A Conversation with Hans Mattsson

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the podcast that takes a pragmatic look at the Mormon Church and faith. We consider the strengths or weaknesses of the church We acknowledge the good that the church does, but also the problems and issues within the church and the areas where we think, and I guess think, the church can change and improve. As always, I'm here with my partner, the most distinguished Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim, how are you today?

Well, I'm most distinguished. That's how I think of myself, so I appreciate it that you think of me that way as well.

And I'm sure others do as well. It's always a pleasure to do these podcasts, Jim, and we do them because we want to help people. We enjoy that. I think it's good for us, and we just enjoy the whole experience. To our listeners, today we have another very, very special guest all the way from Sweden, Hans Mattsson. Hans, welcome. Thank you for joining us today.

Thank you. I'm glad to be with you.

Thank you, Hans, and we appreciate your time that we have with you today. Hans provided a bio of his experience. I think it's very relevant to our conversation, so I'm just going to share the bio of Hans if I may. Hans was born in Gothenburg in Sweden, 1950. He has a twin brother, two older brothers. The whole family were faithful Latter-day Saints. Hans grew up in a Mormon family. He's third-generation LDS. He graduated from college in 1969. He served as a full-time missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Birmingham, England mission from 1970 to '72. Following his mission, he served in the Swedish Armed Forces in Gothenburg, during which time he met his lovely wife, Birgitta. Do I pronounce that right, Hans? Is it Birgitta?

Birgitta is quite right, yes.

Birgitta. I want to make sure I pronounce your good wife's name correctly. Birgitta converted to the Mormon faith at the age of 17. They were later married in 1974, sealed in the Swiss temple. They have 5 children and 13 grandchildren, which is a challenge in itself, I'm sure. Professionally, Hans started his career in sales and information technology. He's held senior managerial positions, including partner in a Swedish IT company. Hans was incredibly devoted, active member of the LDS faith. Serving in very senior and very serious positions in the church, which is branch president, bishop, high council member, stake presidency, stake president, mission presidency, and later as an Area Authority Seventy, a general authority in the church. He was an Area Authority Seventy. He was headquartered in Frankfurt in Germany from April 2000 to April 2005. In this position, Hans worked closely with General Authorities, including apostles, and Birgitta, his wife, was very supportive in all of his callings, and we can only imagine the sacrifice that Birgitta had to make for him to allow all the time that he devoted, Hans, in these callings. Later, unfortunately, after some health issues, including heart bypass surgery, Hans and Birgitta decided to move to a warmer climate and made Spain their home from 2013. Hans spent some time in 2018 writing a book titled Truth Seeking, the story of a high-ranking Mormon leader, Hans Madsen, seeking sincere answers from his church, but instead finding contempt, fear, and doubt, and eventually peace. Hans shares many of his experiences in his book and other books titled Seek the Truth and Find Doubts, It was during his time as an Area Authority Seventy, Hans developed a number of questions he needed answers for. However, with a lack of answers and mounting doubts, this experience changed his worldview about the church, its truth claims, and his perspective on life. And in his own words, he was forced to call into question his whole identity, his marriage, relationships, Nature of God, Self-Image, and Their Entire Existence. I hope I've captured that accurately, Hans. Please correct any of that if I didn't.

Well, I think you're quite good on your introduction, and maybe I can say that the English name of the book is Truth Seeking. Maybe you said that or didn't hear it.

Well, you've corrected that or you've made that very clear. So again, just to be clear, the book title is called Truth Seeking, written by Hans Benson. And Jim Bennett and I going through that book, and it's extraordinary. And the book is very profound and very personal. It shares a lot of Hans's experiences and perspective. It actually is a very helpful tool for those who are navigating the faith. And that I think is a good segue into our conversation, Hans, because you have an extraordinary life of service and kindness and goodness that you've extended to many people that you've associated with and come into contact with, including but not limited to myself. Because in 2013, my family and I were going through a very— sorry, 2015, I apologize. Going through a very serious faith crisis. I was serving on a stake presidency at the time, and we discovered a number of very serious issues relating to the church. They stemmed from a talk that was given titled Blacks in the Priesthood. Sorry, but a talk that Elder Uchtdorf gave rather in 2013, which talks about some of the behavior activities that past leaders have conducted in themselves have been questionable. And later that year, I think in November or October 2013, they issued the first essay, which was titled Blacks in the Priesthood. I read that, and that was the beginning of my faith crisis. And we were at a time where our boys were thinking of going on full-time missions. And I reached out to you at that time, so it was 2013, actually, and I reached out to you because I was struggling and looking for help and guidance and advice on whether we should send our boys on missions. It was a real problem. It was a dark period in our family, and I was having some serious doubts. And you took, I think, 2 or 3 phone calls from me, and you were amazing. You were very kind and thoughtful, and you shared your experience with your family and what you did. And that was instrumental in us making a decision not to send our two boys at that time on full-time missions. And in hindsight, from my experience, from my perspective, I'm no longer part of the church or inside the church, that in hindsight has been a very good decision for our family. So I want to thank you publicly and personally for being an amazing, kind, wonderful man to help me personally, and I know you've helped, you know, many, many people on lots of different issues and helped them navigate their faith, so thank you for that. Could we start by just starting at sharing your experience on when you learned about some of the issues with the church? You were serving as an Area Authority Seventy very senior calling. And in your book and on some of the other podcasts that you've, you've been involved in, you share some of your difficulty in trying to obtain answers to some of the questions. You've met with apostles and general authorities. Could you start us off there with that experience that you had at that time?

