A Conversation with Karen Hyatt

Hello and welcome to Inside Out, the program in which we talk to extraordinary people about the Mormon Church and faith. My name is Ian Wilkes, and I'm joined by easily one of the world's greatest choir singers. In fact, he's so good that the Leaning Tower of Pisa, Pisa, sits up straight. Welcome, Jim Bennett.

Why does the Leaning Tower of Pisa sit up straight exactly?

She's such an awesome singer. It just sits up to listen and says, Jim is singing. I need to show some respect.

Well, all right.

Today we have a very special guest, Karen Hyatt. Karen, welcome to Inside Out.

Thank you so much for having me here, you guys.

It's a real honor and pleasure to have you with us. Uh, now, uh, Jim, Karen, you share a relationship, uh, a friendship.

Okay.

The one that you bought now. Uh, is that Michelle Brady Stone?

Ah, yes.

Yes.

We're both friends with Michelle.

Yes.

Right. And you've, you've worked with Michelle, uh, producing, editing her videos. Is that, is that right?

Yep, about half of them. Yep, the second half of them. Yes.

Right. We've had Michelle on our podcast before and she's just an extraordinary individual. Karen, would you give us a little bit about your background? Tell us about yourself, your experience with the church growing up, perhaps your youth. Did you serve a mission? Give us a little bit of your background story, if you will.

Sure. Let's see if we go way back. I was blessed in the church. My parents had joined thinking to raise their children in a church. So that was that. And then after a couple of years, though, they had some questions that weren't answered. I don't even know what the questions were, but they were just told like, you have to have faith. And my mom didn't, didn't go for that. So they left the church, not in a huff or anything, but just, they just didn't go. And then when I was about 15, they, my mom found her way back to the church and I just thought religion was a scam. I was like, why would I pay somebody to read the Bible to me when I could read it? Didn't make any sense to me. So I wasn't interested. Um, but a couple of years after that, a couple of missionaries came to my door and one of them was of exceedingly fine workmanship. And so they, Wanted to come back and I was like, absolutely. And wouldn't you know it, when they came back, uh, fine workmanship had been transferred. So I guess his job was done, but the missionaries started coming and talking to me. But the thing is they, they, you know, sometimes I would be there and sometimes they wouldn't, sometimes I wouldn't because I just thought they were friends of my parents. You know, they were in my parents' church. So I didn't even understand why they were there. It wasn't clear. So I met with them for months and, you know, finally figured out, oh, they're here specifically to talk to me. So, um, you know, they would tell me things and they would say, well, you know, tell me the Joseph Smith story. And they would say, do you believe that? I would say, well, I guess. I mean, I don't think you came all the way here to lie to me. Very kind of an immature, um, faith that I had, if you, I guess to call it. I just wasn't very thoughtful. And mind you, I hadn't been looking for them. I'm not looking for a church, right? So I went through, I don't know how many sets of missionaries over how many months, but at some point I just felt like God was not happy when I said no to being baptized all the time. Because here was my thought process. I don't want to get my hair wet in front of people. That, that's the level of maturity. Okay. So, so finally I thought, I think he wants me to do this. So I agreed to be baptized and it was about a year before I realized what a what a treasure I had, what a gem I had, and appreciated the prophetic role of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. And it was amazing. I was, I was converted. And then when President Benson, you know, counseled everyone to read the Book of Mormon every day and listed all these promises that would be in there, you know, you wouldn't be deceived and just all these things. I felt the truth of that. So I've just always read the Book of Mormon every day. I'm all, I was all in. I am all in. So that's, that's that. And then, um, went off to Ricks College and then got my patriarchal blessing, which said, you know, if you desire it, Heavenly Father will bless you with the calling to be a missionary. And I was like, are you kidding? No way. I came home and I dejectedly told my mom I had to go on a mission. And she said, well, you don't have to. And I said, oh, okay. I'll just tell God thanks, but no thanks. You know, that wasn't, that wasn't on the table. So I went on my mission to Montreal, Canada, and it was awesome. And so I've, I've always been grateful for that. It was fantastic. Got home. Um, was very reluctant to get married. Hadn't been raised in the church, so I didn't have that marriage thing, you know, as one of my goals, but then here came this guy and and it just, Heavenly Father just told me that, that that's the one I should marry and I couldn't argue and wow, what a blessing that's been. Just Heavenly Father has really taken care of me in my foolishness and ignorance the whole time. So, uh, my husband William has been just a tremendous blessing. We're just on the same page and he's so smart and I love him so much.

So, Carol, thanks for sharing that. Story, background story. Where were you when you were investigating the church? You were about 15, 16, 17 years old. Whereabouts was that?

California.

In California.

In Fremont. It's just, uh, it's in the East Bay. It's, uh, between San Jose and Oakland.

Right, right. And then, and when the missionaries were teaching you and you got to the Joseph Smith story, uh, the, uh, what version of the First Vision did you hear? Were you taught?

What version?

Yeah.

Interesting. Um, well, that he had questions. I mean, the standard version from the missionary discussions, you know, that he, um, was wondering which church to join because there had been a revival in his area. And as he read James 1:5, then he, that said, if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. And he felt like that was exactly his situation. So he retired to a grove of trees and, and asked God, uh, which of all churches to join and was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ. So it, that's probably what you're referring to. So it, that's, that was the version of that. And that he, um, you know, and then he sort of passed out after talking with them and awoke and went and told his dad about it. Let's see, that's, I'm mixing that up, aren't I? He went back home and told his mother that he had found out for himself that, what was it, Methodism or something wasn't true, or Presbyterianism, whichever. And so, uh, anyway, that's, that's the one.

Yeah.

And yeah, that's interesting because when the missionaries told that to me, you know, I don't remember. I don't remember, like I said, I was so immature. I don't remember what I felt at the time. I just thought, well, You know, and they would ask me, do you believe that? And I thought, well, I don't think you're making it up. That was the level. But I do remember that when I was on my mission, every time we would talk about that, the spirit would fill the room.

Right, right. The reason why I ask you this is for general reasons also, but I was investigating the church at the age of 16, had, a very similar experience. I had a very profound experience when I heard the Joseph Smith story from the two Mishris and the room filled with something. I definitely felt the spirit. Are you comfortable sharing how you felt when you, uh, heard about the Joseph Smith story, the vision? Was there certain aspects that kind of stood out to you or was the whole experience just completely, uh, like for me, overwhelming and just a general broad spiritual confirmation. What was that feeling like when you heard the story about Joseph Smith?

So when I first heard it from the missionaries, I don't think I was mature enough or even engaged enough to, to understand what they were even, the impact of what they were saying, you know, the full weight of how cool this would be. But later, later, yeah, I, it filled my heart. I mean, it was just the thought that, that God would reveal himself to someone and, and that he could do that for all of us really. But the, like I said, on my mission, that was when I most felt that every single time it was unmistakable when we would teach that the spirit just filled the room. Uh, without exception, without exception. And I can't say that about every discussion that we had, but whenever we would teach about Joseph Smith's experience, all of us felt it. And you knew that the people you were talking to felt it. And so that, that absolutely filled my heart and just, um, made me grateful and all those feelings that were positive and, you know, it made you grateful and it made you humble and it made you. Appreciative and overwhelmed with gladness and joy.

