A Conversation with Valerie Hamaker

Welcome to Inside Out, the podcast offering a pragmatic perspective on the Mormon Church and faith. We explore both the strengths and weaknesses of the church. We acknowledge, acknowledge its positive contributions while also addressing challenges in areas for potential growth. I'm your co-host, Ian Wilkes, and as always, I'm joined here by the Right Honourable Mr. Jim Bennett. Jim, how are you today?

I'm both right and honourable, probably more right than honourable. I'm not sure which, where the balance is.

I thought I'd give you that title because I've been watching a lot of British politics and there's a lot of Right Honourable titles that these people have. So today we have a wonderful and very special guest. Welcome, Valerie Hammaker.

Hi, how are you today? Good to be here.

Really good, Valerie. Wonderful to have you with us. Did I pronounce your last name correctly?

Hammaker. You, you, I wish you hadn't, but you did. Yes, it's evolved away from a little bit more of a dignified German sounding last name, but Hammaker it is in 2025.

Wonderful. And I'm not sure if I mess it up with my British accent. I've got a British accent going on here.

You made it sound better, so I like it.

Well, there we go. Well, Valérie, it's absolutely wonderful to have you here with us. And of course, to have Jim Bennett be with us today. We're looking forward to a very interesting and comfortable but also lively conversation with you. We've got you for a fairly limited piece of time. So if I can jump straight into it, could you give us a little bit of— and you've been asked these questions many, many times. This will be straightforward, I think. Could you share us a bit of background about yourself growing up in the church, your experience, a bit about your family, a bit about your work and your counseling, etc., your podcast, uh, your experiences of late, and where you are right now in the situation that you're in. And again, your podcast and your work that you've done is extraordinary work. And I did watch your podcast, I think it was on Mormon Stories, and it's wonderful what you've been doing to help people. But you got yourself into, uh, you and your, your husband got yourself into a interesting situation with the church, if I can say that. So if you could just kind of walk us through a bit of a timeline, that would be wonderful. And then Jim Bennett and I will jump in at some points and, and we'll have this conversation.

