saying, here, if you would voluntarily lower the size of the steeple, and here's why. And that's what I got back from them. But still, this was the executive director of the temple something. I can't remember the exact, but it was executive director of the temple department. That's where we got the nothing from the Q15.

Your experience, John, describes like a two-tier system in the church, two different organizations. One of the professional side of the church, which is you know, the one that you're, you know, coordinating with directly through lawyers, which is, which is just so unfortunate and so sad. And then to highlight the other side of the church, you know, that for the, for the most part, most of the members are just wonderful and they want to have these relationships with, you know, the local city and the community and the community leaders. Um, I've, um, Jim probably doesn't know this, but I've sat on a temple planning committee in the past in the UK, and the key prerequisite for planning and developing temples is relationships with the local community and collaborating in a meaningful way, in a full consultation under the consultation bylaws, etc., in a way that builds bridges and develops relationships. How many members of the church approximately do you think reside in Fairview, would you say, roughly approx?

Um, we have about 2,700 families, you know, and there's an average of like 2.7 per household. And we have about 120 members of the, of the church. 121 fam— 121 families, right? Families. So you multiply that by 2.7, let's say 3, so, so maybe less than 400 people.

Out of 11,000, and a ratio to 11,000 population. It's a very small ratio percentage to 11,000 people, right? Uh, what's been the— just to go back into what Jim was saying there, and, and it's just sad that when you look at the temple, and many will look at the temple, it'll be— it'll immortalize the dispute, the bad feeling. You know, the church's goal, like on the planning committee, would be to build a relationship with the community. Missionaries go out knocking doors, hey, we have a new temple down the road, 'Come and have a look, let's give you a little bit of an outside tour,' build that relationship, uh, uh, proselytize, get people into the church, right? That's what the whole point is, to bring people in the church and bring people to the temple. Now when people look at it, they'll see it as a, as a legal dispute, a very negative, uh, uh, period of history between, uh, the town and the Mormon Church, who you don't, you know, even know, you don't even have access to, unfortunately. What's been the— when I went online and looked at the, uh, reviews, so I'm looking at the map here and it's this, it's the building. I don't know the area, but it's on Stacy Road, is that correct? Yes, Stacy Road, which is just down the road from the chapel with the, with the spire that's the tallest.

Next door is right next door, literally right next door.

And I've been clicking on the reviews here, uh, on the Google Maps thing And there's a lot of positive comments, uh, posted that, you know, a warm uplifting environment, I feel the spirit so strong there, highly enjoyed the visits, it feels like home, wonderful site for the temple close to the Mochi Mochi Donuts, that's important of course, heaven on earth. I'm not sure if they're talking about the donuts or the temple there. I can't wait for the temple to be next door, so awesome. So there's actually quite a lot of 5 stars on the maps that I'm looking at, and I suspect some of those are probably from, you know, church members. But what's been—

pretty much all of them are, probably.

I guess I'm being gracious towards the church. I'm saying some, it's probably most, who knows. Um, but what's been the reaction of the majority of the town and how the church has handled it? And have they issued letters of concern and complaints? What's been the non-Mormon reaction?

Well, um, I think there are two different responses. The ones that live, um, close to the proposed temple site, most of those, especially those that are going to have lights shining in their backyards, are just really opposed to it. You know, it's not so much, you know, the height of the temple is one thing, but the brightness of the temple, which I still can't figure out what that has to do with our lupa, um, is another. And there are a lot of people that— like, this is a res— this is RE-1 zoning, which is residential 1-acre zoning. And just directly to the north of the temple site, we have residential houses. And, um, they pretty much don't like it being— well, I think there's one member of the church that lives Yes, there's one member of the church that, that lives on that street that I'm aware of, but the rest of them— but, um, and I can, and I can tell you that, uh, even some members of the church have talked to me privately, afraid to come out and make comments, saying that they apologize on how the church is handling this whole thing. But I would say especially the area that's immediately around the, uh, the, um, temple. No, let me go in and say we're only 11 square miles, and so I'd say probably at least, you know, 3 or 4 miles are not very happy with it. And the other, uh, the other residents are probably our, um, probably just don't care one way or the other because it doesn't really— but then there are others that live, you know, from nearby McKinney and right across the street in Allen and other places in Fairview too that aren't close that are just saying this is terrible, you know, this shouldn't be this way. So I think there will, you know, it kind of reminds me of— you talk about generations— have you ever heard about there was this deer I think that was in Europe, it might be called the red deer,— and this is back during communism— where they had a fence up. And so the deer knew not to come. They would stop at that fence. The fence was taken down, and even generations after that, the deer still don't go past what that fence is. And I kind of think like this could happen here, that people at some point, they'll— it's just such a bad attitude or a bad feeling or what's happened with the experience with the church that it's just going to completely turn them off.

