A Robust Conversation with Les Cairns

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here with the mighty Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I'm very good today, Jim. How are you?

I'm good. I'm running out of cool adjectives to apply to you. Mighty just seemed like the right one for the day. But we have, we have a mighty guest with us here today. We are joined by Les Kearns, who I remember quite fondly from my time as a missionary. I served in the Air Branch in 1988, and Les was a fixture of the Air Branch. And I have very fond memories of being in his home and speaking with his family. Family. And, uh, Les, you and I actually went tractoring together once. I don't know if you remember that.

I do.

Yeah, I do.

I, I remember we were at somebody's doorstep and I was dancing it around and you just said, look, we're from the Mormon Church, do you want to know anything about the Mormon Church? And I went, this is a guy who cuts to the chase. It was nice. And I also remember once sitting on a bench and eating lunch with my companion. And this car pulls up, the window rolled down, and you leaned out and they said, what is it they say about the devil and idle hands? And I thought, oh, he's caught me not working. I'm in big trouble. But, but I, I have very fond memories of you and your family. And very fond memories of the Air Branch, which is now the Air Ward. And you apparently have moved from the home that you were in back in the '80s, but you are still in the Air Ward. Is that correct?

Yeah.

And how would— how, how has the Air Ward changed in the intervening decades since, since I was bothering you guys?

'Cause I heard the branch grew when you left, Jim. The church just went forward in leaps and bounds when you left the branch.

I hoped you were going to say shrank after I left, but no. That's a good question. I don't know how the principle of growth operates across the church. Because we hear wonderful stories of Africa and South America and areas where the church is really growing. But unfortunately, Ayr as an area has suffered economically. A lot of industries have gone. We, we used to build parts for Boeing aircraft. We used to build aircraft in Prestwick. We had Digital, who made computers. In fact, our present Bishop Andrew Colbourne moved here to work for Digital. A lot of these industries unfortunately have closed, with the result that people move away. All my kids, we, our children grew up in the church, but they've all moved to other parts of the UK. In fact, My son Jamie is in Indianapolis working for a pharma company, and my other son and daughter are in the south of England. There are just not the economic opportunities in Ayrshire as much, so we find it difficult to hold young people. So there's a preponderance of older members, and the numbers are not like they used to be. Still a great spirit, still a wonderful atmosphere, still faithful, good, strong members, but we find it much more difficult nowadays to attract young people and certainly to hold them.

Well, that was even a problem back in the '80s in that initially when the church came to the British Isles, The message was join the church and then gather to Zion.

Uh-huh.

They come across the ocean, come move to Utah.

Yeah.

You know, so, so, you know, the church was in Great Britain and in Scotland long before it was in many places in the United States. And yet so many of those members ended up coming to America. And that's, that's the reason why I'm an American. Almost all of my ancestors are Scottish.

Yep.

But they all joined the church in the 19th century and they emigrated to the Salt Lake Valley. But, you know, in looking at that, you had reached out to us. We had a conversation with George Stewart, with whom you are well acquainted, and you had reached out to us that you wanted to sort of tell a different side of that story in a way. And you particularly said you had a a different take on the Elder Lund story. You know, Elder Lund had said to, to George Stewart, well, the people love you, but the Lord doesn't want you.

Uh-huh.

Which seemed to be a rather sort of harsh thing to say. Yeah. But I'm wondering if you can sort of qualify those experiences. What was your experience with Elder Lund?

Well, I've never met Elder Lund personally. My wife loves him to bits because she loves his books, and I just can't imagine. Now, let me preface anything I say, Jim and Ian. I love George Stewart to bits. He's a good friend. I've gone to see George, particularly since he left the faith. I've got nothing but admiration for the guts of his sweetheart, Jean, how she still goes to church in spite of George now distancing himself. I don't want in any way to infer any criticism because I've not walked in his shoes. I wasn't there when Elder Lund said whatever he said.— that my take on it would be there aren't too many people in the church who experience being a counselor in a stake presidency. I've done it twice, and I've never been a stake president. But my guess is, and I am just guessing, that whatever Elder Lund said, What he probably meant was, the people do love you, and who's not to love George Stewart? I mean, he's just the cuddliest, loveliest, easy-to-love human being. He just is gentle and kind and lovable. And so, you know the process when a stake president's being called. They bring in all the bishops, they bring in the high council, and the previous stake presidency. And so they asked them, who do you think should be the next stake president? Give us 3 names. And it's— I'm speculating here, but it's possible that to a man they said, we love George Stewart, but we don't think he's up to being a stake president, or we love George Stewart and we think he'd be a great stake president. Whatever they said, at the end of the day, the General Authority, and in some respects Jim, you'll understand this, and Ian, you'll understand it having been in the UK for longer. These brethren come in almost sometimes as if they flew in from Mars. They don't know anybody. They don't really know the politics or the circumstances of the church, so they don't know the people, and they're having to depend not just on inspiration and revelation, but on the opinions of the people that they interview. And maybe he meant, George, the people love you, but what's that story in the Old Testament about? Was it Saul who was chosen, or was it— forget which king— don't look on the height of the man, but you know what it is, look on the heart.

Looketh on the heart, yeah.