Right.

And can I ask, uh, and I want to bring Jim Bennett in here, get his perspective on this, but what do you attribute those feelings to, would you say, at the time and now as you look back?

I think that those are the fruits of the spirit, you know, now that I've learned, because I didn't know Joseph Smith's words, what he had talked about. When you feel the Spirit, it's not just, you don't just feel the Spirit because you're hearing good news. You know, you can feel the Spirit testify of truth that's really horrible truth, in fact. Um, so I attribute it to the Spirit of God and the fruits that Alma talks about when you plant a seed and they're joyful and enlightening. I think you have to have them both. Right. Not joyful, meaning, oh, that's good news, but the joy of being enlightened, the joy of having truth made known to you. I think that's where the joy comes in.

Right. Jim, was that your experience when you heard about the Joseph Smith story, the vision, the First Vision? What was your—

Oh gosh. Well, I mean, I think I'm the only one in this discussion that was raised in the church. And so I can't even remember what moment in my life I first heard the Joseph Smith story. It never even occurred to me to question it at all through most of my growing up years. I mean, as an adult, and I think before going on a mission even, I really sort of started to— I mean, I had my big faith crisis, the Godmakers inspired faith crisis that I've talked about on this podcast a number of times. That was when I was 18. Uh, but one of the things that got me through that was that when I was reading The Godmakers and I was finding out all of these things about the church, and that book was trying very hard to create sort of a sinister version of the relatively boring church in which I'd grown up. I could continually go back to, well, no, this is not a sinister church. No, there is something here that is from God. And again, it's not necessarily a rational sort of analysis, although I don't think that rationality needs to be set aside in order to have spiritual experiences. But that spiritual grounding that came from a lifetime in the church, I return to that again and again, even now. Whenever I get frustrated with the church, whenever the church does something that I don't like, whenever I'm tempted to say, "Ah, just, I've had enough of this," I can sort of go back to that And I mean, I've had experiences all through my life, and none of them have been really associated directly with the First Vision story, as far as I know. But over and over again, I've had repeated assurances from the Lord that this is where he wants me to be. And that's kind of where I've landed now. Is I'm less interested in sort of convincing everybody else that the way I see things is the right way to see things. But I'm very convinced that this is where the Lord wants me. Does that make any sense?

Amen. That's how I feel.

Well, except Karen, you've had a rather eventful and probably traumatic experience in the last few days. And I don't want to make you relive any of that.

Let me stop you. It was not traumatic in the least. It really was not traumatic in the least. My testimony is in Christ. And there was— I knew this was coming. It did not bother me. I mean, I'm bothered because it's— I feel it's the wrong thing. For them to do, but I know that I'm doing what God wants me to do. I have complete confidence in that and assurances, and he's made it completely clear the entire time. So I was completely at peace the entire time. I spent my whole— well, go ahead, and because people might not even know what you're referring to, so we'll talk about that.

Yeah, do you want to tell that story? I think you probably— you've experienced it firsthand.

Okay. So let's see, so shall we go back to how I even— it's about polygamy, that's the root of this. So, um, let me go back a couple years. Um, well, let's go back a lot of years. Uh, I, like 99% of people, probably 99.5% of people, um, you know, found polygamy to be repugnant and awful and a horrible thing that we might need to look forward to. Um, I do not re— again, as a convert, I don't remember how I first found out about it, but I'm sure it was gradual. I believe it was gradual. So then, you know, at some point you read through Doctrine and Covenants 132. It's like, oh my goodness, this just sounds so horrible. You know, if she doesn't believe it, if she doesn't accept polygamy, she'll be destroyed. You know, it's like, wow, this is just came out of no, you know, that tone kind of comes out of nowhere. So the thing is, it's, it's canonized scripture. What are you going to do? Right. That's, that's that. So you got to get okay with it. So I thought the, the good part is I've always felt a connection to God. I've always known that he loves me. And so I thought, well, he'll change my heart and it won't be unpalatable anymore, or He'll explain something that I don't understand now and it'll be clear later. So, um, this kind of, people call it setting it on a shelf. I guess that's, I guess that's close enough, you know, but it would rear its ugly head, of course, in the most inopportune times. You're like, is my husband going to, you know, be intimate with somebody else at some point? That's just, it's outrageous to think about. So you just trust, you just trust that. That it'll be okay. And I knew for a fact that I would not get on the other side and be ticked off or be disappointed or anything like that. So I trusted. Well, I want to say 2022, I think, probably. I, I can't pin that, I'd have to go back and look. But on my YouTube feed, here comes this video that says, who was the first LDS polygamist, Brigham or Joseph? And I was like, what is, is this a question? So I, that was, that video was by Rob Fotheringham. A lot of people are familiar with it. Oh my goodness. In 2 hours I was done. He, he had all the receipts and the only question was, are they legitimate? So he had, he didn't have any, uh, links to the documents that he was showing, but he had screenshots. So there I am squinting at the little URL, you know, the nonsense PFQ9. So I would painstakingly type those in and here they came up on the Joseph Smith Papers Project and all these reliable, you know, completely bona fide sources. So I was like, oh yeah, that makes so much more sense. It did not start with Joseph. Paradigm shift done. I was done and thrilled, you know, cartwheels.

Yay.

