A Conversation with Kirk Hays

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. I'm your co-host, Ian Wilkes, and I'm joined as always by the most excellent Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello, Ian. How are you, sir?

I'm doing really well. The sun is shining. Uh, I'm happy to be alive and we are here with a very, very special guest.

I am very excited about this. This is one of my favorite people in the world, so I'm really grateful that we're gonna have this discussion.

Mine too. And, and it's an absolute honor and privilege for me to do the introduction to the one and only Kirk Hayes, all the way from Honduras.

Hello, Kirk. Hello, how are you? And you guys are some of my favorite people too. I can't believe that. I mean, what is it, 25, 30 years ago that we met and we're still—

35 to 40 years almost.

So old.

We're really old.

We're really old.

We're really old. Um, I, uh, it's a real honor because, uh, Kirk, uh, I met Kirk through serving in the Scotland Edna Mission. You know, I'm from the UK, from Yorkshire, traveled 100 miles. Over the border from England into Scotland. Um, you know, there's Brits, uh, and, and there were mostly Americans in the mission. And, uh, there were some legends when I arrived there. There were some legends that, uh, you know, you, you within a day you get to know, uh, who's who pretty much, you know, you're, you're, you're with your companion and you learn within a week maximum, you know, who's who, if you like, in the mission. And you get to know the legends. And the legends were, you know, Matt Holland and Elder Simpson, Elder Murdock. You remember those guys?

Oh yeah.

And, uh, there was just a handful of missionaries and, uh, who were absolute legends. I thought, I've got to meet these guys, they sound amazing. And one of the great names, Jim, that, uh, was in that pack was Kirk Hayes. And Kirk, you were a— you had an amazing reputation. You were known for your work, hard work, your boldness, your knowledge of the gospel, and just being a wonderful missionary to serve with, somebody who's really devoted. And you were somebody that I really wanted to meet, and I heard all about even before I met you. When did you come out into the mission?

I came out in 1985, and I got to say, you're very kind, and I'm honored by that, but Both of you were people that I looked up to, uh, on, on my mission. I mean, I was older, not chronologically for you, Ian, but had been out longer, but both of you were people that I really looked up to. Yeah, I came out in, uh, 1985 under President Dunn and then was there during the transition with, uh, President Banks. I think I got named a zone leader the day that President Banks came in. Um, so that was the change, and, and that's why I really got to know Jim better. And I had already knew you, Ian, because we were together down in Dalkeith.

Yeah, that's right, that's right. So yeah, I mean, Banks was— became the mission president in, uh, July, I think, '87. I had done for about 6 months, and then Banks came in, in, um, July. So, and then, Jim, you came out in September, I think, in, uh, '87. Yeah, '87. So, yeah, so we'd love to, in our conversation, we'd love to get into some of the experiences and stories on the mission. But again, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. And as I say, this is one of the relationships that, and I'm sure I speak for Jim Bennett, that we, although we've not connected over the years from time to time, it's been many years, you know, since we've been in touch. I feel like we've met each other last week again. And These are those relationships that you take with you for your entire life, and we share something very unique and very distinct, you know, serving missionaries in Scotland, and that kind of connects us and binds us. And we'll get into that hopefully later on in our conversation, Kurt. But what we'd like to do is just give us a bit of your background, you know, uh, who you are, uh, growing up, you know, your background in your family and the church, etc., and just take us through a little bit of your early experiences, you know, youth and YSA, up to the point of your decision to serve a mission. And again, a bit about yourself if you're okay with that.

Sure.

Yeah, I was born in Montana, but at a young age we moved down to Utah. My dad was an avid fisherman though, so every year we would pack up and move back to Montana at Yellowstone. And he would fish for 3 months and the family was too big for us all to fit in the trailer. So I grew up 3 months a year. My bedroom was a tent. Not a, not a lot of people can say that, but it was a great way to grow up. And I think I learned a lot from my dad about that experience that later affected my life and the trajectory of my life. Um, so I grew up in Utah. Normal kind of Utah growing up. Everybody was Mormon. You went to church. Um, uh, my dad had served a missionary mission in Germany. And so, you know, I grew up kind of with that expectation. Um, and then, uh, I went to seminary, uh, quickly decided I didn't like that so much. So I would skip and, uh, uh, never graduated from seminary. Never really anticipated that I would go on a mission, never planned on it. Um, and then went by accident because I was dating this girl and she kind of wanted me to go. And one day I just said I was going to go and I was surprised to hear it as she was or anybody else. And the next thing I know, I'm packed up and on my way to, to the MTC. Um, even though I had never really intended to do that. And they quickly figured out that maybe I wasn't a guy that they wanted and they tried to send me home and I had to go meet with a General Authority and the General Authority He says, we're going to send you home. I said, that's fine. I don't really want to be here anyway. And, uh, he says, okay, I'm going to talk to your stake president. We're going to send you home. And then I went back to the MTC and I waited for the call to go home and nobody called. And the next thing I knew I was at the airport and I was in Scotland. So I don't know how I slipped through the cracks, but that's how I ended up, uh, ended up on my mission kind of by accident.

Wow.

That's amazing. So was this, um, Just go back a little bit because that's fascinating. So you, you tell us a bit of detail about what happened there. So you, you, you, there's always a girl involved, right? So you went on a mission because of a girl, uh, a bit of expectation there on you. And then you were, you put your papers in, you got called to Scotland first time, right?

Yeah.

Great.

Best place to get called, right?

Of course. It's the truest mission on the face of the earth, right? Um, and so, and then you were, you had doubts or you had some issues about getting out there, or, uh, just tell them what happened there.

Uh, yeah, I mean, you know, you go through the usual confession stuff before you go, and, you know, I confessed to something when I was in the MTC that they decided it was different than what I confessed to before, so I had to go meet with them. But the real fundamental issue was when I was out there, I mean, even though I was on my mission, I I didn't really have a testimony. I didn't believe. And I remember there was a day at the MTC where I decided that I was going to pretend like I believed until I did. All right. I was going to act like I believe until I did. I used the word act instead of pretend back then. And then I just started acting like I was, I was going to, that I, that I believed and I wholeheartedly devoted myself. To that. And right around then, that's when they were talking with me about, you know, should you really be here? And, uh, uh, uh, yeah. And so I remember you get called, you have to get in a bus and they take you from Provo to Salt Lake and, you know, you meet with this General Authority and there were like 4 of us and one of the guys in there, he's like crying and he's like, they're going to send me home, but in 6 months I'll be back. And, and, you know, I'm going to use that time to learn Portuguese. I remember that's what he was learning. And, uh, and he said to me, are they going to send you home? I said, I don't know. I hadn't been in yet, but, but I said, I'm not going to come back.

Right.

I barely got here. They don't want me. I'm not going to come back. And I went in and he, that's what the general authority said. We're going to send, probably send you home. We're going to talk to your stake president and you can come back. And I said, I'm not coming back.

Right.

