All Things Tim Ballard

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. I'm here with the masterful Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I'm good. I'm feeling masterful. Maybe, maybe not.

Well, we're going to be talking about masterful heroism or the absence thereof in this, in this podcast.

This is— That makes sense.

I mean, we are now— events have overtaken us and the entire Mormon world, as well as the world at large, is being roiled by these wild allegations against Tim Ballard, the founder of Operation Underground Railroad, who has long been a darling of the conservative movement, a darling of the, the church. He's got all of these books that he's written for Deseret Book that hypothesize that Abraham Lincoln and George Washington were visited by the angel Moroni, among other things. And his, his Operation Underground Railroad was the subject for a fictionalized biography of him called Sound of Freedom that took the summer box office by storm and was a surprise hit, as the newspapers call it. But it wasn't a surprise to his, his loyalists and his followers because they are very, very loyal indeed. And he's had a widespread impact that has made him beloved by people in and out of the church. And these last few days have just been— I mean, the words you used to describe it are train wreck. Is that what you'd call it?

It is an absolute train wreck. You know, there are no winners in this. I think it's bad for Tim Ballard's profile, and I think it's an absolute disaster for the church. Another own goal.

Well, you had said you've done some research on this in preparation for this podcast, that you've got kind of the high-level bullet points of how this all works. Should we go over those?

So I don't know how— you mentioned at the beginning events have overtaken us. I don't know how anything can happen to the church without our blessing, our permission. I think we supposed to be in the knowledge of everything, but, uh, I'm, I'm joking, of course. But, uh, yeah, events are truly extraordinary, and this is an absolute train wreck, uh, for the church. Um, so from my research, um, and I've got some high-level bullet points here, and, and I'm driven, uh, by some advice I was given many, many years ago in business to follow the money. If you follow the money and you follow the concept of gain, then usually you can get to the bottom of things. So I've been looking at that. So I think there are a few things at play here. Tim Ballard's association with the OUR organization that he, I think he co-founded, his activism to save trafficked children, which is a good cause. You know, OUR stands for Operation Underground Railroad, is an anti-trafficking group. And I can't speak to the work that they've done, but from what I'm reading, it's, it's really important work. There's been a movie being created called Sound of Freedom, which is a depiction, I think, of part or sections of Tim Ballard's life about rescuing trafficked children. I watched the trailer of that. Looks like a great movie. It's had some success. The church association with the movie and for the potential you know, what's the potential for the church to gain from the movie? Does the church gain anything from its association with the movie? Uh, what was that gain? Does that mean more converts? Does that mean the movie gives the church more exposure to a worldwide audience? Um, you know, in media, in the age of the internet, it's important to stay relevant. The church continues to struggle to remain relevant, and, and how does it do that? Does the film and its association with Tim Ballard, does it, uh, uh, support that need for relevancy? Tim Ballard's position on and relationship with Donald Trump, how does that play into this, if anything? I was reading that in the Salt Lake Tribune. There's a— he's got some views on Donald Trump, relationship with Donald Trump. Speculation, speculation around Tim Ballard's interest in running for Utah Republican Mitt Romney's soon-to-be vacant seats, again referencing the Tribune there. The allegations of sexual misconduct against Imbala and his departure from the organization. I think that's a, a really big factor there. Past relationship with Elder Ballard, the Apostle. What was that relationship? Was it business? Was it some kind of joint venture, some kind of strategic alliance? I think the problem here, or the issue here, the confusion issue, is that they've got the last names. I think that'd be quite confusing about all of this. The church's official statement, which is now removed, distancing itself and disavowing from, uh, um, Tim Ballard and the work that Tim Ballard has done. And the removal of the church statements like Save the Children, Tim Ballard, and Operation Underground Railroad, um, link is now not working. And there's been other, uh, articles removed by the church. So it is an absolute disaster. And for both individuals and certainly for the church. Well, there's some of my high-level thoughts.

