A Conversation with Kathryn, Matthew, and Mitchell Maddix

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes, and I'm here with the extraordinary, uh, uh, friend, a good friend of mine and co-host Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello, Ian. How are you, sir?

I'm doing really well, really well. And it's good to see you, Jim. And as always, I love and enjoy doing these podcasts with you. You know, our intent for doing the podcast is to— we look at the church, we look at the strengths, we look at the weaknesses. We meet with all extraordinary individuals and people who share their stories and experience with us. Some of the folks are inside the Church and still active, and lots of questions, they're navigating the faith, and they share their wonderful experiences in the Church. And of course, others that we meet with as well, perhaps not in the Church, and they share their stories with us as well. And our intent, of course, is to, is to help people. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to talk about things which brings value and strength to build people and to help each other and to do that in the context of the Mormon faith. And today we have quite an extraordinary podcast conversation here. It's an honor to be joined by members of the Maddox family. And so some context here. So Jim Bennett, you and I served in Scotland and we had the extraordinary experience of meeting with a missionary called Elder Maddox. And Elder Maddox was a leader. He was a natural leader. He was an AP, and he was just a wonderful and extraordinary missionary leader who inspired myself and you, Jim, and so many of the missionaries that got to know him and have the privilege of working with him. And today we're joined by Elder Maddox's members of his family, Catherine Maddox, who is Mike's a good wife, Matthew Maddox and, and Mitchell Maddox. And we're here to talk about Elder Maddox and his influence on our lives and, of course, on his family, to understand that and have that conversation in the church, in the context of the church and the faith, and perhaps talk about other sensitive topics that may come up in the conversation as well. But we're here to to actually celebrate Elder Maddox's life, who sadly passed away recently. And if the Maddox family is comfortable talking about that, then we can discuss that. But we want to make sure that everyone's comfortable and that this is a positive experience. And so I hope my introduction is appropriate and respectful and that we feel a spirit of celebrating Elder Maddox's life. And remembering some of the experiences that we had with him. And so what I'll do, if I may, is just go around here and just— if you just give some introductions to yourself. Catherine, you and I met briefly at the recent reunion in Utah. If you could introduce yourself. Mitchell, I think you were there that evening, and I had the privilege of meeting yourself. And Matthew, I don't think I've met you, Matthew. If you could introduce yourself as well, that would be great. But Catherine, if you could introduce yourself first, that would be wonderful.

I'm Mike's wife, and we were married for almost 33 years. We didn't quite make it to that, but very grateful for him as a father and a husband. And he was an extraordinary person. And he did have a lot of energy to do a lot of things. And really, you know, there's different types of mental illness and he had energy up until the end and was serving others. And so it was quite a surprise to the people in our neighborhood and people who knew him because he had come across as, you know, a very happy person and very happy to serve others. Um, in a big way. So, um, and he's also a grandfather to our, our kids too. Thank you for having us today.

No, thank you so much, and we're so grateful to have you with us. Again, we, we want you to feel comfortable, and we, we just love you and appreciate you. And feel free to talk about anything that you feel you need to, and, and don't talk about things that you, you're not comfortable with. So thank you, Catherine.

Just to say, you know, to just make sure everybody on the podcast know that he died by suicide. And, you know, we're just openly sharing that. We would like to help others. We would like to help ask people to stay, to stay with your families. You might not think your family loves you, but we certainly love him and people throughout the world love him. We wish she were here.

Thank you, Catherine. Appreciate that very much. Mitchell, would you kindly introduce yourself? And then Matthew, if you would do that briefly.

Thank you.

Yeah, I can do that. My name is Mitchell, Mitch Maddox. I was just a missionary in the Alpine German-speaking mission, which includes Austria, Germany, and Switzerland. Um, I got back about a month ago, and now I'm studying pre-business here at BYU.

I can—

pre-business?

Yes.

As a BYU MBA, I'm very curious, personally, from my experience, uh, is that what pre-business means? Is that you're planning on getting an MBA after that?

Yes, I want to study marketing. Of course, I can't say I'm a marketing major yet because I have to be accepted. So pre-business is the appropriate term.

All right.

Well, Matthew, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, my name is Matt Maddox. It sounds like mathematics. Kind of a funny name, but the one my parents gave me and I, I'm the oldest of 4 children. I love my parents very much. Obviously, I'm very sad about the tragedy of my dad's passing, but really grateful for this opportunity to talk openly today about, about suicide and about, you know, how it impacts us. And by no means am I an expert on this, but I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of people and, you know, excited to, to dive a little deeper into this with you all today.

Well, this is not a video podcast, but we can, we can see you even if the listeners can't. And I'm looking at both of you and you both very strongly resemble your father. I feel like I am speaking to your father to some degree. You guys are chips off the old block. Very much.

Hopefully that's a good thing.

I think it is. I think you probably should think it is.

Yeah, I agree with Jim Bennett.

When we were—

before we started recording here, we were talking about— Jim Bennett and I were just sharing our experience with your dad. And I arrived in Scotland, in the Scotland Remission, back in February 1987. And then I, I was there for 2 years, obviously. And then at some point, quite early on, I had the opportunity of meeting with your dad. And later on, I actually had the opportunity of tracting with him, knocking on doors in Edinburgh, actually. At the time, he was the assistant AP. He was serving with Albert Palmer. This is probably in the fall or winter of '87. I remember the time quite well. I've got photographs of him and I, which I can send to you. I can dig out and send to you. But this is before the Christmas of '87 when he and Elder Palmer got dressed up as elves. And all, I think there was 2 or 3 zones there, probably Livingston zone, Jim, that you were in. Livingston was a zone, I think. Edinburgh zone and maybe 2 or 3 mystery zones got together and Elder Palmer and Elder Maddox put on an amazing display of pushing President Banks around the Edinburgh Chapel there during Christmas time. There was tables of food and the bishops were having fun and these two elves showed up with President Banks and they were pushing President Banks around and we were just rolling about with laughter. I've got photographs actually of quite a few photographs of that Christmas event and also I think Prior to that, your dad and I, I was a junior, obviously, he was the assistant at the time. I was in Edinburgh serving with Elder Wellborn. Do you remember him, Jim?

