A Conversation with Jeff Strong

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. I am Ian Wilkes, and I'm usually joined by Jim Bennett, who is not here because he has some other commitments. So I'm flying Inside Out solo. I'm flying the plane and I'm a technically kind of a junior co-pilot. So if we crash, then it's down to my inexperience of flying the plane. But I have something very exciting to share today on Inside Out. Someone that I've heard some extraordinary things about and an individual that I'd wish I'd met years ago during my faith crisis.. And so by way of introduction, I would like to introduce to you a wonderful, very special guest, Jeff Strong. Jeff, welcome to Inside Out.

Thank you, Ian. It's so good to be here with you. I'm excited to have a good discussion today.

Likewise. This is such an honor and there's such a wonderful spirit about you already. We were chatting before we clicked record here and I can tell There's just a unique and distinct spirit about me. And you asked me something very interesting that no one's asked me in quite some time, which hopefully we'll get back to. But by way of introduction and for the benefit of our viewers and listeners, Jeff, you are a successful American business executive. You're an educator, you're an author. You spent 30 years in the global consumer products industry. Holding senior executive roles at Procter Gamble and Johnson Johnson, including positions as global president and chief customer officer. That's a significant professional role. Uh, you are a lifelong member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Uh, you served as a bishop, as a mission president, and you've held senior appointments at BYU faculty, uh, and as an advisor to the Church. You've written a book that is changing people's lives, and your book is titled Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What Can We Learn from Them? And you've done extensive research, which you draw on to produce and to have written that book. And the book is supported by this comprehensive study which you undertook and you researched and you engaged with, uh, thousands of Latter-day Saints who have experienced, uh, disaffiliation and issues with the church, including information from the survey data from more than 20,000 current and former members. And in your book, uh, and your research approach, you examined why, uh, an estimated 40% of, uh, once-active, uh, US Latter-day Saints have stepped away from the church. Over that period. Your book carries forward from football, Pro Football Hall of Fame quarterback and faithful Latter-day Saint Steve Young, which I'd love to talk to you about. And your book, your research for your book started approximately 13 years ago before recent publication, after your son, a newly arrived, who newly arrived at the Mission Training Center, wrote home to say, he decided to leave, uh, his mission. Uh, again, your book, which is titled Tom, uh, tackles what I think is one of the most critical questions facing the Latter-day Saint community: why, uh, you know, so many people are stepping away. And basically, you have, uh, reframed the— reframed the question, uh, which is in your title of your book, and you've reframed it instead of rather asking How to Bring People Back, you ask what those who are leaving are trying to tell the church and what leaders, family members, and friends can learn by listening carefully. And so I, I, each episode that we do, we have these wonderful guests and I am so excited to have all the guests on, but this one is very different and very special and very distinct. And so could you give us a little bit of context as to what led you to write the book. I know your son wrote home and other factors like bishop, you know, state president, bishop president, et cetera. What were you trying to achieve with writing the book?

Yeah, well, first of all, I just want to thank you for that really kind introduction and let you know how much I'm excited to be able to visit with you. And I, you know, I don't know if Jim Bennett will join us or not, but I, I love what the two of you are doing., and I, I love the kind of conversations that you have on air. And so it's exciting for me to be here. And I, I think we're going to have a very thoughtful conversation today. You know, Ian, I mean, it, it, it was, it started off pretty simple. Um, Kael left from the MTC and then left the church at almost the same time I was seeing families in my ward where I was a bishop step away from the church. So this was 2013, the spring and summer of 2013. And it just didn't make sense to me. And so the narrative that was very common in the LDS community, and it's still very prevalent today in spite of many, many years of potential learning, was that yes, people are leaving the church, but they're just those people that don't have the faith and character to be Latter-day Saints. And I don't know that I ever deeply bought into that, but I sort of accepted it as an explanation. And then all of a sudden it was my son who didn't fit that profile. And these several families in the ward where I was the bishop, and they definitely didn't fit that profile. And, you know, for example, you don't fit that profile, you know. And so my, my stubborn brain just wouldn't let go of that when the words and the pictures don't match. Uh, the way that I'm wired is I want to understand like what's going on. Why is the narrative inaccurate? What's really happening? Why are these good salt-of-the-earth Latter-day Saints stepping away? Why did my son make this choice when it seemed to me, on the surface at least, his entire life he loved the church? In fact, Ian, he called me the day he got his mission call. He was in California and I was working in Salt Lake City. My phone rang and he was over the moon excited to be heading to Japan. And so none of this made sense to me, and I just felt deeply conflicted and troubled. And so that was really the start of the journey 13 years ago. Thank you for that.

That's excellent context and background and speaks about the motivation in you to write and to do the research. And the goal ultimately is to help people. In your research, because I think the bedrock of the book is the extensive, comprehensive, and reliability of the research, you know, the research methodology. The sources, you know, getting the information from, uh, real people with real experiences and, and getting that directly. So extraordinary effort, which I, uh, uh, applaud you on for going to those great lengths because it's both quantitative and qualitative in terms of the research base, which is really important. But you found in your extensive research, there were at least 4 primary reasons why people were leaving. And I, I looked this up when you were speaking online at a, a video that you presented. You talk about lifestyle as one of the reasons why people leave, social issues, not putting them in order necessarily, uh, church history and church experience within the difficulty relating to the overlay of the culture. Implying, I think you said that many people, uh, enjoyed the culture and, and was able to benefit, uh, enormously for having this wonderful, rich, uh, culture and community in the church. But could you speak to the 4 primary reasons why, uh, people are left that I mentioned earlier? You even give some percentages, I think, as to those. 4 primary reasons, and maybe drill down a little bit, give us a couple of examples of, of, you know, what was, you know, the details behind those primary reasons, if you will.

Yeah, that sounds good, Ian. I think what I'll do is let me give you sort of the macro view of it and give you sort of the spirit or the ethos of each of these waves, and then I'll back up and go into detail on each. So Wave 1 is lifestyle, about 6% of people cited this as their primary reason for stepping away. And the bumper sticker I would give is people would say, "I just couldn't keep living this way." And so this wave is about depletion, not about doubt. Wave 2 is church history. About 42% cited this as the primary reason. This one's one that's really familiar to most Latter-day Saints, but the bumper sticker would be, Hey, I just don't think the church is what it claims to be. The third area is social issues, 33%. The bumper sticker I would give you here would be, hey, even if the church is true, I can't support this. And then the fourth issue or fourth wave is church experience. The bumper sticker here is, this doesn't feel like a church that's led by Christ. And it's not life-giving, and I'm feeling unnourished here. So those are the 4 waves at a macro level. Should we back up and go into a little bit of detail on each?

Absolutely. And just while you're doing that, it'd be useful— this will be very easy for you, this question— could you identify a number of common denominators in each of those primary groups, if you can?

Sure, I'll do my best. And please ask questions if you have questions. Wave 1 lifestyle, the most common thing people talked about is controlling people's cycle. 29% mental health strain, 25% guilt and shame, and then much smaller numbers, 7% excess time demands and 5% missionary pressure. And so, this is, this is, a function of people that just feel like, man, there's too much to do, too many meetings, too many expectations. All of this makes me feel mental health strain. I may be feeling some guilt and shame. And there's a little bit of scrupulosity in here. And so the bottom line is these are not people that are experiencing doubts. They're just worn out. And so one comment someone said is, hey, it just feels like "There's no way to rest without feeling guilt, and I'm just worn out." One thing I would say about this wave is for a person to select this as their primary reason, it's not very self-validating, right? "Hey, okay, I'm going to pick lifestyle as my primary reason." And so, my guess is this wave is a bit understated. It might be It could be double, could be 12% instead of 6%. So it's important in the spirit of being balanced here to say this wave could be a bit understated in our study. Ian, do you have any questions about Wave 1?

