A Musical Conversation with James Burnham

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the podcast that takes a pragmatic look at the Mormon Church and faith. We consider the strengths and weaknesses of the church. We acknowledge all the greatness and the good that the church does. And also, along with our guests, we, we look at problems and issues within the church and we discuss where we think we, the church, can improve and get better. And we all want the church to improve and get better so everyone can have a good experience. As always, I'm here with my partner, the mysterious Mr. Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim, how are you?

I'm mysterious. That's a good one. I like that one. I'm probably the least mysterious person in the world.

Every podcast we come up with that haircuts mysterious.

Yeah, well, this, it's not really a haircut, it's more of a hair— hope glad people can't see it.

Oh, you wear a great head of hair. Well, I wish I could do that.

Well, thank you very much.

And, and each week, each podcast, uh, we have a different word to describe each other. Last week it was indescribable.

Indescribable.

Indescribable. And so anyway, today we have another very special guest, unique. And so it's my pleasure to introduce to all the listeners, Mr. James Burnham. James, how are you?

I'm doing well, and I'm so excited to be on here with you guys. I think this is a great opportunity to just talk about things that I think will bring value. So thank you for having me.

Oh, it's just wonderful. I'm so excited too. I mean, I think nowadays, like Christmas, How many sleeps before we have James Bennett on the podcast? So I'm really excited. And today, James and Jim, we're gonna have, uh, we're not going to do our normal introduction because, uh, the reason why is that James, uh, here, he plays the guitar and he sings. I've heard him, I think he's awesome. And so I've asked James if he will sing one of his songs for the intro, and perhaps at the end of the podcast he could play and sing another song, uh, to lead us out of the podcast. So James, what are you gonna sing for us today, and why is— yeah, he chose the song that he did.

Well, you know, excuse me, my— I got a frog in my throat. I'm getting nervous about singing to an audience that I don't know. No, excuse me. So this is a song that I wrote in the year 2000 at Christmas time. Um, it was kind of a juncture in my life. I struggled with my standing in the Mormon Church and how to how to be me. And this was a song that was a reflection of that. I was actually suicidal at the time that I wrote it. I was ready to kill myself. I had a plan. And I decided to get— reach out and get some help before I killed myself. And I'm so grateful that I did. But this song is a reflection of that time. And every year at Christmas time, I think about how I was feeling when I wrote this song and the things that were in my head. And I think about where I am now. And, you know, the irony is with, with this, and I think that this will resonate with people in any organization. I don't like to just pick on Mormon Church because I think some people get myopically fixed on the problems and not recognizing that these are human problems, not religious problems. And one of the issues that, that I felt was just I couldn't be myself. I couldn't, I couldn't see a path forward that was on the timeline that I had been given that I felt I had to achieve. And I wrote this lyric, um, when you were young, you set big goals and they sounded great. Now you're old and with none of them done, it's a bit too late. And it's ironic to me because as I reflect each year on it, I'm now 54. And this year at Christmas, my future has so many opportunities and so many things that I have yet to do. And at 30, I thought I was done because of the mental state I was in, the trauma that I was in. So that's this song. And hopefully it doesn't resonate with you too much, but I think there might be a piece of it that does for some people. And the song is called Do They Reach the Sky. I don't know how this will work because I don't have a real sound system set up here, but let me know. I guess we'll find out.

All right, there he goes.

How's that sound? Can you hear it?

Yeah, I can hear it just fine.

Stare in the mirror and the face that appears makes you feel real low. Day has begun, there's a lot to be done. Gonna take it slow. Smile on the job and affirm and shake people. Say you're great. Sit home alone, watching the phone until it gets really late. When you say our prayers, do they reach the sky? Sky? Or do they just sink to the ground? When you're lying in bed, do you dream about life? Does dreaming about life just bring you down? Walk out the door to see a brand new show. You buy the big popcorn, eat it or no. Then you go home and rent a video. Oh, there's a knock at the door. You stare way high. You know your rent is late. Lamont says one more In your years, you'll be on the street. When you say our prayers, do they reach the sky? Do they just sink to the ground? When you're lying in bed, do you dream about life? Dreaming about life just bring you down. When you were young, you set big goals and they sounded great. Now you are old and with none of them done, it's a bit too late. You talk of the past, sounds like a blast, but where's your future gone? You forgot who you are, chasing for stars, now you come undone. When you say our prayers, do they reach the sky, or do they just to the ground.

That's it. Hey, thank you, thank you.

Lovely song, James.

That was amazing.

You know, I, I wrote a song, um, around that same time. Yeah, I mean, I— it feels an awful lot like that song. A friend of mine had, had committed suicide.

Yeah.

And, and I wrote this song about her. And the whole thing about when, when you say your prayers, do they reach the sky or do they just sink to the ground? I had a lyric that was almost identical to that.

Isn't that fascinating?

It was. I'm trying, I'm trying to, I'm saying I'm singing it in my head. I get to it.

Just sing it out loud, man. Let's hear it.

Can a prayer make heaven listen? 'Can we make a God agree?' 'Why does God respond to others but enjoys ignoring me?' Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I know exactly what that feels like. I don't think I was suicidal at the time, but there was certainly a lot of depression there. And that whole idea of when you pray, is anybody paying attention? Is anybody listening to you? I thought that that was a very powerful song, had a very powerful just a very powerful message to it. How did you get from there to where you are now?

Well, you know, it was a process, right? Obviously, I got help right then. And so that was my first— was my first foray into therapy, but my first one with real intent, like, I need help. I want to kill myself. And that's not really a place to live. And I realized that I was struggling deeply with understanding, um, what it is I wanted to do and what I felt I needed to do to be accepted. And I couldn't differentiate the two. I could not find my voice within my desire to please those around me because I had such low self-worth. And, uh, and that had started— I mean, honestly, we— this takes me back to the core issue, which took me years to get to. It took me actually 47 years to get to the place where I understood the core issue that was driving my depression, my struggles, my sense of low self-worth. And that was that I was abused, uh, violently, um, from the age of 4 to 8 by a young man that My parents took you into the home. He, he was, uh, quite a monster. And, uh, I, I didn't remember those things until I'd done years of therapy and got to a point where I could forgive myself for the behaviors that I, I despised and learn to love myself. And in that space, once I got there, my memories just came. I was sitting in Sacramento in church and, uh, I was sitting there and that song, Mormons— not everyone will know it, but it's an old song. It says, we are all enlisted till the conflict is over, happy are we, happy are we. And the ward was singing that. And I was at this point not interested in being a Mormon, but I was there to support my ex at the time and my kids, and I was happy to do that. But that song came on and I had this image of my mother driving our 15-passenger van full of kids to church. And she was singing, looking back over her shoulder at us. And I was, in my memory, I was sitting right in the middle seat behind the two passenger seats at the front, watching my mom sing and look at us talking about this, like this unifying song of we are all enlisted till the conflict is over, happy are we. And my thought, my feeling from that image that came to my mind was I'm not a part of this team.