Yeah, I think to start In 2004, Elton Perry was called to serve and preside over the Central European, or really the West part of Europe, including Great Britain. And of course, we had a good time and a learning time to be with him during that time. After '70, I got some questions from bishops and stake presidents about questions about the church history, and there was about Joseph Smith and the Golden Plates. There was about polygamy, polyandry, and at that time I was so dedicated, I never heard about those. I couldn't even understand there was question like that. So with the state conference, I was together with Elton Perry. It was actually Gossamer State where I was born, and my twin brother was the state president. And we talked to Elton Perry, there are some issues of some members and we don't know how to answer them. And my twin brother, the state president, show him a lot of different questions though, ask me about the history of the church. Then Elton Perry looked at us and he said, he has a very spiritual voice, you know, he's speaking loud and he said, I don't need any microphone. Anyway, he said, in my briefcase, I have a document, a manuscript of a book that comes out that will prove them all wrong. And we're not only going to prove them wrong, we're going to go after them and we're going to nail them. And I thought, that's what I thought. You know, we have answers and we were happy. We went out to the members and to talk, to give them the answers that there will be answers to all your questions. Now, after a few months, we started to get questions. What about that book? I like to have the book. Can I read it? Where is it? So actually, my twin brother, Steve Preston, called. In Frankfurt, and he was told, "You're not supposed to ask question like that. That can embarrass the leaders of the church." And I was so surprised, and of course, that triggered me to find out why is it in the book? Is he lying to me, or what is it he tried to hide? So I got really, really interested and sought to find out the answers by myself. And that's when it started really. And he gave me so many things that actually, let me say like this, I only tried to find out that the church thing was true, that this was anti-Mormon propaganda. That I've heard about. So it took me a long time to come to this situation. One night I had been visiting my mother in Gothenburg. We lived in Stockholm, close to the Stockholm Temple. And I was driving home and I just, in my mind, you know, I was really praying, asking the Lord, "Let me know the truth." I love the church. I love the gospel. I have so many good experiences. My wife and I are still in the children and the boys have been on a mission, so many things. And all my life, all my friends, I was in the church. All my family, my brothers and their families. And suddenly comes over me that question, maybe this is not true. And I just started to weep and cry, and it was so hard, you know. And it took me about 4 and a half hours, and I was just, they say, debilitated out. I was crushed, and I thought, This is so hard. And that's when it turned, for me, to understand maybe this is not true. And the more I looked, the more I read, every stone I was turning around, there was more questions, more troubling things, you know. And I don't know if I've ever been praying so much. I meditated, I talked to the Lord, I asked him to give me the answers. And such a tough period in my life, and for my wife as well.

Well, thank you for that. I can relate to the pain and anguish that you went through. I, you know, having gone through a similar, you know, perhaps maybe similar experience in terms of, you know, anguish and pain and crying tears of pain. In regard to the questions, Hans, that were being asked of you by bishops and stake presidents, the leaders, and you were assured that there were answers, what did you go back to the bishops with when they were asking you questions or members asking you questions? Presumably they were following up with you and saying, Hans, have you obtained any information? Have you got any answers to these questions? You've had a conversation with Elton Perry. You know, what are the answers to the questions? How did you deal with that?

First of all, I was happy to tell them there will be answers. An apostle of the Lord, a man who is chosen to be a special witness of Christ and He said, "The resistance, they are all false, that they talk about the history of the church and many other things." So when I learned more about the church history by myself, I was also released because this was in the autumn of the fall. Of 2004 and 2005, in April I was released. So I feel sorry. I feel a little bit sorry for the state president, the Stockholm, what I was living. And I never said this is how it is. I only ask questions. Why do you think Josef Stalin with feather and heart and feather. And you know, why, why try to see the other side and why this happened, not only the what happened, but why it was happening and questions like that, you know. And, and, um, of course we have this, uh, what we is known today as the Swedish Rescue. When Marlin Johnson and Rick Turley come to Stockholm, Sweden, and all the leaders in the church was there, stake president, bishops, and some mission lead— no, not mission leader, but the counselors. And of course, It was, we were allowed to ask the question. And of course, you can read all about it in the book, but still, we started with that elf, Marlene Jones there went to the whiteboard, drew a line and said, on the left side, Jesus Christ, the truth. On the other right side, it said Lucifer, the evil, you know. And then he was just giving some scriptures and we have to choose between Jesus the Christ or Satan. And it was a really terrible experience because he really said to us, if you don't are with us in the church, you are with the devil. And we didn't feel like that. We only want to know the truth. And he said, when I met him first at the meeting, he said, Hans, can you help me? You know, I said, Ellemorlie Nielsen, we only have to know the truth, nothing else. So of course there, the main interest, as I saw it there, was that All these state presidents, there were 4 of them, and bishops and other leaders found out that what they have told us is that you are deceived. You're all people that were with my group, I think it was about 25 of us, that we've been told that we are being liars, we are deceived. We are anti-Mormon. But now when they really answer the question me, and we were surprised that they were really honest. And what we asked about polygamy, Book of Mormon, and the stone in the hat, also just for a few example. Was true. That really happened. And some of the brethren there, the leaders, for the first time they heard from the General Authority that what we were asking about was true, was not something that we have found out was a all the anti-Mormon stuff. Yeah, so in that way, the leaders in Sweden had the information.

And were you, Hans, you, you were made to feel, um, guilty, I suppose, and placed on the side of the list on that, on the whiteboard there, the chalkboard, where they wrote a line and Jesus and Lucifer, and it sounds like you were made to feel, well, make a decision really. You were made to feel guilty for asking questions. Is that how you, how did you feel when they told you that you shouldn't be asking these questions? How did that make you feel?