Okay, sounds good. So you just want a big sweeping overall timeline? I can, I can give that. And then, and then if you— I'm assuming you're gonna want us to go backwards and be a little more granular. I am from the Salt Lake City area. And specific to those who are from that part of the country. I'm from Centerville, Utah, uh, born in Holladay, raised in Centerville. My, my mother still actually has a home in Centerville, but she spends some time there with— I am one of 6 children, the second of 6 children, and most of my siblings still live in the Intermountain area for the most part, um, short of myself. I have lived in the Kansas City, Missouri area for 22 years, give or take. And before that, about 5 years in Houston, Texas. I have, I think I had a pretty traditional Mormon childhood. My family on both sides are Latter-day Saints, most of whom still are extended family-wise and such. I, yeah, I went to junior high and high school in Utah, went to, uh, Weber State University for my first year, then transferred down to, to BYU. And went 2 more years at BYU. Then I paused and served a mission for the church in the, uh, at the time it was called the Oakland, California Mission, Spanish speaking. It's expanded and contracted several times in the last 25 years. I don't know what it's called right now, but I loved it. It was, uh, like I said, Spanish speaking. I served in the visitor center for a portion of that time, did lots of proselyting as well. And as a bonus, I met my husband there. Uh, Nathan was my first, well, maybe not my first, but he was my zone leader at one point in time. And yeah, we crossed paths back and forth several times over the mission, came home. He came home first and we exchanged maybe one letter and I had my eye on him from the gate. He's a little more reticent to make that confession, but I'm not reticent at all. I thought he was good looking from the very first time I saw him. My heart was not evidently locked quite enough, but I really thought he was pretty good looking and I really wanted to, uh, I thought I was very hopeful that I could see him afterwards. So he was home quite a while before I was. Uh, as luck would have it, he was still single when I got home and we started dating, dated for 2 years, and both of us finished up at BYU and got married and went immediately to Houston where he went to the University of Texas., uh, Houston branch of medical school. And we were 4 years in Texas where he is from and had our first 2 children out there and then came up to Kansas City for him to participate in his residency program as an eye surgeon up here in Kansas City. We thought this would be just a temporary stop and had 2 more children while we were here. And towards the end of his residency, both of us independently had impressions that, that it would be good to stay here and raise our children here in the Kansas City area. And so we stayed here and did. We stayed here and raised our children, and we have one left at home, uh, three young adult children, two of whom are daughters and then two sons. The two daughters are— one just graduated from college at Utah Valley, and she is serving with the Peace Corps right now. Very proud. Yeah, very proud of her. She's wonderful. And, uh, second daughter— well, they're all wonderful. I better prob— I better say that from the gate lest I somehow communicate that she is more wonderful. My second daughter is graduating from the University of Missouri. Mizzou is what we call it here in the Midwest. And she is starting a graduate program at the UCSD, University of California, San Diego, in the fall. And then I have my firstborn son is serving in the Modesto, California mission, which he was very excited about. That's like, I don't know, 90 minutes, 2 hours out of San Francisco. So he was tickled that he gets to serve right by mom and dad. Where we were because we've been telling him and all of the children mission stories since they were very small. And then our youngest is a junior in high school, another son. And so that's the family. When he, uh, when I, let's see here, when we got up here to Kansas City, I, uh, Nathan was in medical or residency and I started a graduate program at the University of Missouri and I finished a master's degree in English. Thinking I might want to do some sort of a, a third world country literacy sort of situation, which deep into the program decided I didn't particularly like that, but I got good at writing papers and finished that up because I'd started it. And then a few years later, I, I realized what I really wanted to be when I grew up, and it was to be a, a marriage and family counselor. And so that happened and started that when my youngest was starting kindergarten and did that. And after I graduated from, uh, counseling school, I started a private practice in my home. We did a renovation and created a separate entrance and that kind of a situation so that I could work at home and have a lot of autonomy. I, um, trained a lot of, uh, graduate students, did a little bit of teaching at the university, and my practice, um, was successful quite early on. There were a lot of needs around here, especially, uh, I got plugged into the Latter-day Saint family services situation and was referred to by many, many a bishop and stake president. I had some special training in, uh, it's— we were calling it at the time sexual addiction. I know that's a name that's not as commonly used anymore, but I did a lot of public speaking in the ward, stake, and regional level all over the greater Kansas City and beyond area for the church, helping couples, um, better understand sexual health. And I think it might have been through that. I'm trying to really like trace the breadcrumbs backwards to where I evolved as, um, as someone who became a little bit more interested in the reform side of, of our faith. I think it was just so gradual, it's kind of hard to put my finger on it as as I learned, um, my trade and was doing more and more clinical work, I was personally growing. I think I was becoming a more complex thinker. I, um, was falling more deeply in love with the healing profession and enjoying it profoundly. And I, I guess I just started having the ability to look at suffering and trace back its origins in a way that was authentic and honest. And sometimes it had nothing to do with the faith, and sometimes it, it had to do with the faith. And I was willing to sort of start seeing, okay, this, this has been helpful, something that a Latter-day Saint has learned or integrated into their lives. And sometimes it wasn't so much. And so I, um, I just started being able to sort of see and discern what was working and what wasn't. And I think furthermore, as a— I was a clinical supervisor for several years, and I started, um, gaining a, a better skill set, um, being able to conceptualize issues, relationships, systems, problems, um, to sort of like be able to like take apart complex things I guess things is a weird word, relationships or ideas. And I just started really noticing things. And I remember one night I was talking to my husband and I'd done some collaborative podcasts with other podcasters. And Nathan said to me, you know, you and so-and-so, a colleague of mine, he says, you two ought to start a podcast, uh, actually talking about What you're noticing so that we, so that you can help people of our faith heal and help them feel like they're not crazy or that there's nothing wrong with them and just help them understand what's going on. Because sometimes people are suffering and they don't know why. And that's like the worst thing of all. And so talked to my colleague, uh, he thought it was a great idea. We started this together and a couple months in, uh, he, he was kind of ambivalent, I think, because we, I think we could tell from the gate this was, um, needed and necessary, and that this, this had legs. And he wasn't quite sure if this was where the, like, the actual direction he wanted to go. So he very graciously spoke with me, um, told me he didn't feel like this was where he wanted to go, but he wanted to really support me. I was terrified. I actually almost dropped the whole thing. I didn't really want to do it by myself. I was very aware of how daring and taboo and scary this was, and to do it by myself felt terrifying. And, and yet I'd had some experiences by that point in time that I felt like this was for me. It was for me. It was something I needed to do. And by the grace of God, I have a husband who is not a therapist, but he's very wise and he's articulate and he's very supportive and he loves to read books and we love to go on long walks and talk about things. And it just sort of weirdly evolved. And next thing I know, he was the guest on a podcast once. And I was like, that was fun. You did a beautiful job. Let's do that again. And so he sort of slowly integrated into the flow of the work. And then I, the podcast exploded almost immediately. It was just, there was clearly just such a need. And I think I still haven't quite figured it all out, but I have some ideas. I think there was something unique that I offered from the perspective of candor, uh, respect, uh, love. For the church, but also an ability and a willingness to talk about problems, talk about things that inadvertently harm or hurt people. And, but they could tell that I did it from a place of love. And so that resonated with a certain demographic of the faith. And from there, I had some training in running groups and facilitating groups. And I saw immediately the need was so great because of all the letters that were coming in and I just sort of like floated a test support and processing group and it immediately filled up. And from there, I think I've just kind of been, I don't know, half-assing, it's probably safe to say, just sort of putting the next thing together and the next thing. And that leads us, that, I don't know if this is as far as you want to go. Maybe we'll pause here because I feel like I did my assignment. I gave you my, the big overview and maybe we'll pause and let you say something.

You got, you got an A+ there.

Good.

Thank you.

I want A pluses.

It's an extraordinary journey and I want to, want to just connect back on the timeline that you've just spoke to. So please keep that in mind cuz there's a whole series of questions. It's extraordinary. Thank you for that. Before we get into it any further, could you describe, if you will, cuz I think this is an important baseline, yours and Nathan's commitment and devotion to, the gospel. Can you give some examples, um, where that was clearly, um, very much in place and, you know, through callings, etc.? Can you speak to that?

Sure, yeah. So as I mentioned, we, we— the foundation of our relationship, you know, ironically, is we were missionaries, and we, uh, from the very beginning were very committed to the church, um, I think both of us have a somewhat complicated background, which I don't want to go into particularly, but I think for us, as we started our family, there is something very, uh, safe, um, and stabilizing about sort of plugging yourself into something and realizing that, like, if they can just tell me what to do, I don't know how to do this, this is all new. And so we really, from the very beginning, uh, we, we were committed to what we felt would really, really help our family thrive. And Nathan and I are both— how to say this— we're very highly motivated and we're deep feelers and thinkers. And from when our oldest was 18 months old, we started having family home evening with her. And I— and to this day, we have one child at home and almost every evening we do a devotional. Our children have been raised with some very beautiful gospel rhythms. And I, it kind of made me smile. A month or two ago, we were talking to our second daughter, the 22-year-old in college, and she said, you know, Mom and Dad, I, I will sit down with my roommates and I will want to have deep philosophical conversations. And they look at me like I have three eyeballs because they, I guess they weren't raised doing that. And she said, we've always done that since we were little, where we would take a topic, uh, from the scriptures or whatever. And of course it was far more traditional when we were younger parents. And then it became a little bit more, uh, of an open field where we would do something that resonated with us, even if it wasn't sort of correlated, right? And now we're completely uncorrelated, but we still do it. And our, our daughters and our sons just, that was normal for them. And so the gospel, we call it scripture study, which, you know, scripture was broadly used from the very beginning. Uh, we've always done family prayer where every member of our family prays at night still to this day. Last night we did it with the three of us. Um, we've always attended temple recommend holding, uh, just very, not only committed from the, like the cultural side, but a sense, a felt sense that if we tethered ourself to something bonded us to God, that it would help our family. And, you know, things have evolved and changed clearly. And yet at the same time, Nathan and I have not changed in many ways in that we take more ownership of what this looks like. But it has absolutely been fundamental, uh, to, to our lives and to how, how we have parented. And, you know, we've had to do some repair work with some of the ways we taught or some of the things that we taught. Not good ideas now that we look back, and certainly our daughters have been the most gracious of the children who probably got the brunt of our rigidity and things. But fundamentally, as far as the rhythms of family, um, of how we chose to allow the gospel to, uh, sort of help us structure time together and how to talk about important things, I'm grateful for that to this day. I have no regrets whatsoever from that perspective.

