A Conversation with Pat Boisselle

Hello and welcome to Inside Out, the program in which we talk to extraordinary people about the Mormon Church and faith. We're coming to you from the United States and Canada with myself, Ian Wilkes, and my co-host co-host, as always, Jim Bennett. Welcome, Jim. How are you?

I am doing well. How are you, sir?

I'm doing really well. You're looking as spirited as ever.

Well, there you go. I have new glasses, which the audience cannot see, so doesn't really matter to them whether I have them or not.

Are, are they special glasses, like, uh, seer glasses type glasses?

Uh, yes. They allow me to see things that are up close.

Right, so we must look quite scary right now. And you've got Thanksgiving coming up on Thursday. It's a big, a big moment, a big event in the US where you told the Brits to get lost, basically.

That's correct.

Anyway, Jim Bennett, we're very excited about our special guest that we have on Inside Out today. In fact, my special guest is here with me, as you can see, in my home, in my office next to me. And he's a very dear friend of ours. We've known him for a long time, nearly 20 years. And I'd like to introduce and welcome Pat Boyce. Pat, welcome to Inside Out.

Glad to be here.

Okay. Well, we, you're most welcome. We've known Pat for a long time with, we know his family. We spend time with them, Jim. And he's got a remarkable story. So we're going to follow the same format that we've done with so many of our guests who've been onto the program. And we would like you, Pat, if you will, just to share a bit about your background, early days in the church, what that was like. You served a mission, for example. You're married, you have a family. There's lots of times where you had just a wonderful experience in the church. And then we'll get into that conversation. And then later on, we'll talk about some of the things that actually changed your perspective on the church and your outlook. So could you start us off, tell us a bit about your story from the early days in the church?

I guess that those that might know my name can know a little bit about what I'm going to say, but my journey starts out when I was about coming into this world. My mother was a inactive member. My father was, uh, uh, a Roman Catholic member of his church. And, uh, I had an older brother born about, uh, 2 years before me, and then I came along. And, uh, I was born in the Holy Cross Hospital in Calgary. I was born at 6 months. I went under 3 pounds. I didn't start breathing till 29 minutes after I was born. And the Catholic priest comes to my dad and says, you know, you got to get him baptized because if he dies, then it's purgatory for him. And it took about a week. And I think my dad decided, well, I might as well get the elders from the Mormon Church to come give me a blessing. So about a week later, I was given a blessing and I'm li— I lived, so I'm still here. But that, but that started my dad's journey about a year and a half or two. Uh, he finally joined the church. And so it was a big change in his life because his whole family going back all those years were all alcoholics. And, uh, my dad, uh, gave up his drinking and his smoking and And really it blessed his life, but it also blessed mine because I was taught with some good teachings and I benefited from it. My dad baptized me when I was 8 years old and have fond memories of growing up in the church in Calgary, Alberta. The chapel that used to be there was torn down, and I can still remember going with my dad as a little tiny guy, eating lunch with the other workers, and had fond memories of that building. Before my mission, I was only a block away, so I would go to Young Men's and play basketball and all that. Kind of thing. And, uh, it was when I was about, uh, 16 that the new, uh, First Vision movie came out. I think it was with that Whitaker, uh, guy. Anyway, that really hit me as far as if that's true, man, that was something. I think inside more than anything else was, wow, God talked to Somebody, Joseph Smith.

What version was that, Jim, part, that Whitaker First Vision? What year was this?

Uh, well, I think that's the one we showed on our mission.

'76.

Oh, wow. Is it the one where he holds the seeds and says, I will, I will, with an upper cross motion?

Right, right.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Okay. Yeah.

That's the last one, I think. I think they've got a new one, or they've got, they've They've had, maybe there've been more than, I think there've been a few. Yeah.

Yeah. So that video of the first vision, that version hit you.

Oh, that was, that was huge.

Right.

You know, cuz if, if that was true, wow. And, uh, I, I, I, I'd go on splits with the missionaries. Some missionaries weren't so good and they're in jail now. But, uh, I then moved to, uh, the Yukon for, uh, a few, 5 months or so, and turned 18 up there and went out with the missionaries there. And I was driving into Whitehorse to get some materials and it hit me, I'm going to go on a mission. And I think that's when I decided. And so about a year later, there I go. I'm going on a mission.

Just a question, Pat. What, you had, you had like a really great youth then growing up in the church. Lots of experiences, really good experiences, very positive. You watched that video of Joseph Smith and the First Vision that had a profound impact on you. So I've got a couple of questions. When you watched that video, how did you feel when you watched it? What were your feelings? And secondly, what was it that triggered your decision to go on a mission? Was it one particular thing? Was it the prophet telling you to go on a mission? Was it a series of things? So the two questions is, How did you feel when you saw the Joseph Smith Vision? And what were the things that helped you decide to serve a mission?

To me, the First Vision movie was just like, wow, to a young guy. If God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, that's the most significant thing that ever could happen. And I think As I thought about it, I have to go and, uh, tell people about it. I mean, I never really planned on going on a mission or anything like that, and it probably, you know, was hard for my parents because they were just in the middle of moving to British Columbia here in Kelowna, and, you know, have that burden. But, uh, it was something that I knew that I wanted to share with other people if it was true. And I guess that ties into how I feel about the church now. To tell people about things.

Well, we'll come to that very soon. So you've had this good experience in the church. You then, there's certain things like the Joseph Smith vision and other experiences triggered your decision to serve a mission. Yeah. So tell us, did you prepare for the mission? Where did you go? What was your mission experience like?

Okay, well, I didn't prepare too much about— I certainly read the Book of Mormon and things like that. I went to play basketball early morning before seminary and was too tired afterward to go to seminary. It never really interested me, but I thought, you know, I'll learn those scriptures on my mission. And so a mission really did help out, helping me memorize all the Rainbow Discussions, all the scriptures. Uh, but I really wasn't interested in, in those kind of things. Um, just going on splits with missionaries. Um, just before my parents were moving to, uh, Kelowna, uh, I got my call to Louisiana Baton Rouge Mission. So Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama. Um, and I thought, wow, that's different because to tell you the truth, I put on my papers that I didn't want to go to Quebec because that's a hard thing to do in Canada is the Quebec issue and all that stuff with the French. And, and, uh, I said, nope, I'm not going to Quebec and I'm not going to France specifically. I wasn't afraid to say it, but so they sent me somewhere in the South, which was still a foreign country. No.