Well, let's start with this. They were very kind because they sent these two men to Sweden just for us. And this is unique, I think. And we were not stopped to ask questions. But when the meeting was in the end, we were told, now you don't talk to him about this. You don't talk to your wife, you don't talk to the children, and no members. You just sit by yourself, read the scriptures, and then you make a decision. Either you are in the church or you leave the church. And that's what happened also afterwards. The leaders had been called to go around to all the of my friends that were there asking questions and making decisions, leave or stay. And I just called my papers there that I think Jesus was more interested to find the lost sheep than to throw them away. And I was sad. I was really sad that they don't, that felt like they were so scared about the truth. They don't handle the truth. And in that situation, it was for me also sad because my own family, I mean my brothers, my twin brother was really upset. Death, and he told me that I will be responsible for all those that see the church when they're yet when they are and will not be nice to you. And some, my oldest brother said, well, I don't want to know. I mean, I lived a happy life, so even if it's not true, I'm quite happy anyway. And my third brother, he and his family also looked into it and he was very supportive to me and they also left the church after a few years. So it was so tough, you know, and, and, uh, well, I think it's not easy to leave something. I used to understand that I didn't know anything else. All my life was the gospel, the church. All my friends were there, all my family. That was— and I really believed it. I lived all the commandments. I still do without going to church. And so it was so shocking and tough and hard. And I remember my wife said, you know, you are more important than the church. I'll stay with you. Even if she in the beginning was kind of upset about me that I didn't listen and I tried. I think she felt threatened that all the covenants we'd done in the temple with Mary. She said, you know, if you don't believe it anymore, what do you believe? What do you think about me? Don't you have any commitment with me anymore? What shall we tell the kids, the children? You know, we have one son on a mission in Greece, one in Spain, one in England. And we talked about what shall we do? Shall we tell them? And of course, they talked to her because they saw that I had my doubts. I was not the same enthusiastic leader in the church and talking about— and I asked my wife, "What happened to our dad? What is it? I will hear people talking about that you and he are going to be divorced. Hans is starting a new church." So many rumors, you know, that It was false. And just to answer that about the children, like you had, I am, we discussed this and we said, we have to tell them what we believe now. Because if we don't tell them now, and after a few years they find out themselves, they'll probably come back and say, You knew all about it and you didn't tell us anything about it. So we decided that we had a family home evening. We all come home and we said, "This is the situation. You are your own and you have your testimonies and you find out. Don't just follow me or what I believe. Find out yourself." And it was a tough time, you know, and I remember my oldest son, Daniel, he said to my wife, "You know, you have brought us up all in this and we believed you, and now you're going away from it." And that was kind of a knife in my heart, you know. Yeah, it's not only me, it's all of them as well. But give them some credit. They all said to me, "Apa, Dad, we enjoy our missions and we take the good things from the missions with us in our lives, and that's why we feel important." But they all left the church, all family, I left the church. But they're very good people, lovely kids. Lovely grandkids, and we have so close family life. Maybe I talk too much now, sorry.

This is your story, Hans. I don't think you can talk too much, and I very much appreciate your willingness to do that. A couple of quick questions. Marlon Jensen and Richard Turley are two of my favorite people in the Church. My father was very close to Marlon Jensen and, and Richard Turley. I met with Richard Turley at one point because I was trying to get a job with the church and I had a long conversation with some of the audio from the Swedish rescue from Marlon Jensen has sort of entered into the public consciousness. It's Jeremy Runnels quoted it in the CES letter when he talked about Um, uh, he talked about we've never seen this level of apostasy since Kirtland.

Maybe since Kirtland we've never had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now, largely over these issues.

And people leaving in droves largely over these issues.

Yeah.

Uh, and so it surprises me to hear that Marlon Jensen drew that line and said, you're either on one side or the other. Did he give you any sense of— was there any— from what I know from Marlon Jensen, I would have expected him to be able to give you enough grace to say you're not wicked or evil for asking these questions. And we respect you for asking these questions. I mean, was there that kind of a respectful atmosphere, or was it really just adversarial? You're either with God or you're with Satan.

I talked to Molly Jansson a few years after this Rescue Sweden meeting, and he said he was disappointed that they didn't make a different approach in the beginning. But I love Marlin Johnson. He's the kindest, loving people I know, and for me, he's most Christ-like of all the General Authorities I know. He is the one that shows so much love. And, but, I mean, we felt that We felt on that meeting that he respected us for the questions. I'm sure. But he was more worried, I think, that the questions will give the answers that we have to decide, stay or go. And he was not alone about that, but because the area president was there as well. His name is Kupyski, and he didn't connect really with our group. So we felt a little opposition, kind of, to what he tried to say. And of course, let me say this. I personally asked Elder Johnson and Shirley, do we believe in plural marriage? And he said, we don't practice it. I said, I didn't ask that. I asked if we still believe in it. And then he said, you know the answer. And I said, are you not allowed to say the words? Or why are you not telling me. And after 3, 4 questions from me, not giving up, he said, yeah, we believe in it. And I say, good, because I have some friends that are married to 2 or 3 wives, but in the temple, not of this earthly life, but in the temple. So we felt sometimes they were not really honest, they were honest but not all the way. And we feel like we have to stay with the question sometimes. But lovely people. I mean, Turlie and Marlene. Of course, you're right.