That's it. So, I'm sure that what he meant was, and I'm sure he was meaning it kindly, "The people love you, but the Lord has not chosen you to be the Stake President." I just can't for the life of me imagine that he would say, "But the Lord doesn't want you." I mean, that's a cruel and frankly a stupid thing if it was said literally. I just can't I don't think that anyone in that situation would say that. I feel for George. If I can just share a personal experience, I served just after Peter Cameron. It was Bob Watson who was called to replace him. I know a lot. You know Bob? I do, yes. Lovely guy, and I served with Bob during his term as Stake President. And to be honest, I confess now, because I'm older and it doesn't matter so much, I wanted to be a stake president. I think I was ambitious, stupidly. My vanity was being caressed by well-meaning members who say things, Les, you know, this is your ticket, you know, nudge nudge, wink wink, it's going to be you. People say these things because they think you want to hear it, or maybe because they want to see it, and I did. My vanity was locked in. I wanted that honor. My pride was in the wrong place. But anyway, I wasn't picked, and the feelings after it, when your expectation is high and that there is a serious possibility— it's quite common for counselors in the stake presidency to be called as the president, and it didn't happen. And that was an empty place for me for a little while. So I have nothing but sympathy for George. But I have to say, in Elder Lund's defense, I just don't think that if that's what he said, that's not what he meant.

I think that's probably fair. I mean, as I heard it, I mean, because I don't have any firsthand experience with any of this at all, obviously. But when I first heard George Stewart say that, I sort of tried to put myself into the mindset of Elder Lund and tried to think of a way that those words could have been said with a kind intention. Uh-huh. The idea being, okay, you need to know that the people love you.

Yes.

Yeah. You need to know that you are adored by this stake. For whatever reason, the Lord has other plans for who the stake president ought to be.

Correct.

I mean, I think that, that was probably the intention.

Uh-huh.

But, but just to say the Lord doesn't want you is just such a harsh thing that, you know, we are all capable of sticking our foot in our mouth. Of course we are doing that. And so it, it reinforces, I think, the reality that in order to be a member of this church and have a sustainable faith, you need to be able to embrace the reality of a fallible leadership, of the fact that, that no matter who you are, no matter how far you rise in the ranks of church leadership, at no point is your agency extracted from you. At no point do you cease to lose— do you cease to make mistakes? Do you lose the capacity for error? And it sounds to me like Elder Lund in an attempt maybe to be kind, just stepped in it.

Yeah.

Is that your reaction or do you have?

No, no, I think you touched on an interesting concept, Jim, about fallible leaders. I think I shared in a Facebook message once. Are you on a treadmill, Jim?

No, I'm trying to get my charger for my, my, my, sorry.

All right. Well, I keep talking.

It's about to die. So go ahead.

No, um, about fallibility. Um, I think I shared on a Facebook page once with both of you., or certainly with you, Jim, about, you know, you've heard that old ditty about the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church. Have you heard it, Ian?

No, I don't know.

Well, you know, it's, somebody at church once shared this with me that, just a little ditty, and it's no criticism of the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church teach that the Pope is infallible, but nobody believes it. The Mormon Church teach that the prophet is fallible, but nobody believes it.

And yes, I have heard that and shared that a number of times.

And I, you know, I'm going to say this, Jim Bennett, You fellows collectively, not only did the missionaries, and I'm talking about my generation, I'm not talking about the early saints who, if it hadn't been for the British saints, the church would have died on the vine in the pioneer days, but in my day, I was a baseball baptism. And you brought the beautiful, wonderful message of the gospel, but you also brought a culture that we adopted. And I often, as I've reflected on the early leadership of the church in Scotland, good men as they were, I think we were too quick and too willing to embrace American culture as at the same time embracing the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I mean with little things and big things. For example, for generations, congregations of the church in the UK pronounce the word A-M-E-N, amen, And we British don't say amen, but in the LDS Church, we all say amen except me. It's amen. And we say amen. You guys say amen. And we've adopted amen because it's the way the missionaries would say it. So we just did it too. And I wished, if I had one wish about the leadership of the church, it would be that they would expose their fallibility a little more comfortably. I mean, if I were to tell you that I'm 78 and only last year, was it this year? It was maybe this year, When Elder Holland, Elder Ballard, God rest his soul.

Yeah, just passed away.

Yeah, and Elder Cook, Quentin Cook, came to the UK, and on the church page in the UK, there was a photograph of Elder Cook in Liverpool with an overcoat on, a bonnet, He's got a bald head, right, a bonnet, and an open-neck shirt, and I was quite stunned to see an apostle without a dark suit and a tie and buttoned shirt and wearing a bonnet, because we don't get to see these men in their real lives, and And we do things— this is a bit near the bone, but I'm going to say it anyway. See, this business of standing when an apostle comes into the room, I just wish that people like Geoffrey Holland would say, brothers and sisters, please don't do this. Like Peter, you know the story when Peter healed a man and he knelt down and Peter said, for any sake, stand up, I'm just a man. I just wish that the brethren would not perpetuate these things that give the impression that they are infallible. And I'll just finish on this note. One of the things that really saddens me is it filters down to local level. Local leaders know that they're fallible, but they don't like to say it. So the membership also knows that they're fallible, but they don't like to say it. So you've got this kind of unspoken— what's the word— this unspoken psychology, psychological thing that's going on, whereas I know that you're fallible, but I don't want to remind you. And the leader I know that I'm fallible, but I don't want you to know because I don't want to appear human and real and fallible. And so we've— and it leads to poor counseling sometimes. Poor counseling. I am— and I'll finish on this little story. Elder Bednar came to Glasgow a few years ago, and he held one of his Q&A sessions. And I put my hand up, and I said, tell me, Elder Bednar, what's it like What's the atmosphere like when the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are debating issues? And he said, it's very robust. And that was all he said. And I quickly put my hand up again, and I got sniggers all around, as you do. And I said, can I ask a supplementary? And he said, well, if you must. I said, so why isn't Why isn't that prevalent at a local level? And I think he was a little bit stumped to answer it, but he said, well, it's maybe just a matter of faith. But I know, I don't know if you guys have read the book, David O.