And this was again, where the mission was, which one?

Uh, 1979 to 1981.

And the mission was called?

The Louisiana Baton Rouge Mission.

Okay. Is that not a French mission? Uh, French speaking?

No, no, it was, it was, why would Louisiana be French speaking?

I guess they do have French parishes instead of counties, but that's, I had the, um, yeah, French is the Cajuns.

Yeah.

There's a French, uh, the Cajuns, the French history down there. Yeah. You know. All right. Mingled with the Indians.

Any lessons on U.S. history, just call me.

Okay?

Go ahead.

So, uh, yeah, so I went to, uh, Louisiana Baton Rouge Mission. Um, I was out about 3 months. And back then you certified by being able to pass off all your discussions by memory. And, uh, That got you a bonus because you could be a senior companion, but you could also drive a car. And so, uh, I was about 3 months out and we're at the, the mission office picking up new missionaries to bring them into the mission. And I'm getting my first, uh, second companion. And, uh, I picked up some other missionaries, which included my future wife. And, uh, I remember driving her to her first area near downtown, uh, Baton Rouge. And she's lifting her, uh, luggage. I was in the driver's seat of the car and I'm watching, I'm going, why are you here? Why did you go on a mission? You don't know what you're getting into.

Nice.

But anyway, that's another story. We'll get into that, I guess.

So you, uh, you overall, your mission was a good experience for you?

Oh, I think a mission is a, a huge character changer in your life. Back then we didn't have everything paid for and whatever. You had to find your own apartment, make out a lease deal or whatever, rent, and look after your own money. And, uh, and I think I don't say about everybody, but we worked hard back then. You tracked it in the rain and the snow and the hot and the cold. Rode my bike for about 95% of my whole mission.

Was it successful for you in terms of baptisms? Because in Scotland where Jim Bennett and I served, it was grueling, wasn't it, Jim? It was tough, you know, the people that—

successful for the most part. Yeah.

It was people that did join often, not always left. So it was a bit of a— what was the numbers like in, uh, at that time in, in the mission? And did they— were they retained? Did they stay with the church? Did you teach, baptize many people?

I, I think our mission numbers before I got there, just before, were close to 3/4 of 200, so maybe 175 a month.

Oh, wow.

And then it I think near the end when I went home, they were probably down to maybe 30 to 40 a month.

Jim, what was 30 to 40? If we had experienced that in Scotland, what would that be like?

Well, mission-wide, I remember we did this big covenant to, we called it SEM 40, and we were going to have 40 baptisms, and it was just inconceivable we could have so many, and in fact it was inconceivable because we didn't hit it. I don't think we even came close. So I mean, we had months where we had 9 baptisms throughout the whole mission, you know.

So anyway, some of those numbers, when we didn't hit them, we felt so deflated, like we're big failures.

But you know, our fault, we weren't righteous enough.

Exactly right. So a lot of it was put back on the missionaries that we weren't being faithful enough or being obedient enough, and it was back on us. But your mission was doing really well then. Yeah, they had most—

35 discussions a week.

Right.

Yeah, that's quite high.

That's, that's a lot. I can count on maybe one, maybe 7, 5, 6 in a week if we were lucky. Sure.

I think there's a lot, you know, there was a lot of, a lot of pressure.

Right.

But I, I, to this day, um, the love of the people, you know, I could quote you a nice long poem that it really does it from the heart, but, uh, I'll never forget the love I had for those people that I taught on my mission. And I know one day that I'll see them again, if that's what's in the, our plan here down here. But, uh, I'll still love them just as much. I'll probably cry when I see them and say, you know, regardless of whether, I don't know, their activity in the church after or mine. That I still love them to this day. I think that's genuine, is that the love of the people is, is real.

Jim Bennett could probably feel from, you know, Pat's spirit here. This, these relationships, very similar to you and I, relationships on our mission are very dear to him. They mean an awful lot to him. He put his heart and soul, as Pat's opened up to me, just like you and I did, he completely immersed himself in his mission, loved the people. And, um, you know, those, those people are very dedicated. So you had, you had a wonderful experience on your mission. It shaped and changed your life, uh, forever, like it did us, Jim Bennett and I. What happened? You came back from your mission and, and what happened then when you came back?

Well, um, I guess first of all, going back to, uh, that sister missionary that I met, We happened to be teaching some, uh, Spanish, couple of Spanish families in, uh, New Orleans. And, uh, my wife's companion was from, transferred from up in, uh, from a South American mission for health reasons, and she knew Spanish. So they came over to help teach this family. And, uh, I don't know, there's something about her. And, uh, I said, uh, I guess when we get home, we'll get married.

And then I got transferred and, and, uh, when you said that, what did you say? What was her reaction?

I just, I don't know. Okay. So she must have been blind or something or whatever, but, uh, she went home in July of '81 and I went to, I got home in October, the end of October '81. And, uh, 3 weeks to the day exactly out of getting off of the, getting released, I was married in the Salt Lake Temple., by Elder LeGrand Richards. And, uh, that started my life.

Wow.

10 months later, I had my first daughter. Right. Right. So there's a lot of church culture there of, of, I guess, doing what is in your culture. And, uh, I've been blessed because, you know, many a nights, even last week, we stayed up till past 1 in the morning just talking about our mission. All the missionaries that we knew and all those experiences, that's something that we, we share even to this day.

Jim Bennett, you know, when you come back off a mission, because Pat's experience is not uncommon, there is a, you know, in the church, and you guys know more about this than I, because you guys grew up in the church, right? It's been in your generations for years. I'm a convert to the church, so I have a different perspective, but even though with my being converted to the church, there was pressure, you know, to serve a mission, right? Pressure to follow all the rules, pressure to baptize, and then you come home and there's pressure to get married. You know, now you're home, well done, great. Uh, you know, you have that moment of, of fame for a few seconds there when you come home. Well done, my good and faithful servant, which is great. And then you're expected to get married. Um, did you feel pressure on that? And then Jim Bennett, did you feel any pressure from members or, leaders when you came back to get married. So you go first, Pat. Did you feel any obligation to pressure to get married?