And, and I think that, and he was shocked. Like that never occurred to him that somebody would say. No, right? And so, uh, uh, yeah. And so then he told me, yeah, you're probably going to go home. And then I just sat there for the next 2 weeks waiting for him to come get me and nobody ever did. And next thing I know, I'm, I'm on a, uh, a very hot stifling bus going through down from Edinburgh down to Dumfries and carsick and, and miserable and, uh, And that's, that's how I ended up in Scotland.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I mean, you talk about looking up to us or looking up to me. I was a greenie when I got out there. You, you went home probably very early in my mission and you were quite the rock star. I remember I had the one day, we had one day together where, um, Elder Hansen, my trainer, came back to Dundee to baptize one of his investigators, and you and I went tractoring together. And I just was in complete awe of you that whole day. I just thought, this guy— you were the zone leader in Dundee at the time, and it was just like, wow, this is the guy who gets it, who understands it. So if you had told me at the time that you didn't really believe and you were just sort of acting. I wouldn't have believed you. I would have thought, no, this, this guy, this is the spiritual giant that I need to look up to. And you went on to be an assistant to the president right after that, did you not?

Yeah, I did. For, for Ben B. Banks, Elder Banks. And, and acting is probably the wrong— or pretending is probably the wrong word. That it was, you know, you have to have faith enough to trust that you will get a testimony. And I was in that stage of, I was acting like it and devoted to it. I mean, I don't think I was lying, but, uh, but I was looking for a way to have faith and, and, uh, and so acting like I did. And I think that that came to define a lot of my life of where I was. I think I was good at administrative stuff and motivating people and things like that. And, and that oftentimes got, you get put into a leadership role that probably from a spiritual sense, you're not completely prepared for. But, but I wanted to be clear about that. I wasn't like lying. No, I definitely didn't believe in that way. Sorry, Jim.

Well, no, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I remember talking to you at a reunion. And you talk, because you were called into leadership after your mission very quickly, if I recall correctly. You were called as a bishop as a very young man.

I was, I was in my 30s.

And, uh, and I remember you saying something along the lines of, I, um, I was the only bishop that didn't pray. Uh, can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Yeah, so I come home off of my mission and, uh, and quit very quickly, quit going to church. Um, ended up moving to Virginia, uh, to finish law school, came back. Um, my wife started to go to church, take our two kids. And, uh, and I went to pick her up one day and I thought, you know, I went in and everybody was there and I thought, you know, this is a really good way to raise kids. It would be good to raise your kids in the church. So I'm going to start coming back to church just because it would be a good way to raise kids, not because I necessarily believed that it was true. Um, and so, you know, you start showing up and they start giving you callings. And the next thing I know, I'm like the elders quorum president. And then the stake president shows up and says, you know, God has spoken to the prophet and you are to be the bishop. And I remember being shocked by that because, you know, I, I knew that I didn't, I didn't pray. I wasn't, I didn't really have a testimony of God. Um, and so I, I became a Christian by accident too. I kind of, I kind of say that. And, uh, and that was a really hard thing for me because, you know, I rationalized for myself. Um, being the bishop was important. It was something I wanted to do to help other people. And I had had this course in, uh, college called Myth, Magic, and Religion, where they talked about how shamans are just as good at curing alcoholism as, as any other program. And people get faith healed and it happens because The people who are sick believe in the person who's saying that they have this magical ability to heal them. And so I rationalized that even if I didn't believe it, other people believed. And by, because of that, I could do a lot of good. And I think I did a lot of good as a bishop. For a long time, I thought I would never do that much good again in my life. And gladly I'm. Happy to report, I don't think that's true anymore. I think I'm doing a lot of great things now, but, but yeah, that's why I kind of went along with it is, is, uh, I felt like I could really make a difference within the church and I could make a difference in people's lives. And I, and I hope I did, but it creates this fracture within yourself, right? So on the public side, you are this person that people look up to and they, they, uh, turn to for faith. They believe in things because you say them. And then internally you're, you're feeling like the ultimate imposter, right? That's imposter syndrome to the max. And you feel unworthy and you feel, and you feel guilty. You feel like everybody else believes. So why don't you? And even though I was trying to do the things that I thought God wanted, um, uh, yeah, that's still. Fractures you. And so I went through a period of, while I was bishop, of incredible, um, depression. And I would just come home, uh, you know, I was working at the time, you work 60 hours a week. I would record my time as a bishop every once in a while. And I was working like 28 hours a week as bishop. And then you got a young family you're trying to keep together and and, uh, and I would just, if I had any time, I would just lay on the couch and watch Castaway. And I would get so depressed when he got rescued. My view was I just wanted to escape to a small Caribbean island. Right. And I recognize I'm living that, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, it, it really, it broke me as a person there for, for a long time. Uh, so I, I don't know if that answered your question, but I, I really felt like I was doing the right thing. I felt like I was making a difference in people's life. And I think I was a good bishop. I hope that the people that were in my congregation think that I was a good bishop.

Well, so, so your, your ultimate departure from the church, did that come, um, did that come in close proximity to your time as bishop? After you were released as bishop, is that when you went, I, I just can't do this anymore?

Yeah. So. You know, I was coming up, I was about a year short of when they usually release you as bishop, but my son was having a hard time and I just wasn't around. You know, you're just never there. And I went to the stake president and I talked to the stake president and said, you know, my son needs me. He needs me in his life. And my stake president started crying. He says, yeah, I know my family's falling apart too. Right. There's always that stereotype that the worst kids in the ward are the bishop's kids. Right. Because their dad's not there most of the time. And I said, I think I need to be there for him. And he said, I just have to have faith that like Abraham, um, you know, that you put your kids on the altar and you have to have faith that God will save them. And, and I, I just looked at the stake president and I just thought, this is the most insane thing I've ever heard. What if, what if the, what What if the lesson of Abraham really is, don't try and kill your kids, even if some voice tells you, don't sacrifice your children. And I told them, I, I just got to be released. Right? So that didn't have anything to do with faith. That was about protecting my family. And it wasn't, I mean, I'd already been there a long time. I was coming up on getting released in the near future. So I asked to get released and then, uh, it was probably 6 months later. I'm in, uh, I'm in, uh, uh, the airport waiting for a flight and I'm reading Discover magazine about some great scientific invention or discovery. And I hear, uh, and I, and I thought to myself, what am I doing? I, this is what I believe in. I believe in science. I believe in things I can know. I believe in things I can understand. And why am I pretending to believe in something else? And that's when I decided that I would just kind of come out of the closet as a non-believer. So, uh, it was shortly after that.

And go ahead. Well, so did you resign your membership or what, uh, what was the impact on your family? I mean, was your wife still a believer? Were your children still? How many kids do you have, by the way?

I have 3. My son was actually on his mission at the time.

He was on his mission.

