A Conversation with TJ Hoisington

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the podcast that takes a pragmatic and balanced, balanced look at the Mormon Church of Faith. My name is Ian Wilkes, am I, and I'm here with my partner in faith the advisable Mr. Jim Bennett. Jim, how are you today?

I am advisable. That's a fine adjective to begin with.

You know what it means?

I'm easily advised?

I'm a sucker? It means you're a sucker. That's what it means. Yeah.

Good, good, good.

Well, it actually is better than that. It means that you're considered to be wise and prudent. Indicating a good course of action that is recommended and beneficial.

All right. Oh, I'll take it. That works for me.

And I think that fits really well with you. Jim Bennett, we have on this episode a very, very special guest indeed. We have the one and only TJ Eisington. TJ, welcome to Inside Out.

Thank you for having me on your podcast. This is awesome. Let's have some fun, huh?

Absolutely. Did I pronounce your last name correctly? Maybe with a British accent, maybe not.

A little bit of a British, but I'm easy. So it's Hoisington. Yeah, TJ Hoisington.

Hoisington. I can say in my Sean Connery, Hoisington.

That's good.

Welcome, TJ Hoisington. Well, TJ, thank you. And so excited to have you with us. So a little bit of an intro to TJ. TJ is an authority in the area of personal and professional development, high-performance leadership. That's what he does professionally. He is the author of several books, including an international bestseller, If You Think You Can, and the other bestseller, The Secret of the Slight Edge. TJ is also the host of the Unleash Your Greatness Within podcast. Which has reached number 1 on Apple Podcasts. As part of the podcast, TJ interviews top performers and legendary thought leaders on areas of high achievement and leadership. TJ has given over 1,000 keynote speeches around the world. He helps people and organizations unleash the greatness within. He lives in Washington with his family, married with 4 children, and he has 2 grandchildren. On an additional note, I met TJ a number of years ago when I was serving on the stake presidency, and TJ came highly recommended from somebody that you and I know really well, Jim Bennett, Elder Stephen Wrigley.

Oh, sure. Yeah.

So I was tasked with organizing a stake— I think it was a YSA event, TJ, or youth event, if I remember rightly. Going back a few years, we were looking for amazing speakers, inspirational speakers that could motivate and lift and build up the youth and the YSA, so that could really be catching and engaging. And so because I wasn't available, we thought we would— that was a joke. That was a British joke. Yeah, we thought, we thought TJ could make second place.

And I do enjoy taking second place.

It's fine. Trust me, I'm— it's not second place to anyone. It's me that's second place. So I reached out to some old companions, friends, and Stephen Wrigley, who TJ's known for a long time, said, hey, we've got this guy in our stake who's amazing and he connects with people on spiritual levels, personal levels. And so, and so he said that TJ Hosington would be interested, I'm sure. So TJ and I connected through Stephen Wrigley. And Jim, you've known Steve really for 35 years. We all served together in the Scotland Edinburgh Mission, TJ. So Jim is from— I met Jim in the mission in Scotland about 30, 35 years ago or thereabouts.

Right.

And Stephen Wrigley was a missionary at the same time. We all know Stephen. And that's how I got introduced to you. So you and I connected and you're amazing and very kind and very generous to it would be time. And you came up from Seattle and you stayed here at home. And I took you to the back of my motorbike.

I have a picture of that. Yes, I remember.

Harley-Davidson, right? And I think I was a learner. So anyway, you survived. And you did some series of workshops and you spoke at the state, I think it was a regional conference, I'm not sure, a state conference with our youth from Wesley. And it had a profound impact, Jim, on on the, not just the kids, the youth, but adults, you know, I attended, it was just a message for everybody. People felt stronger, better, uplifted, inspired, motivated. Like, look, if you put your, if you think you can, according to, you know, it's titled, uh, TJ Chaitlin's best-selling book. If you think you can, you know, you can. If you apply yourself, get a good education, you motivate yourself, you can achieve almost anything. And TJ has built up a successful life and career and an extraordinary reputation in the church, being a great leader. It is like a, you know, the General Authorities who— I'm not talking about a regular General Authority. I'm not sure if there is such a one, but a General Authority that absolutely blows you away, right? Not just, you know, just a typical General Authority, but someone who's really inspirational and just you feel like you could take on the world. Well, TJ is that kind of person, and he's helped me in those messages. He won't know this, but he certainly inspired me. So I hope I've not embarrassed you too much there, TJ, but you fit that description, and it's just an honor and a privilege to have you with us today. And so we wanted to talk to you about, you know, your life, your experience with the church, leadership of the church, you know, what makes, you know, how can we achieve greatness you know, do we have to— do we— how do we deal with challenges and weaknesses and vulnerabilities in life? How do we get motivated? And your experience teaching and working with countless professionals and individuals in your life, could you give us a little bit of background, a bit of chronology, you know, you growing up, church, give a little bit of context in your background, and then Jim Bennett and I will, you know, chat, just have a natural conversation. We'll see where this goes. Is that— is that work for you?

Sounds great. That sounds great. Um, well, first of all, thank you for letting me come on your show. This is awesome. Thanks for reaching out. And wow, what an introduction. So this is— this is going to be a fun little podcast, and we'll touch all those bases as we go through it. So chronologically, um, I grew up in the church. My dad was a convert to the church, uh, because of my mother. I think they were high school sweethearts. And so I grew up within the church and loved it, served a mission at 19 years old, went to Taiwan for 2 years. I love the people of Taiwan. It was a great experience for me. Then I came home and one of my companions said, hey, there's an opening to work for Senator Hatch. And at the time, it was Senator Hatch and Senator Bennett. And right, right, Jim. And I remember working with Hatch, meeting Jim. I think it's your dad. Is that correct?