I don't belong here.

And I thought in that moment, because I'd had so much therapy, why would a 4-year-old boy or a 5-year-old boy, whatever that age— I was a little kid in that, in that memory— why would I think that I'm not part of that, that I'm outside of the love and the central kind of aspects of my family? What would make me think that? And asking that question opened the floodgates of my memories, and I just saw everything come, all the abuse, all the things that this guy had done. I literally sprinted out of the chapel and hid. My car was locked. I didn't have the keys. My wife had the keys, and I hid behind my, my car, and I wept in the parking lot, overcome by what I was remembering and thinking, this cannot be true. This cannot be my story. And that's, that's when I got my memories. And it was like, it was an interesting thing. It's like, you know, when you look through a photo album and you're looking through old photos and you see a photo and a memory comes to you and you've never forgotten that, you just have not looked at it within your brain in a long time. And that's what it was like. It was like my brain had been unable to look at this space of memories until I was able to be okay with receiving them. And, uh, it was a, it was a big deal, big, big deal for me to process that. But that was, uh, that was the song. The evolution of it I didn't fully understand until kind of really once getting these core memories, I was able to go back into the core of who I am, what I am, how I'm doing, and really begin to differentiate my, my need to follow my heart and my belief and my understanding of God versus the expectations that had been placed upon me by outside people that were doing their best to help me. And finding my own path was difficult.

Why? That really resonates with me.

Yeah.

In my, in my own personal faith journey, I, as we're talking, I pulled up this quote from C.S. Lewis.

I love him.

That, that I've thought about a number of times. And this was, this was something he wrote in his book, A Grief Observed, right after his wife had died and probably the darkest time in his life. And he said, not that I am, I think, in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about him. The conclusion I dread is not, so there's no God after all, but So this is what God is really like. Deceive yourself no longer. And, you know, throughout my life, the struggles that I've had with my faith have not necessarily been, geez, is there a God? Isn't there a God? Or any of that. It's, it's been what you're talking about, or at least what it sounds like you're talking about. Am I on the team? Do I count?

Yeah.

Does God, you know, The lyric that I quoted to you, "Why does God respond to others but enjoys ignoring me? What if God is a jerk?" You know, I actually raised that question as a gospel doctrine teacher, and one of the guys in the class who responded to me was Patrick Kearon, who is now the newest member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He was in our ward about 5 years. But we had a really lovely discussion about that. I think that that is something that, that is an idea that we don't discuss openly in church at all. You know, the hymn you quoted, we are all enlisted. Happy are we, happy are we. We're in these classes and we have to be happy.

Yeah, we're not.

I'm struggling and I'm really wondering if God loves me.

Yeah.

I never doubted that God exists, but I have spent a great deal of time doubting whether or not God gives a rip about me. Yeah. And those are not discussions that Sunday school and priesthood meetings or talks that we hear in sacrament meeting. That's just not a topic that's openly addressed. Yeah. Is that your— Ian, is that your experience too?

This podcast resonates with me so strongly on so many levels. You know, self-esteem, self-worth, or not having that growing up and I, I didn't grow up in the church, as you know. I joined when I was 16, but felt worthless, useless, actually. Perhaps didn't come as close to James in terms of ending my life, but I did think about it a few times. And just struggling with the self-doubt and, you know, who am I and what's my place? And, and, you know, Is there anything more to life than what I'm going through at that particular time? And then to the other point, when you go to church, you're supposed to feel happy and good. And you said something really interesting, James, at the very beginning, that a lot of these challenges are not necessarily religious-associated challenges. They can be, but they're human problems. That really hit me because problems I was experiencing investing in the church, trying the church, being in the church, and then having to be happy all the time and positive and going into leadership positions very quickly, which is not something I wanted. And you have to be happy and successful and confident and almost problemless, right? I mean, you know, they look for leaders without problems or issues. That's part of the interview process, et cetera. You know, people who are stable, who don't have any, you know, history of challenges or issues. I don't think anyone like that exists, frankly. But, um, you're supposed to feel happy and you're not. You're dealing with these demons, uh, that plague us, uh, on a very personal level. So that's why this, this podcast, uh, this conversation rather, is really connecting with me on a very, on a very personal level. Um, we're all different, we have different experiences, but I, I think the church doesn't really understand this part of, um, of the, uh, and I think expects so much. And you just have to plow on and continue. And regardless, we've got problems. If you've got problems, you see you as a problem, you become a project, and you don't get called, or you get released, or whatever. And there's a long memory in the church. You can't really— well, I, I felt I couldn't really talk to any of that, my, my challenges. So, uh, yeah. I just don't think they talk about it or even understand it. So yeah, this is why this conversation is, for me, it's a very— it connects with me on so many levels.

Well, so James, can you give us sort of a— I mean, we opened with your song. Yeah. Can you give us a little more sense of just your background and sort of your relationship with the church, where you are now? And all that sort of thing?

Yeah, I no longer consider myself a Mormon in any way. Although the tenets that I was taught, the basic values, I would say the values that I was taught stay firm. The process through which I live the values is different than the church. And I won't associate myself with a group of people that refuse my ability to serve in my capacity if I don't follow their process. Even though I have the same value. Because I see that as, uh, Pharisees of old, and I'm not going to participate in that space. And I think it's wonderful that great people do, but I'm incapable of it because of what happened to me. I, I need something that affirms me more than the church affirms me as an individual. And so it's not a space that I go to anymore for any affirmation.

Do you have— is there a space that you go to outside?

