A Conversation with Lance Jackson

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the only podcast on the earth that delivers a pragmatic and balanced view of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Also known as the Mormon Faith. I'm your co-host, Ian Wilkes, and as always, I'm joined by the polymathic Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello. How are you, sir? Really well.

Really well. I described you as polymathic.

Yes, indeed. I think that that's probably more generous than you need to be, but—

You know what it means?

I do. It means I'm good at a whole bunch of different things.

It's very good. It's very good. We've been trying— I've been trying to come up with long words words to describe you and ones that might even confuse you, but I'm failing. I'm not doing a very good job. It seems like you have a command, a knowledge of every word in the English language.

Well, that's typical of polymaths, isn't it?

That's true. Actually, it is characterized by knowledge of many subjects. I think you know every word and I can't catch you out. But anyway, here we go. Welcome, Jim Bennett. It's, uh, it's always wanted to have you, uh, you and I do this together. So Jim, um, you know, as you know, and our listeners know, uh, we've had some amazing guests on our podcast program over the last 2 years, and we're coming up on the 2-year anniversary. And for our listeners, we'll be doing a special episode on the, uh, the history and some of the key, um, interesting conversation, in conversation we've had with, uh, I guess, on Inside Out and some of the subjects that we've covered. And today we have yet another amazing guest all the way from England. And I have the honor and privilege of introducing one of the finest Yorkshiremen on the planet. And all the way from England, a very warm welcome to Lance Jackson. Hello, Lance.

Hello, Ian. Thank you very much for your warm introduction.

That's okay. It's an honor to have you. It really is. And I love your accent. And I, my, my friends over there tell me that I've lost my accent a little bit.

You appear to have done, Ian. Yeah, yeah.

I appear to have done. So if you, if you could help me, because you and I are from the same area.

Yeah.

If you could help me get my accent back, that would be, uh, wonderful. And are you in Birmingham right now, Lance?

Uh, I, yeah, close by. I've just been explaining to you, we're about 7 miles away from Birmingham. We're in a place called Dudley.

Okay. Yes.

Famous for Sir Lenny Henry.

Yes.

Sam Allardyce and very little else.

Yes. I know these names, Jim, and some of our listeners in the US might, in Canada, elsewhere might not know these names, but Lenny Henry for sure. He's an amazing comedian. Are you quite close to where the church has announced the temple location being built in Birmingham?

Oh, I don't know, Ian. I didn't know they had.

Oh yeah, they announced a new temple to be built in Birmingham. It seems like they're going out all the way to get you back into the church. Right.

Yeah. It's so— right. So when's that scheduled to begin then, Ian?

Well, the church for years now, including the last conference recently, was it last weekend or so, have been announcing a whole slew of new temples built. Right. Now all around the world. They announced, uh, a new temple for Birmingham where you are, and they've announced a temple in Edinburgh. Right. Uh, so there are two new temples being built in the British Isles. Uh, I don't know the dates. Uh, I think they've got a place and a date now for the Birmingham temple. So you might wanna Google that. It's interesting. That's gotta be within, uh, a stone's throw, I think, from where, where you are. I think it's actually in, um, uh, they call it Royal Sutton Coalfield.

All right. Yeah. Well, we know where that is. Yeah. And in fact, that's where my mission officers used to be when I— because I served in this area.

You served in Birmingham?

Birmingham Mission. Yeah. So that's where the officers used to be. And the first area that I served in, in Handsworth, that was the first Mormon chapel in the UK. So that was their claim to fame from there.

Okay. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I'm just going to give a little bit of a minute just to intro as well, a bit of, you know, context here. And then I want to get into our conversation and talk about some of the items that you and I talked about as we prepared for this conversation. And so for our listeners, I've known Lance, oh my goodness, I've known you since 1982 when I joined the church.

Yeah.

In Pontefract. And as you know, the Carlton family took me in. I was homeless. They took me in. And I, um, I actually, uh, had Heidi's bedroom with the Carlton family. We had Andreas and Martin, as you know. You know these people, Jim. Lance knows these people very well. And so I started attending the Wakefield ward, and without trying to embarrass you, and I'll try to make this, uh, part of the intro really short, you were the person of everyone that I looked up to. And the reason why is that when I, at that time, you know, in the early mid-'80s, uh, you were, uh, an example of somebody who was preparing to serve a mission. It was discussed a lot in the ward. I think, uh, Colin Carlton was the bishop.

He was.

I think David was— was he the bishop when you left Wakefield for your mission?

Colin, yeah, yes, he was. Yeah, so he will—

he will— so I—

so, Jim, I stayed with Colin Carlton. I was— lived with the Carltons for a number of years. You know, this family is near and dear to me, and he was the bishop at the time, and Lance was in the Wakefield Ward, Huddersfield Stake, preparing to go on a mission. And, uh, a wonderful— uh, it was— you're a little bit older, I think, uh, coming into the church, if I'm not mistaken.

I think I was 23.

You were 23, so slightly older than, you know, going on a mission than probably what, you know, other missionaries were going on. But you were set up as an example, as someone to follow. I remember having lessons and your example was mentioned many times in the lessons as I was, you know, in the youth at that time. And I remember you preparing to go on a mission. And then I remember going to the Wakefield bus station. There was a handful of people and I saw you off.

Yeah, you did.

And that was real, that was really important to me. And I remember waving you on that bus, you heading to Birmingham. And I remember that I want to do what you, what you did. I wanted to serve the mission. I decided to serve the mission anyhow, but I wanted to do it the way you did.

Right.

And I also remember that you were, and help me on this, you were preparing to, you were trying to get onto the Olympic team for hammer throwing.

Right, well, let me, let me clarify all this then. So yeah, I was the national coach, the national hammer coach, Max Jones, uh, used to— he trained— there were a group of about 5 of us who were sort of on the periphery of the national squad, um, and so he used to come through once a week and we used to train at Cleckheaton because that was the nearest place with some good hammer throwing facilities. And so me and some other guys had been invited to do that. And one of the lads that was there, it was a— he was the youngest of us, he's called Dave Smith, and he went on to have a really, really good career as a hammer thrower. I was always a better powerlifter than I was a hammer thrower, and in 1982 2, so this has been the first year I was in the church, I won the Yorkshire Northeast Divisional Powerlifting Championships, uh, in— that was at Huddersfield, I think. Yeah, so yeah, that was— and it's, it's accurate to say that, you know, I was training, I was training under the national coach, and I was, um, part of that, I suppose, small elite little group there. Right, just to clarify, I mean, the hammer is a kind of a Cinderella event really in, in athletics, um, and there was a— and it's been dominated throughout by Eastern European athletes, particularly Russian, or the, the Soviet Union as it was then, and East Germany. All the best throws came out there, although some good throws came out of West Germany, but for The reason I'm telling you this is because the qualifying distance for a country to send an athlete to, at that time, to the Olympics, the qualifying distance was 72 meters. And I don't think there was anybody in Britain at that time who could throw 72 meters. So that's, you know, that's the perspective of it. Yes, I was, I was saying, I was saying under the national coach, yes, I did want to go to the Olympics. Um, but that, that distance— and, and David, David Smith, who I've just mentioned, he won the Commonwealth title in, uh, 1982. I've just gone on my mission and I was in my first area, so he won that. He, he won that, did he? And I don't think David even qualified for the '84 Olympics, uh, because he, he wasn't throwing far enough. I don't think we sent a thrower then. He, he, he, he competed in the '88 Olympics. But not in, uh, but not then. So that's the, that's the background to that. So I think a lot of, you know, a lot of things have been sort of, um, had a little bit of journalistic licensing, shall we say, from people other than myself who've, who've related this story. Yeah, but that was the, uh, that— yeah, and obviously I, I gave up because I, I won the, I won the divisionals in February '82, and it was a— it was on a Sunday, and it was the first time I'd ever missed church. Um, and I, and I felt so guilty that I went back a week after and said I want to put my mission papers in. So that's how that works out for me.

That's interesting. And, and just on to that last point, the person, uh, who is partly responsible for developing that story is none other than President Thomas S. Monson.

I know, I've heard in That wasn't a unique club. Neil A. Maxwell as well, and quite a few other general authorities told that story with varying degrees of accuracy.

Right.

But yeah, yeah, it did come. It used to be, to be honest, it was a kind of a source of embarrassment at some points to me, you know, because I mean, people, when somebody makes a statement, so when it's Thomas Monson says this, you know, this guy was assert to go to the Olympics and all this, that's That's just not true. But it sounds like I've said it to him. Do you know what I mean? It sounds like that's come from my mouth and it never did.

