A Conversation with George Stewart

Hello and welcome to a very special episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and Ian Wilkes will be joining me along with George Stewart. Who will be our very first interview on Inside Out. We'll take it from there.

I just want to say what a pleasure it is to see you, to see your face. Just, we love you so much. You're so, um, you've been such a wonderful part of our lives with Debbie and the family, and, um, just great, uh, an honor to, to have our relationship with you. And likewise, uh, with Jim, I'm, um, honored actually to introduce you to Jim. Who is also, like you, George, a lifelong friend, somebody like you who I love dearly. And Jim Bennett and I share a unique history as being missionaries in Scotland, you know, back in the '80s there with Prison Banks. And we've kept in touch and we've, you know, back and forward, and we've spent time with each other from time to time. And then we decided to put this Inside Out podcast together. Which is trying to take it—

thank you—

I try to take a balanced view of the church, a balanced view, somewhere in the middle. And Jim has been absolutely, you know, uh, you know, a chief arti— you know, architect in regards to putting the podcast together, frankly. And, uh, just honored to introduce him to you. So I'll stop talking and maybe Jim just, um, could do a little bit of introduction to each other, and that I think that will provide some context for this conversation.

Okay, go ahead, Jim.

Well, sure. So George, where were— did you— you served as bishop according to Ian 3 different times, if that's right?

Even more than that. It was about 20 years, which is pretty astounding. I guess they just didn't have anybody else that would say yes. I found a man who couldn't say no. So yeah, I was a bishop in places like the Edinburgh Stake and the Glasgow Stake and places like East Kilbride, Thornliebank, and Pollok. So if you weren't in any of those branches or works, then I would have been there maybe.

I got close to some of those, but I never was in any of those specifically.

Um, okay.

But, uh, you know, I, I— so I served from '87 to '89. Ian and I bumped into each other there. Uh, my, uh, father served in Scotland, uh, wow, 30 years before I did. It was back when it was the British Mission and he was assigned to be the president of the Scottish District. So, so he served there in the '50s. And my great-grandfather is David O. McKay, who obviously has those Scottish roots. And I got the opportunity to serve up in Thurso, Scotland, which is where the McKays came from.

Yeah, the cottages up there are in the field.

Yeah, well, we, we went and visited the, the Mackay Croft, and it's a crumbling ruin. And, and I've since seen a recent picture of it, and all that's left is a single wall. And, you know, but given that, that I mean, that's 150-something years old, so it's not surprising that not much of it is left. But Ian has told me a little bit about your story. Can you give us just sort of a broad overview and give the people who are listening to the podcast your background?

Yeah, I've been involved in the church for 50-odd years. So I joined in the '60s, and my biggest influence from a mission president was David B. Haight. He was like a spiritual father to me and looked after the young people. He was an amazing man, the mayor of Palo Alto, and came out on his mission to Scotland and ran the Scottish on an Irish mission for a long period of time, along with a man called Elder Pengry and his wife, Janice Barbin, that they met on their mission. So yes, I joined the church, as I say, as a 15-year-old boy. I was Protestant prior to that, and I have served, as I said, I've served as a bishop for over 20 years and served in a stake presidency. I was actually Ian's— a member of the stake presidency when Ian was a bishop, and he was a really good bishop, very socially concerned, and had the police all over his place. I believe there was a murder in his area, and Ian allowed the police to use a building as a center for the police investigation. So Stephen Kerr was my state president, and I told Ian about my experience with Gerald Lund, and that was quite scary. But I have 4 children, married to an amazing woman. My son is Mark Stewart. Who is an area authority for Scotland and Ireland. He was in our house just about half an hour ago, and he's now going up to Dundee. And my other son is a member of a stake presidency in Fenn in London. So my children are very church-involved, and I have 18 grandchildren. And 3 great-grandchildren, and many of them are involved in the church. So I'm the bad guy, I'm the black sheep, I'm the one who saw the light, who read Galatians and realized Paul was talking about me as becoming one of the accursed. So I don't want my kids to be accursed. So I've had that. On the positive side, The church experience was very good for me. It helped me as a young man to formulate my life, and I was involved in very high-level management, and I was able to use my church experience to get me through that. So I'm not negative about the church. I'm just sad about it that it meant so much and it's fallen so short in reality, and that's terrible. So that's basically me. I do suffer from ill— I have vascular dementia, and that's what makes communication difficult. Example, trying to work out how to get onto the system tonight. But I do live in a sheltered home in Bridgwater Island, which we love, and I have an incredible, wonderful wife who looks after me. So at that space, I'm not very interesting as a person. I am what I am, but, uh, massive to meet you, Jim Bennett, and also I know Ian Bennett well. So lovely to be here with you tonight. I hope it's worthwhile for you guys. Maybe there's something that I will say. I must say that I am a Christian, an Evangelical Christian, and attend a church called Cornerstone in Sterling. They get 350 people every Sunday. That's bigger than some of our stake conferences that we have in the LDS Church. Great pastor who has just taken to me and looks after me very well. Very Christian. That's me. That's all I am and what I am.

Well, I think you're more interesting than you think you are.

I was about to say that. I agree. Jim Bennett, I just want to, you know, I chatted about George with you briefly, but George, um, is one of the most amazing, kindest people we've ever met. He was incredible support as a bishop. Being bishop was— I found it very difficult, frankly, um, and, and a lot of the time I was completely on my deathbed. Some of the challenges and issues that were presented were— it was difficult. And George was an extraordinary, um, person to go to for counsel, very wise and very kind, and he's far more interested in what he makes out to be And you know, the most important— someone said to me the other day, um, sometimes we remember— we might not remember what people say, uh, we might remember what they do, but we certainly remember how they make us feel. And George has this, um— I'm not trying to embarrass you, George— but he has this knack, this ability to make people feel good about themselves and believe in themselves. And I was always grateful for his wise counsel and being able to be there and to someone to go to and talk to. So he's a just a lovely, lovely man. And his wife equally is just an extraordinary lady. She really is. She's, she's so sweet. She's such a sweet lady. And George, I think you've on your— I was sharing with Jim briefly that in your transition out of the LDS Church, at some point, I think you've had some conversations on a few podcasts about your experience with— was it with the Church of Scotland minister?