McKay and Modern Mormonism.

Modern Mormonism. Well, I'll tell you, that is some insight as to the squabbles and the rancor and the conflict of views with Elder Benson and his John Birch Society and you Americans paranoid about communism and anything that smacks of socialist thinking. And there was real conflict amongst these brethren, but we suppress that, I think, to our detriment. We don't always encourage real dialogue. And the most beautiful answer I once heard was when the Brethren, the Twelve, and the First Presidency meet. I think it was President, maybe Nelson, who said it. We, if we can't agree on an issue, we are happy to shelve it and then bring it up again and again until we get total unanimity. We're not very good at that at a local level. Anyway, I've got that off my chest.

No, well, all of those things, I want to explore some of those things. I mean, you bring up David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. I've had a number of conversations with Greg Prince, who wrote that book, and he interviewed a good number of the sources for that book are members of my family.

Oh, right.

My parents spoke to Greg Prince, my aunts and uncles. But there's— my mother was assigned to be the curator of all of David O. McKay's papers. Uh-huh.

Right.

And she donated all of them She, she's, she's David O. McKay's granddaughter, right? He is my great-grandfather. But she donated all of the papers to the University of Utah, save, save one, and that is David O. McKay's personal copy of the book Man: His Origin and Destiny by Joseph Fielding Smith.

Yeah.

Which is an anti-evolution creed that insists the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Noah's Ark is entirely literal. The entire world was flooded. So humanity is only 4,000 years old and, and goes through all of these things. And David O. McKay was a firm believer in evolution. At one point he called it a beautiful theory. He was also a firm believer in geological time. And had no patience for that book. And Joseph Fielding Smith tried to get the church to publish it and say, this is the church's position on evolution. And so the copy of the book that she held on to has David O. McKay's private notes in the margins. And I looked at it.

I—

it's not— you know, when she was talking about it, I thought, oh, it's going to be really snarky and awful. And it really isn't. I mean, he puts a question mark here. He has a list of what he calls misrepresented scriptures and all this kind of stuff. But he very clearly just does not agree. And, and my mother did not want to have that out in the world. She did not want the world to know that David O. McKay and Joseph Fielding Smith had very strong disagreements about the subject of evolution and geological time. And for my part, I do not understand that. I, because I think that, uh, understanding, recognizing, as you say, you know, being able to account for that, I think that builds faith. I don't think it destroys faith.

Absolutely. I, I remember it when we were studying Doctrine and Covenants a couple of years ago in the Come Follow Me program, and one phrase that completely registered with me that I hadn't noted before is the number of times that the Lord says, "The kingdom is yours," meaning to me, it's, I've restored my gospel, but the church is in your hands, in men's hands. I mean, if the church had been restored in its totality, we wouldn't perhaps have a lot of these differing views. But the church has evolved, and yet it perhaps isn't fully or universally acknowledged that the church is in a constant state of evolution as a church, as an organization, and it's, it's men who run it. It doesn't— core doctrine doesn't seem to change, but the way that the policies change and the organization changes. I'll— if— can I take a moment just to mention a very small issue that has always bothered me? And I saw a humorous representation of it Recently with 3 apostles, maybe I shouldn't mention who they are. Well, maybe I will. It was Elder Ednar, it was Elder Cook, and Elder Uchtdorf, and it was one of the organization presidents. I think it would have been Sister Cordon, and they were having one of these worldwide young adult sessions. Now, for years, guys, I've never understood why in the church we refer to men presidents as president and women presidents as sister, right? It's always rankled me. It's always seemed chauvinistic and monogamous and just wrong. So I used to have people look at me as if I were a nutcase 'cause I would refer to a Relief Society president as president. It always bothered me, and that we, even at General Conference level, if a sister was giving a talk or saying a prayer, even if she was the president of an organization, she would be introduced as Sister So-and-so. But in this particular young single adult session, Elder Uchtdorf kept referring to Sister Cordon as President Cordon. He would turn to her and he'd say, "What do you think, President?" But Elder Cook and Elder Bednar, when they made reference to her, they used the phrase sister. And it was really odd, and I don't know that many people would have picked up on it because it was It's something, it's one of my bugbears, but he as a European, maybe, I don't know, but he was saying sister, sorry, he was saying president, and the other two were calling her sister. And I've noticed now in General Conference, we use the framework, we refer to sisters as president if they are a president of an organization. So these are just the subtle little things that creep in. I mean, another one, if I can just throw coals on the fire. In Britain, we don't refer to people by their middle initial like you do. You know, we don't, we don't talk about Russell M. Nelson. People don't refer to me as Les J. Cairns because I've got middle John as a middle name. It's an Americanism, but we do it all the time. And it's just, I've always thought it was completely daft. But you guys do it and fine if you're comfortable with that, but we shouldn't do it. And there's just something else that adds to this kind of putting people on a different level that we shouldn't.

No, I agree with you. The story I've told since my mission, talking about those kinds of cultural differences, is the story of going to the Bingham Terrace building in Dundee.

Yeah.

And seeing this massive basketball court in the middle of Scotland. Uh-huh. And watching Dundee youth playing football on the basketball court because they had never even seen a basketball before. The only people that were shooting baskets were the missionaries, the American missionaries. Missionaries that came up. But, you know, they built that building and with, with a sort of American template as to what a building's— a church building's supposed to look like. And that includes a huge cultural hall with a basketball court. And basketball— I don't know if it's changed in the intervening years, but basketball was not at all culturally prominent in Scotland while I was there. And, you know, And that, that seems like one of the more benign examples of how the culture of the Wasatch Front is sort of inflicted on the rest of the world. And I, and I do think we're getting better at not doing that as time goes on. I think as the church has expanded, you know, and as the church has become more and more international, that there are more and more people who are mindful of some of that. But some of the things you mentioned are, are some of my huge bugbears, as you call them, as well, particularly the idea of standing when an apostle enters the room or when the president of the Church enters the room, because I'm at every General Conference session when Russell M. Nelson You almost feel like you're an apostate if you drop the middle initial. If I call him Russell Nelson, I'm being disrespectful. Oh, we've just lost your sound there, Les.

