A Force for Good

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes and I'm here with the most delightful, stupendous, and handsome Mr. Bennett.

We're lucky this is an audio podcast, so they don't know how much you're lying on the handsome part.

But well, I put your face into AI and it honestly, it struggled a bit, but it came up with a, there's a limit to technology, right? Of what AI can do with, you know, with people's handsome looks. But it came back and said, we can't improve upon this handsome fella. So I think we've reached the limit of AI. You're that handsome.

I certainly am capable of breaking AI. I'm happy to admit that.

So anyway, it's wonderful to be with you and excited to have this conversation. I've just been away in Mexico. I went also to another city in Calgary. So we're running a little bit late this week on the podcast. We want to thank our listeners for being incredibly patient. We do our best to organize and structure our podcasts. There's a preparation involved. And so we thank you for your patience in terms of getting the next podcast, this podcast that we're about to do, getting this one out. Very excited about this podcast because as I was flying up from Mexico, I was thinking about what some of the topics we could be discussing. And the one thing that kept coming back to me quite frequently, and it's probably because I was away and relaxed with my family and feeling all kind of, you know, probably stress-free and quite positive. I was thinking and reflecting upon, uh, and actually I had conversations with my family on this, thinking and reflecting upon all of the blessings that the church had brought into my life from the time that I was investigating the church, the teaching, uh, learning experiences as I was investigating the church, joining the church was challenging, but it going forward after the, you know, first few weeks and months of joining the church, my life transformed. Improved. I met new friends, had a, my life had a sense of purpose and meaning, which I didn't have before. And I would say, for the most part, almost the entire experience, or most of the experience in the church was extremely positive to me. And I was thinking about, we could do a conversation on the many, many qualities and attributes of the church. And by way of, uh, context, uh, which, and, and context is very, very, uh, in important. Uh, the church, as you know, Jim Bennett, is facing many challenges, continues to face many challenges, has faced many challenges around policy, doctrine, history, leadership, women in the church, LGBTQ, tax. Finance, tithing. There seems to be an endless list of issues and problems and challenges with the church, and we've covered some of those topics over the last couple years or so. Notwithstanding, there are many, many qualities that the church brings to, you know, to the world and to the members. And I've made a just bit of a a list here and I've made my own list. But what I thought we'd do, instead of me kind of reeling them off, all the qualities, I thought you and I could go back and forward and just kind of highlight some of the qualities, attributes, and the blessings that the church has actually brought into your life and into my life. And I want to start off by saying that for me, being a convert to the church and going from, an experience of feeling at that time as a young, uh, boy, 16-year-old. And before that, my experience was a feeling of being alone, lost, little or no purpose, little or no meaning to my life, no direction, very few, uh, positive role models in my life and low self-esteem. Virtually no confidence. And I think about the blessings from the church and how the church teachings and the culture of the church, the positive elements of the church, actually changed all of those things that I've just mentioned. And I think the first thing I could highlight with the church that I felt from the very first time I met the Mormon missionaries and started getting to know some of the members was a sense of friendship. And so my friends, I had some good friends growing up, uh, just a few good friends. And I define friendship as differently now, I think, from growing up when I was a young boy in Yorkshire, in that coal mining community in Yorkshire. Friendship then was, you know, hanging out with your mates and doing fun things after school and, um, playing soccer or rugby or et cetera. And they were fun times for sure. But no real conversations that I had back then, you know, real close friendships that were talking about other things other than sports and other, you know, physical activities. There was no emotional or sharing one's thoughts and feelings about certain things. And I certainly had those as a young man. And so when I joined the church, I felt that that part of me, that emotional part of me and the intellectual part of me and my hopes and aspirations for my, my life. I felt that I'd connected with a group of people that was interested in me and cared about me and wanted to be a genuine friend to me. And I really felt that almost from day one. And so when I went to church and I went into the youth program, there were, and the youth leaders were extraordinary. They were interested in me. And I remember sitting down with the, they called it MIA back then, MIA, right? And so you had these, you know, I got baptized. I had this interview with the branch president at the time who was really interested in me. And I was amazed that they were interested in me and my life. And I sat down with one of the youth leaders and they asked me about what I want to do with the rest of my life and where do I want to go and what my work or, you know, I want to go to college. And so these are questions I'd never, never, no one had ever asked me before. And so it was a completely different experience. And the person that was with me, the youth leader was, was with me, was just very genuine. There's a wonderful spirit and I felt I'd come home and I felt I'd made these new friends and that actually Uh, in many ways say it saved me and I will be forever grateful about these new friends that accepted me for who I was, was interested in me, and especially at a time where I, I needed that. And I've never forgotten that. And so I think about this actually often. I miss, you know, many of my friends in the church who have, uh, I think maybe decided that because I'm not active in the church, that the friendship is probably compromised, which kind of sad, breaks my heart in a way. But I still retain, you know, obviously quite a few friends, uh, you know, in, in the church, some at least. But that was the, uh, one of the, the very, one of the first amazing blessings and experiences in my life. And I am grateful to the church, uh, for that. Uh, I can think of many, many other qualities and attributes of the church. But I also wanna pass this, pass this over to you and ask you, um, how's the church blessed your life over the years? You know, you've been in the church your entire life. You've had extraordinary parents who've done a wonderful job raising all of you as, you know, family members, very in contrast to my, um, non-functioning family, frankly, very non-functioning and, uh,— I'd say dysfunctional family. You had a high-functioning family, wonderful relationships, and a very different youth and, and experience growing up in the church and a different experience to mine. Could you share with me, uh, one of your earliest thoughts where you connected, uh, uh, the church's teachings, the experience in the church, et cetera, to a very important blessing that came into your life at the early stage of your life? And you thought, my goodness, how grateful that you are to be in the church because of this particular blessing. Could you, could you think of one?