I do. I do. I'll just make you some notes there. So, and I don't know if it's covered in your book. So, um, as I've listened to you, I'm thinking of, again, as a former bishop, stake presidency member. Leader, there's a lot of focus and emphasis on measuring performance in the church. We measure performance on missions. We measure performance in, um, we don't really, the temple activity right now, but I'm hearing that's going to change. We'll see what happens there. Well, you know, home teaching or ministering, there's a certain metric that leaders of the church measures, you know, Temple recommends, Uh, people, you, you mentioned the priesthood. There's that general metric that bishops and stake presidents are trained to oversee and to manage and to measure. So when I'm listening to you as to those social pressures and guilt, et cetera, missionary, uh, obligations, what do you see a relationship between, um, the church's, um, system of measuring performance and those issues that you have spoken about. And President Monson talks about, he said, what gets measured gets done.

Yeah.

And what gets, again, I'm paraphrasing it, what gets measured and is reported, the rate of performance accelerates or increases, or kind of paraphrase that broadly. But you see what I'm getting at, right? You've got these people. Now it's, it is, right.

It's so funny because this is such a good question. And, you know, I'm a corporate guy, right? So I was a C-level executive at Johnson Johnson. And so I understand, you know, strategy, operations, scorecarding, KPIs, you know, accountability measures. And I know in a business world, those things are essential for success. But it, but it's interesting because as corporate as my training has been for all of my education, plus a 30-year business career. And understanding the value of those things, that there just is a disconnect from a pastoral perspective. And I can't remember who said this. Maybe you'll know. I think it might have been Albert Einstein said, "All that counts can't be counted." And so in a pastoral sense, none of those things matter, you know? And, you know, this is coming from a, you know, a hardened corporate executive that's talking to you right now. And so I know as a father, as a bishop, as a mission president, as a friend and neighbor, uh, in the context of the gospel and the church, none of the things that really, really matter can be measured. Right. And so I think that's the essence of the, maybe the conflict that we're, we're getting a glimpse at in this wave. And, and by the way, in wave 4.

Yeah, that makes sense to me because I'm also a former senior executive, one of these large global consulting engineering enterprises, you know, 60,000-size company measured, you know, all kinds of stuff, BD, revenue, new business in, labor over forecast, all that stuff, all these quality, all these systems in these big engineering projects. And so, you know, that's from a corporate perspective, I can see why the church would want to do that. Yeah. And over my master's degree, I did a lot of, I actually developed with the lecture there, some research methodology around positivistic and phenomenological systems. And in the church, uh, it's difficult and probably unnecessary to measure the phenomenological, uh, element of, of someone's life, you know, like love and the— as feel experiences. I don't think that can or even should be measured, right? How do you measure someone's spirituality? But in, in the church culture, which will get to in a second. There's this correlation unwritten, but it does exist. Yeah. That if you're really high up in the church, bishop and your stake president, you are more spiritual than the rest, which I found was not the case, by the way. No. So is this the phenomenological, this thing about the things that you can count, you know, uh, either can't count certain things or you shouldn't count certain things. Yeah. That's a really important, uh, thing to talk about because I think the church has gone too far. In measuring these phenomenological, these other spiritual experiences. And it's not necessary because surely the motivation is love, right? You know, we, if you serve people, just do it for the love. Don't measure everything and check all these boxes like you do on a mission or in the, uh, you know, in the senior college. And bishops and state princes are also measured on convert baptisms. And if you're not meeting the quota, well, maybe you do something wrong. Maybe you're not living right, or maybe, you know, that scrupulosity, maybe you're not worthy enough, or you're not, you know, close enough to God, and therefore you're the reason why the church is not succeeding, and not necessarily because of the issues. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it totally makes sense. Can I share a little insight I got as a mission president on this?

Absolutely. Go ahead.

I'm a numbers guy. Anybody that knows corporations knows that I would be a numbers guy. And then of course I did research, so that's numbers. Mission presidents have wonderful dashboards that tell them what's going on in the mission, right? And as a guy that appreciates data and numbers, I valued those things. But here's the insight I would give you. So my wife's name is Sarah, and you know, when you serve with your spouse as mission leaders, it's kind of a 24/7 calling, right? And you sleep, but you're talking about what's going on in the mission constantly. And one of the things we learned is that we really never had a sense for how missionaries were doing unless we were physically with them. So we could read the reports, we could even— I'd read their weekly letters, but what we found is the reports and the weekly letters would give us one perspective on how they were doing, And then we would go out to do zone conference or an interview, to interview, and we would spend 8 hours with 20 or 30 missionaries, and then we actually knew what was, how they were doing, right? So we would, we would leave the stake center after having spent all day with them, and we would look at each other and we would say, the numbers aren't telling us the whole truth here, right? And you know, Ian, to be honest with you, it was almost always when we would leave from having been with them, we always felt so much better about how they were doing and what we were sensing from the numbers and the letters. When you're with them and you can feel their spirits and you can look in their eyes and you can shake their hands and there's a personal connection, there's a level of knowledge that is transferred that you just can't get through data and a letter.

I couldn't agree more with you. When I was writing into my mission, every week you had to write into the mission president, let him know how it's going, right? You know, your personal letters, as you know, as a mission president. And I would give him my best side.

Yeah.

I never complimented him. I never, and I want to be successful. I was driven, motivated. I want to make sure I was, you know, successful missionary. Um, and I, I told him what I thought he wanted to hear because mission president I didn't have a relationship with really. There was a lot of, um, distrust there. And it was unique to me. It was a very different mission president compared to my second mission president. And it didn't have the relationship, I don't think, with the missionaries. And therefore, you're not going to be open and honest about how you feel. So I just told him what I was doing, you know, what I thought he wanted to hear. And, and he didn't really know that, you know, at times I was struggling., on the mission. So, you know, having that, you clearly were, uh, probably no doubt, undoubtedly an extraordinary mission person that you were able to spend that time with, um, individuals on a one-to-one basis and get to know them because at the end of the day, before we were missionaries and before, you know, we were us, we were individuals, right? We were, you know, Ian, Jeff, and we are who we are. And so getting to know the person on a personal, uh, level. And their struggles and their successes and their failures and having that trust and confidence from the missionary. That's, that's beyond the numbers, right? So the reason why I kind of emphasize the numbers is that a lot of the things that I've experienced are in these areas, I think, to do with how the church measures progress, right? It's big on mentoring, on stuff that can control and measure and, and, and, and make yourself look good, frankly. And the stuff that are not going so well, well, It tends to be, you know, lately the last few years, fairly quiet about the things that are not going so well. Could you move to the other, uh, priority?

So let's hit wave 2. And, you know, for, for most people that have made, made a sincere effort to understand the issues in our history, there isn't any new insight here, but I'll just hit a few things. So wave 2 is 40%, 42% cited it as the primary reason they stepped away. Biggest issue was doctrine and truth claims, which was cited by 39% of people. Problematic church history, 28%. And then much, much lower, troubling temple practices, 12%. Polygamy and its legacy, 12%. And distrusting church leaders, 9%. Ian, the way I would encourage your audience to think about these numbers, it's not about precision, right? And so what we're trying to do with a study like this is learn. We're not trying to prove anything. We're not trying to win arguments. We're just trying to learn. And so you look for degree of magnitude as opposed to precision. But, but this is, this is the single biggest wave. And doctrines and truth claims and problematic church history are the two biggest areas that people cite most frequently.