Yeah, well, I have a friend who, um, he and his wife live in McKinney. Okay, they're members of the church. He's actually— I mean, his father is my age, so I actually taught this guy in Sunday school years and years ago.

Okay.

And he messaged me, he says, we're really uncomfortable because we've been pressured to go in and say things that we don't believe. For instance, this whole idea that steeple height is somehow tied to religious worship. He says, he said, we were told write a letter and tell them how important steeple height is to worship, because steeple height isn't important to my religious worship. I've never met— I, I've never— Ian, have you ever heard anybody in a church setting talk about the importance of steeple height of a temple?

Only when they were discussing the Fairview Temple.

Yeah, I mean, that, that, that was just sort of invented out of whole cloth. And I just listened to things like that, and, and there are members of the church— I know firsthand that there's at least one member of the church in that area that is in many ways just as uncomfortable as you are. With how the church has been handling this. Have you ever heard any of that? Have any members of the church quietly sort of reached out to you and said, "I'm really sorry that we're doing this"?

Yes, yeah, and I'm afraid to mention their names because they're afraid of the repercussions that may happen to them, but yes, I've had several people reach out to me and say, "Hey, we're really sorry about this." And to go back to what you were saying, during the, um, when we were making the decision, the council on the CUP, we heard over and over and over again how the height of the steeple was important to their worshiping God. And we heard that, so you can't argue with that. But then I'm seeing, you know, Vienna, that's the other place I'm seeing, places like Jorbalinda and Vienna that either have a lower steeple or none. It's like, what's changed? And so, well, maybe it's perhaps there's a new president now. Maybe that's changed. And that's why I suggested, would you consider maybe if the quorum or the First Presidency heard what's really happening here, how the residents are really struggling with this whole thing, maybe out of goodwill, out of being a good neighbor, they would consider lowering the height of the steeple. But yes, Definitely, yes, I have heard from people.

This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard of. I've never heard of this before. In fact, the church teaches that the Tower of Babel that the people built in the Bible to get closer to God was a mistake, and the Tower of Babel collapsed. So you can't get closer to God through physical structures. You can't build your way up to God. The way to get to God is through how you live and your heart and your spirit, right? Uh, there are numerous temples across the world without a spire. Hawaii Temple, Cardston Temple, Mesa, Hong Kong, Paris, Lima. The temple, uh, that, uh, you know, Hyde Park Temple in London where I've attended has no spire or steeple, right? The steeple has nothing to do with, uh, getting closer to God. I, I have a, um, a view as to why the church has done this, and I'm quite happy to share it with you. Sure, why, in your experience, in this whole debacle and how the church has handled this and the division it's caused, uh, within the community, which is so tragic and such a missed opportunity, you know, threatening— and I want to, I do want to get to your article shortly where you, you feel that you talk about that you feel and believe the church has bullied the town into submission, um, and I'm using my words carefully there from the article. But what— again, using careful words— what's your feelings and beliefs and understanding as of why the church has taken such a hard stance on this?

Well, I really feel if they give in to this height, then they have to do it in other places as well. So they need to take a stance saying— and because then, just like what I did, citing your Belinda people are going to say that— they're going to say, hey, you did this to Fairview, why can't you do the same thing to us? That's what I feel like. I feel like they have to take a tough stance, otherwise it's going to be the domino effect. But what they really should do is just go in like they did with Yorba Linda and work with the community to come up with something that works with, uh, for everyone. We'd never said that we didn't want the temple here. That, that was never the issue. The only issue was you've got 120-foot steeple in a 35-foot zone, zoning, right, district.

Well, initially it was 173 feet, right?

That was what they initially wanted, 173 feet 8 inches.

Yes, because that's, that's taller than the Salt Lake Temple.

Which is—

I mean, that, that's— I, I don't unders— I genuinely don't understand why this is the hill the church has decided to die on.

Yeah, well, I think, I think two reasons, and we've talked about a little bit earlier. Um, we're in, uh, Fifth Circuit Court, and Texas has some laws pretty much as strong as that, so they could go fight here maybe even use the state law, and if they did lose, it would just affect Texas. But I really think they would— they felt like their attorneys and the church felt like they had a really strong position because they're in the Fifth Circuit.