That's right.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And so I worked there in the Dirksen— I think it was the Hart Building, or I think it was the Hart Building or the Dirksen Building, whatever. And I worked in Washington, D.C. for about 9 months. And then some folks approached me to start a little, uh, home security system business, which I decided to jump on as an opportunity. And in Utah, we started the first home security systems where you could just pay the monthly fee and get all the equipment for free. And that was good 30 years ago. And that took off and became really successful. And then that led me to eventually work for Tony Robbins. But before we get further into that, let's stay a little bit on maybe some of my childhood, if you wouldn't mind. And I don't normally share this, so this will be new to— probably everything about me is new to some of your listeners. But in 1986, my dad, my dad was in the Army, and in 1986 I was 12 years old. And, uh, Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan were in the White House at the time, and they had something that was called the Greatest American Family. Now, your audience can't see it, but I'll show you guys. So when I was 12 years old, we were flown— our family was flown to the White House. And here you can see Nancy Reagan with my family. Uh, there are 8 kids in my family. There were 7 boys and 1 girl. And standing there on stage with Nancy Reagan as she awarded us the Greatest American Family Award. Here I— here's a picture. Sorry for you that are listening to this, you're not seeing it. But here's a picture of Nancy Reagan shaking my hand as a 12-year-old. And I kind of grew up in a world, if I'm being very authentic and real with you, where I thought I grew up in the best family in the world. I thought it was perfect. And without going into detail, so I'll be very respectful here. But when I was 30 years old, my parents had been married about 36 years, and my dad left mom. And that broke— that kind of broke my reality for just a little bit and took me a while, probably a good 6 months to a year to recoil from the disappointment and the hurt and the pain. Now, fortunately, I— that this happens to a lot of people, so I'm not alone in this space. But fortunately, I was married and had 2 kids, young kids at the time. And so I had somewhere to pour my focus into. And so I think in life, it used to be when I was growing up, I used to get frustrated with adults who would say in sort of a quip way, they would say, life isn't fair. I would tell people about my dreams, right? I'm one day going to be a motivational speaker. I'm one day going to do consulting inside corporations, or I'm going to be an author, right? These were all original visions of mine. And when I would tell my priesthood leaders or my Young Men's leaders at the time, I was a teenager, My goal, some of them will say, well, TJ, once you begin paying a mortgage and once you have responsibilities, it's not always going to work out that way. So get your expectation right and so forth. And I would always say— and then they would say, hey, TJ, life isn't always fair, so get used to it. And I kind of always pushed that away. I was always like, no, I don't like it when people use that phrase, right? Why would we— if if what we think comes more into our world, right? Law of reciprocity.

Why would I say that?

And it wasn't until my dad surprised the family with leaving that for the first time in my life, even though I had had some failures starting my business early on in the early days, that was the first time I realized life is not always fair. It was really painful. Now, it's been several years now. It's been like 15 or 18 years now. And I tell you what, I've been a lot stronger because of it. So when my dad left was the first time in my life I realized that life really isn't fair. And, you know, I've grown a lot since that time. And that's been several years now. But I think I now have a little bit more empathy and understanding for people that are facing a myriad of trials and difficulties in their lives. And so in hindsight, in some ways I'm grateful for the experience. And that's a little bit of my, my backstory, if you will.

Well, so tell us a little bit about your, your journey in the Church. I mean, you served a mission in Taiwan. Uh, and now you're, you're a motivational speaker and you're an author and you achieved all of the success. Uh, where does the church fit into that whole picture?

Um, let's see, I don't know what's the most simple way to say that. I'm an active member of the church. I serve faithfully, strive to. Um, I've had several callings. I tend to work a lot with the youth, and so grateful for that time that I hopefully get to inspire the youth. I don't know if you want me to get into callings or whatever, but—

No, well, I'm just trying to put it all into perspective because a lot, you know, Ian and I, we discuss very often our history and our mission. And, you know, Ian has since left the church. I am still very much in the church. I'm in the Tabernacle Choir, which has really been one of the great joys of my life. But one of the things that I've sort of found, as in our generation, we're seeing quite a lot of people— and I think you're a little bit younger looking at those pictures of you, I think you're about 5 years younger than I am.

I'm 50 this year.

Yep. Yeah, I'm 55. See that?

Okay, perfect.

Got it.

Yep. Yep.

Mentally, I got— had it all together. But one of the things that I'm finding is the church to some degree is not the kind of community it was when I was growing up. I don't know if you've had that experience, but, you know, when I was growing up and Ian, of course, is a convert, was a convert at the age of 16. But when I was growing up, the church was the whole world. The church was, you know, our entire social network. It was just every major event in life. You know, there was a big church Christmas party. There was a big church, whatever it was. The church was just sort of the center of the universe. And a lot of that has changed over time. You know, I was a really lousy Boy Scout, so I was not upset to see the Boy Scouts go by the wayside, but I was kind of upset to see the Boy Scouts go by the wayside and then have it replaced with essentially nothing. Right. There really isn't sort of a new program that replaces it. And that same kind of sense of community is sort of lost. And I think a lot of people in our generation, they start to question that and say, well, if the community isn't as strong as it was, is the church really— where does the church fit? And how much of this do I actually believe? And that leads to a lot of faith crisis in terms of people reevaluating their beliefs, reevaluating their commitment. And, you know, so I, I, I, I don't have necessarily a specific question other than to say, has that been similar to your experience? Are you encountering people that are experiencing faith crisis or just sort of walking away that the church doesn't feed them anymore the way it used to? And I'm wondering how you deal with that, how you encounter that being sort of a public figure and dealing with people who are wrestling with all kinds of different things in their life, how does that kind of wrestle apply to the church?

Hmm. Well, first of all, I do have friends that have left the church. And so I'm aware of that. I'm often saddened. I Based on what you said, yeah, I can remember when I was young, the church was sort of a community. My focus was around the church, was in the church, the social functions, Boy Scouts at the time. And I thought it was good. But early on in my business career, right, I had to branch out of that in terms of business. And just like I'm sure you guys have, just having to provide and so forth, you learn to accept everybody from different faiths, and there's not judgment, right? You just It is what it is. There's different series of beliefs out there, and you learn to live with it and try not to be too judgmental. So I—

but that hasn't been an issue for you personally. You don't— you haven't sort of experienced—