He was on his mission. Um, the, the marriage ended shortly thereafter, and I think those two things went together. I don't think that I could stay in the church and can, and get divorced, and I couldn't get divorced and, or I couldn't leave the church and stay married. I couldn't get divorced and stay in the church, however that works out. They, the two kind of things kind of had to go together. Um, which was hard. I mean, that was unfair to, to her, but that's kind of on my personal journey. That's kind of where things went and how we ended up. And so, uh, so after that, there becomes all these rumors because somebody as prominent as a bishop isn't allowed to leave the church for the— for just not believing, right? There has to be some sin. So there were all these rumors going around, but I was gay, that I had a secret lover the whole time I was the bishop, that I had stole funds from the church, that I was involved in felony drug running. I mean, they would come up with any story other than, no, he just doesn't believe, right? That wasn't an acceptable answer.

But the church just can't do it, can it? I mean, it just can't accept, uh, a reason for leaving it. Because his true claims are unfounded or people stop believing. You have to be a sinner or lazy or lazy or involved in some serious offense. I had a lot of the same stuff directed at me when I left. I was on the stake presidency here, and then I even had somebody spoke about me in a church talk who derided me in a church talk. And, you know, don't be like Ian, President Wilkes, who fell from this I'm a kite and Satan's got him and I'm in league with Lucifer and awful, awful things. Um, they just can't accept that people leave because they, uh, this, you know, they just believe. What, what I find fascinating is that just, you know, you're saying, uh, when you were serving as a bishop, you were serving because you wanted to help people, which I think is, is the highest goal actually. Um, if you look at our church compared to other churches, and I've been I grew up as Church of England. I joined the church at 16, as you know, but there are many churches out there that don't ask or request people to demonstrate their faith in a testimony or stand up and say, you know, that the church is true and you have this incredible— you've got to demonstrate and prove your incredible conviction and devotion in all these different areas. There are a lot of churches out there are quite happy for people to show up and to help and to serve and to volunteer and just to be a helper to help others without having all this, uh, you know, commit 100% to all these belief systems. Our church is quite different. The demands are extraordinary. The church owns or tries to influence every aspect of your life, you know, how you feel and your relationships, what you wear, you know, how you behave, et cetera. It's incredibly high demand religion. And, but I, I think it's fantastic that you accepted that calling and you just wanted to help. And if you're, if you're as good as a bishop as you were as a missionary, you would have been a fine bishop. I had no doubt about that. And, and you, I, I think it's fantastic that you put your family first. Um, and you were probably released, sound like you released a little bit early. Um, and so what was there anything, excuse me, anything that, uh, aside from time with your family, which was a concern for you. Were there any specific issues that you had with the church that was a catalyst also for you leaving? Was it any doctrinal or policy or historical information that was also part of your decision to leave the church?

Yeah, I think a lot of people, you know, you hear discussions of deconstruction of their faith, right, as they go through the process of finding items that they didn't believe in, uh, historical matters, things like that. There were certainly items that I was vehemently opposed to the position of the church. Proposition 8 was going on at the time. I had a stake president that, even though we weren't in California, wanted all of these things read from the pulpit about how bad homosexuality was, and the church was opposed to any legalization of marriage or, or, uh, anything that attempted to compromise. And I wouldn't let him read those in my, my ward. And there was a lot of fighting over that, uh, which probably contributed to the, oh, he must be gay thing later. Um, but, uh, so there, there were doctrinal, there were doctrinal things like that. The church's position on women, uh, the delay of the church in allowing blacks to have the priesthood, black people to have the priesthood was a big issue for me, even when I was a teenager. Um, so there, there were those things, but my, my journey outside of the church wasn't a matter of deconstruction because there you're taking a belief and you're deconstructing it. And I didn't really believe. And so it was easy for me. It just kind of, it was like a balloon that, that just popped. And so it went away. It wasn't a matter of deconstructing. So I can't say that I left for a doctrinal reason other than simply I just didn't believe. Believe, I didn't believe in the church as a whole and, uh, or even in God. And so, um, so it wasn't really a deconstruction kind of a, a thing like that for me. Um, but definitely the, the, a church should be the leader on civil rights issues, right? It should be the one fighting for people to have human dignity and rights. And the church has always been the last one to the party, right? I mean, it took a decade after the civil rights movement in order for the, the, uh, for Black people to be given the priesthood. They should have been the very first ones fighting for those rights, not the last one to finally give up, right? Same thing with women's rights, things like that. I remember the day that I learned about of, uh, Black people being given the priesthood. And, uh, I, I was reading the Doctrine and Covenants and I got to that part of it and I'm like 12 at the time. And I get to that and, and reading that was the first time that I ever learned that, right? Because you didn't talk about it anymore in the church. And, and, uh, by then it would have been the 1980s. And I went to my mom, but I was so upset. My mom asked, why are you upset? I'm like, did you know this? Did you know that Black people couldn't get the priesthood before. And she said, um, yeah, that always really bothered me when I was a kid. And I prayed about it and God told me to just wait. And look, miraculous thing happened. Eventually the blacks got the priesthood, black people. And, uh, and I, and I said to her then, I says, I, I'm, I would never wait for God to do the right thing. He's not doing the right thing. That's not the right place to be. And then when you find yourself in the middle of that with gay rights, where the church is not doing the right thing and is causing so much harm, and, uh, because of it, um, I wasn't going to stand by like her and just wait for God to catch up with, with that piece of human decency. And I had a son that I knew was gay. I mean, I knew he was gay from when he was 18 months old and he used to walk around in his mom's high heels with a feather boa pretending to be Cruella de Vil, right? I mean, this was not a surprise coming. And so I knew that at some point he was going to have to leave the church. And I knew that, uh, it would be easier if he had an example, um, of that. So, but the fundamental basis was I just, I just didn't believe. Yeah.