No, that's good. I mean, I think that frames all of it. So I had pulled off of Twitter for a number of reasons. And when this story broke, I couldn't help myself and I went back on Twitter.. And I've been following all of this for the past 3 days up close and personal. I've had some very interesting conversations, uh, with people who are very close to this investigation, and I don't want to give away any names on that, so I'm going to be somewhat vague. But, uh, uh, there's some insights into this that I think are, are, are kind of fascinating, and I confess You keep talking about how this is a train wreck and now how it's— I have to say, I have not had this much schadenfreude since Donald Trump was first indicted. The worst elements of the church who post on social media, particularly on Twitter, worship Tim Ballard as a god. And that, that is not an exaggeration because all of these people who ostensibly claim to be Latter-day Saints, um, are now taking issue with the church in order to defend Tim Ballard. You know, the church issued this statement. The, the initial statement was issued to Vice an online publication that has rep— I mean, that's the first thing that makes a lot of these people furious. Glenn Beck, who's one of the most prominent Latter-day Saints out there, um, and has publicly aligned himself with the far-right extreme of American politics and of religious politics. You know, he's, he's a disciple of Cleon Skousen and other far-right people that— anyway, that's kind of a rabbit hole. But Glenn Beck posted a lengthy thread just beating up on the church and defending Tim Ballard. How dare Tim Ballard be indicted by the church and be publicly excommunicated like this? And the first thing he said was, "How dare the church release any news to Vice because Vice is such a liberal rag and hates the church and all of this." And it's so bizarre to watch people online insist, "Well, clearly since the church didn't publish this on their website and they only did it in response to Vice," This is fake. This is some rogue church operative operating without the Brethren's instructions, just going out there and posting a false statement. And it's such a laughable, ridiculous thing to say because several other news organizations picked up the statement. And that wasn't enough because one of the organizations was the Salt Lake Tribune. Oh, and the Salt Lake Tribune is this terrible anti-Mormon rag. And all of this kind of nonsense. You know, the guy I debated a few weeks ago called Peggy Fletcher Stack, the religion reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune, a godbeite hack. I had to go look up what that even meant. But so the idea is, okay, this is a false statement that's going around. Well, one of the news organizations that published the statement was the Deseret News. The Deseret News, which is owned lock, stock and barrel by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For 6 years I wrote editorials, unsigned house editorials for the Deseret News, and I've seen how the sausage is made over there. And Hal Boyd, who is now the editor of the Deseret News, when I was working there, for a good chunk of the time, he was the editorial director. So he's gotten a bump up since then. But Hal Boyd tweeted, yeah, we saw the statement and we called the church to confirm it, you know, and then the Deseret News published this statement. So there are still people online saying this is a false statement. The church would never do this. Tim Ballard himself has said that and is saying that and is insisting that this statement is not, is not really from the church. This is somebody rogue going rogue. It's just so too absurd beyond words. And, and where the schadenfreude is coming in for me is that the people defending Tim Ballard now are the people who attack me repeatedly and publicly for being LGBTQ friendly. And how dare I be this sort of cafeteria Mormon because I'm not willing to sort of embrace all this and you need to get behind the church. And, you know, and my position— I don't want to get into my position on that. But I think they misrepresent it. But the biggest crime that they accuse Jim Bennett of is cafeteria Mormonism, is I'm picking and choosing, I'm a pragmo, I'm not nearly pure enough to be a true member of the church. And now these people— and whenever you would post anything prior to a few days ago, that took any issue with Tim Ballard, the hashtag they would use is pedo ally. Clearly, if you don't like Tim Ballard, you are an ally of pedophiles. And it's such a repugnant position to take. And it's all wrapped up in Trumpism. It's all wrapped up in all of this garbage. And now when the church has come out in opposition to their hero, suddenly it's the church that they're throwing under the bus. And I'm looking at all of these hypocrites accusing me of being a cafeteria Mormon who are being far more critical of the church than I have ever been. And, and yet because it violates— it's kind of goes in line with the stuff about vaccines. You know, the church asked people to get vaccinated, urged people to get vaccinated, and people found their way around that and said, oh, the church is wrong on this one. Uh, demanded that people would come to church masked, and, and, uh, oh well, you know, President Nelson is only speaking as a man, and all of that kind of stuff. The cafeteria Mormonism on that side of the equation is on full display. And I'd be lying if I didn't say I was enjoying some of it. So it's like a train wreck. And sometimes when you're watching a train wreck, you can't take your eyes off it. And that's where I am. Am I a terrible person?