Well, that's another interesting part of a conversation, Jim, for sure, because in President Monson's talk, and I think it was in April 20— sorry, 2012 General Conference, President Monson talked about this inspiring story. And I heard this talk and I immediately thought, that's Lance Jackson. And I told whoever was next to me, That's Lance. I know Lance. I'm now famous through Lance right now. In this talk, President Monson said, you know, it's an inspiring story about a talented hammer thrower, an Olympian with aspirations to compete in the Olympics. And he made this significant decision to interrupt his athletic pursuit to serve a full-time mission for the church. And then he highlighted the sacrifice and the service of this amazing individual. I'm like, that's Lance Jackson.

That's Lance.

I'm like, everybody is Lance. So that's extraordinary. So I just wanted to kind of highlight that because you are, you know, for a lot of people, you know, back then, certainly, you know, Martin and many others and Eddie, all these guys and Keith and these people that you know, you were the, you were the first person to lead us all by example to serve a mission. So, and I want to thank you for that. You've always been an extraordinary individual and I've always looked up to you and still do. So, as we get into this, what we'd like to do, and obviously we want to get Jim Bennett's comments and thoughts input as well. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. If you can give us a background as to your, you know, how you joined the church. You mentioned you joined the church in '82, same year as I did. What was that experience like? You know, I think the Mishnah's taught you, you came into the church, you then participate in the church with this sort of mission, share a bit of experience on that. You then came home and just tell us a bit of a journey in terms of what happened and then what happened in regards to any discoveries that you made and any changes, you know, did you stay in the church, did you leave the church and then, you know, going forward from there, we'll talk about where you are now and your perspective on life. So what's your backstory in terms of the church?

Right, well, I grew up in the Roman Catholic religion. I was brought up by my grandparents and my granddad used to go to mass basically every Sunday. So from being a little kid, I used to go out to mass with him and I used to tell my children if they got bored at church, when I was their age, I had to sit through a mass in Latin. So no sympathy from my end whatsoever. And my granddad, I didn't realize at the time, but my granddad was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church because he'd married my grandmother, who was a divorcee, and she had 5 children, and they lived together. Divorces used to take ages to come through then. So, um, he met her in 1938, and they did— they weren't able to get married till— since from her divorce didn't come through till 1952. So, um, but he'd been excommunicated. I didn't realize that, but I knew that he didn't take communion and he didn't attend confession. Um, and he died when I was, uh, 16. So he died in 1973, and, um, he, he, on his, on his deathbed, he, he was able to have his confession heard and he was given, um, the Roman Catholic equivalent of sacrament. And I remember thinking when I, um, when I heard that news, I thought, well, if it was, if it was wrong, if it, if it was right to, to deny him those things throughout his life, then why was it suddenly appropriate to give them to him, um, just because he was dying? And so I became quite disillusioned then, I suppose, with that. And although I wouldn't have articulated it in this way at the time, I knew the Catholic Church couldn't be, couldn't be true. Yeah.

Okay.

So I didn't, I would have, I would have always classed myself as a believer in God during that period. Um, but I didn't have any religious leanings. If anybody said, asked me what religion I was, I'd say Catholic, but, um, I didn't have any real religious leanings. I didn't go out to church or anything like that. So in 1981, now we're talking, I, um, I'd been out, uh, one night on Thursday night, and I stayed at a friend's house. Um, and then I was walking home, I was walking through town in Wakefield. Do you remember where C&A used to be?

What's it called again?

C&A.

I remember. Yeah, just top of Westgate.

Yeah, that's it, mate. Yeah. So there's these 3 guys, they were a threesome, stood outside this, outside C&A, and I'm approaching them and I could see all these people like veering away from them and, you know, right. And I kind of felt really sorry for them. As I got closer, I realized they were really quite young guys, these, and I felt quite sorry for them. So I decided that I would, I thought, well, I'll stop and talk to them. And so this lad, Sean Hurst, I called him, and he said, do you mind if I ask you a question? So I says, no, I don't mind at all. So he said, what's the most important thing in your life? 'And so I said winning, and then I explained that, you know, I was a strength athlete and the winning was probably the one.' And he said, 'I thought you said women.' If I'd been honest, Jim, I would have said women.

That might have been Jim's answer.

Absolutely.

But I said winning anyway. He said, 'If I can show you something more important than winning, would you be interested? So I said, well, if you can do that, yeah, I would. So I just arranged, I arranged for him to come to my house, really. And it wasn't these missionaries that Street contacted me, it wasn't them that came, it was the zone leaders who were actually just based just over the road from me, really, where I was living then. And so I started getting taught the discussions by them. And when they first taught me The first discussion then was, uh, the First Vision and like the introduction to the Book of Mormon. And I remember thinking at the end of that, that session, um, I don't really believe it, but if it's true, then it's important that I find out. And that was my take on that, you know. I wasn't, I wasn't convinced, but if it was true, I knew that it was important. And so I went through the investigation process and gained a testimony, and I got baptized then on August 5th, 1980. I think I'm gonna say one— August 5th, 1981. And one of the first problems I encountered really with church was as an athlete, because And we— a lot of competitions were held on a Sunday, and I was told, you know, well, we don't really, you know, we don't work on a Sunday, we don't do like recreation and stuff, and we don't— you don't watch TV, and we don't, you know, buy things from shops. So keeping the Sabbath, I thought, well, you know, that's going to be a challenge. But it just turned out— I mean, that coincided with the end of the athletic season. Uh, the, the lifting season began again in, in October, but the athletic season then ended in August. So it just happened that, um, I didn't have to make that decision because the season was, was already over in terms of that. Um, and as I say, I went then in that— that would be the August '81. Then in, in February '82, I won the Yorkshire and Northeast Divisional Championships at 110— I weighed 110 kilos in the 110-kilo class. Heavyweight class, and I, um, I won that. But, and that was the first Sunday that I'd ever missed church from joining, and I felt really guilty. And so the week after, I think Colin must have been on holiday or something, Colin, it was Wayne, right, that, um, that were sort of on the bishopric representative. And I went in and said, you know, I'm, I want to put my papers in for my mission. That was, that was what I decided then. And he said, well, that's amazing because we've sort of highlighted three here. You, um, his son Simon.

Oh yeah, Simon.

Yeah.

And, uh, Eddie, Eddie Tomlinson.

Yeah.

Um, and the ironic thing is that a few years down the line, me and Eddie Tomlinson actually both did serve missions, but Simon Wainwright didn't, and his his dad encouraged him to get his career sorted first. I think with Vic, he's always had a bit of these one rule for me and my family and one rule for everybody else. Anyway, put my papers in and I got my notification back that I've been called to the England Birmingham Mission. So I thought, well, that's exciting. So it's basically—

Lance, for our listeners, how far is that from where you lived?

Probably about 90 miles, I think.

90 miles.

Yeah.

So, Jim, Jim, what's that to you, Jim? What's 90 miles from you?

90 or 19?

90.

90.

9-0. Yeah. Uh, how many— so I'm in, I'm in like the Salt Lake area, so that would be like being called to Logan.

Well, yeah, I mean, it, it, it wasn't, it wasn't a glamorous calling. I can't— when I first got it, I'm looking for Alabama. Um, after Birmingham, but it unfortunately said West Midlands. So, and I went on my mission, um, within 12 months. So I joined, I went through the temple because you had to be in a year. So I went through the temple the beginning of August when it was my 1-year anniversary, and then I went on my— I actually started my B'Yam mission on the 1st of September. So within 12 months I was serving a full-time mission. I know I was good at it, as it happens. And I, in fact, I still make this claim and I've never had anybody could refute me on this. I was an AP after 8 months on my mission. So basically I'd been, I've been in the church 20 months, in the church 20 months. I've been on my mission 8 months. And I was called to be the assistant to the president. So I still claim that as a world record. I've never heard anybody who's told me any different on that. Anyway, I was an ice baptizing missionary, you know, did well. And one of the people— I'm going to introduce this person now in because I happen to be married to her— but one of the people that I met quite early on in my mission. So after I was a greenie for 2 months, Then after a greenie, he made me— my president made me a district leader. So I was a DL after 2 months, uh, and then after 4 months I was a DL and I had a training responsibility. So I had a greenie, George, right? And then, um, shortly after that I got caught— I got— that would be about, what, January? I got— anyway, I got called to be an AP after a bit, or a zone leader, for a month. And then I were in AP after 8 months.

Wow, that's fine. Very impressive.