That better?

That's better. Yes. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. But you almost feel like you're being disrespectful. Uh-huh. But it's silly. Yeah. I mean, why does the M make him more righteous than the not using the M. But anyway, you know, I'm there in the choir loft as Russell Nelson walks into the room and we all stand. And in the conference center, you're talking 20,000 people that are standing and waiting for this man to get to his seat. And, you know, I can remember President Hinckley always seeming sort of uncomfortable with that custom. Now, he'd come in, everybody'd stand up, and then he'd sort of make a motion like, okay, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can all sit down. Whereas President Nelson seems to revel in it. I mean, he walks in and we're all standing and we're all quiet, and he'll walk up to somebody and he'll talk to him for a second on his way to his chair. And I'll just think, you realize you have 20,000 people that are waiting for you to sit down. Could you tell us to sit down, or at least sit down yourself? I mean, these kinds of things perpetuate that culture of infallibility, perpetuate the idea that Russell Nelson is more than a man.

Yep.

And, and I— the, the other experience— and maybe I'm, I'm beating up on President Nelson a little too much. President Nelson has done wonderful things for which I am very grateful. While I was in the choir, we celebrated his 95th birthday, and there was a huge 95th birthday party for President Nelson, and it was just the most elaborate thing in the world. And, you know, everybody was talking about how wonderful he is, and there were songs that were written for him specifically. That were performed by these groups and, and all this. And I turned to the guy sitting next to me in the choir and I said, if Jesus himself were having a birthday party, how would it be any different from what we are doing right now for President Nelson? And he chuckled and he said, yeah, yeah, it's pretty much the same. You know, we were essentially engaged in what felt like to me an act of worship for President Nelson. And, and we do that. We do that subtly in so many ways. We do that in testimonies on a local level. We talk about what great, marvelous men these people are. And I don't want to take away from how great and marvelous they are. I think they are probably great and marvelous men. But I want to put the emphasis on men, not on the great and marvelous. I know a lot of great and marvelous people in and out of the church. And I can remember at one point I was in a gospel doctrine class and somebody in the class— we were talking about the issue, the principle of fallibility. And somebody in the class said, the thing you need to understand is that these men are operating on such a spiritual plane that is so far removed from where we are as rank-and-file members that it's kind of impossible for us to understand it. And my, my eyes just sort of rolled into the back of my head and I said, I think there are 15 people in this room who are just as righteous as the 15 men who stand at the head of this church. And that there are plenty of people who would be able, the Lord would be able to use and call to serve in those callings. Yeah. It's not a question of them being so far removed and beyond the human experience. They are absolutely grounded in the same kind of mortal experience that we are. Got it. You know, when I served my mission, after I left Eyre, I was called to serve up in Thurso, which is where the McKays came from. David O. McKay's father joined the church in a building up there that's now a crumbling ruin. But we went and visited it, got a nice picture in front of it. But it's— while we were up there, there was absolutely no activity up there. And so President Banks suggested that we do kind of a local fireside where I would speak about my ancestors who came from Thurso. And do it as kind of a public lecture rather than a sort of church fireside. And in the course of this, my parents sent me material to prepare for that, including a copy of David O. McKay's Unexpurgated Missionary Journal. And I read David O. McKay's missionary journal. He served his mission in Scotland and this will sound harsh, but he was a lousy missionary. He was homesick the entire time. He had a girlfriend that he ended up marrying, but he just was pining about how much he missed home. And he was saying nasty things about the Scottish people and they were dirty and haggard, in his words. One woman said he went tracting and He said, I handed her a gospel tract and she thought I said gas bill and ripped it up and threw it in my face. I'd as lief die as distribute tracts ever again. And, you know, and I read this and it was such an uplifting thing for me to see David O. McKay's humanity. Yeah, because I had grown up with this kind of weight of ancestral expectation hanging over my head. You know, not only is David O. McKay my grandfather, my great-grandfather, but Heber J. Grant was my great-grandfather. I am the descendant of these prophets. And, and boy, you have a lot to live up to, don't you? And that was always kind of a soul-crushing weight for me in my childhood and in my adolescence. It was, geez, I'm just a schlub. Look how far the apple's fallen from the tree. And then when I discovered that David O. McKay was a person and was kind of a lousy missionary, I thought, geez, if he can be that and go on to be president of the church, maybe there's hope for James M. Bennett.

Yeah.

All right. I'm using my middle initial for, for the first time. Ian, what's your middle name? What do, do we use your middle initial?

Never. It, it, it, it leads to people learning what my middle name is, which is not my favorite name.

Oh, okay. So you won't even tell us what your initial is?

Uh, G. Yeah, G is my middle name.

Ian G. Ian G. Wilkes.

Ian G. Wilkes. I will tell you what it is. Uh, it was a—

Gertrude.

No, not quite as good as that.

Gertrude Wilkes.

Not as good as that. It's a name that, um, I was known by before I was 16, before I joined the church. My mom used my middle name as a preference over my actual real name, which is Ian, and I hated it and learned it was my middle name and did my first name Ian. But it's Gerald.

Gerald. That's the general authority name. You need to be I Gerald Wilkes.

I Gerald Wilkes. That's me. That's me. Gerald, my middle name.