Right. Ramé, that's, clearly you were absolutely devoted, committed. You followed the program and you enjoyed and continue to enjoy the blessings of, and Jim Bennett and I can relate to this because it's been, you know, been our experience. When you, we and I talked on the phone before we set up this conversation. Today, I mentioned that I'd been a former bishop and a former member of the stake presidency. And you'll have worked extensively with bishops, branch presidents, and members of the stake presidency. And on these podcasts, since we launched this a couple years ago now, I've made frequent reference to the difficulty I experienced as a bishop, where individuals would come to me, and Jim Bennett and I have talked about this, they'd come to me as a bishop, a very young bishop actually, and with no formal training coming to me with very serious issues relating to sexual health, as described as that. There were other sexual assault-related experiences, many of the sexual drug-related challenges and issues that these individuals have been carried. Some, some individuals had carried these issues and pain and suffering for an entire life. I, it was, it was incredibly emotionally draining. And as a bishop, I felt completely inadequate, overwhelmed. And when I went to the stake president as a bishop, and I've seen this on a stake presidency as well, very little or no training in terms of how to deal with this. And the default position, my default position was, which I think is quite common, is if individuals had a problem, then they could pray through it, they could fast through it, they could read the scriptures, they could turn to God. I was never the bishop, and unfortunately there are bishops out there that that have said this. And I want to say that in my experience, most of the leaders of the church have been extraordinary, wonderful, kind, loving, well-intent individuals. But there are certain individuals, bishops, perhaps with good intent, who connect someone's depression or anxiety with iniquity. In fact, it's in the scriptures. It's actually referenced in the scriptures, as you know. My question is, and want to get Jim Bennett's perspective on this as well, is When going back to your counseling training, you graduate as a professional counselor, you got involved with the church as a professional counselor. I do want to connect later with your podcast coming up, but when you were working with the church through— I presume there's some screening, accreditation, some equalization of your skills. What was that process in terms of the church pre-approving you? And can you speak to some of the experiences they had with the bishops and stake presidents when they someone came to them and they, they needed to refer them to yourself. Could you speak to a little bit about, uh, that, Valerie? That would be great. Thanks.

Yes. Yeah, I have, oh gosh, I have a lot I could say about that. So I guess I want to lead with, I have an enormous amount of compassion for what a bishop is asked to do because they are not trained. And so they are being asked to do something for which they cannot be expected to do well. And the, the most successful bishop is, in my opinion, is the one who knows that he doesn't know. And I've run into the most problems personally as I have witnessed some well-meaning ecclesiastical leaders who in an, in a, you know, an excess of zeal, shall we say, think that if they sort of lean deeply enough into their stewardship or their mantle or their priesthood power, that somehow or other they can, like, I don't know, like riff off of the universe a skill set that, that a human being can't have, and unless and until they have gone through the adequate training process. And so my, my initial thought process is the system is broken in that way because it, it requires and invites an interaction between somebody in a great deal of pain and somebody who is very, very well-meaning and incompetent, incapable of offering to these people what is actually needed. And both partners, both parties in this transaction want something from the other and are sort of hoping and expecting that something will happen that just isn't— not only is it not likely, but 99 times out of 100, it's not even possible because the well-meaning bishop doesn't have the skill set and the person has been sort of set up to believe that you are my leader, you are my spiritual director, or the father of the ward, or the guru, Or, you know, and, and so they come expecting something that is not going to be, uh, it's not going to be given. So, so that's, that's my point number one. And, and so to that, to speak deeper into that, experientially I have seen the entire spectrum, meaning that I have seen people who finally end up in my office. Sometimes they may have been referred by a bishop or some or an ecclesiastical leader, only after like so much damage was done that I needed to sort of clean up, like pick up the pieces, or they'd kind of given up, or they didn't know what to do. Sometimes they had just come on their own because they had tried and all of the, you know, um, seminary Sunday school answers had failed, right? And oftentimes that actually evoked in and of itself its own deeper crisis because not only were they suffering for what their primary issue was, such as perhaps a, a painful relationship or some unresolved trauma or some kind of abuse or something, but now you layer on top of that, um, someone feeling like as if they are a failure, or the shame associated. Well, if I were faithful enough, then my praying or scripture studying this away would have healed me. And so it's like there's an amplifying of issues. And so I've definitely seen that And then I've also been fortunate enough to see, uh, ecclesiastical leaders who know very well the moment they are outside of their lane and would refer quite quickly, right? They would recognize and exercise the, the, the, the humility and the ego structure to go, you know what? I do not know. I am not a marriage counselor. I do not know what to do here. I can tell there's a lot of pain here. I want well by you. Let's send you to someone whose skill set is prepared to meet your needs. And I'm proud to report that my very favorite bishop that I ever, ever worked with happened to be an elder that was also in my mission and ended up, weirdly enough, in the Midwest where Nathan and I were and frequently sent people from his stake. And the thing that I was so touched by is I will always hear the reports back from people about what was said, you know. Like it would, you know, I've heard good, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And this particular bishop would sit with the people and would tell them, I love you. You are loved. Nothing you can do will ever, ever, ever change that. And also, let's get you help. You're suffering clearly. And so from, from his core, he knew that his role was to love. Which is the way I see the role and responsibility of, of a bishop, which is just to help reflect God's love to the people in the congregation. And then if they have psychological needs, to send them elsewhere. And so, so I've seen, I've seen a little bit of all of that. I think I'll pause right now. And I know you asked several, like, parts of that question. How can, how can we move from here?