Vaguely. I didn't know him well, but I think—

Arizona. From Arizona. And so, Wellborn went with Palmer and I went with Elder Maddox. And I thought I was bold as a missionary, but Elder Bannocks was incredibly bold. He was amazing on the doors. He was very, I don't know how, I mean, we got in a few of the doors in a fairly short period of time. He was very convincing, very persuasive, very direct. And you couldn't say no. It was extraordinary. But I've never met anyone that was so full of confidence and strength, and he was just inspiring. And, you know, I mentioned earlier that, you know, growing up, I mean, you don't know my background, but I grew up in a dysfunctional family and I struggled early on. And I've talked about this on previous podcasts. I struggled with some type of depression growing up, still challenged with that to some extent now. Low self-esteem, lack of self-confidence. I didn't join the church till I was 16 in England. You know, single-parent family, tough neighborhood, quite dysfunctional, uh, joined the church, went on a mission, and for the first time in my life met individuals who were my age who were, um, seemingly incredibly confident. I think many of us were quite scared or unsure at the time, but Elder Maddox didn't show that. And, uh, but he was, uh, confident. He was absolutely certain about why he was there, what he was doing. Great leader, great communicator, a get-it-done kind of guy, and just very bold and incredibly strong. And I learned so much from him and found him to be an incredible— not just a great missionary, but a great leader. He was a natural on his mission. He was a natural leader, and myself and so many others looked to him for leadership and inspiration. He was mature. He was— a lot of the Mishras that came out were— I was quite mature having gone through what I'd gone through, but a lot of Mishras are not quite ready. You know, it takes them a few months to get into the mission, right? You know, 6 months to kind of mature up and get into it and, you know, learn why they're there. Elder Maddox, I think, was right there from the beginning, from what I heard, and just a great mystery. And I learned so much from him. And I remember how he made me feel. And this is the key thing, and I'll hand some time over to you guys to respond to this. But I remember how he made me feel. You know, in life, we go through life and we meet people, maybe for a short time, maybe for a longer time. And they may, they say things and do things that you might not always remember, but we remember how people make us feel. And Elder Maddox made me feel like I, I could conquer the world. Any doubt or second-guessing or lack of confidence in me was dispelled by him. And he, he always said, Elder Wilkes, you can do this, um, and you know, you could be this and achieve this, etc. And I I believed him and, you know, he was right. He talked to me about, in other missions, about achieving our full potential. So he had quite an impact on me. And Jim, you can share your experiences as well. It's probably in terms of structuring this conversation, or partly, is just sharing with a member of, you know, Mike's family here, our relationship and our experiences with with Mike. So, they're my, they're some of my experiences. I've got many more with him and I'm just grateful that he touched my life in that way. Jim, what was your, as we look at Dale Maddox's life, what's your experience with him?

Well, I met him the day I arrived in Scotland because he and Matt Holland were the two APs when I got there. And my reaction to him was exactly the same as yours. He was brimming with confidence. He was very charismatic. He, you know, I just remember thinking, okay, this is what a missionary is supposed to be. I didn't ever really have an opportunity to go tractoring with him. He was so high above me by the time I got there that I didn't interact. I do remember Christmas morning in 1988, we had all decided to sleep in. I was in Livingston, in the Livingston zone, and we shared our flat with the zone leaders. And it was 6:30 AM and the phone rang and Elder Brush answered the phone and said, oh, hello, Elder Maddox. He's like, don't sleep in, it's, you know, and, but he just, he was just always just so delightful to be around, always so much.

Party.

Just a very gregarious person. And as someone, you know, Ian, you talk about your lack of confidence growing up or struggling with inadequacy. I, in my life, have dealt with depression. I haven't really dealt with suicidality all that much. It's never really come to that. But depression is something that has, has really been part of my family. My, my mother dealt with it rather extensively. My siblings have dealt with it. I've dealt with it. I'm currently on antidepressants. You know, that's something that I would have been really embarrassed to say a few years ago because there's a stigma attached to that. But I think that stigma hopefully is starting to lift because, and I think all of the Maddoxes can speak to this, but it's very important, I believe, that people recognize depression as an illness, just like any other illness. It's an illness like cancer or pneumonia Or do I? We treat it with this kind of stigma. We still have this kind of stigma attached to it. Excuse me. As if it's some kind of moral failing or weakness. And when I was on my mission, I was wildly depressed, particularly for the first 6 months of my mission. And, and I saw it in myself. As a sign of weakness. And I saw it as something that I was doing wrong. If I were a better person, if I were stronger, this depression wouldn't be here. And what's interesting about Elder Maddox and Catherine and Matthew and Mitchell, I'd love you to speak to this, is that you would never have gotten, I certainly never got any indication I didn't know him well enough, perhaps, but I never got any indication at any time when I was around him or with him that this was something he was struggling with, that he put on such a— he was just so confident and so gregarious that you would assume that this was not a problem for him. And I think that that's somewhat commonplace for people who deal with depression because it's not something— it's not like a, you know, it's not like an open wound. It's not something you can see. It's something that people who deal with depression very often go to great lengths to hide, to conceal. And so I want to turn the time over to the Maddoxes to answer that. Have you gotten that kind of reaction from people when they've said, geez, we had no idea?

We, we have gotten that kind of reaction and it's actually kind of surprising because I really don't think we were hiding anything, but I think Mike was, um, trying to serve others. And so in the act of serving and reaching out to others to help them, I don't think that's when you explain to people all your issues. But I certainly was aware of his struggles and knew it was really hard for him. He had to go to bed early. He needed, you know, I just admire him for waking up every morning and doing and getting up and doing the duties of, you know, a father to take care of the home and provide. And he did this anyway. Although it was hard for him. And I don't know if a lot of people could see that. His, his depression was seasonal, so he would have a lot of energy in the summer and not so much in the winter and fall.

That's interesting.

So the snow starts to fall and sort of a gloom would It's more the darkness.

The darkness.

Yeah, so like it would happen around his birthday in October, um, but when they changed the daylight savings time to November, then, you know, it stretched more to there that, you know, he would end up— but he had medications and, um, I don't know how well he felt, but it was helping, you know. Us around him. I certainly think that, you know, the family all knew, um, and probably even our exchange students that lived with us. But, um, yeah, he would definitely hide out in the wintertime, and of course a lot of people do here in Utah. So, you know, I guess that makes it so people don't realize as much.

Well, Matt, but to your point, I, I think that, you know, for a lot of people, this was a big surprise for my dad. And I would even say myself included. I knew that my dad had struggled with depression. A few years ago, I experienced depression for the first time, and I had shared that with my dad, and he kind of opened up to me and said, hey, yeah, I was about your age when I first started feeling depression. As well. And so we had several conversations about that. But, you know, to all the friends, the neighbors, the coworkers, my dad was someone that was very happy and outgoing and excited to be around. You know, that boisterous voice that woke you up on Christmas morning is a boisterous voice that would walk into every meeting or, you know, every, you know, everywhere that he went, he, he carried that boisterous voice with him, and usually with a smile. And so I think that that's something that's important for, you know, people to understand. And something that I want to talk about is that, you know, depression doesn't always look like a hunched over, gloomy person. Depression can, can look very different for a lot of people. And for myself, I, you know, I am a very outgoing person as well. I like to go to parties, I like to talk with people. But for me, when I first recognized that, hey, there was something wrong, was, you know, we went to a— my wife and I went to a party. And I didn't want to introduce her to all of my work friends. I just— there's something that it just felt different. I didn't want to do the things that I usually do. And my wife kind of looked at me and said, what's wrong with you? And for my dad, there were things like that where, you know, there are some things that it's like, yeah, like, you know, he's there, he's got that boisterous voice, but he's not as, you know, as excited as usual. But I think that he did a pretty good job of, in a sense, hiding it. And, you know, it's, it's interesting that You know, my dad would reach out to people and he would call people and he would keep in touch with people. And it was really cool at his funeral to, you know, learn of all these people that my dad would reach out to regularly and keep in touch with and, and left an impact on. But it was saddening to learn, you know, in the note that he left behind that he had struggled with suicidal thoughts. For over 20 years. And that was something that I didn't know about. Like, I knew we had talked about depression, but— and we talked about suicide. I, you know, I— there are several different experiences that our families had with suicide, with just different people that we know and love that, you know, have died by suicide. I remember a few summers ago, He was talking about one of his mission companions who, who came home and died by suicide. And so we had had several conversations about this, but I never asked him directly if he had ever had suicidal thoughts. And, you know, I wish that I would have.