Well, I— the only thing I would say is close to that, no, I've not experienced it. But close to it is when my dad left, was almost— not exactly, but almost the same time the book Rough Stone Rolling came out. I don't know why I dove into that book at that time, but it got me to question all kinds of things. Yeah. And, and, and I should probably give you some background. I don't know if genetics plays a role or anything, but my, uh, pioneer heritage is I'm a Smith. And Joseph Smith is my cousin, 8 generations back. John Lyman Smith is my grandpa, great-grandpa. And so there's a— in our family, there's a strong sense of the Smith blood, if you will, and just in terms of all that happened in those early days of the church and so forth. But I think I went through a time where I questioned things, but as I educated myself and I prayed about things and I studied it out in my mind, and then remembered and continued to have spiritual experiences that sort of confirmed certain things, and, and I saw blessings come in my life that— and situations come in my life that couldn't be explained logically. I tell people today that the book Rough Stone Rolling actually strengthened my testimony. Because what I saw was Joseph Smith was a man who was very natural man who made a lot of mistakes. But I walk away from that being an author thinking to myself, and I know this is a logical thing, it's not a spiritual discussion at this point, but I've written several books. And to think that Joseph Smith with a third grade education could come up with so much doctrine, whether it's the Doctrine and Covenants, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and so forth. No matter who pokes holes in it, which is fine, go for it. But it still has stood the test of time. And I just struggle to wrap my head around the idea that it was all made up. So if any— if anyone really goes in and studies the revelations and the breakthrough ideas that were not prominent at the time, I think if their hearts are sincere, they will also feel the spirit of those truths as well. And I would say that many of those truths are shared with other religions as well. We're not alone in many of those truths.

So sure. No, Rust Stone Rolling. My family, my parents gave all of the kids copies of Rust Stone Rolling for Christmas.

Oh, you're kidding.

No, great. I love that book. I love Richard Bushman. We're trying to get Richard Bushman on this podcast.

Oh, he would be great. Oh yeah.

I've sent out feelers to see what we can do. So Richard Bushman, if you're listening, we would love to have you here. But my reaction to Ruston Rowland was very much like yours in that— in that— I mean, one of the things that, that strengthens my faith actually is the recognition of the fallibility and the weakness Amen.

That's what, that's what I believe. Right.

We're taught so much that these men are demigods that it can be jarring when you read something like Rough Stone Rolling that, that points out that there are very real flaws, that these are very human beings. But I think it's such a much better story that this is a church that has survived and thrived despite the weaknesses. Of its leaders, not because the leaders are somehow magically gifted in ways that the rest of us can understand. Ian, have you read Rough Stone Rolling?

Yes, a while back. It's a great, amazing book, and I would love to get Richard on, on to a podcast.

It opens your eyes to a lot of things for sure.

Yeah, I love the fact that he's very, you know, I think he led the Joseph Papers Project. He's a deeply respected individual. I think at all levels within the church. And he takes a very, like this podcast, you know, Inside Out, takes a very balanced look, I think, at the church. He doesn't kind of whitewash some of the difficult issues, right? And the church, I think it's a strength, these complexities, these challenges that they had in restoring the church. Of course they had challenges, of course they made mistakes, why wouldn't they, right? You know, some mistakes were, I think, avoidable. You know, I think with a little bit of insight could have been avoided. But, you know, they were restoring a new church. But I think Richard Buisson's got a pretty good balanced perspective on, you know, kind of both sides of God. And Joseph, you know, whether you believe him or not, and I'm reading this book by Alex Beam called American Crucifixion, who's a New York bestseller, you probably have heard of the name. And he's done a very fantastic book on Joseph Smith from a non-member's perspective, looking at all the facts. And even he says Joseph Smith was quite an inspirational figure to achieve all that he has. He talks about there's been a lot of evangelical leaders that emerged prior to Joseph and after Joseph, but Joseph was, quote, the most successful leader of his kind at the time, end quote. So, and I love your statement of faith, T.G., I think is extraordinary because You know, you got the book, you read, you had questions. We'll deal with youth and YSA individuals all the time. They've all got questions, issues, challenges, successes, failures, trying to find themselves. You know, we look back at the time when we were young, you know, when I was a teenager, joined the church at 16, and certainly YSA, there was a time of anxiousness on my part. A little bit of intense, you know, what's gonna become of me? What's gonna happen?

And you know, what am I gonna do for the rest of my life?

And there was, as I say, a period of anxiousness and like the mission actually sorted me out. It was a stabilizer, a very stabilizing experience. But nevertheless, there were lots of people my age who had questions about life and divinity of the church and challenges and questions. And you know, I wish I had more people that time to be able to speak into. I kind of kept a lot within, within myself. And many of our listeners, TJ, you know, because we have Inside Out, you know, I've— I don't go anymore, but I still have faith in the church and Jesus Christ. I still find the Book of Mormon incredibly inspirational, inspirational. We talked about that on the podcast. There are passages in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, which I find just extraordinary inspiration. And our listeners, which are quite broad, you know, some are in, some are out, some are kind of navigating the faith. You know, they have questions and they want to be able to ask the questions. They want to be able to go to church and be able to ask, you know, openly, freely, without being judged. You talked about not judging people, which is great. Feel a safe place where they can totally express their opinion, have an opinion, have a question, right? Yeah. So when, when amazing people like you come on and you talk about you know, your experiences, and we have different people at different levels of faith, etc. Our listeners get a lot from that because they feel they can be getting something from that conversation that can help them at that point in life. So yeah, I think your journey, your experience is extremely relevant to, you know, all of our listeners, so many of our listeners on the Inside Out podcast.

Well, I would just remind all the listeners, right, because you probably have some people that have questions, you have people that are active, you have people that were once active, or whatever, whatever the balance is, right? Is it seems with the friends that are not members of my church, or the people that I meet, is the question they often, I think, think out of maybe a sense of tradition or something, is that we don't believe in Jesus Christ. Listen, he's the only— he is the Redeemer and the Savior of the world. And in the church, we believe that to be true. And I'm glad to see that the church is making that more of the focus, not that the doctrine has changed. It's all— that's always been at the— I mean, Joseph Smith would put Jesus Christ first, right? So, but the world doesn't, because there's so many traditions and beliefs and stuff, they don't often see that. But anyone that reads the Book of Mormon, right, would see that the name Jesus Christ is— I don't— you guys could probably tell me more specifically, but it's over— it mentions Jesus Christ over 2,000 times in the book. And so I say believe, don't be faithless. Jesus Christ said believe. And if we live the way Jesus Christ taught people to live, I think the world would be a happier place to live. We live in a fallen world where I think having God in our lives, deity in our lives, could be a positive thing that could actually strengthen society rather than weaken it. But we've spent many years trying to push God out of every institution. And I think morals are based on a higher power. It's not our own morals, right? It's based on a higher power.