My goodness, I had not thought to go there, and now as you say that, something just leaps to mind. So I, I grew up in Southern California, and back in the day they used to do big, huge pageants in the church. They— we've sort of discontinued some of that, and that makes me sad. I think we've discontinued pretty much all of it. You know, they had the Hill Cumorah pageant in New York. They had some pageant which I've never seen, but it was down by the Manti Temple. And at one point, they did a pageant called Third Nephi. It was a It was a musical, and it was essentially a dramatization of the story of Third Nephi. And on this occasion, I was 11 years old, and my aunt lived in Westwood, California, and she was assigned to gather children who would play the Nephite children waiting for Christ to come. And She, it was, you know, we were in Los Angeles and I was, I was already sort of a budding thespian. And she says, and you'll get paid. She says, it's a paid position. I got paid for the entire run of the show. I got paid a whopping $5 and that just meant the world to me. I was like, aha, I'm a paid actor now. I've made it. I've arrived. Anyway, we, we did this, we did this show and I, I don't even think I saw it because I was backstage for most of it. So I don't even know the bulk of it, but, uh, we were taught two songs to sing in the show. One of them is a song that has since been included in the children's hymnbook. It's called "I Feel My Savior's Love." Are you familiar with "I feel my Savior's love"? Da da da da da da da.

Yeah.

And this was, this came from this pageant. It was written for this pageant. And there was another song called "The Love of God," which I'm foreshadowing the end of the story, it, but for a very long time I had not heard since the time that I did the show. And it goes something like, the love of God leads me on, his precious love fills my song, his love is pure, how freely it comes that we may all be one. I just remember snippets of it. I don't remember the whole thing. Anyway, we were doing this and I have always sort of felt connections to the divine through music, and it's one of the reasons why the Tabernacle Choir is so special to me, is because I feel that connection every time I go to a Tabernacle Choir rehearsal, every time I have an opportunity to sing just beautiful music with talented spiritual people. And it's, it's how I connect, and it sort of is rooted in this experience. So I remember just the first time the show was put on in the Shrine Auditorium. Uh, the Academy Awards had been held in the Shrine Auditorium. It's just this big, massive space. It's what's very funny is it's right next to the University of Southern California. When I was 11 years old, my mother said, When you go to the Shrine Auditorium, whatever you do, do not go outside. This is the roughest area in the whole world. There are gangs. You're going to be killed if you walk outside. And so I was terrified of going outside. And then years later, I lived on campus at the University of Southern California in my freshman dorm., and my first class was at the Performing Arts Annex, and I had to walk past the Shrine Auditorium to get to it. I thought, "Ah, I'm now living in the most dangerous place in the world," which it really kind of was. I mean, I lived in Los Angeles during the 1992 Rodney King riots. That's a whole other story. So here I am playing one of the Nephite children. The actor who played Jesus was just— I projected everything I thought or believed about Jesus onto him. That when he appeared to the Nephites and we burst into song, uh, I felt this sort of overwhelming connection to the divine and this overwhelming realization that Jesus was real. This actor wasn't really Jesus, but there really was a Jesus, and, and Jesus knew me and cared about me. And at one point, there was a testimony meeting for the entire cast, and we were seated in the Shrine Auditorium with its, I don't know, 3,000, 10,000 seats. I don't know, they're just It's just this huge space. And we were sort of huddled up next to the stage. And as we were singing it, or I'm sorry, at the testimony meeting, the guy who'd written the music was talking and he said, I want you to remember every time you sing the Love of God, because You feel something every time you sing that. He just said that to all of us, but it felt like he was boring right into my soul. And I thought, yeah, I do feel something every time I sing that. And he said, that which you feel is the love of God. And that just sort of kind of exploded into me. I mean, I think of the Joseph Smith saying, "Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine." That's sort of how I felt. And it was the one time I can sort of pinpoint in my youth, in my childhood, where I knew God loved me. I knew God cared about me, and I knew God knew me by name, that, that I was important to God. Me individually, little Jim Bennett. And it was decades later, probably about 10 years ago, when I went to a stake conference, and I don't know where they dug it up, but the stake choir had found an arrangement of the song "The Love of God," and they started to sing it, and instantly that came back to me. Instantly, in that moment, I felt the love of God. I knew God loved me. I knew God knew me and knew me by name. And it was as if no time had passed whatsoever. And those kinds of moments, those kinds of connections, are things that the church actively facilitates. When we talk about the church, and even if we're critical of the church, We, we— there is no denying, at least in my life, that the church has facilitated a connection to deity, that through the church, through activity in the church, through service in the church, I have been able to essentially be introduced to God and make that connection with God. And so that's one of the reasons I think why so many people, even the people who, um, who are critical of the church, or even if they're excommunicated from the church, you know, everybody— the cliché is you leave the church and you can't leave it alone. But to some degree, you leave the church and the church can't leave you alone, and in a good way, in that all of the goodness, all of the all of the, the, the teachings, that facilitation of the relationship with the divine, that doesn't just vanish when you walk out the door. That's still with you. So that's my long lengthy answer to your question. But before I throw it back to you, would you indulge me in telling a more modern story that I think goes along with this, with this? Please.

Please do.