Yeah, I feel very spiritual. I don't associate with organized religion anymore. So I work as a business coach. I work— I'm an emotional intelligence expert. And I think our emotions are our first sensory system that we have as a culture suppressed to no end to try to keep people, you know, in survival mode. And I honestly, I have come, I've read so much about human performance and how to get into the space of flow state and how to do your best all the time. And I read all these things and I had a very, very, as, as Ian has suggested, from my parents, when we talked about before, the, the upbringing that I had was full of learning. My parents were very good about teaching us. So I'm not a Mormon that grew up not knowing the doctrine. I knew the doctrine. I read the scriptures every day. I've read the Book of Mormon many times. I've read the Bible many times, you know, front, back. I've read all kinds of stuff. And so I was searching and reading and learning and having it put in context of my parents based on their understanding. And it taught me some great values. But it also exposed me, particularly because I'll give you some examples. When I was, when I was 4, the abuse started with this man that was attacking me. And I remember, and he had costed some of my other family too. Me and my two sisters were sitting on, my sisters were sitting on the couch with my mother. I was sitting on the floor at her feet. My mother's a really great storyteller. And so she's talking to us about virtue and the importance of virtue. So you think this is 1974, 1975. And the concept of virtue at the time, what was being taught was this: if a man is holding a knife to your throat and is trying to molest you, lean into the knife. It is better that you die than lose your virtue. And that's the story that she told my sisters. And I remember an electric shock running up my spine because I knew— I didn't know what virtue is, but she had explained it so that I understood. And I knew that I was not virtuous. Based on what I understood, because I didn't— I didn't— I took all the blame for everything that happens, right? And I said to my mom, Mom, what if it happens to a boy? What if a boy is being held by knife? And ironically, I was held by knife when I was attacked the first time. And, uh, and she says, it doesn't happen to boys, and looks at my sisters and they kind of laugh. And I was so compelled, I had to hear the words because I already knew there's a difference in how women are treated and how men are treated in the church. So I'm like, well, what if it happened to a boy? And she says, lean into the knife. And I became suicidal at that moment. I had been utterly incapable. I fought this guy every time he would beat me unconscious. And I was incapable at at the age— he was 16, I was 4, right? There's no way I could overpower this guy, and I couldn't even lean into the knife. And so I became somebody that I felt was beyond hope, and I had no value, and I struggled to find where I stood. And I believed in the church, I felt it was right, I just believed I was not a part of it. I used to have a nightmare where my sisters would be taken up in the twinkling of an eye in the last days And then people would be shooting up around me. The earth is on fire and the flames are coming and I'm not being sent up. I'm sitting at a bus stop. And then my sister, who is really a good person, starts going up and I grab her ankles and I'm being taken up into heaven, hanging on her ankles and thinking, will I be able to stand when we get to wherever we're getting? Like, am I going to be allowed? Because if I let go now, I'm dead. Like, this was kind of the issues that I came up with in my head. And then I found out about baptism at the age of 5, and baptism washes away all your sins. And I became so excited about the prospect of being washed clean and getting to start over. So I was a crazy kid. So I said to my friend when I found out, I was like, dude, he was 2 years older than me. I said, we got one year to do everything we possibly can before you get baptized. So let's go do it. And we got into a lot of trouble. Lots of trouble, mischievous, dumb things, right? And then I went to my baptism interview with my bishop, and he sat me down and he says, "I'm going to ask you a series of questions and you answer them honestly, and then you'll be baptized and you'll be washed clean. But if you lie to me in this interview, your baptism will not work." So he goes through, he asks me all these questions, I'm fine answering them. And then he gets to the law of chastity and he asked me if I live that. I don't even know what that means. And I asked him, And he tells me, and I know that I have not lived it, and I lie because I know that if I tell the truth, this man will kill me. I know it. And so I lie. And I know that my baptism will not work and I will never, ever enter the kingdom of God. And that was the starting point of my religion for me. And so I felt like I was somebody that was never going to be accepted by God, but I sure was going to help everybody else get there. And hopefully, because I heard the stories of those young men in the, you know, that hauled the pioneers across a frozen river and they died and they got their calling and election made sure. And I was just looking for an opportunity where I could give my life and get my calling and election made sure, because clearly there was no other way that I was going to get into heaven other than some magnificent feat. That was how I lived most of my life in the Mormon Church. And it was a tough place to be. And it left me very disenfranchised and left me feeling like an outsider, which I think is a valuable thing, honestly, to feel like an outsider and know what that is, gives you the power to have empathy for others that are in that same situation as you in any aspect. It doesn't have to be within the Mormon Church. It can be while you're hanging out at work and you see that person sitting at a table by themselves eating and they're a new hire. And you can feel some empathy for them. Because to feel like an outsider is a lonely place. We're pack animals, we're meant to be together. But that's my experience as a Mormon, was always feeling like I was outside of the faith.

I think what's striking as I listen to you, James, what's striking to me, uh, just hits me so hard listening to that, is that you had these awful experiences happen to you. And I'm so sorry you had to endure that. And then you had this teaching that baptism would wash away your sins and that there would be some in there, some semblance of hope that you would find peace and, uh, closure or completeness in being baptized that would wash away your sins. And then you went through the interpro— interview process and learned that, um, if you lied, that you wouldn't enjoy the full experience and blessings of the ordinance of baptism. And at that point, at that moment, if I understand it correctly, or experience correctly, that was taken away from you. This hope that you had, you'll think differently or feel differently about yourself, your self-worth and self-esteem that you long for and yearn for, to feel differently, feel better, that was taken from you in an instant within the interview. And, you know, if you tell the truth, you're damned. If you lie, you're damned. Yeah, and it, you know, you went for the better option, but even that took away this, this hope, and that spiraled you into, into these, you know, this very difficult period in life. And I'm just so sorry that you, you went through that experience. Um, did things get better for you, James, over the years? I, I know your family, you know, I know your mum and dad. I worked with your dad. I I— he reported to me on the state presidency on temple-related activities and across the state, because, you know, um, and your brother was also the former state president before I was called into the state presidency. You come from an extraordinary family of incredible devotion and commitment to the church. Um, did things improve in any way? Uh, you know, this individual was in your home. They They left at some point. They were there for a few years and then they, and you sadly went through all that awful experience. What happened when it ended and they left? And then did things improve and get better over the years?

Well, you know, the thing is, and I think this is the case with anything bad that, well, not anything, but in my case at least, my bad was a small portion of my life. This was a very, very bad thing that happened to me, but I was surrounded very fortunately by parents who loved me and siblings that I love and admire, all of them. And so I had wonderful relationships with them. I had great mentors, I had great teachers, I, I had so many things in my life that I think are valuable. The problem with something like this is it becomes hidden when you're abused as a child, particularly young, like when you lose your capacity to look at it because you can't make sense of it. You have behaviors and things that you do that you don't understand because you're reacting to an event that you no longer remember, and you get triggered and you become violent and angry and lash out and out of control. And so I was a very problematic kid in school. I was in remedial classes until middle school and, you know, struggled. Mightily with behavior, impulse control, all kinds of things due to this. I know that now. I, and nobody knew that back then. So what happens is you just get punished more. But the reality was, is the good in my life far outweighs the bad. But the bad was so significant and so unattainable for me to look at, it became the anchor in my life that kept me from holding the good. I couldn't hold the good until I dealt with the bad and I didn't even know how to deal with it cuz I couldn't remember that it was there. So yeah, my life was great in many ways and in many ways I would live in this pendulum of, I'd either be like kind of a manic process where I'd be like, everything's great, I love everything, da da da. And then I just, something would turn for me and I'd fall into this deep, just like despair of who am I? I'm so worthless.

I'm.