Well, talking about that, I mean, because I don't know anybody in the church who— well, I do know some people, but most people in the church would, would say the same thing, that they were troubled by it and they were struggling with it. And when we try to sort of confront the legacy of the priesthood and temple ban, because I'm even uncomfortable just calling it the priesthood ban, they couldn't have the priesthood. Because Black women weren't allowed to go through the temple. Uh, Black people were not allowed to be sealed together as families, which we, we tout as the central doctrine or one of the most important doctrines, uh, of the church. And, you know, and the thing that is always stunning to me, because the way you're talking now is like God would not be last It is always stunning to me to hear people, uh, who are so eager to throw God under the bus instead of throwing human fallible leaders under the bus. There, there's a huge contingent within the church that is more comfortable saying, well, God was just a racist, than they are saying, well, Brigham Young was just a racist. And you look at Brigham Young's statements, you look at Brigham Young's Uh, we referenced on this podcast with a guy who was saying the church has never been racist, the church never done anything wrong. And I, and I pointed out, okay, well, how do you reconcile that with this statement from Brigham Young that says the law of God, which will always be so, is that if the, if you mix your blood with the seed of Cain, the punishment is death on the spot. And he said, oh, well, this is— I was attacked in the press before. We can't have any confidence in any of that. I don't know if that was even said that, you know, and this is coming from the Journal of Discourses, which was edited by Brigham Young. And the talks were included directly by Brigham Young. So whether or not he actually said it, uh, he put his name behind it after the fact. I mean, it was certainly something he believed. It's so— I mean, it is just so remarkable to me that we are not— we are so unwilling to admit error, admit the fallibility of leaders, that we are willing to ascribe the kinds of bigotry that you're describing. We're willing to attribute that to God. Rather than attribute that to man. And, and I think the only way to stay in the church is to recognize that fallibility is built into the system. The fallibility isn't just a bug. Fallibility is the purpose of mortality. That the theological center of Mormonism is the idea of agency, the idea that we chose to come to mortality to make mistakes. And we should, we should not only just acknowledge them, we should expect them. And, and the way the church deals with that, uh, I think it gives members sort of 180-degree different approach to that is that, is that we, we say, we kind of pay lip service to the idea that, oh yeah, we're going to make mistakes. And oh yeah, we've done things that are wrong. Uh, but then when you say, okay, well, what have you done that's wrong? Can you point to— point out a mistake to me? And, uh, no one's willing to do that. It's interesting, particularly on this issue, that the church— uh, there's a professor at the University of Utah by the name of Paul Reeve who's written a number of really wonderful books. Very thoughtful guy, very intelligent guy, and a believing member of the church. Um, but he wrote a book called Let's Talk About Race in the Priesthood, and, and it's published by Deseret Book. And he— Deseret Book came to him and said, we want you to write this. And he says, I'm not going to write this unless you allow me to come to the conclusion, the only logical conclusion in confronting this, that this was a terrible error. That this was a mistake and that this was not of God and that this was of man. And they said, go ahead. And so Deseret Book has quietly published this book, but my guess is most people have not heard of it. It's a lot like the Gospel Topics Essays that are willing to sort of acknowledge that there have been mistakes, but they're not willing to sort of cross the line and say This was a mistake. We were wrong. And, and the official line is just like what Kirk, your mom was saying is, okay, just wait. And then finally God will come around and God had his purposes for perpetuating this ban. When in fact it's— if you look at the historical record, it's painfully obvious that this was not rooted in revelation and that this was this adopted a 19th-century Protestant justification for slavery. The whole idea of the curse of Cain and everything else was a way that slave owners assuaged their consciences and said, well, this must be from God, and it must be okay to be doing this terrible, horrible thing. But so as you talk about that, it's just really fascinating to me that So many members of the church are willing to attribute racism to God as opposed to attributing racism to man. Does that make any sense? I mean, has that been your experience? Yeah.

And I've heard you say that on this podcast before. There's been other times when I've heard a similar thing kind of from, from you on, Jim Bennett. And I think that that's a—

I said that myself. Yes. I said one trick pony.

No, because I think it's an interesting attempt to resolve that conflict when you have something that is morally wrong that has been the policy of the church. And I think that the tension with that argument, that it's people instead of God, the first is, is these are people that are supposedly chosen by God and speaking on behalf of God. So you can say Spencer W. Kimball was a racist, and I think that everybody would agree with that now. The things that he said were incredibly racist, and yet, and I, 1976, they come out with this, with this proclamation. So you could say that up until the proclamation comes out, that, uh, it was, it was Spencer W. Kimball and racism. And after the proclamation comes out, now God has intervened. But that begs the question, why did you—

you're talking about the, the priesthood revelation? It was in '78.

'78.

Yeah. Oh, was it '78? Okay, uh, Uh, thanks for that clarification. So, uh, so you could, you could say that, well, that's when God stepped in, but that begs the question, why didn't God step in earlier? And you can say, yeah, Brigham Young was a racist. Um, but it's because Brigham Young was a racist. You forget that at that time there were abolitionists all throughout the United States. There were people and throughout the world, right? That were saying slavery is wrong, the mistreatment of Black people is wrong. God could have picked any one of those, but he picked the racist, right? So, to be the leader. So I think that there's the tension first of these are people saying they act as God's leader, or as God's mouthpiece, and are saying that this is coming from God. So either they're lying to us about what God says, or they're lying to us about them being a mouthpiece for God. Then, then the, the second layer you get is, why does God delay in intervening? Why does he wait till 1976? Why doesn't he do it in— I forget doing it in the 1800s when other people were standing up for civil rights. Why didn't he do it in the 1960s when the civil rights movement was on? So why is God the last one to show up to change it? Why is he waiting for the, racist to catch up rather than embracing the people who believed in those civil rights things. And then the last thing is those people really mislead. When church leaders are wrong about morality issues, they cause other people to be wrong. I remember a time I was in Big V, which was like our department store, and there was a couple in front of us in line, and I'm a young child. I'm like 5 at the time, 6, and The, it's an interracial couple, a white woman and a black man. And I remember my mom saying, we don't believe in that. That is wrong. My mom is the least racist person I know. She loves everybody, right? That wasn't her speaking. That was, I don't know who was the prophet then, Spencer W. Kimball or whoever it was. That was him speaking through her. She was repeating what she had been told. So God would be, under that theory, God would be allowing this mouthpiece, his mouthpiece, to lead people into immoral actions. Um, so, so I think that there are those three problems kind of with that approach. I think you've just got to admit either, either the prophet's the prophet and he's speaking for God, and you've got to justify that,, and you've gotta own up to it and say, okay, for some reason God is saying it, or you've gotta, you know, you, you can't sidestep it by pretending that it's somebody else and God's okay.

These, uh, these points, uh, are some of the most important points and issues that I've ever heard, uh, including we've ever discussed on the podcast. The two things that I'm, uh, uh, I'm thinking of is, uh, as the only true living church upon the face of the earth with all these claims that the prophet is the only person on the, on the planet that has speaks the mind and will of God, that knows the mind and will of God. Your most important point that the church should be first leading this, dealing with this first and ahead of everyone else, considering this unique relationship with God. I think that's one of the most important issues that, you know, we've ever discussed or even contemplated in life, but also in our experience with the church, but also on our podcast. And the second thing that hadn't dawned on me until now, actually, in this conversation with you, Kirk, that, Jim, you've got people that are inherently good people, right? Kind, good, naturally, instinctively good, loving everybody no matter what color or religion, right? They love everybody because that's who they are, you know, like Kirk's mom. And then you get the church that pressurizes people to believe a certain way. You've got to believe in these things and accept the prophets and, you know, you've got to accept and support all the prophets and all the doctrine over the years. And that, those doctrines and those policies, uh, uh, damage and diminish people's natural instinctive good qualities. That these people, uh, repeat and regurgitate awful, awful teachings when in fact that's not how they feel. And it's, it, this, I, I, I feel so strongly about this because this is, was my experience on this very issue. As you know, I left because of the essay, mostly the Race and the Priesthood essay that came out. I never, it was, it was wrong. It was flat out evil to have that, disgusting to have that. And the comments that Brigham Young and, and Bruce A. McConkie said about Black people and others was awful, disgusting, terrible things. And why would God allow that, right? And so you've got good people in the church that are some kind of trying to reconcile this. I think it's absolutely awful. So there's two things there. Jim Bennett, did you want to step in on something? I think you did. You want to say something on this?