Yeah, well, I, I guess it was. Yeah, it's— I came home, um, when I came home, I, I mean, I think I've probably held, um, every senior calling at ward level. I was— I've been a bishop, a branch president, high priest, group leader, been an elders quorum president twice, I've been a ward mission leader 3 times.

I was your counselor as Ellesquam president.

You were, you were a very good one too, young man.

Thank you, I'll send you the money after.

Yeah, all right, man. And, uh, and, and then throughout that I also taught seminary and institute, um, but when I came home from my mission, I, uh, I went to university, um, and so throughout my Throughout my undergraduate years, I held senior callings and I taught seminary and institute throughout that. And this is how dedicated we were, right? I, um, the week before my finals of my first degree, the weekend that my finals began on the Monday and went through till Friday. And Sunday obviously was the Sabbath, so I didn't even revise for my— the day before my first final exam because I'd have been breaking the Sabbath. That's how crazy that was. And I mean, I went— I was greeted that Monday morning by a load of other, you know, my compadres on the on my undergrad course, and they were all like propping their eyes open with matchsticks because they'd been up all night revising. And I strolled in and I hadn't done any revision on the day before. So yeah, we took it seriously, didn't we? It's fair to say. While I were on my mission as well, I don't know if Jim's aware of this guy, but you know, you know Jeff Capes, don't you, Ian?

I do. I do. He's a big name in the UK.

And he, well, he's just died recently, bless him, as Jeff. But Jeff was, um, he was a phenomenal strength athlete, and at that time he was the reigning World's Strongest Man. And he, he basically threw out this, this challenge to, um, all West Midlands, um, guys who think they are strong. You could register for this. It was the Hensford Raceway, and you'd be in a a 5-ton, uh, lorry pulling contest with Jeff. Um, so I went along with a— in a t-shirt, a sweatshirt I'd made up that said on the front, Jeff Cape sleeps with a light on. So it's not enormously disrespectful, and all credit to, to the man himself, took it very much in good humor. And, uh, and, and we remain friendly throughout you know, the rest of our dealings with each other. Lovely. As I say, he died last year, did Jeff.

You became friends with Jeff Capes?

Jeff Capes, yeah.

Well, Jim, our listeners won't know this, but Jeff Capes is a huge name. I mean, a very famous athlete in the UK.

What does that mean, he sleeps with the light on?

Well, because people who sleep with the light on are like little and scared, aren't they?

Oh, okay.

And this guy was like a quarter inch under 6 foot 6 and weighed 25 stone, which is what in American, that's, um, 200— no, 320 pounds.

That's a large man.

That is one big man.

Yeah. And, and when Lance talks about pulling a lorry, that's a truck, Jim, for our non-native.

I got that one.

Yeah, you know this, Jim. I mean, you, you, you're familiar with the UK lingo, right? So, okay. Oh yeah. Okay, Lance.

Yeah.

So, well, as I said, I finished, uh, Finished my mission, went home, did my undergraduate degree. I had senior callings throughout that time, and it really— I mean, when I look back now, it's really detrimental to me in my first degree because instead of spending time, you know, revising and doing academic stuff, I did all that, but I was also holding down these, which is, you know, very time-consuming callings. And as I say, when I say I taught seminary and institute, I mean I taught seminary and I taught institute. So at the same time, so there was a lot of reading going on. I was very busy in church. Church keeps you very busy and that kept me very busy. And I was, I think, you know, to be honest, it was very detrimental to me in my first degree, devoting all that time to church service. So yeah, I mean, I got a good degree and I graduated with honors in 3 years instead of 4. But as I say, I think I could have done even better had I What was your degree in, Lance? Behavioral Sciences, right? Um, which, which is probably my favorite academic area ever, but has not been. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm start, gonna start taking it up again because I've, um, I went on to study other stuff as a postgrad. So because I was involved in music and stuff, because I was on a I needed to know my way around opera scores and things like this. And I had very little music education. And so for some reason I went to— I thought, well, I better get myself at least some knowledge. You know, singing. I was singing with amateur groups at the time who were very good. But in terms of the technical aspects of music, I wasn't. And so I decided to do some more studying into that. And I went to— I enrolled at Wakefield College basically to do a GCSE. And the— because this was— so this was after my degree. And I did a degree and then I did a teaching qualification. So I thought, and as well, if ever I wanted to teach music, I was going to need to know my way around it. So I did this GCSE. But what happened with that was that this is when GCSEs were proper GCSEs, and as part of the package, um, you had, um, a half an hour with a coach on your own instrument. So my instrument was my voice, and then you had— sorry, an hour a week, um, tuition with private tuition with a tutor. And then you had a secondary instrument, which if you couldn't play, it would be the piano. So you got half an hour a week on that. But anyway, when I got this, I met my personal tutor, who was a lass called Hillary Jackson, funnily enough. And she was a soprano at Upper North. So as you're doing these things, you take along an audition piece. So I took along Isis and Osiris from the Magic Flute. And I sang about 4 lines. She stopped playing and she said, have you got any idea what you've got there? I said, well, it's a decent noise and that, but, you know. She says, no, she says, that is a really, really unique— she says, I've not— I rarely come across this kind of voice. And she said, would you would you mind coming and singing for my husband? Now, her husband— she's Hilary Jackson, but he's Paul Wade, and he was a principal tenor at Opera North. And so I went through to see Paul, and he basically said, you know, can I— you know, I'd love to be able to coach you and stuff. I think he was coming towards the end of his career and looking more towards coaching. Anyway, so that was my introduction to professional opera. And, and opera north. And so it was a very, very fortuitous sort of break, that really.

So how old were you when this happened?

Uh, so I would be then— so I just finished my degree, I'd probably be 30, 30, 31.

Okay.

Um, but so, and it never occurred to me up to then that I could probably earn a living through, through singing opera. Oh well, well, I, I didn't even really come across any opera till, till I joined the church. Um, and did I tell you that story about Jack Hargreaves' car?

I know, you and I, uh, with others prepared Jack's body.

We did, and I was heartbroken.

That was heartbreaking. So I lived with, uh, Sylvia, as you know, that we took with there for a year. So I knew Jack quite well. But yeah, I know this person. Yeah.

So Jack, he would, uh, he would, he would have good bass with Jack. Very good.

Coal Miner from Street House, I think.

Yeah, he was. But he, he were, I mean, the, his bit, it were great. But it was the first time I'd heard a proper bass, you know, live, if you like. And I remember I were in church and I didn't, I didn't really know a lot about music. And so, like every other person who goes through the door don't know about music, I'm trying to sing this melody line which were inaccessible to me because it's written in, you know, for sopranos and tenors, so it was too high for me. So, but I heard this, this like cavernous sound coming from, from the other side of the chapel. So next week, the week after, I went, I went and sat next to him and He was singing and I could join in with him, but he wasn't singing the same line as other people in the congregation. So I said to him after, he was singing the bass line, obviously, I realized later. But so I said to him after, I said, I can sing when I'm leaning on you. How come I can't sing the melody line? And he said, this is Jack, right? This is Jack's words, not mine. Well, that's because I'm a bass lad.

There you go.

And then he went on to say, and they're a bloody good bass and all.

Right, right. Yeah, that was Jack.

So I went, they invited me along to Charleston Male Voice and stuff like that. So I just, I didn't really start— I mean, I've got the church to thank in a lot of ways, um, for, you know, introducing me to that wonderful world of classical and sacred music.

Right. So you became a— I mean, you had this passion for opera singing. I heard you sing. I was hearing you sing in the choir, Huddersfield Choir as well, I think, at stake, and Wakefield Choir. And then you became a professional bass. And of course, we've got Jim Bennett here, who's a— is it right to describe you as professional singer in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, Jim? I think that's right.

It would not be right to.

Nope.

I mean, that they— I'm a volunteer, I'm not paid. So don't you have to be paid to be a professional?

Yeah, that's the criteria.

I've been paid to sing on some occasions, but I certainly haven't made a living at it. So no, I don't think it would be appropriate to call me professional, but I— and I'm very impressed. The idea of becoming a professional opera singer, I mean, that's such a rarefied sort of career. There are very few people that are able to do that and to sort of arrive at that in your 30s. Yeah, I just think that's unbelievably impressive.

Thank you. And even more so considering I'm a working-class lad from a council estate in the northeast of England.

Yes.

So that wasn't really a defined career path for for many folk, really. Um, so yeah, and then, but before, uh, saying, just going back a little bit, in 1984, when I, when I, I'd come home off my mission, um, I married Nancy, who you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, I know Nancy.