Well, it's always difficult when you look at these kind of circumstances because, because everybody starts saying, 'If only I had done this, if only I had done that.' I mean, is that stuff that's gone through your brain?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that that is— it's very normal. It's a normal response that people have when they have someone they love that dies by suicide. To think, 'Oh, well, I should have been there, I should have called them.' I want to be very, um, you know, fragile in the way that I talk about this because I do believe that every, every suicide is different. Um, everyone has a unique story. Um, but, you know, for my dad, um, I believe that, you know, for 20 years he said that this was something that he struggled with, and, and there were a lot of days that myself or other people that know and love him. They did those, oh, I should have done that. They did those things for over 20 years to help him continue to press on a little further. And, you know, if, if you have those feelings of, oh, well, I should have done this, you know, those feelings don't help. They don't help you. In the end, this is a decision that they made. You know, albeit a bad decision that has, you know, leaves a wake of victims behind it. But this was a decision that they made. And, you know, there, there are a million things that we could always say that we should have done, but that's not going to help any of us to continue forward. What we should do is, you know, we should reach out to our friends, we should reach out to the people we love and say, hey, you know, I heard about this family whose father died by suicide. And I just want to talk with you a little bit about this. Is this something that you've— have you ever had suicidal thoughts before? Have you ever felt like hurting yourself before? If this becomes something that you're feeling, please talk with me about it. You're somebody that I love and I care about. You know, let's, let's talk about this so that when isolating feelings come of self-harm, that, you know, we can work together and work through this because you're somebody that I love and I care about. And, you know, unfortunately, depression and suicide is something that's becoming more and more prevalent in our day. You know, Jim, you talk about how it's an illness. And, you know, I really do believe that this is a mental illness that unfortunately plagues us. And, you know, you may be thinking to yourself, well, I've never had a lot of experience with suicide. I don't know anyone that has died by suicide, or— but I promise you, you know, if you don't feel those feelings of self-harm, there's a good chance that there's somebody that you love that does, but they're not talking about it. So what I really hope is that people will take our story and use this as an opportunity to start a conversation with the people that they love. And to lean into that, to not be afraid to have a direct conversation about it. Um, you know, I, I've found even with facing my own depression, the more I talk about it vocally and share with other people that I'm experiencing depression, that the easier it becomes for me to overcome it. And I think that the same thing goes for having conversations around suicide and suicide prevention. The more we get better at talking about it, the better we're going to be at helping other people make it through it.

I really appreciate you sharing that. I want to bring Mitchell in here, and I know, Mitchell, you have to leave here pretty quickly, but I just recall at the funeral you spoke at the funeral. You actually come home from your mission or taken a break from your mission to come home and speak at the funeral and gave a very, very powerful address. And I just can't imagine what that must have been like for you. Can you share a little bit about that?

Um, yeah, I can share a little bit about that. And of course, after I say this, I'll have to go. But first, I want to answer your first question about if I expected it, or if I had the experience that other people didn't expect it. And I feel like anyone outside of the family didn't expect it at all. There's a lot of things that happened within our family that kind of led up to this and led to his decision. And for me, I was on the other side of the world for 2 years, and my only interaction with them was a phone call once a week. And I would say the first half of my mission, there was a very distinct difference in the phone call. Between the second half, where in the first half he was extremely invested in the conversation, he would talk. And in the second half, which is when I think— I don't know what happened there. But somewhere in the second half of my mission, he started becoming a little more distant. And during the calls, he didn't interact that much. And if I wanted an interaction from him, Um, I would have to call him one-on-one or write him one-on-one, um, to get that answer. And for me, not knowing all the things that were happening at the time and not knowing how everything was playing together, it was an extreme shock for me. Um, and it was really, really hard. Um, And there's something that I actually wrote down about something you guys talked about earlier, where the view of suicide and depression stems more into a mental illness. And the way people see mental illnesses is like someone dying from a heart attack or someone dying from— like, the paradigm, the perception is shifting. And for me, myself, at first, when I, when I heard, I was really angry. I was really angry at my dad. I thought, I come home in 4 months. He decided to leave before I could see him. Like, that was a decision he made. I was very angry. And I kind of had to digest a lot of emotions within a very short amount of time. And within 24 hours, my perspective changed. It went from, man, I can't believe that he did this, to, you know, if he died from a heart attack, I wouldn't be mad at him right now. And I could see that paradigm shift within myself that I saw this. I saw my dad as someone who was sick instead of someone who, who transgressed, someone who did something they weren't supposed to do. I saw him as someone who was struggling. And gave into a struggle. And that personally helped me a lot for forgiveness. So to the people who are out there trying to forgive someone for doing this, looking at them as someone who's struggling is probably the best way to look at them. And my experience with coming home, I like— there's a lot of stories I can talk about. But about 8 months into my mission, I had a dream. And it was a recurring dream. And it was a really hard time in my mission. And I really did not enjoy it. And every day, for probably 2 or 3 months, I would think, man, home would be pretty good right now. This really sucks. Um, and every time I had that, I would pray., and then I would have this dream. And this dream changed, but the concept of the dream was the same. I would be leaving my mission before my mission was supposed to be over. And at different— in different dreams, I came to different realizations at different parts. But it started with me about to board an airplane going home. And then I would think, No, my mission isn't, my mission isn't done yet. I need to stay. And I'm just crying really hard. And then the dreams would continue different nights, I would be on the plane. And then in the flight, I would realize I'm not done yet. I need to go back. And the dreams would continue. And it was kind of like they were adding on to each other. And then one of the final dreams that I had, I made it home. I was in Salt Lake City, and I hugged my mom. I looked at her and cried and said, I need to go back home. And home was my mission. I, I thought then when I had that dream, I was like, okay, that's obvious. I need to stay on the mission. That's my answer. I'm going to push through this and it's going to get better. And it did get better. And that area is now one of my favorite areas. And I was there for 9 months. And that last 6 months of that area were some of my favorite months of my mission. But this goes back into when I was coming home. Because I found myself in the shoes that I had in my dream, where I would be in the airport. About to go to my gate crying, thinking I'm not done. I cannot leave. And then I would be on the plane. I cried. And I wanted to go back. And then when I saw my mom, I hugged her and told her I need to go back home. And it was really surreal to actually live through that experience. Um, and for me, it was much different from the rest of my family. I cannot say what happened for them, but I can say what happened for me. And it was a process where I had to rely on Jesus Christ to overcome the challenges that I had to face because of this. I had to choose how I was going to react, and I had to choose if I was going to progress or if I was going to stay there and play the victim and be okay with stopping, stopping there and just being done. Um, and I chose to progress. I chose to help other people. And I chose to meet this challenge with Christ. Um, and that was probably the hardest thing that I'd ever done, to come home and talk to people, hear so many things about my dad, see so many friends that I haven't seen in so long, see my family, and then go back. To go back home. That's home. That, that my mission is home. And go back to work and teach the gospel. There was nothing like coming back to my last companion. We were companions for 4 and a half months, and we just worked as hard as we could. And We made a difference in that part of the world. And I feel a large reason why that is, is because I decided that I'm not stopping here. Something my mission president said is, you, you had every excuse to finish. So what you had, every under— every person's understanding, if you chose to finish the mission, but you chose to stay. I could have chosen to go home. But that's kind of something that I've been focusing on a lot lately is the power of choice. We choose what we do, we choose if we're going to check up on someone, we choose if we are going to have that hard conversation. And Matthew and I actually had that hard conversation yesterday, where he asked that to me. If I personally ever struggled with depression or suicide. And, you know, it's awkward. But those awkward conversations are going to be more worth it in the end. Because they help. And I had a really, really strong overwhelming feeling to call my dad at the pretty much exact time that he was going to kill himself. It wasn't a P-day, so I didn't do it. But I had the feeling. And I'm not going to say I wish I did that. But it does help me know that God is innately aware of our situation. That he was telling me, hey, something's gonna go wrong. Something's happening. And that kind of helped me prepare for the news the next morning as well. Um, well, that's a little bit of my perspective. I'm actually going to have to run the class now. Um, thank you guys so much for having me on the podcast and listening to my words.