That's okay.

Don't let it go. The whole world knows. First time ever revealed. Revelation right now.

Right here.

Do you want me to edit this out?

No, I'm okay. I'm all right. I've matured. I've gone, yeah.

Did you ever go by Jerry?

People called me all kinds of stuff. Jerry, Gerald, Jez. I was all, yeah, I just hated it. So, yep, Gerald is my middle name.

You don't look like a Geraldian.

No, no, thank goodness.

Yeah. It's an unusual name for an Englishman, to be honest.

It is.

It is.

I might be related to Gerald Lund. Who knows?

You might be. Yeah. Well, just thank the, praise the Lord that you weren't called Leslie. Because that's really, well, it's a sort of uncertain gender name.

Oh, fun. So you've been Les your entire life?

Yeah, well, actually, when I was on my mission, I always wanted to be, I'll not bore you with the story of how I got my name, but it was a moment of maternal madness on the part of my mother making a promise to my aunt But I won't go there. When I was on my mission, I decided to change my name to John because you can do that in Scotland by common usage. So when I, of course, you don't use your first name on your mission. So when I came home, I used to tell all my buddies, I've changed my name to John, and they would say, well, that's great, Les. And it never worked. So I adopted John as a middle name just out of respect to my dad who died when I was very young. So there we go. What's in a name?

Where did you serve your mission, Les?

France and Switzerland.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, French East Mission. That's probably one of the saving graces. I hope that we haven't been negative in talking about these things about fallibility. I do think it would help. I think there's a fear that if we expose too much fallibility, it somehow will undermine the church in the minds of the faithful or the not so faithful. I think it has the opposite effect, personally. I think psychologically, ultimately, it's more harmful to perpetuate a sense of infallibility. And that's why I yearn for them to be a little more pragmatic or open or just real. And Marlon and I had the chance to serve a mission just a few years ago, and we went back to the same mission, which was really a wonderful experience. And I wanted to comment on that, not that I know George's circumstance, but things turned out quite difficult for George. And I— he talked about finances and the church's finances. I just know from our experience, I used to say to people, serving a mission as a couple, it's not for the poor and it's not for the faint-hearted. That doesn't mean you need to be rich to serve a mission, but you need to have your finances in place. And if you don't have them, the church has got plenty of money., and it does support if, if the right leadership is in place and the right dialogue is taking place. There is money there to support. And I, I mean, I know George made reference to the church being worth $150 billion. Well, to be frank, I wish the church was worth $1 trillion. I think the way that the world is moving, I think the day will come when we will be glad that the church has a whole stack of financial resources to help people. The church— I'm now serving as the step clerk, and I get some insight into the faithfulness of members of the church who pay their tithes and fast offerings and how people are helped. And the church does wonderful humanitarian things, as you well know. Guys, I've been to Welfare Square in Salt Lake, and I've seen with my own eyes people who are not even members of the Church who are given employment opportunities and what the Church spends its money on supporting causes throughout the world. My son serves on a stake presidency down in England, and I know that he has been able to access considerable funds from the Church to support local charities, so I don't have any issues with that. I just wish that we would be a little more human, and I don't think it's done on purpose. I think we perpetuate it. I think the day will come when some of the brethren will say, for Annie's sake, don't stand up, you know, and we'll— I think we'll get a little more real about these sort of things. Anyway, I'm going to be going on too much about it.

Who keeps beeping?

Do we know? I thought it was me, but I tried to— Are you all hearing that?

Yeah.

I'm not. Nothing on my end. Nothing on my side.

All right.

I don't know if it's mine, but—

Well, can I just respond to some of these points, if I may? Can you hear me okay?

Yes.

All right. I've listened intently. I think it's fascinating. And so grateful, Les, that you're here. I really appreciate and value your experience and your insights and want to extend my respect to you in regards to what you've shared and your perspectives. Sorry, can you hear me?

I said, you're not patronizing me, I hope, Ian Wilkes.

No, no, I'm just setting you up for a more robust conversation.

Good.

Go for it.

Because when you, you rightly said that, you know, at the senior level, there's a robust conversation with the apostles, and absolutely there is, and there has to be. Obviously, they're dealing with all kinds of global issues, and you need to have that kind of relationship and that kind of platform to have those conversations. And my experience has been a little bit different, that in my bishoprics and stake presidency, we have had actually that kind of robust conversation. And I'd like to offer a little bit of robustness, if you like, in response to some of the points that you've been making for me. So when we set the podcast up, we said that we, you know, Jim's active, I'm not. It's called Inside Out. We're looking at all the qualities of the church. Absolutely, the church has extraordinary qualities, no doubt about that. But we also said, certainly from my perspective, that it has some challenges, some weaknesses, and some issues that it has to deal with. And we, we're talking about some of those here right now. I think we're talking about important issues, but I think there are also other issues that are even perhaps more important. In regards to George's experience, and so I want to get into that more robustness part of our conversation, if I may. So I've spoken to George about his experience with Elden Lund, I believe, and I've spoke to him a couple of times, I believe, every word he said. I don't doubt that is what has been his experience. And by the way, we all have— at the beginning of the podcast, we said that we would be sharing thoughts and ideas based, you know, in the podcast, based on our own unique experiences and perspectives. You might experience one thing, which is fine, great. I might experience another, you know, with the same person. You said also at the beginning that you hadn't met Jared Lund, and Jim Bennett. I have met Jared Lund personally. He interviewed me, and my experience was similar and almost identical to George's experience. When someone says something, I think it's important to get a cross-reference from other people's experience on that person. And my experience with him— and let me just frame this— I've worked with General Authorities President Hinckley a little bit when he came to York in England. And by the way, we all stood up, but it was very uncomfortable that we all stood up and he told us to sit down. He didn't want us to stand up. It was the state president that asked us to stand up. He didn't want that. He didn't ask for that. Some general authorities like that. I've worked with a number of general authorities, mostly individuals who have been at the apostle level, Elder Oaks, Elder Clark, Elder Cook, Elder Baxter, who you know from Scotland, and many of the authorities, apostles, are extraordinary, the humble kind. Even Elder Oaks, who's got a prickly side to him, him and I got along. He called me as an honor to say, 'President,' him and I go along really well. And, you know, my kind of guy. I quite like him. I know he's unpopular with some, even in the church, but he just—

he always gets the, uh, nasty stuff to talk about.