Well, I'm very curious, uh, because I know you, you've attracted an awful lot of attention for the controversy surrounding your decision to withdraw your membership from the church or to resign your membership in lieu of what they now call membership withdrawal, which is, I think, a softer, prettier term for excommunication because that's what we're talking about. I don't know that changing the term changes the impact of what happens. But I've listened to you discuss this. I listened particularly to your discussion on the Mormon Land podcast with the Salt Lake Tribune. And my heart just goes out to you because it's so obvious to anybody who listens to you, to anybody who's listened to you in this podcast. But in every discussion that you've had, it's so painfully obvious that you still love the church. That you are still a person of faith, and this must have been just an absolutely wrenching decision. So I would love to hear you discuss that as much as you are comfortable discussing it, because I think that's an extraordinarily personal decision, and whatever you want to say or not say about it would be appropriate. But I now— we're, I don't know how many— we're a couple of weeks removed from that decision now.

Yeah.

Um, uh, can you, can you tell us as much about that as you, as you'd like to share?

Sure. Yeah. I think it surprises a lot of people how calm and peaceful I feel about the unfolding of the events. Not because I've always felt calm and peaceful or because I'm in some sort of shock or numb about it. I don't think that's the case at all. As a matter of fact, I, I, I've been very calculated about the choices that have unfolded in the last 3 years. And it, this is interesting because in some ways it feels like so much has happened. And, and, um, if I may say, we have done a great deal of good already in just a small period of time, myself and my husband and the people who I'm so privileged to work with on the Latter-day Struggles. Podcast, all of my guest speakers and the theologians and authors and things like that. Um, but I was, I was not naive enough to begin this process without knowing that it was possible that we would be punished. That was a decision that I made absolutely intentionally from the very first drop of the podcast. I felt prepared to do this and had several very powerful personal experiences inviting me into this space. It was never a compulsion. It was never, you have to do this. It felt very clearly from a feminine divine and The words that came to my mind one time, I remember very specifically, were, "Right now, I don't have a voice, but you do. Will you use it?" And the sense I had was that I would be okay if I didn't, if this was too scary. It was okay. They would love me just the same, right? But also I felt that as I looked back at my life and looked at a variety of events that had unfolded, I had a unique skill set. I, I'm a decent public speaker. I, I'm pretty motivated. I understand healing. I understand organizations. I have a supportive partner who happens to very luckily be around the same space where I am in the faith journey. So I'm not alone in this. I also have a love of the tradition because it's in my DNA, but I'm also a critical enough thinker that I recognize that this isn't going to impact my relationship with God, even if like the worst thing happened. And I have differentiated myself enough from the institution of the church to recognize that if God cares about this tradition and the healing of people in my faith system, Someone needs to be a voice and actually talk about what's going on. And many people are able to do this behind closed doors, which became kind of a point of conflict with my local priesthood leaders. Do whatever you want, just do it quiet. We just don't want you doing this on a microphone in front of thousands of people because what you're doing is exposing on a grander scale, some of the issues that we don't want to acknowledge are actually happening. And so I knew when I entered into this that it may be that the institution would be unhappy with this, but to me, I was not concerned about the institution. I was interested in my integrity between myself and my higher powers. And it is in the service of helping the institution if it chooses to be served and helped by, you know, professionals like myself. And yet at the same time, I, I feel grateful every day of my life that independent of whether or not they appreciate me or understand me, There are hundreds and hundreds and even, I would say, thousands of people based on my numbers that are, are absolutely different people and are evolving and changing and expanding and healing and their marriages are healing and their mental health is better. And so when I look at the cost benefit ratio of this, it doesn't even— I don't even pause for a half second because I know what I'm about and I know who I am and I know what I'm doing. And I have all of the validation I need from the sources that matter to me.

Well, so can I ask you— maybe this is sort of a philosophical question, because there are an awful lot of people in the therapy space that overlaps with the church space, and some of them have been excommunicated, some have kind of gotten a pass. I mean, it's very much sort of a leadership roulette sort of thing. And it, I think, is getting harder and harder to sort of pin down where the line is. Uh, and I'd be very interested in hearing where you think the line is. Uh, or if, if there is a line or if it's just so fuzzy or so difficult to define that nobody really knows if there's a line. Uh, I, I mean, I have an opinion on that. I think there are some really sort of hard lines that are drawn out there, but I think there are others that are a whole lot fuzzier. Uh, where do you think the line is?

I think that this is complicated because, as you mentioned before, it's variable. It really depends on the temperament of the congregation and the leadership, as at least was our situation. So for those who are hearing our, my story for the first time, it's, it was leadership roulette multiplied by local, um, I guess we could say co-congregants, people in my ward and stake that sort of, um, reported their concern in larger numbers than, um, well, All I can speak to is what we were told by our local leadership that this was happening. To this day, I don't really actually know who— I have some ideas, but I will never know. We'll never know. And so when we were told that this was happening, of course, one starts to feel a little bit uncomfortable coming and going from church from week to week, right? And so I think that's a piece of it. I, uh, after we, uh, kind of went public with what we've been through, I'm, I'm really touched to have not only like an ocean of support coming in from all over the world from people who have been grateful for our work, but a decent number of ward and stake priesthood leaders reaching out and saying, this is, this is appalling. Like, I'm so sorry you went through this. Like, this would have never happened. And where they, where they were presiding. And I even have a dear friend that's 30 minutes across the state line. I live quite close to the state line and she's pretty confident that, you know, she may have been slightly joking, but she said, I wouldn't be surprised if my bishop and stake president listened to your podcast as, you know, as the, based on the way they sort of, um, operate and the way her stake is run. And so, I mean, there is that piece of it that I think is always up in the air. I think there are geographical components to look at, but at the same time also, I even think that's quite tricky because one of the most liberal areas in the country— well, you think of the coasts, right? I know I'm being very, very, you know, I'm being probably too, uh, generic about this, but you think, okay, you got the coasts that are probably going to be more liberal, at least in the United States, and then the more you kind of go inland is going to become more conservative, and then the South, of course, right? And so, of course, the joke we've always said since we've lived here is you couldn't be farther away from an ocean if you tried than in Kansas City, right? We are almost as smack in the middle of the United States as one can get and have some of this, the Midwestern influence, but also quite a bit of Southern influence here. And then you layer on top of that, we're in Jackson County, Missouri, so we were not set up to succeed. In this particular situation.