Well, and I'm a little, uh, I'm hoping that this podcast comes out after the other person in the story releases their video where they tell this story. Uh, I think many of our listeners would be acquainted with our friend Nemo the Mormon, who we've interviewed on this podcast. And when we interviewed him on this podcast, he started talking about his love for music. His connection to the divine that he feels through choral music. And I think I even said on the podcast— it may have been afterwards when we were talking, but I think it may even be on the podcast— I said, look, the Tabernacle Choir has what they call musical guests. I am allowed to invite people to come to a Tabernacle Choir rehearsal and actually sing with the choir. You won't be singing in a performance, but you'll be singing in a rehearsal We'll give you the music and you'll sing along as if you are a member of the choir. And near the end of the rehearsal, Mack Wilberg will ask you to stand up and he'll read your bio and everybody will applaud and be glad that you're there. And he said, boy, that would be a lot of fun. And I said, well, let me know well in advance because it takes forever. I booked these guests sometime in the summer of last year, like June, July, or it was probably right after I had talked to Nemo. We had talked to Nemo on our podcast. And this didn't happen until just a couple of weeks ago. March 6th was the day that he had been booked. Because he said, yeah, I'd love to do that. And I'm going to be in Utah in March. And I would love nothing more. Than to sing with the Tab Choir. So, uh, I, I booked this. I went through all of the channels to make it happen. And then in September, Nemo was excommunicated, and he sent me a message and said, is that going to affect anything? Well, the first thing he said was— he actually sent me the message before he was excommunicated because he says, do you have to be a member of the church to sing with the choir? And I said, no, which is absolutely true. In fact, they encourage you to invite non-members to sing with the choir. I think there's no rule as to, uh, the status of the people you invite to sing. And if they're non-members, there are none of the conditions that apply to the members. If you're a member, you have to be either over 80 years old or live more than 500 miles away from the Tabernacle. So they don't want people to just invite their friends who live next door to them who are in the church, but they see it as a missionary opportunity, and so they want you to invite non-members. Now, excommunicated members, that's a little bit of, I would think, a little bit of a gray area. I had never asked. I hadn't thought about it. And he said, it's looking like I'm going to be excommunicated, and I would still love to do this. And I said, okay. Uh, then tell you what, I don't see a problem as long as we don't use this occasion to embarrass the church. I think in your bio, we don't talk about your podcast. We just talk about your choral experience. And I would very much appreciate it if you just didn't let anybody know you were doing this, that you don't go on your podcast and advertise this, that you're not trying to pull a fast one on the church, that you're not trying to embarrass the church. And Nimo could not have been more gracious, could not have been more understanding. No, I understand that. That's entirely appropriate. I very much want to do this. So time goes on and he shows up in Utah. I took him out to dinner and then we went to the Tabernacle. And it's really, really fun to see the choir through somebody else's eyes because you sort of start to take it for granted a little bit. You know, you go up and you sit in the choir loft and you really don't get a sense of what the choir sounds like as a full thing because you're in your own little corner of the world and you're listening to the people around you and you just get kind of a warped sense of what the total of it is. But when Nemo came, I sat with him out in the choir audience and he was not invited to come and sing in the loft until after sort of the opening there was a little bit of an opening rehearsal. Then there was a— we always have this sort of short devotional where a member of the choir presidency just shares a spiritual thought, and then the rehearsal begins in earnest. And that's when he was taken up to sing. But as we walked in and as I sat out there and the choir was singing and you could get the full impact and feel it, and you could see the look on Nemo's face I mean, he just, he was in heaven. He was just, wow, this is amazing. And I just thought, yeah, it really is, isn't it? So he ended up getting taken up into the loft. And I actually didn't sing in the loft that rehearsal because I was going to be gone on Sunday. So for attendance purposes, if you're going to be gone on Sunday, you still come to the rehearsal But they ask you to sort of sit on the side so that they can get a sense of who's going to be there on Sunday. So they know what the choir numbers are going to look like. And so I was sitting on the side and one of the guys who— he's, he's, I'm not sure what his official title is, but they're most of the people who are volunteers for the choir are former members of the choir. You have to end your service of the choir when you reach 60 years old. And many of these people. Say, oof, I want to do whatever I can to sort of stay involved. And so they volunteer, and some of them volunteer in the wardrobe department, and they deal with your suits and women's dresses. And, and other people— this guy is one of the volunteers who essentially arranges choir seating. You know, every Sunday there are different people who aren't there, and we get put into different chairs to make sure we look good and that there aren't any holes in the in the presentation. And so, this guy is the guy who actually took Nemo and found him a seat. And he came to me and he says, "Your friend looks like he's having a blast." And I said, "Yeah, he does, doesn't he?" And he did. Everybody around him was sort of chatting with him. He just seemed to be having a great time. And then we were talking and he says, "Now, is he a member of the Church?" And I got a little nervous and I, I said, well, let's see, do I, how do I finesse this? And I decided, you know what, what I'm going to do is just tell the truth. And I said, he used to be, and I said, he was when I booked this. And we talked a little more and I said, well, he's since been excommunicated. He's a podcaster. And he said some things that were controversial and he's since been excommunicated, but he still wanted to do this. Is that going to be a problem? And instantly this guy said, oh no, no, no, of course not. I hope he has a lovely time. I mean, there was absolutely no judgment. There was absolutely no condemnation. When we got in there, I got a text message and it was from a number I didn't recognize. And it said, now is Nemo sitting next to you? I went, oh crud, who's this? Who's— am I in trouble? And I Googled the number and found out it was a choir member who was cool. And I texted back, yes, it's Nemo. Please don't get me into trouble. And he says, oh no, no, I want to meet him. And so usually after they're introduced, they take them out and take some more pictures with them and they finish the rehearsal doing more music. But the guy I was sitting with who does the seating said, your friend looks like he's having way too much fun. Can we just leave him until the end of the rehearsal? I'm like, yeah, yeah, please do. And, and, uh, so we get to the end of the rehearsal and he comes down and the friend who texted me comes to meet him and a few other people recognized him and it was all positive and they're like, Nemo, hey, it's so fun to see you. Da da da da. So it was just the perfect evening until the very end. We get to the very end and we're literally walking out the door. And this woman who, I'm not going to name names. I don't want to give anything that might identify her. I said she's a woman, so you can try to figure it out from, it wasn't one of the men, but it was a woman who walks up to him and she said something like, um, Nemo, in his recording of it, says he said, I recognized you. I remember her saying, I know who you are. Either way, I'm not sure which one of us is right, but either way, it was very clearly a sarcastic attack, or like, aha, I've caught you kind of thing. I know who you are. And Nemo just tried to play it off and just went, shh, don't tell anyone. You know, just like, hahaha. He didn't— I don't think he recognized just how hostile she was being. And then she looks at me and she says, and I told Grant. Now Grant is the— is a former member of the choir. He actually sang in the choir with me while I've been here, but then he was sort of promoted to become the manager of the men's section. There's one man and the manages the men's section and one woman who manages the women's