Yeah, and I'm gonna say something that's probably awful now, but I never loved Nancy. No, I was never in love with Nancy. I loved her. And let me tell you the reasoning behind marrying her. Um, obviously I was, I was, I'd come quite a way in church in a very short time, so very naive in church. And Spencer W. Kimball, who was the prophet at the time, he came out, made this statement, and he said Basically, any two people who are living the gospel can have a happy marriage. So with that in the background, I then got Brian Ford and John Barnsley singing the praises of this woman who I'd never— oh, Nancy, Nancy, you know, she's your ticket to celestial kingdom, kid, and all this. And I met Nancy the Sunday before I went on my mission. She was one of several young ladies who wrote to me, and her tenure was the longest. And basically, I decided to marry her. And I really, I feel very sad for— I feel sad for me, but I feel very sad for her that the man she married never really loved her in the way that a husband loves a wife. But I knew when I married her, I knew that she would always be faithful in church. I knew she'd bring my kids up in church. Um, and so all those things which, which were important, um, those bases were ticked. But contrary to what, um, President Kimball says, it wasn't a happy marriage because I wasn't, I wasn't comfortable Throughout it, I wasn't happy with Ruthie Annsey because I just didn't have that love for her. And marriage is hard enough, but when you don't really fully love your wife, it's very— it becomes impossible. But having said that, we had 3 biological children together and we stayed together for 27 years. While I was on my mission, I taught a young person called Anita Jones, and I was training in Lichfield at the time, and we got— Anita's family had all joined the Church, but she hadn't, and so we'd gone round there, as you do as missionaries, and it was one of those things that when I met her, I was immediately drawn to— we had a connection from the word go, and it wasn't an inappropriate connection because she was only 14 at the time. It was just— we were just people who just enjoyed each other's company. And in fact, Anita was a bridesmaid at my, uh, at my wedding. Um, so, and I came to realize as the years went on that what I felt for Anita was very different to what I felt for my wife. And I know that's awful, it really is, and I take no pride in that at all. But, um, and I never really loved Nancy. And so we, we had 3 children together. Naomi, Ben, and Chris. And then when Christopher was old enough, because he was quite happy to be the youngest member of the family, young Christopher, and we did everything in consultation with the kids in regard to fostering. We decided we'd like to foster, to give some kids who hadn't had a great chance in life to experience something, something, you know, good and wholesome. And so we decided to do long-term fostering because that way that, you know, the kids weren't getting moved. So you've got short-term and long-term fostering. I don't know if you know this, Ian, but you like short-term, that a kid's been removed from his immediate family they're put into with a family for a short period until a long-term foster placement can be found for them. We were long-term fosterers. First people we fostered were a brother and sister from Pontefract, and their background was not good. Their parents were heroin addicts, and this might sound contradictory, but they were nice people. They were nice people just in the grip of a horrible substance, and they couldn't look after these kids at all. So Tyler and Jasmine came to us, um, and then we, we fostered kids who were basically very difficult to place. And so we— Tyler had learning difficulties and Jasmine came with him. And then we fostered another young kid called Chelsea, and she had Kerzon syndrome. It's where, when they're born, the skull closes up too quickly. And so a typical feature of somebody with that would be like their eyes might look like they're bulging out and things. So we, we, we took Chelsea in because nobody else wanted her, um, and then we then a bit later on, um, took in another brother and sister who had been, um, this is a bit of a complex one as well, that their, their father had been married to Angie Priest, who was a member in Wakefield. And they, they divorced, and he'd had these two kids with, with someone else, and they were living in Spain. Um, so he died and the mother abandoned them, so they were in a Spanish orphanage. And when Angie found out about this, even though, you know, the only relationship really that she had to him was she, she would— a former wife of their dad— but she brought them back to the UK And then Jeff Warriner, who was the bishop, she couldn't look after him, but she just, you know, she looked after him for as long as she could, but she really needed somebody else to step in. And so Jeff Warriner got in touch with us and asked if we could take these two on, and basically we said yeah. So we got these, we got 5 foster children as well as the 3 birth children.

Right, so that's You know, as I listen to you and your story, and there's a lot of, uh, you I didn't know until this conversation. So you're in the church, you're married, your family, you know, you've shared about your feelings about your relationship, you devoted to the church. I think you was the Bishop of Pontefract at one point, if I'm not mistaken.

I was the first Bishop of Pontefract, yeah.

You were the first Bishop of Pontefract. That's the branch that I joined before I went to Wakefield. Uh, you had this attitude of winning from the early stages. You grew up on, uh, Loughsic Council Estate, I think, if I'm not mistaken.

I did indeed.

And you had aspirations to, you know, uh, to do something wonderful with your life, which you did clearly. You served a mission, became a bass singer, you, uh, made a home for foster children, um, creating a positive experience. What happened after that period, Lance, in terms of the church? So you were serving the church at some point, uh, you became, I think, disenfranchised with the church.

Absolutely, I did. Yeah, well, it was, um, we— so these, these 5 children with us, they've been with us for several years at this point. We're going through the process of adopting, um, the 2 youngest, the 2 kids that come from Spain. And, um, I, I became ill, basically. This was 2000, and I was, I was doing some postgraduate work at Hull University, and I became ill. And I, and first I was ill physically, and then I became ill mentally as well. And what it was, it was just a steady downward spiral. Ian, what happened was, and I don't know if again, if you're aware of your about this, but the— in 2007, they brought in the Religious Discrimination Act as an Act of Parliament, and basically, um, anybody who was, um, discriminated against, um, on grounds of religious belief, and that it was illegal. And we became, um, very much pariahs in this foster care setup because, um, a new woman had taken over who obviously had nothing down for organized religions in general and Mormonism in particular. And she was, um, very, very, well, openly hostile to us. And, um, over a period of In 2008, as I say, I became ill. And then, um, but between like 2008 and 2010, basically she had all the kids removed from us. And it was as blatant a case of religious discrimination as you could have encountered. I went to see my state president. Well, no, not when it ended, it was going on. I said, look, you know, we've been there's no doubt here that we are being discriminated against because we're Mormons. And, you know, so is there anything you can do? And he said, well, you know, explained everything to him. He says, oh, Lance, he says, seems like you've got a real case there. He says, I'll, you know, I'll take this higher up the food chain and I'll get back to you. And so he did that. By this time we'd had all the kids removed, and I was, as I say, I was ill, poorly, and I was developing— I mean, I think it would be fair to say I had a nervous breakdown. And so I went to see my state president again. I said, well, you know, what we doing about this? And he says, well, I've been in touch with the area president or whoever it was and he said that the church doesn't want any involvement. I said, what? This is— the church won't be involved in, in that to bring this case? And I remember thinking, why would you not? I mean, I came to realize that the reason that they wouldn't is if they couldn't into an open court, they would have to embellish on, on some of the, you know, the less than mainstream doctrines of the church, if you like. So, but anyway, we lost all these kids. My son Ben had served in Japan and he'd come home, and Chris, and then Chris was serving in one of the London missions during this time. I mean, we were having to phone them up and tell them, you know, this is, you know, you remember your sister Jasmine, she ain't gonna be owing you it back. And then it— so it just destroyed me. I think it's fair to say it was like a bereavement, really. You know, I'd lost 5 children. I was powerless over it and we couldn't have any contact with them. And so at that time, I remember, well, I started self-medicating.

Lance, can I ask you, did they give specific reasons for removing the children? Were they specific? Doctrine or policies?

Well, yeah, well, they, they did. Um, Tyler, who was the eldest, um, of the people, kids that we adopted, we'd, we'd gone on holiday and it was during school, school term time. Now Tyler had the intellectual capacity of a, of a 4-year-old really. Um, and we technically, we'd, we'd gone on holidays before with them, like to France and places like this. But the, uh, this particular time they said, no, you can't take Tyler out of school. Um, and so he said, okay. And, and they said, well, it can be temporarily fostered by a, by a respite carer till you come back off your holidays. Fair enough. So Tyler had gone to this place and basically I think the woman had offered him a cup of tea. Oh, oh no, he said, well, she, you know, I'd love a cup of tea but I can't. Um, and so this woman said, well, why can't you have a cup of tea? Oh, well, they won't let me. They won't, you know, right, right. And they start to paint a picture of us, you know, sort of implanting our— they knew we were Mormons, weren't we, foster carers. In, in fact, it would almost, you know, a box ticker in some respects. But anyway, this became under this woman. We were denying him stuff on the basis of our religious beliefs. And I don't— I didn't— went through all this panel and I don't do myself any favors because I can't keep my mouth shut, really. And there was on this panel, there was a woman and she were a Muslim. And they were basically questioning about, you know, inflicting my religious beliefs on people. So I said to her, I said, let me just ask you this. I said, if you fostered a kid and that kid came to your house and they wanted a pork pie, what's your stance? And that's got nothing to do with it. But so you see, I don't, and I don't do myself favors sometimes, but I won't, I won't shut up if I think something's wrong. Anyway, that was the process, and it, and they just painted this picture of us being, uh, religious fanatics, uh, who were imposing our weird religious beliefs on these children that came to us and that we shouldn't be allowed to do that, we shouldn't be foster carers anymore. And basically they took us off the foster carers register and we lost all the kids, which absolutely broke me. I mean, that, that's what led to the mental illness, to the breakdown. Um, do you want anything else on that, Ian?