So this is, this is an attempt to establish a precedent?

Yes, that's what I think. Where in, in, uh, Yorba Linda, they're in a different court, which is more liberal, that they might have a chance to lose. So if they're going to pick a fight, they'd be picking a fight with us. That's what I think.

From a legal strategy across, you know, United States, makes sense because when you cite case law, right, you know, they can say, well, we went to court, we won, you know, uh, uh, Elders Temple versus, uh, Fairview, Texas, this one, we won that one, etc. And then of course the judge has to take that into account. It's building their case law portfolio. And I— your response to my question is the same response I was going to give. To Jim Bennett's point, I think it is the church setting a precedent. The church has got more money than God himself, hundreds of billions of dollars. Clearly has too much time on its hands and didn't know what to do with all this money other than sue, you know, Fairview, or threaten to sue Fairview, right?

Yeah.

So, uh, could we get into your article? Because I think you— sure, are you comfortable talking? Well, it's, it's It's in the public domain, so it's too late now.

That's exactly right.

There we go. And so the title, uh, the title is, uh, Fairview Mayor: The Church of Latter-day Saints Is Using the Law to Bully Our Town. And that's your feelings and thoughts.

And when you wrote— so everybody knows, before you, you pointed out that you use the full name of the church and it's the newspaper that took out Jesus Christ, right?

Yes. And also they changed the title too. Because I said holding a gun to our heads.

Oh yeah, I was about to say the same thing. So, so you wrote your feelings, thoughts, and your, uh, your views on this. Um, yes, the, the Dallas Morning News removed the Jesus Christ to Jim's point, so that wasn't you, that was them. So what, uh, with all the emotion and, and the complexity and the difficulty. And the— you're clearly somebody that likes to collaborate with, you know, business and community and, and religious organizations and, and government. And, and that's, that's real leadership. And it comes through on this meeting in abundance, that you, you're a strong leader, great vision. And to get things built, you have to collaborate, right? You have to work together with people in a very constructive, in a very meaningful way, and not in a a legalistic way or in, in a, in a bullying camp. Yeah, so what— adversarial, that's, that's the right word for sure.

What—

so what led you to write this article? Uh, could you speak to that? And could you speak to some of the content? I've got it in front of me here right now. And you, you talk about the things we've talked about already, but what— it clearly, you felt strong enough to put your feelings and thoughts in writing, and you've done that. What led you to write it? Just if anything you want to add to that. And what's been the reaction from the church, local community, from the city of Dallas, other groups showing interest in this? What led you to write it? What's been the reaction?

Well, what led me to write it was I wanted to kind of clear the air because, uh, there was a lot of chatter, especially on social media, saying that, um, Well, I, you know, I can't believe the town of Fairview is going back on their word on this, on this, this, the CUP. And, you know, that's just terrible. And then I would write on a couple of them, I relented and I responded back, have you read my initial letter to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that I wrote to the quorum and to the First Presidency? And I sent it to him., and they sent it back to me, go, oh, this isn't bad at all. Because in that letter I said, just what we've talked about, here's how the situation is. Would you voluntarily lower it? But what really— I want to set the record clear because there are several things in the response that the executive director of the temple department said that just weren't true, being that we were asking for this to be relitigated, that we were in essence saying that we wanted them to go back and lower this, which was not true, that it had passed by a supermajority, which really didn't matter, but that wasn't true either. This was just— and then you can read it for me because I don't have it in front of me, but I quote it from his email what he said about it wasn't our responsibility to do that. Can you find that spot? And then I'm trying to find—

you keep talking, I'll try to find it.

Well, okay, that was it. And, and I would say, I would just reverse that and say, is it up to the church to decide what meets the local community's design standards? That's how I would turn that around. Let's look at it that way. And that's why I decided to write the letter to the editor. We actually went down to the editorial board probably 2 weeks before that and kind of pled our case because what we wanted to do, we wanted the Dallas Morning News to maybe side with us and come out with an article, but they said, no, you know what, you already went through the process. God, their reaction was a lot like a lot of members of the church. You went through the process, you gave them whatever reason, you gave them the SUP, and, uh, be thankful we're not criticizing you for it. It's kind of what the Dallas Morning News said. But they did say, agreed, that they would let us— they would publish my article if I was to write one.