section, and Grant is sort of the head guy for all the men in the choir. She says, and I told Grant. And then she looked at Nemo and says, well, I hope you had a good time. Just like that, you know, it just was like, oh, come on, come on. Why do you have to be rude? Why do you have to be unkind? This was such a lovely evening. And he didn't hurt anybody. He had a great time. And so we walked back to the car and I just felt terrible. And I was apologizing up, down, and sideways. It was made a little bit better by another guy who walked up to him, recognized him, and said, hey, Nemo. Hey, it's so nice to see you. You know, so, but just this one person. Had just cast a pall over the entire evening, which was such a lovely evening. And so, uh, Nemo drives off in his car, I drive off in mine, and I went, I want to get out in front of this. I don't want to just have this percolating out there. If I'm in trouble for having invited someone who's been excommunicated to sing with the choir, I want to know now. So I found Grant's phone number and I gave him a call. And Grant was very pleasant. Hi, Jim, how are you? Grant, I'm doing well. And he just was like, oh, you know, how was your friend? Your friend seemed to enjoy it. I had also invited another woman that was completely non-controversial. I'll tell that story very quickly. I didn't know this woman. This is somebody I'd met on Twitter who said, my grandmother is dying and her final wish is to sing in the choir. And I went, oh, Well, I can arrange that. You know, I'm a big shot. So these are the only musical guests I've ever had were Nemo and this woman. Uh, she was 85 years old and she had throat cancer and her vocal cords were paralyzed. And she just wanted to sit in the choir loft and sing. And, and Mack Wilberg, the choir director, was visibly moved. When he read her bio. He just told the story of how she'd always wanted to sing with the choir, but she'd never really got the opportunity. And now at the age of 85, uh, with her vocal cords paralyzed, she just wants to sit in the loft and feel the testimonies of all the people around her. And at the end of it, she came away and she said, it was a miracle, uh, I was able to sing. And for one night she was able to sing. And it was just such a lovely experience, absolutely uplifting. And she's still very much an active member of the church, so nobody was going to give her a hard time for that. But it was Nemo that was attracting all the attention. And when I called Grant, I said, I understand this woman has talked to you, um, and I just wanted to— and he said, oh, Did she do that? She wasn't supposed to do that. Oh, I hope she wasn't rude. And I'm like, oh, she absolutely was rude. Oh no, we'll, we'll talk to her. We'll make sure that we'll, we'll smooth that over. I'm so sorry. And he says, Jim, you did absolutely nothing wrong. We were very grateful to have him here. Uh, please let him know that. Please let him know how much we appreciated his enthusiasm. I mean, they just could not have been more gracious. Well, this thing escalated because I was out of town that weekend and I'd gone down to Southern California with my family. We went and watched a tennis tournament in Indian Wells, which is right by Palm Springs. And I saw on my phone, uh, on Twitter, there's an account that attacks me. He's been attacking me for about 4 years and they had a picture. Of Nemo singing in the choir. And it was so obvious that the woman who had come and insulted him and been rude to him was the woman who'd taken the picture. You can see from the camera angle, you can just look, okay, she— the person taking the picture had to be sitting where this person sits in the choir loft. And it was just, this is Jim Bennett, he brings apostates to, uh, to sing with the choir. Jim Bennett stops bringing apostates to sing with the choir. How dare you, blah, blah, blah. And I went, oh my goodness. And it was at least kind of a relief to know that this woman— I assume this woman ran this account. She has since denied it, that she doesn't run it, but she had posted this picture in some private Facebook group. Anyway, So then I thought, okay, this is escalating out of control. This is just terrible. This is embarrassing. And so I texted Grant. I said, Grant, I just hope to let this die, but this post has appeared on Twitter from an account that's been harassing me for 4 years. And now I know that this woman is behind this account and I just, I don't know what to do. I really think this is a problem. And he says, oh, it absolutely is a problem. We will take care of it on Sunday. And so after the broadcast on Sunday, I got a call from Grant, and he talked to me. He says, yes, we sort of read her the riot act. If she does steps out of line again and does this again, she's on a short leash. She's in big trouble. And, and she said, well, I just don't think you understand just all the terrible things that Nemo has said about the church. And Grant said, "Really? So did Alma the Younger. So did Paul as he was attacking the early Christians." I mean, the whole experience was— it was just so encouraging to me because choir leadership every step of the way was going out of their way to be inclusive, to be kind, to be welcoming. And the thing that kept coming up over and over and over again is, I really hope he had a great experience. I really hope that he felt the Spirit. I— and good for you, Jim Bennett, for giving this guy an opportunity to engage with the Church in a positive way. And Nemo has since recorded his experience, because the other thing I said to Grant Bennett was I had talked to Nemo about this and told him, hey, don't— can we just not talk about this? Can you just not call attention to this? And Grant said, tell him to talk about it all he wants. Tell him to call as much attention to it as he wants. We were grateful to have him here. We hope he had a great time. And I mean, so the moral of the story, at least in the context of the discussion we're having here on this episode, is that it is so easy to look at the scandal of the moment. You know, we look at all of the, the, the, the things that are happening in our small— and I think it's a relatively small corner of the online world— where we see people who are in trouble with the church or even excommunicated from the church, and I think they have sort of a larger outsized— those moments have a larger outsized presence in at least my mind than they do in the world at large. I think for the most part, most members of the church go about their business and go about their worship without being troubled by any of this. And I often think, okay, well, all the terrible people who are online, the people who attack me relentlessly, the the Desnats and those sorts of folks, um, they have an outsized influence on my perception of the church. The reality is I think the vast majority of the members of the church and the leaders of the church are good, wonderful, decent people who would do anything to help you and do anything to lift you up. And so, on the whole, you know, when we talk about, we say things that are critical of the church, or we point out something that's happening that we're not happy with, I just think it's essential to remember that at its core, and the overwhelming majority of the people in this church, This is a force for good. These are good people. Uh, this church does good and even great things and blesses lives and lifts people up. And yes, it's not perfect. Yes, it falls down on occasion. So do I as an individual. All of us do. And I think we need to give as much grace to the church as a whole that we give individuals who struggle and fall down and then get back up and try to do good things. But I just, throughout my life, in summation here, and then I will shut up. I've said enough for 2 episodes here, probably. But in summation, I— the church has blessed my life in immeasurable ways from the time I was born all the way till now, and it continues to bless my life. And so I— if there is any doubt about that, if there's anybody listening to this podcast who thinks that Jim Bennett and Ian Wilkes, even though Ian Wilkes is no longer a member of the church, that thinks that we are somehow, uh, in any way opposed to the church or don't want the church to, uh, to flourish and thrive, uh, you're absolutely wrong. The reason we're doing this, the reason we engage with this, is because we love this church. This church has blessed both of our lives, continues to bless our lives, and we want to make sure that, that it continues to do so, uh, long after we're gone, continues to do so for our children and grandchildren and for and for the whole world. So there you go. I, I told you big long stories. I answered your question. I hijacked it and told the Nemo story, but I just want that out there. I want my side of that story out there because I think it makes the church look great. I think the church did a great thing here.