Oh no, I, I'm just so sorry that you had to go through that, and obviously I'm disappointed that the church, um, when he needed them the most, they weren't there. So when, you know, when the church made that decision, then how did that impact your confidence and faith in the church when they basically— well, about you?

It shattered it because I'm thinking, well, you know, this is supposedly— this is the true church on earth. We should be challenging these things. But as I say, I came to realize, you know, that the reason that they hadn't was because they would have to explain the belief system in an open court. And let's face it, an open court in England, it would have just ridiculed a lot of things that were right. We talked, so, um, and so, and so during that period, I just couldn't take it physically. Physically, I was unable to get out to church a lot, um, but then mentally, I was, I was just, you know, sinking into despair. And I started self-medicating. I started first, I, through being an athlete, through being in the military, I'd carried injuries around all the time and I was, I've got a, well, I've still got a dodgy back and I'd been prescribed very strong painkillers for a long time. I didn't always use them every week, but but I used to store them, you know, in case I ever, you know, ran out or whatever. And so I had all the access to all these really strong painkillers, codeine-based painkillers. And so I started taking them to make me feel better, taking them in excess quantities. And then, and I don't know if you know anything about like opioid addiction, Ian, but what happens is, I mean, you build up a tolerance for it. So whereas, say, 10 tablets would initially give, you know, give you a high or, you know, help you remove yourself mentally from the situation, it increased to, you know, 15, 20, 30, you know, just ridiculous amounts. And then, and obviously then I was running out of this spare stock that I had. And I was still getting— I still had them on prescription, but it wasn't enough. So then I started supplementing them with alcohol as well, um, and I was just— I mean, that didn't help the illness, um, any, any. So it was just that, that downward spiral, and that was sort of between 2007, I'm gonna say, and 2010. And I went from We had, because a lot of my work as an opera singer had been freelance because I was a principal, you know, I was freelance. And so I'd not really got like any pension schemes or anything like that, but I'd invested in property and I got these two railway cottages that I bought and I knocked them in. So I had like a 6-bedroom house. And some land out the back. And that was going to be my— that was my retirement fund, basically. You know, I was gonna— I planned to retire at 55 and either sell up and move to the south of France where property was really cheap, or, um, basically rent them out as flats. Because where we, where we lived, it had great access to like M62, M1. So it would have— it was a lovely area. It was all tufts. And so we were gonna maybe use it as student accommodation. That was my retirement plan. And we lost everything, basically. There was a financial crash in 2008 that didn't help. I had 2 credit cards at that time, and they had £25,000 on each. And basically Nancy kept spending like I was still on, you know, £50,000 a year or whatever it was. And obviously there wasn't the money coming in since you were using these cards. And basically, long story short, we— for within about 18 months— no, no, it was 2 years, I'd say, probably, uh, we'd lost both— we lost the houses and we were living in private rented accommodation, right? So that's how quick it can go on a downward slope, really. Um, and so that was, um, that was all that wiped out.

Were you serving as the bishop at the time, or was this after the bishop calling?

No, mate, this was after. I preached group leader, I think, when all this started to kick off, right?

Okay.

Um, but, um, but as I said, I didn't go out to church. I couldn't physically manage to go out to church. I was— I had this, this postural hypertension, which But I mean, I've still got it. But if you, when you move postures, so say you go from prone to sitting or from sitting to standing, it's like your blood pressure plummets to dangerous levels and basically fall over. And so I couldn't physically get out to church. But as I said, then it became where I didn't really want to. And at about that point then, um, I think ironically Nancy got in touch with Anita, or I forget how it'd be, but we're on Facebook and one of them had sent a friend request or something like this. Anyway, got my kids, so I started talking to Anita and she was like my voice of sanity. And Anita hadn't, um, after I'd baptized her She hadn't remained active really for long, she said, since, you know, I joined the church because of you, basically. But we'd remained sort of intermittently in contact over the years, but she was still, you know, my favorite person. And talking to her, it was just like a breath of fresh air. I didn't have to, you know, feel guilty about religion. I didn't have to validate anything, really. She just let me talk. And, you know, I mean, you know what's going to come next. I thought to myself, you know, I've always been attracted to her. I'm not in love with Nancy. And so I basically, I left home and moved in with Anita. And that straight away then, in 20 moments, I realized it invalidates me now. From everything because I'm just doing this because I'm an excommunicant and I wanted to leave the church to sin. Uh, that wasn't exactly— that wouldn't be accurate. Anyway, I moved in with Anita. I got excommunicated, obviously that was going to happen. Um, but then, so I'd moved here in 2011 and Anita was still on the church records. So there was an older missionary couple in the ward that served this area. And they just come round, you know, they've got an inactives list basically, and Anita was there and, you know, she let them in because she's a kind and lovely person. And they were lovely people. They were, they were. And they used to come round and, you know, socialise with us and have meals and we'd go to theirs. Well, you know, it's the church reactivation programme. And to get us back. And I wasn't quite ready to go back, but we started going out to church again. So when we went back out to church, there were quite a lot— I mean, obviously I didn't participate much, if at all, because of my membership status. I was excommunicated. And Anita did. And then we invited the— we went out a few times and then we invited the young missionaries that were also serving in the ward, the elders. We invited them over for a meal because I've always had this philosophy that, you know, I'd hope when my lads were on missions that people would, you know, invite them around for meals and feed them. And so we'd always— I'd done it with Nancy, and so we had the— anyway, with these young lads coming around, and they were scheduled to come around this Friday evening, and they were due at 6:30, and I remember thinking to myself, you know, I'm getting re-involved with the church here, and if I'm gonna have any, you know, I'm involving Anita if I'm gonna have any. And there are things that I need to clear up. Now, we've always got things, Ian, and I'm sure this is true of us all. Some of— some people call it their shelf. I used to call it like my Mormon box. And things will come up doctrinally or, or church history-wise, and you you'll think, whoa, you know, that sounds a bit, you know, doesn't sound quite right. But then you put them, well, you know, I know the church is true, I know the Book of Mormon is true, I know, you know, and you go through this self-hypnosis process, right? And I, but I said, I'm going to investigate the church. There were two major issues at the time for me. There were a load, excuse me, There were a load, but I mean, obviously, you know, the things that put in, in, in the past— polygamy, uh, black people in the priesthood, 110 missing, 116 missing pages, that sort of thing. But this was quite two, two quite specific things that troubled me recently. One was the Mike Wallace interview, uh, with Gordon B. Hinckley.

Is that the 60 Minutes interview?

Yes.

Right, I remember watching that. Jim, you've seen that, haven't you?

I have, yes.

And the other was DNA. So this, and this Michael Wallace interview, I'll just, just, I'll just remind you, one of the things that Godmi Inkley was asked was, was this, this little quote thing that we, we'd had in, in church. This is good. You know, whenever this is when I was active in church where it says As man is, God once was. As God is, man can become. Yeah. And President Hinckley just sort of went really dismissive about this and he said, oh, you know, do we really teach that? It's just, you know, just a little ditty. I remember thinking, it sounds like— I hope we teach it because A, it's a basic tenet of Mormonism, and B, I just taught it last Sunday. So, you know, that flummoxed me.

He actually said— sorry, uh, he said, I don't know if we still teach that or teach that.

That's exactly right.

Is that right, Jim?

That's exactly right.

Yeah, yeah.