This is awesome. And so then after that, you know, more things pop up into my feed. Eventually I saw Michelle Stone, you know, some of hers, and I would, we would look at those and they were very long form videos, you know, about a specific subject or something. So it's like we'd pop in once in a while to those. But, um, at some point I saw her struggling to get her videos uploaded and, and long story short, well, One of hers was she wasn't able to upload her regular video. So all she knew how to do was talk into her phone and upload it. She didn't edit. Her son was doing that for her. And there was one week where he couldn't do that. So she was telling the story of what had happened to her at church that day. It was a Sunday and her bishop had called her in very upset or called her on the phone, very upset because he was getting these messages from perfect strangers telling him that she and her minions were leading people out of the church and all this stuff with her message that Joseph wasn't a polygamist. And somewhere in what she was saying, she mentioned that her bishop had not watched her stuff. Now that made the steam come out of my ears. Like, who, who would give credence to some total stranger without looking at what Michelle herself is actually saying about it? So I actually tracked her down online and went to her house the next day and gave her a hug. So later when I could figure out that she needed some help editing, I asked her if she wanted help from me because I knew how to do that. And so I helped her ever since. So that was like episode 81 on. Um, all right. The things that she would say were so well-researched, but once in a while there'd be this really great nugget, just a really powerful thing. And not just from her. I mean, A lot of it was from Rob Fotheringham, some other scholars that were researching these things. And sometimes the things were like, that is so important. Everyone needs to know this. And I thought this needs, these zingers need to be compiled into one place. And, um, I saw people saying, well, you can't, you can't do that. It's too big a subject. And I was like, well, let's give it a shot. So I made a, so I made a 2-hour movie just compiling all the documents. And I tried to leave my own, you know, conclusions and things out of it, but it all speaks for itself. And we've— it's stuff we've never heard. I mean, how ridiculous that your average church member doesn't know that our original Doctrine and Covenants called polygamy a crime and specified one man and one wife. How is that not taught in our history? That's preposterous that you would have this thick brick of a saint's book. And that's not in there anywhere. How ridiculous that the Gospel Topics Essays, you know, don't mention that every time Joseph spoke about polygamy, it was to condemn it. Every time that Emma, to her dying day, said he never had any wife but me, either spiritual or otherwise, in no sense. Like, these are important, fundamental, contemporary, contemporaneous You know, uh, statements and accounts. How are these left out? So it was appalling to me that the stories we get from the Saints book and the Gospel Topics Essays were all based on these very late claims, 25 to 60 years after Joseph's death, for crying out loud. That was appalling. So, so I set out to, you know, collect this, these documents that I thought were so important into one place. And honestly, I thought it would just be showing this other side. I thought the two sides would kind of still be equal and people would just have to make up their mind. Well, as I'm doing this, I'm looking at the standard narrative by, you know, mostly Brian Hales, but Todd Compton and others. And I was appalled at the shoddy evidence that they were using to support the idea that Joseph was a polygamist. It blew me away. I didn't, I had no words. Can I read you one? Just as an illustration. I mean, it's my go-to, but it's not the only one that's this shoddy, but it's, but I think it makes the point. Um, Brian Hales counts Mary Herron, a lady named Mary Herron, as a wife of Joseph Smith. Now Mary herself never said a word. Indicating that, not at all. And Brian says, we, let's see, here's, here's how it reads in my book. I transcribed my movie and put it into, into a book. So it's easier for some people. I said, we have nothing from Mary herself. Brian Hales states that according to one isolated source, Mary Herron, the legal wife of John Snyder, was sexually involved with Joseph Smith in 1843. That single source referred to is Joseph Ellis Johnson, Mary's son-in-law, who was facing church discipline himself for impregnating the wife of Lorenzo Snow. Hale cites the rather crass claim that Johnson was, quote, familiar with the first frigging that was done in his house with his mother-in-law by Joseph. And Brian notes that this statement constitutes the primary evidence of a relationship between Joseph Smith and Mary Herron Snyder. That, that is absurd by any standard, let alone a scholarly standard. That's, it's crazy. Who, who would, who would prioritize that over Joseph or Emma or Hiram's own words? I couldn't get over it. There's another lady that he lists as one of the wives and he literally says there is no evidence for a sealing between Joseph and and this lady Lucinda Pendleton. Then, then why is she on your list? So on and on, um, prioritizing the words of William McClellan, who was an enemy to, to the Smiths. He robbed Joseph's home while Joseph was in prison, and yet he prioritizes McClellan's testimony over Emma's and tells us that according to McClellan, In an 1872 letter, he, Emma confided in him that Joseph was both an adulterer and a polygamist. So I was blown away. Uh, we'll get off of that. It's not a Brian bashing session, but I'm saying that the more I looked into these quote sources, I was shocked. So that went into the movie. It had to. So I picked, I went to Brian's site where he talks about The 35 Wives, and he's got his website, and I just pulled from there, and I pulled what I felt were the strongest, were his strongest evidences, and, and those are some of them. So, okay, so fast forward that I made that movie. I published it on October 10th of last year, 2024. Um, I was prepared for whatever. You know, I didn't, it had to be out there because this is such a relief to me. And it's such, the whole polygamy idea is such a torment to women that if there is documentation showing that this was not from Joseph, this is one of the most important things I could share because its tentacles are everywhere. Um, I have a friend whose now ex-husband had a huge porn problem during their marriage. And at one point it was ruining their marriage. And at one point he said, well, I don't even see what the big deal is because at some point we're going to have more women in the marriage anyway. So what's the difference? Uh, to which I would say, there's not a difference. There's really not. And you're right. They're both horrible though. That's the point. They're not both godly. They're both horrible. So yeah, this ruins this. Torments women and it ruins men. It turns, it makes them think that it's okay to kind of be on the prowl. I mean, some men are like that, uh, and they don't mean to be, but they think that's the doctrine. So they're, they keep their eyes open for maybe an extra wife sometime. It's so awful. And Carolyn Pearson wrote her book, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. And, you know, she still believes that Joseph did it and I don't think she's looked at the primary documents. I think she's just read Compton and Hales and all the other scholars that talk about him, about Joseph Smith. But she's, but in her book, what's valuable is she gives everyone's accounts who wrote to her when she solicited people's experiences. All these women and some men wrote to her explaining how, how it's damaged them, sometimes their whole life. I learned about this as a teen in seminary, and it tormented me my whole life. When I first married my husband, my whole first week of marriage was miserable because I kept thinking, I wonder if I'm always going to be his only wife or if there will be somebody else. Um, women that are petrified that they'll die early and that he'll marry somebody else after they die and they'll have to live polygamy in heaven. I mean, all of this. So yes, it was so important. I didn't care. I didn't care about any consequences. So I published my movie. It's called Woe Unto You Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy. And I published in October last year. Okay. That was long. Fast forward a year. So on the anniversary, coincidentally, of my publishing that on October 10th of this year, I was privileged to go see the screening of Truth and Treason. The movie about Helmut Huebner, the young teenager in Germany who was typing up pamphlets, um, trying to wake his fellow Germans up to their awful situation and understand how bad the Nazi regime was. And he would type up these pamphlets and he and his friends would distribute them on car windshields or mail slots or wherever they could to try to get the word out and try to help the Germans be more honest with themselves and and really acknowledge the terrible situation they were in. So the Nazis, you know, caught him and they tortured him and they executed him. So that was extra poignant for me being the one-year anniversary of my movie, you know, and knowing that other people were being threatened by their leaders. I hadn't had a word said to me by my leaders, even though I'm very, very open, uh, at church about it. So The next day, the next day I get a text, the stake president would like to meet with you. I was like, well, that message is pretty clear to me from God. He lets me see this movie. If this kid is going to be tortured and killed for his beliefs, you bet I'm not backing down from mine. So I went in and talked with the stake president and long story short, we had 3 really good meetings. He's a very good man. Man. And I, I explain this to my viewers. He's a good man. I've known him for a long time and I believe he's doing what he believes is right. So he listened to me very respectfully at every meeting. He would refer back to things I said in a previous meeting. So I know he was listening and, you know, he asked me to take everything down. Take down my website, take down my video, take down my billboards. Yes, I have billboards. And, um, or else, you know, there would be a membership council and I understood that. So I actually, um, I guess humored him. I said, look, God has been with me every step of the way, but I will go ask him one more time. And I, I won't say I had a vision, but I had an impression. That Joseph and Hyrum and Emma were extremely happy at the work that's being done to clear their names. And I felt that this is an absolute privilege for me to participate in it. So no, I'm not taking it down. So, um, that's that. And so we set a date for the membership council, which, which was surreal. You know, he was like, well, I understand why you feel that you have to do what you have to do. And I said, I understand why you feel that you have to do what you have to do. We gave each other a hug. It was really fine. And the membership council was like, hey, does Friday work for you? Sure. You know, it was just a little surreal. So, um, I was allowed to bring some people to speak for me. My bishop and Relief Society president were able to be there. So we had a room full and honestly. We thought we were going to go in at 10:00 AM on Friday, last Friday. We thought it'd be an hour. We were all going to go to brunch afterwards. It was 4 and a half hours. This wasn't easy for them. And I don't think that you take 4 and a half hours out of your day as a leader because you're just trying to coerce someone or you're just throwing your weight around or you're just, it's not that they really They really are trying to do what's right. So.