So I love, as I listen to you, TJ, I love that scripture, the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 25:26. And again, The Book of Mormon is replete with references to Jesus Christ and his life. And I find even now extraordinary strength and inspiration. Jim Bennett knows this, but I started reading the Book of Mormon again.

Wow. Yeah.

I love the scripture. It says in that, in that chapter and verse 25, 26, I think, like, we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for remission of their sins. I love that scripture. Um, TJ, you, you talk about— you touch upon something I find intriguing about, you know, this anchor of faith. The, the Book of Mormon talks about the anchor of faith. That's another one of my favorite scriptures. Moroni, I think. But I used to be able to remember the scriptures by this. I knew where all the scriptures were, almost. Exactly in the Book of Mormon when I was on my mission. I'm not trying to show off nothing, but I— but some of those times, those memories come back to me where I can remember those scriptures. And we talked about anchor faith. You talk about if we believe more in Christ and we anchor ourselves to Christ, that a lot of the problems of the world— and I agree with you, um, in many ways— a lot of problems we could probably deal with. What's your— with your experience and your personal, spiritual, church service experience, leadership, professional leadership, even with professionals. What's your— and again, in the context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and if you want to touch upon the timeline of, uh, of the Gospel in terms of where we are with the Gospel and Christ in the timeline, what's your perspective on what's happening in the world? Because the last episode, Jim Bennett and I talked about— we got into a bit of a an interesting political slash religious conversation about the significant events that are happening in the world today. Very serious things going on. Only today, uh, another event happened in Russia— sorry, in Ukraine— where Russia hit a hospital in Kyiv, and sadly a lot of children and individuals lost their lives. This is the day before the NATO event tomorrow. There's a big NATO meeting happening tomorrow. We have the new UK Prime Minister attending, Keir Starmer attending. It's a major event. Russia sent all this, fired all these missiles over to Kyiv last night. We're seeing significant upheaval in the Middle East. Jim Bennett talked about that on the last podcast, Israel, Palestine. We're seeing very interesting developments happening in American politics, which I'm sure you're probably tracking. And what's your take on, from your perspective as a member of the church, committed to the gospel as you are, what's your take on your perspective on the events that are happening around the world at this time, if you can speak to that?

Well, I think just very simply, power can corrupt. And when I— I'm with you, I like the macro understanding of where the world is going. So I pay attention to the news and so forth. And I just, I wish in a perfect place that we could stop all the wars. And, but I do think in this world there's good and there's evil. And I think a lot of the problems I see, I don't know them personally and decisions they make, but I do often wonder, are they inquiring of the Lord above. I mean, I, I think of the founding fathers of the United States of America, and I think all of them either were bankrupt or were killed or were estranged or whatever by the end of their lives. I mean, they literally gave up their lives for putting together the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and so forth. And so there's always going to be this war, and I don't— the war started before this world was even created, so I just think on an individual level, whether you're a member of the church or you're not a member of the church, it's our job to be respectful of people with differing views. I agree with what you said earlier, Ian, that we should be able to ask questions and we should be as transparent as possible. I remember several years ago I was asked to speak at Hanscom Air Force Base up in, um, the Boston area, Massachusetts. And my brother had served his mission in Boston, so I said, hey Steve, do you want to travel with me and go up there and you can show me your mission and stuff like that? And he says, absolutely. And he ended up taking me one day to one of the church buildings right across the river, across from Harvard, and he said, this is where I would go to church. And We were walking through it, and I remember it's an old chapel where you have, you know, there's a balcony that goes around and so forth. It was kind of old and so forth. It was kind of cool. We wandered down to the basement or just to the downstairs where all the offices were, and we ran into two older gentlemen, seemed like they were probably in their 60s or 70s. And we asked who they were, and they said they were professors at Harvard. That triggered a thought. They said they also teach institute. So that triggered a series of thoughts with me at that moment. I said, hey, I'm curious, what do you see with the students that are coming in today related to the gospel? And maybe if you've been teaching for over 30 years, what was it like 30 years ago? And I remember one of those gentlemen, one of those professors said, you know, he says it used to be a lot of the information the church history, whatever else, was wrapped in a bubblegum wrapper and handed to you. He says now with the students that are coming into Harvard today, they have all the information at their fingertips because of the internet. So, so my thought is whether it's the church or any organizations, because I do leadership consulting and strategizing and so forth, organizations that thrive, whether it be in a for-profit world, a nonprofit world, a religious world, are those that are transparent. And be as transparent and as honest as possible and, and make changes where changes need to be made, for sure. And, um, the friends that have left the church, it's because they've learned this, or they've learned this, or they've learned this that they didn't know about several years ago. In many of those cases, I knew that stuff in seminary when I was a senior in high school, so it didn't shake me. So I'm just a big believer that if we're more transparent, starting with our youth at a younger age, teaching them the core of the doctrine, the real history and so forth, they'll be better off in the future because of it. They'll be strengthened because of it. I think parents need to be more transparent. Parents need to be more open. And I think a faithful seeking person will be forgiven, especially if we're leading people to pray. If we're leading people to, to talk to God directly. Joseph Smith is the one that really pointed our focus to you. You don't need to go to your pastor, you don't need to go to your preacher. He would say in Doctrine and Covenants, you can, you can speak directly with God. And so I think if someone is honestly seeking that refuge and seeking that peace, I do believe they can find it. And I think the world would benefit just turning their hearts to a higher power, not making themselves the higher power. If you know what— in fact, I have right here. I'll just show you because I think it— you do have it. No, I don't have it. Oh, yes, I do. Okay. Your audience is not going to see this, but I'm showing up a magazine. It's a Time magazine called The Me, Me, Me Generation. I think it was from 2013. Well, 30 years earlier, Time magazine had a cover that was called The Me Generation.

Right.

And so this was the 30-year— and I have it right here that you guys can see, right? You can vouch for me, the actual magazine for it. Yeah, yeah. The mag. And here's what they say in it. And I thought I've shared this before to some of my audiences. Just that with social media and everything else, it says in this— and this is 2013— it says in there that the average user of a phone today has 87 pictures of themselves, selfies, on their phone. And they make the point in the article that if it was 30 years earlier, before we had smartphones and everything else, it would be like having 87 posters of yourself in your bedroom, right? We used to have Michael Jackson posters and MacGyver posters and whatever back in the old days, right? But, but I think that's a valid point. We've turned so far in that we become self-imposed species where we're isolating ourselves from the community, from the people, even if they're with different faiths. We can all get along if we will just If we will love God and a higher power and goodness better than getting even. Anyway, I said a lot there. I'm sorry, guys.