He does that. President Banks told me, I think, that that was his job. He said years ago, President Banks said, keep an eye on it because he's the one who's going to be delivering the tough messages. And absolutely, him and I had dinner together a few years ago and we had a very open, frank conversation. I really clicked with him, but he's not everybody's cup of tea. And so, but that said, my experience with Elder Lund was very similar to George's. Elder Lund basically said to me that I questioned my, not integrity, but questioned my worth, my value in that meeting. It was the worst experience I've ever had with Energy Authority. It was in the Edinburgh building. It was in 2003. It was when the new state presidency, Mike Watson, the Président McCaffrey, Alan Campbell, who I replaced as a bishop, they were called. And I found Elder Lund to have an ego, frankly, the size of a small moon. He was disrespecting, condescending, belittling, truly awful person, frankly, right? And I think we talk about infallibility, fallibility. I believe, and having served at that level, that, and you'll disagree with this probably, no doubt, that the brethren and the leaders, yes, they do have inspiration, they get inspiration and most of them are good and inspiration and they're humble, but not everyone for sure. I believe that the church is led by men that have no more special power than anyone else who is close to God, close to Christ, that they don't have any special unique authority or monopoly or rights on revelation or inspiration above anyone else. And again, I've worked with different general authorities. Some have just been amazing. I even had one general authority who again had a pretty big ego. I was conducting a stake presidency meeting, sat next to him and leaned across and made sure that I got his title correct. He said, don't get my title incorrect. My title is very important. Make sure. And the whole sense of— and that was Elder Christensen. I don't mind calling him out because I found him very huge ego, frankly. And I felt very uncomfortable and it was absolutely, you could tell in the tone and what he was saying, why he was saying it. It was just, it completely threw me and completely contrast to most of the experiences that I had. So the idea—

Yeah, sorry to interrupt. Because you promised that you were going to be robust with me. You haven't said anything that I in any way disagree with, and I don't think that you're countering my point at all.

I—

the worst, probably the worst experience I've ever had as a leader in the church was with a member of the First Presidency, and it was a collection of stake presidencies in Dundee, It won't take too much guesses to figure out who it was. A member of the First Presidency. And he was abrasive. He was rude. He was condescending, and he was grossly impolite. And I'm saying this, and I don't mind it sounding pompous. I was the only person in that room that spoke up. He was berating us for not bringing quality converts into the church—lawyers, doctors. Professional people, and we all sat there like lambs because no one had the bottle to speak up to this man, and I said, President, I'm sorry that that's how you feel. It may be that we are not bringing such people into the church, but I'll tell you what we are doing. We're raising them.

Yeah. In the church.

And I could go on and tell you more about that experience, but it would involve other members of stake presidencies. That was a crushing moment. It was. And so you're right, they are just men. And sometimes, frankly, they behave just like vain, pompous, arrogant men. But it doesn't alter for me. I'm just now being robust with you. I have had to learn that that does not— first of all, that's not Jesus Christ, and secondly, that's not the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I agree with what Ian— what Jim Bennett was saying earlier and what you've just said. I know many men, many men who I am confident their relationship with the Lord is just, if perhaps not more so, than some who have the calling of apostles and prophets. I just know many whose lives reflect true Christian Jesus virtues. Yes, so no, no, no, no apologies.

I think we agree. I remember when Kenneth Russell, Kenneth Johnson, sorry, came up to Edinburgh. He was the new collegial authority. You know, we're just gonna be blunt, and I can say that because I'm not in the church. He was a pompous ass, frankly. And it just was, it was awful. He spoke in the way that you described with that apostle. I was the only one in that room in front of that, all that. It was a priesthood leadership meeting in Edinburgh, and I was the only one that actually said, you know, why are you talking to us like this? I just didn't give a crap, right? I wasn't bothered. I was the bishop. Release me. I'm not bothered. And then the other time was when we were— I was on it. I was a bishop.

How did he respond to that?

Oh, he was shocked. And he took me to the side afterwards and basically gave me a grilling. And then in a quarterly stake bishops meeting presided over by Michael Watson, great stake president, President Breens, the mission president, you remember him, intended. And Jim, during this meeting with the stake presidency and all the bishops in the Edinburgh Stake, President Breens absolutely tore strips off us because we weren't delivering the numbers of converts. And he got so angry, I was there, he threw his scriptures down on the ground and acted like a pompous child. It was so mad. He was under so much pressure by his own authorities. He said, I'm not making my numbers. You're not doing enough, not doing this. The room after he'd finished was silent. I won't tell the reaction of some of the city presidency members, but they were absolute silent. I'm looking around wondering who's going to say something because this was absolutely inappropriate. And I just didn't care. I'm not— but I didn't want to be called a bishop, so I was quite happy to be released. And I— he frustrated me. That's not the word I would use, but so much. I said, who do you think you are talking to us like this? I said, you can't come in here and talk to people. I said, I remind you, we're volunteers. We're not full-time. We're volunteers. I've seen it. We're fathers, right? We're fathers. We got jobs, right? You're full-time. I said, mission work in Scotland is tough. I've been in ministry here. I'm a bishop. I know what it's like, right? I've been in Scotland for 12 years in my life, including ministry. I know, I know Scotland reasonably well. I know what it's like. I said, you can't come in here and talk to these brethren like this. And this is completely disrespectful and inappropriate, and you should be ashamed of yourself. You should see his look at— anyway, And he avoided me after that. And then when I go to the reunions, and I don't mind him listening to this, he avoids me when I go to the reunions on Highland Drive in Salt Lake somewhere in Utah. He won't talk to me, he won't look at me. And so I, you know, these— I want to highlight there are many, many wonderful leaders in the church, men and women, both presidents, women, President's Men. I like your comment on that. Right. But there's some real pompous jackasses where the— I'm just being blunt. I can, you know, I was like this in the church. So, so I was always surprised why they would call me to leadership position.