And then what, so you had the 4 and a half hour meeting and then how did it end? What, what was the conclusion?

So they had, so the reason it, part of the reason it took so long was because, well, we got started late because he was accidentally waiting for us when we were waiting for him. But, um, but we went in and, you know, he would explain let me explain what this council is about and what it's not about. It's not about figuring out what's true and what's not true. It's just about whether what Karen is promoting aligns with the church's current position on the historical narrative. And, you know, he said that at our very first meeting, and I was like, oh, and I went easy on him. I didn't want to you know, push back too much. We never argued. We never cut each other off sentence. It was very, a great exchange every time we talked. But on the second interview, I said, you know, to me, Jesus is truth. Christ is truth. He said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. I think it's a synonym for him. It's his title. So for me, if you say it's not about truth, it's saying it's not about Christ. And for me, he's 100% at the top. So for me, truth is at the top of everything, no matter what the handbook says, no matter what the gospel topics say that month or anything. And that just boggled my mind. The second thing I should have said earlier was that also blew my mind was I said, so, you know, early on I said, so how does, how does the excommunication work? Do they still have the whole high council gather where where you get 6 of them for you and 6 of them against you, like it's laid out in the Doctrine and Covenants. And he said, no, no, they don't do that anymore. And I said, they really don't? I had heard that they didn't. And I had a friend that got excommunicated with just receiving a letter. And I said, you're kidding. They really don't? He said, no, no, if it's a high-profile case, they might do that, but you'd have to get special permission. And I said, you literally have to have special permission to conduct it the way the canonized scripture from the Prophet Joseph Smith lays out. Like that was mind-boggling. And then to bring it home, I have to conform to whatever the church narrative, historical narrative is that day as set by the historians, you know, and chase that around or the handbook. The handbook doesn't even get printed out in paper anymore. It changes so often. So I have to conform to whatever that is and policy while We take this canonized scripture and just set it aside. And that just blows my mind. And the whole time he was like, well, I can see how that would be your perspective, you know, things like that. So it's all good. Um, I knew I was on solid ground the entire time. That's why it never bothered me, Jim. You know, I just never was bothered. So at this, um, excommunication thing, you know, they bring in a couple of my friends, my advocates, and let them speak. And he'd go over all those. Things again, what it is about, what it isn't about, and we love Karen and da da da. And then those people would go in and somebody else would come in and he'd repeat it. So that's part of why it took so long. But when we are excused for them to deliberate, they were in there, my recollection is maybe 30 or 40 minutes. It was a long time, which made me really happy. Obviously they're talking about it, you know, um, So we came back in and they said, okay, we've spent a lot of time on our knees here and, you know, we love you, but we've unanimously decided to withdraw your membership. So, um, you know, at that point my bishop's kind of misty and my Relief Society president's teary and, and the stake pres— there was one stake presidency member who was absolutely crying. He had his glasses off and was just wiping his eyes. And I later realized why. I think I know why, because he was the most like, we have to conform to whatever the prophet says. That's the most important thing. And I realized later the reason he was crying so much is I think he really believes that I'm cut off from God's blessings. I'm, you know, I no longer have gift of the Holy Ghost. I no longer have my temple blessings. I think that's probably why that he was so, so weepy and so upset. And I had no such— I knew none of those things were true. So I'm the one in the room going, it's all good, you guys. It's all good. I'm still coming to church. My life doesn't change. It's all fine. And my cute Relief Society president was like, but, but I need you as a ministering sister. And I said, I'm right here. Tell me who needs help. It's really all right. So it was the funniest thing. And, uh, anyway, so my husband later said it felt like a funeral, not for the obvious reason that like I was being cut off, but he said, you know, I'm in my suit on a weekday. We went out to eat afterwards and he just said it sort of felt like a funeral. And I said, that's funny because I bet you at a funeral, the deceased person's probably the only one that's okay. Probably just trying to get everyone to be like, it's okay, everyone, I'm all right. So, uh, here's the kicker. What do you think I did the next day? These were on, I swear, these were already on the docket anyway. The next day I cleaned the church and I helped somebody move. Now that's the real litmus test. I vote I'm still in the church. What do you guys think?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

You're still in the church. Yeah. You, so this, you still, this, uh, was kind of a, from your perspective, like an administrative change in your membership, but it didn't change how you feel about Christ and about the church and about the gospel at all. It's, you know, this, you know, the gospel is centered in you as a person. Look what we, look at what you did the next day. You're still very much, uh, the feeling is that you are still, uh, You know, part of God's church and that relationship has not been impacted between you and God at all.

Right. Little c church. Yeah. I would say little c church, right? The Church of the Lamb, the Church of Christ, um, which, which no one can, no one could possibly thinking about it for 10 seconds. You really can't say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the same thing as the Church of the Lamb. That we're all striving to belong to. That doesn't make sense. There are, we know there are pedophiles in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are bishops who have abused, you know, that's, that is not the same. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a vehicle to help you get to the Church of the Lamb. And a lot of times it does a great job, but like the phrase, I know the church is true. I've said that plenty in my life, but I haven't said that for years because I don't know what it means. I don't know what I would even mean by that. A friend of mine said, that's like saying, I know this pencil is true. Like, what does that even mean? And I, I stopped saying that quite a while back because what I, what I meant by it was, um, what I would mean by it now, if I were to say it now, I would mean that I believe there's truth in the church. I don't even know what I would mean. I just wouldn't say it. I, when I bear my testimony, it's of Christ. It's of Joseph Smith. It's of the Book of Mormon. It's of how much God loves us and that he is willing to reveal truth to us, any of us at any time. His only criteria is keep my commandments. It's not your position. It's not, I would never, you know, say, well, we need to like the Follow the Prophet song. I just think that has done so much damage. A friend of mine, like her grandfather's the one that wrote it or something like that. And it's like, well, I have a, I have a word. Can I have a word with him? Because, and I saw him on a little clip of him once talking about having been commissioned to write that. And they wanted, if I can remember, but they wanted something about Old Testament prophets. They wanted it to have a kind of a folk song feel and it like a Jewish folksy feel or something like that. And they wanted it to be fun to sing. Those were the criteria. They didn't ever tell him, we want it to say, follow the prophet. You know, they just wanted us, and I was like, ah, that really derailed people because that's nowhere in scripture. You're not supposed to follow the prophet. You're supposed to follow Christ. And the prophets are to warn and expound the scriptures. And so, ah, just this displacement. And so the church and the gospel to me, we We have all got a big job of de-disentangling those and making sure we understand what's the gospel and what's church policy and not confusing them.