Or—

yeah, the pastor of the Cornerstone Church did an interview with me which went on to YouTube, and you can see that under George Stewart, ex-Mormon, and has received 107,000 hits to date. Just checked it tonight. So people have been interested in it and are watching it, but it's still on there, still on YouTube. So yeah, if you want to find out more about me, that's a worthwhile venture. But he was a good man. And I must stress that as a Protestant, he did not run down the Mormon Church to me. He stayed very, very on the line, listened to me, took me under his wing, and taught me the Bible again in the way I should have read it when I was younger.

Well, in talking to Ian, and I saw some of the text messages you were exchanging, uh, you're talking to him about some of the seminal moments, uh, that, uh, really shook your faith in the LDS Church, and particularly the conversation with Elder Gerald Lund. And I was wondering if maybe you might be willing to expand on that and tell that story.

I'm happy to do that, but I do sympathize with inside-outside attitude towards the church. There is tremendous good in the church. Wonderful people, great leaders. I did write a book called, uh, The Mormon Pioneers, and it was on Amazon, but it was about the great leaders that existed in the Mormon Church in Britain. Just amazing men, wonderful leaders. But yes, I was in the stake presidency at the time along with Stephen Kerr, And they decided to change the Stake Presidency, which was fine. Along came Elder Lund, obviously a writer of Work and the Glory and books like that. Very, very intelligent, highly clever guy. And he interviewed, as they do, for a new leader. I had no ambition to be that. I wasn't that well at the time, but it was his reaction to my wife and I when he brought us into the office, and he said these words, which dug deep into me. He said, 'George,' he didn't say George, he just said, 'The people love you, but the Lord doesn't want you.' And that was a massive blow to me as a person. I had served the church for 50-odd years, gave up a lot financially and time-wise and family-wise, but to have him say that the Lord no longer wanted me, and as I say, I didn't expect anything out of the interview. All I wanted was a hug from Mr. Leader, and to be honest with you, and it's cruel to say it, but I saw a corporate man in front of me, looking at me and judging me to the benefit to the church, not to him. And all I wanted him to say was, "George, thank you for your time and your effort." And that would have been all I wanted. So yes, it was tough, and I'm afraid I lost respect for him. And that started my de-escalation from the Church over a period of 2 to 3 years.

That's just such a harsh thing to say. I can't imagine why he would frame it that way. I mean, if he— we appreciate your input, we've decided to choose a different stake president.

Yeah, and I wasn't— I must stress that somebody might listen to this and go, 'Oh, he's just upset.' I had no desire to be— I had done 50 years of service. To go in for another 10 years as a Stake President was not my goal. I honestly just wanted them to say thank you from the church, and it didn't come. It just was a hard feeling, and my poor wife was in tears. They go, let's see what's going on.

Jim Bennett, that was the same day, same event, in which I also had a very negative experience, albeit different, with Elder Lund in that office. Because I— they, they ask you— I was interviewed by him. The camera was in the room, and I don't know if I was— I think I was being— I was a candidate, but I think the, the new presidency wanted to call me, or the old presidency wanted to talk with George on the break, would have called me as a bishop. But I was interviewed as a candidate from what Elder Lund was saying. And my experience with Elder Lund on that day was absolutely awful. I left that room. I think I shared this with you, Jim. That was the, that was the same day, the same event where I met Elder Lund and David and I met Elder Lund. And he was, well, I won't, I won't tell you what I really think on here, but he was just a really, I came away from that meeting feeling absolutely empty. Anyway, I want this to focus on George here, but I just want you to know, Jim, that's the experience I had on that very day with Elder Lund in the Edinburgh building, the Edinburgh Chapel. Okay.

Well, I mean, that's— I have never met Elder Lund, so I don't have a— I read the Work and the Glory books back in the day and found them to be somewhat frustrating, only that they were a bit like Forrest Gump. You know, you had this family that was inserted into all of the important events of church history but didn't participate in any of them. They just sort of viewed it. And I guess that was kind of clever, but I thought it sort of ran out of steam. But my wife and I drove cross-country in the summer of '94 across the United States when we were moving to Utah from Washington, D.C.. And we stopped at church history sites and we stopped in Kirtland. And we brought up the Work and the Glory series to the missionaries at the Newell K. Whitney Store. And they said, you know, that's fiction, right? He says, because we've had many people come through here and say they're praying as hard as they can for Joshua Steed to join the Church. He was the sort of black sheep in the fictional family. And, and I kind of got a kick out of that. So, so I have no sense of this man on a personal level, but it's a— was he abrasive? I mean, was he, was he cold? I mean, what, what was the demeanor? I can imagine him saying something like that or somebody saying something like that with kind of a smile on their face and maybe sort of softening the blow a little bit. I mean, it's just an awful thing to say, but was he an abrasive sort of guy?

He came over— sorry. He came— if you understand, I spent my life in business, and I was used to hard businessmen who made hard, cold decisions, but I never expected to find it in the church. But there in front of me, as I said before, was a corporate manager who was doing his duty in the way that he felt. And I respect that he saw in me something he didn't like or didn't want me to be. And that's okay. But as I said before, all it needed was a bit of kindness. And both Jean and I would have left there feeling a million dollars. I mean, later on I served a mission in Australia, both Jane and I, um, in which I actually lost all of my savings. It's interesting, I noticed that there's one of the General Authorities now pushing older couples to go on missions, and I felt like crying when I saw it, because when we were told that we were going to Australia, we were told it would be £1,000 a month. It actually ended up at £2,000 a month. And over the 18 months, I lost £34,000 to £36,000 and had to sell my new home and my car when I came home and moved to a smaller home. And All of that was no disrespect, and I don't want to speak badly about church leaders, but my stake president at that time, who wasn't Stephen Kerr, never once phoned or wrote to me to ask how I was doing financially or health-wise. So I came back with a bitterness about my, and it was some lovely moments as missions can be, but I came home with a bitterness that I had thrown away my, my pension savings, uh, for no real good reason. I should have been discouraged, but I was encouraged and told when I did complain that I liked faith. No, I didn't. I disliked the proper money. And today, I don't know how many people have left from Scotland on missions, but while the figure is not high, the people in Scotland are not geared to spend massive amounts of money on missions. They just don't live— I know Americans sometimes plan for their later missions and have capital, but I still think in this day and age, It's a big expectation of old people, retired people to go away to all parts of the world. But still, missions are tremendous experience and I wouldn't trade mine. Okay, sorry.