Mitch, thank you so much. I know it's not easy to share these things. Same with you, Lathran, and, and Catherine. I can't imagine how difficult it is. You have to go this very moment. I did have one last question, but if you have to go, I completely respect your, uh, I can also be late to class. Oh, okay. You go. Mitch, did you say you could be late or you can't be late?

I can be.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I want to hear one question, if I may, while you're here with us. And again, thank you for being so brave and sharing your thoughts and feelings. Have you had these impressions while you're on your mission you had these impressions, even at the very, at the very time or moment, you know, when that event was happening with your father, with your dad. And this is a question for everybody. If you could answer it first, Mitch, I'll be grateful. What impressions have you had, or experiences, or spiritual insights, or inspiration have you had since, you know, this event that happened in your life? Have you had those inspirations continued in that way? And have you received any inspiration, guidance, direction, and insights into the experience, you know, after the event? If you could, if you could speak to that, if you have any experiences?

Yeah, I would say that the spirit has been a lot more vocal. In the communications. Because I would always have feelings over my mission. But once that happened, the spirits gone into more vocalized form of communication. And like the day, the day after, something that I was really worried about was if my dad was going to be okay. If he was down forever, or what feeling that I should have. Because I didn't know. And I remembered praying about it, and then having a very distinct remembrance of the scripture that I read right before I found out that my dad had died, which was 2 Nephi 25:13. And specifically the words, all who believed on him, on his name, will be saved in the kingdom of God. And that, that comforted me and told me that it would be okay. That, that witness of that made my view shift from I don't know if I'm going to see my dad again to I'm going to see my dad again, and we will have an eternal family. And that was my personal witness of that. And also, at BYU, I've had many, many feelings when it's come to my calling as well, where I'll have spiritual insights. I'm the ward mission leader. And I'll have ideas that come to my head that I'm like, okay, that's actually a really good thing to do as a ward mission leader inside of a young single adult ward in Heritage Halls where there's not too many people that need converting. Um, and I don't know, the Spirit has been very merciful, I would say, and the way that he's been communicating to me has been very direct. And every feeling that I've had concerning my dad has been a comforting one. And I don't know, does that answer your question?

It does. And I'm so, so grateful. And our listeners will be so grateful to hear that as well. Mitch, thank you so much. We extend our love to you. It was an honor to meet you. And your dad, I know, is very, very proud of you. And, um, and, and you will continue, no doubt, to feel those inspirations and those confirmations. And I have absolutely no doubt, and I feel the spirit here in this meeting, in this conversation, that your dad is in a good place, a great place. And absolutely, you will be, and you are, and you will be an eternal family. And I, I believe that, um, independently, and I feel that here in this conversation. Thank you so much for joining us and being so courageous with your thoughts and feelings. And it's been an honor. Thank you.

Thank you, Mitchell. Thanks very much.

All right.

See you guys.

See you, Mitch. And if I may ask that question of you, Catherine, and you, Matthew, any— you know, this is a major event in your family. And it, it, uh, sounds like it's, uh, brought you closer together. You know, you need each other. You've come through this independently, you've come through this together as a, as a family. Um, can you, if, if you're comfortable, uh, with this question, could you share any thoughts or insights or any experiences that you've had since the, uh, uh, you know, the, the event, uh, in, in a way maybe that Mitch has had, but your experiences may be similar or maybe different. Could you speak to those inspirations or those insights if you're comfortable?

Um, yes, a week before this all happened, I, I actually had a dream as well, and it— I won't share specifically what the dream was about, but, um, it was a, it, it was a warning pretty much, but not specifically that this was going to happen. Um, I kind of believed that I was warned, but not warned to stop it. Um, and not meaning that was okay what he did, but, um, after that, you know, I, I prayed and I tried to receive revelation. I know we were getting ready for conference that week and I like to go back and listen to the other conferences. So I was doing a lot of that. And anyway, there's just an extreme pressure in our household. We just both felt it. One thing that we always do in the mornings, and we've done this with all our kids and our exchange students, is to read the scriptures and to pray. And it was very sweet doing it together. And it's actually the last thing that we did together. And he said the prayer, and it's the time that I miss him the most. But I feared every day that this might happen, that if I go and, you know, I tried to work from home as much as I could, but if I went into work, that I I might come home. And, um, when it did happen, I felt, um, well, this is the day. And I never really believed that he would actually go through with it. Um, but I think that thinking back on that, I think a person, you know, he was taking a new medication um, for his heart because he got COVID and his heart had become damaged. And the doctor was working with him, but it just— in addition to all the other mental illness and things that happened, this— the winter being what it was, where it was— oh, it's summer now, but now it's winter again. You know, that whole— this whole year during— I don't know if anybody else noticed it, but I certainly did. It just makes a person with these kind of feelings go from depression to, you know, excitement or whatever. Anyway, I felt a peace. I felt a peace that he's okay. When I go and that time in the morning, I feel close to him even though he's not here. I feel like he's with family members. He's with, you know, people that have passed on. My parents, his father, his brother, people on the other side who will help him and guide him. I believe in a life hereafter. I believe in second chances. I'm your family history mat, the ward. That you stay away from. But, um, anyway, I believe that God will fight our battles and he will fight our children's battles and he will fight our grandchildren's battles. And he— regardless of what we do, we have the Atonement and we can repent. Whether we talk about whether this was, you know, a transgression or not, Um, we all have second chances, even those who— this is why the temple work is done for people who have gone on. God gives everyone second chances, and we know about baptisms for the dead and the preaching of the gospel on the other side. And I just believe that life continues. I do worry that he regrets it. I think people who have attempted suicide do regret it, you know, when they fail, and, um, they do regret they trying. And I think that, you know, he's missing out on his grandchildren and his children and all these wonderful moments. We just celebrated another birthday. And The grandchildren just loved him. But ever since that day, I have felt peace. I know that through the Atonement that we can be healed. I know that he can be healed. Life isn't over. And I believe in a God that, that loves us dearly. If we, if we knew how much God loved us Um, he's gonna love somebody who has cancer just as much as he has somebody that has mental illness. He knows what we're going through, and, um, he knows what our struggles are, and he knows our heart. And I just want to say, with Mike, he served people. He was a great ministering brother. He was friends to all the people He helped so many people and so many people were devastated for his— and I really believe that to the world, um, he's one person, but to us, he's our world. And we'll greatly miss him and we wish that he had— we could have done something or whatever, but I really believe that I did everything I could have done. So I'm thankful for this opportunity to tell you all this.