And I couldn't understand where it came from. And so it was problematic for my mental health for sure. But overall, you know, my life was really good. I had many opportunities. I was afforded all sorts of things that I think most people don't get. And I was generally a happy person. If you met me, you wouldn't have thought I was depressed. I was not an Eeyore type guy. I was somebody that you met, you thought was great and happy and doing well, but I was hiding it. Yeah. Does that answer your question? Yes, sir. Thank you.

So did you serve a mission?

I did. Yeah. I went to Tokyo North. Loved my mission. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So because a lot of those sort of feelings of depression and worthlessness for me were amplified on my mission.

Yeah.

That that's sort of the moment where all of a sudden it's you and God and you're right there directly spending those 2 years directly serving God. And for me, that's when all the inadequacy just came crumbling down on my head. It's like, who do I think I am and who does God think I am? And I'm worthless. You know, again, I'm, I'm not I did not experience the kind of horrific abuse that you experienced, so I'm not trying to, to equate the experience, but I'm trying to find some kind of— some connections, some relative connection. Yeah. And for me, the church in many ways sort of exacerbated that experience.

Yeah.

Is that what you found as well, or—

I think for sure the church exacerbates that experience.

Absolutely.

Because so much of what they do, it's checklist-based, right? If you don't match the checklist, you are not worthy. You are not, you know, because it's not just by grace alone that we are saved. It's by grace and works. And Mormons place far more value on works than grace. And it should be the other. I believe you have to work to change. There's no amount of work that you can do that will cover the, what you need for grace. And, and I, I feel like, uh, the checklists, the Pharisee kind of mentality makes it impossible. And then we shame those that aren't following the checklist for whatever reason, and it becomes very problematic. But for me, you know, on my mission, I had a really wonderful experience that stuck with me my whole life. I was teaching a Buddhist monk, really, really brilliant. Just, you could see his countenance shine. This was a happy man. And he would be listening to our discussions, which in Japan, you know, you don't get through a lot of discussions with people. People are just like, "Get out of here," you know. The average at my time was half a baptism per person, per missionary. So, you know, a lot of guys went home without a baptism. And I'm teaching this guy and he's asking good questions. He understands the doctrine. He's engaged. And then I would ask him if he wanted to be baptized. And he'd laugh and he'd say, "Oh no, no." But he wasn't in any way mocking me. He wasn't being condescending to my ideas. He was just laughing kind of joyfully, like, "Oh, I'm glad you want to invite me, but no, this is not my path. This is your path. It's a good path for you. And I can see that it's working for you. Keep going." And I was so honestly impressed with his capacity to listen to my belief that I had the one and only true way of being happy and getting to God. And it did not impact his own personal stance at all. And he could actually even join me in my attempt to save him and be appreciative, even though he had no interest. And I, I decided I want to be like that man. I would like to be able to sit across from somebody that does not believe as I believe and see the value in it for them, respect them and respect what they're doing, and still choose another path for myself. And that became kind of a goal for me. So I guess I got converted to Buddhism on my mission.

Well, so at what point did you decide, okay, The church is no— is, is not my path.

So the first decision was in 2000 when I wrote this song. I, I was married at the time. I didn't have any children. I had just got out of grad school. By all appearances, my, my ex was out of grad school, I was out of grad school. We had this great life. Um, people would have thought that everything was perfect for me, and I was in deep despair. And, uh, And so I left the church at that point because I just did not feel— I hadn't felt for years, but I just finally got to the place where, like, this is not a place for me. This is not my group. I don't fit in here. I never have. Still hadn't unearthed my abuse yet to understand the full spectrum of why that impacted me, but I knew I didn't feel like I belonged, you know. And, uh, so I tried to leave, but my spouse cried for like every day for like 3 months. And I just was like, wow, I like Mormons. They're nice people. You know, I don't have a bunch of beef with them, so I'll just keep going. And so I buckled down, I did it again. And then, um, in the process of trying to clean up my stuff, I had some serious issues and things that I had done wrong, and I wanted to clean it up so that my wife could choose to be with the man that I am not the man that I was pretending to be. And that process was difficult. We went about 2 and a half years. And at the end of the 2 and a half years, she still would not acknowledge the fact that I had no interest in coming back to the church because I was done at that point. I actually was done in 2013. The straw that really, really crushed me was I saw— I have a bunch of Black friends, and they sent me the release of the First Presidency's dissertation on why Blacks had not received the priesthood. And without actually saying it in the original document, they basically say, "Brigham Young was racist, and he took the priesthood away." And it was signed. And if you go now, it's not even there. They have removed it. The only way I find it is references in the Salt Lake Tribune to that original article, which is no longer posted. They have a second article that they have posted that has replaced it. Is far more clear. And, but that argument, when I, and previous to that, I think Ian, you were in the state presidency, but just before, I was in France doing my MBA at the time when this came out. And before that, they had made the bishops read from the pulpit an announcement to the effect that we can no longer talk about this generation being the chosen generation saved for this last dispensation of times to bring forth, you know, coming of Christ type thing. Like, that's too much. That's not what we should say to these kids, and please stop it. It's just, you know, kind of a tradition. And that was read from the pulpit, which I thought was valuable for them to read. And yet they wouldn't read this release of all of the things that had been said and done that were wrong towards Black people in the church, about them being an inferior group in pre-existence. All of these arguments that have been created by leaders of the church, the They would not— they silently released it. They didn't announce it from the pulpits. And to me, as someone who was trying to repent and go through the repentance process, I thought, how can they expect me to be held to a standard of owning my sins when they won't own their own? I can't be a part of this organization. And that was it for me. I just was like, no, they're more interested in the sanctity of the organization and preserving a brand than they are in preserving the sanctity of the individuals that are part of it. That's how I viewed it. And that broke me entirely. There was no chance of me coming back after 2013. And then it took me another 4 years to finally pull the trigger and say I was done. And in doing that, I lost my marriage.

And, and James, by the way, how many people I know and have met who identify, uh, their concerns and issues with that essay that came out on Blacks in the Peace? You and I talked about this, and I think I shared with you that was a major, uh, impact on me, significant impact, the beginning of my, uh, disavowing the church. I'll use that word. Yeah.

Yeah.

So at that time, so, so just to connect some of the pieces here, uh, you, you, you had these, um, concerns, issues on a private level at, in around about 2000. You were married, you tried to make it work for 2 and a half years or so. Um, you have a family, you have children, and, and, uh, and so you, you were raising a family, and so you, you were active again. Help me just connect the pieces there. You were you know, you had a family, you were married, you had these personal, uh, things that you were trying to, uh, reconcile with or struggle with, and you hadn't yet made that connection with those— that period of time when you were growing up, you know, that abuse that you experienced. And that came later, I think, if I'm correct.

Yeah, that, that came in 20— 2018, I got my memories back.