Well, no, I mean, I don't want to. I I'm not, um, I mean, I'm sitting here trying to figure out the best way to make sense of this, uh, because I am aware of this. I feel exactly the same way, and yet I am still in the church. And so there's sort of a tension there in terms of, okay, well, Kirk, you've sort of outlined, uh, a clear dichotomy, which is, and tell me if I'm getting this right or wrong. But which is either we accept, um, that all of these failings are God's fault and that he's chosen racist mouthpieces and he's chosen people who, who have made these errors, and so that gives him the responsibility for them, or we just sort of have to accept that the church is not what it claims to be at all and we have to walk out. Uh, I mean, is that kind of a steel man description of what you're saying?

Well, I think that goes back to, I think that most Mormons today are sympathetic to homosexuals and, and don't think that the church is on the right side of that issue. And there's a, there's—

I would agree. I would agree that most, most Mormons are. Exactly there.

Yeah. So they rationalize staying in the church with the same thing that my mom did. Eventually the doctrine is going to change and they justify that or, or, or explain it away by saying, I can do more to make the church get— be better by staying in the church than leaving the church. And, and I'm not going to question that. I think that, I, I think that I did some really important things to blunt a lot of the doc— the, the worst parts about the church by being in the church and being in a position to make a difference, right? There were people that they went after that I protected, and, and, uh, uh, and there were some people that they didn't go after that they should have, and I think that I was instrumental in that. Um, maybe we come back to that in a minute, but, uh, but I think that that's that debate between do you stay in the church to effectuate change or do you leave the church? For me, I think that the church only makes fundamental change when it receives pressure from outside. It doesn't care about the pressure from inside. So you have to naturally grow enough people to have the right morality to finally get around to doing the right thing. And that's probably why the church is so far behind everybody else on civil rights issues, right? Because they're, they, it takes a long time to grow those people, to change the old guard, which is, I mean, what's the average age in the, the quorum now, right?

So this is the first time the First Presidency has consisted solely of people over the age of 90.

Yeah, so you're taking the morality from 90 years ago to lead this powerful church and to say that this is the morality that everybody should follow. And so, so, you know, you're, it, it, the structure of the church is designed to, to make a big ship that doesn't turn very fast, which is a great thing when you want stability, but not when you require the ability to change as circumstances change. And especially if you're off course, which is, I think, what the church is on a number of issues. It's dramatically off course and it has a hard time coming back. It takes generations to get back on course, and by the time it gets there, it'll be off course again.

Right?

I think that the church needed— on, on the issue of civil rights for, for, uh, African Americans, on the issue of rights for women, uh, uh, on the issue of rights for, for homosexuals, it, uh, it, it was behind the times and it should have been one of the leaders. There was such an opportunity for the church when I was the bishop and these, these issues of how do we treat people fairly who are homosexual? And the church's stance was, well, we're gonna go out and we're gonna pay a lot of money to make sure that Proposition 8 doesn't pass because we don't want 'em to get married. Instead of coming forward and saying, everybody is a child of God. Love is love. We may not agree with this particular kind, but we agree with the fundamental principle people, that people should be treated fairly. And so we are going to throw our full support behind legal unions, right? Maybe not marriage, but legal unions. Let us become an advocate for people that are, uh, for equality and for justice. And instead they went, they went the other way. And I think that right now there are people that are trying to figure out— the United States is in a crisis right now, and they are people looking for leadership from a church that claims that they can tell them what God wants for issues that matter in their life. The whole reason why you have modern-day prophets is so they can tell you in Nephi. And yet we don't see anything from the church on the threats that are being called by evangelical Christianity in the United States and these, these dramatic, terrible, unjust policies that are going, the church remained silent. The church, it should be the leader.

Ian, that's a huge concern for you. You've talked about that many times. The church is—

I keep coming back to this, Kirk, about, you know, look at the world that we're in right now. Look at all the wars, the divisions, all the division across society, the inequality that's out there. And just a crazy world that we're living in with all these issues and immigration and health and politics and just endless problems that we've got in the world. Where's the church on this? We've talked, we've had a, I think we dedicated quite a bit of time, Kirk, on our podcast to what's the role of the church in speaking up about these issues in, you know, as a multi-billion dollar enterprise. And is a church that's pretty established with an extraordinary vast amount of resources network across the world and wants to have these photo ops with the Pope and photo ops with these different leaders around the world. And it's very, very good at the photo ops, you know, for the images and the, uh, the newsletter, et cetera. But where's the substance? Where's the leadership? If we, if the claim is that we've got this inside track with the Lord, that we know stuff and we know stuff first and we've got solutions because God has revealed them to us and we've got that, that unique insight because we're the only true church upon the face of the earth. Either God is speaking to the prophets and they're ignoring him, or God is silent on these issues and doesn't care, doesn't have anything to say about what's going on on this planet, or he does and the First Presidency is kind of picky and choosy about what they want to say. The only conclusion I can come to is that it's a man-made church and the church doesn't want, is trying to walk a fine line on politics, is afraid to speak up and stand out and be the first on things. That's where I am. I mean, Jim Bennett's on a different position. So I hold the church, the church holds its members to a high level, high standard and a high level of accountability. Look at the the interview process and the, the, the, the transparency around holding members accountable to living the, the standards. Uh, it's about time, I think, that the church held itself to the same standards and transparency and accountability and, and did more and actually, uh, did what it's supposed to do, which is to lead and be first and to speak up even on unpopular issues. Do, do the right thing. There are examples of people that have done that. I think Mitt Romney, who Jim knows from his experience, has spoken up politically on some things. So I think that, I think there are people in the church, Uchtdorf and Romney, and probably some other people that from time to time—

I would add Senator Bennett to that.

Senator Bennett as well.

A man who, not on my political side, but who I have incredible respect for.

He was a—

your father was an amazing, great man, Jim Bennett, and he raised an amazing, great son.