And I'm like that.

And I'm still here, by the way.

And we talk about that. I know it's great. We talk about being, being authentic, being honest. Yeah. Being infallible, you know, you know, being imperfect, speaking your mind. You know, with good intent, you know, being just being honest about it. And for most of my experience with leaders, it's been, it's been 80%, 80% wonderful, wonderful men, women, president women, president exit. But in the church at every level, including the First Presidency, my experience as well, there are some individuals whose ego, it just goes to that. Last comment, there was a, I can't remember the name, But President Hinckley presided over the— I think it was the refurbishment of the— actually, I think it was the inauguration of the Preston Temple. And I wasn't there, but my best friend was there. And this General Authority introduced President Hinckley and went on and on. This was in 19— was it '98 when the Preston Temple was dedicated? 98. So my friend was on the bishopric. A general authority was asked to introduce President Hinckley, and this general authority went on and on and on about how great President Hinckley was and this. And President Hinckley put his hand up and said— it went like that— and he said, basically had the guy sit down, and he got up and said, look, he said, just forget that. And so you've got this junior general authority with this big ego trying to impress President Hinckley for some, I don't know, some reason, probably some calling or something. And then President Hinckley, bless his soul, stood up in a very humble fashion, brought everybody back down to earth. Now I have huge admiration for President Hinckley. Me too. And leaders like that. These are extraordinary men. He had an approach with the British saints, as you well know, Les, right? They all connect. The Brits all connected with him. The Scots connected with him, right? He had a humility about him, a quiet reverence about him, a humor, a humor that we all loved. And boy, do we miss that. I don't see that in present Nelson, frankly. And I would say bring more of Elder Hinckley back. Into your humble humor. Don't take yourself too seriously. You're not perfect. Yes, you have revelation, you have inspiration, but let's keep it honest, let's keep it real, let's be down to earth. And I think members resonate with that.

They do. He said with a dedication, Ian, he said a couple of things. He said, first of all, I don't buy green bananas anymore. And I feel like the last leaf on the tree in a whirlwind. He was making reference to his age.

I remember exactly those words from him, yeah.

He was so down to earth. I've been to his home, and we've got friends up in that part of Salt Lake City. I forget what neighborhood it is, but she's President Hinckley's brother's daughter. So President Hinckley was her uncle. And you'll like this little story. My son Johnny was over in Utah, and Helen said to him, "Uncle Gordon's coming." This is when he was running the church, not as the prophet, but as the standing counselor. And he said, "Uncle Gordon's coming to church this weekend. Would you like to meet him?" And Johnny said, "Yeah, that would be wonderful." So she introduced Johnny, to President Hinckley, and he said, 'Oh, nice to meet you, Johnny. Where are you from?' And he said, 'I'm from Scotland.' He said— and remember, at the time, there would have been 1,500 stakes in the church— and he said to Johnny, 'Which stake are you from?' Johnny said, 'The Paisley stake.' And without missing a heartbeat, he said, 'Oh, Peter Cameron.' Just like that.

Just Peter, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was that kind of a man.

He said, 'Johnny, Really is wonderful.

He knew his roots. He knew— yes, he knew his vulnerabilities.

Yeah, I agree. Wonderful. I think the— I know Jim wants to say something. I'll be— I'll be just one last comment. I think the church faces a number of challenges, Les. You know that. You know, the church is declining in Scotland. We all know that. Declining in the UK. Amalgamation of wards and stakes and branches. My old ward in Yorkshire has now been been pulled back into, back into World War I. And I think people like President Hinckley, I think if we get that kind of leadership today, and I don't know where it exists in the current lineup, you know, Elder Ballard sadly passed away, and that opens up an opportunity. I don't know who's going to fill that position, but I think the Church has got real challenges and facing lots and lots of issues doctrinally, historically, some of the teachings. Policies, et cetera, just the role of religion in life in general. You know, we're becoming more secular. Canada's becoming more secular. UK's certainly becoming more secular. That, that it's not just decline in, in activity in the church, it's declining interest in overall in religion. And I think there is an important role in religion for sure, but I think the church needs to be, uh, take a different, um, position and look and be more Elder Hinckley, you know, more tolerant, more humorous, less serious on some things. Let's be open, you know, let's be quicker to love, you know, slower to judge. Let's be more inclusive. Let's engage people. You know, I don't go anymore for good reason. We've got— we don't want to get into that on this conversation for sure, but there are real issues with the church. And I think until the church addresses these fundamental issues and challenges on a number of key fronts, it's going to continue to decline. And I think this economic component that you mentioned at the beginning, I think that's a factor in Scotland for sure. But there's other challenges that the church is facing. You know, it's got, I think if the church had $1 trillion, to your point, I would agree with that if it used it and used it more effectively, more efficiently, and more of it for the good. You know, to hang on to a treasury of $150 billion, which is what George is talking about, and frankly not to feed its own members in the Philippines, for example, children in the church active who can't afford to live. And the church is sat on a, you know, a war chest, they call it, $150 billion, and not to use more of it even for its own members. I think is an absolute tragedy. So, you know, yes, we can have this. I think it's good that you brought up this robustness that we need to have. We're having that right now. The church can do a lot more, be a lot better, be a lot stronger, be a better church. And I hope that in the future, leaders will come, you know, will step up in the church and see that in order to improve the church experience, it has to be more this kind of thing and this kind of collaborative. Mooring Elder Hinckley, I feel if Elder Hinckley, one last point, if he was at the helm, I think the church would look and behave somewhat differently, maybe not entirely, but somewhat differently than it is right now.