Well, I had an experience the same time when I met Marlon Jensen. Is when I met Elton Perry. I was with my father. I was backstage at the conference center in general conference. My father was a United States senator and had been given tickets to the priesthood session and had 2 extra tickets. And I brought my wife's nephew. I mean, he's my nephew. I consider him my nephew as well. But, but it's important to the story to know that he's biologically related to my wife because I'm 6 foot 4 inches tall. And my wife is 5 foot 1 inches tall. And my nephew is closer to my wife's height than to mine. My father was a very tall man. He was 6 foot 7, and my mother is 5 foot 9, I think. So we were backstage. This is all important. We were backstage at the conference center and there's Elton Perry, and my father goes up to talk to Elton Perry. And Elton Perry shakes all of our hands one at a time. And Dad says, oh, this is, this is my wife. And then shakes his hand. And this is my son Jim. I shake his hand. And this is Jim's nephew Brandon. And Elton Perry pulled back his hand and looked at Brandon and said, what happened to you? Uh, and it was, I think, supposed to be funny. Uh, that's really, really awkward. And Brandon, Brandon was just about to leave on his mission, and he, he says now, even to this day, yes, I went out on my mission and testified about, uh, the 11 apostles who were called by the Lord. Just found El Tom Perry to be really sort of overbearing, and that was an inappropriate thing to do. At the same time, I don't think Elton Perry meant to be offensive. I think he genuinely thought that was sort of funny or playful. But, but, you know, when these people are in these positions of leadership, we have these expectations of them that— and they're just fallible, normal people. And, and we sometimes forget that. I mean, it sounds to me like in your experience in the church, growing up in the church, that you would sort of, uh, been taught to believe that these men were infallible, that they couldn't make mistakes. And, and I think you've had some experiences, particularly there's one you told us about in our prior to this call with Elder Packer. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Um, you know, there are— but this is the way it is. As an authority in the church, you, you've been, you've been teach— we have meetings every General Conference. For area authorities, as I was, it was in the springtime. We were there 4 days before and were in the Church office building, and we'd be taught by the First Presidency, the Twelve Apostles, and the 7 presidents of the Seventy. So we learned to know them. And one of those teachings, I think we, This is it. We made different groups that European area met together. No, the Third Corps of the Seventh, these met together. And now the PAK was there and some other, I can't remember the rest. And he tried to explain for us that the new principle, policy that we not baptize people and then give them the Holy Ghost at the same time because we need— they need to be— yes, I think it was the DNC 20 that talks about it, that they should be taught something more. And in my mind, I didn't understand what happened after the baptism till next Sunday. What shall they be taught so they are ready for the Holy Ghost that we can teach them before they are baptized? So I asked the question to Elder Packer and he was not happy to answer that. He said something that I didn't get the answer really. So then we had lunch and he was standing in with a few people there and I thought I may go up to see him and I tried to ask, so I understand, what have I missed, what can I learn to do the right thing so I can teach the presidents how to act. And I went up to him and I asked him, I thought, no problem to ask question, is it? And I said, hey, thank you for your answer, but I didn't got the answer really. Can you help me to understand what we shall teach from the Baptist until the next Sunday where they can be ordained members and give the Holy Ghost? And he just looked with me, to me with, in my mind, his eyes are still black, you know, and he was kind of angry and he said, "You don't ask question like that." And I can see his friends around him, you know, separate a little bit, you know, and I said, "Thank you," for myself, and I just turned around and went. And I wonder, why is that so tough? And from that part, I would agree with your nephew that I support 11 of the apostles and pray for them. But I also, I mean, he probably is a very good man because I remember we had this special meeting with Marlin Jensen in New York afterwards and before the essay comes out. And we're talking about the problem of the youth and what they can learn through the internet and how can we act. And he said, you know, Hans, you should know something, the 12 apostles, and what they are. It's a minefield. You don't step in there and just ask questions. And I said, what do you mean? Aren't we all the children of God? Can't we just be, uh, you mustn't talk? No, it's a minefield. You have to really know how to come in there, you know, and ask questions and how you ask them. So I understand that there is a culture, the seniority, and the greenness, as we said as missionaries, you know, and that's very important for them, I guess, to have respect and to lead. And one thing I remember, Elton, no, Elapak, told us very strongly, he said, I'm worried about all the diaries that we have in the archives, you know, from members writing down things. And he said, I don't want you to do any diaries. Don't write down things because they come into the church archives and then people are seeking things. And learn things that we don't want them to learn. And it was a special moment.

That's interesting, because if you go back to Joseph Smith's time, there was a revelation in Doctrine and Covenants— I can't recall right now— where he was instructed to record everything, right? And now fast forward, they're telling you not to write things down or record things. It's extraordinary. I've heard some very mixed— putting it mildly and graciously— mixed views, opinions on Elder Packer. Our mission president speaks, President Ben B. Banks speaks very highly of Elder Packer and had some, I think he was trained, Ben B. Banks was trained to some extent by Elder Packer and Elder Packer towards the end of his life felt that the church had gone too far on some of the programs. I think he was probably a, you know, basic level, a good man, but he sounds, he's been described to me as someone like Darth Vader. That if you ask the wrong questions, you all of a sudden feel this difficulty to breathe when the pack of power is put upon you. I've heard it's quite a frightening character. So I mean, what an extraordinary experience. You've got this incredible lifelong devotion committed to the church. You're getting all these questions from members, from stake presidents. Genuinely seeking, you know, answers to honest questions, you know, and you weren't, you know, you weren't asking the right questions and you were asking, you know, the wrong questions of the wrong people. You weren't getting anywhere. You reached out to your wife and your children and thank goodness they were supportive and, you know, you've kept your family intact, which is great. What Going to Jim's point, Jim's spoken often about infallibility with leaders. You know, they've got this front that they present that they say they're not perfect, but they want to come across as people who are very in tune and they've got constant revelation from God, that God speaks to them, they're the mouthpiece of God. What can you speak, or can you speak a little bit more to the what you saw in your experience as a General Authority about the infallibility, the weaknesses of the leadership at that time, because we're going through extraordinary changes right now. You know, a lot of things impacting the church since you and I left the church. The church faces many, many challenges across different fronts and is struggling, frankly, to try to find its position on LGBTQ and abortion and political rights and a whole range of other issues. What's your experience, Hans, of understanding the infallibility of the leaders, the weaknesses and their attempts to come across as though they've got it all together and they're organized and they've got answers, but in reality, they haven't. Do you have any other anecdotes that you could share with us about the infallibility of leaders? The imperfections of the leaders?

I think it's a tough question to talk about what they're not good people, but they are. I can give you some other things that will be in the same subject really. One of the training meetings we had 2004 in the springtime when I was in Salt Lake And the president, Hinckley, he was the president then, he was quite strong and said, we don't baptize families. And this is the whole, the whole image of the church is family. Family stays together. Family only evening. Family so forever. And we were told that we have to push to help missionaries and to help members to help to find more families. I don't like that. Elton Perry come to Europe and He said, we have to find that Europe, this church is an aging church and is dying if you don't get fresh. So that's right. And then he said, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna go for the youth. And I said, well, okay, but if we will follow the prophet, he said we should go for families. He said, yeah, but you know, we have to get the youth because they get married and then they got families. And I thought, okay, different inspiration, kind of, but maybe I heard the EEOC told them that was a revelation for him to have youth. Now, Another situation was I was supposed to lead a stake conference in Norway. And Norway is a beautiful country. And they have, they had the little huts. I mean, in the mountains, you know, they have, yeah, huts. I think it's the word in English, is it?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And they said for East time, all Norwegians leave to go on the Hudson, you know, they stay there. And the conference that I should lead was on the East time. And when I talked to the counselor to the area press, I don't name his name now, he said that, well, you have authority to change that. So I talked to the state president and said, okay, what is your feelings? What shall we do? He said, can we just move the state conference a week? That would be lovely. Then we'll have a lot of members coming also, not just a few. And I said, great. So I made a report. I will change this conference. 2 days later, they had a meeting in the area presidency, and the counselor, who was a General Authority, was really hammered by the president. And he had to call me with the voice of the humble master, said, "I'm sorry, Elder Madsen. This is not my idea, but I have to tell you, you can't do it." You have to follow our president, even if I don't understand why. But, so he said, in the way you said, there's so much prestige that I am the boss and you follow boss, don't make your own decision. And so I had to call back to the State President, lovely time in the East there, we don't want to move again. Anyway, this is Hoggo de thing.