Well, so was that the moment, I mean, when you came home from Australia and you saw just how financially devastating that was to you. Was that the final straw? I mean, what was the catalyst that made you decide to resign your membership?

It wasn't the big thing, but it was part of the Richard Condie experience, the Elder Lund experience. The awareness of the wealth of the church, and the fact is that I ruined my financial life because of unwise leadership who didn't have proper discernment to say, George, don't go away, or maybe send you more local, but, you know, they decided that they would send me to the other side of the world to get rid of me, probably.

Now, you said Richard Condie experience. Can you talk a little bit about that?

This is an interesting one. I feel as if I'm downing the leaders of the church, but Richard Condie came to a meeting. I was a member of the stake presidency at that time, and he had a meeting in the mission room, It was President Green was the mission president, and he came to there and sat down, and we were having a meal, and I turned around and said to Elder Condie, "Why does the Church not take a stronger stand about gun laws?" That was during the time of Columbine and, in our country, Dunblane, which is a horrific massacre of children. And school teachers. And I was unsure, but I knew that the question had put him off course. And he said, Brother Stuart, he said, do you know that the Americans are born with guns in their coats? And through the Constitution, we're allowed to carry guns. And I did understand that, but I said, but Why do they need AT-45s or whatever they are? And at the end of the day, so anyway, he wasn't happy with me and I could tell, and I saw that cocky look again in the eyes of a church leader that I had respected. Funny thing into that was next day, we went to the Preston Temple and I was walking through the cloakroom And there he was, and he looked at me and said, it's amazing who you meet when you don't have a gun. Now, was he joking?

Probably.

But there was that chilling feeling that had come through me that maybe he just meant that. And I still don't understand gun laws. And I hate to see what's happened to Britain as the guns become more prevalent. So yeah, that was, that wasn't a good experience. And up to then, I respected Elder Condie. And you'll probably deny that that happened as well, probably, Elder Lund, but it did happen. I'm not a lying man. These were real experiences, and my wife experienced them as well. She's a strong LDS member, still goes to church.

And she still goes to church?

Yeah, she goes on a Sunday, and I go to the church that I attend because my daughter's still involved in the church, as are my two daughters and my two boys. So yeah, I'm the black sheep of the family, and I go on my grace way, loving the belief in grace and not works. Yeah, okay. Is this being held? Is it? I just don't know.

Yes, George, this absolutely helps. This, I mean, the, the, one of the main objectives of Inside Out is to help people. So, you know, when we share our stories, our experiences, uh, it's astonishing actually at, um, the feedback that we've had. That something we said at some point in the podcast has actually helped individuals enormously at different stages in their experience. And so, and that was the reason why I wanted to do this with Jim Bennett predominantly, is to help others. So yeah, your experiences are so valid and so important. It's very courageous, you know, from an emotional perspective as well, to share, to open up.. And it can be quite therapeutic, I found, as well, you know, where we talk openly and, and, and show a little bit of vulnerability. When we do that, for the most part, people are kind and thoughtful, and they, they respond and react with almost always very positive comments, because it's difficult to open up and to share things. But if we can help others, then, then that's a, that's a really good thing.

Well, it's interesting that you would mention Grace, the that you see sort of a conflict between the Christian doctrine of grace and what the LDS Church teaches. I mean, I'm still an active member of the Church, a believing member of the Church. I'm actually a member of the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square, which is just a lovely way to participate in the Church, I think. But the older I get, the more I explore my own personal faith. The more I think you're on to something with regard to your understanding of grace, because I think we are so afraid of that word in the church because we don't want to sound like Protestants. We don't want to sound— but grace is a doctrine that is all over the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible.

There's plenty.

And, and, and, and the older I get, the more I realize how little I can actually do to impress God.

Then you can—

it's grace that, that carries me, that saves me, that, that sustains me. I mean, was, was there— so, so in terms of your faith journey, Yes. I mean, you've talked about moments where you've had bad experiences with church leaders, but was there a moment where you went, okay, I believe something different than what the church believes? I believe something different about what the Bible is teaching than what I'm hearing at church. I mean, was there kind of an aha moment or did that just happen gradually?

One of my greatest— and I I admire people, it was Grant Palmer, and I loved his books, and he talks about grace. I went through my life thinking I was never doing enough. This wonderful comment, "After all you can do." What nonsense. You know, that's an impossibility. So when I started to look outside the church, I began to read the New Testament again in great detail, and I was fascinated by Galatians when Paul talked to the Galatians and he said, what in heaven's name are you doing? Why have you drifted so far away from the church? Why do you believe angels, which I thought was fascinating, and men, and stayed away from the church. And I then read in Corinthians, and I read about the fact is that the true gospel of Jesus Christ is that Christ died on the cross. He died on the cross and rose on the third day. And if we believe that, we are saved by grace because Christ died for all of our sins. We can't do— one church leader told me that we can do so much, but Christ can do so much, but we have to do the rest. That's not true. Christ died clearly to forgive our sins. And I do believe this might be a bit controversial, but I believe God and Jesus Christ are the same. Beings. I believe it's a three— it's God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Three in one. I never believed that. I believed I could become a god, and now applying it with polygamous wives and tons of babies. I believed all that stuff. And now that I look back in it through the New Testament, I have come to a new awareness of who I am. And, and I'm thankful at 77 I'm kind of glad that God plucked me out of Mormonism and placed me into the evangelical church that I'm in that only teaches on a Sunday the Bible. They start at Genesis and work their way right through, and it's wonderful, wonderful feeling and great knowledge about the Bible, and I didn't spend enough time.

I was too busy locked into all the other books of the church, So anyway, yeah, I kind of want to reinforce some of what you said because the scripture you quoted from the Book of Mormon, or, you know, after all we can do, there's a scripture in 2 Nephi that says we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do. Modern scholars— there's a man by the name of Dan McClellan particularly that I'm thinking of— wrote a long paper where he demonstrated that that is a 19th century phrase that means in spite of all we can do. It doesn't mean what we have interpreted it to mean, that the Book of Mormon, that language is saying essentially it's grace that saves us regardless of what we do, in spite of what we do. And, and we've taken that, we've taken that language and applied sort of a 20th century, 21st century veneer to it and said, oh, it means, you know, you really have to work really, really, really, really hard, and then you get 99% of the way and grace takes you over the finish line. And there have been a number of thoughtful Latter-day Saint scholars that have pushed back on that over the years. But I don't think that's filtered out through the entire church. And in fact, the temple ceremony was recently changed and that scripture was put into the temple ceremony. And the implication is, I think, with the incorrect interpretation, with that idea of you got to work and work and work and work and what you do will never, ever, ever be enough, but keep working, work harder, and then grace we'll finish the last little 1% and top you off and then you'll be fine. So from that perspective, I think you are on to something and I think that the church is catching up with you, but it's taking longer than it should.