No, not at all. Not at all. You look at a lot of rank and file member opinion flip and flop over politics, you know, over things like this. You've got their own, you know, people got their own opinions. And Tim Ballard clearly has got a lot of, you know, followers. I mean, the movie's successful relatively. He was part of an organization that was doing some good work. There's some allegations around his conduct and his departure from the organization. I think there's allegations at this stage, but very serious allegations at the same time. Well, go ahead. Yeah, what was that relationship with Elder Ballard? If you look at the, the statement that, uh, they made that they've removed now, it said, uh, this is part— this is from a screenshot that from a statement that has been now been removed by the church. Quote, once it became clear Tim Ballard had betrayed their friendship, speaking about Elder Ballard, Russell M. Ballard, through the unauthorized use of President Ballard's name for Tim Ballard's personal advantage and activity, What is that? What was the advantage? What was the activity? That's very important questions, I think. Regarded as morally unacceptable, President Ballard withdrew his association according to the faith statements. Then Ballard never authorized his name or the name of the church to be used for Tim's personal or financial interests. They've removed that statement and they removed, uh, other, uh, statements relating to Tim Ballard's conversation piece on saving children. And then you've got this video of Tim Ballard appearing outside of a temple building, it looks like, over the weekend.

It wasn't a temple. It was— it's in Boston and it's some kind of Revolutionary War monument.

I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure where he was speaking from. I thought it was the grounds of the temple. Thanks for clarifying that. He says here, just Tim Ballard, everything you hear is not true. That's a remarkable statement in itself, that everything you hear is not true. He said, President Ballard is like a grandfather to me. Never in my life have I ever used his name to raise money, to make a business deal. It never happened. And so, and then you mentioned Glenn Beck. Glenn Beck talks about the church essentially excommunicating Tim Ballard in public, a public excommunication. Tim Ballard talks about, can you imagine the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would publicly condemn one of its members without talking to their bishop or stake presidents? Is it possible? It is, it is, it is a mess. But, you know, those questions about Where's the gain? You know, what was the relationship? What were they doing? What were those activities? What were the business deals? What did the church hope to gain from this relationship and from the movie? And so, and where's the money? You know, follow the money. Is anyone making any financial gain for, for this, either immediate or in the, uh, in the long term?

Oh, massive financial gains. I mean, Tim Ballard is drawing a, a 7-figure salary, or was before he was removed from being CEO of Operation Underground Railroad. And Operation Underground Railroad, I mean, the news that has been continuing to come out, Operation Underground Railroad is joining the church to a large degree in condemning Tim Ballard, almost as if they know something we don't. And I think there's a lot more that is going to come out. Vice has said they're going to continue to release stories, that, that there's still more information. But since the church issued that condemnation, and there's a phrase in that that's actually really interesting, uh, and other activities that were morally unacceptable, uh, at first reading you would assume that that has to do with with the relationship with Elder Ballard. But what seems to be clear to me is that that's covering more of Tim Ballard's behavior that isn't referenced in that first Vice article but is referenced in the subsequent Vice article. It talks about the fact that Tim Ballard was getting women to fly across the world to engage in these operations, but they had to pose as husband and wife. And in order to fool the traffickers, they had to sleep together, they had to shower together. And I'm just thinking, have you ever seen the movie True Lies with Arnold Schwarzenegger?

Yes, I have. Yes.

There's a guy in that who's a used car salesman. Bill Paxton plays him.

Yeah.