I just, I just think it probably surprised everybody.

You mean the speed? You mean?

Well, it surprised, uh, my wife's parents. Okay. Here you are. I'm gonna go get married to some guy they've never seen.

Okay.

Uh, move to a country that, uh, you know, you're not living in.

Because, because your wife is American.

American.

Yeah.

Right.

And, uh, But I never felt any pressure to do that. I think it's just, it's like having to jump off the plank, you know, it's the next thing in life and you go and do it and you get into your career choice and start all those wonderful experiences that you're going to get in the next 44 years of your life.

And so the decision to get married in the timeframe that you did, that was like a something that you felt you needed to do, you want to do, a rite of passage. Did you feel, what was your experience, Jim? Did you feel a bit of pressure or was it just kind of just a natural process?

With regard to marriage?

Yeah.

Uh, not really actually. Uh, I mean, I, I had dated a girl before my mission and we wrote each other sloppy love letters the whole time and then she dumped me right off the plane. Which turned out to be the greatest thing that could possibly ever have happened to me. I didn't realize it at the time, but I, I'm really not really, I, I had this one experience. If I had any pressure, it was coming internally from myself. You know, I felt like my life wasn't progressing And I was at the University of Southern California, and, and President Hinckley came to visit. He was not president of the church yet. He was in the First Presidency. He essentially functioned as president of the church, uh, long before he actually assumed the title. Uh, he was called as a third counselor, uh, when the entire First Presidency under Spencer Kimball was incapacitated. And he was the first counselor under President Benson when President Benson was incapacitated. So this was during that time frame. I think it would be '91, maybe. Actually, I could tell you exactly when it was because it would have been 1991. So he came and, um, he had a relationship with the bishop of the USC ward, and, uh, he got President Hinckley to come address the USC Institute. And this is a tiny, I mean, the USC Institute, the, the sacrament meeting, we have maybe 50 people there. Uh, and it was in a sort of a tiny room. It wasn't a huge chapel. I mean, here we had President Hinckley come in and he actually opened it up for questions. I mean, how often does that happen when you get a member of the First Presidency saying any questions? And me being sort of a smart. I want to say smartass, but this is a church podcast. So smart aleck. I just said smartass. So, uh, I stood up and I said, President Hinckley, I'm 23 years old and I'm still single. Am I going straight to hell? And I got a big laugh from every, from the whole place, including from President Hinckley. And his first response was, well, you may be taking a bit of a detour. Uh, which I thought was just a great, I mean, he, he was so quick on his feet and then he, he then segued into a very sort of standard answer. No, you're not going to hell, but of course everybody needs to get married because that's the crowning ordinance and blah, blah, whatever. Uh, I, I had another experience. I, I, uh, he spoke after that about the evils of Hollywood. And how terrible the media was and how un-Christlike. And I was a theater major at the time, trying desperately to break into Hollywood. And so I kept getting madder and madder and hotter under the collar as he was talking. And afterwards he started shaking hands and he came and he shook my hand and he said to me, you look like a Bennett. And I said, well, I am a Bennett. And he goes, oh, well, that's great. What are you studying? And I said, well, I'm one of those terrible theater majors you were talking about. And again, he said, well, there's always time to repent. I mean, he was just delightful. But so that's a bit of a tangent. But the short answer is really, I didn't, I didn't feel sort of institutional pressure. I certainly wasn't getting any from my parents. I didn't feel like I was getting any from the church, but I felt like my eternal progression was stalled. And I didn't get married until the ripe old age of 26, which felt like that was so old. And I look back now and go, 26, jeez, that's nothing. So anyway, that's a long answer to your question.

No, that's a great answer for sure. So you got married, it happened pretty quickly, her parents were surprised. Was this in Alberta or in BC?

Kelowna.

Oh, in Kelowna. Okay, so we're going back quite a bit. And so you're obviously going to church and what was that? Take us through the next few years. Decade or so in terms of married, you got a family now coming up, short, 10 months later you have a, uh, a baby.

The day before I was 22.

There we go, big responsibility. You're 22 years old, life has changed, right? You're, you're very young, you're in the church, and what's the next decade look like for you for the serving in the church and, and that experience?

Well, um, Taught Primary a lot, was in the elders quorum presidency, became elders quorum president, cleaned the church with my wife for almost 7 years, used to record all the broadcasts for 7 years. You know, just the typical, your life was always, always doing something.

And so you, you, uh, was the experience in the church serving, was that positive for you?

I guess, I don't know, you never even think about it, you just did what your calling was.

Did you get something from it? Did you feel some fulfillment, personal reward, satisfaction helping people through the callings?

I think it's just the same as if today, if, if let's, for example, a friend I have here in in Kelowna was to be bishop, and if he ever called me to be his counselor, I think it comes down to just caring and caring about people. You know, that's what we're supposed to do. And, uh, certainly had a lot of, uh, experiences with, uh, you know, people that I've known in the, in the ward for a lot of years and in my profession outside. That are elderly, and you're with people that you sit beside when they pass away, and things like that, you know, putting them in their temple clothes after they passed away, and experiences like that.

And Jim, I don't want to embarrass Pat, but he has a reputation in the ward, in the stake here, for being incredibly kind and helpful, and goes above and beyond, outside of any callings and if it, and if it's a cause to really help people in a real genuine way. Um, we learned that when we first moved into the area and he, he, again, not trying to embarrass him, but does not like reward or recognition and just serves quietly, privately behind the scenes, just blessing people's lives. And, uh, same for his family and his, his wonderful wife that we've known for a long time. Take us to, uh, the point then, cuz this is where I think it's gonna get interesting. Uh,, in a, in a, in a different way. Um, your early experience is very interesting, uh, and now we've come to the point where, um, you're in the church, you're serving, um, fast forward to the last few years, um, something changed. So you have this mostly, you know, very good experience in the church, um, you know, regular experience like a lot of people experience in the church, and then something part changed your outlook and perspective on the church. What was that? When did that happen? And could you get into some of the details of that? And what was that experience?