I don't think they'll ever use anything I say or do to help. And I hope it was a tremendously hard experience to walk away from the church, to put in my name for resignation. It took the church 7 months to get my name off the record, but I felt so strongly about it that I wanted to make sure that it was done properly. And I wasn't— I mean, there's, there's a hundred— it's not just one or two or three things, it's I would say 100 things, and that's about things like polygamy, also, uh, stone in the heart, the attitude to LGB, um, you know, there's so many things that just don't ring true, and that I couldn't live that way anymore, and I feel so clear-minded now, today, about my spiritual life, and who I am, And I know, unlike the way that— God bless him— but unlike the way that Brother Lund treated me, I know that Jesus is just going to cuddle me and welcome me home. And that could be— with vascular dementia, I probably have a prognosis of about maybe 5 or 6 years of life left. Depending how bad it gets. So I won't see my maker, but I'm confident that Jesus, God, will just cuddle me. And what more can one ask? I don't need a church, a wealthy £140 billion church to get me through. I just need to know who Christ is and I love him. Sorry, that's a bit dramatic. There you go.

I know, I appreciate you sharing that with us. Is the church you're attending now LGBTQ friendly?

That's a very good question. They are Bible studiers, so therefore there is an element of homophobia in there because they read the scriptures, but it's not open. As I say, on a Sunday we get 350 people, and that's a mixture of lawyers, teachers, teenagers, young children. And in this day and age, to see 350 people attending church is quite an experience and very moving. My favorite hymn in the hymnal is 'In Christ Alone.' I love that hymn so much. 'Our God is an amazing God' is another. But when they're preaching, they're preaching to Christ. Their preachings and prayers are all to Christ and worshiping him, not to man. Praise to the man is never sung in the church. And God bless Joseph. He was a very complex and innovative and incredibly sponge-like in his attitude to religion. He, uh, 17 million people are quite an achievement, but his life didn't represent that. His affair with Fanny Alger, his marrying 15-year-old girls, just completely was against all that I believed in, and I couldn't continue to support him. So I resigned. Never heard a phone call from Elder Condier or Elder Lund saying, 'Sorry to see you go.' Nope, they were like— Funnily enough, an interesting thing is that a month ago, I was interviewed by a man called Jim Elliott. Now, Jim Elliott is the social media person for the Church, and he was over in Scotland interviewing Scottish people Until this day, I don't know why the state president invited me to go along, but I was interviewed by him in Dún, and he was a good man. I think in his days he had been a producer of programs like Friends and Cheers and those kind of programs, but now in charge of social media. So I'll be interested to see how that comes out. His last question was to me, well, where is your faith today? And that was me, that was a stumper, because I had to say, I really don't want to talk about that in this kind of interview because the state president trusted me. But my answer is, I don't believe it. And it's not, it's not the religion that I believed in or was prop up.

And so, yeah, George, I had a question. You know, you were talking about your resignation, and you've— there's a lot of depth to your hurt and pain that you've experienced, which you've touched upon briefly in this conversation. I know there's much more to that, and I don't want to cause you any discomfort or make you feel uncomfortable, but I wanted to ask you, after serving in the church in senior leadership positions, and actually I would describe you easily as a pillar in the church leadership for over a century or a century of your life. My question is, following your or during your transition and following your resignation, What has been the reaction of the church members considering you're— everybody in Scotland knows you, you've been this pillar in the church leadership for over a century. What were the members' reaction? People who've known you for so long, how do they react?

That's an excellent question and I will try to be as diplomatic as I can. I think that by leaving the church, it threw a lot of people. I mean, I was the bishop, you know, I did interview them, I sat down with them, I counseled the children, and then suddenly I left the church. I don't think they got over that. Maybe because they themselves had deep down concerns, don't know, but They have stayed away from me. I have went to church a couple of times and they're nice to me. Nobody's been brutal or, but they'd probably rather not talk to me and stay their distance. There is exceptions to that. There's some really good people who have kept in touch with me and been concerned. But the overall answer is, out of the church, out of their mind. And that's true. That's what happens. And I know that Ian, you would have experienced exactly the same. You know, they don't want to face up to it. And I could have wonderful conversations with them, but they could probably see it as negative and me being evil. So I don't— I've made new good friends, Christian friends who've been wonderful to me and looked after me, and God bless them for that. So yeah, your answer to your question is yes, I have been dumped. I'm a big hate, and goodbye George, and don't bother us. Prisai kū.

Well, I remember talking to Ian Uh, one of the things that he said about his transition out of the church was that he was surprised that nobody ever asked him why. And it was— he said, you know, can I tell you how many people have asked me why I left the church? And the answer is zero. Is that the same experience for you, George?

Exactly. They don't want to know because I, I I did a lot of writing. That was part of the experience of me leaving the church. So I wrote a lot of booklets about my experience and why I left, but they didn't want to know. And God bless them. If they're happy in what they're doing, then let them continue. But it's not for me.

Why do you think that is? Why don't people want to know why?

I think it's fear. I mean, you don't live a religion like you have, Jim Bennett, all your life and then walk away from it. You don't do that. You stick in there. I mean, to be part of the Tabernacle Choir, I think one of our friends, dentist in America from Ireland, he's a member of the choir. And he loves it, he's got his business. But in America, you're very tied into what your job is, and if you walk away from the church, you could walk away from your living, you know, because people will stop going to your store or your business. So I think it's not so bad in Britain. Mormonism isn't really that well known. In Britain. I mean, we talk about the missionary work, and I mean, the people who left the church, thousands and thousands of them, were drawn to America by the dream of the promised land. The missionaries taught that to people, told them they would be able to, and it didn't work out. Many of them died. I remember a bad experience that I had when I was in Salt Lake. I went up to This is the place. And as I was standing there looking at it, there was a Catholic preacher, a priest in it. And I remember looking up the hill and there was a graveyard. And in the graveyard was a lot of unmarked gravestones. And these were children that had been pulled off of the planes dead. These people went to America looking for a new life, and sadly many of them found death. Um, it's a hard one, and you've got to admire them. I think if I had been brought up in America with family who had been pioneers, I would have been very loyal. I would have been loyal to their memory. But that wasn't the case in Britain. There is no massive history here. Um, it's a Protestant country, and the missionaries who taught me were young American boys from Utah, and they played on friendship and companionship, and they made friends with me, and I loved them. I'll tell you something, it's interesting. You know, one of the missionaries who taught me and brought me into the church have never tried to contact me to say, how am I doing? They've never bothered. And I always wondered about that. They must have wondered about that young 15, 16-year-old boy, how he got on in the church. And I think I had quite a good story to tell them, but they've never bothered. They just gone on with their life. Is okay. So, um, yeah, that was my wife. She's, she's more than a bit, um, hello, how are you?