Interesting. As I'm listening to you, there's an old saying I learned in the corporate sector when I was in those senior roles. And it goes like this, that perfection is the enemy of progress.

Yes.

And so there's never a perfect plan. I've worked on mega projects and there's always a problem. There's something, you know, you've got the human side, you know, the, again, the phenomenological side, the is basically with hard systems and good project delivery, complex projects, except engineering sciences. And so, you know, you've got the human element, which is inescapable, you know, and so, and so that, uh, you know, is a, you know, really important, uh, you know, point to, you know, to consider.

Um, hey, by the way, you mentioned you'd had Richard Bushman on as a guest and, uh, You know, given your comment, I, I, I loved Rough Stone Rolling and I, I think I read it 3 times just to make sure that I sort of got the gist of it. And then I was at BYU a few years ago and Richard was there doing a, he was there as a guest speaker and I was with a small group that got to have lunch with him. And I just so much appreciate that book and what Richard did. You know, it's an epic book, you know, incredible book. And I had friends when it came out that said, "Oh, you know, don't read that book. It'll destroy your faith." You know, and it did the opposite for me, Ian. The third time I read it and put it down, I actually read it when I was a mission president the last time, I felt grateful. You know, I said, "Okay, the Restoration was very messy. It was meandering. Joseph Smith was a complicated person." And, you in my beliefs, somehow God was able to work through that mess and do something that's really beautiful. Problematic. We've got warts for sure, but there was something divine and good about what took place in spite of all the humanity that was getting in the way. And the reason I felt grateful is I thought, okay, well, maybe my life's going to amount to something because it felt like my life, my life has been meandering. I'm a complicated character. I've made mistakes. And so it made Joseph Smith and the Restoration a little more approachable for me.

Yeah. Jeff, you are so refreshing. My gosh, I wish I'd have met you. I mentioned at the beginning, I promise you, I wish I'd have met you many years ago. I, it is the spirit that you carry, which is so wonderful and refreshing. We've had Richard Bushman on a few times. We have enormous love and respect for him. We ought to have him back on again in the near future. His book, I think, is a very, very, it's just an extraordinary piece of work of research. And he's trying to walk this line, right? You know, between dealing with issues, right? Historical issues in a very honest way, in a very way that was credible and an honest, constructive way, but also without damaging people's faith.

Yes.

Does a really good job. Uh, you can't please everybody all the time. He's gonna satisfy people who've got questions and doctrinal questions, historical questions, and he, he does extraordinary with the book to, uh, help people understand, you know, those difficult issues. And the other side is, um, probably where it's more problematic for him is the faithful who are very thick, as I used to be. In this lane that you're taught, you know, this is how it all happened kind of thing. And anything outside of that is actually either gray area or we don't know, or it's speculation or it's anti-Mormon, et cetera, et cetera. And he tries to walk that fine balance there. And I think there's an extraordinary job and he has attracted criticism for the book. And so for someone like me and you, we find that honest scholarly historical documents, you know, that book he's written, it's been very refreshing and very welcome. And, you know, those very entrenched orthodox, super orthodox thinkers in the church, they don't make room for anything outside of that lane. And I think that's just, I think it's just sad. I think it's just quite tragic. And so just to expound on this a little bit more, someone like me, I'm sure you feel the same way. I would respect, I'm okay with church leaders making mistakes depending on what the mistakes are. If it's murder or child sex abuse, so that's unforgivable, right? But errors, human errors of omission or remission, the regular normal mistakes, et cetera. And I'm not talking about deliberate fraud, nothing like that, but I'm human and mistakes or it's all got this wrong and polygamy got wrong. Okay. You know, let's say it was a mistake. Oh, I think it was. If it was a mistake, let's say it. Blacks in the priesthood, you know, was that a mistake? I think it was a mistake. And if it was a mistake, let's say it, you know, uh, the thing that unraveled for me was the essay. The first essay was the race and the priesthood. And I read this and I thought, This is fantastic. I brought this up as a, while I was on the Sheikh Presidency, tried to talk about it in my stake and, and the ward, including one that was presiding at as a, you know, the Sheikh Presidency there, and was shut down very quickly. Uh, even people saying this is an anti-Muslim, uh, document written by someone, or it's a, an opinion, or it's a, some rogue researcher historian, or even the fatalist historian that's just an opinion. But actually it was endorsed by the First Presidency. And when I tried to talk about this and say, this is actually a fantastic document, we're now addressing the issue on race in the priesthood, and at the end we, we disavow it at the end, right? I was shut down by, uh, you know, some very, uh, senior people. And so for me, if the church was honest, completely honest and transparent about these things that Richard tries to, uh, I think does really well in that book. And say, hey, look, we made mistakes. We got these things right. We got these things wrong. We acknowledge that we're trying to make, we're trying to improve and learn from that. And we're human. We make mistakes and we're trying our best to get revelation from God and God, we're all that God has to work with because we're imperfect. I was like, I'm okay with that. I would have so much respect and confidence. By just them saying, look, we're human, we make mistakes, we're fallible, but hey, look what we've done. Look what we've achieved, all these great things and mission work and humanitarian work and this opportunity to serve in a way that probably few other organizations can provide. And we've got these things wrong, but hey, we're learning from that, we're listening from that. Why doesn't the church do that? Why does it try to—

Yeah.

We wouldn't ask questions.

Yeah, that's such a good, that's such a good framing. And I agree with all of that. Right. And I think part of the reason I agree with this idea, I just think we can handle it. You know, I think Latter-day Saints can handle the truth. I think the church can handle the truth. And, uh, you know, when, when, when we're not able for whatever reason to be open and transparent and accountable. It's an indication that our fear is getting the best of us, right? I don't have any inside knowledge on, you know, why the church has chosen to handle historical issues the way that they have. So I probably shouldn't speculate because I don't have any actual knowledge. But in general, when I see church members unable to engage in historical complexity and have open, confident conversations, it's usually because of fear, right? And, you know, I talk about— I have a whole, almost a third of a chapter in the book dedicated to fear and the role that fear plays in church culture. And I think that if we had a little bit more faith, you know, individually as members, but also collectively as a church, we could engage some of these difficult historical issues and we could, we could deal with them. You know, it's interesting to me because the sentiment that you expressed is very clear in our research. There are lots of people that feel like you do, and they said, look, people are human, mistakes are made, I'm okay with that. But if we can't speak openly about those mistakes and be accountable, then it turns into a trust issue and not a history issue, right? So I don't know, did you read Paul Reeves' book, Let's Talk About Race and the Priesthood?

Uh, not yet. No, I've heard about it.

So what's interesting is, I, I don't know Paul, but I, I read the book. The publisher was Deseret Book, and, uh, it's, it's a, it's probably the most candid, direct, uh, evaluation of the historical things that led up to the decision to not allow blacks to have priesthood or temple privileges. And I saw an interview that Paul did, and I wish I could tell you who it was, who it was with, but I can't remember. And, and he said that the Deseret Book approached him to write the book. He said he would write the book, but he said, I'm not going to pull any punches. And so he wrote the book the way he wanted it to, and they published it the way he wrote it. Now, that's, that's the church's flagship publishing company, right? My guess is if you read it, it's probably a much harsher critique of that era in the church's history than probably what you were doing when you got shut down back in the day. And so it's interesting how the climate for more candor is getting better. It's still not there, but it is getting better. We seem to be warming up to it, but we still have work to do.