So I mean, that— I mean, to me, that's a fundamental tenet of Mormonism, is that, you know, we can become like unto God. So there was that one that I thought, I'm gonna look at this. And then there was the, the whole DNA thing. With Native American, I mean, Indians who were designated as being the principal ancestors. They were the principal— the Lamanites were the principal ancestors of the people on the American continent. And, and, and the, the, this Gordon B. Hinckley. And I thought, I'm just going to research that. And say, I'm not going to look at it through faith. I'm not going to think, you know, well, I'm going to put my faith head on and be fobbed off. I thought, I'm gonna look at this like an academic, like the academic I am. I'm looking at this in that way. And it took me, I swear on anything that I hold sacred, 7 minutes. 7 minutes of— and I use all church sources. And I turned that to Anita and I says, I've just lived a lie for 30 years. And then obviously I went on and looked further and further into it, and there were just so things that I hadn't allowed myself to think about. There were just so many things, and it was all from the church's own history, really. And I thought, there's an absolutely— I've been deluding myself for 30 years. And I went through a period of, I mean, absolute just anger. I was so annoyed that I'd given up such a large part of my life. As a young man, I'd given up on my athletic dreams. As an older man, I'd sacrificed You know, like my first degree really, which I could have got a lot better classification for had I not— had I been, you know, revising and not serving as in all these key positions and teaching seminary and institute. I did all those things that came to me that what I'd sacrificed, and I thought, you know, you've conned me. Because if the church had actually presented it to me in, in the way that reality pans out and in the way that they acknowledge it these days, I wouldn't have joined. I want to join the church. Somebody just said to me, with their missionaries, that they said first time they taught me about First Vision. Now actually, Lance, you know, this is the First Vision, uh, but there were 5 of them and he gave different accounts in each, but this is the one we've landed on. I just thought, what? Um, and, and also I'm, I've become quite interested in what I call church art. And, you know, as a mission, we used to teach you the flip chart and all that. And it's these pictures, these iconic Mormon pictures, if you like, like the one of the First Vision, you know, the two separate distinct individuals, Joseph on his knees in the Sacred Grove, uh, and also like the translations, you know, Joseph's starting— you'll know these pictures— Joseph sat in front of a, you know, gold plates, and he's, he's writing stuff down.

We know this. Yeah.

And it just all, by the church's own admission, it just didn't happen like that. And if it had been put to me, as I said, when the missionaries first came around, I thought, I don't believe it, but I owe it to myself to find out if it's true. And if they'd have presented it to me in the honest way, I wouldn't have joined. I just thought, well, you know, it's nonsense. So that was the Yeah, that was— I, I was just fuming. And I don't know if you remember, I remember you getting in touch with me and rebuking me.

So what happened is that I was talking back and forth with Nancy. I don't know how the conversation started. Nancy had mentioned that you, um, you left the church. I don't remember the details, going back a few years. And Jim, what I, what I— back then, Jim, I was very active. I think it was on the stake presidency here in Canada and felt worried about my friend Lance, uh, concerned for him, you know, his welfare, spiritual welfare. Uh, Nancy and I were back and forth. I said, look, I'll reach out to him and chat with him and try to, uh, figure out, you know, what's happening. Because Lance, you were always this, um, and still are, of course, you were just this amazing rock in the church. And now you weren't in the church, and I couldn't understand why. Now completely, you know, like you were completely immersed. And so I attempted, Jim, I attempted to try to engage Lance on some stuff. And I apologize for rebuking you. Did I rebuke you? I'm so sorry about that.

Well, no, you know, you didn't do anything. You didn't say anything to me that I wouldn't have said to somebody in my position before I left the church. So I fully knew where you were coming from. And, you know, and, and what, you know, whatever you— however much you think you, you felt about me, I felt the same about you. We reciprocated. I also thought you're a fine, fine young man who grew into a fine man, um, and I knew how dedicated you are. You served in Scotland and you had obviously had a great love for the people that you taught and things like that. So, you know, you, you're a very admirable man. And so I didn't, I didn't take it, you know, I didn't take it badly. It wasn't, it wasn't anything I didn't really expect. If I'm honest, Ian, from, from, yeah. Um, but you know, there were, there were— I remember when I, I'd been here about, I've been here about 6 months, and, um, Anita said to me, do you realize, Lance, that in 6 months these people who you've thought were your friend over 30 years, only one of them has bothered to be in touch with you, and that was John Barnsley. And I thought about that, and I thought, well, I think my initial reaction was, I wasn't surprised. I thought, well, yeah, you know, that's a church thing, really, you know what I mean? Somebody goes off and, you know, you don't want polluting by their, you know, apostate teachings and stuff. So I wasn't, I wasn't sure, I wasn't even hers. Um, but she, you know, she pointed that out, and I remember thinking, because I was starting to think, you know, outside of the Mormon bubble at that point, I'm thinking, well, yeah, that ain't normal. That isn't a, a normal thing that you do to your mate, you know. You're getting in touch, you know, and say, you know, so I'm here for you, if nothing else, I'm here for you, you know. But, but no, don't be hard. Um, and I'm back in touch with a lot now of of people, and a lot of people who have, who have left the church, by the way. Um, but yeah, it's a similar reality for, for everybody, I think, who, who goes down the route that I did.

Jim, when you hear this story, you know, you and I have had many, many conversations with wonderful guests on our podcast. When you hear Lancer's experience, what are your thoughts and feelings in terms of, um, you know, the whole thing, how it rolled out, and not Lance's experience?

Well, the first thing that just comes to mind is, Lance, you said it only took 7 minutes. I'm very curious as to what it was that you were reading in those 7 minutes.

Okay.

Right. I mean, what was it? The first vision?

Well, I typed in— not then, it subsequently became one. But as I said, the two things that I looked at were the probably more of the more recent things in my life that had caused me to, to sort of think, hang on, that doesn't seem right. And that was the, the Mike Wallace interview with, with Gordon B. Hinckley, right? And I thought, and I refreshed my memory, and that we did teach that. And as far as I'm aware, right up to the moment that I stopped going out to church, I taught that. That was a basic fundamental tenet of Mormonism. So I've looked that up and, and sort of reaffirmed to myself that I hadn't sort of dreamt it. And then the whole North American Indians DNA stuff where the wording to the Book of Mormon, which was initially, are among the, are the principal ancestors of the American Indians, and that had been changed to were among the principal ancestors. And I thought it just doesn't bear any scrutiny. And as a sort of sidebar, another thing that had come up on it was this bit about apostles. And apostles, now, when I was in the church, they were special witnesses of Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's what they are. That's what an apostle was. Now, whether or not they didn't ever make it explicit, but you and I and everybody else knows. We were implicitly taught that that special witness was they'd seen him, they'd seen the Savior. That's what a special witness was, they'd seen the Savior. And, and now they were not special witnesses, um, of Christ, of Jesus Christ, but they were now special witnesses of the name of Christ. Well, weren't we all? We're all witnesses of the name of anybody who professes to be a Christian. Is, is a special witness of the, of the name of Christ. So that didn't make them too important. It's this, this idea that we were sold, and we were sold. Didn't matter anybody says, we were sold this idea. Those apostles, they knew because they'd seen him. I mean, I don't know if you agree with that, Jim Bennett, but that was— it was never stated, but it was definitely implied. And, and, and that's what we, what we grew up with. Was that your experience, Ian? Is that what you thought? Yes. Yes. That they'd seen it?

Yes.

That they'd seen it?

It is, Mike.

What about yours, Jim?

What's your thought on that?

No, that was my experience as well. I remember sitting in a general priesthood session. My father was a United States senator at the time, so he got tickets and he would bring family members to come with him. He would get extra tickets, and we were sitting, and it was my father and my nephew and me. And my nephew said, I wonder how many times they've each seen Jesus Christ.

Right.

And my father said, once in a lifetime if they're lucky.

Right.

And I remember looking at my father and just thinking, really? Yeah, talking to him. And my nephew just couldn't accept it. He said, oh no, no, no, no, it's much more than that, right? And I mean, so I've had long conversations with people about this particular issue, and I think you're absolutely right. The implication is very strong. Yet when you talk to them one-on-one, when you actually start talking to general authorities and leaders, they will admit that they encounter God in the same way that we do.

Yes, Jim, you're right.

Yeah, they're very open about that. I mean, I've had that conversation with—

well, Jim, Jim, they're open now because they've had their feet held to the fire, but they weren't open then.

No, what I'm saying is they are open when you talk to them one-on-one as people. They are not open when they speak in conference. The implication is still— the one that keeps coming up, when I wrote my reply to the CES letter, it was right after Quentin L. Cook, an apostle, had gotten up and said, "I know his voice, I know his face." Right. And the implication was absolutely, well, you know his voice and you know his face because you've heard him and you've seen him.

Yes.

But, but, but he won't say that because I— it, it probably isn't true. I mean, there are apostles that have talked about having those kinds of unique experiences, but they are rare. And they are— I mean, I haven't heard sort of an explicit, I saw the Savior statement.