No, we would like you to say as much as— this is why you're here. We want you to say more. This may be a loaded question though, because you're talking about, okay, transparency, it's essential that we have transparency. And my question is, do you feel that the church currently is sufficiently transparent, particularly about difficult issues in history and doctrine?

I feel like I'm not a good judge of that because I wasn't probably as aware of— I am now. If I go back 20 years, right, I'm in a different place today. I think they're making huge strides. When you think of the Joseph Smith Papers, Right. No, some people could listen to me say that and say, yeah, but TJ, you know, that some, some things are left out of even those and so forth. And I hear that. Any— I would just say to those people that are thinking that it maybe is subjective in terms of the content, let me tell you, every autobiography of any well-known person that you'll ever read is subjective. There is data that is left out that you're not going to see. So do I think the church is making progress? I do think that. So I was reading Rough Stone Rolling, and you probably have some listeners, this won't be news to them, but just that Joseph Smith had sealed to him many wives. I remember some people were in my home and they said, did you hear about Joseph? They had just learned about it. Joseph had these wives and so forth. And the thought that went through my head, Jim, was that it was like, has the church ever shared anything about Joseph Smith having more than one wife? Because I, I knew that when I was a young adult, right? So it wasn't news to me. But these folks that were bringing it up, that was the first time they were hearing it. So in my home, I opened up my computer, I went to, at the time, lds.org, or, you know, the church website. And I typed in something like Joseph Smith wives, and it told in at that time it was listed on the website. So do I think the church is trying to be? I do think so. But you got to be willing to search for it. It's not all going to be handed to you.

So, well, I mean, that, that's been my experience too. And I grew up in an unusual circumstance in that I grew up in a family where all of these things were discussed openly. In ways that I don't think they were discussed openly in other— with other sorts of families.

Totally.

And I always tell the story of my own sort of faith crisis when I read The Godmakers when I was a freshman at the University of Southern California. And I took all of the quests. And one of the reasons why that didn't drive me out of the church was that I had a father and I also had an uncle that I was living with at the time who was the L.A. stake president. His name was Howard Anderson. And I brought these to them and they were aware of the problems. They were willing to discuss them with me and they didn't freak out that I was asking the question. But what I am discovering, as in my own weird little ministry, if you will, is that people, it's not just that they feel like the church hasn't been transparent or that they have— they don't Their shelf doesn't break, to use the metaphor, the clichéd metaphor of the shelf breaking. Their shelf doesn't break because necessarily they encounter some doctrine or history they don't like. Their shelf breaks because the faith crisis becomes a trust crisis. They feel like the church hasn't been transparent, the church has been dishonest with them, so they no longer trust the institutional church. Even if the institutional church reaches out and tries to provide some of these answers, the damage is sort of already done. And they say, no, no, I'm not going to pay any attention to that. I think you are 100% right that the church has made great, great strides. I mean, I think the Gospel Topics Essays were a good first step. But I know, Ian, you had an experience with the Gospel Topics Essays that actually sort of drove you out. That was a negative experience for you.

Yes, yes. If you remember, TJ, in 2013, I was still, I'm not sure when you came up from Seattle. No, no, no, yeah, yeah, maybe just before that. But the essays came out, which you're familiar with. And the first one, I think, I think there was a precursor talk to that essay, I think at least, from Elder Uchtdorf who spoke at the 2013 General Conference, gave an extraordinary talk, actually a classic in my view. I was very active at the time and on the Stake Presidency and heard the talk, and he talked about past leaders had made mistakes, that past leaders could and should have known better. I'm kind of trying to paraphrase or quote him as close as I can. I'm not doing a very good job, but If you go on to his talk in October 2013, he did talk about these challenges that some of these leaders were experiencing. And I thought, listening to that, he was referring to a rogue stake president or rogue bishops, you know, people in the rank and file of the church who, yeah, they make mistakes. I didn't for one second think he was talking about major issues or concerns or decisions that, you know, past prophets or apostles had made. Um, and perhaps I was naive to think that they Perhaps they didn't make as many of the, well, many serious mistakes as they did. I think they made some serious mistakes, frankly, and they made lots of good choices, of course. But the month after, I think it was in November, the first essay came out. I think it was November 2000, and it was on the race of the priesthood. And being on a mission and teaching this as a bishop and teaching in the temple, outside of the temple, I've been a bail worker, as you know, served as a bishop, as branch president, served a mission. You know, we taught that, you know, in the past we taught that Blacks would not— or at least this is what I was taught and what I taught as well— that Blacks were not equal before the world was, that they were not as valiant as white folks, and that they came to earth with a curse of the black skin, which the Book of Mormon talks about. And those are passages of the Book of Mormon that I used to struggle with, and I kind of avoided and put them on that shelf that Jim referred to. But then when the Grayson priesthood essay came out, and the church went into that and acknowledged that there were mistakes made, that that doctrine— what I got from that essay was that doctrine was false. That's what I— so, so that essay, just to be clear, My interpretation of that essay was that doctrine was inaccurate, unreliable, and false. In fact, at the end it said the church disavows any past teachings or practices that teach, you know, inequality, and reaffirms its commitment to equality. Again, I'm paraphrasing it. There's an important paragraph at the end, but basically what I was getting from that, it was throwing past leaders like Brigham Young and others who was very opposed to Black folks having equality. And we won't get into that right now in the podcast. And that was the position I was taught on when I taught, when I was taught in seminary institute, you know, growing up the age of 16 in the church. And then here's this essay saying all that actually was wrong. That was a mistake.

That was false.