So, well, it sounds like a lot of, like, the church institutionally, but even It just sounds like everybody's kind of exhausted and that nobody really wants to relitigate this. Uh, there were winners and losers, and, and people have just kind of accepted that's the way it is and are moving forward. So, so if you're really genuinely trying to get that steeple lowered, uh, you've got kind of an uphill battle, don't you?

Yeah, we do. And, but now it's like I said, we're going through, um, at least for a lot of the town We're going through the grieving process, and that is knowing that we've done everything that we can do, that we have power over, that we've done before this gets built. And that would be an attempt to reach out to what I think is a fair organization so they can hear our plea. And, uh, it's up to them whether they want to respond back. They— well, they've responded. At least the temple director has responded, and that's all we can do. But like I said, we're going to go on and we're going to have this little publicity campaign, and hopefully— because we know that the church listens, listens to the media and they hear things— so we're hoping we can make enough noise that we can get somebody just to respond back to us and just say, well, we're not going to do this, or maybe we can. So, um, that's it. It's a, it's a probably not— I'd say a low probability, but I am still hopeful. I'm still going back in that wonderful experience that I had at the, uh, at the convention center. It was just, it was awesome. I could tell you some other things about that too offline that were great that happened during that that weekend that we were there.

There's one face of a guy that I remember very clearly, uh, but anyway, he just was so animated. I was like, dude, calm down. I guess that's— that wasn't the reaction Mac Wilberg wanted me to have. I was supposed to— anyway, there's a story here that I've told on this podcast before, but I, I think you might be might be helpful to you. Okay, so the church, um, has been remodeling a number of temples. The previous president of the church really, really emphasized temple building. Uh, the current president of the church— now he passed away not very long ago— and the current president has, has scaled that back dramatically. But in the process of that, uh, they were remodeling a lot of sort of pioneer-era temples, including the Salt Lake Temple. There was a temple down in Manti, Utah, that was going to be remodeled. And when they announced that they were going to remodel both of them, they said, and we're going to preserve all of the pioneer workmanship. Don't worry about that. Well, they went in and essentially gutted the Salt Lake Temple.

They took out—

I heard that— murals and all the stuff. And so people got angry. Members of the church got angry. And in Manti, there are a number of murals that are painted by a pioneer-era artist named Minerva Teicher. That have, um, they're just considered sort of, um, landmark icons. I mean, they're kind of a big deal for a lot of the locals. And it was very clear that those were going to come down as well. And there was a huge hue and cry from members of the church. And the church finally came out and said, we have prayed about this and have decided we're going to build a different working temple in the nearby town of Ephraim, and we're going to leave the Manti Temple and its murals, um, as is and open it up as a museum, which people were happy about. But the thing that, that frustrated me about that story is the apostle who announced it said, you need to know that all of the protests had absolutely no bearing on this decision, that this was a revelation that came from God, and your protests didn't have anything to do with this. The church very much does not want to look like it is responding to public pressure. Which, and to me, I just look at that and go, that doesn't make any sense. You know, I was taught as a kid, you know, the church has its policy called the Word of Wisdom. Where that's why we don't drink coffee and tea as well as we don't smoke and we don't drink. And I was taught as a little kid, well, Emma Smith, Joseph's wife, was tired of cleaning tobacco stains out of the floors and went to her husband and said, is this really what God wants? And I thought, well, geez, that's kind of convenient, isn't it? And my teacher said— and I've never forgotten this— they said, that's how revelation works. You ask the question before you get an answer, and I don't understand the church's reluctance to say, "Geez, all of these protests led us to ask this question, and then we got an answer." This idea that revelation can only happen in some sort of vacuum where public pressure doesn't do anything, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, especially when you look at the church's history and so many huge decisions. The decision to end plural marriage, uh, polygamy, uh, came after massive, massive public pressure, uh, that almost resulted in the disincorporation of the church and the seizure of all church assets. You want to tell me that that revelation had nothing to do with any of that? It doesn't, it doesn't pass the smell test. It just doesn't make any sense. So I, I, I, what, what, so I tell you that story just because I think you're up against more than you know, which is, is that it's not, it won't even be enough if you do manage to create enough public pressure together. Yeah, the church has to have some way to save face and feel like, or be able to say with a straight face, these protests, these reactions had nothing to do with the decision, even even though very clearly they would if that decision were to be made.