Yeah, I, I, I want to thank you for sharing that story there with Nemo and As I listen to you, I, I think this is extraordinary conversation and very timely because, you know, we're talking about the blessings that the church brings into our lives, and there are many. And you shared earlier your connection to deity, to God, to Jesus Christ, uh, and, and your sense of spirituality through music. Very, very important to you. It's, it's who you are. It's the very core of who you are. And Nemo, of course, had clearly a very positive, constructive experience. He also connects to his own spirituality through music. And so it's a wonderful blessing to him and to you to be able to go to the choir and to participate, to listen, and to experience that level of spirituality through music. That is a really important area of your life where your life and your family is enriched through spiritually, through music. And the church is phenomenal. I mean, you know, the hymns, the choir, you know, the connection with God and the connection with community, the connection with each other. Music connects us. The words, the lyrics, the sounds, the melodies, the spirituality behind them. And it's very, very important to you and to many others for sharing that. I think what's extraordinary about this conversation is that as we, our listeners may not know this, but we, our type and level of preparation for these podcasts varies. Often we have a topic, we think about it, you do your research, I do my research, we come to the podcast, um, usually, uh, prepared. Sometimes it's, um, you know, prepared with notes, of course. Other times, uh, for whatever reason, the conversation goes off in a different direction, and often, I think at least, in a very wonderful direction. And I think this podcast is no, uh, this conversation is no exception. As I was listening to you and And again, grateful for you sharing your insights and your stories there. Uh, you, uh, touched upon another, uh, area, a note that I made in preparation for this conversation, which is, uh, perhaps the church's greatest attribute, arguably the members. And I've got that here in my notes here, and I wanna just kind of add to what you've said. Because my life has been incredibly blessed and enriched through the members of the church. I could say after 35 years of serving in the church, different callings, different levels, following, leading, serving a mission, being a bishop, serving on the stake presidency, working in the auxiliaries, working in some volunteer capacity, like Helping Hands in Edinburgh, where You know, the stake got together in Edinburgh and did a lot of charity work in the Edinburgh stake, etc. The Young Drivers Challenge that we did in the Dalkeith Ward, numerous endless activities and actions that I've been involved in personally. The vast majority of that experience has been incredibly rewarding and enriching for me. And behind that is the extraordinary, Jim Bennett, the— and you know this, uh, as much as anyone in the church at any level— the extraordinary love and kindness and sacrifice and caring and commitment and devotion, um, and service again that the members, uh, commit and devote on a very personal level to help others. Often without reward, almost always without reward. You know, this is a, you know, people don't get paid, the members don't get paid to do this. They, you know, we're a volunteer, I use the word we because I still feel part of the church in many ways. We're a volunteer organization and we rely almost entirely on the kindness and the volunteerism of the members who give extraordinary amount of time and energy and resources to support the church and to help and support each other across a range of challenges and issues. And I just wanna just touch upon that briefly because that is, uh, this experience I wanna share with you is, for me at least, describes the, uh, extraordinary, uh, uniqueness and distinction of the church in how the members can bless our lives at a very personal level. I mentioned earlier that when I joined the church, I was in a pretty bad shape emotionally. I, I've shared a bit more of that detail on earlier podcasts. Uh, a few moments ago I shared that, uh, the, the incredibly, uh, the incredible value, um, and importance to me of friendships during the church. People actually interested in who I was and me thinking, yeah, why are they so interested? And I'm really not worth that much because, uh, are, are, are, are, are, am I worth more than what I think I am? Because they're, they, they're interested in being my friend. And it was, um, a very interesting transitional, emotional, spiritual time in my life. But there was one, uh, I mentioned that there was a, a leader, youth leader that, um, blessed my life. And I want to mention him by name because he's a wonderful man, and I hope he one day, he might listen to this. His name was Dave Makings, David Makings, and he was the young men's advisor. And he recognized that I was troubled, um, and that I had these, um, questions about my life and my direction and how I felt about myself. And he would actually, um, um, spend more time with me than the others. He would sit down with me and talk and, uh, he'd sit down, uh, you know, he asked me about my, you know, I was embarking on a college, uh, program at the time. He was very interested in me about my, uh, uh, serving a mission, uh, interested about, uh, me in terms of my self-esteem and self-confidence. He was a wonderful, uh, individual. He was a Sales manager, actually, of a very successful company that I worked for. And he had an abundance of leadership skills, a great communicator, a wonderful leader. I think he became a bishop in another ward, but a wonderful man that was really interested in people and genuinely interested in actually building people, helping people feel good. And he took an interest in me. And he was just, you know, the first few conversations I find it very difficult to open up, but over time, over a few months of doing activities and him organizing the activities and the events in MIA and, you know, lots of new memories, lots of fun, you know, physical activities. And he was also very good at building, doing workshops as well. Jim Bennett did a lot of team building workshops with, with the youth instead of just doing like a regular program. It was very much about developing, what, what was later described as the SPEC program, if you remember that. So the SPEC program and the U program probably 15 years ago was spiritual, physical, educational, and community or citizenship. I'm trying to remember.