Not to interrupt, but do you get people that come to Jackson County, Missouri, who have this special calling because they have to be there when the Second Coming is going to come next Tuesday?

It's happened consistently the entire 20 years we've lived here. And I wouldn't say it's droves of people, but there's a trickle in and out that we will hear of, of people that, that have experiences that lead them this, this way. And so We will never know to the degree that all of these factors play in. It's just to me, as I sort of think about the big picture, that I think, I think it's worth at least considering, right? And so, so there's that thing. I mean, I will say too though that I've worked very closely with people on the West Coast and the East Coast who have very, very, uh, I would consider devout Orthodox wards. And I've also worked with people in the Midwest who have very liberal wards. So I just don't think you can I don't think you can definitely like narrow it down that, uh, sort of simplistically. I will also say, in the, um, in the current culture that we are living in, I think there is a hypersensitivity around, uh, how one speaks about authority. Um, and I am inclined to believe it's actually more significant than it even used to be 5 and 10 years ago, that there is something going on. I, well, I have, I definitely have my theories, but that's for another podcast. But I think that there are, there are things going on that make, uh, there's sensitivity around saying anything or even alluding to anything that suggests that general leadership is not right. We can say that prophets are infallible as long as we're very, very general about that principle. Like, that's generally what one will say, but as soon as we start talking about a specific topic, it feels like, you know, it gets very, very, The energy in the air changes and it's not okay. Yeah.

You said infallible, but you mean fallible, right?

I'm sorry.

We can fallible, but we can't specifically say anything they've done wrong. I mean, from my experience, that's the line that I consistently draw is that I really think that there is a much greater latitude to believe heretical or unorthodox things than people realize, but there is much, much less latitude for any criticism of a specific leader than people realize. Yeah, the way I put it is like, I, I could talk about Heavenly Mother all day long, but I get in trouble if I start talking about an apostle who wears ugly ties. Yeah, something really insignificant. But just singling out a leader.

Yeah.

For criticism can, can really get you into trouble. Do you feel like that's what's gotten you into trouble?

Uh, the answer, quite frankly, no. And the reason why, well, I'm gonna say yes and no. And let me, let me explain. Nathan and I never talked about leaders disrespectfully or critically. Like we, that was part of my like fundamental baseline value system is that I truly believe that human beings in general are good. We all are— like when I say God loves each and every one of us and we all get to go home, that means everybody. And I believe that people mean well. And therefore, I believe that of the leadership of this church because they are my brothers. I believe intent. People try to do their best. I believe people are earnest. And so when I began this podcast, there were a couple of just foundational values that I rested my work on quite intentionally, and it was that I, I want to persuade with love, and I want to persuade by looking at those who are harmed or those who are wounded. And I want to be respectful, and I want to be gracious and give people the benefit of the doubt. So we look at situations, we look at what's going on in the lives of people on the ground in the hours and hours and hours spent with people. And then what I do is I talk about beliefs or practices that cause suffering, that cause mental health issues, that cause harm, that cause relationship distress, that cause suicidality. And so what I do is I'm looking at actual experiences of people, and then I use my conceptualization skills to sort of look at theology and psychology and Christian history and relationship, uh, health. And I, and I sort of meld these together so that we can understand what is going on and how can we look at our own system to help people within the system thrive. And so I will look at ideas and I will look at, at teachings And I will never say, this is what needs to happen, or this leader does this and shame on them, they're a bad person, all right? Like, I never, I've never done that and I never plan to do that moving forward. It's not, it's not who I am. However, I will say, for example, if someone is told that they are not allowed to take the sacraments in their congregation with their partner and children, they will feel shame, and shame wounds the soul. And if one is led to believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with them and it's a public setting, it will hurt them. And this is not what is conducive to leading someone who is already suffering to healing. It will hurt them more. And so that's just one example that I give and that we talk about quite, you know, on the podcast. And what we do is we just look at what is conducive to the thriving of the soul because healthy psychology and healthy theology actually, um, go together. And so we will talk about these things, and by default, are we talking about theological principles that are not, in my opinion, in the keeping of the nature of God? The answer to that question is yes, we will talk about that, but we never will disrespectfully talk about a human being or their intent And I'm very careful about my tone. I also think that tone matters because I want to be a healer. I want to persuade people to feel that I do care about the tradition that they love. And that's one of the things that I've heard over and over again, which is, I can tell you care about the church, but I can also tell that you are committed to healing and to God. And so you're holding space for something that's really tricky, and that's why I trust you. And, and, and so I think that's sort of the, um, the, the tightrope I walk in order to help people feel that they can trust me, but also that I will offer to them validation that if you're feeling pain for something and you don't have words for it and you don't know why and you feel guilty or afraid to acknowledge it, I'll go ahead and just acknowledge it with you. Because if you're feeling it and I'm talking about it, it's because I have worked with people for hours and hours and hours and hours. Who are feeling and suffering in the same way. And so we just need to be, um, in— like, we need to— is my— in my opinion, discipleship, and even like the concept of like, um, sustaining the church and its leaders, is about offering informed, loving feedback when something isn't working and it doesn't feel good. It evolves and changes. That's actually how systems and countries and worlds and churches work. It's not that they, you know, there's any need to feel shame or get defensive. It's how we evolve as children of God. We get more intel, we see what's helping and not helping, we talk about it, and then we grow.