No, no.

In conference in my entire life. I've heard plenty of implications. I've heard plenty of— but I have never heard an apostle stand up and say, I saw Jesus Christ.

No.

The closest I can remember is David B. Haight. Gave a talk near the end of his life where he admitted in his talk that he had never seen Jesus.

Right.

And then he had this sort of vision where he saw Jesus. And I remember thinking when I heard that going, oh, well, I had assumed that you had seen Jesus prior to that. Yeah. So I absolutely— I don't think that your reaction is in any way surprising, uh, and it's also, I think, all, all too common. I think there are a lot of members who, who have this sort of deified version of what they think the apostles are and what they experience, and their faith comes crashing down when they realize that these apostles are men.

Yeah.

And that they encounter God the same way we do. Well, I've sort of reconciled that in my own personal faith. So when you say these things, kind of things to me, I don't go, oh gosh. I mean, it comes down, I think, to some degree to expectation, to the idea of I don't expect the prophet or the apostles to be demigods. To, and I don't expect them to have encountered God in a way different from me. So it doesn't really shake my faith when I, when I recognize that, but I absolutely can see how it shakes the faith of many who, you are absolutely right, have that implication given to them. And even if the apostles themselves aren't explicit, I've taught seminary. I taught seminary for 3 years. Uh, you know, lower down in the church, if you're in a seminary class, I can promise you, uh, all of my children in seminary class have had seminary teachers and church leaders tell them, yes, of course the apostles see Jesus.

Yeah.

Yes, of course. Uh, after every general conference, I remember hearing a seminary teacher talk about how every general conference, uh, the president of the church heads off to the Holy of Holies because he has an with the Savior where he reports on how successful conference was.

Yeah.

And I, I just don't believe that anymore. And I don't think you have to believe that, but I absolutely see where that teaching and that implication is still very prevalent in the church today.

Would you agree, Jim, that I think that one of the problems, I think, for the, for the church is that most members, the vast majority of members, don't know what the revelatory process is. Yes. Again, when you've had these, you know, you come across these things in the, in throughout church history where, where the president of the church, the prophet, he's, he's changed direction or he's, or he's you know, he's introduced something else or something's come up. Now, my idea, and I don't know how you two guys were, I thought that when you were the prophet, you received revelation thus: the Lord would tell you directly what he wants. Now, that's how I saw the revelation process.

I mean, he would show up and he would speak to you.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. So, and the reality is that that's not how it works, that, you know, it's basically, it's almost like a committee, it's discussed, and then, you know, we decide how to go forward. Because I could never understand, for example, let's take blacks and the priesthood. I could never understand how that worked, where suddenly, you know, black people are now able to receive the priesthood. And I remember thinking to myself at the time, why hadn't God told a prophet before? You know, how come this has just come for this guy? But there are lots of sort of instances like that where you— polygamy. I mean, polygamy is another obvious biggie. Where, you know, either polygamy was right or it was wrong. And so the fact that, you know, man didn't recognize it, um, shouldn't have made any difference. Um, and so I think that when you start to get into these areas, you assume, or at least I assumed as a member, that God was appearing to these guys and telling them, this is what I want, thus saith me, um, this is what I want to happen now. And obviously that isn't the, the way that is. I, I read a bit more in depth on, on that particular revelation, and, um, there were the, the quorum of the Twelve Apostles were quite split. Some of them, um, thought that it should, um, remain as it were Um, some of them, principally President Kimball, um, thought that it should change, and they had to wait while all the apostles came back. They reconvened, and some of them, you know, sort of spoke out against it, and President Kimball had the final word and said, no, this is what's happening. And I think that because— and when you understand now, once you've got that information, you can think, well, I can— all right, I can see that, that but that where that might be a justification, because if God was actually speaking to these guys, then I'm going to have to believe that, you know, he keeps changing his mind and he doesn't, you know, he doesn't actually— another recent one is the Mormon thing, the whole, you know, we don't, we don't I'm, I'm a Mormon. So you've got, you've got a prophet in Thomas S. Monson, and from 2010 to 2018, he's— I mean, he ran— it was a program, you know, I'm a Mormon. And don't know how many millions were spent on advertising, promoting, and things like this, putting media out and things. And then the next guy comes in, he said, actually, we're going to scrap that. And now you don't refer to yourself as Mormons, you refer to yourself as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I suppose if I would go back to my original, you know, personal revelation from God, I just— I'm just amazed that God didn't sort of tap one of them on the shoulder and say, you know, actually, this is it. Not change direction totally halfway through, or however many years through. So I, I, I think once you, once you get an insight into what, how the church says it does receive revelation, um, then that I suppose then opens up an avenue for an apologist. Because if God was talking to these people as a man speaketh to another man, um, then he, he's choosing to leave a lot of stuff out when he's talking to to some prophets.

Lance, we're coming to the end of our podcast. Again, I just can't thank you enough for taking the time to meet with us. I got a couple of questions and probably Jim may have a final question as well or final thought. This might be, it's an interesting question, I think. With your dedication, devotion, that you describe in your life, you know, from joining the church, serving a mission just with, just almost immediately after being in the church a year, and leadership, except commitment and devotion, uh, and your bearing of your testimony. And you made reference at the beginning about the Holy Ghost. What do you attribute that spiritual experience to be, knowing it's— sorry, the church is— you, you you've lived a lie, you've been deceived, yet you bore testimony of the church from spiritual experiences you had. So that's, you know, how do you attribute that experience, or what do you attribute it to? And the other question I have is, where are you now with your faith? So there's two questions there.

Right, well, I undoubtedly bore my testimony thousands and thousands of times because at that time I sincerely believed that it was true when at the end of that first session with the missionaries, they left me a copy of the Book of Mormon and they identified Moroni's promise. And I did exactly what they'd asked me to do. I went up to my room, I opened that up, I knelt down, prayed, and I felt like I'd received a revelation. I felt like, you know, that this warm feeling that you get is— and I thought that was a revelation that it was true. Now, so I feel a bit of a fraud now sometimes when I talk to people who will ask that very question, you know, why, you know, what changed? I think what changed was I came to realize that there are lots of things that can give me that feeling. Ian, you know, I've had that feeling on stage when I've sang a wonderful aria and people stand up and clap. You know, I had that feeling then. I suspect every Muslim you'll talk to will say the same thing, or any, you know, a lot of Christians will say the same thing, that, you know, I felt that it was true. But it's It's feelings, I suppose. Well, they were enough for me for a long time, but the evidence just definitely outstrips all that because there's so much evidence now. And not when you and I were younger in the church, Ian, there was a lot of, um, it seemed like some Christian denominations, Pentecostals particularly, they didn't have any other doctrine other than sort of anti-Mormon stuff. And some of it was patently ridiculous and made up. And so they had no real credibility. But I think it's only when you go back as a, as a church member and look at church history, that their own their own history condemns them in a lot of ways. Do you remember Paul H. Dunn? Do you remember Paul H. Dunn?

Of course, sure.

I, I love Paul H. Dunn, right? First year I were in church, Paul H. Dunn. I, I had every one of his recordings and everything, uh, and I, I, I love what he was— with the things that he was saying. But I do remember thinking This guy wanted general authority. You know, I think that might be a bit far-fetched, actually, some of this stuff. But he is. I mean, I think there was one thing that he said, I remember once, and he said he'd been, when he'd gone on the beach and he met this, he says, you know, you had to carry your weapon above the head, above your head, because if that weapon got wet, it'd backfire on you and kill you. And I thought, I've been a soldier, I thought, No, it wouldn't. No, it wouldn't. Just if that muzzle got wet, that wouldn't be enough to make it misfire and stuff. It wouldn't be enough. But he was saying it, so I took it in. But I did think a lot about Paul Edgerton, and I met him. He came to our mission when I was serving. And I'll tell you my first reaction to Paul Edgerton when I saw him. 'Whoa, didn't think you looked like that, mate.' Because all like the church publicity photographs, he's like, I suppose he'd be in his 40s or something. And look, you know, and he was, he was, he was an old man, you know. He was a, he was, you know, kind of bent over. And, and he was, and he looked to me anyway like an old man. I suppose I look like that now to young people, but he looked like, um, an old man. But then when all this came about, and, and none of it were true None of his war stories were true. None of his baseball stories were true. Not one. And ironically, it was Boyd K. Packer, who is nephew, who had done all this, all this research. Boyd K. Packer is another interesting one. I never liked that man. But Paul H. Dunn, I loved him. And when he, you know, when he fell from grace It was, it was kind of devastating in a lot of ways. And he once said, I can remember him bearing a testimony and he said, you know, if ever you doubt, young people, know this, there are some of us that know. And he left it at that. And that's, you know, and again, immediately you think, wow, he's seen him, Polish don't see him. What was the second part of your question?