Totally, totally agree.

Yeah.

Well, I have a friend, Karen. I don't know if I should mention her name, but she's been on Facebook defending you. And I jumped in and wrote a comment, and I'm just going to sort of paraphrase that because I think it— she was very grateful for it because I think it sort of sums up, um, where I think the problem is. I began my comment by saying that I do believe Joseph was a polygamist and that I don't see how you can, um, thread the needle of saying, okay, Joseph was not a polygamist, uh, which means Brigham Young lied and introduced polygamy in Joseph's name. And therefore, uh, from there on, the entire church sort of becomes a fraud, uh, because it's based on a lie. I mean, polygamy was essentially the core doctrine of most of the 19th century church, uh, under Brigham Young. And, you know, so you go through that. And so, so, so I say that as preface to my main point, which was, but really, so what? In other words, in other words, the fact that I can't thread that needle, that I don't know how to reconcile sustaining current prophets with the idea that Brigham Young fraudulently introduced polygamy in Joseph's name. The fact that I can't do that doesn't mean I can't give space and grace to people who can. Uh, you know, my, my primary contact with, uh, do you— are you offended by the term polygamy deniers?

I'm actually not. I'm fine with that. I have found, I think it was Laurel Ulrich that was on a recent, um, interview with Patrick Mason and she started out addressing polygamy deniers and she was like, I know polygamy happened because my great grandma or whatever. And I was like, and so there are a few people that think that that term means that we think it didn't happen. I think that's few and far between. Most people know that we acknowledge that polygamy happened. So yeah, I'm fine with it, actually.

Well, I, I, I mean, whatever term you want to use, I don't want to be respectful.

Polygamy skeptic is probably better. I think polygamy skeptic is probably a more respectful term, but, but I personally don't mind polygamy denier. I hate—

well, uh, the— so now I've lost my train of thought.

I'm so sorry. So you, how could you, you have space for people that— sure, yeah.

I mean, because if, if somebody is able to say, okay, Joseph was not a polygamist, and yet I still sustain Dallin H. Oaks as president of the church and the current apostles, I mean, I don't know how I would get there from here, but there are people who do get there from here. And if that's the case, I don't see any possible grounds for any kind of membership action. Because if you go through the temple recommend questions, you know, we've had Terrell Givens on this podcast, and I was involved in a documentary called An Inconvenient Faith.

I saw it.

And we interviewed both Terrell and Fiona Givens. And Fiona, in the documentary, says it is not a temple recommend question. You don't have to say— you can believe polygamy was a horrendous mistake and still get a temple recommend, uh, which is true. There is no temple recommend question that asks, do you believe that polygamy was of God? Do you believe Joseph was a polygamist? I mean, I go through those There is the temple recommend question that, you know, do you sustain or support teachings contrary to the church? But even that, it's like believing Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. Um, I, I don't, I don't understand how that is a teaching contrary to the church, particularly since the church is really trying the best it can to put polygamy in the rearview mirror. It's trying very hard. I mean, it's trying—

It was. It's kind of doubled down now, you know.

Well, it's trying to walk this really fine line, and I don't really know how the church is doing this, because the church, you know, forever and ever, if asked about polygamy, if asked about plural marriage, you know, during Mitt Romney's campaign in 2012, I was very active in Republican politics, And the line is, we're not polygamists. You know, those are all just the FLDS Church. That's Warren Jeffs. They have nothing to do with us. That's not us. We are not polygamists. Uh, and the church has really been kind of adamant about that because they recognize just what a black eye that is to be associated with polygamy. As you say, I don't know anybody really who genuinely doesn't think polygamy is just sort of, uh, horrific. Horrific. Yeah. I mean, I have plenty of polygamous ancestors, and I've told the story on here about Heber J. Grant, who was my great-grandfather, and he sort of presented as a monogamist by the time he became president of the church, including my great-grandmother.

Okay.

Had passed away. So the woman that was his wife when he was president of the church was not my great-grandmother. But he had written all of these lovely letters to all of his wives, and there's all this correspondence. And Truman Madsen, who was my first cousin once removed, um, and also a grandson of Heber J. Grant, um, said, oh, you've got to publish these, Francis, to my grandmother. He says, because this would make polygamy look good. And she called Spencer Kimball, who was president of the church, and he came to her house that same day and said, you are under no obligation to publish this because there's polygamy in my family too, and it's ugly, uh, and I wouldn't want any of that published. And so we just want to keep a lid on this as much as we can. So here we are with this sort of attitude, okay, we want to keep a lid on this, and yet We, I mean, we had that Primary lesson where they had the cartoons introducing polygamy to Primary children.

Yeah, the Doctrine and Covenants stories for children.

Yeah, I mean, so we very much want to have our cake and eat it too, because I think that most of the brethren are in good faith convinced, of the historical record, uh, being the Josephus polygamist. A lot of people listen to my conversation with Michelle Brady Stone, which happened before, incidentally, her conversation with Ian and myself on this podcast, and they go, oh, you guys were so heated. And, and a lot of the comments were, um, Jim didn't even defend his position on polygamy. And I think people just didn't understand that wasn't what I went on that podcast to do. And when she came on this podcast, uh, the purpose here was, uh, we want you to tell your story. And people who listen to that go, wait, wait, you recorded that after your podcast with her? Because that was so contentious and this was so not. The contention got into politics. She's—

yeah, yeah, big Trump. That was all about Trump, if I recall. So he tends to do that.

That tends to throw me over the edge every once in a while. But my purpose with Michelle in her podcast was, I think there is room for the church for people like Michelle, for people like you who have unorthodox beliefs. Because if there isn't, then do we start excommunicating people who think that the Book of Mormon is inspired fiction? Do we start excommunicating people that have any number of heretical ideas about Heavenly Mother? Or, I mean, there are so many different rabbit holes that people go down, and I don't know that there is a single member of the church that doesn't hold some kind of heterodox position, uh, that is contrary to what the church teaches or believes. And, you know, when I first sort of started my kind of foray into the world of Mormon apologetics and everything else, and I went on the Bill Reel podcast, and I had a member of my ward call me and saying, you're in serious trouble because you said a lot of things that the brethren aren't going to like. Like, you were doubling down on the idea that the brethren aren't infallible. They're not going to like to hear that. And I thought, well, I want to get out in front of this. And I called a guy in my stake presidency who I had served as a counselor in his bishopric. And his response has been sort of my gold standard. He said, Jim Bennett, you were trying to defend the church. We don't, we don't discipline people who are trying to defend the church. We discipline people who go on the attack. And I thought, okay, so it's one thing to say, all right, I, I believe something that's maybe heterodox or that's not entirely orthodox, but I'm not attacking the church and I'm sustaining the church. Uh, I, and I haven't really run into a problem since. Now, I think that this whole idea here is that, do you think your stake president or the people that are disciplining you on this, uh, have they told you that you have gone on the attack that you're attacking the church?