Sure. I think the beginning of it was when Elder Nelson said, you know, using the word Mormon is a victory for Satan. My wife and I just couldn't understand that. Like, you know, what is because I grew up Mormon boy is a good thing and, you know, meet the Mormons, the whole bit. And now it's, it's bad. But how can that contradict past presidents of the church who loved the word Mormon, who, who thought it was a good thing? Mormon means more good. And, uh, and then after that, uh, came, uh, the whole COVID-19 thing, I think, is what got myself and my wife, um, thinking of a lot of things because I remember, um, when we were told that it's the vaccine safe and effective and we're going, I don't believe, I don't really believe that. And so maybe there's lots of members that followed it and, uh, but myself and my wife, we never followed that agenda and, uh, But that started getting us where, um, I was supposed to go and meet the bishop with a, about a calling. And I, I get into the chapel one day and, uh, through the doors of the church and there's all these yellow stickers, 6 feet apart. And I asked them like, what is all this stuff? Oh, well, we have to have this distancing and all. I said, who, who's following all this? And so to me, I just really I didn't like that control and how the church is just following this narrative, which I inside didn't believe. And so not going to church on Sundays, cuz I didn't feel like I wanted to be around this, you know, whatever, I'll just stay home. And I guess you could watch church services over the internet, or I just started to listen to podcasts. And, uh, one of the first ones, uh, was, uh, Mormon Stories and John Dehlin. And the first one was Hans Madsen. So I was thinking, oh, well, I gotta watch all those with his, or listen to all the 5 things with his wife. And, and I learned how such a, a man who, him and his brother who went to mission on in England, you know, their, their goal was 100 baptisms and they achieved that. Like, that's huge. But how he became a, they were active in the church, you know, his whole life. And then after his mission, building up Sweden, and then how the church treated him was so terrible in my mind. It just, that just blew me away that the church that I belong to could treat someone, you know, as a leader in the church like that, who's had a second anointing and the whole bit. To me, that was just something that was un-Christlike, totally. You know, that follows along the line with Tom Phillips and the whole bit.

And Greg Prince was involved in that, Jim, wasn't he, in the Swedish rescue? We spoke to Greg Prince about that experience. Yep. And I think the back part of the background there is that some of the leaders in Sweden were going to elder man's, uh, yeah, he was the, he was the cheese for advice, right? You know, they had these questions, advice, and he didn't have any, uh, he didn't have very many answers to the question. He then went to higher up to get some answers and it was a, it wasn't the experience that he'd hoped for.

No, El Tom Perry, ho, I got the very thing in my briefcase and we're gonna nail 'em. But that was the, you know, uh, manuscript for Rough Stone Rolling from Bushmen. But anyway, uh, it was, it was the honest Mormon, uh, people like, uh, you know, Bill Reel, RFM, Nemo the Mormon, um, some of their stories. I've never learned so much of church history in my life than listening to these guys that have studied it and presented the truth, whereas the church, you know, hid things. And, uh, can you give us an example?

So you've, again, you've, you've, you were, you were troubled by the, the, uh, the change in the emphasis on Mormon. You can't use the word Mormon, victory to Satan. That really triggered you. Listen to, uh, you know, Elder Madsen's story. You started, uh, going online because of COVID because, um, attending church online, you then came across these other podcasts and you're hearing stuff that you've never heard before.

Never.

At least some, some angles that you've never heard. And you've got this traditional conventional, um, uh, narrative that the church teaches you. And we discuss this often, Jim Bennett and I, on the podcast. And then you're hearing some very different things. What were some of the specific things that was quite different than the church narrative is, because you've shared some of those things with me.

Well, um, the, the whole, uh, inventing the whole Book of Mormon thing, you know, you used to think the plates were there, and—

right, you not believe the plates were there now?

Oh no, no, I, I not at all. As a matter of fact, you know, um, just last week I was helping my daughter stuck on the side of the road because their battery in their car quit. So, uh, I went with my grandson to, uh, the Costco and got a battery. And while we're there, he's lifting out the old battery, and we put the new one in the cart, and he's trying to lift it up. He's only, you know, 12 years old. Not saying that he's weak, but you know, a battery weighs quite a bit, dead weight. And I said to my grandson, you know, that's something that I always used to question. How could Joseph Smith run through the woods? Carrying a 60 to 80 pound hunk of gold with men chasing him, not on a nice paved path, but through the woods. I could never, that was one of the things I put on my shelf a long time ago that I didn't know how that could happen. You know, but you find out all the, the church history from these podcasters, which I believe, you know, they're, I come to know, I believe they're telling the truth that the church doesn't. Teach, but it, it puts everything in a different light. And so if the whole Joseph Smith thing is just a man-made religion and a fraud, um, somehow it, it clicked in me that I don't want to have anything to do with this. Like, this is, this is terrible. My friend used to always, oh, uh, Pat the Mormon guy, you know, I'm going, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not a, I'm not that, but, uh, it, it's a, it's a seer stone. And, and that gives you questions because if Joseph Smith had the seer stone, he could have known where the 114 pages went. Um, the whole bit, right? But the seer stone never worked. Uh, if you go on in, in, uh, modern day, in my lifetime, you get, uh, the forgery. If, if the brethren still had the seer stone, they could know if the forgeries were real or fake or whatever, right?

Jim Bennett, what happened to the— it's a great point—

what happened to the seer stone? I don't know, we discussed that.

Oh, the church has— they do still have it, and they publish pictures of it. In fact, yeah. Yeah, when they published that picture, a lot of people were sort of shaken by that because it's really just sort of an ordinary rock. There's nothing particularly notable about it, and we don't have any stories of any later prophets or leaders trying to use it for any purpose. And the narrative that, that I grew up with, and I'm sure, Pat, you did too, is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by looking through, um, these spectacles that were the Urim and Thummim that were attached to a breastplate. You can even see church artwork that shows him looking through these spectacles. And so I had always envisioned, okay, he's looking at these gold plates with these spectacles, and he's— the gold plates allow him to to understand the characters that are on the plates. And the church has, um, the church has now released essays and has talked publicly about the fact that that's not how it happened. How it happened is that Joseph Smith used the seer stone, put it in a hat, and looked in the hat. And, uh, you know, there's still a lot of controversy on that. I, I know that my mission president Joseph Fielding McConkie. The first time I ever heard about the seer stone was from him when he was saying it didn't happen, because the main sources that we have that talk about it are David Whitmer, who was disaffected from the church when he started talking about it. But historians have looked over the record and determined that friendly, um, accounts also reference this, the rock in the hat, which has, you know, shaken up so many people. And it was featured in that episode of South Park. And, you know, Joseph Smith was called a prophet. Dum dum dum dum dum. Have you seen that one, Pat?

Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah.

And he's looking in the hat, you know, and this shakes up a lot of people. And And I, Pat, I mean, as we talk about this and as you talk about this, which are you more concerned by? The, the, the actual events that are different from what you were raised to believe, or are you more concerned by the fact that the church didn't tell you those things. Because in my— I, I, I'll— maybe I'm poisoning the well here if I— but from what I can tell, a lot of people, or I'd say the majority of people that go through the kind of faith crisis you're talking about, uh, are less concerned about the fact that the rock in the hat is weird than they are about the fact that the rock in the hat is something the church didn't tell them.

Um, yeah, of course we, we never were taught any of that, but my other friend here in town's dad used to be the recent temple president in BC, and he said, oh, the, the church has always been truthful about all those things. And they haven't, because we didn't teach that on our mission. There's no way. Uh, I, but I, I think the biggest thing for me not only I, I know more back of church history, Joseph Smith's time, the whole thing leading up to Brigham Young. The big killer for me is the present-day 15 of the church who have been accused of, and I'm sure you can come either way of, yeah, they are liars, that their integrity really is, I find, not there. And that's the hardest one for me was it's, it's what the church is now with the leaders and what they've been accused of and what they do to me shows that Jesus has nothing to do with the Mormon church at all. Maybe, you know, good things, people can believe in Jesus, whether they're Mormon or not. But as far as the church being, uh, guided by Jesus and he's at the helm, I can't believe that.

Well, would that be things I'm going to accuse them of? I mean, can you, can, can you be more specific on that? I mean, what, what is it that they've done that makes you believe that?

Oh, they're, uh, if you go back to the Arizona sex abuse scandal, uh, if you listen to some podcasts with Tim Kosnoff, who probably knows more about the church than most members do, uh, their policies there are something you say, well, is Jesus behind that policy or not? He couldn't be. You know, if the church says, uh, we're pleased with the outcome that they don't have to, uh, provide information to the, the young women that were, you know, a part of the suing the church. And they're pleased with the outcome. To me, that's really, that's really bad.

That's, that's a terrible— we're recording this right after the news has broken that Wade Christofferson has been arrested. This is President Christofferson's brother, although I, it really isn't fair, I think, to blame, uh, someone's brother for the, the crimes Uh, but I'm sorry, say again?

I said that's someone's individual choices that they've made. You know, I won't be responsible for Adam's transgressions.

Right, right. I, well, I mean, just what about the SEC scandal?

You know, okay, you get the latest apostle that's called the, the French guy, uh, Gerald Yeah, because, uh, you know, and he knows all about it. That was a really shady thing, I think. Um, and we consider the matter closed because it's like they don't have to follow even the laws of the land. You know, someone, someone knows about all that. And, uh, you know, you're asking temple recommend interviews if you're honest with your dealings with your fellow man. Which back in my day had a lot of emphasis on, are you paying your income tax? Are you honest with your, your government? Right? So if the church isn't honest in that regard, that's pretty terrible. Especially if you have a, you know, the 1-800 number, the helpline to, you know, cover your tracks through a lawyer so that, you know, everything's all in confidentiality. To me, I don't think Jesus would have any part of that.

And on the Wade Christofferson, Jim, uh, per my earlier messages that I've got questions about, I know it's not Elder Christofferson's fault, we're not blaming him because of his actions of his brother, but did he and the church know about Wade Christofferson? You know, was this going on? You know, were the police involved, et cetera? What's the full story? And there may be, the church may have acted appropriately, but, you know, I think there are lots of people asking questions about what's going on. And then of course, when we read the posts online, there are people in the church who, from their reaction, think this is inappropriate to talk about online. I've read the comments. They don't, some members don't want this to be discussed. They don't want to be online and They, they think it's inappropriate. And so again, it comes down to that transparency, accountability. And are there any other specific things then that actually, uh, triggered your faith crisis? You talked about the name of the wrong church, the SEC fine, and the church did something wrong. You don't get fined for no reason at all. You don't get fined by the government.

No.

Unless you've made a mistake. Right. And so then of course the, uh, you know, you mentioned Arizona, uh, coverup, et cetera. Is there any other things that you could speak to?

You know, uh, the CES letters, gospel topic essays. I mean, there's tons of those things that for the average member that's, you know, taught not to be a lazy learner, there's so much more to learn that the church doesn't tell you.

Right.