It reminds me of a story when you were talking earlier about you're not allowed to write down journals and don't keep— and this also goes with what you were talking about with plural marriage. My grandmother was the last surviving daughter of Heber J. Grant, and Heber J. Grant was a polygamist. But by the time he became president of the church, 2 of his 3 wives had died. And so he presented to the world as a monogamist. And my grandfather got very angry at one point because there was an article that talked about Heber J. Grant's wife, and he wrote a letter to the leaders of the church and said, are you saying my wife is illegitimate? Because you will acknowledge that her mother was married to Heber J. Grant. But Heber J. Grant had a very good relationship with all three of his wives. And was one of the few people who kind of figured out how to make polygamy work and had written all of these letters to my great-grandmother, to my grandmother's mother, and, and Truman Madsen. I don't know if you remember Truman Madsen. Yeah, but he, he was also— he was my father's first cousin. And so my grandmother was his aunt. And he was reading through these letters and he said, Francis, you have to publish these. You have to publish these so that the world will get a great view of what plural marriage really was like. And this was while Spencer W. Kimball was the president of the church. And my grandmother called President Kimball and said, Truman Madsen thinks I need to publish these. And Spencer Kimball was on her doorstep that same day, came to her home to talk to her about it. And what he said was, you are under no obligation to publish these because as good as these make polygamy look, I am a descendant of Heber C. Kimball and I've got polygamy all throughout my family line. And it's really messy and it's really ugly and I don't want to publish that. So I don't want you to feel like you have to publish something about polygamy to try to make polygamy look good. And, you know, when I hear those kinds of stories, it actually strengthens my faith. I mean, in the sense that I think it's such a much better story to believe that the church is being led by messy, flawed, and imperfect people and is still able to accomplish great things and do great things. Do you feel if that were the kind of story that you were raised with or that you were taught, that it would have been easier for you to stay in the church than it was when you had to confront the reality that yes, Joseph Smith's polygamy was an absolute mess and the racism behind the temple ban is an absolute mess, and we just don't talk about it, and we don't, we, you know, uh, do you think the church would be better served by an approach where all of that is out in the open?

I think as part what you're saying, it will, what must be much better if I have that teaching, if I have that understanding, and I have that, uh, knowledge of what really happened and not only the washed clean approach that this is the only true church and the prophet talks to God and he is so righteous so he can have a revelation. I think that, as you said, it would probably— I don't know, but I think so. But one other thing I think also would help is what I feel now is, you know, with sitting on those meetings and teachings, I don't remember any one of the Twelve or the First Presidency talk about the gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean, talking about the importance and how we should feel the love of Jesus, how we can be better servants, and what the gospel— I mean, expanding on the subject of the gospel. Never. It was more or less business as it is. And you were in the way that talking about the defality of the people. You know, we were called to release state presidents and to call new ones, you know. And there is a special moment there that you will interview bishops, high councilmen, and so on, and you pray a lot, and you ask what the Lord wants, and so on., and when you companion, you look at the job, you feel this is what I feel the Lord wants us to, the man who wants us to call, and we do that calling, and then next teachings we have in Church Office Building, it said, listen, you are calling state president that we not really are impressed with. You have to be better to choose better state president. And we also like to go with you as an apostle out to choose state president. And in my mind, you know, I feel, what do you mean? I'm praying, I feel inspired, and I call them, and then you said, You have to call better. Shall I blame God or is it something wrong with me? I know there's quite a few state presidents being called. But things like that kind of disturb me a little bit that we feel impressed and then we don't. And we are told you're not doing the right thing. And also being out with the calling stake president, you know, he had to go with an apostle calling, and before we even interviewed, what do you think about this guy? Do you think we should take him? And I said, maybe we should talk to all of them, you know, maybe we should pray. It was not that important, you know. And I felt, why can't I have a spiritual experience for this apostle now when we are choosing? We are trying to choose the one God wants to have as the stake president here. So that's some questions and feelings I had. Another situation, we were out calling another stake president in a Nordic country. And I met this General Authority in the morning, and he told me, "Boy, it's tough. I saw some porn on the television yesterday, you know, it's tough, you know. It kind of gave me a bad feeling." And I thought that I didn't even answer that question. I said, "Okay." and let's do a good job together. So what I mean is, they are men as we are. They have the faults and the strengths. And like you said, Jim Bennett, even if they have this problem, they still do a good job. Sometimes. Not always.

Well, and this might be— we talked a little bit about this in our pre-meeting, but does the second anointing complicate some of this? I mean, when you receive that, you talked about that. I know you talked about that with John Dallin to some degree, but when you receive that, do you sort of receive— get— get the sense that, well, I'm perfect now, you know, I'm, I'm now sealed to exaltation. So really, I can't do anything wrong. I could, because that's sort of my impression, is that some of these men receive that and then assume that that's sort of the stamp of approval, that everything they do is what God would do. Is that an accurate perception?