I think it's spiritual, physical, emotional, and I don't know.

What was it? I thought it was educational, but anyway, he, he, he, he kind of practiced that way, way back, you know, when I was, uh, growing up. So he was very good at Talking about how we develop our professional skills or educational knowledge and skills and having a desire to go get an education, you know, Ian, go get a degree, you can do this. He was the first person to say to me at that time, Ian, you can do this. You really can be what you want to be if you put your mind to it and you put your work in. You can pass college because I had so many doubts. So many second guesses and so many questions about myself and whether I could do something or not. And this inner voice that said, Ian, you can't do this. It's not who you are. And that was almost my entire experience before joining the church. But Dave Makins, he was different. He said, Ian, you can do this. You can be successful. What do you want to do? How are you going to get there? What's your strategy? And it got me thinking. And I said, Dave, I don't know if I could do this, this college thing, or, and the mission, I said, they want me to serve a mission. And he said, well, how do you feel about that? What's your relationship with God? So he got to the very core of who I was, my, you know, the very issues and problems that I was going through. He listened, he asked questions, and we talked about the church and the teaching and the doctrine. And by the way, he was the first person that actually taught me more than a song, which is very important, more than a lesson, that, that I was a child of God and, um, I was worth something and God actually cared for me and was interested in me and that my life had some purpose, some meaning. And Dave was the, the first person to have that conversation with me. And to remind me that I wasn't worthless, that I had value, that I could achieve great things, and I could do that in the gospel of Jesus Christ. I could go to college, I could be successful, I could get a good job, I could provide for myself, I could serve in the church. I could, um, he, he, he always said that, that when I'm stronger, that the Lord would require me to help others. He said, Ian, when you, you know, when you get into a position where you, uh, are on higher ground spiritually and you feel you've got your confidence and your self-esteem, what do you think you're— what did the Lord want you to do from there on? And I was like, uh, I said, help others. He said, exactly, that's what it's about. And he shared with me, uh, some of his challenges, uh, that he experienced as a youth and similar challenges in terms of confidence and self-esteem. So it was interesting that he'd gone through a similar experience as I did at that age, you know, 16, 17, 18 years old, etc. And I don't think I was the only one at that time that felt lost. I think, you know, youth, even today, of course, you know, there's— we all go through those experiences where it can be quite intense and you're wondering, you know, what are you going to do for college or what about your job and where's your life going? And I think a lot of young people even today feel that pressure, right? That, that stress of, you know, what, what are you doing with life? And your friends are going off doing great things and you're like, my goodness, uh, they seem to have that direction and purpose. I was very much had all these questions, but Dave Makings was amazing. He was, I, I, I, I just felt so blessed to have him in my life. And he, uh, is the epitome, Jim, of The members in the church, most of the members, there, there is a small minority and a small-minded minority in the church that spoil it for others. You know, the, the, um, they question, they doubt, and they, they, they focused at nitpicking on some of the negative. That's not been my experience mostly. Most my experience of the members serving in those different, you know, capacities, the members are just the most amazing people on the planet. They really are. They care for each other. I'm not saying they don't talk or gossip about each other. I don't know any organization, corporate, professional, charity, religious, that doesn't have that gossip element. You know, that's, uh, something that we have to deal with all the time in the church. We're no different than any other organization, right? We all talk about each other positively, negatively, right? That, that, that's just human nature and we have to, you know, have a handle on that. We have to have a, we have to learn from Christ and we have to learn from his teachings, um, whatever religion that we're in, to try to look for the good in people. And, and of course, this, this, uh, important to have those conversations and, and to openly express our concerns with, if we see an individual's behavior that's inappropriate, we have to address that. And we, we don't have to like everyone. Uh, we are required to love everyone. We don't have to like everyone. You know, we're commanded to love each other. We're not commanded to like each other, but we have to work together and we have to work together in the church for a common good. And if you look at your work, there are people at work that you probably don't like. You know, every organization, there are people that don't like each other, but they have to work together. You know, professionals. In the church, it's the same. You put together in these callings and you are required to work together for a common good, a common purpose, to help and bless the lives of your quorum or your auxiliary or or if you're a bishop, you know, the ward. And hopefully in that experience that you learn and grow and you see the qualities and attributes of the people that you're serving with. And so the, the church is at its greatest and continues to be at its greatest, uh, uh, through the extraordinary service and kindness and love of its members. And it's an incredibly powerful, in my opinion, the most important part of the church is the goodness that exists and continues to exist and grow in many ways within the, within the members of the church. And I am incredibly grateful, uh, that the church, uh, organization, the structure of the church, how it's organized, allowed me, uh, bless my life to, to be able to work with others in all kinds of capacities for the benefit of others. And in fact, uh, that service in Kibbutz that I devoted, like so many members do, actually came back at me and blessed my life. And that's the scripture, isn't it? That's the teaching that if you serve others, you, if you serve and you serve God, you're actually always in debt because you get the blessings, right? So you go out, you sacrifice, you serve, you put the time in. Do it through love, do it properly. Try not to do it through duty necessarily or guilt or, you know, a sense of duty or responsibility, although, you know, they're not necessarily bad things. The guilt thing is something that we, you know, another conversation about, you know, why we serve, but we should serve because we care with love and I believe most members do that. And when we do that, we work together as a team in that auxiliary and bless the lives of individuals. And just a quick story. I remember, I think I shared on an early podcast that when I decided to serve a mission, I went to my company boss and told him that I was gonna serve this Mormon mission for the Mormon Church. And he thought I was the most weirdest individual, very angry. They'd invested quite a bit of training in me and and I was being relatively successful in, in that, um, technical role. And then I, time came to, you know, I put my papers in and, um, got called to Scotland and then met with my, I think I had about 6 weeks before I left to go to Scotland. So I got my, I think I got my papers in November '86 or December '86 and January, January, end of January is when I was heading to the London NPC. So that was the time when I got the