I'm— this is fascinating. I'm listening and hearing you from one perspective I have as a bishop and a member of the stake presidency. And I want to go back to the— just connect to the point that Jim Bennett said about the question, what is the line? And you've connected a lot of dots for me from my— from that perspective. And there's a few thoughts that come to mind. I, I, I'll— if, if I may, I'll, um, uh, hazard a guess, I think a reliable guess, as to where and how this went wrong for you in terms of, you know, your situation right now, where they— it sounds like they were— again, correct me if I'm wrong— that they were— there was evidence that they were going to organize a— used to be called disciplinary meeting, but a membership review meeting. Um, I just want to touch upon that in a few minutes, but my, my point— so I want to connect up Beyond leadership roulette, because as a bishop, I could tell you that in a stake presidency, you can be as liberal as you need to be or can be in a stake or a ward. But at a certain point, that's taken away from that leader. I don't know if you know that, but when there's a problem, when the problem gets big enough and the stake president is not dealing with it, and the stake president is the king, he's the keyhole. Most things that happen, and units and stakes happen at the state presidency level. Anything extremely serious that where the state president is too liberal, I could tell you that the leadership, the senior leadership will take over and they will release that state president if they need to be. I think where it went wrong is that your podcast was successful. That was a problem. You resonated and reached thousands of people on issues that were very, very important to them. Two. Three, these individuals were getting an extraordinary amount of help and benefit from listening to the podcast. You were taking over or replacing fundamental church services, and the professional counseling in the church is a fundamental bedrock of the church where the see, the bishop, the church controls the entire process and also makes the referral to the professional counselor who's an active, upstanding member in the church, ideally with a temple recommend, et cetera. These are very established, very important processes that the church protects. And by the way, when I was interviewed, called and set apart by Elder Oaks, Dallin H. Oaks, and Elder Cook, first question he asked me was, have I done anything in my— is there anything in my history or background that could be brought to the service that could damage the church? Fortunately, there wasn't, but that was the first question. Protect the institution. Protect the policies, protect the processes. And I think where it started to go pear-shaped was that you were helping thousands of people in a way that the church couldn't or wouldn't— wasn't able to do, uh, you know, to the extent that you could. You were dealing with issues that the church doesn't want to be public, not to a big broader audience, and you were going out there by yourself with good intent trying to help people, doing something that the church couldn't or wouldn't do helping all these people, the church felt it had no control over you. You weren't in the system, in the process, you weren't following the lane, if you like. It felt threatened. And when it feels threatened, especially when thousands of people are involved and it can't control that, when it gets threatened, and we see that right now, the church makes, you know, a beeline and guns for people. As they were, I understand they were going to do that with me. I resigned, fortunately. I resigned because I was gonna resign anyhow, but I took that power away from him and I made that decision. Am I close, do you think? Am I close to some of the reasons why you think that happened? And the other thing is, if we can, before we end the podcast a bit later, just to plant this in your mind, I'm interested in getting your perspective on the relationship between individual personal challenges of anxiety and depression and other personal issues that come to the bishop and the doctrine and the policies of the church. And I mention that right now because we're coming up probably the next 15 minutes to the hour that we've got with you. But I think there is a correlation between either a problem that's created because of the doctrine, you talked about shame and guilt and the need to live with perfection and to live this certain standard and people can't do that and therefore they feel like a failure. There's a doctrinal relationship, a policy relationship you speak to a little bit later. But going back to my points there, trying to connect the dots. Do you think, and beyond roulette and beyond this liberal orthodox role, you know, that some leaders play, etc., do you think I'm on the mark there? Do you think that those are some of the factors as to why you, you know, took the decision to remove your membership, that, you know, that's something you foresaw? Do you think I'm close or not in regards to those points.