This is good to see you.

Jim Bennett.

I know him.

Hi.

Hi.

Good to see you.

He's okay. Um, so yeah, that's the two questions simply. Um, You know, the church met as a young boy, gave me a lot of— there was tremendous things in those days, like road shows, music festivals, speech festivals. There was always something going on. And I spent many of my Saturdays building churches. You know, I would go to a church building site And now when I look back on it, I start to name some names for you, which will mean more to you, Ian, but places like Hamilton, Cathkin, Drumchapel, Johnston, et cetera, et cetera, all closed, all lying empty. They look okay because they keep the gardens up, but the churches are gone. And there was 100 people would go to those churches. So the growth is not there in Britain, and the people are very cynical and are not willing to be taken in by 2 young boys as I was, as you were. So maybe I'm intrigued to go at Germany in. Have you written to the people you baptized in the church? I'm sure you have, but it would have been a great experience for me and maybe helped me get through my leaving of the church. But they just got on with their life and the mission was just part of their experience and I didn't really matter, which is fine. But I met a good woman in Manitoba and had 4 kids and 18 grandchildren and Children. So, kudapasteh, I'll bet people, you all think I'm lying.

The age of social media has been very helpful in that because, you know, when I got home in 1989 and calling across, you know, telephone calls were so expensive. I wanted to keep in touch. I just didn't know how to do it. I should have written letters, but I didn't. But then social media just sort of came out of the blue, and now I have a Facebook feed filled with Scottish people. And it's delightful to me that these people, I've been able to sort of reconnect with them and still have them as part of my life. But I can imagine just how frustrating that would be to have these missionaries who were such a pivotal moment in your life just sort of move on and not reach out.

Yeah, Jim Bennett, did I write to them? No, I didn't. You know, I just got on with my life as well. And that's what happens in the big picture. We get involved, but missionaries are very important in your life. They were for me. They were my friends and my tutors, and they were great people, wonderful people. Elder Shumway and Elder Blood and all these names, I can still remember them, but they changed my life and focused me into a good attitude to life that I may not have had if I hadn't met the church. So yeah, I know Ian's story is quite powerful about getting kicked out of his house and all that. Yeah, then these missionaries were good people, and I don't condemn them in any way. You know, they did their job and they worked hard and were wonderful.

George, were you part of the baseball baptism era?

No, I was involved when it happened, and so what we had was missionaries who were allowed to be by their mission president highly involved with youth. I remember, fascinatingly enough, a mission van. It was a Transit van, and the missionaries used to run us all around to different places. Maybe they shouldn't have, and maybe it was dangerous for them, but that built a great social circle that wasn't existing in Malay. And yeah, and no disrespect to those missionaries, but these wonderful early leaders who were very much Protestant in their thought patterns, they came into the church from a Protestant faith and created a miracle of mixture of Mormonism and Protestant faith and were great, just great leaders, people like David Poulter, Church, the Richardsons, Arthur Arvidsson, these names may mean to, again, but Albert Roy, all of these were great leaders created by the church and who led the church wonderfully. And I loved being a young person in the church. It was a great lifestyle, the Golden Green Ball and all those kind of things. Good life.

Do you remember Elder Cummings?

Yeah, Alec Cummings.

Alec Cummings, wonderful man. Wonderful, wonderful man.

And, and, but, uh, Peter Cameron, oh, wonderful guy. Um, I remember once I worked for a bank, TSB Bank, I was a financial consultant, and I remember I was over in Rossie doing work, and I was out one night going to see a customer, and there came Peter walking along the road, and I said, 'What, you're going to see your member?' And he said, 'I'll have to stay overnight because the ferries won't take me back.' And I went, 'Oh wow, man,' he was just increasing. He was a wonderful guy.

Now, Jim Peter was the state president of the Paisley stake when I was in Stranraer, and one of the— just an extraordinary individual, and again, another pillar of the church leadership in Scotland. These are names I think will resonate with a lot of people in Scotland. This is the history of the church in Scotland in many ways.

You mentioned the porches. And I'm trying to pull up here because I think my father was the one who tracked it out to the Porches. Wow. And introduced it to the church. And my father passed away in 2011. And I'm sorry, 2010. No, my brain just stopped. He passed away in 2016. He was suffering from pancreatic cancer and then he had a stroke. And passed away 3 weeks after a stroke. But the day before his stroke, he gave a fireside about the Book of Mormon and about his experience with the Book of Mormon. He'd written a book that was published during his final campaign. And at the end of it, he told the story of tracting out the Porches. And I met the Porches at the end of my mission. They came and picked me up. And, and had a wonderful chance to visit with them. And they were just such delightful people. And the stories from Scotland, from my father's era serving there, were so inspiring to me because you really— it was really the church against the world. You know, you were huddled up. And I grew up in the United States, obviously, but I did not grow up in Utah. I grew up in Southern California, uh, where the church is— I mean, there's certainly more members than there are in the UK, but in terms of its cultural impact while I was growing up, it was negligible. People didn't know anything about the church where I lived either. And that sense of community, the, the road shows, the, the dance festivals, the all of those kinds of things, they really just sort of got me through my adolescence. And I see the church now and we've lost so, so much of that, so much of that sense of community. And I live in Utah where the church is predominant, but it doesn't have nearly the same kind of community spirit that it had when I was growing up. And you mentioned that the church is not, that you're not seeing growth in the UK, and the reports I get anecdotally, obviously, but there are essentially half as many active members as there were when I was a missionary there 35 years ago. Is that accurate?