But we're so grateful for your willingness to share it. I think it's going to be very helpful to a, a great number of people. Um, it, you know, it, it— this is such a personal and devastating experience, and the fact that you're willing to be open about it and you're willing to share the pain but also the comfort that you felt as you've, as you've reached out to God for assistance, for, you know, you have the promise in the scriptures that the Holy Ghost is a comforter. And in all of your— as Mitch was talking, Matt, as you've been talking, and Katherine as well, it sounds like the Spirit has done a great deal to sustain you through this. And I'm very interested actually you know, this podcast, we focus on, on things that have to do with the church. Has the church's reaction been helpful and positive? Have you and, and Matt, maybe you can speak to this as well. I'm very interested to hear if— because I know, like when I was at the funeral and Ian and I talked about this in our previous podcast, Matt Holland, who presided at the funeral and spoke at the funeral, talked about the idea and reinforced the idea that suicide is a transgression. And, you know, I just have a very serious problem with that idea because when you talk about suicide, because I know historically the church has talked about suicide and sort of talked about it as being on par with murder. And I think the mentality that goes into murder, where you're trying to kill somebody to get gain, as the scriptures talk about it, is miles, light years, 180 degrees away from the mentality of somebody who is suffering from the illness of depression and suicide as a response to that. So I don't know if that's too loaded a question, but—

I really believe that it doesn't matter if it was a transgression. This is up to God. We all transgress every day. We all need the Atonement of our Heavenly Father. We all do this. If we don't admit it, we're lying. And, you know, this is our story and It is part of who we are. It's personal. It's gut-wrenching. But I believe that God makes things right. And I believe, I hope that through my love that he can make it and be with us again. And that it will be allowed. And I really feel like he's okay. I don't want people to go away thinking that it's okay to do this. It would have been a lot better off if we had been able to get him off this medication or, you know, do something different. There were a lot of different options. But I don't worry about the church's response or their stand. And for me personally, I know how much he served others. And I think that God looks on the heart.

Matt, you want to speak to that a little bit?

Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up, Jim. And listening to the podcast you did shortly after the funeral, you guys talked, you know, a lot about, you know, this comment that was made about suicide being a transgression. And first, I would love to just say, you know, we love and respect Matthew Holland. I was actually named after Matthew, and we are grateful to him for coming and speaking at the funeral, um, and coming and visiting with our family. Um, my dad was a convert to the church, and, uh, my— none of his family has, has joined the church, um, but, uh, Matthew came, uh, with his wife Paige. Um, I guess I should refer to him as Elder Holland. And they came and visited our home and visited with our family. And my grandma, who is not a member of the Church, was particularly touched that he, as a busy leader of the Church, would take the time to come in and comfort us and share scriptures and mourn with our family. And so I want to just, you know, thank Elder Holland for coming and speaking. I initially, you know, at the funeral, I spoke pretty directly about my dad dying by suicide. And I addressed that. And my brother addressed it quite openly. And then, you know, Elder Holland spoke about how suicide Um, is a transgression. And initially I was taken aback by that, um, and a little bothered, to be honest. Um, I don't know if you guys have reviewed this or not. However, in the Church, um, Gospel Library app, under the topics and questions section, there's a topic on suicide. And if you go through and read that, um, it doesn't mention anything about suicide being a transgression. Now, I know that there are other quotes from previous church leaders who talk very— there's a lot of hell and damnation associated with suicide in some of these older quotes from church leaders. And I'd just like to share that, you know, in, in this church, we believe in living prophets who receive revelation for today, and the publications that come out from the church in modern days are the ones that we follow. And so I would encourage everybody to go through and read this topic in Topics and Questions, suicide topic in the Gospel Library app, to understand what the church's stance on this is. Now, when it comes to the question of suicide and transgression, specifically, I came to the realization— and, and, you know, when you asked about spiritual impressions, this is one of the ones that I actually wanted to share. Um, I came to the realization that, you know, whether suicide is something that, um, you know, is a transgression or not, we all transgress. Are we not all sinners? And each one of us, as we die, we will have a need to repent for something. There's something in our lives that we need the Atonement of Jesus Christ for. And to me, whether suicide is a transgression or not, it, it doesn't matter when you think about the all-encompassing, all-encompassing power of the Atonement. In the— in that section that I mentioned about suicide in the Gospel Library app, there's a line that says, although it is wrong to take one's own life, a person who does not— a person who does so may not be responsible for his or her actions. Only God can fully understand and judge the situation. And I really believe that. I believe that God understands the complications of medicine, like my mother mentioned. I believe that God understands the mental state and capacity that my dad was at, as you know, he was facing this act of suicide. And I believe that God knows my dad. I don't believe that my dad should be, you know, forever remembered as the guy that died by suicide. I believe that my dad should be remembered as the guy in this ward that took care of widows. And he served other people. He made people laugh. You know, he, it The story of my dad and Brett Palmer carrying around the mission president in a wheelbarrow, that does not surprise me in the least. That is something that, you know, I mean, even a few days before he died, we had an Easter egg hunt that he would hide large prizes in Easter eggs. And so even as adult children, we were very invested to, you know, get the prizes in the Easter eggs and He said this year that we couldn't use anything besides our own hands to get the Easter eggs. And he hid an Easter egg in a pile of dog poop. And I reached my hand in there knowing there could be a $50 bill in that Easter egg. And he laughed and said, Matthew, I knew you would do it.

I knew you'd be the one.

And, you know, I open it up and to my dismay, there's only a dollar in there.

And he says, the best dollar I ever spent.

And, you know, here, this was, this was 4 days before my dad died by suicide. And, you know, he was someone that he liked to joke and he liked to have a good time. Couple other thoughts I'd like to share.

Please.

Just along the lines of spiritual impressions that I've had dealing with the aftermath of my dad's death. I want to thank all of the Scotland Edinburgh missionaries.

Yes.