My response to that, and I deliver this in complete respect to what you've said, but I'm gonna be, I'm a straight shooter. I'm just gonna speak plainly. In my opinion, that's not enough, Jeff. And the reason why I say that is one thing to allow a journalist, an author, publisher, et cetera, you know, researcher to write how they want, and I That's good. That's very good, right? And publish it and not influence it. Just let people write what they find.

Yeah.

I think that's great. It's quite another for a prophet or an apostle to stand up at conference at the pulpit, keeping in mind people haven't read that book. I've not read that book yet, right? Lots of people haven't read that book. And who's this guy? Well, he is a great research author for sure. Credible, no doubt. But he's not an apostle. You know what I'm talking about? It's quite another for a leader like Uchtdorf or Cook or whoever, Oaks, who interviewed me for my calling, to stand up and say, hey, we made a mistake, or words near there, or maybe don't say that, just say something. Look, we got some things wrong. I mean, Uchtdorf gave that classic talk in 2013 in October. Can join us. He said maybe some of these have made some mistakes. When I heard that, I thought he's talking about some rogue stake president or some rogue bishop. I didn't think for a second he was talking about, you know, he didn't mention Brigham Young or Joseph Smith or, you know, early leaders. He was referring to them. But why can't apostles at general conference, not in a book by this great author, you know, yeah, uh, with respect to them, etc., and Bush and you and others, etc., get up and take the initiative and be, be, you know, kind, humble, prophetic, bold, et cetera, and say, look, we, we got, these are the things that we got wrong and what happened and we're not making excuses. We got it wrong. That's very different, Jeff, than people getting it from a book, which they think is just, well, yes.

Well, I think that's well said. I can't, I can't, I don't have any insight on why they don't do that and why they don't handle issues that way. But I will speculate on what would happen if they did. Right. And I think there would be this positive shockwave that would run through the church of gratitude and energy and hope. There's, you know, it's I don't, I want to be careful about the words I throw around here, but we'll just speak to my own life. Every time I make a mistake and I own it, I immediately feel more optimistic and hopeful because I've taken charge of the situation. I've said, okay, it's on me. It was my mistake. I'm going to own it. I'm going to fix it. And immediately positive energy flows into my life and my capacity to go forward and do well. Is enhanced. And so as a person that has a lot of faith in the church and in Latter-day Saints as a community, I believe that is what the response would be. It would be very energizing. Now, there would be some members of the church who would probably be really troubled and shattered by that, you know, that approach. And so I don't know, maybe that's why they don't do it.

I don't know. I think you've nailed it. I think you're 100% right. I think it if we treat people with respect, by being honest and truthful for them and being upfront and not having it to be like Proverbs 32, where it talks about the Lord loves those who humble themselves. He still loves those people who are compelled to be humble, but they're compelled to be humble. And the internet and the truths and all these claims now that used to be described as anti-Mormon, like the Stone of the Hat, for example, that I read on my mission. Yeah, he had Joe Smith read from the Stone of the Hat, was told, you know, Elder Wilkes, that is an absolutely flat out lie and it was false, et cetera. Turns out, you know, past anti-Mormon stuff is now part of official church history. And so isn't this an opportunity, Geoff? Because I think you're absolutely right that the reaction would be as you described it. Absolutely. Uh, people would welcome it., and it'll be fantastic if the prophet stood up and actually did, did what we're talking about. But isn't this an opportunity for the church who are very intelligent people? You know, the prophet's very intelligent, all very smart people. Isn't now the time and the opportunity to have that conversation, to be able to present that information at General Conference? Because I think you're absolutely right. Most people would respond favorably. Respectfully and was thinking, my goodness, this is dealing with so many of the issues that I struggle with and kept quiet and not been able to talk about them. Now we can talk about it because the Prophet's talking about it. Why, what a wonderful conversation that would be, right? Why doesn't the church take this as an opportunity to do this? You talk about fear, but surely, you know, because they're very smart, surely they have come to the same conclusion you have. Be a net benefit overall. Yeah, there'd be some people that might struggle with it, but the advantage and the benefits generally would outweigh the problems.

Yeah, you know, Ian, it's a good question. I honestly don't know. I don't know anyone in the First Presidency. I know a couple of apostles, somewhat well. I know a handful of General 370s. The people that I know personally are good people. They're honest people. They're high-character people. They're certainly intelligent people. I don't know why. I mean, you know, whatever. I think I'm not trying to justify not doing it, but it must be more complicated than I can imagine. You know, that's my only thought. And so I just, I just don't know the answer to your question.

I think I have an answer and I don't mean to be arrogant or overconfident. Uh, and I might be wrong and I'm okay if I'm wrong. I think it goes back to what we said earlier about measuring reaction, uh, quantifying, qualifying, measuring reaction numerically using the numerical systems that you're not familiar with in these big corporate organizations. I think research has been done. I think they've simulated this research through some modeling, and we do this modeling all the time in engineering, et cetera. And I believe and think, and I'm making a big assumption here and I might be wrong, but I don't think I am, that they've run these simulations. What if, you know, that's risk management, right? You know, what if do this, what's the reaction? And probably on stuff that, so I think this is probably right, what's happening. What we don't know is the the findings from their simulated modeling, that the church might have come to the conclusion that the reaction is going to be much more difficult, much more complex than what you and I are thinking. Perhaps you and I are wrong. Yeah, saying it's going to be a small percentage that are going to react, but in actual fact, based on the research and all these questionnaires they put out, that there's going to be a bigger negative reaction like the COVID situation. So years ago, President Nelson came out as a medical professional, as a prophet, to council advisor members to follow medical advice around COVID. And as you know, there was a backlash from Jim Bennett. So people say he's speaking intelligently, professionally, prophetically, etc. But there are those people that saying, you know, he's trading on going into politics. He's talking about, you know, personal medical, which he shouldn't be talking about. He's speaking as man, not as a prophet. And there was a, there was a backlash. Yeah, you may— I'm sorry, maybe the numbers are, you know, look really bad for the church. Go ahead.

Well, you know, COVID's a really interesting one. I was serving, you know, we were serving our mission during COVID And man, I'll tell you, I've never seen the Latter-day Saint community more divided in my life than at that, you know, during that period of time. And so You know, if that's a good corollary, which is what you're suggesting, I can see why that might make somebody a little gun-shy. Yeah.

Yeah. I think so. This is fantastic conversation. I'm learning so much from myself. And could you speak to, you talked about the, you know, the church history, you know, the 4 prime reasons why people, you know, you talked a bit about, you know, lifestyle. Could you expound on the other two? You talk about church experience and the social, and then you also talk about that— for using your words correctly, if I remember correctly— that overlay of culture, that—

yeah, Wade, three social issues. 33% of respondents cited this as the primary reason. Again, this is not one where there's a lot of new insight, but the numbers are interesting. The most common factor was sexual identity, 33%, financial stewardship, 27%. So this was roughly at the same time that Ensign Peak and the SEC settlement was in the news. Um, racism, which is also a historical issue, 20%, gender equality, 13%. And it's interesting, I, Ian, I think that number maybe is a little understated. I don't know why, I can't tell you why, but when I sort of monitor the pulse of the LDS community, it feels like women having a more equal voice or a greater voice in the Church feels bigger than just 13% to me. But I can't tell you why it came out in our study this way. Interesting though, very few people in our study cited priesthood ordination as what we're talking about here. It was really more about women having a voice in the church. You know, and my personal take is women have incredible wisdom. They often have unique perspective. And when women do have a voice, whether it's in a home or in a community, you know, or in a church, they strengthen whatever group they're in. And so I think that's what people are poking at is that we, they feel like we could be a better church and a better church community if women had a greater voice. So that's Wave 3. Do you want to hop to Wave 4?

Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, Wave 4 is really interesting to me. It's church experience. And so I'm going to give you kind of a headline for this, and then we'll go into some of the detail. It's really two things. Either people don't feel like they have a sense of belonging in the church. They just feel like, wow, this is This doesn't feel like home to me. I feel different than these people that are in my ward. I just feel like an outlier. Or they just say, I'm not being spiritually nourished, right? And so one individual that I interviewed said, I'm looking for the living water and bread of life the Savior promised, and I can't find it here. Another man that I interviewed said, I fell in love with the Carpenter of Bethlehem on my mission, and he isn't here. You know, and so this is a conflict, I think, between the institutional side of the church, right? Organization, prophets, authority, keys, structure, policies, boundaries, and the pastoral side, the Good Samaritan, faith, repentance, redemption, charity, kindness, forgiveness. And, and, and that, that is out of balance for many people. So here's, here's what they said. 31% cited spiritual emptiness, 26% lack of belonging, 26% social exclusion, 14% cited judgmental culture, and then a small percent cited the marginalization of singles. You know, there's an interesting part in the book where— let me just give me just a moment, I'm going to find the chart because I I don't want to misquote it. Bear with me.

Oh, that's okay. You take your time. Just grateful to have you here.

This is one I don't cite very often, so I'm— I'll keep looking at it while we talk, looking for it while we talk. Well, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to I'm going to just paraphrase it so I don't bog us down too much. But one of the things we did in the survey is we said, well, we want you to— we're going to give you different situations. And we want you to tell us for each of these situations how at home or how comfortable or how welcome you feel this person would be. Right? And so it was a 5-point scale. So 5 would be, I feel amazingly welcome. You know, this is my tribe, these are my people, I love being here. And then one would be, man, I'm totally out. Like, I feel like such an outlier, I feel so marginalized. So for example, when your son or daughter goes on a mission, that's like above 4. When you see your children sealed in the temple, that's above 4, right? And then you start to drop when you get to things like, well, what about a divorced person? Oh, that's like 2.5 or 3. What about somebody that didn't serve a full-time mission? Oh, that's probably a 2.

Okay.

What about somebody who's economically poor? Well, that might be a 2. And then what about somebody who has an LGBTQ child or who is LGBTQ themselves? Oh, now you're talking, you know, 2 or below, right? And so this, this is a good, piece of data that just helps us understand why people might not feel a sense of belonging in the church. Because by the way, my family kind of fits the profile, right? We're a traditional family. I have 5 children. You know, 4 of my 5 kids graduated from BYU. I'm a white shirt and tie guy. And so I fit the profile, but boy, that narrow profile, there's so many people and families that don't fit it these days. You know, lots of people are not married. In fact, a majority of women in the church are single, right? Either through the passing of their spouse or not getting married, or even maybe a divorce. I've talked to many. We put so much emphasis on the nuclear family, which by the way, I think that's a good thing. And on youth. I talk to a lot of singles in their 20s and 30s and they say, man, I just feel invisible. Right? Because I don't fit anywhere here. And so that's part of what we're talking is just belonging. But the other part is the spiritual nourishment part. And so if your connection to divine things is more human and pastoral, and the ward or branch that you're in is more institutional, you're gonna struggle. You're gonna really struggle. Now, there are many wards and branches around the world where you get a branch president or a bishop or a great Relief Society president that's really passionately focused on the Savior and the gospel, and they can transform the culture in a ward just like that, right? But the opposite's also true. If you get a leader or leaders that are very focused on the institutional side, then there are going to be people in that congregation that are feeling hungry for spiritual nourishment. So anyway, that's— those are the four waves. Can I, can I tie the culture piece in?

Yes, please do. So I—

so, Ian, I've been criticized a little bit. It's— well, you know, it's— the criticism hasn't been too bad, but I've— I'm criticized by a couple of different groups. So, and I, and I, I hear the criticism. I, I'm, I've people should know, I listen, I'm hearing it. One group are people who are in the post-Mormon community who are really mad at the church, and they feel like my framing is protecting church leaders from criticism, right? And so they're mad about that because they want, you know, more criticism towards church leaders and more accountability, right? And I understand that. Um, the other group, of course, is really Orthodox members feel like I'm steadying the ark and they, they don't know why I'm doing this, you know, and the answer to both groups is I'm just trying to help, right? I'm, you know, we, we need to have a conversation about disaffiliation and about our relationships with people in the post-Mormon community because we aren't talking about it. It's not healthy and we can do so much better. Right? And so marriages end, friendship. I mean, you said earlier you had friendships end over this. I know I've interviewed people who are on the verge of divorce because you have a believing spouse and an unbelieving spouse. In fact, I talked to a young man last Thursday about this very issue. They're actually working through it pretty well. They're doing a good job, but it's pressure-packed in their relationship. And so people are saying, Jeff, why didn't you go harder at the church? Or why didn't you criticize history and doctrine more. And Ian, the simple reason is the history is what it is. We can't change it, right? What we can change is the culture, which is how we talk about it, how open we are. Do we create space for people who are troubled by this to stay in the church and have honest conversations about it without being marginalized? And so I was with Allison Dayton last week shooting a podcast, and Her co-host, who's from California and enjoys the beach, she said, you know what, Jeff, the four waves are hitting the beach and culture is like the undertow that pulls people out to sea. And I think that's right. Culture makes these waves either worse or it can provide some relief. And so that's why I chose to focus on culture, right? We can't change our history, but we can change how we talk about it. And we can change how we think about it. We can change how we deal with it. And so, culture's the undertow on the beach, the riptide. Now, here's what else culture is. Culture is also the people that pull you out of the surf and save your life, right? It goes both ways. And so, what I'm hoping this book can do is start a conversation in the LDS community, both current and former, where maybe the culture can be more healthy so there are more people being pulled onto the beach instead of pulled onto the water in the riptide.