Well, that's very accurate, and I know because I know how many people are attending church buildings in Scotland, and a high membership nowadays would be 40, maybe 50 if you're lucky. In the old days, it was 100. You know, many of these wads were very strong, and because the church offered a lifestyle, because it offered community, because it offered support, it worked well for the Scottish people, and we did have wonderful people, and David O. McKay, who was a prophet, and, you know, that gave us a great boost to think— and I think Scotland was looked favorably upon by the brethren. I think they'll— I'll give you a quick story. I remember attending a meeting in Grant Street, in Glasgow, in a tenement flat. Now, this was Arthur Robertson's home, and in that room was Boyd T. Packer, Spencer W. Kimball, Mark T. Peterson, and a few other luminaries of the church meeting in a tenement flat. That's how involved they were in those days. They were right in it, and they were good to train the leaders you were with them and loved them and were well-loved because of that. So yeah, these were big days at the beginning, but as the church became more impersonal, then it began to lose. And then of course, internet came on board and games that kids played rather than playing a game on a computer. I think the world changed. It wasn't, I think it was every, I would be wrong to say the Mormon Church is the only church that's suffering from lack of attendance. Many churches in Britain and in Europe are struggling, struggling hard to keep people because of the internet. And that's what fascinated me about the growth of the church that I attend. It was like the old days of Mormonism, 350 people, as I said, which should really be a stake conference, coming every Sunday. It was just a joy to me, and I felt the Spirit there. I knew God was there. So, sorry.

No, I think that's wonderful. I mean, and You're right in that this is a problem that all churches are facing, Christian and non-Christian. Uh, and it makes me concerned that missionaries are being sent out to answer a question that no one is asking. You know, no one is asking, what, what is the one true church? And we're trying to answer that question, and what people are asking is, why do I need a church? At all. And more and more people are saying they don't need a church. Uh, so if you were, if you were put back in charge of the entire church, I sustain you now as a prophet, seer, and revelator, and you are now the president of the church, uh, what would you do to sort of steer the church in the right direction, at least, at least as you see it?

I, well, what would I do? I mean, I don't have a clue what I would do, but what I think I would do is an amazing— I met the, what's the name of the church?

The Thea.

Thea Mormon.

Oh yeah.

Met the guy, he was over visiting my son-in-law who was a stake president. And I asked him, what the biggest problem that the church faces in this day? And he said polygamy. He said polygamy is our biggest problem. So what would I change? I wouldn't change polygamy because it's not going to come back. But I would be very important that the church becomes more and more transparent. I think the esses were a wonderful step forward, but they're not discussed. They're not mentioned in stake conference. They're not taught at church, and you have to do your own work for them if you want to in the internet. So I think, yeah, I—

I don't mean to interrupt you, but I bet that most members don't even know they exist.

Amen. Amen. I know that's the fact because I've asked them. Because I'd have referred them to the Essenes and they've just went, "What's that?" Because it's not promoted. No bishop's going to go out and teach the Essenes. And as I'd say, Jeremy Reynolds was quite an amazing character with his questions to a CES leader. And as I said before, I was very fond of Grant Palmer. So sad he died. He was revolutionary and his change, you see, as a person who came out and left the church. And so my answer to your question is that just don't hide away from issues. Be open. We have chances at conference to discuss the problems of the church, the black issue. LGBTQ, but they won't talk the finance, but they won't talk about these things because they look upon that as negative. And I get that. I get that they want to keep it all sweet and pretty, but it's not. Life is not sweet and pretty. It's hard. It's in your face. When I look at Palestine, we look at the Gaza, we see children being killed daily. And the world is a tough place. Place. And leaders of the church, if I happen to be a prophet, which I never will be, I would just be more open and trust the members that they have the brains. They're not lazy learners, they're not lazy people. They didn't leave the church kind of run because they wanted to sin. I didn't want to sin. I just wanted to get away from the pressure. Or religion that was destroying me as a person and my own values and commitments. As I say today, my son Mark is an AA authority for Scotland and Ireland. He's a powerful young man and I fear for this kind of communication may upset him when I'm talking so openly, but He knows how I feel and he must accept that I'm allowed to speak. And if I was a prophet, I would let people speak and open the church up to chances for people who don't believe to go to church, to find a place in the church where they can ask tough questions and not be kicked out because they're being awkward or bolshy. So yeah, not a very good answer to your question, but I, I think it's a great, great answer to my question.

Great answer.

Yeah.

I, I, you, you mentioned Jeremy Runnels. I mean, I don't know if you know my background, but I wrote a line-by-line response to the CES. Yes. And, and, uh, Jeremy Runnels, at one point I had never met him, and at one point he started sending me these nasty little emails. Said, because he'd heard me on a podcast and he's like, oh, you made a fool of yourself, Jim Bennett. And then so I sent him a nasty email back and we went back and forth. And then I finally said, wouldn't this be more fun over burgers? I'm buying. And we went out to lunch and I got to know him and I consider him a good friend. He's a good guy. But, but when that fair guy says to you, our biggest problem is polygamy. I think he is framing the issue incorrectly because polygamy is part of the problem. I think our biggest problem is exactly kind of what you're saying. I think our biggest problem is our unwillingness to accept prophetic fallibility, to accept the fact that the church is capable of making mistakes and has made mistakes. And leaders have made mistakes, and we're not willing to own up to that, accept that, and embrace that. And we keep acting like we have a choice as to whether or not we're going to confront the difficult issues. And we don't. We don't have a choice. No, the essays were sort of a step in that direction. But the reality is, you know, when I was a missionary knocking on doors, the only way you could find out about Fanny Alger or The Stone in the Hat was if some pastor slipped a weird little pamphlet through their door in a brown paper envelope and it looked sketchy and was very easy to say, oh, that's just anti-Mormon nonsense, don't pay any attention to it. Well, now you have the internet where you put the word Mormon into Google and the first thing that comes up is some kind— something that the church doesn't want you to know, that some kind of problematic issue. And we keep acting like we can just ignore it. We keep acting like we can just shove it under the rug, and we can't. I mean, I very much believe— Ian and I had a fun conversation where we talked about the future of the church. I very much believe that the church has the potential for a very bright future, but the road that leads to it is not the road we seem to be on. The road we're on is pretending it's still 1965, pretending we can still just, you know, keep our heads down and not talk about all of the controversial issues that are driving people away. We don't have that choice anymore. We just have to be able to confront it head on. And I find that when you do that, when you can create a faith that is built around the idea that this is a great church, this is a church that blesses a great many lives, and it is also a church that has made a great number of mistakes and done a number of things wrong that we need to repent for. I think that you can, you can have a solid foundation, but only if you address that reality. And I don't see And do you see any signs other than the essays? I mean, are you seeing anything out there that says we're moving in that direction?