I guess same thing in 1978 with Blacks in the priesthood too. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And they very much wanted to say, oh, but you know, all of the pressure on the civil rights front, I mean, that was all in the '60s, and we changed in 1978 when the pressure had— and I just thought, guys, don't brag about the fact that you were at least 10 years late to the civil rights movement. And we're still dealing, I think. I mean, Ian and I talked to people. We're still dealing with people that in the church, there's never been sort of a direct repudiation of the racism behind that ban. And so there are still members of the church that cling to racist and outdated ideas that somehow this ban was still something God wanted for reasons unknown, or whatever. I mean, the church just is so reluctant to look like, uh, they respond to their worship, which, which, which is kind of weird. You would think that, that any organization, if they're responsive to their membership or to their employees or to their whoever, uh, they usually get praise for that. Rather than condemnation, and the church doesn't seem to see it that way.

Yeah, sadly, there are too many racists in the church even now, and hopefully that will change as we go forward. I just want to go back to the article, John, if I may, because—

Did you find the quote that was sent back from the—

Oh, I think it did. This is kind of tied to— and I'll come to the quote in a second, but We talked earlier about the, you know, you've got the city bylaw process, right, the traditional conventional process for putting an application in and planning and going through that process, the procurement process and engineering drawings, etc., etc., reviews. So that's the standard regular process. Then if there's an issue, you've got the legal process, which is what the church has deployed, unfortunately. And of course you've got those legal opinions that, you know, arguments back and forward. And in here, as I'm reading it, there's a sense of that you feel— the impression I get from the article is that you feel you've got, you've won the court of public opinion, that you feel that the majority of the community members support and side with the town. Is that a fair interpretation of it.

Yeah, that's fair. I think they're supportive. There, there are a few that say, hey, you know what, just like what you said, Jim Bennett, hey, you're fighting an uphill battle, let's just go on and just accept this. And I'm saying, yeah, I realize that, but there's a healing process. And I think these steps that we need to do with this last little push, to know that we've tried everything before, uh, before it's built.

So And then when does your public consultation begin? I'm sorry, when does the public, the formal public consultation begin? Has that begun already? Is there a formal public consultation meeting happening?

Well, okay, well, right now, like I said, we started our site, um, fairviewspeaks.com, and we're just going to kind of just talk about the efforts and what we've done to, uh, bring more awareness. And this is all directed at the, uh, leadership at the LDS Church to see if they'll listen to us and respond back. We have a, we have a timer or a clock that says it's been this many days and they haven't responded back to us yet. Um, we're going to go on, we have signs to put out just to let— so we can just send that message that, hey, we're— yes, you have the right to do this, but let's be— let's talk about this and let's be good neighbors. And see what happens.

Yeah, because it's common in these kind of projects, and, and this may have happened, so forgive me if I'm not as informed as I, as I should be, but it's common for the, the project owner to put on a big event over several days and to showcase what the building is going to look like, what it is, what it's for, its purpose, its function, what it will look like, its size and scale, and to put on big billboards so people can show up, public can show up and have a conversation with professionals, little workshops maybe, maybe a big opening conversation about what the temple is. And that is usually led by senior people in the organization or the project owner. Has that happened yet, and if not, will that happen, that kind of level of consultation?

Well, it hasn't happened yet. And also, typically, from what I understand, when there's a groundbreaking, there's a ceremony there that they invite local officials. Well, no one was notified of the groundbreaking that was here in Fairview, so that didn't happen.

You see, before the groundbreaking happens, it's, it's courteous to have a public, you know, if there's public concern, right, to have a full comprehensive public consultation process to show images, visuals, illustrations of the temple and etc., and to answer many, many questions of concern from the public. You're saying that that's not happened, but isn't that in your— written into your bylaws?

No, they don't have to do that.

All right, okay. And then just going to the— Jim, do you have any comments on that before I move to the article here? Do you have anything you want to I—