Your, how you articulate your thoughts and feelings, your vision, your compassion, your understanding, your insight is, uh, it's, it's extraordinary. It really is. And it's difficult for me not to get emotional because if I, if I'd have had more people like you in my life, if we'd been friends and we knew each other and you were in my ward and we had that friendship, I would have had somebody I could go to that would listen, that would care, that would love, that would understand, might not agree with everything that I'm saying, or, but at least would be compassionate. These things that I hoped, expected to have rather, disappeared very, very quickly. Your mindset, your thinking, your balanced perspective describes the model and the philosophy of Inside Out. You know, Jim's active, I'm not. We want the child to get better. We want to help people through love and kindness, understanding, and a good, bold conversation, have that honesty, et cetera, that integrity. And that's so important. And you've done such an extraordinary job with this conversation and your book to try to achieve that. And I think you've got to be— I suspect you're helping most people in the church and outside the church. The majority are benefiting from these conversations and from your book. You're going to have those people that are really hurt and angry. And Jeff, I know what that feels like. Yeah. You know, I'm very angry with the church and very hurt and injured and betrayed and let down by the church. Believe me, I felt very strong feelings and still do from time to time. But on the other side, I cannot forget ever or denounce or deny the blessing of the church in my life. He saved my life. You know, where I thrown out, I was homeless for 3 nights on a park bench. The church took me in the me in and I had a home, I had a roof over my head, I had shelter. The church put its arms around me and saved my life literally. And I cannot and will not forget that. The Book of Mormon, which I don't believe is an historical text, and we won't get into that so much necessarily, details, but I believe it or not, I find most of it inspiring. Even now, it's like an Aesop's fable. I don't believe or think it's historically accurate. Yeah. Nonetheless, I find the book inspiring. You know, Alma 42, justice and mercy, 35:17. I could spend all day talking about Alma 5, which is just so poetic for me, just inspiration. And so your balanced perspective and your endeavors to try to help as many people as you can. You're not going to be able to help everybody and you're going to have critics. You're going to get that, right? And that just goes with the gig, so to speak, right? But your motivation of love and kindness and ability to address, I think, you know, reframing the question and putting it like, you know, what can the church learn about from people like, you know, from people like me and people who are leaving. And what can it do to change the culture? You're right, it can't change the, can't change the history. But there are wonderful things in the history. History is what makes us human, right? Yeah. And if we can address it in a very honest and very constructive way, it shows integrity. Integrity is what people like me and you and many other people who are seeking truth and seeking to belong to an organization that they can trust. In a world so divided and so corrupt, we want an organization that's honest and truthful and that we can trust its leaders and speak honestly to us because where else can you find it, right? And so the church has this sacred spiritual obligation to, I think, to set right some of these issues. And I think the time to do that is now. I can't think of a better time. Look what's going on in the world, Jeff, right? That the opportunity and the time to be in the public square, uh, like the Pope is doing to some extent, to talk about global issues, talk about integrity and honesty and decency and public life and governance and, you know, the role of the church in, in the world, being claiming the only, it's the only true church upon the face of the earth and claiming to be an international church of, of relevance. Now is the time in the world that we're involved, in, involved in right now where we need to stand up and speak up and, with the resources that the church has got and the intelligence and the extraordinary humanitarian history that the church has got, surely now is the time for President Oaks to stand up and to address these issues with the members, to have this kind of conversation at the general conference. And to, you said, you know, a leader sets the tone and direction for his ward and for his, I think the constraining elements of that is the doctrine. You can have a great bishop, but if you're outside of that profile, you know, if you're LGBTQ, you're divorced, you're single, and you're outside of that married couple, white married couple, faithful kids, going on missions, full-tied hair, white shirt, white tie, temple recommend holder, card holder, et cetera. As soon as you start stepping out of those, those, that inner celestial kingdom profile, then you start to think, well, I'm not in the profile. I'm not going to get in the celestial kingdom. And so there's a correlation between the doctrine and what a leader can say and can do, because there's only so much that a leader can do. But surely the prophet, through leadership, dealing with global issues, but dealing with internal issues, can address this and say to people outside of that, strict profile, that you are enough.

Yeah.

And get back to God by being outside of this profile.

Yeah.

Is that the right approach? Isn't the time to do that now?

Boy, you've said so many important things. If I could, I want to backtrack and just touch on a couple of things you said. The first thing I want to touch on is your statement about— well, first of all, thank you for your kindness and your encouragement. Ian, I appreciate it, particularly since you're not a member of the church anymore. I appreciate that you see the valid, you know, the value in what I'm trying to do here. So I mean that. Thank you. You know, I, uh, Joseph Grenny and I, I don't know if you know who Joseph is, but Joseph helped me do some of the research for the book. And we did a couple of podcasts on this together. One on Faith Matters, one on Leading Saints. But Joseph is a— I won't give his full biography here, but he's just a remarkable man. And he wrote a bestselling book many years ago called Crucial Conversations, which is how do you have high-stakes conversations and give yourself a chance to have them go better? So we did some research to understand what happens when somebody starts a faith transition like you did many years ago. And so, here's what our research taught us. About 4 out of 5 people will talk to somebody, right? They're feeling incredible angst and worry and tension, conflict, and they need help. They need to talk to someone. They need to share it. They need to discuss it. And so, 4 out of 5 people will talk to somebody. Interestingly, Ian, In our survey, 6 out of 10 times it goes pretty well. So they're met with some degree of support and connection, but 4 out of 5 times it goes badly. And then this is what determines whether it goes well or not well. If the conversation with the person in fanfay transition is about correcting them, or if you can't correct them, then containing them. Then it's going to go badly. If it's more about understanding them, listening to them, and maintaining the relationship and trust, it's going to go well. Now, here's what was surprising to me in the research. The way the conversation goes, statistically, in our little study, had a greater determinant on whether the person stayed in the church community than what they actually believe. Okay, so let that sink in for a minute. And maybe you're an example. If somebody had engaged you with understanding, empathy, trust, and they had said, "Ian, these are good questions. I've had these same questions myself. Your honesty is a virtue here. Your courage is a virtue here. You can wrestle with these in our ward and be valued and loved and respected." maybe you would've stayed and wrestled on the inside instead of leaving to wrestle on the outside. That's what our data suggests happens. The other thing that's interesting is the conversations go more poorly with devout parents and church leaders because they have a tendency to correct and contain more than, say, a friend or a spouse. And so what is a bad conversation? A bad conversation is one where the concerns are amplified, the relationship suffers, and the person is more likely to step away. Okay. And the difference is really just empathy and connection. So, what I've learned is you don't have to solve problems for people. You know, life is a personal journey. We all need to take it ourselves individually. But man, if you can be present with somebody and see them for what they really are and not reduce them to a caricature, and define their entire existence and life down to a simple belief that they no longer have, they're probably going to stay connected to you. You know, and by the way, I have, I, there's somebody in my life that I love very, very much. Um, my nephew. So I, uh, my nephew Shane, I'm, you know, I'm 62 now and I think Shane is probably 52. So he's a grown man and he's a very successful lawyer in Utah. But, but he had a, he had a very rocky childhood. And, um, and then after some very rough teenage years and some big mistakes, he, he started to become active in the church really for the first time in his life. And I won't give you all the gory details, but he had a, he had a very, very negative experience with a church leader and then it became a pattern. And so I actually interviewed him for the book because he's no longer a member of the Church. And here's what he said to me. He said, "Jeff, every single positive role model in my life is a faithful Latter-day Saint." You know, he grew up in Utah County, and he said, "I have so many positive feelings for the Church and for the values and the character that it produces in good Latter-day Saints." And he said, "There were many times in my life when I was in my 20s and 30s and 40s where I felt like, 'Wow, I really could use it. It would really help me.'" But he couldn't come back because there was so much scar tissue from the experiences that he had. And he's another example. If anybody would have just put their arm around him and said, "Hey, we know you had some rough teenage years. We know you made some mistakes." none of that matters. Just be with us. Take your journey however you need to, to take it. You've got friends here. He'd probably be a member of the church right now.

You are describing, uh, really well some of my own experience. Had the leaders taken the approach that you are suggesting, I not only would've been helped personally,, and my family, but I would be a significant, well, maybe that's an oversell, but I would be a benefit to the church.

Yeah, for sure you would.

Be an advocate for the church because I say, look, I've gone through these same questions and same doubts and yes, and I had this faith crisis. The leaders kind of like they did when I was 16 years old, put their arms around me. And they rescued me. They listened, they were interested, they cared for me. My relationship wasn't conditional on whether I should be active or whether I should be asking these difficult questions or not. I would have been an advocate. I would have helped. They could have used me to help others. And instead it was completely opposite. Do you know what was interesting, Geoff? You know, when you get the stake presidency or a bishopric or something in the stake, you get these, it's quite common, this might have been your experience, where every changeover and President Oaks reorganized, restructured our stake. Every new stake presidency comes up with a theme, a particular theme or focus. And I was part of the revelation that created, can't take credit for it because it comes from the scriptures, comes from the Spirit, Finding the One.