And, uh, he pretends to be a secret agent and demands that women sleep with him. I mean, Tim Ballard was apparently, or allegedly, uh, the real life version of this. I'm thinking, how stupid, Tim, do you have to be to think that anyone would believe that a trafficker is paying attention to whether or not you're showering with your wife? You know, I mean, the other comparison, he's being compared to Bill Paxton from True Lies, and he's also being compared to John C. Bennett, who is of no relation to me, by the way. But John C. Bennett was the assistant president of the church in Nauvoo and the first mayor of Nauvoo and was going around to women saying that, hey, Joseph Smith is doing this and we're going to do this. We're going to be spiritual wives. You're going to be my spiritual wife, which means you don't have to leave your husband or anything else, but spiritually you're bound to me and we can therefore legitimately have sex. And Joseph Smith was very publicly opposed to that. And given the scholars you want to go to, more sympathetic scholars to Joseph Smith say that he saw plural marriage as a practice very different from spiritual wifery. But that's a discussion for another day. The point is that John C. Bennett was absolutely doing exactly the same thing, going and saying, you know, for a higher purpose, for a higher calling, you need to sleep with me. And Tim Ballard, there are 7 women who refused to use their names publicly, but he's facing Operation Underground Railroad made it very clear that there has been an extensive investigation into these allegations, and it makes it very clear that there seems to be some substance to them. So Tim Ballard is, you know, everybody wants to believe the Sound of Freedom story. You know, this is a hero that is rescuing children from child trafficking. And even after all of this news has broken, people are saying, well, well, how? He's a hero. You know, Kwaku Al, one of the Midnight Mormons who I've met on several occasions, is still— has a thread on Twitter where he talks about the fact that what Tim Ballard has done is so noble and so wonderful that to worry about his private behavior is like to condemn Martin Luther King for having an affair, having several affairs on his wife. And he's still sort of buckling in that he's a hero because of how great it is that what he's doing. Well, actual legitimate government-sanctioned organizations that fight human trafficking despise Operation Underground Railroad. And the more and more— I mean, the more I've learned about Operation Underground Railroad, the more sketchy it is because these guys are going in with no authorization and doing these, these big sting sort of things.. And then once they scare away the traffickers, the, the, the, there's absolutely no, um, no follow-up with the victims. And they all find themselves in human trafficking, uh, very quickly, shortly thereafter. These other organizations say that Operation Underground Railroad not only isn't helping, it's actively hurting. It's a vigilante mess with no follow-through and no accountability that's making it harder for real trafficking organizations to fight human trafficking. So, so I had felt that way prior to these allegations breaking. So I was always kind of suspect of Tim Ballard. But since these allegations have broken, it's, it's just astonishing to me that, that anybody would, uh, would see it otherwise. Um, the church doesn't issue those kinds of statements unless there is information demonstrating, uh, that there's some serious threat to the reputation of the church. And the fact that Tim Ballard— I mean, everybody's yelling, oh, but he was, he was about to run for Romney's seat, and so this is the church getting involved in politics. Yeah, damn right it is. It absolutely is. I think the church is terrified of having a senator that's aligned with QAnon conspiracy theories and that is clearly a charlatan and a fraud representing the church. And this has the potential. You're right that it's, it's a train wreck. It has the potential to split the tracks. I think there is a large chunk of conservative Mormons that are furious. And when they have to choose between Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard, they're trying very hard not to have to, but eventually they're going to have to. And I think there's a big contingent that's willing to choose Tim Ballard and go in that direction. I also think that phrase, the morally unacceptable behavior, I think that phrase suggests that there has quietly already been church discipline for Tim Ballard. I'd be willing to bet money that Tim Ballard, at the time of this recording, is no longer a member of the church. And so I've had some people go, oh, what are you talking about? I was like, well, Trust me on this one. I mean, I've seen some stuff up close and personal. This reminds me to some degree of Hyrum W. Smith, who we've talked about on this, this show, who was a former mission president and was a very high-profile guy. He was my dad's boss at the company that is now FranklinCovey. And he was excommunicated very quietly for, for adultery. And it wasn't until the newspaper in St. George decided that that was a newsworthy story that anybody found out. But the church really does not talk publicly about church discipline. And, and so it would not surprise me that this has happened quietly. And, but, uh, it's just, it's, I, I can't take my eyes off it. I, I just, I'm following it all because I think in the long term this is actually a process that the church needs to go through, and this will be healthy for the church because the church, in order to disavow Tim Ballard, uh, is at least to some degree being forced to disavow political extremism and right-wing extremism particularly. And they've been very reluctant to do that because they know that these are the members that are paying tithing and that are not going to be shaken by anything the church does. But I think they will be shaken if they have to choose between their two heroes. No man can serve two masters. And so I— do you guys get a sense of that kind of political extremism even up in Canada? Or is this a strictly American phenomenon?