Ian had said something, uh, about you trying to actually visit the temple grounds and being asked to leave.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh right, okay. Um, that was a couple years ago, I take it. Let me get— it wasn't recent, but let me tell you that we were about to— this is like maybe in September of a couple years ago, a couple years ago, right before we had the mediation, and people, they were saying, you should go visit the grounds. You won't be able to go in, but just go to the grounds and see how wonderful it is. Well, it was a Saturday, and I was on my— and actually I went to a funeral of a vocal majority member had passed away, and we're going to sing at his funeral, so We're driving right by the Dallas Temple. I said, you know what, I'm going to stop by here and see what's happening here. So I drove in, beautiful. But the Dallas Temple, I think it's only about 95 feet. The steeple is only about 95 feet tall. It was wonderful. I saw families, and I think there were some weddings that maybe were going on. So, um, I drive in and I get a park And I took some pictures in my car as I was driving around, but when I got out to just kind of walk around and look, I put my phone, which has my camera, in my pocket and just was walking around the, uh, the grounds, just looking at it. So, and I had a gentleman that approached me and asked me, he asked me why I was here, what was I doing here. And I said I was, uh, just looking around. He says, well, we got a lot of things going on here. Like, I would like for you to leave. And so, um, I didn't think a whole lot of it, um, and I left. But see, you have to realize, you know, um, I've been stopped for driving while Black a lot, for good or bad. And so, and let me, let me tell you one, a couple times, um, like I'll see somebody— I'm 6'5" and weigh about 250 pounds, so I'm not a little guy.

Hey, you and me both, man.

Okay, well then, you know, and so, and sometimes I want to stop and help people on the road, but then I think they may be more afraid of me by me getting out and offering help than not. So, uh, I don't, but maybe I'll call someone to help them. And I just figured that just for whatever reason, I don't know whether I threaten them, that I'm a— I think I'm one of the nicest people I know, but I might not be. I think I am. And I just said— I didn't think anything of it until we were at the mediation and, uh, they said, well, you ought to go to the temple grounds. I said, well, I did, and this is what happened to me. They just were just flabbergasted that that happened. They apologized. And I didn't think anything of it. And then I was talking to the folks over at Mormonish, and we were talking about something, and I just happened to mention it. The conversation came up and I just mentioned that happened to me all those years ago. But, um, the church responded the right way, I think. They said, hey, we're sorry, that shouldn't have happened. And who knows who it was. It could have been someone— I don't know who it was that was there. It probably was a member there, though.

But, but it may not even have been— yeah, like an administrator had anything to do with the temple, right? It could have been anyone.

And I really didn't think anything of it. I really did.

So, uh, well, I'm glad to hear that that isn't something that happened recently to the mayor of the town, because when I heard that, I thought that that's unacceptable.

Yeah, that was a couple years ago.

Okay.

And it wasn't— they weren't threatening. They were kind. They just asked me to leave. Okay. But I'm sorry that happened. Yeah, thank you. It was beautiful.

It was wonderful.

I welcome the temple. I just wish it was a little bit— the steeple was a little bit shorter, that's all.

Can you just— I don't know how many people know this, but can you— I mean, because a lot of the people who, um, in the church, uh, they hear, okay, you don't like the steeple, and there's, there's this kind of persecution complex in the church, you know.

And I understand that somewhat. Um, give an example. Maybe this is an example. I used to live in Coppell. It was another suburb, a pretty nice, pretty nice place to live. And we had been there for a few months, and I get this citation saying that my limbs on my tree were too low. They were hanging over the sidewalk, and I needed to cut them down. Now, my blackness says I got singled out because I was Black, but in truth, I got singled out because I was in violation of the zoning law. So, but that was my first reaction. I have to, I have to sometimes sit back and go, nope, don't make it anything that it isn't. And it's true that the, uh, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been persecuted. And so I can see they can have the same kind of mentality that I had or have for the same reaction, even though it has nothing to do with that. But I can understand why people would, would think that. I really do.

Can you frame it? Because the way I've heard it I mean, this is a town that, you know, keep it country. Uh, you've got ordinances that avoid light pollution so that you can, you know, all of that. Can you just sort of, in very practical terms, removing religion from the equation entirely, uh, why it is that any building, whether it's a church or, you know, anything, why a building of that height being lit like that, uh, is, is a problem for your town.

It doesn't belong in a residential neighborhood, something that we have a 35-foot limit for, for buildings. Yeah, and the question is, if this happens, what, what about the next one that comes in that's in a, in a neighborhood, you know? And that's the, that's the real reason. It just doesn't— and we have dark skies ordinances like you, you mentioned., and we've got a building now. Now it's going to be on, I think, 19 hours a day, every day. And this is in a residential neighborhood. We've got like people that their backyards are going to be where this, where this, uh, temple is. It just— you've got a building that's as tall, not, not including the base, as the Statue of Liberty in a residential neighborhood. Commercial district, have at it.