I, I was particularly touched by their generosity and kindness and their willingness to show up for him. And I want to applaud and encourage all those who attend their mission reunions. I know that, you know, every year there was a Scotland mission reunion, and I know that was something that my dad looked forward to go to. It was something that happened regularly. And I know that to the listeners of this podcast, Your— the varying degrees of commitment to the Church and activity in the Church may vary, but I want to encourage all those who have the opportunity to go to a mission reunion, whether you consider yourself an active member of the Church or maybe even someone who chooses to not associate with the Church, I want to encourage each of you to take advantage of that opportunity to attend your mission reunions. You spent 2 years of your lives, you know, working as a missionary of Jesus Christ. And that shared experience is something that only you know and the people that you served with know and understand. You know, what it was like to, you know, live in a flat in Edinburgh, and, you know, to be yelled at and, you know, cursed at. And, you know, regardless of your association of the church, I would encourage you to, you know, attend those mission reunions. The group of people that you were out on that mission with, it's a— it's— you share a special bond. And I just want to thank the Scotland Edinburgh Missionaries because my dad was a convert to the church. And when he left on his mission, there was not full support from his family. And it was a risk for him that, you know, he wasn't sure exactly what his family situation would be like when he got home because he made this decision. And he found a new family. With the Scotland Edinburgh Mission. And so I want to thank the missionaries and thank them for their continual support to our family. A couple other things to share. I remember growing up, my dad, you know, you guys talk about how my dad was such a you know, really bold and exciting person to be around. And he was also kind of a hard-ass, especially if you were his child. And, you know, as a teenager— no, what was that, Mom?

It's hard to tell him no, as he was saying.

Yeah, it was hard to tell him no. And he didn't like it when you told him no. Especially when you were a kid. But I remember as a teenager, there would be times when I would be kind of in conflict with my dad, and my dad would say something like, well, so a little context, his— my dad's father died before I was born. And I never got to meet him. But there would be times when my dad and I would be working together, and he would say something like, you know, I wish that I could call my dad and ask him a question. I wish I could do this. And I, as a teenager, was kind of a little annoyed and was like, what the heck, you're trying to manipulate me into, you know, spending time with you here. But as I grew and matured and got older, I would think about him saying, you know, I wish that I could call my dad and ask him questions. And I took advantage of that. And I called him and I asked him a lot of questions.. And the week after he died, and I kept on thinking to myself, you know, Dad, what the heck? Like, I, I wasn't ready to be done asking you questions. Wasn't ready to be done. And, you know, I was mowing the lawn, and I had an experience where the wheel of my lawnmower popped off, and I was really mad. And said all the swear words my dad taught me to say, and, you know, went and got my ratchet and put that wheel back on the lawn mower and started mowing again. And a couple of minutes later, the same wheel falls off and I'm super upset and I get my ratchet out and this time I kind of inspect the wheel a little closer and I look at, you know, what's going on and why is this falling off and see if anything's stripped. I put in that wheel, ratcheted down, and as I'm ratcheting it down, I realize, or I have this voice, and it's my dad's voice. And it says, Matthew, I taught you to do this. And I'm going to teach you to do more things. And, you know, I felt his presence that day. I felt, you know, that my dad is an angel now watching after us. And, you know, when it comes to that question of transgression, you know, to be an angel, I believe that you have to repent. And I believe that God will know, you know, all of our transgressions. And I believe that, you know, that repentance may work a little faster than we may give God credit for. And I really do believe that my dad is an angel watching over us now. But the other realization I had of this was my dad had been waiting a long time to ask his dad those questions, questions that my dad had told me all of my life that he wished that he could ask his dad. And now he's reunited with his dad. He's able to ask him those questions. I think that's one of the most beautiful things about the gospel of Jesus Christ is knowing and understanding that those that we love are people that we're going to be able to be with again. That death is not eternal, but life is eternal. The last thing that I want to share of a spiritual impression that has been left upon our family is to expect miracles. Expect miracles. President Nelson said this in a general conference talk a few years ago. And my family, just my wife and my children, we've been through a lot this year. Obviously, my dad's death was kind of the, the biggest event. However, there were many different challenges and things that we faced this year. And every time that we faced a challenge, this message of expect miracles would pop up in our lives. One of the biggest miracles is that we, we moved a couple months before my dad died. The night before we moved in, a young man in our neighborhood died by suicide. It was tragic. We showed up to our first Sunday at church. And the ward is mourning. And our bishop, I was amazed with the effort that he put in to be prepared to talk about suicide. And he spent 40 minutes speaking in sacrament meeting. And we're grateful to this family for their vulnerability to share and allow the bishop to address this publicly. But because of those conversations that were had that day, and in the second hour, the bishop had prepared for two professional counselors to come in and talk about suicide, talk about grief and moving forward. Because of the conversations that were had that day, 6 weeks later, when my family goes through this, we were much better prepared to go through this. So when you ask, you know, how was the response of the church? It was incredible. And it was because people were willing to be vulnerable, to share their experience with suicide. Our ward had just gone through this 6 weeks earlier. And we were brand new to this ward. We moved here, not knowing that we needed this support system, not knowing that we would have this support system. But I really do believe that it was a miracle from God that we have this support system. A couple days after my dad died, this family whose son died show up on our porch, ready to cry, ready to mourn with us. And just give us a hug that nobody knows what this is like. Until you're going through it. There are other friends that we've had whose brothers have died by suicide, whose fathers have died by suicide, who reached out to us and put an arm around us and cried with us. And we are so, so grateful And we hope that our story will help others who are struggling, who are loving somebody who struggles. And, but the number one message that I want to share with people is to expect miracles. There's a God who loves you. He knows what you're going through. As you turn to him in faith, You can expect miracles in your life.

That's— thank you, Catherine. Go ahead, Catherine.

I, um, he made me think about, you know, the answer to the question of the church response. I would change that to the church members' response, our ward members here. You know, a lot of people have said to me, we don't know what to do, but they do know how to help. They reach out and they have— I have felt this great love in every person that has reached out. You know, do they always say exactly the right thing? You know, it really doesn't matter. They're reaching out. And they're showing that they love our family. And I couldn't live in a better place. I couldn't be with better people. I couldn't feel more love from our Heavenly Father through our church members than I do now. And it's the thing that helps you, right? Just like the Scotland Edinburgh Mission all coming together and paying for the bagpiper at the funeral. And it was just so generous and kind, everything that all of you have done. Really appreciated.

Catherine, thank you so much. Matt, thank you so much as well for, um, sharing your thoughts and feelings. You as well. Not easy to do that. Um, and I know, uh, this will help so many of our listeners out there and, you know, people out there that will hear this, you know, this experience. As I've— I'm included. I've learned so much. I've been touched by the spirit on this meeting. It's been hard to hold back my emotions. And just for a few moments, if I may, I, you know, Jim's talked about some of his struggles. I've had maybe different similar struggles. I don't know. But I find it hard to talk about my feelings, you know, when I'm depressed or down. When you mentioned earlier, Catherine, about the seasonal changes, and Matt, I remember you saying at the beginning that I listened to what you said. He said every suicide is different. The seasons affect me. You know, we're in Canada. In Canada, we have long winters in Canada, as you know.

Right.