You know, um, whether it's Holland or whoever else getting caught in lies, Um, you talk about the BBC interview. Oh, BBC, or, you know, the church didn't want to spend one cent on, uh, proclamation, uh, aid or whatever in California to how fast the church is growing. It's all those things. And as far as, as far as what happened to me was I'm a very, uh, studious kind of person. I've, you know, I like to study this, a lot of church stuff, Skousen, Benson, communism, socialism, government. Um, so I knew having all this new knowledge from sitting back for the COVID years, there is no way that I could go to my local church in priesthood meeting or Sunday school and say, hey, wait a minute, I have this question. Uh, you know, eventually they'd excommunicate me. And I thought, well, before the church ever, ever excommunicates me, I'm quitting. And I heard about Quit Mormon, and, uh, I've thought about it for a while. And like we were talking earlier, Ian, if you don't have integrity, you don't have anything. You can have all the money in the world if it was made through, uh, non-moral means, right? Cheating people or whatever. You have your reward, but you're really worth nothing. And so my own integrity was, I want to keep my integrity. I didn't want my name, uh, on the rolls of the church, but I didn't want them to go and give me this, the stigma in the church. You know, you're excommunicated. That's bad. I do not ever want that to happen to me. And if it did happen to me, it'd be like, you know, the Nima the Mormon getting excommunicated. He was one of the most outstanding, upright defenders of what is true that I know. You know, just like opposing the leaders. Well, we're, we're, we're asked to do that, right? And so the church got rid of him when he was a good guy. There's no way that I was going to get the same kind of thing. Um, so I quit through Quit Mormon and, and I'm happy about that. But I, I liken it then to this, like, you know, every church, every civilization, they have their culture. And to me, the church has just got a culture there that Mormons just are in. They don't, you know, change. That's the way that it is. But I, I liken it unto now that, uh, let's say the, the, the neighbor guy that you grew up with, send your kids over there and no problem. But if you find out the neighbor guy is a pedophile, that instantly changes things. It changes the relationship. You want to protect your kids. You want to warn other people because you love other people. And so I am become some angry, you know, Mormon podcaster guy is that I would warn other people like, wait, before you ever think about the Mormon church, well, come and ask me or even my, you know, grandson or something, uh, come and talk to me because there's things there that the church doesn't teach. Which we can, you know, agree that the church has left out a lot of things that it doesn't teach you. Um, and so if I loved my fellow man, I'd have to tell him, hey, think twice about Mormonism, or at least get the truth because the church isn't going to give it to you. And I guess the hardest part, um, in finding out things that are true, it's not an easy thing. My wife and I have, over the last 5 years, shed many a tear. And, uh, one day sitting there on the couch and there's my wife and we're talking things, probably listening to a podcast. It hit me here. I've, I've taken my name. I know it's still there, but I've taken my name off the records of the church. But yet my wife still attends because she loves her Primary kids. But I just threw it all away. What does that say to her? You know, like, honey, I didn't, I didn't realize, like, you know, I just did that to our relationship eternally. But I, I'm thankful that I have a, a wife that, uh, also, and that's what, uh, drove me, you know, to something different about her to choose her as an eternal, uh, earthly companion was that she has morals and integrity. And I'm lucky that we're on the same page, even though she still teaches primary out of the love of her primary class. But we're on the same page, even though that, you know, we both cried our eyes out Wow, does this ever hurt? And I tell people, you know, leaving the church, if you really were in there and you really knew what the deal is in leaving, it's painful. It hurts. You're like, you know, I've been deceived on a lot of things, but you have to move on. But in moving on, I'm at ease with myself. I know that, uh, there's a bigger plan, I think more than the Mormon plan of salvation. I think more that, uh, people's worth is greater than what we might think, you know, our covenant path or whatever. Uh, there has to be a, a, a purpose for the whole thing. And if there is a God, which I believe, I hope, that's our hope, um, he's got to love us more than we can even imagine. And I think that's where you come to with your background of your, in your church life that builds you as a person. Your love for your fellow man is greater, I think, than even when you're in the church.

We know your wife. She's a lovely person. Can I ask, Pat, has any, anybody in the church or any leader in the church approached you since you resigned your membership and asked you, you know, your thoughts and feelings and can they help you? Have they even asked why you made that decision to leave the church?

Well, just like off a Mormonism Live broadcast from a couple Wednesdays ago where they had a bishop and his wife on that joined the church in 1979 or 80, they're married. They asked him the same question. And he said, no one. And, uh, no one. I mean, I, I've known you, Ian, for a long time. And certainly when you leave the church, you kind of wonder like, you know, what's up with that? Because you're still in the church. Um, and maybe some things that you say are kind of like, oh boy, yeah, that's kind of scary, you know. But, uh, as I've known you and I know what I've gone through, uh, I wish one thing that it could be different, that you and I are still knowing what we know, but in the church, because we'd sure give them heck giving them all these questions in the meetings. But like I said, you know, it wouldn't be fair to get kicked out of the church. But, uh, I understand now where you come from. I understand where so many that have had questions that have left good people, um, where they come from. And, uh, I appreciate it a lot more. Yeah.

I, I, I think you're incredibly brave, you know, opening up because this is going to help. Jim, when we, before we met here today, Pat and I spent some time preparing for this conversation and I reminded Pat that he hears the, um, would help so many. I think it's so sad and unfortunate that good people like Pat, Jim Bennett in the church, who've got honest, faithful questions, good people, good hearts that want to do the right thing, that expect the church to be right and be honest, that want to love and want to serve, have questions, find themselves going through this experience that Pat and I have gone through. And it's heartbreaking because you gave everything, um, to the church and you said, I think you feel let down, you feel deceived and it, it's broken your heart.

It hurts. It does hurt. You know, I got, you know, my sister and I got two brothers that are, well, you can say active or not, whether they go, but my other brother that's been a bishop and the whole bit. It's just something that, you know, I'm not afraid to say. But it's something in the church that you just don't associate or just, it's different. It changes relationships with people that are still in, really.

And that goes to my, uh, uh, other questions. Have, uh, your family, family and other friends, have they, has those relationships changed in any way at all?

All I know is that my mom, who's— my dad just recently passed away and my mom passed away 12 years ago. I know that my mom loves me and I would think that she would understand where I'm at. Out of anybody, my, my mother would understand it, I think, cuz she was a very loving person.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. We, we've said earlier, Jim, you and I on the podcast, that the church puts a lot of resources into proselyting, converting, training missionaries, uh, inviting, befriending members coming into the church, um, calling new members, giving them assignments, responsibilities, keeping them in, um, having them commit, uh, you know, pay tithing, go to the temple. Huge amounts of resources in respect to that. And the whole teaching program, teaching and learning program as it was taught to me, And then when people have, uh, difficulties with, with questions of faith crisis, there's almost no resources then. Well, look at how they, tell me opposite.

Look at how they treated Hans Mattson. The first thing when they met with him, and that was, uh, L. Tom Perry, you're either in or you're out. That was it. But they didn't answer the questions. You know, you get the people asking. Bishops, to ask the stake president, to ask him, and how they treated a person like that is terrible. There's another example. I don't know where the, uh, a recent one about a year and something ago about, um, I don't know if he's Ukrainian or something like that, but he used to be the voice translator in the temple films for the temple. But he married an American wife and he, he, I guess, moved back down Salt Lake area, wherever, some down there. And, uh, he started to have questions. So he'd ask questions in his testimony meeting, bring up things, and they, you know, told him to not do that. And the church even sent the police to his house and they threatened him like, hey, we can get it so that on your visa of whatever. You can get kicked out of the country. Why would a church treat people so poorly? Because I don't think that's how Christ would treat people, you know.