That is a false doctrine. And for me personally, that was the beginning of a, a thread that started to unfold and you took a different journey, which is great. And I respect that. My journey took me in a different direction. Now I read Rostrom, Rowling, and other books, et cetera. And it took me into other areas why I had questions. And by the way, when the essay came out, I actually, my response was excitement and positiveness, right? I thought this is great because I never believed that Black folks and white folks are not equal. I just never felt that in my heart. I never ever thought ever that I was, I was better than anyone else, even in my skin color. It didn't matter. You could be brown, you could be Black, you could be white, it doesn't matter, right? Um, I always felt that we're all equal under God, and the Book of Mormon teaches that. The Book of Mormon has those, uh, those curse, uh, I think racist comments in it, frankly. But it also counters that with other scripture that all are alike under God and all are equal. I think, again, I'm paraphrasing that. I always felt the latter. And so there it was, presiding authority in the ward that you attended. I wasn't the stake president, but I was on the stake presidency. And I, you know, I'm there presiding, the bishop said, I'm the guy in charge in this priesthood meeting. And I said, brethren, look at this. This is wonderful. We've got the church acknowledging in an essay that those past teachings, you know, in regards to race in the priesthood were inaccurate, were false. I didn't say false, but inaccurate. And the church is addressing it. And this is good. This is really good. Have a guess what the reaction was from the leaders in the ward and the stake? Not good. Not good.

That's what I mean.

So yeah, really not good. I was taken to the side. I've talked about this on the early podcast, taken to the side and reprimanded by the leaders, people above me, to not discuss the essays. They'd just come out. Jim, as you know, there was a time that the essays were hard to find. There weren't— This is hard to find. No, absolutely.

Looking for them, you, I mean, they don't come up in any sort of—

They don't. TJ Bennett completely— Oh, I agree. Open and honest. At that time and Jim's talking about right now, they weren't easy to find. That's all I'm saying, right? So here I was, I printed it off, holding it up, and I read it because no one could stop me. I'm big, I was in charge, right? And I said, this is great. We're finally addressing something that is a concern. I, um, uh, uh, you know that, uh, that movie, uh, Tom Cruise where he writes that, um, uh, Jerry Maguire.

Oh, Jerry McGovern.

He writes that memorandum, that breakthrough, and he writes it, he's so excited and he shares it. He didn't realize it's a big mistake, right? It all backfires on him, right? And that was my experience. So this gratitude, excitement that I felt, this important acknowledgement, if you like, of the church in this really important document, the response was, it ranged from, Is it official? Did the church write it? Did the leadership write it? Did they sanction it? Did they approve of it? Right through to the church has been hacked. And anti-Mormons have uploaded the essay onto the church. And I am, I am now as state president say, I've allowed myself to follow the dictates of the adversary, the evil spirit. And I brought that into priesthood. And there I am teaching false doctrine, you know, under the authority of a state presidency leader. And I was just blown away. I was told not to talk about it, not to share it, not to ask questions. It was awful. It was devastating. And it was the beginning of my journey out because I couldn't, you know, it turned out to be a legitimate document, obviously.

But for sure. But here's my thought about that because I've had friends talk to me about it too. And here's my thing, maybe I'm just naive, but anyone who has a solid, um, understanding of history knows that Joseph Smith had, as part of the Seventy and other quorums and so forth, Black people.

He did. He did.

So, so when, when— so in my mind, when all that's transpired, the— this is the mystery, right? Why does the Lord— if the church is led by the Lord, right— why, why does at times he allow people to lead that are imperfect? Why does he allow doctrine to go uncorrected over time? I don't know the answer to that, but I knew it wasn't a big surprise to me because I knew there was a time when they— so So I don't know why Brigham Young, if it was Brigham Young, I don't fully know the whole thing. But why, why would the Lord allow that to be a confusion point?

Right?

It's just, that's a natural man's thought process.

And then you reconcile that with understandable, the, you know, the church teaching from the prophets that the Lord, I think Wilford Woodruff, or I think it was Jim Bennett, correct me, and the Lord won't allow the leadership to lead the church astray.

Right?

And so, but so I agree, going back to the earlier point you made, which I think is a really important point to highlight for us and for our listeners is, and Jim talks about this a lot, has great insight into it, the infallibility of church leaders, that church leaders living or dead, you know, past or present, are not perfect. They make mistakes. But hey, let's acknowledge that, which the church is beginning to do, I think, more openly. You know, we made mistakes. Our history is not black and white. It's gray. There's lots of color. You know, there's lots of complexity. There's lots of challenge. But let's be open about it. Let's be transparent about it. Let's not shut down people because they've got questions or have a different view or a different perspective. Let's talk about it. Let's just openly have a good conversation and let's help people feel safe. Like I didn't. I didn't feel safe. And, but let's help people feel safe and secure, be able to talk about things that they've got questions about. So I really appreciate your, you know, your perspective and your, your thoughts on that.

So I just think after this life, some things will be reconciled, and we'll see some things a little bit more clearly. And we're asked in this life whether it be the Bible or the Book of Mormon, to live on faith, right? You have faith and love the Lord, right? You know, President Nelson is pointing people to Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ. We just have to remember that there are things as a growing church from obscurity, from unlearned men, there's going to be mistakes. And I would remind the listeners that I have a brother who's a bishop right now. These leaders in the church are not getting paid. These are, these are people in the church that have full-time jobs, have families to take care of, and they don't have every answer for everything. So let's, let's at least give our local leaders a little bit of breathing room, because it's, it's, it's, it's not a career move for them to be a leader in the church, if you know what I mean.

Well, so have you been a bishop?

I've not been a bishop. I've been in a bishopric, not been a bishop.

Same here. I've been in two bishoprics, and what's wonderful about the choir— this is a dirty little secret— is that it gets you out of all other church callings.

Oh, does it really?

Yeah, it is your church calling. I am called as a musical missionary And so my ward is not allowed to call me to anything else.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Okay.

So, so, uh, that's not like you're not busy though. I mean, you're putting in time.

It's, I mean, I, I, so I have been in two bishoprics and I was much busier when I was in a bishopric than I am in the choir. The choir, the time commitment, you have a Thursday night rehearsal, you have a Sunday morning broadcast. There are extra rehearsals around conference time and around when you go on tour. But for the most part, it's, you know, your commitment is well outlined and it's fairly manageable. And when you're in a bishopric, you have all of Sunday is eaten up with all of the meetings that you have, the ward council, the PEC, the whatever else. I think they've streamlined those more. They have since I was in a bishopric. But you have a meeting in the middle of the week and then things come up and you end up going to Young Men's and Young Women's. You end up doing, you know, it was a much, much bigger time commitment. And you also go out. When I was a bishopric, you would go out visiting with the bishop. He would pick a night and you'd say, we're going to go out and visit X. Then it was a very rewarding experience. But extraordinarily time-consuming. And you're right, this is not a— they're not getting paid for it. And so we— I think you raise a really good point in that we ought to have as much grace, give as much grace to our church leaders as we expect them to give to us, if not more so. So, but Ian, you have been Anyway, you talk about when you were in a state presidency, your state covered such a large swath that you had to drive hours on end.