Well, we have our own political messes up here in Canada. Um, Canadian politics is an absolute mess, um, you know, for similar and for different reasons, for sure. Um, as I've listened to you and as I, as I try to make sense of this, of this mess, I'm reminded of that famous, uh, quote from Shakespeare. I know you like Shakespeare. Oh, what a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive. Yes, it is an absolute mess. So I was listening to each of your points there, and when you were just talking about the behavior of Tim Ballard and his advice to those women to behave like a spouse, you know, to shower, to sleep together, I, I, I couldn't help— my mind automatically went to Joseph Smith and some of the tactics that he used. I— my mind went to some of the behavior of some of the early apostles. And, and we know that there were quite a few scandals associated with church leaders, or some scandals at least, church leaders, church members during the restoration of the church. You know, people got excommunicated, there were fractions breaking off, people held different positions on different things. You didn't have the same social media, the internet, of course, back then, but it was equally devastating for the church in many ways, in very, very different ways. If Tim Ballard did in fact abuse his position and take advantage of those women, that needs to be properly investigated and prosecuted. He's left the, our organization for a reason. What, you know, we've got, we've heard allegations, what, you know, why is he left? What's behind that? Your point about the church protecting its reputation. When I was interviewed by Elder Oaks for the stake presidency calling, the first question he asked me was about my past, my background, is anything in my background that could impact the church negatively? That was the very first question. I was quite surprised by that. But the church's reputation is absolutely everything. Its credibility is everything because everything hangs on that. Its position, its financial status, its status as a faith, et cetera, status as an organization of integrity. It all hangs on that. And, and if these things that Tim Ballard has been accused of found to be true, and to your other point, that the, our organization is found to be suspect and not credible and involved in inappropriate activities or not the organization that it claims to be, and the church is tied to that, then the impact on the church relationship, uh, rather reputation and its relationship with various, uh, organizations and its members is, is, is put, is put at risk. And I, I, I, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tim Ballard has or is in the process of being excommunicated. I think we'll hear about that in the next, uh, week or so. Uh, presume at some point if that happens that Tim Ballard would be notified that he's no longer a member of the church. I think the church has got itself into a, uh, a real mess here. And I think that's the danger of the church when it aligns itself with organizations. I think what surprises me You think, you think that the brethren would have some gift of discernment, that they would do some due diligence, some research on the, our organization and investigate the organization to determine if it's legitimate, if it's honest, if it's a credible organization, and only then team or associate yourself with the organization. But if we learn that the organization is not credible, that if it's not an organization of integrity, if we learn that, and we could have— no, we, we— people knew that before the church was involved in it, uh, had association with it. Why didn't the church perform its own due diligence on the, on the organization and on Tim Ballard? I think it, it, it was— I think it's been blindsided. I don't think it expected this. I don't think it, um, was really prepared for this. He then put out a series of disavowing statements. It's redacted those, it's pulled those off. That in itself, Jim, looks pretty bad. I felt, you know, church member, I'm not in the church anymore, but I was a church member and that, and I'm reading this stuff on the church website. And then suddenly it's been removed. That looks suspect. I'm thinking, you know, they're not talking internally. Who's putting these things out? Who's in charge there. It's like the lights are on, but no one's home. They're not talking to each other about coordinating the, you know, the information for the press, releasing out, you know, statements, and then, and then removing them. It looks disorganized.

The statement that they released was a statement in response to a question from Vice. It was not ever— it's never been posted on the church's website. It's not that they posted it and removed it. I mean, that's one of the things that the conspiracy theorists are complaining about is that, oh, well, this has never been on the church's website, so it's not a real statement. And I think people are thinking that it's— I mean, the church, when there are news events, the church has been known frequently to issue a public statement and put it on their website. But this was different in that they received an inquiry, they received a question, and they answered. And, and so the conspiracy theorists are saying, see, it was never really an official church statement. No, that's not true. What it was was a response to a specific inquiry. So, I mean, I don't know how much of a difference that makes, but the thing that the church is removing quietly and embarrassingly are legions of talks, legions of articles that referenced Operation Underground Railroad, that referenced Tim Ballard. There was a talk at BYU-Idaho where Elder Ballard talks about all these great insights he's gotten from Tim Ballard about Nephi, which is particularly embarrassing since it's come to light that Operation Underground Railroad produced over 10,000 pages of, of notes from a psychic who claimed to be in touch with the spirit of Nephi, that Nephi was talking through her to Operation Underground Railroad to give them information about where to find trafficked children. It's— I mean, you can't write this stuff. This is so much worse and stranger than fiction. Yeah, so you raise the question, uh, where's the spirit of discernment? And it's a question that gets raised whenever the church embarrasses itself very badly. It's usually— it's often raised in reference to, you know, throughout the entire Mark Hoffman, uh, scheme.