You know, the snow here can just— the winter seems endless. And there is a correlation, I think, between depression and, you know, light and darkness, for sure. And when we were talking back and forth with Jim Bennett on the Messenger there, I struggled to talk about my feelings, my thoughts, my, you know, struggles coming from the UK, you know, British. The UK British way of doing things is to hold your feelings in. Don't talk about that. It's actually seen as a weakness, actually, to talk about your feelings. There's a stigma about if you talk about depression or you're struggling with something, you're weak and you're not strong. And, and, you know, shame on you for not being strong. You should be strong and you're not. What's the problem? It's your fault, right? Where what we're talking about is something beyond our control. And Matt, you talked about the— you quoted there from the church website, and I just want to just kind of quote something from that same section on the church website. It says, 'Most people who have thought about suicide do not want to die. They simply want to find relief from physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual pain that they're going through.' even righteous people such as Paul had despaired events in his life. And it didn't reference Job, but I can imagine Job, with all the things that he went through, probably had similar experiences, similar thoughts and feelings. And when they felt weighed down in deep distress, nevertheless, in times of trouble, like Nephi and Alma, in whom they trusted, they found that God hath been support in trials and troubles of every kind. Speaking to Jim Bennett's point about the spirit being there. And then later on, it says, obviously, we do not know the full circumstances around every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details. And it is he who will alone judge our actions here on earth. When he does judge us, I will feel he will take all things into consideration— our genetic chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth. And so, you know, as Jim talks about, you know, the stigma, and you, Matt and Kathy, you talk about your experience here, and I'm grateful to hear that the members have rallied around you and the missionaries have rallied around you to help and support. And Jim, this is another of the many examples where the church is at its best. When a family is in crisis, is in a new ward, is desperate for help, um, and the ward and the bishop, uh, extends— and the Spirit extends mercy and love and rallies around your family. And I'm so grateful actually to, to, to hear that. But I, I, I, I just going back to what I was saying, and as we probably go into the final part of our conversation here, um, as I've struggled to talk about things, and I actually don't talk about stuff, I I, I don't, I can't bring myself to talk about stuff. I just, it's a block. I don't know why, um, I've got that. Um, I'm very private, very personal, you know. Sometimes I'm up, sometimes I'm down. If I'm down, I, I pretend I'm, I'm up, you know. Is that, there's that thing that, you know, um, to, to keep, you've got to fake it. And so, you know, you're supposed to be happy, you're supposed to be confident, you're supposed to be successful, you're supposed to be this this person. If you're a father, you're supposed to be that strength, um, for your kids all the time. I've got kids, Jim Bennett's got kids. I don't want my kids to know if I'm struggling on stuff like this, right? I've not had any suicidal thoughts, but I have had, you know, bouts of depression, and I don't want my kids to know that, or my family, because I, I don't want them to worry. I don't want them to, uh, think I'm you know, not strong enough, that I'm not providing, I'm not a strength, because they look to me as an example, and I'm supposed to be this strength all the time. I'm supposed, you know, that the father, uh, you know, the mother is supposed to be this unwavering, consistent strength, always steady, always. And that is just not, for me at least, is just not real, my real life. You know, I have ups and downs. And Jim, you, you can, you jump in before I, after I ask this question of Catherine and Matt. But I guess my question is, what, from your experience and your perspective, which I'm so grateful to hear, what advice or other advice or counsel would you give someone, a man, a male perhaps, who can't talk about these things, who are struggling?

Yeah.

And so, but Jim, before Martin and Catherine, uh, responds to that, um, do you have any thoughts, um, from your perspective? And, you know, how are we supposed to be as a dad and all this pressure to, to, you know, to be a certain way? And it's hard. Do you find it hard to open up and, and talk about stuff like this?

Oh, sure, sure. I, I mean, I, I, again, I've dealt with depression pretty much my entire life. I didn't really even know what it was. Didn't really have a name for it while I was growing up, you know, and, and I was voted class clown of the Calabasas High School class of 1986, and I was senior class president, you know, and, and so I had this sort of reputation as being this sort of gregarious, outgoing guy, kind of different, I think, from, from Mike Maddox. Uh, I certainly wasn't the gardener. Than Mike Maddox was. I remember hearing at the funeral just how wonderful he was at that, and I have absolutely no capacity in that regard whatsoever. But I don't think people who knew me growing up would have known that I was battling that. And the idea of admitting that as an adolescent, but particularly, Ian, as you say, you know, as a father, as an adult, as someone who's supposed to be the breadwinner, who's supposed to be the preside over the household. I mean, all of the kinds of expectations that are placed on men, particularly in the church. You know, we are told, uh, and it causes controversy in terms of, you know, the temple covenants have been altered in order to be more inclusive to women, but the expectation is that the man is the rock the husband, the father, he's the guy that never wavers. And if you wake up in the morning and you hate being alive and you look out and go, how the heck am I going to get through another day of this? That is the last thing in the world that you feel like you could admit to anybody else, that you can speak about that. I mean, the idea of speaking about that even to, you know, to the people I love in intimate one-on-one. That was terrifying to me. The idea of standing in front of a congregation the way that Matthew, you, and Mitchell did and talking about this at the funeral. I mean, that for most of my life was just— I couldn't fathom that kind of courage, that kind of bravery. And the fact that we are speaking about this now, I think it's, it's too little, too late for Mike, but hopefully it's not too little, too late for anybody else that is struggling with this, that they need to know that they are loved not just by the people who love them, but by a God who loves them. They need to know that their life has purpose, their life has value and that they are loved infinitely. And that's something that when we talk about depression, when we talk about mental illness, that's something that in the church we are only, I think, starting to do that as well as we need to. I remember Matt Holland's father, Elder Jeffrey Holland, giving a talk about mental illness and depression in conference.. And it was so groundbreaking because it was something that just had never been discussed. I mean, when I was on my mission, I remember listening to Elder Gene R. Cook talk about his— it's the talk where he talks about meeting Mick Jagger on an airplane. I'm going to set that aside. But he talks— he starts, he says, I want to talk about despair. And I remember listening to it going, oh, geez, this is helpful because I'm I'm more often in despair than I would ever admit. And he quotes the Book of Mormon where the Book of Mormon says, despair cometh because of iniquity. And he's talking— I mean, that quote comes from the despair of the Nephite soldiers who were so wicked at the end of the Book of Mormon. And his whole talk was that all despair is rooted somehow in iniquity. And I found that so discouraging and so painful and really so wrong. I'm sorry to beat up on, on Elder Cook for that, but that was the only kind of messaging you got 35 years ago was, I mean, the message implicit or explicit was if you're depressed, if you're suicidal, uh, you're weak. You're wrong. Just stop. I mean, to tell someone to just stop being depressed is like telling some— in my mind, it's like telling someone to just stop having cancer. This is a physical ailment. This is an illness. And it is not a sign of weakness. It is not a sign of sin. You know, we've heard over and over again just what a magnificent human being Mike Maddox was in terms of his ability to serve others, in his commitment to the church. I don't know anybody that doubted Mike Maddox's testimony or his love for the gospel, his love for the Savior. The only reason he would do this is because He had an illness. And this, you know, when my mother was going through depression, my mother had twins. My youngest sisters were twins, and she suffered the severe postpartum depression that left her pretty much incapacitated for about a year, maybe a year and a half. And she has since talked to me about it. And she said that her doctor at that time said to her, depression always ends. Sometimes it ends with suicide. Other times it ends when we get enough treatment and it's— and we're able to cure it or we're able to at least put it in remission. And I don't know if I necessarily believe that because I still struggle with depression, even though I wouldn't say my depression has ended. And certainly Mike Maddox's depression lasted for, for a very long time, but we can deal with it. We can. And I think the best way to deal with it is to be open about it, is to be able to discuss it and acknowledge it and treat it with as much legitimacy as we treat physical, other physical illnesses. Because I believe this is a physical illness. I believe this is an imbalance in the brain. I mean, I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I can't diagnose what the physics of it are. But it is a physical illness, and to treat it as a sign of weakness is just as stupid as treating cancer or pneumonia or any other physical illness as a sign of weakness, which it absolutely is not. So that's my answer to your question. But I am just so grateful, Catherine, Matthew, and when you see Mitch, tell him the same, that You just, you really, you've touched me. I think you've touched, you're going to touch a large number of people who are going to get the opportunity to listen to this. This is a message that people need to hear. And I'm sorry, I'm heartbroken that you had to learn these lessons over a lifetime of difficulty and struggle within your family. Hopefully that kind of pain can be of value to, could provide, can touch others and help others and lift others who are dealing with the same situation.