I'd like to just make one quick comment to all that you've said, Ian, and that is, and I know nothing about the reasons why you are where you are, but in my estimation, the church would benefit greatly with guys like you on the inside rather than the outside. And then you could call your podcast Inside and Inside, right?

You know, Leslie wouldn't let me. I couldn't stay in. The questions I had, I wasn't allowed to even talk about the essays. When I referenced the essays, I was shut down, right? I wasn't allowed to ask questions. Honest, faithful questions, right? The debate was shut down. It was closed. My ideas were shut off. I had to conform to a certain thinking. It's like what Jim said earlier, although said in jest, there's some truth to it. If Jim Bennett showed up at the Tabernacle Choir without a tie, okay, or wearing a blue shirt, or went to church with a blue shirt or no tie, you know, you would ask— people ask questions, you know, his life is going off track, or he's losing it, or whatever, right?

You have to conform. I'm waiting for an apostle to appear with this, and then I'll know that things are going to be— Exactly.

You see what I'm saying?

Let the records show that Les was stroking his beard.

Absolutely. Let's start apostleship. I'm up for that. Yeah. Yeah. But we're all saying the same thing, and I think that, you know, the church is going to be less focused on conforming, right? Prescribed every single thing in your life, et cetera, et cetera. And let's be more human. Let's bring the human side to it. Let's be, let's say, look, we are not perfect. We don't have all the answers. Let's just have an open, honest discussion about the issues of the church. Let's work together. And if it changes, Les, in the way we've talked about, I will come back. If there's a room, if there's a space for me, a room for me, someone like me to speak. Constructively and to add value, then absolutely. But right now, I've been cut off by almost, you know, 98% of the people that I know, I've known, have disconnected with them because I don't conform. I don't fit the mold anymore.

Anyway, in the same bucket.

Okay, over to you guys. Well, we are coming up, we We try to keep these around an hour and we've gone a little over, but I think it's, it's been worth it. This has been a really wonderful discussion, I think, and not the least of which is because, Les, I think your perspective is spot on and I very much appreciate you reaching out. It's such a delight to see you after all these years. I agree. And, you know, the Tab Choir was supposed to come over and sing in Scotland. Yeah. Before COVID hit. And you had messaged me that you had your tickets. And I, I want to make sure to do whatever I can. The Tab Choir has now changed its plans where— so we're doing a world tour in, in pieces. Yeah, we went to Mexico City and we all got diarrhea and we're going to the Philippines in February, but there is apparently someplace in the UK that is on the horizon, and I am desperate for it to be Scotland because I would love to see you in person and I'd love to have you and Marlon come and, and we'll see if we can't sneak Marlon at least into the alto section without telling anybody. Okay. So, yeah, but what one— I just want to tell one story that is not um, it's not nearly as robust as this, but we're talking about President Hinckley. And when he was in the First Presidency, he came and visited the USC ward, University of Southern California, while I was a student there. And I was a theater student with the intention of becoming a world-famous actor. Uh, that didn't seem to work out, but that's all right.

You're still trying.

There's that. They may, they may. You never know. You never know. But he decided for whatever reason that he was going to give a talk about the evils of Hollywood and the evils of the entertainment industry. And as he talked, I kept getting hotter and hotter and hotter under the collar. I was just so frustrated because I thought, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't understand. What, you know, he did— this is just— and so I was just furious with him as he was speaking. And afterward he came through, and it wasn't a formal— everybody shook his hand, but for whatever reason I found myself in the hallway and he shook my hand and he said, you look like a Bennett. And I said, I am a Bennett. He says, oh, wonderful. Well, what are you studying? And I tried to keep the venom out of my voice, but I said, well, I'm one of those evil, wicked theater actor types that you were talking about. And he looked at me and it just a twinkle in his eye. And all he said was, oh, well, there's always time to repent. He just walked on and completely disarmed me. Completely disarmed me. It was just so— it was I mean, it was a joke, but it was kind. It was just— he just had that spirit to him. And, you know, I really, as we've talked about all of this, I can tell all kinds of horror stories about some general authorities, but I can tell lovely stories as well. And that is the story of the church, is that we are all thrown together. Yeah. And we all have our weaknesses. We all have our problems. Recognizing that and not letting it stand in the way of our attempt to become more like Christ is, I think, one of the great challenges of discipleship. And I think both of you have modeled that throughout your lives in wonderful ways that are inspiring to me and I think will be inspiring to the people who listen to this podcast. So with that said, we will conclude another episode here and Thank you again very much, Les, for, for coming on with us.

I've been delighted to be with both of you.

Yeah, and you, Les, it's an honor. You're an amazing guy. I, I just have so much love and respect for you. I'm so grateful that we spent this time together. Thank you for being here today.

Thank you so much. And thank everybody for listening to Inside Out.