call to Scotland to go sit down with my boss and tell him, hey, you know, I'm not staying with the company, I'm going on this Mormon mission. He knew I was a member of the church but didn't show any interest in that. And then I told him the news and he fired me on the spot. As I mentioned earlier in the podcast, I was quite shocked. I remember going to my desk and I've seen it on the movies where you put all your stuff into a box and then you walk. I had a company car, so I had no company car, and I walked to the bus stop with this cardboard box with my stuff in. I was, I felt absolutely numb. Uh, but anyway, that was the situation. But what happened, I had this 2 months, this 6 weeks or, or so, uh, before I went to Scotland and the bishop there, Bishop Wainwright, amazing, uh, leader, and Doris Carlton, who's the, uh, lady, uh, that, uh, uh, is the family member who brought, who allowed me to live with them while I, um, was after I was thrown out from my home and joined the church. And Doris was wonderful, and Colin, wonderful people who allowed me to stay with their family for a while. And then, so this time I had before I went to Scotland, the Bishop Wainwright said, well, look, we need you to work with, um, we'd like you to work with the, um, Relief Society president, who was Doris. So I knew Doris very well. And then we, the job was to, drive Doris to Sheffield, which is another stake, and it was the Bishop's Storehouse. And we were, there's like a, like a mini supermarket underneath the foundations of that building in Sheffield. And we would push it like a, a, a, a trolley as they call it in UK, a, a shopping cart round that supermarket kind of thing. And we would then collect food for members in the ward, in, in the ward that I was in at the time in the Huddersfield stake. And we would collect all that food for about, about 20 families, Jim. And these are families who were struggling financially, who were on welfare, who the bishop had identified as being in need. And I worked for 6 weeks before I came to Scotland with Doris. And we, it was a, it was like a weekly thing and I did the driving and I put the stuff into the cart and then we would deliver parcels of food. Those members who were in need. And it was amazing to be able to see their faces when we knocked on the door and say, hey, here, we've got you some, some, uh, you know, provisions. So I've got you some food. And, uh, you know, these, these weren't— these were fairly big boxes. There was sometimes 2 or 3 boxes because they were families. And so I did that for 6 weeks and, uh, did it under the, uh, organization of Doris, who was very organized, way more organized than I was. And that's what we did. And again, another, um, incredible aspect of love and kindness, leadership from Bishop Wainwright, to be able to organize that, put that food together, take it to the families who didn't have much. And to see their faces and, um, emotional, in tears, they couldn't believe it., you know, when they receive that. So these are— these— and this— we could go on forever. The podcast is not long enough, frankly. But the, the, the, uh, list of qualities and attributes and blessings that the church, uh, through its organization and through its members, that it continues to, uh, provide and deliver to its members is just extraordinary. And I, I could talk all day, frankly, about had so many wonderful experiences like that. And I've shared a couple of insights. And just in kind of wrapping up my thoughts here at this stage in that conversation, these experiences, Jim, for me, who has gone through all that personal, emotional changes, the interest from the leaders, the support from the leaders, the belief in me that I could be something that I, you know, more than I thought I was of myself. And then to provide it's not enough, I think, just to have the word, the conversation, someone sitting in front of you and said, hey, you can do these things. You have to do it. You have to get up, get your ass off, you know, the seat, right? Uh, get out there and serve. And in that service— and this is the key, the thing that's, that saved me, changed me— in that acting on the advice and counsel that I got Ian, you can do it. Now go do it. Go do— these are the things that you need to do to change how you feel about yourself and to have some purpose and meaning in life. Here's, you know, you do it through service. You go help others. And you don't have to wait to be saved to go save someone else. The saving of someone else is what actually saves you. And that's what happened to me. So I'm not anywhere near healed at this stage, you know, with, um, you know, 17, 18 years old. Um, but all those, uh, service opportunities I had to help others actually was the thing that healed me, that changed me, that transformed me, that gave me purpose and meaning, gave me self-esteem, gave me some confidence. I always thought, wow, I can do this. I can actually help someone. I didn't think I could help anyone. I couldn't even help myself in, in, in certain areas., but, and then people are like, Ian, thank you. And I'm like, wow, I can actually, I can do this. And when you start to learn that you can do it yourself without, you know, someone can say they believe in you and you could do it. That's one thing that's important. But when you see it and you experience it yourself that you can actually achieve certain things and help others and, um, be successful, uh, in helping others, and you see how that transforms their lives and how grateful they are. It was, it was, there were times I cried. I, you know, I'd be in bed at night, I'd pray, and I'd cry, and I'd open my heart, and I would be so grateful. And I felt the spirit, and I believe the spirit, and I still feel that same spirit today, is, you know, when I serve and give of others. That's a universal spirit. I don't think that's necessarily unique to the church, but that's the thing, Jim, that transformed me, that You know, the church was the vehicle, the structure, the organization. The members and commitment, devotion, um, provided the, um, the leadership, the support, the direction, the experience for someone like me. And then the doing bit, the service bit, was the thing that, um, had an extraordinary impact on me and the spirituality that came from that. And there— and then it affects how you feel about yourself, what you think about yourself, and you start to feel you've got worth and value. And then you realize that you're a child of God, that you've got, you've got this, um, value, this purpose. And so the church does that, all of that, that I've tried to, uh, communicate. And, um, it's difficult for me to articulate, communicate these things because they're very, you know, they're quite emotional for me and, and it's, difficult for me to describe that in words. You have to experience it yourself, and I know you have, but I would say that is one, one area of, of, in my opinion, the most significant area that the church does, continues to do. And I'm so, so grateful for all the members in the church, past and present, who have had an extraordinary, um, impact on my life. I haven't forgotten them. I hope they haven't forgotten me. I certainly haven't forgotten them. And these impressions, these spiritual, spiritual experiences leave this indelible, um, eternal, not just in this life, but eternal impression upon our very souls. And I will never forget these things. I don't wanna forget them. I will always remember them. I remember them often. And, and, um, they have transformed my life. So I, You know, these are, um, these are the extraordinary blessings that the church, uh, brings into, uh, people's lives. And I just want our listeners to, um, I know they know that already, but I just want to, you know, even though I'm out the church, I cannot and will not, uh, ever forget or let go of those experiences. It's who I am. So I want to be, and it shaped the very core of my, of my being and my soul.