Well, thank you. Thank you on both counts. But I would absolutely agree with you that, I mean, so much of, of really— so the, the reason I am still in the church is because, uh, of the goodness of my father and how he navigated all of this and the kinds of discussions we had on this. And where I was going earlier in terms of when I was trying to steelman your argument, Kirk, is that I'm trying, I really do genuinely believe there is a third way. That there is, that in order for the church to continue to survive and to thrive, essentially, I think we have to, we have to come up with a different paradigm for what the church is, because both of you are outlining something that I think is very representative of how most people in and out of the church see the church. We announce we are the only true and living church on the face of the earth. We announce that we have a prophet who speaks to God. And so everybody says, well, if you have a prophet who speaks to God, this is what I would expect. A prophet who speaks to God to do. And this is what I would expect the Church of God to do. And I think those expectations are reasonable. And I think, uh, at the same time, uh, I think that particularly in the church, uh, we have, we have sort of created this kind of complacency where we are willing to punt off our shortcomings and our failures, uh, to God and, and say, well, geez, uh, yeah, the church didn't lead out on this. Well, it must have been because, um, that's what God wanted, not because God respected the agency of us and we didn't have the courage or the ability to go ahead and lead out on this. I mean, so, so backing up a little bit in terms of my theological perspective, uh, I have become largely a universalist. Uh, I see the world in Latter-day Saint terms. I, I find elements of Latter-day Saint theology extraordinarily compelling, particularly with regard to how they deal with theodicy, with the idea that what happened before this life informs what happens in this life, which helps us understand that the purpose of this life, you know, when you start asking why is there so much suffering in the world, you say that's what we signed up for because we recognize that's how we become more like God. I mean, I find that whole theological framework very compelling. I also find the fact I firmly believe, I mean, you talked, Kirk, about the idea you did some good when you were on the inside, and I think you absolutely did. I feel convicted that this is where God wants me. And so I sit here and I'm listening to both of you talk about the shortcomings of the church, and I can't disagree with anything of what you're saying. What I can do is say, I think the only way forward for the church is to incorporate that and embrace that and take accountability for all of the times we failed, for all the times we've lagged behind, and recognize that that is all part of the process too. But what that requires us to do is give up, um, the pedestalization of church leaders, give up the idea that Russell M. Nelson has more access to God than anybody else, uh, essentially redefine what we mean when we talk about a prophet, seer, and revelator, what we mean when we talk about church leaders and apostles, because they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want us to recognize their weaknesses, and yet they want us to treat them like they don't have any. It's the President Oaks statement that it's wrong to criticize the church even if the criticism is true. And it's just, you, you look at that and I just say, look, things that can't go on forever eventually stop. And this kind of false infallibility and this refusal to take accountability for where we have made mistakes eventually is going to have to stop one way or the other. Either it stops with us actually taking accountability, or it stops with the church going off a cliff and falling into total irrelevance. Uh, because the church is never going to go away. The church has enough money to perpetuate itself essentially through eternity. Uh, but, uh, the church is in serious danger of just becoming irrelevant, becoming a marginalized sort of group. Uh, it's increasingly getting a reputation for being a right-wing group, which is interesting because when I worked in— I, I worked, um, when my father lost, I ended up going to work for Sam Granado, who was the Democrat running for that seat that Mike Lee eventually eventually won. Uh, and when I started working for Sam Vernado, I was surprised to go to a campaign meeting and see Elder Stephen Snow at the campaign meeting. And Elder Snow at the time was a sitting General Authority. I think he was the church historian at the time, but he's also a believing Democrat. And, and I essentially said, What are you doing here? I didn't say it quite that bluntly, uh, but his response was, the church is very concerned that it's getting a reputation for being a right-wing church, and the church is very eager to see credible Democrats in office. And I went, well, that's wonderful. Why don't you say that publicly? And he said, well, we can't do that. We have to maintain this kind of idea of neutrality. The point being, I think there are— the idea that the church is monolithic behind the scenes, the idea that everybody is in lockstep with the idea of we never apologize and we are hardliners and this will never, ever, ever, ever, ever change. I don't think that that plays out in terms of what's actually happening behind the scenes. I think there is, you know, I mean, Greg Prince and I had a conversation about this. He's a scholar who wrote the wonderful book David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. He just says there is more division, particularly on LGBTQ issues, than on any other issue in the church within our lifetime. And, and I, I think, Kirk, you're absolutely right that I, that this is going to change. I mean, I, I don't think it has any, I don't think the church, the church's position now is entirely untenable. I mean, the fact that back, back when you read The Miracle of Forgiveness and Spencer Kimball was saying you need to beat your head against the door until your muscles are bloody and you're, you know, That, that, that quote just absolutely haunts me. We had a whole podcast on the miracle of forgiveness, so I don't want to get too much into that. But the thing about President Kimball's position back then is it had the luxury, or at least had the benefit of being, uh, consistent with itself. That if we truly believe that people do not, that people choose to be gay, people choose to be transgender, and they do so by making a morally dubious choice. If we truly believe that, then we are justified in denying them the blessings of the church as they make evil choices. But we no longer believe that. The church— and I think Prop 8 did this, the backlash to Prop 8, and this, this also reinforces, Kirk, what you're saying about pressure from the outside, because the backlash to Prop 8 forced the church to reevaluate their approach. And that's the first time the church quietly— again, the same way they released the Gospel Topics Essays, they didn't call attention to it, which drives me crazy— but quietly admitted, no, people don't choose to be gay. No, this is not a moral, uh, a morally a dubious choice. Uh, people don't choose this. They, they won't go far enough to say they're born this way, but that's clearly the implication. They also say, okay, uh, you can't change your orientation, uh, by praying it away. Uh, they've said both of those things, which I think are huge shifts from where the church was when we were all serving missions. But at the same time, okay, they've, they've said that. Well, the logic, the, the logical conclusion to that is, okay, well, if they're— they didn't choose it, if it doesn't change, then there must be a righteous purpose for it. That the Lord, the Lord must have a use for it, and that there must be some sort of righteous expression. For, and the church has said, no, you didn't choose this, it can't change, but we're still going to treat you as if you did choose this and as if it will change. And so that is not a logically tenable position, let alone a morally tenable one. Logically, it's going to have to resolve one way or the other. You're going to have to either go back to Spencer W. Kimball and say, we were right the first time, you did choose this, you are wicked, and we are going to punish you. Or we have to go forward to the idea of inclusion, to the idea of there is some kind of righteous purpose for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. And I don't see any way that they can go backward, particularly with the rise of— I mean, the rising generation just has absolutely no tolerance for that kind of bigotry. And they also are not susceptible to the kinds of things that were being said during Prop 8, because the warning during Prop 8 was, if you legalize gay marriage, traditional marriage is going to fall by the wayside, uh, civilization is essentially going to collapse. The world is going to end if we legalize gay marriage. Well, we legalized gay marriage, uh, and the world is not— not only is the world not ending, but, uh, it's been— I think everybody seems to recognize that it's been a positive civilizationally, and the church has even endorsed the Respect for Marriage Act, which codifies, the legality of gay marriage in all 50 states.

No, but the, the church, the church supported that because it carves out religious—

carves out all these exceptions. You know, you're perhaps right, but the point is, I agree with you, all this ground because the church has no— the church has lost on this issue in every possible way it is to lose. We—

I agree with that, and I agree with your proposition that it's not monolithic. And I think that the best example of that is the church's stance on marriage constitute— gay marriage constituting apostasy, right?