I am obviously— you can't really leave the church alone, and that's one of the drawbacks of it. And I promised myself that I would try not to become too internet-based, but I do love you guys and what you're doing. RSM, I think it's incredible, Bill Reel, and John Delaney. These men are eating away at the source and base of the Mormon faith. And I think the brethren, they come out with statements like, don't doubt the leaders, you know, don't talk against them. Now, what is that all about, you know? Because they're never wrong, they're right. What they do. No, no, no, they're men, they make mistakes. The LGBT children thing was horrendous, and that's through so many people who said, how could the church do that? And how could God do that? And then a few years later, they rescinded that very thing. So God was wrong, according to the LDS Church. God made a mistake. And God's perfect. He is the Great I Am. And so I think that's— how would I reflect upon that? I would just say it's a tough battle. And the thing is, when you go away from the church, you suddenly find a whole new life. I mean, my life's very full because I 'Cause of my illness, I am unable to drive anymore. I don't have a car. And what's happened is these Christians at the church I attend turn up on a Sunday and pick me up and take me to church and bring me back. Well, we're on all the time. It's just pure Christian faith. No benefit, not because they've been encouraged by their leaders to get more members. None of that goes on. It just happens. And they've created a social community that was just the same as what you said, Jim Bennett, the churches on a community day. They have recreated it and it works. Of course it works. People just want to be loved and looked after. That's all people are wanting. And I'm getting that now from my new thing.

Okay. Well, bless you for that. I mean, I, I respect anybody who finds God in, in a difficult world. And, you know, how has your family reacted to your faith transition?

That's the million-dollar question. I think you asked me earlier on how members of the church treated me in regards to leaving the church. I think my children respect me, but they have their beliefs, and I'm pleased for that. I think I would love to know life to come along with me to the church I attend. But her friendships are at the LDS Church, and she goes back there on a Sunday, and that's kind of hard. I want to be with her. I want her to come and sit and enjoy the experience I have. But I think all in all, it's been a hard hard, hard journey. It was not easy to leave the LDS Church. It is so ingrained. So my family, they put up with me. They do not read much of the stuff that I've written, and I understand that. I don't want to depress them. They're good. If you met them, you'd love them. They're wonderful people. And that's down to my wife because most of the time in my church life, I was the one sitting on the stand, I was the one in the office doing interviews, I was the one with the youth, and I was once a group scout leader. We tried to introduce scouting to Scotland, but it didn't work. It just didn't because The problem being in that, and I hate to diverse a bit, but the problem with that is if you had a man who was a good group scout leader, you would more preferably have him as a bishop or a leader rather than stuck in a youth program. But it wasn't encouraged by the church. I always thought they should have sent scouting missionaries over from America to establish kind of thing. But because the program, and you know Ian, the program was so weak for youth. It wasn't, if you didn't play football, you really didn't have much activities on a Tuesday night. So there was nothing for the young people. There was no Eagle Scouts or trying. There was the Duke of Edinburgh Award, which I really admired. A lot of depth there, and I would encourage my kids to do that. But the church didn't fulfill the things to the youth. All they told them was, you need to go on a mission, and they drummed that into them until many of them went and then came home badly because they couldn't cope. Sorry, I don't think that answers. Your question, but that's my thoughts.

No, I— but it's just interesting. I, I'm always fascinated by the family dynamics of, of families where, where you have people who are still active church members, uh, and I'm— mixed faith marriages are becoming a bigger and bigger thing in the church, and we, we don't address that. We, we kind of ignore it. It ends up breaking up marriages. A lot of spouses decide, if I have to choose between my spouse or the church, I'm going to choose the church, which I think is heartbreaking. But I see you, you're still, you're still a pioneer. You know, when you joined the church when you were 15, you were pioneering in Scotland in an environment where the church was not prominent. And now you are at a stage of life where you are setting an example again. How do you make a mixed faith marriage work? What do you do when, when, when you believe something differently than your spouse does or that your children do? And if I may say so, I think you're doing it very well. So I would say the Lord wants you I say the opposite of Gerald Lund. The people love you and the Lord wants you.

You see, the thing, Jim, is when Gerald Lund said that to me, I knew that God loved me. I knew that he didn't know me or want to know me, or he had a job to do. He had to call on you snakebites. But when he said that, I knew it was a lie. Because I knew that God did want me and that I'd served him as well as I could. In business life, I had some really big— I mean, that was over 600 people in one of my jobs. So I was— and I think Warren Church helped me. Stephen Covey was a great thing. We have managed him a lot in my training with my people and managers. Because I thought his stuff was brilliant. So this inspired people in the church. But they, I mean, I looked at things like Thad Growdy and the other writers and they knew it. They knew it way ahead of their time. They wrote it down and looking at it today, you go, it was spot on. So you're right, the church leaders, they all know the problems. I'm sure they face them every day in their meetings. And I know that they see the problems, but I hate to say this, but there's a big massive elephant in the room, and it's called finance. When you're running an organization that's worth $140 billion plus, it's very hard to go the wrong way. And I mean, I said, my pastor, when I spoke to him, I said, are you paid? And he said, yes. And he gave me the exact figure of what he was paid. And it wasn't a great figure. But when I asked church leaders, were they paid, and they said, "We have no paid ministry." Yes, they did. Yes, they are. And Grant Palmer makes the comment that some of the top leaders are given a bonus of $1 million to get them golden handcuffs. Whether that's true or not doesn't matter to me. I don't care. But, you know, maybe there's a time to move back to looking out. The hardest job in the church, as far as I'm concerned, is the bishop. I think the bishop carries so much weight. He has a family to look after, he has a job to look after, he has a church of 100 people to look after, his involvement, and I see the dangers to them mentally and pressure on them to try and cope with that responsibility. And they should be paid, they should be allowed some kind of income to allow them to have time to serve the church. And same with state presidents. I mean, I don't know if my son's paid to be a niri authority, I doubt it, but the man, I saw him today, as I said, and the man who asked us, he was heading off to Europe. Go to meetings and he's away every weekend and he'll be doing it and he's had cancer, so poor boy has went through cancer, but he's wonderfully committed and I could never try to talk him out of his church because he's good at it. Anyway, enough from me.