So no, no, that wasn't the words they used. So, um, and to— I know people will be wondering if it came from higher up, and it 100% did. But, um, so he was— my stake president was in council about me, uh, with area authorities and others for months before he approached me. So, um, so he only got in in January. Of this year. And at that time, uh, there was a general authority visiting because of that switch. And I always just throw a couple of books in my bag whenever I go to anything, even though I knew there wasn't a chance in heck that I'd be able to talk to this general authority. They just don't, you just can't do that, you know, when they visit, but I threw a couple of books in my bag and when, um, he was talking and teaching. He actually asked a question that was near and dear to my heart. So I gave my answer and he said, oh, I love that so much. It was talking about Christ. And he said, I love that so much. And then during his, the rest of his talk, his lesson, he would sometimes kind of motion back to me in reference to what I had said earlier. And the second time he did that, I thought, oh my goodness, he's going to come over to me afterwards and thank me for my comment and shake my hand. And I'm going to be able to put this book in his hand. And that's exactly what happened. So it was very miraculous. So I've been very open about this. So people say, oh, I bet there was a Strengthening the Church Members committee spy in your ward or looking at your social media. I was like, well, if there was, uh, he had the easiest job on the planet because I'm very open about this. I'm never, I'm never, I never lower my voice when I talk to people about it. I talk very openly. So anyway, I gave him my book and he asked for my contact info and I put it on there. And, and, but he unfortunately never contacted me personally with this and just, you know, talked to my stake president. But, um, but so it's not about your beliefs. They are quick, very quick to clarify. You can believe whatever you want, but the problem is when you are public about it. And to me, that is so funny. I heard, you know, Michelle had Brian Hales on her show early on to talk about the documents. How come if Hiram was supposed to be converted to this, you know, in 1842 or '43, why weeks before his death was he condemning it still? You know, she wanted to talk about it and say, what's your take on this? It doesn't make sense to me. And all he did was come on the show with a PowerPoint presentation about how she's on the road to apostasy. And it was appalling. And one of the things he kept saying is, you can believe whatever you want quietly, but you can't teach it publicly. That's when you're in trouble. And to me, that is being hearers of the word only and not doers. It's exactly the opposite of what Christ taught to do. And here we have Doctrine and Covenants 123 that says that we should waste and wear out our lives bringing hidden things of darkness to light. That is what we're doing. And so this whole idea of you can, you can believe anything, but just, you can't teach it. Well, I just don't buy that. I don't subscribe to it. If I think it's true and it's helpful, I'm going to talk about it. So, um, so that's the main thing. And of course, like I said, I've got my website that points to my movie that's got, you know, it's approaching like 60,000 views now, which isn't you know, it's not viral, but it's— that's pretty good for a year. And I've— and we do billboards that just say— they have Joseph and Emma, and it says, one man, one wife, josephtoldthetruth.org. That's my website. And so, you know, very high profile, very out in the open. So that's why— that's why I was in their sights. That's why I was a target. But, um, can— I know this isn't— this, like you say, this wasn't your point, but I would love to address, because because I think people are curious, how do you, as you say, thread the needle, right? But here it's so simple to me. Um, this whole, well, if Brigham did this, if, you know, if Brigham, you know, introduced polygamy and claimed it was from Joseph, you know, that would mean that he wasn't a true prophet. And then you've got this whole domino effect. And so what does that mean for the church today? And I just, absolutely reject that completely. Christ never said, 'Ye shall know them by their line of authority,' right? We all know that he said, 'Ye shall know them by their fruits.' And I personally think that we have the story of King Noah in there as this prominent story in the Book of Mormon for a reason. King Noah, when he got into power, put down all the priests that his father had consecrated and replaced them with idolatrous, polygamist, whoremongering, lazy ones. Okay. So if there was any line of authority, it's gone now for sure. He cut them off and he replaced them. And yet not only that, but one of the wicked ones, right? Alma runs off and repents and is called of God. To lead the church. That's powerful. Like, God can choose whoever he wants, and he is not bound by, well, I'd love to call Alma, but unfortunately wicked King Noah didn't lay his hands on his head. You know, or did he? I mean, it doesn't matter because he was a brand new priest and had replaced the ones that were in. So there's just no line that, that can really be argued. And so here's this person without any line of authority leading the church. I think that is awesome. So to me, I can take Brigham and say he did not act like a prophet. He said the most horrific things and he attributed them to Joseph Smith. I do not believe that he was a prophet. And some people do, and that's fine. You know, they, they say, well, nobody's perfect. I'm like, oh wow. You know, for me, the line for imperfect, you know, I mean, he far crosses that. There's a difference between oops, I made a mistake and I have lured women 1,000 miles from their homes and— sorry— and threatened them with their eternal salvation if they don't be polygamous women. You know, that, that's just not the same at all. So no, I, I don't believe that Brigham was a prophet, but I'm willing to look at others in this line and say, look at their fruits. So if someone wants to know if Dallin H. Oaks is a prophet, go listen to him at conference, look at his biography. Listen to him and judge them by their, by their fruits, exactly like Christ said to do. And I don't have any problem with that at all. President Benson said some of the most prophetic things and they're coming to pass right now. He also gave that awful talk called the 14 Fundamentals of Following the Prophet, I think it's called. And he was actually called on the carpet for that and by the prophet who said, Don't put that kind of pressure on me, you know. And I think it was Leonard Arrington that documented that. And so he publicly gave this talk, quietly got reprimanded, and you have people today still quoting that talk. So anyway, it's just really rough. But by their fruits you shall know them. So I'm all about listening, planting the seed, and seeing if it's enlightening like Alma said it would be, and seeing if it's delicious. Polygamy is the only doctrine that we teach that is morally repugnant. You can't think of another one. I mean, you can think of old ones like blood atonement that Brigham also taught, and we've rejected that.

Well, I think you can look at races and the priesthood.

Yeah, there you go. Another Brighamism, right? And I don't know how many people know this. I keep finding that I keep finding more and more that people still are not aware that the church has disavowed that as ever having come from God, tacitly by, uh, they asked, they reached out to Paul Reeve, the historian who's very expert on the race issue, the race and priesthood issue, and they approached him a couple of years ago and said, will you write a book? We're gonna start putting these books into Deseret Book called Let's Talk About blank, you know, uncomfortable subjects, by which a lot of times they mean stuff that Brigham taught. And so they approached Paul and he said, uh, you don't want me to write that because I lay it right at Brigham Young and his racism. And they said, actually, we do want you to write it. And he was blown away. I heard him talk about this in person and he was so shocked that they wanted him to do this. So he did. That book is in Deseret Book right now. It, it, it. It did not come, the ban did not come from God, and it did not come from Joseph. And that is the conclusion right now.