You know, exactly the same thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have that picture of President Kimball looking at the fake Anton letter with a magnifying glass that is surrounded by apostles, uh, where's the gift of discernment? Uh, I, I have a lot of charity and compassion for the brethren on things like this, to be honest, with regard to that question, because, uh, I believe this demonstrates that the brethren, the apostles, the prophet are willing to take you at your word. I mean, that being, being willing to accept people without distrust is one of the better weaknesses to have, if you will. I mean, it demonstrates that they're not cynical. They're not They're not looking. So it makes it easier to take advantage of. But you do wonder, okay, so, but where is the Lord in this? I mean, we have all these scriptures that talk about discernment. Why doesn't this rise to the level of having the kind of red clanging, hey, warning, danger, discernment, this is not somebody you ought to trust.

A couple thoughts to that. I'll go back to a point you made earlier, and I'm gonna respond to that last point. There's another side to what you've just said on that last point. A few months ago, I made a statement or a comment that was not correct, you know, that the church had put out an official statement on this whole situation. And so why did I say that? Why was that? You know, why did I come to that thought? It's because there's so much misinformation and disinformation out there. You know, it's hard to know what's true, what's not, you know, what are allegations or whatnot. If you look at, for example, the, um, article Saving Children by Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad that was, was, um, referenced in a, um, uh, response on the church website and you click on that link, you get page not found. 'Cause I've just, uh, just clicked on it just now. And then you read in, uh, you know, in, in various sources that the church has, uh, issued, um, removed several articles on its website that mentioned self-styled anti-slavery activists, et cetera. And so I appreciate you clarifying that. There's a lot of, you know, misinformation out there and, and disinformation. So, and it, and it's so messy, so complicated. It's hard to know what's, what's what. The other point, that last point you were saying about the church leaders My interpretation of what you said is that church leaders, when they hear someone's story or they speak with rank-and-file members or anyone in the church and they hear about an experience, they take it at face value and, and believe the individual and think the individual is sincere. And, and I think there is some truth to that depending on which apostle or general authority that you're, you're speaking with. I've worked with, rather met with Elder Ballard a few times in the past, couple of times, at least 2 or 3 times. One was when we were on a mission in, before you came out, it was July 1987, Edinburgh. It was the changeover from President Dunn to President Banks. This is like 2 months before you came out, 3 months. And I had a brief conversation with him. I found him to be very businesslike. I didn't dislike him or like him necessarily. Quite professional and, um, quite businesslike and very focused on— it was over the missionary program for the church— and very focused on proselyting efforts at that time. And I think he'd been involved in that his entire life. Um, so yes, I do think for the most part the General Authorities do take people's comments and thoughts and trust them that they, you know, they're speaking the truth. However, the other side to that is that the apostles themselves have not been truthful or honest with the church members. I remember of that interview, which I would love to get into in more detail, 'cause it really, really bothered me. I played it a lot. The interview between Elder Holland and the BBC reporter journalist that interviewed him in Salt Lake many years ago. Yep. And so I've listened to that, I've watched that, and I have real concerns over that. And so has the church leadership, you know, at the, the apostle level, have they always been honest and truthful and transparent and open? No. Are they disclosing all of their interests and their political, uh, positions on things? No. And, and, and I don't know if they, if they have to do that. I, I think overall the church is, it's in a bit of a a bit of a quandary because you've got a seemingly sizable number of people who are following Tim Ballard and supporting this individual, regular rank-and-file members who have subscribed to Tim Ballard's work. I don't know if they're aware of his prophetic experiences with the psychic and Nephi. I find that Just weird, frankly. Yeah, it's just, it's the kind of stuff that in the UK, when they hear about the Mormon Church being a cult, the UK, because the church relationship outside of the US is, it's, it's very different in other countries with the general public. But the general public, many general public outside of the US, including the UK, see the church as a cult, strange cult, weird organization. And they'll read about this if they come across it, and it'll just confirm their suspicions. You know, if, if you're a missionary and you're in the UK, for example, and you're, and you're teaching someone and they come across the, this material, it, it looks just weird, cult, strange that the church at some point through Elder Ballard was associated with Jim Ballard. Jim Ballard's had these visions, uh, Moroni, or some spiritual experiences about Moroni, Nephi. He met with a psychic, this, this, um, in touch with the, um, you know, former Nephi, Moroni, etc. Moroni visiting, was it, um, George Washington?