Yeah, John, I would hate that if, you know, all that light pollution. You know, when you do this thing, you have a visual impact, you have a noise impact, you have a light impact assessment done. I would absolutely hate that. I just want to flip to the church side here because in your article— and I'll just— okay, points briefly— but in your article that you where you share your thoughts and feelings. He said, you say that the church's recent letter claims it already made very significant concessions, reducing the steeple and cutting square footage by nearly a third, and that the town council approved the result by a supermajority. You then say, let me be precise, the council passed the settlement on a narrow vote under the threat of litigation pressure, not as an endorsement of the design under the ordinance, under the codes. The town agreed not because the outcome was fair, but because the threat was ruinous legal fees left us no real choice. Our community knows it, and they are still angry.

Yep, that's it. That, that's, that's it in a nutshell. It feels like this was forced on us. It feels like we never had any say. It feels like it's not a partnership. And people are going to resent that for a while. It may be generations before we get over that.

And do you know what's interesting, which I only learned this, or maybe realize this to the extent on this conversation with you, John, and with you, Jim. I may have thought this before, but not in the way I'm going to describe. The church has a, uh, and you helped me enormously understand this in a way I hadn't understood, John. So the church has a history of being persecuted, and when the persecution reaches a level of intensity like over polygamy, you know, where the, the US government is confiscating land and property, the church is under immense pressure. When it was practicing polygamy secretly, telling people it wasn't practicing but it really was, and then people found out in the local community, they ran the Mormons out, right? The church has its own version of events, but a lot of the community members didn't want, uh, the practice of polygamy in these, you know, looking at this, the history. So the church was, uh, persecuted according to the church and fled over the mountains and eventually arrived in Salt Lake. And, and it's narrative and its language and its history is that it's a church of— it's been a church that has been persecuted and its members have been persecuted. And the lesson from that surely is that you learn from that persecution, you know, like your experience, like my experience in life, right? Anything, you know, are we being persecuted or is it our own perspective? Perspective, right? You know, let's step back and check this. We may be maybe being persecuted. That might be true, but let's look at it through, you know, uh, clinical eyes and look at the facts, right? You think— here's my point— you think the church, with its history of being persecuted, would not now go out with $300-400 billion in its pocket and start persecuting, you know, and bullying small towns and bullying mayors of small towns into submission, right? So you've got this flip of being persecuted now turning into the persecutor, right?

Right.

Uh, you know, the victim now into the oppressor. And the church will lose this, in my opinion, will lose the, uh, the court of public opinion. It will lose that because you talk about, um, again in your article you say that the community knows it and they are angry about it. Could you measure in some way, um, not numerically, of course. How do you measure the sense of anger and frustration from the non-Mormon community members in your town?

Well, there are several ways, you know. I've had— there's one group that's been a very vocal group that they're talking about picketing the site after it opens up and just doing that because they felt— they feel like they've been bullied. We have another group that what they want to do is make our laws even more restrictive so it doesn't happen again. We have some other people that are disappointed in the town council because they felt like we caved in. So, and we've got to live with all these repercussions. Like I said, that steeple, the church still has a great opportunity to decide how people are going to look at that church and other churches. There are other churches, um, LDS churches. Is it going to be something that's going to be welcoming or is it going to be adversarial? And that's, that's going to be their choice to make.

Are there other plans? Can you speak to— I've heard there's some ideas to develop the retail section across from the temple. You've got a subway there. Looked at Street View.

You go to the— that's not in Fairview, that's in Allen. We have nothing to do. And that's what people were saying, well, you got across the street and that's a— it's commercial stuff across the street. Yes, it is. It's neighborhood, uh, commercial, which has a height of 40 feet over there, but it's in the— it's in the city of Allen. It's not in— matter of fact, let me go on and tell you this, um, We have most of the town, probably about 80% of the town, not the commercial district, are large lots, 1, 2, 3, 10-acre lots. And because of that, there's no, there's no sewer because they don't need sewer. They use septic systems. Now you've got this church that's coming in and they're going to actually have to, because there's no sewer there because it wasn't designed for any kind of commercial use like that. They actually had to go to Allen and do a bore to connect to the Allen sewer system, right? Because it never was meant to have, uh, any type of use like that. It never was. And I can go back and tell you, about 3 or maybe 4 years ago, we had a developer that came in. They wanted to put in a medical office on that same site. And show you how we're not picking on people, the residents came out and said, no, you do not change that zoning. This is residential zoning. So they're not singling out the LDS Church, right?

They—

this is— that was not the intent.

So, and so Stacy Road, is that the town boundary?

Yes, Stacy Road is the town boundary.

Gosh, yeah.