That book is life-changing. I was actually, I interviewed Paul Reeve for Inconvenient Faith. I mean, I did not direct that movie. Robert Reynolds conducted most of the interviews, but he was not able to be there when Paul Reeve was there. And so I got to conduct that interview solo. And got a chance to visit with him, talk to him about that specifically. Lovely human being, devoted member of the church. But he absolutely said, yeah, I won't write this unless you let me reference the 1852 speech to the territorial legislature where Brigham Young introduces the curse of Cain as church doctrine. You know, the Race and the Priesthood essay comes right up to the line. Of admitting it's a mistake. It comes right up to the line and says, well, no, they weren't fence sitters. No, they weren't less valiant. No, there is no curse of Cain. No, interracial marriage is not a sin. I mean, it disavows all of these elements, but when it comes to sort of the core of it, it doesn't cross that line. And it allows, for instance, Dallin Oaks to go out and say, well, yeah, I don't understand all of this, but since it came from God we can't say God is a racist. It's like, no, President Oaks, you're so close, but no, you can't say God is a racist because God is not a racist. And we have scripture that makes that clear. God, you know, all are alike unto God, black and white, bond and free. And so, you know, but the fact that they, they quietly have let Paul Reeve make that, uh, case in a Deseret Book published book is a step forward. And if you talk to individual General Authorities, you talk to Stephen Snow, for instance, who was— he was the advisor for the Sam Granado campaign when I worked for him. I talked to him about this a little bit.

He's—

they're happy to admit it was a mistake, but only in private. In public, that's a line that they are terrified to cross. They are terrified to cross a line that shows they are indeed fallible, and not just fallible in a limited sort of I-can-forget-your-birthday kind of way, but fallible in a way that they can teach false doctrine the same way everybody else can, because they have agency just like everybody else does. For them to not be able to do that means that God had to extract their agency, which is not something that ever happens. So sorry.

Exactly. No, I agree.

Because I think you're absolutely right on the Paul Reeve thing, and I think you're absolutely right that that kind of is a watershed moment. It is. Do you see any similar sorts of, um, rumblings anyway? I mean, I know the church is kind of doubling down now on It's not, we won't tolerate the fact that people believe Joseph was not a polygamist. Do you see any sort of official uneasiness or tension there, uh, and indications that maybe there is, there's another side to this in church leadership?

I've been told there is, but it's, of course, uh, no matter where you are in the hierarchy, it's it's very awkward to oppose, you know, outwardly. So I've, I mean, I've had several historians say that they're out there, they find it outrageous that people are excommunicated for interpreting the documents differently. And again, it's the public, it's the public opposition that they oppose, right? But I, to me, there is no other kind of opposition. If you oppose it quietly, are you really opposing it? So, um, anyway, so some of the historians are pretty outraged that anyone would be excommunicated for just seeing the historical documents differently when they're right here. And, um, but then there's other historians that are just outraged at me and, and the people in my camp where they're like, you're just undermining the church. You know, Stephen Smoot just wrote the most vitriolic Facebook post a few weeks ago, and it was like, wow. And I thought He's so mad, you know, he's like, ah, these QAnon Mormons and look at all this, just a Trojan horse. This whole monogamy thing's just a Trojan horse to let all these other horrible ideas in. And so I went and visited him and I'm not sure.

Because I like Stephen Smoot. I've met him a number of times. I think he's really funny. I think he's whip smart.

Just tons of these guys are great. They're great as people. And then they put their historian hat on and they're just so angry. So I thought, well, you know, I was just going to, anyway, instead of doing an episode, I just went to talk to him. So I went and found him at BYU and it was quite miraculous. Again, it was just miraculous that God let me show up at his door right when he showed up at his door. So he talked to me for almost an hour, I'd say. And, you know, I just, I said, I don't buy the Trojan horse thing because there is all this documentation. I have compiled so much documentation in my movie and my book that I made from the movie. Um, it's not, it's all there. You can see it. They're concrete documents. This is not my feelings. This is not me just hating polygamy. So I can't handle that Joseph did it. It has nothing to do with it. My gosh, I felt like that for my whole life. I'm almost 60. So if that was the problem, I would have said something 20, 30 years ago. That's not it. It's the documentation that's come out and is now available to everyone through the Joseph Smith Papers Project. This is what makes it different now. So anyway, I said, look, all this is documented. If you had this kind of documentation for those other things that you're saying were sneaking in, then yeah, you would have to look at those too. But as long as there's not, you know, supportive documentation for that, you don't have to accept it all. It's not a package deal. And I said, you as a historian should know that. You have to separate it and not take it all as a package. And so he kind of agreed to that, you know, but, but he's, it's just really making them angry because I think of what, because of what you said, they have this idea that there's this domino effect. And if Brigham, if Brigham wasn't, you know, a true prophet, or if he had made this kind of terrible error, I have a hard time calling it error when it's so blatantly wrong. Like he, He just said things that were false, um, and made claims that were false and that flew in the face of the things that Joseph said. So to me, it's more than an error, but however you view it, you know, if Brigham was so wrong about this, what does that mean for the church today? I'm like, it doesn't mean anything. It means that as always, you should look at them and judge them by their fruits. Go listen to conference and go weigh it all for yourself and plant the seeds. If they say something, plant the seed. If it's good, do it. If it's not, don't. My goodness. It's just not complicated for me. Christ is at the head. It's all about him. It's not about this domino of church leaders. I can't get on board with that. Um, I turned the, uh, you know, another thing is, oh, you've got to go through the proper channels, you know, and you, you have, I was told many times, can't you just set this aside and wait for things to change in God's time, which is just so outrageous. They told Martin Luther King Jr. the same thing. They said, why do you have to do this now? Why can't you wait for things to change? And he, you know, my answer is the same as his answer. Things don't change just because time passes. Things change because of what's being done during that time. And this is the change. These documents, bringing light to them, this is part of the change that is now here. It is God's time to clear this up. It is God's time. To change this narrative. It's so exciting. So I knew there was precisely zero chance of any of the church leaders watching some movie from some rando. So at least there was like a 1% chance that they might read a book. So I turned it into a book form and sent it to each of the apostles. And then, um, like I said, the general authority who visited, I give it to him. Um, I gave one to, I of my movie, at least to my old stake president and my old— anyway, I've gone through all the proper channels and I've heard exactly zero back from anybody until I was excommunicated. So it's fine. It's like, this is the time. And so, yeah, I think we really need to take a look at the possibility that we had a King Noah in our line. It's okay. That's okay. There are plenty of Almas., and we don't need to lump it all together and be afraid of that. I think it's, I think it's fine. And what's interesting, I think you guys probably saw the Faith Matters series a couple of weeks ago with Patrick Mason and, and, um, Aubrey. Uh, anyway, they were hosting several people and I don't know, maybe you didn't see it, but they spent a week on polygamy and they had Laurel Ulrich, they had Brittany or Bethany Spaulding. They had Bill Turnbull, Patrick Mason, and it was— what was crazy is that most of them, I won't say all, but the vast majority of them believed that polygamy was never of God, and they believed that Joseph was wrong to do it and Brigham was wrong to do it. And that, you know, they're pretty public about this. And it's crazy that that's okay to believe that the founding prophet was wrong to do it, that he actually slept with all these women without God's permission. But somehow we just are supposed to say, well, we can't have them up on a pedestal. They're not perfect. I'm like, if my husband was on that level of a pedestal, we'd have been divorced years ago. Are you kidding me? Like he. Literally, supposedly Joseph married women behind Emma's back. He supposedly married a 14-year-old. I mean, these are outrageous. This is not having someone up on a pedestal to say those things are wrong. That's not the definition of imperfect. That is straight up wicked. So to say, well, this idea that Joseph was wrong to do it, Brigham was wrong to do it, but they're not perfect, so it's all good. Um, people are going to be elbowing each other to get to the exit door if we promote this. And that's where the wind seems to be blowing. So to me, the church needs the correct narrative now more than ever, because if you say no, Joseph didn't do that, the documents all show it. He denied it. There's no children from any marriage, but Emma, this is helpful to say, okay, I can keep the Book of Mormon. I can understand that the Restoration was real. This part is true. And if Brigham did this, fine, we had a King Noah, but let's move on from that and just look at today's church and judge it on its merits. I just have zero problem with that. What do you, what do you guys think of that? Is that, does that not sound reasonable? Or what do you think?