That—

so you're talking about, well, they're getting more liberal, and then this rule comes out. And for, for your listeners, it stated that if anybody gets married in the church, they are an apostate and their children are law states. And having sat in a lot of disciplinary councils, I can tell you exactly what that was. So one of the problems that the church has with its stance on gay marriage is that everybody knows that it's wrong, right? Most of the, the, the, the, uh, most of the membership knows that this is the wrong position. They just know it in their gut. Morally, we're taught to be kind, and this is not kind. And the problem that the church has is it was easy to maintain the discrimination against Black people, because they didn't know a lot of Black people, right? There was segregation within the country. So it was easy to vilify as, as, you know, well, they were evil in the pre-existence, or they carry the curse of Cain, because you didn't know people on a one-to-one basis. The church fails to be able to hold that line when it comes to homosexuals and trans people and everybody else, because we all know them. They are our children, they are our uncles and aunts, you know, we, we know them. And a lot of gay people go to church, right? My son was the very last person in my family who He was gay. He was the last person to leave the church because for him, it was a spiritual experience. He really believed. They, they had to kick him out because he kept coming to church. And so now you've got a problem. If you're in Salt Lake and you are trying to have this hard line against gay people, you're undercut every time they go to church and they see somebody that they like and that they love who is in the pew who is gay. So you have got to create separation for them. And that is what all, all of that, uh, that declaration that they were apostates. And they take the, they take the authority away from, from the local leaders. My son was discriminated against by the, by the teachings of the church, but never by his bishop. His bishop loved him and his bishop was understanding and his bishop cared for him. And when I was a bishop, I protected all of the gay people that were coming to church because this is how you do it. If somebody is gay and they're a male, that has to go to the stake president and it's a stake matter. I'm only in charge of females or somebody who doesn't have the priesthood. So I would just go to my stake president and say, hey, he's having this same-sex marriage issue. I don't think you need to deal with it. I think I can deal with it. And my stake president was always glad to wash his hands and say, sure. And then I would protect them. And I think that a lot of local leaders are in active but clandestine rebellion against the policies of the church, and they were protecting gay people and they were not enforcing. And so when the church came out with the, the gay people who get married are apostates, it, it took care of those two problems. The first thing is it takes all authority away from the local leaders who are showing sympathy towards gay people, because there are only a few things that as a local leader we did not have authority over. If you stole money from the church, if you committed incest, if you committed murder, and if you were an apostate. Those things had to go to Salt Lake. So by declaring them to be apostates, they've removed local control and therefore local sympathy from the local leaders, and they ship it back to Salt Lake where the hard line could be maintained. The second thing is, it's one thing the people, gay people that go to church know that they are condemned in the eyes of the church as well as God. Right? But they are willing because they believe enough to accept that punishment for themselves. And usually it's because the same thing that motivated me to start going to church— they want their children to be in church. And so by the church declaring that not only is the parent an apostate, the children are an apostate too, it took away all of the reason for those gay people to be there. We are going to punish your children. Because of the way that you are. We don't do that with anybody else. We're going to do it with, with gay people. And though it, it passes—

I don't want to interrupt you because I'm, I, I just want to say that I had never thought of it in those terms, that, that I have never heard a clearer and more sensible justification for punishing the children of gay people, that they're trying to take away motivation for gay people to continue to participate in the church. I had never thought of it in that way, and I think that's actually a brilliant way to look at it. So, sorry, continue to go.

And so I think that that passes, that is the hard line, but as you said, it's not monolithic. I think there are people who are fighting for a more sympathetic view, and eventually those people won over, right? And were able to reverse that policy. But, but that doesn't mean that the church is doing the right thing.

What that policy does though is demonstrate that the church does not really have the power to reverse this. I mean, it was an attempt to reverse this. It was an attempt to say, okay, I'm seeing too much sympathy. We're seeing too much movement in that direction. Let's just quash it. Let's just step on it and, and make it go away, and we'll just issue this edict, we'll create this policy, and that'll be the end of it. And not only has it not been the end of it, but it has— the fact that it had to be reversed 3 and a half years later, I think that has to be extraordinarily embarrassing to church leaders.

Yeah, because I remember them saying, lining up to say, God told us this.

This, right? Right. Right.

It was the same thing as when, you know, they said, well, God finally told us it was okay to let blacks have the priesthood. They were lining up to say, God is telling us that the family proclamation is right. And he's telling us that this policy that they are apostates is right. And they were lining up and then 3 and a half years later, they had to back down. But don't overestimate that. I think that that's because there is a fight in, in the highest level of the church over what that stand would be. And it wasn't pressure from within the church, I don't think. I think that, I mean, you saw the numbers right after that. The church just became vilified. People were leaving left and right. And, and it was an external force on the church that caused that change. It wasn't the people who stayed within that effectuated that, I don't think.

President Nelson went into great detail, actually, when, you know, in 2015, when the church implemented the policy that made it difficult for children of same-sex couples to be baptized and blessed, Nelson is on record in the interview. I think I, I, I have seen that going into great detail of the revelatory process about why that was such a, a, a, a significant, uh, decision, a controversial one, but they went into great detail about why, of, of the details, the process of why God told them to do that. And then 3 and a half years later, they changed the whole thing. I, I, embarrassment is an understatement. Um, the church is wrong on this and so many other issues as well. We talk in the other podcast, we try to walk a, a, a balance there. The church does a lot of great things. We, we know that. But on certain things like race in the priesthood and, um, uh, gay rights, et cetera, and civil rights, it's it's either on the wrong side or it's on the right side but is late, late to the, late to the show. Um, but Jim, we're coming up to, uh, the end of a podcast here. Again, I want to express our gratitude for you taking time. And I could— by the way, I've learned so much from you today. There's things that you've said that I've never seen or understood before, and Jim's highlighted, one of those things as well, amongst a few things. Um, just a couple of, uh, uh, thought questions on my end, and Jim Bennett, you, uh, can add yours, and then we can just kind of wrap this up in the next probably 5, maybe 7 minutes or so if we can. But where are you now with your faith, Kirk? Uh, tell us a bit about your life, and you've also got a large TikTok following. Tell us about that. Go ahead.