I, I like your analysis. I think that's, I think that's really, uh, savvy. I don't, I hadn't thought about it that way, but what you're saying like tracks. I guess where I, I, the reason why I hadn't thought of it the way you're describing is that you've been in all these leadership callings and I've, I haven't, right? I don't know, like, I don't know how the sausage is made exactly, you know, um, from a ward and stake level. I, I will say that we didn't pursue conversation with ward and stake leaders and had no problems for the first year and a half. Well, I say we had no, like, I don't know what problems they were having with us, but nobody was talking to us. Um, we were at the tail end of one stake president who had been a personal friend, and you can, there's more that I say about that in the earlier, in some of the other, um, the Tribune article and things, but, um, By the time we hit the second, the new stake president, um, I think a couple of factors were at play. First of all, I, I think that when he invited us to come in with his whole stake presidency and my bishop, we immediately were aware that like, okay, hmm, that's, that's irregular, right? And so we knew that that was problematic. And so we, we started this, um, this series of conversations and I had spent the first portion of the time talking to my first stake president from a place of fear and kind of like I'd had my hand caught in the cookie jar and I was sort of like projecting the, um, disapproval that he was feeling for me on myself. The old, I guess the former Orthodox version of me was really able to take in exactly, you know, what, how I was being seen. And I was feeling very defensive and frightened, uh, because again, I think that there's a taboo associated with being called into not only the principal, but like the whole upper management of the, you know, of the elementary school to use that metaphor. And so, so that was a part of it earlier on. And then as I found my, um, I feel like God has like carried me in the hollow of their hands as this has unfolded because I moved into this space of confidence and of reassurance that I will, I will engage in conversation with these gentlemen and I will act as if I am not doing anything wrong because the deeper into the process I went, the more I knew I wasn't doing anything wrong. And so I pursued conversation and I pursued, we went, as I, I don't think I've mentioned this anywhere else, but in an effort to support our son to go to the temple, we, we went all the way up. We talked to our authority 70. Um, we had a friend of a friend who connected us at least. Well, I never had a personal conversation, but those testimonials that were read on the first podcast the day that we, um, went public with this, supposedly ended up in the inbox of one of the Twelve Apostles, who then kicked it down to a Seventy. I mean, we were pursuing advocacy at every level of leadership because we were doing good work. We were helping the church. And it got kicked up and down the hierarchy, and soon, of course, we realized we have no one. No one is going to help us. And so what I kind of think is, and it all landed in the lap of the stake president, and God bless him, I think he means well. I truly, truly do. And of all the gentlemen we talked to, he did not understand what we were experiencing and what we were doing. He just didn't. And I think sometimes when someone is, this circles us back to the first part of our conversation, when someone is really just out of their pay grade, and they're being asked to do something and to discuss issues that are just fundamentally not inside of what they understand. It'd be sort of like somebody trying to sit down with me and like ask me how to teach them calculus. I, I, at least I would have the wisdom to say I don't know. But I think these gentlemen want to know. They want to be able to do what they've been asked to do. And so In an effort to try to manage us, we ended up in these sort of circular conversations that always led to follow the prophet and covenant path. And every time I tried to engage them or him in anything with even just a modicum of complexity, like what's really happening on the ground as opposed to like sort of theoretical ideas about doctrine, Uh, it, it went nowhere. And so I think in his effort to diligently do what he thought was right, he saw, he was, I think, overwhelmed. And I think he sort of just diminished it down to sort of the binary black and white. Is she, are they formally following the prophet? And I mean, I guess one would have to say under the circumstances that this is not a yes, no question. I would, I would say yes, we are sustaining the growth of the church and giving information. We are trying to help our brothers and sisters. We're on the same team. If I got a nickel for every time I said that to a priesthood leader in the last 18 months, I could quit my job. We are on the same team. We are helping. We are doing good things here. They didn't want us to do— well, let me say it differently. Addressing the fact that we were doing good things and people were healing would require them to, um, acknowledge that We, there was a problem and we couldn't even get past step A, step 1, right? And so I think what happened at the end of the day was in their overwhelm that it seemed very clear to them that Valerie and Nathan Hamacher were not going to stop the Latter-day Struggles podcast. I was respectful, but I made that very clear. This is a call that I have received. It's a, it's a vocation. It is my job, but it's also a call. I feel deeply about this and I'm going to keep doing it. And I'm going straight to God on this one. I'm not, I'm not needing your validation and approval. And I think in their effort to like manage something that felt very overwhelming, specifically from a woman who isn't afraid, who's treating them like equals, trying to be collegial and, um, have an egalitarian, let's have a conversation. It was so out of their realm. Um, My sense is, is that the simplest way to make this go away was to make us go away.

Do you think it would be different if you were a man?

I don't know. I don't know. I— my first guess is probably not, but The sense I got, and again, this is just my interpretation, so I, I maintain I don't— I— we can never know what's going on in the minds of anybody else. But the sense I got in, in the interactions that we had was that Nathan had betrayed the Brotherhood and I was just out of line because I was, um, not behaving the way a woman should behave in a patriarchal system. And so, and I will say with some of the priesthood leaders that I worked with, I was treated very respectfully. I didn't feel a sense of sort of one-down superiority. I will say with one of them, I felt very one-down as if, how dare you? What are you doing? You should not, like the fact that I even had a voice and confidence and a sense of who I am and what I'm doing, I did get the feeling from one of them that even that was very off-putting for him. And again, I can't really know, but I'm just sensing, I feel like I'm a pretty intuitive person. And some of the gentlemen were uncomfortable, but they were very respectful. And I could tell that they, I didn't feel a problem around my being a woman, but certainly with one I did.

We're coming up to the hour that we've got with you. We are so grateful to have you with us. But I want to go back to the question I asked earlier. If you can just speak briefly or however much time you've got between the relationship between the doctrine of the church, the policy of the church, you spoke a bit about the patriarchy. That's the whole of the conversation that I'd love to have with you and Jim Bennett. But could you speak to, is there a relationship between anxiety, depression, people's personal relationship issues and specific doctrine and policies. You mentioned in the sacrament where people sometimes are instructed by bishops not to take the sacrament, and it's a public setting, and that brings an awful lot of shame. Could you speak to those relationships between doctrine and policy and those positions?