Everybody knows that King Noah is not Brigham Young. It's Donald Trump. Just so you know.

Oh, I, I made that mistake.

Sorry. We, maybe we shouldn't go down that road. It's been a very pleasant conversation.

So I have to, like, I have to say this just for fun, purely for fun. So I ran for office in 2020 and I ran for one of the excuse me, I ran for one of the highest offices in the state. I ran for state Senate and people are like, you know, you really should start with city council and whatnot. And I was like, you guys, I don't want to be in politics. Just, I want someone to run against our guy, our senator. And again, for the umpteenth time, no one's running against him. He always runs unopposed. And my husband was like, you have to do this. So I did. And, um, I actually came. Within 60 swing votes of unseating a 24-year legislator. And that was during—

who was it? Can you name names?

Yeah, sure, sure. It was Wayne Harper. And, um, he, he wasn't particularly there. I have beefs with all 29 senators, so it's like, at least at the time I did. I haven't checked up on them recently. But, um, you know, he was just, just pretty much like all of them. But, uh, but but I just knew I had to do that. And I honestly thought I was just gonna be in there for the token, you know, option for people to vote for. So I was shocked when I came within— yeah, he beat me by 118 votes. So if 60 Harpers had voted for Hyatt, I would have been a senator. Isn't that crazy?

Anyway, you should, you should try again. We're pretty much out of time. Uh, I have to head off. I've got a, a daytime job. But I just want to say, I, I, I— you are It's gonna be one of the most remarkable individuals I've ever met. I mean that. He's so full of integrity, and it's just an honor and a privilege to have met with you and listen to your story. Your story is extraordinary. It reminds me of, as I listen and I kind of highlight some of the pointers in your story, it's difficult for me not to see all the signs leading to a conversation I had with President Oaks when he set me apart on a stake presidency. And the first question he asked in the interview, and I was just, I was with Elder Cook, the young Elder Cook, not the Apostle Cook, and President Oaks. And he asked me if there's anything in my history that could harm the church. And he also asked me, do I support the brethren and the prophet? And it became very clear in that interview that I didn't see it then, but I see it now having resigned from the church. Uh, and by the way, they were coming after me to, um, uh, remove my membership. Uh, so I, I, I took that power away from, uh, from them and I, I didn't want them to have that power over me. But as I look back at that conversation with President Oaks, it, it just reminds me that it's to protect the institution and to protect the, the brethren. Uh, and so I think you are in this situation because you were successful. You had this 2-hour video, there were 60,000 people. I think it was a big part of it is numbers. You were popular, you were bringing these very important, uh, uh, issues to light. You were spreading the, the light of truth on the facts, presenting it as, as it was in, in its honesty and its integrity. Uh, the church didn't like that. I mean, the biggest challenge I think the church faces even to this day, and I remember, uh, learning, hearing about this when I was investigating the church. The only thing I remembered about the church when I was asked about the Mormon church at the age of 16 and growing up in England was that the Mormons had more than one wife. That was it. I didn't hear anything else. So polygamy still plagues the church today as it did back in the '80s when I joined the church. It's still the big, one of the biggest threats, if not the biggest issue. The church is confused. It's lost. It doesn't seem to have any, uh, direction. If you're successful talking about these things based on facts, well, it won't like it. It will excommunicate people. Um, A, there is a major disconnect between the relationship of Joseph Smith and what he did and what he did or didn't practice in regards to polygamy. The whole relationship with Brigham Young, which they're still grappling with, you know, was Joseph the true prophet? Uh, was Brigham Young a false prophet? It sounds like in certain, uh, camps, uh, that's the reality that presents a whole series of problems and issues for the church. And as Jim said, that, you know, they're trying to have the cake and eat it. I think the church is lost. I think it's confused. I think it's trying to contain, I think it's a strategy to contain the issue. I think it was, I think it's just trying to limit, you know, uh, uh, uh, thoughts and control thoughts. And again, I think if you're having those conversations on a local level, I think you're safe. I think you're fine. But once you start getting into the media, and getting the numbers and bringing all these issues to a bigger audience. I think that's where you came unstuck. I absolutely have nothing but complete love and respect for you that you still maintain this relationship with God, with Christ directly, and that no one can control that. No one can influence that but you, and that membership or lack of now makes no difference to you and your relationship with God. And I absolutely think you're a just wonderful human being. It's been a real honor and a privilege. Jim Bennett, do you have any final thoughts, comments? And then we'll hand the last few minutes over to Karen Curry.

I just wanna say thank you very much. Very much appreciate you coming on. You're a lovely human being and wish you all the best.

Well, I appreciate your words. That is so kind. That's very, very kind of you. And I have to say my ward has been so kind. I think I have a very special ward. I feel like I have a little pocket of Zion. They're very reasonable. They're, they know how I feel about things. Some of them agree with me. Some of them are confused about it, but they still love me and they're totally fine. So I've had nothing but respect and kindness from my ward even after this. And so I love them. And I just wanted to say that. And I appreciate my leaders. I really do. And it's funny that you say this, um, because polygamy is the biggest stumbling block to people joining the church. It's the biggest reason that people leave the church when they say, you know, they hear like an anti-Mormon say Joseph did this, that, and the other, and then they check the Gospel Topics Essays and sure enough, he did this, that, and the other supposedly, you know. And so our line is always, you know, we're on the church's side, but they're not. So it's like this would help so much in every way. It's just, it would be the most wonderful thing. So.

Anyway, you, I'm so grateful you have the love and support of your family and your members there. You are just a wonderful human being. It's a real honor and a privilege to have met you and to spend this time with you. And I'm so grateful that you've found, and you have a path that you're following and you personally, you have this deep personal conviction in terms of who you are and where you're going. And I'm so grateful to hear that because you deserve that. And standing up for the truth. Thank you so much for coming on Inside Out. We're so grateful to you. Um, and we would be honored if you would join us again at some point in the future. Thank you for sharing your story. And all of our listeners who have been with us, thank you for staying with us, listening. And we hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did.

Kerry, I just want to say thank you very much. Very much appreciate you coming on. You're a lovely human being. And wish you all the best.

Thank you. Thanks, you guys.