Where are you now with your faith?

Where am I now? I'm an atheist. I remember when I, you know, when I, after this experience where I decided the church wasn't true anymore. And I remember the church did have a good point in that, you know, really, I think there are only two Christian churches that can have even a remote claim on being the true church. One's the Roman Catholic Church, who claim an apostolic succession from Peter to the present day. And the other is the Mormon Church, who say there was a need for a restoration because the church had fell into apostasy, and so the church had to be restored, and everything that went along with it, the priesthood and stuff, it had to be restored. And so to me, there were only— and I remember thinking, well, I don't— if I don't believe Mormonism is true, and I fell out with Catholicism a long time ago, where does that leave me? You know, because I still believed in God. But the more I sort of looked at it and things like that, and I can remember thinking one night, I don't know why it just came to me. And I remember thinking, you know, if there is a God, he's an insecure narcissist in constant need. Of reassurance and approbation. I thought, you know, if I would, I thought, I'm better than that. And all this thing geared around, you know, revering God and praising God in all things, acknowledging God's hand in all things and all that. You know, I think, well, I'm a human being. I don't need that. But so I just came to the conclusion that there wasn't a God. There isn't a God. And, you know, I'm happy for my mother, who I don't really know very well, but I've not— but she's a Christian that I think I could like to be, inasmuch as she believes in God. She believes she's going to see her parents again. She believes she's going to see her brothers and that who've died. She's going to see her husband again, they're going to be reunited. And I'm sure my mother says her prayers on a night, I know she does, she says her prayers at night, I'm sure she feels good about that. And she thinks that that's it. She doesn't go out, she's not affiliated to any church, she goes out, you know, typical weddings, baptisms, and funerals, and feels no need to affiliate herself religiously with any particular denomination. But she believes in God and she thinks that, you know, there's an afterlife. And I think that's a cool way to believe in God in some respects, because Mormonism is a very high-demand religion. Some religions are more demanding than others, but Mormonism is way up there in the demands that it makes of its members. And I think that, you know, my mother has in many ways the best of all possible worlds because she believes in an afterlife. At least she's going to be reunited with her loved ones and it doesn't, it doesn't cost her anything. Right.

Jim, any— as we close here, Lance, Jim, any final thoughts or comments from you?

Well, I'm trying to figure out how to frame this because, Lance, your story— you are clearly a man of integrity. And of intellectual integrity. And your story breaks my heart to some degree because it's a story that I've heard many times from many people, uh, who, and, and I'm just trying to figure out because from, from my point of view, I, we've said many times on this podcast, or at least I've said many times on this podcast, and I've written a book that I don't know how to get published. On this subject, but I believe that the false doctrine of prophetic infallibility is at the root of so much disaffection. And it's, I think, the greatest problem in the church today and, and ever, really, because all the things that you were taught, uh, are things that I was taught, things that Ian were taught, that was taught, this whole idea that we expect our prophets to be essentially perfect, but not even perfect. It's not even about like they're— because whenever we start talking about it in that way, we start talking about prophetic weakness and people start saying, well, no, prophets aren't perfect. They can forget your birthday. They can, you know, they can do things that are wrong. But I'm talking about not necessarily even infallibility, but inerrancy, the idea that a prophet can never preach something that is wrong. The prophet can never— it flies in the face of our core doctrines, our core doctrines of agency. What— when you start to recognize there are parts of our theology that I think allow for prophetic error in a way that other Christian theologies do not. When we recognize that we came to this earth for the sole purpose of making mistakes and learning from them, and we recognize that on an individual level, but we somehow expect the institution to be different, that the institution is gonna be perfect and they're not gonna make mistakes and they're not gonna do anything wrong, but the individuals in that institution are all imperfect and they're gonna make mistakes, that just doesn't work. I just think the church would be so much healthier and we wouldn't lose the Lance Jacksons so easily, in 7 minutes particularly, if we were to not just acknowledge the reality that the church is capable of error, but embrace that reality and say, this is what the church is supposed to be. We are supposed to learn together from our collective mistakes as well as our individual mistakes. I just think that would allow for so much more, so that when you encounter very real problems in church history and doctrine you would be able to do so in a framework where, well, that's to be expected, because at no point does Gordon B. Hinckley, when he's sitting in front of Wank Wallace, at no point is his agency extracted from him, and he can still say something that's wrong. I mean, I think Gordon B. Hinckley was probably very uncomfortable with the idea of deification. And just so, so it's kind of just trying to play it down. But that doesn't mean that that's not something we believe or something we teach. It just means that Gordon B. Hinckley, when he was sitting in front of Mike Wallace, had a human moment where he was trying very hard not to be embarrassed. I mean, I'm not trying to argue or trying to correct you or trying to say that any of your experiences here are illegitimate. In fact, quite the opposite. I think your, your experience here is something that many, many people have had and continue to have. And I think that the, the number of them is actually accelerating as time goes on, because as the internet makes information more and more available, it becomes easier and easier for people to see the mistakes the church has made over time, and more and more difficult for the church to sweep those under the rug. And it would just— it just breaks my heart that we can't, as an institution, correct ourselves in a way that we would be able to hold on to the Lance Jacksons of the world, uh, because I think the church is immeasurably poorer for not having you as a member. I think you are an outstanding human being. I think your insights are extraordinarily valuable, and it just makes me very, very sad that the church, that the church doesn't have a place for you, because I would love— I'm grateful for this opportunity to have gotten to know you, at least to a small degree here. And it's— I just think if the church going forward, we need to find a way not just to, uh, not just to acknowledge the errors that we've made and the missteps that we've made, but embrace them, take responsibility for them, because that's what we teach people to do on an individual level. That's what repentance is. And I think that institutionally we need to mimic what we teach to people individually. So I don't know if that's long or too preachy, but I mean, and so I just want to say I'm very, very grateful for you sharing all of these experiences with us. I am tremendously impressed with your life story, both professionally and personally. And I'm grateful that you have spent this time with us to be able to share that with us today.

Well, thank you, Jim Bennett. And that's very, very gracious of you to say those things. Things. I, well, yeah, it is. It's very graceful of you and I appreciate your words. I think there are two things and I hope you take this in the spirit in which I'm giving it. The idea that a prophet doesn't always speak as a prophet and I get that. That sometimes they speak as a man. I think it's cowardly at best to put the onus on an individual member to decide which is which. I think that's my first point. And I think this idea from, from Boy K Packer, um, where history is not always useful, um, I just, I just find that the most incredulous statement I've ever heard in my life of a member, senior member of an institution that proclaims to speak for God here on Earth. History is not always useful. It's sinister as far as I'm concerned.

Well, what he said was some— it wasn't just history. He says some things that are true are not very useful. Well, yeah.

And that's even worse.

Yeah.

And that's even worse, Jim. Some things that are true are not always useful. The truth ought to be able to stand on its own merit. It really— anything, you know, if the truth is uncomfortable, so what? It is— the truth is, is never anything but useful because it gives us the whole scenario of, of, of possibilities, really, that it says, you know, there This is the truth. This is the absolute truth. My wife is sat eating her evening meal. That's the truth. And no matter which way I want to spin that or put something that might not be useful particularly or whatever, but it's true. And to say that if I was out here saying my wife's here smoking a spliff, that would be untrue. The truth is always useful. Sorry, the It, I won't say the truth, it's necessary. If we can't face the truth, if an institution cannot stand up to the scrutiny of truth, then wherein lies deitel intervention?

Lance, I want to thank you so much for taking time to be with us today. I've learned so much from you. I've known you for a long time. You're a man of a great integrity and a man who is devoted to truth, to facts, and to be authentic. And I want to thank you for being that person. You continue to be just a wonderful friend and just a remarkable example. I want to thank our listeners for joining us on this episode. I hope you enjoyed that. Many things that Lance talked about we can learn a lot from. So, Langs, thank you, and also appreciate this time with you. And of course, very special thank you to our very own Jim Bennett. And Jim and I will be joining you again, our listeners, again on next week's podcast, which is another exciting episode that we've got. So on behalf of all of us—

Can I just say thank you very much. For your kind words and for your invitation. And Jim, it's been a privilege to exchange thoughts and feelings with you, so I thank you for that.

Likewise, sir. Thank you so much.

Lance, thank you. And Jim, thank you.

Thank you, Ian.

Thank you.