Yeah, yeah.

Finding the One. And I was part of that in that stake presidency. And we launched within a couple of weeks, the initiative, Finding the One, and the scriptures and what that meant. And Jeff, I was part of that. I am a Níbhl, with us two Kenneths, right? Um, and so, you know, we were inspired and we went to the members and the members just thought this was great, right? This is, this is exactly what we should be doing. And we put all this material together, Finding the One. But what's interesting, when I was lost, yeah, when I was desperate, when I was alone, when I was out there in the wilderness, the cold, freezing, uh, storm, alone, in the dark, you know, stumbling, completely alone, the finding the one that I helped put together did not extend to me.

Yeah.

And I helped put that together. I helped lead that. And the 99 and the one, the one that was me was going. Not, it had not worked. Not good enough to go out and find and not, and, you know, no one came after me to look for me. No one.

Yeah. You know, Ian, it's, first of all, I'm so sorry that that was your experience. And it deeply pains me to hear you and others share those kinds of stories. By the way, I love the Latter-day Saint painter, the Argentinian Jorge Coco Sant'Angelo. And I have his painting of the lost sheep on my wall. And it's such a staggeringly beautiful, powerful painting. And I think part of what we do in the church is we think, well, finding the one means, you know, going out and capturing the renegade and dragging them back to the corral. You know, get them back in the pen. And I don't think that's the spirit. Spirit of the parable, right? The spirit of the parable is not allowing somebody to be unseen, not allowing them to go on, you know, to do what you did, to go off on your own and be isolated and feel alone. You asked another really good question, or you expressed a hope that the church leaders would have some kind of significant step here and do something meaningful. I, I've been wrestling with that concept myself. Right. Okay. So it's been interesting how the conversation on the book is evolving right now. So initially it was, well, is the data valid? Can we learn from the data? Yes. You know, by the way, it's not a nationally representative study, but it's still reliable and useful for learning. And that's the purpose. And then it's, Okay, what's Jeff really saying about culture? But people are pretty quickly embracing those things, and now they're saying, well, what do we do? Okay, we got it. It's a big issue. What do we do? And Ian, here's a construct that you'll be hearing me talk about. So when you think about the reasons people cite for leaving, the two biggest ones by far are church history and social issues. And I love the parable of the wine bottles in the New Testament. So you might, you might remember that the Pharisees were criticizing Christ and his disciples because they weren't fasting when they were supposed to be.

Okay.

And so he kind of pushed back and he said, hey, the law of the fast is important, but what I'm here to do is more transformative than that. And then he said, you can't take new wine and put it in old bottles. Or the bottles will burst and the bottle and the wine will be lost. You have to have new wine and put it in a new bottle so both are preserved. And then Ian, he zings them a little bit. He says, "Yeah, and everybody always prefers the old wine," right? And so here's what I think is happening with great people like you and hundreds of thousands of others. Church history and social issues have put a huge dose of new wine into their lives, And what we're doing is we're telling them, stick it in the old bottle. And guess what? They're trying. They try for years and years and years, and they can't, and it doesn't work, and they get frustrated. And so at some point they disengage because they just can't do it. And what's interesting to me is that the more that we say, hey, that old bottle is perfect, and if you can't get your new wine, Ian, in that old bottle, you must be the problem, you must be doing it wrong. Then it moves from a church history issue or a disagreement over a social issue to a trust issue. And that trust issue is to me more damaging and problematic. So I can't tell the church what they should do. It's not my place. I can't predict what they'll do. But can I tell you what I pray for? Yeah. Yeah, I pray that they will help members find a new bottle to hold this new wine. Now, as a member of the church that knows, like you do, how much the church can help people— now, I know some people have to leave because the church is not helpful to them. I respect that. But my hope is that we could create a church community that could be helpful for far more people. And where somebody like you who has a major new batch of wine that you can't stuff in the old bottle, that the church might be able to not only help you come up with a faithful new bottle, but give you permission to say it's okay. So instead of telling you, "Hey, Ian, it's naughty. It's naughty for you to think about a new bottle." Instead say, "You know what? It's good for you to think about a new bottle. It's necessary for you to think about a new bottle." We want you to develop a new bottle, and if you can do that, maybe you can stay without the conflict that ultimately led you out of the church. So that's my prayer is that our wonderful church, warts and all, will embrace the challenge of helping members develop a new bottle to hold this new wine that they're dealing with.

Jeff, that's— Absolutely wonderful. I love it. Where were you 10 years ago in Madurai? I, I, I, as soon as we started talking and chatting before we pressed record, I just knew and hoped and felt that we would be having this conversation. And I'm so grateful. I know we have listeners and viewers here, but me personally, it's so refreshing. I'm so grateful. That painting picture, by the way, Um, I don't feel I'm part of that picture anymore. I think I've been cut out of the picture and that breaks my heart and it's difficult not to be emotional. I want to be in the picture. Yeah, I want to feel loved and accepted and, and, and, and, you know, to be, um, good enough to be rescued. For goodness sake.

Yes. Well, hey, look, I can only speak for Jeff Strong, but you are in that picture and you are good enough. And any culture that sees you otherwise is a culture that needs to change.

Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. And as I think about that, and my prayer is your prayer, my hope is your hope. I just wonder, how would I get back? I mean, How, what does that look like? Do I have to repent of things that I just don't think I've done wrong? I mean, I drink coffee. That's what I do. I drink coffee. I, there's a confession right now in front of President Strong. This, maybe this is the first interview to get back. And so, uh, and I will read your book. I just will absolutely read your book, but how do you get back? I mean, you're talking about church learning from people like me. How do you get back? Do I have to repent? Do I have to go to church disciplinary council? Do I have to pay back all the tithing? If I get back, I'm going to get rebaptized. Will they be checking on me all the time? Will I not get certain callings because, hey, you know, he was an anti-Mormon or whatever, et cetera, et cetera? That road back, I mean, how does that work. And, and, and that's probably a different conversation, maybe for a different time. Um, we, uh, coming to the end here, Jeff, of, of our time here. Um, I would like to, uh, move into our concluding comments if, if you're okay with that.

Yeah, that sounds great.

You, you—

by the way, Ian, I got to say one thing. I— you said, where, where were I 10 years ago? I was, I was lost and confused.

Oh, wow.

Right. Yeah. I was 3 years into my son's journey.

Right.

I was feeling a lot of fear and despair and I was, and I was trying to figure it out.

Right. So you, you, as you listen to me and I'm, I think I'm quite common. I think what I've experienced is, is, is, uh, across your entire survey, right? You know, you've, you've talked about the 4 primaries and you've talked about the culture. I connect with all of them, many of them, maybe not all of them, but many of them for sure. You know, I kind of, I've, you know, experiences in each of those different reasons. It's not one reason I think why people leave, probably, probably a whole bunch of reasons. But it comes down for me, if, if, if, if I had been shown love and if those friendships were supposed to be real, then if they were what I thought they were, then, then, um, I might still be in the church. Who knows yet?

You know, Ian, there's a reason the book is called Torn. I think that word captures the absolute essence of what you're feeling, what I feel. By the way, you're out and I'm in and I'm torn.