Oh yeah, out there for sure.

We're in, uh, yeah, our state is the Vernon British Columbia state, and the, the, uh, boundary— and I'm not exaggerating— it, it's a little— so it, I think it's longer than the whole of Scotland as a country. So I think you could try. We used to go to Bishop meeting for 8 o'clock in the morning. We used to have to get up at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, get there for 8. And that's to the— that we're in the middle of the stake. And then about— we had to travel maybe 2 and a half hours south to her. So I think from bottom to top, it's probably about a 7-hour drive. That's 7 and a half hours, I think. Yeah. So that was— you can, you can do Scotland from the border of Scotland up to John O'Groats there at the top there, what, 6 hours, 5 and a half, 6 hours, 5 and a half hours, I think. Yeah. So it's— our stake is bigger than the country.

It's a sacrifice.

It is a sacrifice. It is.

It is for sure.

But I got a great deal of reward, TJ, from serving and building those amazing relationships and living in. So I say when I came across the essays and I saw them as breakthroughs, not just that essay, but all the other essays, is what, how many is it, Jim Bennett, 12, 13, 14 essays roughly?

Oh, well, there are a bunch of essays, but only about 12 of them or so are covering really controversial type.

And I, I found them very positive, not negative, positive, not anti-Mormon, just an acknowledgment that, look, we're trying to correct something, trying to improve it. Um, TJ, what, uh, if I may ask you, what's your You know, building on the conversation that we've had so far with your experience, your background, we've said earlier that we've got listeners who are firmly in the church like you, totally in the church, serving, fully active. The people who have left, who are maybe trying to come back in, or people on the, um, inside of the edge, as Jim Bennett has said before, and trying to navigate the faith with all kinds of questions and dealing with all kinds of issues. What's your advice to people who are struggling with their faith, who've got questions, who, yeah, who are trying to find themselves or trying to rediscover their faith in Testament?

Well, I think you got to get into the scriptures. God talks to you, talks to us through the scriptures, the Holy Word of God. So what sources are people going to? Make sure that if you're going to go to all these podcasts and these writings and these essays and so forth, you know, make sure that you're also taking time to read the actual word of God. Um, there's a spirit that comes from that. And I think, um, just, I would say, approach it from a balanced approach. And I think the spirit is the teacher, right? That when you have those impressions that will lead you down a path. Hopefully it's, it's a good and bears good fruit path, um, that you'll get the answers that you're seeking. Here's one thing I know about human behavior though, because that's what my world is focused on, is how the mind works and how do we achieve success, is you'll find whatever you're looking for. We do 3 things in our minds constantly. We delete information, we distort information, and we generalize information. If we didn't have the ability to delete information, we'd go stark raving mad because our mind naturally has a survival mechanism that allows us to delete some information. If you just notice all the sounds around you right now, if we just were really quiet for a second, you would notice— if you're driving in a car or what you You would notice the sounds, right, that you weren't noticing while I was talking. But the other thing we do is we take data and we distort it based on what we value or what we're seeking and what we're looking for. And then the third one, we generalize. We say, well, if this happened here, then it probably bleeds into other things. And that's a good thing in terms of survival mode, right? Because you can open any door you go to because you've You've used a handle on 1,000 other doors, so you generalize that knowledge to the next door you go to, and you can open the door. It's pretty basic. But sometimes we take negative and bad experiences and we allow that to bleed into other areas of our lives. So I'm just a big believer, when good things are happening to you from a mindset perspective, blow the good out of proportion. Make it bigger, make it colorful, make it enlarged in the way you look at it and the blessings that will come from it and the opportunities that will show up for you. When negative things happen in the world, shrink it, try to delete it, because you don't want more negative things to come in your world. So it's a constant flow between enlarging and shrinking. And whatever we value, we're looking for, uh, we'll likely find the evidence to make it true, whether it's true or not. So we really, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's a scary, we have agency and it's scary that our minds have that ability. But, um, anyway, Ian, I would just say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, man. Come on.

No, no, I, I, I, I want you to know, as you and I are friends and, and I don't want you to be disappointed in me because I've left and we, you and I not talk.

Oh, we're brothers first.

It's fine. We're brothers. And I'm grateful for you. I know you won't misjudge me, and I still am me. I've not changed. I still have faith in Christ and God and still hold a lot of the scriptures. And you talk about the scriptures passionately, and I still hold a lot of those verses. I still hold them inspirational. I really do. And so I'm on my own journey. And you mentioned earlier, we're all different walks of life, and some people are in and some people are out. The podcast is Inside Out. Jim is on the insides and I'm on the outside. We try to get that balance right. Oftentimes Jim appropriately talks about some of the weaknesses of the church and he's kind of touched upon that today. And at those times, sometimes I say, well, hang on, Jim, what about the other side to that? You know, if I'm on the outside, kind of say, well, hang on, the church is trying to do this or it's doing this for this reason and give it a bit of a chance. He's probably thinking like this or do this. And then we kind of yin-yang kind of.

My wife has often said, listening to the podcast, it sounds more like Ian's in and you're out. And I thought, it's like, you really, you really— Ian's the one who sounds faithful and you're the one that sounds like you're the rebel.