2018. So there was a significant moment that, that kind of all that flooded back, but you were struggling for reasons that you might not have fully understood at that time, you know, through the marriage and the family, serving in the church in some capacity, read the essay, you know, The Blackness of the Priesthood, um, came to similar conclusions that I did, and I'm sure many others did, in terms of the church not owning its own sins. That really connects with me. And then from 2013, um, so at 2013 then, was that that the relationship didn't— it failed, it didn't continue. And then between 2013 and onwards, you were on your own, I guess, trying to find your own way, your own path. And then at some point in 2018, you had this, um, uh, realization of where some of the issues came from. Have I, have I kind of mapped that incorrectly, or—

Yeah, no, that's, that's pretty accurate.

Yeah.

So in 2013, I was done. But now I had to figure out what I wanted to do was figure out a way to disengage from the church with grace. Because I have family members that I love and respect and profoundly think are incredible people. And they're deep, devout members of the Mormon Church. And I don't want them to think that I want, I want to disparage what they believe because it works for them. They're good. That you meet them, they're kind, they're helpful, they're everything I would want to be, and they're using the tenets of the church that I was raised in to govern their lives. So I don't want to become the person badmouthing something that's not working for me, right? And so I was trying to figure out how do I step away from this without becoming the angry hater that is bashing all of what it's about, because I've been a part of many organizations in my life. And every organization is riddled with human defects that, you know, place cultural expectations upon that group that are out of line. And you can choose to follow them or not, to the extent that you might get booted out of that group if you don't follow it enough. And I was at the point in the Mormon Church that I was like, I can't be a part of this. I have too many things that are different than what you want, and I can't follow them because they hurt me as a person. You know, and it wasn't a bad thing about the church, but I had to sort that out. I had some anger. I had, you know, I think it's a natural process, a grieving process to go through the loss of a religious belief. And while I never felt like I was part of the benefits of that belief, I believed it. I just believed I was going to be in hell.

Listen to you. I got a question. As you know, I know members of your family. They're incredibly devout, committed, faithful members. Your father has been a stake president. Your brother's been a stake president in our stake here. Your father served on a temple presidency, couple of temple presidencies. Your brother's just been called to be a mission president.

You got a family relative who is sister Uh, my sister's husband has been indicted. Well, what if he's, uh, one of the 70? He's going to speak actually next week in a conference.

And yet your auntie is Sister, uh, part of the CAP.

She was a young woman's general president of the church in the '80s, and then my other aunt was a counselor in the general presidency, I believe, in the '90s.

So you've got this extraordinary, uh, devoted members of the family, how did they react or respond when you decided that the church, the path of the church, you know, that path wasn't for you? What, what, what did they say? What was their reaction?

You know, I think it— the best way to describe it, I think it was a gut punch to them. You know, the initial response was shock, sadness, surprise, and we had to calibrate our conversations with each other. I had an experience where I came— I was no longer living with my wife, and she had gone to Hawaii for a vacation, and I was hanging with my kids. And, you know, I heard my mom and dad talking to me, and they're telling me that I'm lost and that I need to come back and saying all these things about where I'm at. And I'm, you know, I'm having a conversation with my father and he's asking me what I believe, what I— why I don't believe. And I said, you know, Dad, I don't think I want to talk about what I don't believe because that's not a fruitful conversation. Why don't we talk about what we both believe? Because I think that that is largely where we can have a good conversation. And there's a lot to talk about because I'm your boy, right? And, uh, he was insistent. On trying to ferret out what I didn't believe and, and making fun of my stance, calling me a fool. And you literally calling me a fool. And I warned him, I said 3 times, I said, Dad, you do not get to disrespect my belief system. I am doing everything in my power to, to extricate myself from this situation, but, and honor you and your belief system because I think it works for you and I value it and I think it's made you a great man. And I want you to understand that I recognize that and I'm not throwing that away, but this is not for me. And he wouldn't acknowledge it. And finally, I, after the third time, I said, I'm going to throw you out of my house if you don't do this. Like, you need to understand how my family is. I don't ever swear in my house, right? And my dad does it again. And I stood up, I walked to the front door of my house, And I said, get the F outta my house. But I said the word, I was like, get the F outta my, my mom and dad, like the shock of it. But I think they realized at that point, wow, they can't do that. And then I had another conversation because every time my kids would come on my days, I'd go visit, say my aunt, my Aunt Artie and I are very close and I would go and visit her and take my kids and she would always talk to them about how, oh, 'You know, your dad is so great. He's such a good man. If he could just come back to the church, everything will be okay.' I find those conversations deeply offensive because I am not telling my children that I believe the church is a cult, that I believe the church is wrong, that I— you know, I'm not doing that because I respect the system of belief and I respect what it can do for people. And so I will not disparage it like that to my kids. I'll let them figure that out on their own if it works for them or not. I'll support them, and I expect them to treat me in the same way. You do not disparage my belief system because it's not yours, and you don't tell my kids that they need to pray for me and save me. My children's job is to be loved by me, full stop. They have no responsibility to save me. And we put that on these kids. It is a function of the culture, and I, I take great umbrage with it.. And so I, I decided in that space to explain these situations calmly, not in anger. And I sat with my mom. I remember after an encounter where this was done to me for 2 hours, and I get what it means. What it means is they love me. This is something that has lifted them and inspired them in their lives, and they want me to have a piece of it. I appreciate that, but don't you dare tell my children that I'm lost and if I could just be better and they help me come back, it'll be okay. Because that's disrespecting my authority and my belief system with my kids. And so I told that to my mom, and my mom was like, I don't understand. And I said just what I said to you. I said, what if I start telling my kids that the church is evil? What if I start telling my kids all of the things that I have disagreements about and making them see the way I see? How would you feel about me doing that? And my mom's like, look on her face when she sees it turned on her. Oh, right. But when we are in the majority, when we sit in a space where we feel like we're a part of the majority and we feel comfortable within that, it becomes very difficult to see how we're, we're harming others that are not a part of that. And we have to be cognizant of that, and we have to give them grace for not seeing it, because I know I've done this myself. I have done it in other spaces as well. I've done it as a Mormon to other people when I was devout and thinking I was going to save you. Well, I burned in hell, right? So I really worked— that was my big effort. How do I extricate myself without becoming somebody that is bashing? I didn't want to become a basher because I love the people that are part of it. That's— that was my issue.

What is your relationship with your parents and with all of your family that are still in the church now? Is it better?

It's great.

Yeah, I would say so. My whole life from what happened as a kid, I didn't think— I had a horrible relationship with my parents. I couldn't even sit in a room with them and have a conversation. I would just wait until I could leave. I'd give one-word answers. You know, it just was not a good relationship. I can hang out with my parents now and talk. Because I'm me. I'm 100% me. I'm owning what I am. I'm respectful of them. They're respectful of me. We've been clear on this. And my siblings are great. They support me. They help me beyond, I think, what most families are like. I think my family is wonderful.