Yeah, I think bringing it up and making things open is the right way to go. And I hope this next generation will have a different view of these illnesses. Because of people speaking out and not make it something we have to be ashamed of. If you have to wear glasses, you're not ashamed to wear glasses. You do it to see. Shouldn't be ashamed to take medication. I've heard people say, oh, I have to get off this medication. Why would you get off a medication when you need that medication for the chemicals it provides to your brain? I don't understand why people would do that, but I've heard it done that, oh, we have to try to get off. There's no shame in wearing glasses. There's no shame in taking medication when your brain is missing the chemical that makes it happy. Get rid of the shame.

Absolutely.

And as we draw to a close here— Ricky, and before you close, Yeah, and I was gonna ask you about any other final comments or advice.

Yeah, I do want to circle back to your comments about, hey, you know, I'm a man and I am the patriarch of my family. I can't be seen as having weakness. Um, I have to have all the answers to the questions. Um, you know, there— I have to provide, I have to go be the leader of my family. There's a lot of pressure on men And, you know, you mentioned that, you know, you feel like, oh, well, I can't talk about my feelings. And part of this may be, you know, culturally, of the way that you were— the way that you were raised, or, you know, it may be just your personality to not talk about feelings. I want you to stop and think. And, and think about, well, like, if you're struggling, you're having a hard time, but you're unwilling to open up and share. But you've got a child going through the same thing. But they are probably dealing with some of the same cultural pressure and issues that their father faces. And they may be feeling like, I don't think I can open up and share because this may look weak. And, you know, I want my dad to be proud of me. I'm going to be— I'm going to use some of that Mike Maddox boldness here and say, how stupid are you? Like, be an example. Be an example. Talk about the hard things. Like, It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter culturally. Do you think that it's fair to my 20-year-old brother that he doesn't have a dad because his dad was unwilling to share these feelings he had? Does it matter culturally?

No.

My brother is going through the biggest decade of his life, and I am so proud of him to have the courage to hop on this podcast and share his feelings today. But he needs a dad. I can't be his dad. A man. It doesn't matter. It does not matter for one second. If you feel like you can't talk about it, talk about it. Everyone in your life feels like it is better with you in it. Ian, talk about those feelings. And Ian, I'm using you as an example, but I'm talking to every man, every woman, every person who has these feelings. Like, I— it is stupid to hold it in. I'm sorry to be rude, but when it comes to suicide, Like, this is freaking serious. Like, it doesn't matter if you don't feel like you can— if you don't feel like you can talk to your family about it, look me up on Facebook and talk to me. Let's talk about it. Like, life is better with you in it. And we need to have the courage to have these conversations. And so, you know, whatever amount of discomfort you feel in sharing that you're struggling, like, dude, look around, everybody else is struggling too. You are not alone. Like, as far as I know, there's only been one perfect person that's walked this planet. And so for you to have a weakness, that is not a surprise to anyone. And I believe that as a father, to open up and share the example with your family and your children. Hey, I'm struggling with this. And it's okay to struggle. It's okay to not be okay. And when you struggle with this, I want you to talk to me too, because I want to be here to help you through it. You don't have to be isolated. So, Ian, I appreciate your, your vulnerability to share those feelings. And I know that those feelings are out there for other people as well. And so thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry to be so bold, but, but this is serious. And we need to get better about talking about it.

Like, you know, go ahead. I think too, it's like, when we counsel together, and we talk to each other about things, and we get things in the open, as a family, as a society, that's when we can solve the problem. And it goes with anything, not just mental illness. If we keep things in and we don't really share, I think that, you know, sometimes kids need to hear, "I'm sorry," from their parents. They need an apology. And it can, like, open up the communication because we're not perfect. And our kids could tell us, tell, talk until the sun goes down or longer about all of our imperfections. Um, but I think that when you do that, then you open up the communication between the generations. And I just wish you guys both just the best for, for caring about our family and saying such nice things about Michael and Um, we do hope people will remember the good things about his life and his laughter and his service, and that we deeply loved him and still do. We know he's still alive somewhere.

Catherine, thank you so much, um, for counsel and your advice and your direction. Matt, thank you for when I was listening to you, it was like listening to Elder Maddox. And I was tracking with it, telling me what to do, how to do it, how to be an effective missionary. You're right. You're absolutely right. Your words just pierced my heart and my soul. And you're right, I will follow you all. However difficult it is, I will follow your advice and counsel. Thank you. And again, this is— although you referenced me, this message As you said, it's to everyone who, you know, going through this, to open up and talk, even no matter how difficult it is, you just have to do it. So I felt the power of your words. And you're right, I agree. And I am grateful. I can't thank you both enough. And you as well, Jim Bennett, you've been very courageous and you've shared your vulnerabilities as well. And obviously Mitch, uh, what an extraordinary man he is and what, uh, uh, experience he's been through. And that you're there for him, you know, he's trying to— this is his decade and these events will shape his life as they will shape all of your, you know, your lives. Um, this for me has been the most, um, the most extraordinary conversation I've had in a long time on something like this, and certainly on the podcast. I didn't expect to have this conversation or feel like this. I've learned so much. You've helped me personally so much on this, and I can't thank you enough. So thank you to Mitch, who's not with us right now, but grateful to him. And what a courageous man. Matt, thank you so much for your spirit and being so bold. I think Elder Maddox is very much alive in you. And Catherine, thanks for being an extraordinary contributor to our podcast, and I know this will connect with so many out there. Jim Bennett, any final thoughts or comments from you before we close?

Just to echo what you said and to thank Catherine and Matthew and Mitchell and I think this is going to help a lot of people, and I'm very grateful that you've been willing to do this. Me too.

Thank you, guys.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you, Catherine, Matt, and Catherine. Thank you so much. And to our listeners, thank you for listening to the latest episode of Inside Out. Please follow this advice and go back and listen to Matt's direct advice and his boldness and his bluntness. His words, there's strength in his words, there's inspiration in his words and meaning and purpose. Follow his advice. I certainly will. And so to our listeners, please share this podcast. Because you never know who's out there who needs to listen to these, these words. And it may help them and it may save a life. Thank you so much. Thank you to Mitch who's not with us. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Katherine. And thank you, Jim Bennett.

And thank you, Ian Bennett. And we'll see you all next time on Inside Out.