Yeah, well, the church has been perpetuating that narrative through Deseret Book for years because he's written books. Yes, the Lincoln hypothesis, the Washington hypothesis. That interject Moroni, or apparently Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves because the Book of Mormon told him to. And other— I haven't read the book, so I am not an authority on the specifics of them other than the fact that real historians just think they're ridiculous.

Yeah, it's absurd. I think I mentioned there was an article in the Ensign that Moroni, or Nephi, I can't remember which one it was. It was Moroni, I think, visited George Washington, Abraham Lincoln. Sorry, let me get this story right. Abraham Lincoln and George Washington appeared, sorry, to Wilford Woodruff, I think it was, in the article in the Ensign in one of the temples going way back. And that the message in the article I read as a missionary, that George Washington and Abraham Lincoln had in fact accepted the gospel on the other side. And they appeared as spirits to— I think it was Wilford Woodruff, actually.

That's correct.

No, I'm 95% sure.

That is, uh, that is church. The church continues to teach that.

I remember reading that in the Ensign.

There's a mural in the St. George Temple, at least there was, uh, showing Wilford Woodruff standing before the founding fathers of the United States, uh, so depicting that vision. So yeah, That, that is absolutely something the church has taught and continues to teach. And so I can see how that can sound just as strange as Tim Ballard talking to Nephi.

I think what you've got here, you've got Tim Ballard, who at some point was involved in good work at a certain level in a certain way through the organization. At some point, things went wrong there with the organization. Its behavior, its claims, the extent to which it provides a level of services. We've talked earlier about that the organization could be perhaps getting in, in the way of the incredible work that the, the government agencies and the law enforcement agencies are actually involved in, that the organization is distracting potentially from the work that they do. So there's some questions about the organization. I, from what I could read, I think Tim Ballard's involvement and some of the efforts there were credible. But then he has— his behavior has changed. He's been involved or alleged to be involved in inappropriate behavior. He's now left the organization and the church is now frontally trying to distance itself from Tim Ballard and from the organization. There's some politics going on in the background. And, and it, and it's a real mess. I, I think, uh, you just challenge me on this, but I think the church has done the right thing in coming out and dissing itself from this individual and this organization, or trying to do that. I, I think it's very messy. I think it would be even messier had it continued, or had it not come out and try to disavow, distance yourself from these individual organizations. I think if this is a train wreck, this is a train wreck where some of the carriages have come off, but not all the carriages have come off. I think if they'd have continued without responding, then you would have the actual rail itself and all the carriages would've come off. It'd have been a complete schism. I think it'd been a disaster because the reputation of the church would be, could be potentially damaged parts of it beyond repair. I mean, it takes decades, Jim Bennett, to build a reputation in business as an individual, in the church. You know, the church has been trying to distance itself from real problematic historical issues, you know, blacks in the priesthood, polygamy, polyandry, and a whole litany of real serious problems that the church, uh, were engaged, involved in, uh, at the, during the restoration of the church, has tried to reposition itself and has been very successful mostly in trying to reshape itself, restructure itself, reorganize itself, and, and build what is generally a pretty decent reputation for doing mostly good work. And that's coming from a, you know, a perspective of somebody that, you know, I was in the church, I'm not in the church now. I see it from both sides. And I suspect that is the view of many people outside the church, that the church is generally a force for the good, notwithstanding history and, you know, other, you know, moments like the Hoffman event and other scandalous moments. I think the church is still pretty much intact. This damages or has the potential to damage the church reputation. And, and, and, and, you know, when you got politics involved and you've got Glenn Beck and, and these other media analysts, et cetera, involved in the, and some rank and file members supporting or siding with, with Tim Ballard, then I think the church has done the right thing. It's done what it could, as much as it could. But I still get the impression internally within the, within the church that they're not talking to each other, that they're not coordinating their responses. And I think they could do a lot better job in terms of how they coordinate their messaging and, and, um, and coming out officially with, with a statement. I think the church now has to come out with a statement that's clearly written. I think the lawyers have got to get involved in writing this. I think that's, um, that's often the way they go. I think that message is going to be absolutely on point. I think, uh, Balint Szymbal is going to be excommunicated, if he hasn't been already. The church is going to learn lessons from this, perhaps, and do a better job at its due diligence. Just don't— it clearly fell down, uh, big time in terms of its due diligence on this individual, on this organization. But there's still questions remaining about the relationship between Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard in the past that we probably will never get answers to.