So south of Stacy Road is in Allen. North Stacy Road is in Fairview.

Gotcha. Right. Well, we are super grateful that you've taken time to come on to Inside Out. We are coming to the end of our conversation here, John. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

It's been a real honor to meet with you. You are, you know, my first impression is that you are just a wonderful individual. You're a collaborative leader. You're You want to do this the right way. I, uh, I, I got a sense of frustration and, um, from the article that you wrote, uh, so I think, um, I think it will make it a big difference. I think I've always been advised years ago, and I think you're doing this as well, if you do the right thing, um, and you be right by people and you follow good processes and you do it in the right way, uh, good will come your way. And I think, uh, you know, the town of Fairview, I think, I think this will I think there'll be an arrangement where both the Mormon Church and the town can come to some compromise. Um, before we close here, I want to give Jim Bennett a couple minutes to give any comments or thoughts or feelings that you might have. Jim?

No, I'm just grateful for the chance to get to know you a little bit. I'm thrilled to realize that we have this connection. Yes, we were in the same room 6 years ago, 7 years ago now.

So that's like what, we've got 160 people. How many people are in the tab qua?

Um, 350, 360 are seated on any given Sunday. I, I think that there are more than that. Yeah, in the actual— and when we go on tour, I mean, we also include the orchestra. There's like 100-something-plus people in the orchestra. But it's just so clear that you're not coming at this from a position of hostility. To the church. It's so, it's so very clear to me, and I think it's clear to anybody that would spend 5 minutes with you that that's the case. And, and I know that members of the church and leaders of the church, uh, are good and reasonable people, uh, on the whole. And it just kind of breaks my heart that this process sort of seems to have broken down. And, and, um, created ill feeling where I don't think that was necessary and, and I think could still be repaired. I would love to hear from you that, that the Q15 got back to you and said, oh my goodness, yes, let's at least have a conversation. I mean, if, if they want to make the case to you that this steeple is just so essential, uh, that they're willing to do all of this and engender this kind of bad feeling in the town to do it. It'd be nice if they were willing to make that case to you directly, but I don't speak for them. I can't, other than to say I just, I, I'm grateful to just get a sense of who you are, who you're, what your town is, and to see very much that you're not coming at this with a desire to be enemies with anybody.

No, no.

And I think that's important that people realize that.

May I say one thing? Sure. Okay, okay. Let me tell you, um, a story that I learned from my father. When, uh, back when I was in high school, I guess I was maybe 16 years old, so it was a long time ago, my job was to cut the grass. And then we moved from Detroit, Michigan to Oak Park, Michigan, and Oak Park, Michigan was primarily Jewish. In fact, we were the only non-Jews on the block, and my job was to cut the grass. And my dad told me, and I still remember this, he says, "Son, you are not to cut the grass on Friday or Saturday." He said, and this is what stuck with me all this time, he said, "Even though we have the right to do it, it's not the right thing to do. We want to be good neighbors.". And my message to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, yes, you have the right to build the 120-foot steeple, but you want to be a good neighbor. And I just ask that you be a good neighbor. That's it.

Can't say more than that. Jim Bennett, thank you for your closing comments there. Mayor Hubbard, it's been an absolute honor to have you on Inside Out. Thank you for your openness, your transparency, your interest in, you know, trying to fix this. I think people that listen to this and watch this will make their own judgment and a view and your motivations, and I believe it will be very positive. I really, I really do. And I hope that, to Jim Bennett's point, that, you know, a solution can be found. Before we close, When you and I spoke on the phone a week or so ago, I mentioned to you that President Oaks, the current prophet, the leader of the Church, actively recruited me, interviewed me, and appointed me into a position many years ago. If he was watching this right now, if he was listening to this and looking at you and watching this as the mayor of Fairview, what message would you have for President Oaks?

I think the message that I just said. I would love to just sit down and talk with you so we can be friends, be neighbors. That would be it.

Jim, thank you as always for being a big part of, equal part, full part of Inside Out. Your contributions are extraordinary as always. And Mayor Hubbard, thank you for taking time.

Thank you.

For sharing your thoughts and feelings. We, uh, we hope that they'll find a solution and, uh, confident that, uh, you know, that, uh, that will happen. Uh, best to you and your council members and to all of your community, and hopefully that, uh, you know, this ill feeling can subside and turn into something positive and kind and respectful and thoughtful. Mayor Hubbard, thank you.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

All right, I'm going to press end recording.

Oh, all right.