I would say for me, it was— everything was new and it was so spiritual. And then to have this second anointing given to me and my wife, and then I was 200% in the church. And the spirit guided me. And what I mean is, when we had that, I didn't feel I was any different in my way of living. I know I am a fool. I will do something wrong probably more or less. And no, I don't say that after that, that we don't do anything wrong. I will follow the Lord all the time. Uh, I just felt that was special, that the one represent of the God said, now, when you went to the temple first time, you were, uh, allowed to be someone as a god or priestess or so on. And he said, now God has said you are all right. You are made it already. And of course, that's quite a heavy force, you know, that he is gone. And of course, he said, I think I understand that. There's only two things, is to murder or to deny the Holy Ghost. Then everything is all right, even if you do something wrong. So in a way, I don't think people have to have the second anointing to feel they are just doing everything the Lord wants them to do. I think they tried, but I don't think they— at least I didn't.

Hans, many of our listeners, including myself and Jim Bennett, are fascinated by the second anointing. Could you— is there an apostle present, I think, at a second anointing? That's the first question, you know, who was there, if you can speak to that, and secondly, Were you instructed not to disclose or share your experience or knowledge about the second anointing?

That's correct. I understand that the Albert is one of the 12 who are doing the second anointing and leading and do the washing and anointing and and instruct us what to do. And he also was very clear that we're not supposed to tell anybody about it.

Just to clarify— Oh, don't— you didn't— I don't want to interrupt you, but, uh, who was the apostle? And was this done when you were called as an Area Authority, or was this done when you were called as a— into a mission presidency or into a stake presidency? I just want to get the frame.

Yes, I, I have been— I was called as a Seventy, and after 2 years I had this call, appointment to meet at the Frankfurt Temple and take my wife with me, nothing more, on a Sunday afternoon. And, and, uh, We were about 4 couples there, and we didn't talk because we couldn't tell anybody what the secret meeting. And, uh, and he's there, Elder Ballard. Elder Ballard, he was the one who was leading and take care of all the, yeah. Ceremonies that were doing there. And even now, if I'm not a member, I still feel kind of, I don't want to tell you too much about it. You can read it in my book. I feel, yeah, that he told us, if someone asks you if you have know about the second anointing or have that, you should deny it. If you come to me with some situations and I see you and you started to talk about the second anointing, I will deny it. So it feels like it's very, very secret or sacred. And it's holy and you don't talk about it. And they tried to keep it that way.

Very simple question. Why? I mean, I look at the early history of the church and Joseph Smith was more than willing to talk about any and all of his supernatural experiences, his visitations from angels. Visitations from the Savior, the First Vision, although that he didn't really start talking about that publicly until near the end of his life. But why is this, you know, in prep for this, you know, I, I've talked to lots of members of the church, and, you know, it's like, I'm still an active believing member, uh, I don't ever recall making a covenant not to discuss the second anointing. Not to ask about the second anointing.

When you have one, you probably will.

Well, I don't— I'm not holding my breath on that. But I think there are members of my family— I know all four of my grandparents have had the second anointing because when we were going through their papers after they died, We found the letter saying exactly what the letter said to you. Come to the temple. Don't tell anybody you're going. And all of that. I have not ever had the courage to ask my parents about it. My father has since passed, and I just can't imagine asking my mother. And so I'm just going to sort of drop that. I suspect that they have had it as well. But the amount of secrecy surrounding this, even so far as to— I would, I would bet that if you took a poll of members of the church, that the vast majority of them wouldn't know that the second anointing is a thing, that it exists. And I've had discussions with my daughter about it, and she's become fascinated by it and has just gone down the rabbit hole and read every report she possibly can about it. And, and I, you know, I know that there's this sort of taboo to not only not talk about it, but not even to acknowledge that it's real, that it exists. I— why do you have an answer to that? Because I've never heard an answer to that. It's sad, but—

No, sorry, I don't know if I have an answer, but I can feel that it will strengthen the Church among the leadership. I mean, Joseph Smith also had his inner circle, and through the temple and so on, they were given a commitment to support and to do everything for the gospel. And the church, the kingdom of God. And I think those who had the second anointing, they have something that strengthen, strengthen them, and they know there are more of us out there special. So we are loyal to the church, we're loyal to the gospel, and we follow the prophets, and we follow Jesus, uh, also, I guess, so in a way. This is only in my mind that I'll be thinking about it. Kind of a way to get loyalty for the cause.

So you're part of a super secret club. Yes. And that sort of binds you together. You think that's the reason for the secrecy?

Yeah, yes. And also, the thing is, I don't know anyone who has the second anointing. There's no list, there's no companion. Hey, this is your group. All of us, we have the second. No, I only know the ones who were there when I was there.

Oh, wow. I never thought of that, but yeah. That's interesting. And so, well, because I know when people speculate about the second anointing, they look at a stake president and go, well, is that high enough? Do they have— they had their second anointing. You know, my parents, my father was never a stake president, or he was a bishop, but that's as high as he went in church ecclesiastical authority. But I think he got to know the brethren quite well in his political capacity. And so, you know, I, I've read the, the account of Tom Phillips in the UK.

Yeah.

Who, as far as I know, wasn't, um, a stake president or any of those. So, so it doesn't sound like there is sort of an official— and you say, this is interesting, this is the first I realized, you said it was 2 years after you were called as a Seventy before, uh, this was done. And, and that was interesting to because I'd always assumed that once you get to be a 70, that that's part of the call, that the second anointing is performed as a rite of passage as part of the call. But it sounds like that's not the case.

No, it's not, because one of those that were with me in the temple is now one of the apostles.— and oh, you know, he was also General Authority. He was called the same day I was. Oh, I don't want to give you names, but there are a few being called the same day I was, but he was a General Authority, yeah.

I heard it happens on Monday or Sunday nights, is that correct?

Sunday, Sunday, Sunday afternoon.