So I think that this is a complicated phenomenon because we all know and love people who have been and are and will perhaps maintain a very, very, um, rich, um, positive, life-giving relationship with, with the, with the church, this church or other churches, right? And it just, it works for them. It's just resonant with them, and they just don't see the problem. And when somebody else has a problem, they can't fathom what's going on, right? And then I think you have other people who have either other temperaments or other experiences that evoke an enormous amount of pain and suffering. Anyone who has any tendencies towards anxiety that channels itself in any sort of like a scrupulosity or OCD sort of thing, they're going to very likely feel a lot of pain and suffering in a high-demand religion that is, is very sort of rules-oriented and has a high measuring stick towards obedience multiplied by, um, any kind of a God image that is scary and punitive. These are the kind of people that are sort of set up to feel a great deal of anxiety and depression and just a lot of internal agony. Some of them every day of their lives for a very, very long time until they unhook themselves from these internalized beliefs about themselves and about God and about sin and punishment. And so it's, it's interesting because it has a lot to do not only with, um, some of the doctrine, but it also has to do with the temperament of the individuals. Now, to set that aside, I'll, I'll say just a little bit about something else that I, I feel passionate about. And you mentioned we ought to maybe have another conversation, so I'll just give just a tiny little taste of what I feel is that I am very, very interested in issues of gender and sexuality. I feel that some of the greatest shadows that we are, I and others that I love in this space, are endeavoring to address is the shadows of our issues around gender, sexuality, and power here in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And it's a big one. And it really does inform a lot of the pain and suffering that people have if they have pain and suffering connected to the church. And so, Just recently, uh, Nathan and I really dug deeply into, uh, and we're still kind of doing these series off and on, the, the, the how much patriarchy and systems like formalized systems of gender inequality harm humans. Now we talk about women's issues and I love talking about women's issues, and yet at the same time, not very many people in the Mormon discourse world talk a lot about how men are wounded by issues of patriarchy, and yet they are profoundly wounded in their psychological and spiritual development by being a part of a system that teaches them from very early in their consciousness that they are superior to, to half of the, you know, rest of the world. And so there are psychological impacts that, that women and men are going to experience because of the structure and theology of the church. And again, some people are not going to feel it very strongly. Maybe they haven't been exposed to harm as much as others, or maybe their temperaments are such that it, there, it doesn't, it doesn't, um, touch them as much. But for some, it does. And I think in 2025, in this day and age where we're living in a world that is more and more acknowledging, um, the harm done in systems of oppression, there are many women and men that are awakening to the real— to the reality that almost anywhere you go in the, in the Western world, women are treated equally. And people that are on a faith journey or that are psychologically developing, that are working through stages of moral development, male and female, are interested in the growth of the soul and in offering flourishing environments for others as well. And so I definitely am passionate about that, and I know that that in this day and age is Um, is again, that's taboo. And that actually patriarchy and structures of power also segue themselves right into issues of LGBTQ+, because patriarchy teaches people, women and men, how one must behave to sort of belong to a patriarchal system. And so women are told how they behave, and gender and sexual minorities also are sort of implicitly or explicitly told what the rules of engagement are, and anybody that transgresses those rules will be punished. And so that's sort of what systemically we are taught in a sort of white, cisgender, heterosexual culture. And then if you just layer on top of that a church system that now has endorsed it as, um, like theological mandate, you know, with God's stamp of approval, uh, you have a petri dish for pain and suffering if somebody doesn't sort of, um, obey the rules of engagement according to that system. And so I do talk about that because I care deeply about our people. I love my Latter-day Saint heritage people. I am one of you, and I don't care what the records say. That doesn't change. I am deeply committed to doing the work of God. And, um, where I formally stand, honestly, I think, um, I don't even really think about it. I'm not— it doesn't, it doesn't resonate with me as far as, um, my feeling like I belong or don't belong, because I think when one belongs to themselves, they belong wherever they want. And, um, and that's why I think I'm just as committed as ever. I, I'm just grateful that I get to do this and that I get to be in some way instrumental in helping my Latter-day Saint heritage brothers and sisters find God and find themselves and find peace.

Valerie, thank you so much for that. I want to just give some time to you, Jim Bennett. Any closing remarks from your perspective? And then I just want to go back to you, Valerie Bennett, as we close here. I want to ask you, Is there any summarizing or final messages that you would deliver to the First Presidency if they were listening to this podcast? And we understand that some of the leaders of the church, perhaps not the First Presidency, do listen to the Inside Out podcast. We understand from time to time, you know, what message do you have for the leadership of the church and what they would change? But Jim, just a minute or so with you to provide any closing remarks from your end.

Well, I, all I want to do is thank you so much, Valerie, for sharing all this with us. I think you've given me particularly an awful lot to think about. I'm going to listen to this, I think, multiple times because you've said so many things that are so insightful, uh, and that have sort of given me a different perspective on some of these issues that I really want to revisit it and think it through. But I am just so grateful that you're out there. I'm so grateful that you feel called to do this and that you are doing this because I think you are blessed more lives than you could possibly know. And so I just, I'm sorry that this has been whatever the circumstance is. It just seems, still seems quite heartbreaking to me. And, but I just want you to know that certainly I appreciate what you're doing. I think there are many of us that are still in the church that very much appreciate what you're doing, and I hope you are able to continue doing it for a very, very long time.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Jim. Valerie, I echo what Jim said. I won't add to that. It's how I feel. I've learned so much from you. Even if we weren't— we're just having the three of us having a conversation, I've learned so much from you. You're an extraordinary, courageous, incredibly insightful woman and individual and professional counselor helping so many people. Don't stop, even though you're not a member, that makes no difference whatsoever. That does not define you, does not control you. You are an extraordinary individual helping so many people. Don't stop, keep helping people. I know you will. I know you will continue to do that. Any final comments, messages that you want to share, including what would you tell the leadership of the church to do differently?

I think if I had just one thing to say. I think what I would want to communicate is that, um, there's nothing wrong with needing to evolve. And I've given this so much thought because it's the same with individuals as it is with systems. Which is that when one knows at their core that they're good, they don't have a problem or they don't feel afraid or shame or anger or threat when they receive feedback that evolution is important and necessary. And to the degree that one feels shame or feels that there's something scary, that needs to be hidden, it is then that they become afraid and aggressive. And so what I would incur, like, what I would love for them to know is that, like, it's okay to be messy. It's okay for a, a human or a church system to have messy, to not have it all figured out. To not have the perfect theology or the pristine history. It's okay to acknowledge that we are all growing. And if we truly believe— this is the thing, it's built into our theology. We believe in this concept of restoration. If we could just allow ourselves to look at ourselves and say, hmm, We used to do it this way. It hurts people. Let's look at it. Let's take some feedback from the smart people all around us and from their experiences and from their suffering and from, you know, the successes and, and the failures of the system. And let's just take all of this in and collaboratively grow together so that we can truly support individuals and families. And I think if, if that mentality were embraced, then this wouldn't be a threat and it wouldn't be so scary because I think when we are afraid, that's when we act aggressive. But if we have no fear because we know who we are and we know we're good as a church or a human, then we just let things come in and we learn and we grow and we collaborate. And, and then, um, violent situations like what Nathan and I have been through would never happen.

Jim Bennett, thank you. Valerie Bennett, thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you very much, Valerie, and thank you, Ian.

Thank you.