Jim Bennett, do you see any evidence of the church putting some resources into helping people, uh, navigate their faith at all? Because this is a, this is that thread that runs through our you know, entire conversations in almost everything we do is, you know, uh, people have got questions, they struggle, they need help, and there's no help there, or very little help there.

Um, I actually do see the church improving in this regard, in the— but again, it's very slow. Uh, it's— I mean, I see the Joseph Smith Papers as an act of almost radical transparency, but it's not something that the rank-and-file members of the church are aware of. I mean, I had a conversation on Twitter just today with somebody who said— I had actually said, my post was, look, I theoretically, I accept the possibility that there are people who leave the church because they want to sin. However, I have never met such a person. I don't know such a person. Pat, I'm assuming you're not such a person.

I hope not.

Your decision wasn't, geez, I really want— And this guy was like, oh no, they say they're interested in historical stuff, but they really do want to sin. And he said, like, somebody said to me that the church, you know, I have a problem with the Book of Abraham. And he wasn't serious because he wouldn't read this huge Hugh Nibley book I gave to him. And I said, well, what do you think that Hugh Nibley book would have said? Well, it would have told him that the papyrus that the church has is not the papyrus papyrus that the Book of Abraham was translated from. And I said, well, you've got a problem in that the church has admitted that the papyrus that they have is what they translated from. You can see that in the Joseph Smith Papers in the volume on the Book of Abraham. They go through the Kirtland Egyptian papers and match up with, uh, the translation of the Abraham, that doesn't fly anymore. The Hugh Nibley— I have great respect for Hugh Nibley, uh, and I think, uh, he's done great work and I rely on a great deal of it. But with regard to the Book of Abraham, uh, he was wrong on this point. And it was just, what are you talking about? I mean, he had no idea that this had happened or was happening. I mean, I— Pat, your story sort of breaks my heart because it's an all too common story, and it's such, in my mind, a preventable story. And the— it's not— I mean, from my perspective, um, I mean, all of the things, all of the things that you've talked about with regard to the church, you know, the STC scandal and, and, um, problems, particularly on the local level with regard to sexual abuse. I mean, I, I have a hard time laying that at the feet of, um, of the, the 15 men in the, in the Q15, although the policies and the hotline, I mean, I, there are all kinds of problems. I mean, I'm not trying to downplay any of these, uh, but, but from one of the reasons why I stay in this church church, knowing all of those things, is that I don't expect— I mean, Pat, you kept saying things like, well, I expect Jesus wouldn't do that. This isn't what really I expect Church of Jesus Christ to do. And I, I think that's the reaction of so many people. And I think if the church were to manage expectations and let people know, look, this isn't the program. The program is not that we are these saintly perfect people from Mount Olympus that don't make mistakes and are incapable of sin, and the church is incapable of making mistakes, you know, other than little tiny minor ones. Uh, if the church embraced the idea that fallibility and error and sin, even, all of those are central to the mortal experience. We came to this earth in order to learn from our mistakes. We came to this earth knowing that sin would be part of our experience. And we somehow, uh, and we, we, we understand that on an individual level. And then when we sort of try to translate that into, we somehow pretend that the institution is immune from that, that the institution never has to repent of any of its mistakes, never has, never really can make serious mistakes. If there's ever a problem, it's always the individual's fault. It's never the church's fault. I, what I'm saying is the problem I think is solvable in the sense that if if the church were to own up to the mistakes that it makes and say to its members, look, we're doing the best we can, but we are mortal, uh, we experience God in the same way that you do, we don't have secret meetings in the upper rooms of the temple with Jesus every Thursday. Yeah, I mean, if they were to be upfront and honest, I think there would be a short-term, uh, sort of explosion of people who are, are disillusioned. And a lot of them may be people who right now are considered sort of the most rock-ribbed, stalwart members of the church. But long term, that approach is really the only way forward. It is the only way that the institution institution can maintain and build trust, particularly in the rising generation, because we're all of a generation, uh, where separating from the church at this point in our lives is a huge, massive, painful thing. Whereas the rising generation now looks at it and goes, what? What? I'm, I'm supposed to hate gay people? Well, I'm not gonna do that. And they just walk away. You know, the old adage, you can't, you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. The rising generation is leaving the church and they're leaving it alone. They're just walking away and that should terrify us. And we keep acting like we can postpone that day of accountability indefinitely, that we can indefinitely pretend that the church doesn't make mistakes. And we just, we can't do that. I mean, the church really just has no choice but to own up to all of this. And, and the thing that just drives me crazy is that, uh, it would be so good for the church, it would be so good for the missionary effort. I mean, it would be sort of embracing the, the theology that we teach, that I've been taught since the day I was born. This whole idea that mortality is, you know, the place where we learn the good from the evil. And so anyway, Pat, I have tremendous respect for you. I— my heart breaks for you because I know that leaving the church or finding out the church is not what you thought that it was. Uh, that's devastating for so many people, and, and the fact that you're willing to share that experience with all of our listeners and with us, I'm very, very grateful for you being willing to do that.