Sunday afternoon, wow, okay. Just a few points coming out here. Fascinating by this experience, Hans. I appreciate you sharing this with us. Just going back a little bit, it's interesting that part of the revelatory process for calling state presidents, and I've argued many times that the church, if it can control the state presidents at the state president level, is controlling most of the rank-and-filing members of the church. I was told everything happens pretty much at the state. Yeah, I, I, over the years I've been trained by General Authorities, you know, the Christians in Area Authority Seventies as members of the Stake Presidency, uh, you know, those meetings that are area authority meetings or regional— I think they call them now Regional Coordinating Councils. We've got the Mission President, Area Authority Seventy, State President, etc., etc. And it's interesting that the revelatory process for stake presidents is a lot of it's based not necessarily on prayer, but based on what the stake president thinks or how obedient they are in respect to holding the line and church policy and church doctrine, that a lot of the focus is on the stake president candidates' level of obedience. That's what I get from this call in terms of the revelatory process. Um, the other thing that comes to mind is in the Book of Mormon, extensively throughout the Book of Mormon, it talks about the Gadianton robbers, secret combinations, and it talks, uh, frequently about the, the downfall of civilization because of the corruption of, uh, uh, secret societies, fraternities, secret combinations. Here we are, we've got Joseph Smith who likes to talk about all the details, which is, I think, is great. Things like Stone of the Hat never bothered me. I know it bothers some people. I'm fascinated by that side of the church, which the church tries to keep quiet now. It never really bothered so much with me, but now they're trying to keep so many things quiet, like the second anointing, which I think is— I don't see anything wrong with second anointing necessarily. You know, the church now is behaving, at least in my opinion, like a secret combination or keeping things quiet. The fact that you don't know who else is called, I can see why they do it. You know, I mean, it's the military theory about keeping your generals close, providing privileges, you know, keeping that inner circle nice and tight, extending privilege to the elite. And I see that being quite problematic. But if the church talked about it and was open, and disclosed it and talked about the spirituality of the second anointing, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, the washing, the anointing of the feet, the apostle present, etc., those promises and covenants that you make in the second anointing, and was open about it and transparent, I think it would be less of a problem for the members. Right now it looks like, you know, people with second anointings are part of this elite club, special, elite, privileged, et cetera. And it's part of like a, to me at least, it sounds like it's part of a secret combination of a deep inner circle. I don't know if I'm mischaracterizing the second anointing.

Well, it depends who you are and how you look at it.

I guess.

And of course you can make the parallels as you do now that they are similar. But I don't know, really.

I'm really taken by the fact that even now after you've left, that still this second anointing was such a special moment for you. And you still speak about it with reverence and you're still sort of reticent to talk about it openly. Some people— well, I've read different things about the second anointing. Some people are under the impression when they've been offered the second anointing that this is akin to the second Comforter that Jesus talks about in the New Testament. Where he says, I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you. And they've expected that at the process of the second anointing, that's when you actually see the Savior, that Jesus himself physically participates in this ceremony. I remember, Ian, I don't know if you were— you had gone home from your mission by the time President Banks was called as a General Authority. Is that right? Yes, because he came back and everybody in the mission was talking about, you know, this, this was our mission president. He was called as a— called to the First Quorum of the Seventy while he was a mission president. And he came back and everybody said, oh, we can see the mantle on him. And in zone conference, I remember him standing up and talking about going into the Holy of Holies. And he's saying— and that's where I remember his words because I, I, as a young missionary, I thought, oh my goodness, he went into the Holy of Holies and he saw the Savior. And he says that's where the president of the church goes in and talks with himself. I mean, he caught himself and said that's where he talks with himself, and leaving the impression to all of us that, oh, we know who he talks to. And so, so It doesn't sound like, or maybe you just don't want to talk about it, but it doesn't sound like Jesus himself personally was in the room. Did you expect Jesus to be in the room? I mean, was that sort of part of the expectation, or is that just something that dumb missionaries like myself attach to it?

I can give you the secret. Jesus was not there. He was not there. But the Holy Ghost, if he still exists, he was there. And I think, you know, I'm going back to my missionary time. We love missionaries to talk about miracles, things that happen, and, and they saw God. And, uh, you know, so many stories goes around there that I don't know. I think just is a way to strengthen yourself while you are there. No, there is— it's the same with the 12. I've never seen Jesus. They sometimes say it's too holy to speak about them. That's the way to say I haven't seen them, but I feel good about it. And Elder, the German fox, sorry, I lost his name.

Dieter Uchtdorf.

Oh, just it.

Uchtdorf.

Yes, he said, you know, you should know that every decision we do, we always pray a lot. And I thought, uh-huh, that's fantastic. I mean, isn't that what we all do? And you said, as an apostle, before you make a decision, you pray a lot.

Very good.

So I think, I mean, I think It's not that special. I mean, I can tell you like this. I can feel the same inspiration now when I'm not in the church because I have information, I meditate, I got inspiration, and then I know what to do. And sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong. But I still feel happy. I feel inspired. I feel good about it. As I did when I was in the company business world. We sit at the leaders and talk about what's good for this company, what's the problems with it. And we feel like we have to do the things and we felt very inspired without The Holy Ghost was there, but I feel people that are honest, that try to do good, they feel inspiration to do things. And I think exactly the same with the Twelve and how they work. And they got, you know, we as an Area Authority and a General Authority, you got so much information, you know, they send you out what happened in the world, what the youth are doing in U.S., and what the problem is with abortion, and all those information comes all the time, and you don't have time to read everything, but they will give the apostles and the leaders of the church information and to be inspired and to do what they shall do.

Well, I just, I so love what you've said here. I think that is so helpful. And I think it's faith building because when they go around and tell everybody these things, I mean, I know Elder Cook in the Twelve Apostles, one of the phrases he likes to say is, "I know his voice. I know his face." And that's as far as he's willing to go. And that very clearly, at least to a big segment of the church, gives the impression that, well, you know his voice and you know his face because you've seen him. You've been with him. I think there are, there's a large segment of the church that believes that every Thursday meeting of the apostles, uh, that Jesus comes and has a chair and sits down. And it's right there.

Now, I wonder, when they had the meeting, it's a minefield, don't forget that. And I don't think this has become a minefield, it will explode.