And what about your kids? Are they still in the church?

My children are. I've had a really tumultuous divorce. So the two that have left home have come back to me and are good with me now and not afraid of me stealing them from the church. The other two that are at home, the one that's about to leave, she's graduating in May, she has started reaching out to me this year, texting me after 4 years, and my youngest, she just sends me scriptures telling me to repent. And that if I don't, uh, repent, I'll lose everything. So that's my communication with her. But that's— she's, she's looking me through the veil of her mother's eyes, so I gotta wait till she leaves.

James, can I ask, are you— I'm so grateful, uh, to be part of this conversation. I think you're so courageous. I admire your courage. I I don't have anything anywhere near that kind of courage.

Come on.

Yeah, you've shown it. I just don't. An extraordinary individual and so brave and courageous to come on here and talk about these things because of where you are. Can I ask, have you found the peace that you yearn, that you look for? Are you in a good place now?

You know, I would say I'm on the road, right? But I fluctuate, right? I think so. I was struggling So what this is— I'll give you kind of what, what happened, right? So in 2017, I decide I need to clean my life up and take care of this so my wife can be with me. I hire some counselors, we go into therapy for 2 and a half years to try to work things out and deal with the issues and the things that I've done. And, uh, in that process, um, I lose my family. I have lost my religious faith. I encounter my child abuse, have to learn to absorb that and accept that. And I quit my job and started out on my own. So some big, big things, right? And I— oh, and then my children won't— my children wouldn't see me. So I was not able— I was in COVID. I was completely isolated, couldn't see my children, couldn't see anybody. And, uh, I kept saying to people, I feel like my children have died, and, and I'm so lonely without them. It was a deep, deep loneliness. And did you know that Utah has the highest rate of parental alienation for men of any state in the nation? And I'm positive it has everything to do with the institutionalized methods of the church in making families fearful of spouses that leave the church. We become somebody that is an enemy. And so it creates the culture there in Utah, creates an environment that if you leave the church and your family at the same time, you're likely to be isolated and alienated and not have access to your kids. And it's supported by the community. And, uh, so I'm in this space of anger and loss and frustration. And I found— I was reading Brené Brown's book, Atlas of the Heart, and she talks about the symptoms of grief and what a complex emotion is. I work as an emotional intelligence coach, and so I'm looking at all these emotions I'm struggling with, and I realized I'm dealing with grief. Grief is loss. Grief is loss. And so when you lose your faith, a faith that is as embedded into you as a Mormon religion is, that's a grieving process. You lose your family. That's a grieving process, right? You lose your sense of who you are because you were abused and you can't get that. That's a grieving process. So I was dealing with a heavy load. And, and I continue to deal with it, but it's become lighter to bear. If you want to get Mormon, it was like, it was like Nephi and Lehi and his family in the wilderness when they couldn't eat meat and they bore their burdens and they became— it made their— it made— they became strong enough to bear it, right? I think that's what we do. Our challenges create strength within us. And what I like to do is I like to imagine when days are hard that I'm sitting on a roller coaster, say the Cannonball at Lagoon, and I'm tipped over facing that drop. And there's fear. There's real fear there. That's the, the idea of it, but it's not actual fear because you know you're going to be okay. And it turns into excitement, and you raise your arms and you drop and you yell with joy and you come up on the other side, right? And I think when we begin to think of our emotions in that way— I'm in a hard spot, this is the drop, this is the excitement, and the rise up will get me out of this. And I'll be so happy for this drop. And so that's how I look at it, right? I look at it as an opportunity for real growth because that's what this life is about.

That's just such a beautiful perspective and a way to look at it. And the more I sort of interact in this kind of space, this inside-out space, talking to people who have left talking to people who maybe who are in but are maybe sort of on the edge of the inside. One of the things that I think is just a huge gaping hole in how the church approaches challenging issues is the issue of mixed faith marriages. Yeah, we do not have any tools in the church, emotional tools to be able to navigate that space effectively.

Yeah.

And everything we hear about people who leave— Ian and I have talked about this on this podcast a number of times, but I like to refer to it as the Korihor model. Everybody who leaves is a Korihor. Everybody who leaves is wicked and evil and secretly knows the church is true but has made some kind of deal with the devil and is now undermining the church for purely evil purposes. That's the only template we have for anybody who leaves. And so what happens when you're married to Korihor? And maybe we should find a different template. Maybe not everybody who leaves is a pure evil antichrist. We haven't even begun to approach the possibility that that's true. Yeah, I'm in a right now as we speak. I'm sort of in a Twitter war with a bunch of people who are quoting Elder Maxwell, who coined the phrase, they can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone.

Yeah.

And I'm pointing out that when Elder Maxwell said that, He had just listed a bunch of different things. Some people leave the church and walk away and some people do this and others leave the church and can't leave it alone. He was talking about a subset.

Yeah.

Of the people who leave, not of everybody who leaves. But as time has gone on, that generalization has become applied to everybody who leaves. Yeah. And so everybody who leaves is pure evil. Everybody who leaves is, is Korihor. And it's, it's, I think, if not the biggest, one of the biggest obstacles the church has to growing and to being a healthy, safe place for everybody and an accepting place because it's— and it divides families not just in marriages, But children who leave, I mean, you've got a child now that all she'll do is, is call you to repentance. Yeah, but when children leave, they experience their parents spending all day, every day calling them to repentance.

That's exactly right.

I mean, what's the way out here? I mean, do you see a process here? Do you see a light at the end of the tunnel where the church can finally get to the point where we could have healthy relationships with those who leave? I mean, Ian talks a lot about the fact that there's no way to leave with dignity, that everybody who leaves, they— we have to kick you on your way out.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know that I see a lot of changes in that regard. I, in fact, I think I see a lot of retrenchment that we're doubling down on the worst kinds of behaviors that exacerbate that particular problem. Do either of you see a light at the end of that tunnel?