Yes. And you know, and just on that, I had shared this before on Inside Out. I was driving in a deep, dark winter evening from Calgary to Vancouver through the Rocky Mountains. Was many years ago, you know, listening to a podcast. And then it hit me that there were certain things that just weren't true. And I pulled over. It was deep snow, as in the four-wheel drive. You shouldn't pull over in during a winter storm in the Rocky Mountains. Just keep going. But I pulled over because I was overcome with emotion and I broke down and wept. And I, I, I cried at the side of the road there. Alone, um, and realized there was just certain things that just wasn't true and actually worse, it just wasn't right. And, um, it was just the beginning of a very, um, dark night of the soul. I think I would describe it like that. And I, I walked that path, uh, alone mostly without my family who wasn't even there at the very beginning because I, didn't feel I could bring it to them. I mean, I was— what was I going to do in my marriage and my family, my kids, right, who were, you know, active at the time? I'm supposed to be the example here. I'm supposed to have it all together. I'm supposed to be faithful and have no doubts and, you know, to be completely obedient and committed, yet it was all unraveling. So I just— I'm so grateful to you on a personal level, and I'm so grateful that you've taken time to come on to Inside Out, the Che perspective. As we close and bring this to a close, do you have any final thoughts? I have one question, sorry, come to mind. I must ask this before we break. What has been the— you can just probably answer this briefly, best as you can, or take whatever time you need. What's been the reaction from the church leaders in regards to your research and your survey?

No, I haven't, I haven't not aware of any reaction. They haven't reached out to me. I, you know, I, I know, I know, uh, with, without, I'm going to avoid specifics, but I know several of them, there are several general church leaders that either have read the book or are reading it. I'm grateful for that, Ian. I, but I haven't had any reaction. I didn't have one general women's leader reach out to me and sent me a very nice email. Uh, and she so much appreciated that book and wanted to communicate that with me. And I was really grateful for that. I appreciated her taking the time and being so thoughtful as to do that.

And so thank you, Jeff. As we conclude, two questions to help you with the conclusion perhaps is, uh, with your, your book, uh, Torn, which is for me and sure many others is appropriately titled because I, I was torn in pieces emotionally, spiritually. In shreds. So the title means so much to me. What message or counsel or advice, if any, could you give to those who are like me, who are struggling, who have questions, who need help and need love and support? And what advice or suggestions, ideas would you give to church leaders in respect to helping someone like me go through this experience?

Yeah, I, oh man, that's, that's a heavy question, Ian. I, those are big questions and I, I, uh, I feel, um, I feel a bit intimidated and humbled by those questions. Um, you know, uh, I, I, let me speak to people who have a lot of new wine and they can't get it in the old bottle, right? You're not crazy. You're not alone. Um, there are many people that feel like you do. And inasmuch as you can find support by connecting with those people so that at a minimum you can talk and vent and you can share experiences, I think is a good thing. Um, I, my, my, my, my greatest hope, and it's a, it's a humble one because I don't, I don't, I know how far, I know how difficult it is to move an aircraft carrier, right? And my hope is that a new conversation can start in our church community that will make it easier, Ian, for people like you to talk about these issues in a way that's healthy and constructive, maybe to mend some relationships that were fractured because of these issues. And so that's my hope is that, that, that you would, that you would be able to navigate that and, and be less torn and, and have better relationships. You know, in terms of the church and church leaders, I, I'll just repeat what I said, and I, I pray that they'll, I pray that they'll embrace the challenge of helping people come up with a new bottle. I, I, I got a, I got an email just last week. Can I take a second and just share a, a highlight of it?

Do it. Go for it.

Okay. So, um, I, and I asked this wonderful man if I could have his permission to share excerpts from this, and he said yes. So this is a man that lives in the Pioneer Corridor. Um, his name could be Ian, right? You know, a, a, a, a high character, intelligent, dynamic leader who, uh, went through a fairly significant faith transition related to church history going back or 7 years ago. He made a decision to try to carve out space in his ward to be more honest and nuanced in his beliefs. Now, his hope was, look, I can't, I can't sit there and pretend that I don't know what I know and I don't believe what I believe. So I've got to find a way diplomatically, respectfully, to be authentic at church. And so he attempted to do that. And it didn't go well. And so his ward members immediately reacted in a negative way. His bishop actually released him from his calling. And he was devastated, right? And then a number of years passed and wonderful things happened. There was a new bishop called. By the way, a new elders quorum president was called. And they asked if they could come and visit with him, and they didn't come to recruit him back to the church. They just came to connect with him as a human being, and a conversation started. And then eventually the elders quorum president said, "Could I bring Stake President so-and-so over? He'd like to talk to you." And so, Ian, there was no correcting, there was no containing. It was just human beings talking with each other. Trying to understand each other's perspective. And this man outlined in his letter to me how honest he was, and it was difficult and painful, and initially his stake president was struggling with it. But this good stake president hung in there and stayed in the fight. And then it came to a head a little bit because this man had an 8-year-old son. I'm not sure if it was a son or a daughter, but an 8-year-old child that he wanted to baptize, and then an Aaronic Priesthood son he wanted to ordain, and he didn't think his bishop and stake president would allow it. And so we had a long conversation with the stake president, and again, very transparent, very open, very authentic. And at the end of the conversation, the stake president said, "You can do this," and he let him. Okay, and then more time passed. And he gets a call from the stake president saying, "I want you to come in and visit with me again." And this is after he's been open and honest about all of his issues with Church history, all of his concerns about the Church, and he was— he said, "I was really worried." He said, "Bring your wife." He said, "I was so worried when I went to that interview that maybe I was in trouble." And the stake president sat him down and said, I feel inspired to call you to the High Council. So he put him on the High Council, you know, notwithstanding the issues. And this man sent me the talk that he gave, his first High Council talk. I'm going to send it to you. It's astonishing. And what this is how change can happen, right? It started with an elders quorum president and a bishop that refused to allow this man to be lost. And then a stake president that was willing to stay in the fight long enough until he figured it out. And now this is a man that wanted to stay in the Church. Some people want to leave, and so I'm not suggesting that the only success story here is one who stays. Maybe somebody who leaves, that's a success too, because that's what they need to do. But this man is serving as a high council representative in his stake, and he's been given permission by his stake president to bring his full self to the table in that leadership role. And I don't know why the stake president did it, but I have a hunch that the stake president knows there are many people in that stake that are in the same place and they need somebody to look to for hope and direction. And so I just, that's what I think a great church leader has the capacity to do if they have eyes to see, if they can see people and if their love is stronger than their fear, then this is the kind of thing they're going to do.

To our viewers and listeners, uh, you have been listening to one of the most extraordinary human beings on the planet, Jeff Tronc, the author of Torn: Why People We Love, uh, Leave the Church and What We Can Learn from Them. Jeff, you are a wonderful human being. I felt your spirit and your emotion and your love and your honesty and your integrity. I'm so grateful, so honored to have met you, albeit by video. And it's such a privilege and honor to have you on Inside Out. For those listening, if you haven't yet read the book, go read the book Torn. I'm going to go get it just based on this. It's going to help me enormously. And I still need help with these things. So, Jeff, thank you for helping me personally. And I know without doubt that others have have been helped by this conversation of all weeks, but I love to you and gratitude to you, a just wonderful, wonderful individual, and you carry a wonderful spirit. Jeff Strong, author of Torn, thank you for being on Inside Out.

Well, Ian, you are so kind, and I really appreciate those kind words and the encouragement. Thank you for the privilege of having a chance to visit with you. It was a special experience for me.

Thank you.