See, that's the thing I understand, is that the original story of the church, if you just take it simply, a plan of salvation, that makes sense. I could go on my mission and tell people that makes sense. And if God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, great, that's the most wonderful thing. But once you start thinking of it in terms of policy, uh, discernment, whether the 15 are actual true prophets, seers, and revelators, and that we're always taught that Christ is at the helm. Well, if Christ is perfect, the only perfect man that ever existed, and he has an organization of imperfect men, but how they act in relationship to, uh, taking upon him his name and representing him, there's no way they're going to be imperfect in those policies or how they act. So the only conclusion you can come to when all these questions Just like, you know, we don't follow the dead prophets or the new ones. Well, if Brigham Young was a racist, well, well, that was his culture. Well, wait a minute. Is God a racist? Is Jesus really pleased with the outcome of the sexual abuse, you know, the lawsuit? Is he really pleased with that? And so those, those are, I think, questions that I think eventually any true believing member, when you put it all together, you go, there's something on my shelf. And whether you're still in the church, but you have it on your shelf, how can you reconcile that Jesus is at the helm? So the only thing I can conclude is that since the beginning of time, God doesn't get involved in the most terriblest things that can happen to, uh, uh, an unborn child, to the living. He doesn't get involved in religion either. And so far I have a faith that Jesus Christ was who he was. But other than that, all the churches from the Catholic one on down are just man-made religions. Which I believe, if you think about religion, like the separation of church and state, you know, that was a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to his friend, but ideally, the world would be a better place. Just like on my mission to the South, you know, there's churches almost on every corner. If we just believed, even if we believed in Jesus Christ or what, not, or a faith that believed in another identity or entity, if we just believe the basic things like the Ten Commandments, it would make the world a whole better place. And just because it's a church that you're involved in culturally, to me, it's just another man-made religion that it has its heart set on money. And to control its members and the narrative. And so I think if you think about all the things on your shelf, honestly, there's only one conclusion, I think. There's a God who loves us all, and I don't persecute someone that's a member just because they're a member of the church, but he that is warned must warn his neighbor. And so I went on a mission to tell people, hey, the church is true. The field is all white, all ready to harvest. But when you find out it's just a church that is man-made, it has its desires on money. I think, you know, the problem with— I agree, the church could just— the simple plan of salvation alone and kept with principles without the Twelve lying and cheating man, a lot of people join the church. You could fix a lot of the problems within the church and non-members in their family. Just allow them to go to the temple ceremony and watch. What greater thing than welcoming them in there and say, oh, well, it's polluting the temple. Well, if the members of the Twelve or any of the other stake presidents or bishops or people attending are immoral just because they haven't been caught yet or judged. What's the difference? But that would sure change a lot of the dynamics as far as the non-member witnessing that marriage of their daughter or son in the temple. They go, wow, they're not hiding anything. This was really neat. I'd like to learn more about this eternal thing. And I think that I think the church's worst enemy really is the leadership of the church. Their policies, what they hide, you know, like Ballard and Oaks. Oh, we've never hid anything from anybody. Well, of course they do. They do it all the time. And so that's what really hurts as a member that have been taught all these things that has faith that these, these men are all good. When you find out, wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. And there's no way that even the policies could have Jesus's signature on the bottom that that's what he approves.

We're in the same room together, you and I, Pat. I feel your spirit. I feel your sincerity. Uh, I know your character. I know the good man that you are.

And you and your, you know, I, I don't wanna, you know, I have nothing against Jim Bennett. Um, by the way, I have, uh, a bishop back in the 1970s where we used to kayak with my dad and my brothers and our bishop. His name was, uh, Jim Bennett, uh, as our bishop growing up in Calgary. That was me.

I didn't know there was two Jim Bennetts.

You'd have to be about, you'd have to be about 90-something years old now.

I, I wear my age well. No, I don't feel like you have anything against me. I don't, you don't even need to say, you haven't said anything that, that would make me feel that.

It's my character. I don't really want to hurt anybody's feelings or, you know, you know what I mean? Um, that's respect to you as you're still in the church. That's great. Maybe one day you won't be, but that's great too. Um, this is just my narrative of what I see it. In a different light. You know, where much is given, much is expected. How should a true prophet, seer, and revelator, if that's what they are today, how should they really act? And how would Jesus act? Would he really say, you know, we're pleased with the outcome? When if you read all the history of the sex abuse scandal in Arizona, what happened to those babies and kids for those years, and the church did nothing because of their policy, I don't think Jesus has anything to do with it. Because if he said, you know, the guy who hurts the little ones, it's better if their millstone be around their neck and hucked in the ocean or whatever, he's serious. And I don't think anybody who represents him in that way would even be acknowledged by the Savior.

We're coming to the end of the podcast here. Uh, Jim, do you have any final thoughts or comments?

Uh, just thank you very much, Pat, for sharing your story, and, uh, we wish you well. And, and it's been very nice to meet you and visit with you.

Well, if you're in town sometime, you can— we'll, we'll go on a motorbike ride.

Okay, absolutely. Let's do it. The three of us, the three amigos.

Like you went up to the top on Little White Mountain.

We did. We went over there, didn't we? It was fun. And I just want to say, just to add to what Jim Bennett said, how extraordinarily brave and courageous you are to come on here to share your thoughts and feelings. As I said earlier, I feel your spirit. I know your story. I know the good people that you and your wife are and your family are. You're a good man, Pat. I know that. This, this has really devastated you. It's hurt you and not quite broken you. I don't think you still got much to give and you're trying to find your way forward. What's interesting, just before we give you the last few comments here, Pat, it's interesting, Jim Bennett, that earlier just now with Pat, that he was talking about the church. Just what I got from that was, why can't the church just follow the baseline stuff,, right? The basic stuff. Yeah, you can allow them to make mistakes in certain areas, like operational or programs or maybe policies, maybe didn't get it quite right, but the basics, the basics, right? Let's get that right. And if they can't get the basics right, what does Christ really think about that? That's what I got from those comments. Do you want to close us out by giving us any final thoughts or feelings or comments from you, Pat.

Hmm. I would say just, uh, follow your heart. Don't be a lazy learner. And, uh, love your family and your fellow man. And be, uh, I guess, do as much good as you can. Because I think whoever made this whole thing, that's what it's all about. Whether you're Mormon, Catholic, or anybody else, I think that's what— one day we're out of here, and, uh, I think we're going to find out whatever it's all about. And I think it's got a lot to do with, uh, morals and integrity and doing as much good as you can.

Pat, on behalf of our listeners, I want to thank you sincerely for coming onto our program to share your thoughts and feelings. You're a wonderful man. We love you and appreciate you. You're a good man, Pat.

Maybe I'll get my wife on here one day.

Maybe we'll get your wife on here. We know his wife and we love her too. And we're so grateful for you coming on. Jim Bennett, as always, grateful to you. Your insights, your contributions, as always, are just remarkable. So, and to our listeners, we want to thank you for listening to this experience. We hope you got as much from it as we did and that it will help you in some ways or another. You know, we've said If there's one thing that we can do or share with, you know, with, you know, on a podcast that can help someone, how great will be our joy. Yeah, just here to help people, right? So Jim Bennett, thank you. Pat Bennett, thank you. And to all the listeners, thank you. Until next time.

Thank you both.