Well, Ian, do you have any questions that I've overlooked?

I do have one. I'm so grateful to spend this time with you, George, and I'll always be grateful for your support. Jim Bennett, George was just a wonderful support to me as a bishop, and frankly, there were times I didn't think I could even get through that calling. George and Stephen Kerr and President Allen were on the presidency at the time, and they were tremendous. And one question I have, George, you know, with all of your experience, you know, the pain and the, and the hurt, but also the, the peace that you're at now, you know, you found a place of peace, a place of mind, a peace in your mind, in your heart, notwithstanding the hurt and pain that you said you described earlier, that you felt dumped. And I can certainly relate to that. But my question is, given all of that, given all the challenges that you've gone through, the experiences, and, and very similar to, in, in some ways, to others who are traversing similar issues and asking the same questions and struggling with their faith and going through a crisis and, and the risk of losing a community essentially overnight, which is very, very painful. My question is, with all of that, with all your experience, what advice, if any, would you give someone who is having similar concerns with the church and its infallibility and truth, and to quote you, transparency, finance, and all the other historical issues, you know, LGBTQ, etc., what overarching advice would you give somebody who's going through a similar experience in terms of questioning the faith?

Good one. I think my answer should firstly be go talk to your bishop. But to be honest with you, I think that would be a waste of time because they're so integrally involved in the whole thing. My answer was to go to a minister of another religion. Two of them, actually. One was a Hindu who was a minister, and he lived across the road from me, and he was wonderful to me, and he had a tough time time, small church, big building, costing a fortune, but he was very patient. And then Callum just took time with me, and he wasn't giving me a rough time or running down the Mormon Church. He just said, talk to me. And that's the secret. People have to learn to be able to open up to others who maybe are not of the faith, but with the awareness that they may get some surprise answers. I did. I found my original member. I started in the world as a Protestant. I attended a Protestant church, was a Boys Brigade leader in my youth. So I left. The funny thing is, and Jim asked me, searching question earlier on, what about the attitude of your church to LGBT? I think that it is an issue and I think that church ministers, the minister that I deal with just now, he had been a Church of Scotland minister, but the whole, about 10 or 12 of them walked away from the Protestant faith because of the church leaders in the Protestant faith making decisions that weren't biblical, and they decided to start their own religion, and he has successfully done that, and great man, great leader, and loved by his congregation. So yeah, I think the answer to your question, uh, basically is that At the end of the day, I've been along. I remember when I was in Salt Lake, we have friends who live in Salt Lake, and we went to visit City Creek. Now, I'd heard about San Juan Rock, so I went to have a look, and I went, what is this all about? There was a river running through the center of it. That's why it's called a river. The shops were top class. I couldn't afford to buy anything in them. And I went, why was £6 billion spent in this building a chain like this? And I said, considering the poverty in Britain with people in the food courts. And then I went, it's not fair. And I found people from Solveig are very protective and say, well, they created a lot of jobs and It's done a lot of good for the community. But it's still a shopping centre at the end of the day, and there's so much need in the world. I stopped paying tithing, but I pay money to an organisation called CHAS, which is a children's hospice. So I haven't— I just pay in a different way. But I spent thousands and thousands to the church, and for them to use that money in such a way broke my heart, and I realized, and that they're not unique. Protestant Faith Has Plenty, Jimmy Swaggart, and all these guys, they do the same thing, the prosperity doctrines. So yeah, I just try to live a good life. I know I've gotten short space of time, maybe, maybe another 6, 7 years on this earth. And I just want to prepare to go back to my Father in Heaven with a smiling face and a clear mind. That's all I want. And my family.

Okay, well, I think we should let that be the last word. Uh, George, very much appreciate you talking with us. I think I think your insights are going to help a lot of people who are going to listen to this.

Jim, I know you're a politician, or have been a politician, and I've read a lot of your stuff and I've watched your program Inside and Outside. And, uh, Ian, you've come to find a place in that podcast community, and I know that there'll be a lot of interest For me, I say that podcast for you because you speak common sense. And Jim's just a grand— uh, he's got a good head and knows who he is. And I get it why he holds on to the LDS Church. Um, because if I was in the Tabernacle Choir, I would have stayed.

Well, you are ever back in Salt Lake City, uh, let me know. Let me know because I will get you I will bring you in as a musical guest of the Tabernacle Choir. So you can come on a Thursday night and sing along in the choir loft with the choir. And then Mack Wilberg will introduce you to everybody. I'm serious about that. Just got to give me enough advance notice and I'll make you a star. How's that?

Well, we'll be— I think health will not— My daughter lives in Mauritius, which is 12 hours away, Colette, my youngest daughter, and she's always on it with me coming out. She works for the bank in Mauritius and keeps asking me to come and visit. Well, I couldn't handle the flight. I'm going to look at trying to get a scooter, mobility scooter, to get me around because I'm a wanker. Anyway, well done. Thank you.

Well, we'll just have to bring the choir to you then. That's the plan.

Fine. No, Bill, it's called an encyclical. Yeah, we miss them and we love them. I think the last time, right, COVID hit and they couldn't travel to Britain, but they need that sociality. We admire the choir.

We had a tour scheduled where we were going to take a 3-week cruise starting in Scandinavia and we were going to end in Scotland. And I was counting the days and I was so excited because I've been back to the UK, but I have not been back to Scotland. And then COVID hit and they canceled the tour. So we'll see what happens. But I'll tell them that George Stewart wants us to come back, and I think that will make all the difference.

Thank you, darling.

George, I want to say, I want to tell you how much we love you. And if I was there, I'd give you a big hug. I want you to know that because I love you. I'm grateful for you. I'm so grateful that we've had this time with you. I am grateful that your experiences will help people in many, many ways. I want you to give your lovely wife a big hug from Debbie and I. We love her dearly. She's a wonderful soul. Love to you and your family. And again, just privileged to spend this time with you and again, extend our love and gratitude and thank you for your courage and your bravery and in sharing your thoughts and your experiences. I know they will help others in many, in many ways. So thank you.

Good night, you guys. Good night.

Thank you. And to all the listeners, we'll see you next time on Inside Out.