Yeah, so, so when I look back at the events that changed my life, uh, you know, we've talked about a few of those, but after shortly after I left the church and I was trying to figure out, so what's going to be my moral compass going forward? I went to a pub in, in Arizona, Seamus's Pub, uh, with a, a, uh, lesbian artist studying, getting her PhD in Russian literature. And we were just talking about life. And I was talking about what morality do I do? You know, what is the purpose of life? If you no longer believe in God, what is the purpose of life? And she said something that changed my life. She said, you know, once you recognize that your existence is finite, every moment becomes precious. One of the things about believing that you're going to live forever, your family's going to be forever, is any given moment isn't that important. I think that's one of the things the church takes advantage of. They demand so much time away from your family, um, because it's okay, you're gonna be with them forever, right? Um, when you admit or, or, uh, acknowledge that no, when you die, that's it, then every moment becomes so much more precious. There isn't an infinite number of them. This is it. And so I really began to think, what is really important with this finite amount of time that I have? And I decided that just going through the motions and doing everything that society says you should do isn't how I wanted to spend my few years here on the earth. And so I decided I'm going to start scratch, and I'm going to reevaluate everything that I know about what is purposeful and what is meaningful. And I decided I was going to drop out of the rat race of consumerism that, you know, I think most people are engaged in where they're selling their time to buy more and more stuff so that they hoping that that's going to make them happy and give them meaning. And really it's taking them farther from what does. And I decided I was going to simplify my life. Down to just a couple of core values, drop out of the rat race, quit spending money, and go do what I think is really important. So I, I, uh, I dropped out and I moved down to Honduras, and now I live a very simple life on the beach. I have 3 core values that are important to me. The first one is creativity. Um, I try and create as an artist. And the second is I try and do good. I'm involved in a lot of humanitarian and environmental issues here. And the last is to experience. I think that the universe experiences itself through us. And so, uh, every year I take two big adventures and I go off and I do it. I just got back from hiking, uh, 400 kilometers across Turkey. Last fall I was diving in, uh, the Pacific on the Atomic Fleet, which are shipwrecks that were blown up by an atomic bomb by the US at Bikini Atoll and sunk. And so I do something like that twice a year to experience what's really out there. So that's where I am now. And it goes back to that realization that every moment is precious. So I'm sure as hell going to spend every moment trying to make the most of it. And you mentioned the videos. The social media. I was on a— our island here has 4,000 people on it. It's so small that we don't have any cars, but we have some medical clinics. And when I went there, um, it was right after COVID, and the nurses here were making half of what they normally do, even though they were working all the time, because the Honduran government couldn't afford to pay them. And one of the nurses there, I'm like, what can we do to help? And she told the story about this mother who brought in her her daughter who was having seizures. And they thought at first it was epilepsy. And then they realized, no, she was just dehydrated because she had had a terrible, a terrible fever for, for a week. And the doctor says, you need to get her Tylenol. We need to get that fever down. And the mother took the daughter and was leaving because she couldn't afford Tylenol. Tylenol here on our island costs $18. The average person makes $12. So it's a day and a half work to get children's Tylenol. So the nurse, out of the little bit of money that she had, she was making half what she normally does, went out and bought the Tylenol and gave it to that child. And I vowed that as long as I was here, that was never going to happen again. So I decided that if, at first I was just buying the medicine myself, and then I got on Facebook and I was like, if you, if you want, you can donate to me and I'll take the medicine down. And then I, one day I just thought, you know, what if I got on TikTok and, and I started to tell people about the island? I got them to love the island so much that they would go to an Amazon wishlist and they would just buy it on their Amazon wishlist. And then I would arrange for it to be brought down. And, uh, so we started that 3 years ago. We bring down hundreds of pounds of medicine every month. Um, uh, my last big call that I came out asking people to do it, there were trucks. Amazon had to send trucks full of just donations. We had over 1,000 packages delivered to my friend's house, over $70,000 in donations by these people that now follow the Vagabond Artist. That's what I go by, Vagabond Artist. And, uh, so what started out as this social media thing to to get people to love our island enough to donate has now turned into this, you know, 1.5 million followers across TikTok and Instagram. All of these people donating, all these people doing the right thing. And so it's really been an amazing experience. So you can, you can see them if you want to join, you can go to TikTok. I'm Vagabond Artist. And if you go to my Linktree, you will find the Utila Medical Clinic Amazon wishlist. You just purchase something there and, uh, and then it shows up in Phoenix, Arizona, and we bring it down every month in people that are visiting in their bags. They just bring it down. So zero cost. Uh, we kind of hacked humanitarian aid, right?

So, Erica, I think that's, that's amazing. You know, you, you've, you've, you've you're not in the church, but you found, uh, you know, people in the church think, some people think that there's no life after church. Clearly, you know, my life, uh, is, is wonderful. Your life is, is wonderful and extraordinary, and you're doing so much good. And there is life after church. And it's wonderful that you found your, um, a place of mind, uh, and a place of heart and a physical place that you can, um, live your live what's important to you, your values. Before we close our podcast, Jim Bennett, do you have any thoughts or comments, final thoughts from your end?

I just don't want to close this podcast. No, I could go on. I mean, the insights that you provided here, Kirk, are going to leave me— I'm going to be thinking about them and wrestling with them, for a very long time after this podcast concludes. I, I, I would love, I would love to continue this discussion for hours on end. Ian, I, I would love, if Kirk's willing, I would love to have him back. I mean, we've had some, some visit, some, uh, guests back, but I, I want Kirk. I want maybe a, uh, an annual checkup at least, uh, to hear where you're going because, because I just think your insights here, your experience here are just so extraordinary. And, uh, you are so clearly a man of compassion and a man of integrity. And, and what you are doing is, is just so inspirational to me that I want to be able to, to continue this and to be able to extend this. So, um, I, I just can't thank you enough for coming on and for having this conversation with us. And I hope you'll consider coming back.

We, I have loved it and thank you so much. And, and yeah, I'm on an island where when it gets dark, there's nothing to do anyway. So yeah, I'll talk to you guys.

Yeah. Perhaps when we meet again, it should be. Thank you. It should be on, uh, in Honduras. We should go down there.

Come down, we'll do a YouTube video. Maybe you should not always live on the beach. Donate and we could, uh, we could get the ticket to go down.

Uh, I, this is one of the most amazing conversations I've ever had, sincerely. I've learned so much. There's things that I've, you know, you have these conversations on the podcast and you learn, uh, things from time to time. This has been one of the most, um, impactful, uh, for me. There's things that you've said that I never saw before. So thank you for that. I know our listeners will be very grateful for this conversation. Before we close, Kirk, um, if this, uh, podcast was being listened to by the First Presidency and the apostles or leaders, and I like to think some of the general authorities have listened to some of our podcasts, uh, in fact, I've been told that our podcast is known to some of the church leaders. What, um, what message would you give to the First Presidency with all your experience, insights, um, the success, the pains that you've gone through, the experiences that you've seen with people? What message would you give to the First Presidency in regards to the direction you should take, uh, on some of the items that we talked about or many other issues that we, we, you want to mention here?

Wow, that's a, that's a big question. I think the thing that I would say to them is, you're sitting on an incredible amount of wealth. You have the chance to not do spiritual change only, but to make real change in people's lives that will last for generations. Spend it and change those lives.

Kirk, thank you so much for being with us today. So grateful to you. We want to thank our listeners who are wonderful listeners and grateful for the opportunity to be able to connect to our listeners and help as many lives as we can. We know your experience here, this experience here will change a lot of lives. Kirk, we're grateful to you.

We love you.

Express our love to you and your family. Uh, so thank you again for taking time to come on. And Jim, uh, thank you again for your wonderful, uh, insights. Kurt, thank you. Jim, thank you.

Thank you. It's been an honor to talk to you guys.

Thank you both.

And I, and I am just amazed that, that I guess 35 years later we're still friends and still, uh, having these amazing discussions that we started when we were just kids.

This is a lifelong relationship that we will, we'll add another milestone to that relationship when we're in Honduras with you in a few months, maybe.

That would be fantastic.

Okay.

Thank you, Kirk.

Thank you, Jim Bennett.

Thank you.

Bye.