Right, right. You know, but see, I even think that's faith-building too. When, you know, I have, and I can't identify this person, I think because I think it would hurt them professionally. But I have somebody who professionally sort of works in this world and talked about a meeting where there were two apostles in the room. And one of the apostles looked at this person and said, look, look at my, you know, Person X, my friend Person X, and said, you tell Elder So-and-so that he's dead wrong about this, this, this. And the other apostle looked at Person X and said, oh yeah, well, you tell Elder So-and-so that he's wrong about this. I mean, they were in the same room and they were so angry at each other that they weren't willing to speak to each other. And I remember talking to my mother about this and she said, oh, that's so childish, that's nonsense, that never happens. And, and I— it absolutely happens. And I— we, we have painted this false picture of a placid, perfect church where these apostles float in the clouds and, and don't deal with the kinds of day-to-day difficulties and challenges. I can't imagine how hard it would be to be called into a group of 12 men that you are stuck with until the day you die. So I, I've been in jobs where I've had coworkers that I can't stand or a boss that I can't stand, and I can always resign. I can leave. I can go do something else. And I have. These guys, you know, we talk about Elder Packer. There's the apocryphal story that I think is probably true, where President Benson's grandson who left the church was meeting with Dallin Oaks because he had such a terrible time with Elder Packer. And Dallin Oaks's response was, look, you can't stage manage a grizzly bear. And Elder Packer is the grizzly bear. Yeah, you know, you know, I've heard all kinds of stories of Elder Packer. Um, uh, he wasn't able to hold a secretary because they all quit because he would yell at them and he would chase them down the— I had a guy, a friend of mine, again I want to identify who he is, but he said he worked in the church office building and he, he watched Elder Packer run down the hall chasing one of his secretaries just yelling at the top of his lungs because the secretary was in tears and had done something wrong. You know, the, these are people, the reason why I think it's faith building is that these are people who experience God the same way I do, the same way everybody does. And every human being on this planet has as much direct access to their Heavenly Father as Russell M. Nelson does, or as any General Authority does. And I think that is such a more powerful and true message than, well, the only people who really encounter God are the people in the secret club, the people who have gotten this secret special anointing, and they're the people who see Jesus every Thursday I mean, that's just, that's a fairy tale. That's nonsense. That isn't, I don't think that changes any lives. I think Hans, the kinds of stories you are telling here are the kinds of stories that build faith, that strengthen faith. You know, you are a good man trying to do good things and you run into all these obstacles and yet you still undaunted, pressed forward, trying to do the right thing. I think that's a story that should inspire people. It's certainly a story that inspires me. Am I up in the night? Am I crazy?

Not yet.

Not yet.

I'm getting there.

I'm getting there.

But can I ask you, what do you think, why do you think some of the leaders on the top try to give you impression that they know his voice?

And they know his face and so on.

I think actually they do because they need to have the power. They want the people to look up to them. And when they speak, they speak as a representative from the guy they meet in the Holy of Holies and so on. Let me tell you a story. When I visited Finland, as an area authority had a conference, and I talked and taught and teach the leaders there, and afterwards the stake president took me to the airport, and he told me, "Elder Madsen," he said, "Is it a thing you are thinking about thing what you taught?" Today, everybody was so impressed. And I thought, fantastic to hear one of the authorities coming here and teach us those things. But I said, you know, we've been teaching the same things for 2 years. But when you did it, they think this is fantastic. And I think the difference is that they expect something when someone come to visit you and you said, hey, I'm an Air Authority. I talk to the Twelve. They teach me and this is what I want you to know. Even if this same thing. And that's a, you have to figure out why is it like that? And this is the same, I think, for the Twelve when they speak. They need to be listened to and they want to have this, the power of leadership and you should follow them. Don't speak evil things of the one God had chosen.

Yeah.

No, this is good. As soon as the rank and file members learn what Jim Bennett has just stated, that the brethren are just like you and I, you know, they get revelation from the same place, they pray, they're not any more special than we are, although they use the term special witness. I'm not sure what they mean by that these days, but—

Well, they changed it too, because they used to say they were special witnesses of Christ, and now they say they're special witnesses of the name of Christ.

Of the name of Christ.

And I've also heard special witnesses for Christ, use the word for, but the reality is, you know, people get spirituality in the same way, you know, as the apostles do through prayer and inspiration, that the brethren don't have any or hold any unique position. They don't want the rank-and-file members to know that, but it certainly, that's been my experience, and that's coming through from this conversation. Hans, we're at the end of our podcast here. I want to take this opportunity to Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to be with us, to open up, to share. You're an incredible man, a wonderful individual. Before we close here for the last few minutes, is there any other messages, thoughts that you'd like to share with Jim Bennett and with our listeners at this time?

This is my thoughts. I feel I am a Christian. Not that I go to Christian church every Sunday, but I love the teaching of Jesus and I try to live the teaching he gave us. And I learned something from a priest in the Swedish church. Protestant church, he said, Jesus will find you as you are, and he will find you where you are. And I think that's something I really love in my heart, that I don't have to be someone else. I try to do my best. I try to love people. I try to encourage people to do good. And you know what I learned in the temple, that this world, it belonged to Satan. The people outside the church, you are really, really scared because you will be in my power, you know. But I found there are so many good people, so many new friends I have that is not in the church. But they're good. They give, they support, they're willing to give you what you need. And I think I'm just happy to know that this world is not that bad. The people are very good, but there are some bad things, but I don't like them.

I like the good people.

And I think Jesus finds you where you are and as you are. And the last thing it says in my book is, "Love wins. You are my brother and my sister," I will say today. So that's, I think I will close.

We, we will end it on that extraordinary, wonderful note. Hans, thank you so much from Jim and I for taking the time to be with us today. We love you and appreciate you. Give our love to your family. Thank you so much, Jim. As always, it's been a pleasure having these experiences with you. Any comment, Jim, to Hans before we leave?

Just to say thank you, Hans. Just to say it's such a delight to meet you. It's such a delight to feel of your spirit, to see your goodness and your decency. And I think your story will help many people, and I'm very, very grateful for your willingness to share it with us.

Amen. It's been a wonderful spirit here, brethren, on the podcast. Thank you again. A special thank you to our listeners. We hope you enjoyed this week's episode, and we hope that you, uh, you, you, you are strengthened by it. Hans, on behalf of the Inside Out Podcast, Jim Bennett and I, and all our listeners, thank you so much for being with us.

Gracias, as you say in Spain.