It's funny, I've not lost my faith. My faith is still there. In fact, I would say, TJ, and this might sound odd, you may not have heard this before, but I'm more spiritual than religious now, right? So those universal principles of love, forgiveness, change, improvement, kindness, you know, less judgmental, et cetera. I'm, I feel I'm not perfect obviously, but I feel stronger in those areas than I did when I was not in the church. And so, I still serve in the community and I, you know, I get a little spirituality through that and also through nature. And I'm connected still deeply with, you know, people, member friends who were in the church, people who've been extraordinary leaders who have left, and people who have left and they've come back into the church. So my spectrum of relationships is kind of interesting. And so, but the thing that connects us is that we, you know, we want to do right, want to do good, we want to be kind, we want to, we all know and believe that to achieve happiness, you have to serve others. I've always felt that. In order to find ourselves and to find our authentic selves and to find happiness or some semblance of peace and harmony in life, we can only do that, in my opinion, by helping other people. And there's great joy that comes from help genuinely, not for reward or recognition or, or because of a calling. You know, you don't have to serve because you've got a calling or you're a home teacher or ministry teacher, et cetera. Just serve because it's good, it's right, it feels good. And my goodness, you get so much joy by helping someone else. Therein lies that universal principle that Christ taught, who taught in the streets, he taught in the homes, he taught in the hills, and he blessed people at a very, very personal level. And he did that in a way that was extraordinarily humble. And you said very beginning of this, uh, conversation, and it struck me, is the reason why we've got major problems in this world is because there are people who are selfish, self-serving, power greedy, uh, and, and, and actually quite corrupt and somewhat evil individuals who put themselves first and don't care about others. That is completely in contrast, total contrast to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is in complete opposite to some of the so-called leaders in the world today. And if they could just take an example of Christ, even at the basic level, and have a level of humility, just an ounce of humility and the reflection and to be a little bit teachable, which just seems beyond them, frankly. But if they could possess some of those qualities that Christ had, I agree with you. I think we'd be living in a very different world right now.

I think the greatest self-help book is probably the Bible, and personally, the Book of Mormon. And anyone that has ever read, truly sought and read the Book of Mormon, I think can feel the Spirit from that. I could tell many. So here's one thing I would say to people, and what you said is beautiful. Think of the times when you did feel the Spirit, when you knew that intelligence was flowing through you, And sometimes we get busy in life that we forget about those moments in our life where we have been touched by deity. And I think if we will draw near unto him, he will draw near unto us. But many people aren't seeking. And you're right, some people feel more spirituality in the wilderness, for sure. Everybody's mode of hearing the Spirit or the modality they use to feel close to God is not equal for everybody, and everybody feels it and hears it differently. So I think we have to be patient with people. I think we need to love people. I think we need to assume the good out of people rather than assume the bad. Look for the good rather than the negative. The world is full of negative, but we don't want to live there, right? We want to live, and it doesn't mean everybody needs to be a member of the church to be happy either. Just live good, and you'll be blessed for it. I believe the law of reciprocity will come back.

So, well, so this sounds a little bit— can you just— I know we're coming up near the end here. But can you give me a sense of how your faith and your membership in the church informs your professional life? Because you've talked about leadership and you've talked about the kind of counsel you give in secular settings. But do you see an overlap there?

Total overlap.

Yeah.

I don't bring up in my speeches Jesus Christ or the church or anything like that. But if you look at the every— so the subtitle of my first book, If You Think You Can, the subtitle is 13 Laws That Govern the Performance of High Achievers. Those laws, just so everybody knows, I don't know if I've ever shared this before, I took every one of those 13 laws and I balanced it against scripture to say, hey, Can I make an argument that technically, I could come out with an If You Think You Can version that would be in harmony with the Bible, that would be in harmony with the Book of Mormon? And you bet. I have a list of scriptures for every principle I taught in there. Does it mean you have to use the same language? No. And so I, I think you teach true principles, and you teach people correct principles, and you let them, as Joseph Smith said, govern Govern themselves. And I think great leaders and companies teach the vision, teach what's expected, develop their people sufficiently, and let those people govern themselves. Let them use their own minds. Let them use their own ingenuity. And then create an atmosphere where transparency is king, where ideas can be shared without shutting them down. And I'll tell you what, I have stories after stories that I share in my speeches and so forth. Where frontline workers actually created the breakthrough that company needed to make millions of dollars or whatever, whatever the situation was. If we will listen to the people, and I think listening is a critical aspect to growth and fulfillment. Think about your relationships. Think about your children. Of course, they want us to listen more, right? And just being more of a listener. And hearing things, trying to come from their perspective instead of shutting them down, I think, which we've kind of just talked about in this podcast. But I do tie it all in, um, generally because I stay pretty true to fundamental principles, right? I'm just really safe in those principles.

Well, TJ, uh, Jim Bennett, thank you both. So much for creating, generating an extraordinary conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I've learned a great deal. Before we close here, TJ, and same to you as well, Jim Bennett, you have any parting comments or advice that you'd like to share with the listeners? That's a question for you both based on the conversation that we've had with you, TJ Bennett.

Well, I will defer to TJ Bennett and just say how grateful I am to come on here and grateful I am to visit with you. I really think you're quite inspiring, and it's a lot of fun to be able to get, get a feel for what it is you do and for who it is you are. And I'm very grateful for what, what seems to be a, which is undoubtedly a very positive impact on, on the world and on the people you serve.

Thank you.

I hope, I hope that's true. I think it is, but I hope it's true. And I'll say thank you too for having me on your podcast, and I can tell your spirits are wonderful. And so, um, I guess in closing, I would just remind everybody that each person has greatness within, um, and one of the— I think one of the, um, purposes of life— and you guys will appreciate this— is to become the measure of your creation. And so, um, who do you— to the listener, what is it that you want to achieve? Is it in balance with the values that you have, that you espouse to have? Is it good? Does it make you a better person? Does it leave the people you're working with feeling better about themselves? And then go after those goals with everything that you've got.

You have—

everybody has greatness within, and most people don't realize what they have until they're willing to risk stepping out of the comfort zone. And then they realize, wow, all of a sudden the magic carpet will appear. They'll realize they do have some skills, or they may notice an area that they need to improve. And then by improving that area, it opens a series of doors. And so I think for the listener, hey, believe in yourself, believe in a cause that's bigger than yourself, and believe in God. When I— I'm a history buff. You look at every generation, that, um, those that have loved God and those who have kind of pushed God out, and, and the destruction of societies and families and so forth tend to be those that have push God out of the public square. Let's get back to some of those core principles. And I think not only will we feel happy, but we'll create happiness in our homes. A better spirit will be in our homes and in our interactions with other people that are a part of the faith or not of the faith, not of the faith. And I think we'll all be blessed as a result of it. So go out there and unleash your greatness. With them.

Well, that's it for the podcast, everyone. We're grateful to all the listeners. Please join Jim and I next time on Inside Out, where we look forward to more lively, robust, and robust discussion about the Mormon Church and faith and often life in general. So on behalf of Inside Out and all the listeners, thank you, Jim Bennett. Jim Bennett. Thank you, TJ.

You bet.

Thank you.