I don't. I see, when you approach something from the place of superiority, we are the one and only true truth, the one and only true church, the one and only truth is all through us. When you come from that place, you're not coming from a place that is godly. You just aren't. Think of Christ, right? And this is what I like to do, and, and this is how I have been able to actually disengage from that kind of concept. Because if I read the New Testament, to me, when I read the life of Christ and then I read the commentary on his life by the disciples around him who are a product of the Pharisees of the time, they take his teachings, and then they turn it back into the Law of Moses. And he's trying to stop them, right? But we are creatures of habit, and we go to what we know, and we love assurity, we love certainty, we want it and crave it. And so if we feel— and we are a society that has become obsessed with comfort and ease. And avoiding pain. And I believe there is no growth in that space. That is the essence of damnation in hell. And yet we surround ourselves with this idea of you do these things, you're going to heaven. You do these things— that is the very essence of hell to me. You are not given— we say you live by the dictates of your conscience unless your conscience tells you to do something that I, the leader, told you not to do., and then you don't know because Satan's telling you to do this. That is a complete breakdown of the concept. And we got to go back to the new law that Christ made. And I don't see any religions doing this, because what happens with a religion is it becomes a turnkey solution to living a life. You walk in here, we're going to hand you the keys, this house is set up for you. But I'm building a custom-made home. My home is mine., and I will work with God, and I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to miscalculate. I'm going to make errors, but they will be mine to own. I will not say, I did this because my church told me to, and so I'm not accountable for it. I will not give that up. But Christ said, right? What are the most— when he was asked what are the most important commandments, he said, to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind, and strength. And to love thy neighbor as thyself. And that to me is the essence of all religion, because he says, upon these two commandments hang all the commandments of God, right? And so when you go back to that, and if you have charity— if you do not have charity, then, then nothing matters. Charity is what it is all about. We get told this over and over and over again. Christ goes, he meets a woman caught in adultery, surrounded by men about to stone them. What does he do? He forgives the woman and sends her on his way, on her way. He doesn't hold a disciplinary council. He doesn't have her, you know, dragging through months of sackcloth and ashes. He knows her heart. He knows she doesn't want to do this, and he lets her go. And guess what else he doesn't do? He doesn't disparage the men that were about to stone her that probably had sex with her. And wanted to kill her to hide it, right? He doesn't disparage them either. He lets them all go and forgives them. And that is the heart that I'm trying to find in myself to give to others. It's a difficult thing to do. And whatever methods you can find to help create that peace and love in your heart, use them. And if you're in a space where you're with a religion or a group or a belief that is making you feel anger and hatred and hostility toward another person, I would suggest you reevaluate what you are believing. And I don't think our church does that because we give up our right to evaluate because we hand it over to our leaders. And our leaders are, like you said, caught in a checklist of life. You didn't say that, but you kind of were saying, you know, like they The expectations that are upon us are limiting the capacity of people to see someone that is not a part of our faith and give them the respect and love that they deserve. I just, I don't see how we get past that. One more thing, in the New Testament, right, it always talks about Christ was called only to the Jews. That's written by the men that were recording him coming. And yet, even as they're saying it, the miracles he performs for people that are Romans and of other creeds are there. And somehow they say that he was only called to the Jews. Well, no, he was called to the world. And he had to force, after he died, the apostles to preach to the world because they still refused. Even though he had been doing it by example the whole time. I don't believe for a second that he only was interested in helping the Jews. I think that that is a human concept placed upon God because we don't have the ability to handle it. And I see that in the scriptures all the time. I think our human limitations we place upon God And then we say it's from God that we're doing this. That's what I see with leaders. And that's why I choose not to be a part of a religion, because I think now I'm giving up my access to God to you. I don't need that. If I live in love and kindness and charity, I have access to God.

Well, you said something early on. You talked about, okay, the church is sort of a turnkey solution. They hand you the keys to the house. And you're building a custom home.

Yeah.

You know, at the beginning of this, I quoted C.S. Lewis. There's another quote from C.S. Lewis that I've actually heard in church quite a few times that I think is applied by the church in ways that I don't think C.S. Lewis intended. He talks about— he says, imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps you could understand what he is doing. He's getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on. You knew that those jobs needed doing. And so you are not surprised. But presently he starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is he up to? The explanation is that he is building quite a different house from the one you thought of, throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage, but he is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it himself. And I mean, I've heard that quoted in conference. I've heard a lot of people talk about that, but I don't think people think through the implications of that. Yeah, that everybody is a custom home. You know, there isn't— I mean, I get accused, okay. I mean, I'm still in the church and I have people come and say, well, yeah, but your Mormonism isn't Chapel Mormonism, or your Mormonism isn't real Mormonism, or you're living a Mormonism that doesn't exist. I've heard all of those things said.

Yeah.

And my response is, well, first of all, I know it exists because I'm living it. And I mean, I believe every single person lives a version of their faith that is different from everybody else's. In and out of the church. Every marriage is a mixed faith marriage to some degree. Everybody interprets the gospel differently or doesn't interpret it at all, but everybody is living their own life. Everybody is building their own custom home. And I think if there is a light at the end of the tunnel, I think the core of Mormonism, the core of the restored gospel, at least in my mind, is universalism, is this idea. I mean, if we don't believe everybody's going to be saved, then what on earth are we doing all this temple work for, right? What on earth are we doing all of this for? And I think the implications of that are lost on both members and leaders. Yeah, we keep acting, we are the only true church, and therefore we are the chosen few. We are the Jews that Jesus came to visit, and Everybody else can just burn.

Yeah.

And it's like, at your— at the core of this doctrine is this beautiful idea of universalism. And I absolutely believe that everybody eventually gets to where they need to be. I believe if you want to put it in Mormon terms, I'm one of these who believes in progression in the kingdoms.

I agree.

Eternity is a very, very long time. And if it takes billions or trillions of years for the Adolf Hitlers or the most evil people you can imagine to finally get to where they need to be, eventually that will happen. Eternity is a very long time. And I really would like to see us recognize that as a church and as a people, because I think that's the way out of this. That's the way. Oh, okay. Well, James, James is taking this different path right now, so I can either harangue him and try to get him to come back to the path that I think he should be taking, or I can leave it in the hands of God, continue to love him and accept him for who he is, and trust that God loves him at least as much as I do and will, and will help him get to where he needs to be. I just think— I think the tools are there in the church and we just don't use them. Or we—

I agree. I totally agree. I, I love to quote, so I get that kind of stuff too all the time, whereas people are like, you got to do these things and you're never going to get there, right? You know, for my daughter as well. But my response is always Moses 1:39. When God's speaking to Moses, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And when you look at that, if you truly believe that God is all-powerful, all-knowledgeable, capable of doing anything, and his sole energy is to, to bring to pass my immortality and eternal life, who am I to say he can't do it? And who am I to say he's not going to do it for you? And, and we lose track of that. In our self-righteous indignation, wanting people to live the way we're living, and rather than saying, what's my path and what does God want me to do? And, and we're all trying to, you know, find an easy step. It's not an easy thing to figure that out on your own. It is painful, it is heart-wrenching, it is confusing, it's uncertain, and, and yet you must do it, and God is asking you to do it. And if you are one of those people that is just taking the turnkey solution and following it and not following your heart— I think you can follow your heart and be part of the turnkey solution. I'm not saying that you can't, but I think most people forgo the exercise of aligning themselves personally with God because they're following a turnkey solution. And they are the ones that are the lukewarm water that will be spewed from the mouth of God because he's disgusted with their lack of attempt. But I'm the one being told that I'm, you know, because I've left, I'm the one getting scripture saying you are not living your talents, so you'll lose all the talents that you've been given because you're a sinner. Well, uh, I, I mean, I got so many things to say to that, right? But it's very much what you're saying. God has a plan for me and I'm following it. And I have full trust that he's going to figure out how to bring me back to him. Because in my situation, this earthly situation with my perfectly imperfect love for my children, I would do anything to get my kids back. And I do everything I can to bring them back.