I, I think those are great last words here for this podcast. I think that sums it up nicely. I agree with everything you said. I really appreciate all of those stories. And I, I, uh, I'm just so grateful that we get a chance to talk about this kind of thing. I, I just think it's really important that we step back every once in a while and recognize why it is we're doing this, why it is we talk about the Church, why it is that we're so focused on this. It's because we love this Church. It's because this Church has blessed our lives. This Church is a force for good. And so I'm very grateful to hear those stories and to, to share that with you. And I'm very grateful to everybody who takes the time to listen to us every week, to hear these stories, because it helps us more than you know. The feedback that we get from you, uh, just, it just means more to us than, than you know. I don't know how to describe it, but I'm so grateful for it. So with that, Ian, do you have any, any other parting or summation words?

I don't, I don't. And I also want to say, I want to thank you, and I just really appreciate this conversation, and I hope to have many more conversations like this as well, because as I said earlier, you could, with so many great things, right, that the church does, and we forget that it's got all these challenges and problems, but it does so many great things, and I'm so grateful. And I want the church to improve. I don't want it to go away, or the things I described, I want it to grow. I want all of what I've described to grow and expand and continue. I know you can get that in other churches, and I get that. So I want the church to thrive in a very positive, in a very inclusive, in a very constructive way. So I'm very, very grateful to you, Jim Bennett, for having these conversations. As I said, we've got a long, long list of wonderful experiences of the church. I'm grateful to our listeners. We appreciate you all, all you out there listening to us and being patient with us. Thank you. And we are excited to share these experiences with you, and we look forward to seeing you or being with you next week, uh, from Jim and I on Inside Out. Thank you for joining us. Um, God bless, love to you all. Thank you, Jim.

Thank you, Ian.