Right?

And so I know that God who loves me in his perfect way has got a plan for me and I trust it. And I don't care what the Mormons say they think the plan is. I know it's bigger than what they're saying. If you read the School of the Prophets, the discussions of what afterlife is, is endless. And they just picked this one. It's great branding. It's good for marketing. We've hit the expanse of what marketing can do with this one concept. Now we maybe need to consider maybe there is reincarnation. Maybe there are other things like they considered in the School of the Prophets. If you read that, They have heated debates on what afterlife is. We've decided it's the plan of salvation with the three kingdoms. Well, that's pretty simplistic if you ask me. I think it's way greater than that. It's way greater. And I don't think that God gives up on you ever.

We're coming to the end of the conversation. James, Jim, uh, James, I think you're an extraordinary individual. I really do. And I, I felt that this conversation has been for me, actually. I've learned so much, uh, about me listening to you and your experience. And I, I can't thank you enough on a personal level, uh, for coming on and talking to us and sharing your feelings. And your courage and your bravery is extraordinary. And You're on an extraordinary path. Before we close out our conversation, could you just tell us, where do you see your future? What does that look like for you? And then after that, perhaps, and if Jim's got any other comments after that, would be great, of course. And then after that, maybe we could, it's not like I'm closing a SACRED meeting, isn't it? Our final song. Before Jim gives the, uh, the benediction, uh, final song, if you could play us out on a, uh, on the second song that you have and gives a little bit of background to that as well. So, you know, what does the future, uh, look like for you right now? What's that, uh—

so in what terms are you talking about my future?

Well, and where do you see, uh, your life going in terms of all the experiences that you have? Yeah, you, you've comes from all these different challenges. You went through an extraordinary period of, you know, you talk about a sense of grief and a sense of loss in your community, in your family, and religion, you know, recovering all those memories. You go through all that traumatic experience. If you're coming out at a, at a certain point, what does the, um, what, what, as you look ahead in your life, where do you, where do you want to be? Where do you, what are you trying to, uh, find out, trying to You know, I really love, honestly, the Book of Abraham.

And Abraham, after his father tries to kill him, he says that he wants to find greater peace and knowledge in the learnings of God, in the mysteries of God. And so he goes and seeks out Melchizedek to learn what he learns, to find the peace, right? The peace and the knowledge and the mysteries of God. And that to me is where I am at. I'm seeking peace. I'm seeking knowledge and mysteries. And that requires a real open, kind space. It is not a space that can be filled with hate. And so I have, I've literally, just give me a second. I'm going to grab a book. Oh, I won't grab it.

It's right over here.

I have this book on how to forgive when you can't. Forgiveness to me is a deeply powerful thing and is often seen as a religious thing, but it is essential. It is essential to cleansing ourselves so that we can be freed from anger and hatred. And in fact, they have actually prescribed forgiveness in hospitals to people that are having heart conditions. You are— I can't remember the percentage— but way more likely to have a heart attack if you're harboring anger. So are you a member of the church that is harboring anger towards someone that you love that has left? Because if you are, you're wrong. You should not harbor anger toward them. You should find a way to forgive, no matter why they left, no matter what they've done to you. Forgive. And so that's where I'm at. I'm working through this process, and it's a very complex process of how to forgive and coming to a resolution of owning the truth. You know, we often get in when we're angry we begin to fall into her perspective. I could talk about, you know, the breakdown of my marriage, and I could be very disparaging to my ex because she did some things that are really stupid. But guess what? So did I. A whole lot. A whole lot. And so if I don't own my piece of it, I can't find peace. I'm stuck in wanting payment. So for me, I think my future— I've worked really hard on this. I want to rid myself of all that kind of habitual anger The things that rise up, the triggers that I have around the Mormon religion, where I was hurt. I would love to be able to sit in a conversation with somebody that says something that I think is ignorant and stupid and frankly harmful and not feel anger and feel peace and acceptance and understanding for them. Because that's what God does with me. I guarantee as I sit here now, thinking I've learned so much in my life, I have massive blind spots where I am ignorant. And I want to be able to have the grace of whoever's talking to me to not make me feel like a fool. And I hope to extend that to the people that I'm seeing around me as well. So that's, that's my goal with this. It's where I hope to be.

James, thank you again. I, from both of Jim and I, we extend our love and gratitude to you. And if you'd be kind enough to plays out. Just give us a little bit of a background on, on the song that you're gonna—

yeah, this is not a song I wrote. I was thinking about— I got some songs that I wrote, um, but I was thinking about this conversation and what we're doing here, and, um, this song is by, um, Coldplay. It's called Green Eyes. And when I learn a song, when I memorize a song, I have to handwrite it. To memorize it. And I'm writing this song called Green Eyes, and I notice that I'm spelling the word green, G-R-E-E-N-E, which is the maiden name of my mother. It is the maiden name of Art of Cap. It is the maiden name of Sharon Larson, my aunts. It is the, my middle name. It is the middle name of all the boys in my family, and it is the extension, the reunions that I go to, of this family that I am in. And it says, um, green eyes, the spotlight shines upon you, um, and how could anybody deny you, right? It's this idea of this woman that he loves. It's a love song, right? But for me, as I was playing and singing it, I was thinking of my family. The greens, my sisters. I have 7. My mother and her sisters, who, after I went through a divorce and all of my ugliness of my life was exposed— and it was ugly, I mean, I had some real issues, right? And so it was ugly, and they knew all this stuff, and I left the church, and yet my green family stood with me. And I thought it was interesting that as I was memorizing it, I was seeing them in the song. So that's this song.

Honey, you are the rock upon which I stand. So I've come here to talk. I hope you'll understand. But Green Eyes, you're the spotlight. Shines upon you. And how could anybody deny you? Came here with a load and it feels so much lighter since I met you, honey. You should know, oh, I could never go on without you. Green as honey, you are the sea upon which I flow. So I've come here to talk. There's some things you should know. The Green Act. Oh, you're the one That I wanted to find.

Yeah.

Anyone who could deny you must be out of their mind. Yeah. Came here with a load, and it feels so much lighter since I met you. Honey, you should know, oh, I could never go. About you, green eyes. Oh, honey, you are the rock. Upon which I stand.

All right, that's it.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

And with that, we will bring this to a close. Thank you very much, both of you. And to all of our listeners, we look forward to seeing you next time on Inside Out.