Well, it seems to me pretty clear that their relationship was close enough that the church was becoming uncomfortable with it. You know, you say, is it, you think the church has done the right thing? And I think you're right, they have. I think they've been backed into doing the right thing. I think the last thing in the world they wanted to do was step into the middle of this, but found themselves with no other viable choice. One of the things that a lot of the apologists for Tim Ballard are saying is, okay, during the same time period, John Delenn is even saying this, during the same time period, David McConkie, who was a grandson of Bruce R. McConkie— I was worried that he was maybe a son of Joseph Fielding McConkie, my mission president, but he's not. He's from another part of that line. He was a stake president, and he was just arraigned on charges of sexual molestation of a minor. And so John DeLynn and a few others are saying, Well, so why isn't the church condemning David McConkie? Why isn't the church being consistent in its condemnation of sinners? And I think, I think that misses the point of why the church felt they had to make this statement. I was sort of backed into the corner is because everything that was going to impact the church involves public behavior. Of public figures. David McConkie is not a public figure. What he did is horrific. Nobody is making the mistake of thinking that the church somehow endorsed or agreed with it. Yeah. And with Tim Ballard, you've got so much being joined at the hip. I mean, you have a picture— there's a picture that's circulating of Glenn Beck, Elder Ballard, and Tim Ballard standing arm in arm smiling to the cameras. Uh, you have all kinds of different things that Elder Ballard was doing with Tim Ballard, uh, and the church looked at all of this and said our public reputation is at stake. We— this was all done in public, it needs to be repudiated in public. So I think that's where the statement comes from. I think it was run up, down, and sideways, past lawyers, past apostles, past everybody. I don't think that they would go out on a limb like this if they didn't realize that they, A, they had to, and B, their position is solid enough that when everybody starts to scream, it's not going to collapse under, under its own weight. So, I mean, it's also interesting because you talk about meeting Elder Ballard. I've met Elder Ballard on several occasions. I talked about in our episode on politics, Elder Ballard publicly embarrassed me at a meeting of Latter-day Saint interns in Washington, D.C., when I asked him if the church was going to take a position on gay marriage. A political position on gay marriage in other countries. And he got visibly angry and said, no, and we didn't take a political position here. This was a moral issue. This wasn't a political issue. The church never takes political issues. I mean, just made me feel about that big. But Elder Ballard's sister served a mission with us in Scotland. Sister Keddington was Elder Ballard's sister.

Yes.

And, and I got to know her very well. She came to my missionary homecoming when I got home. I'm not sure if she has passed away or not. I know her husband has, but Elder Ballard was also very close to my father and spoke at my father's funeral. And so I've had a number of opportunities to talk to him. I even before I've talked to him, When I was in the MTC, they filed us into the Marriott Center to hear Elder Ballard address BYU students. And his message was, "You need to be married within 6 months of your mission or you're not honoring your priesthood." And they're, "Oh no, he didn't really say that, did he?" I'm like, "I'm sorry, but the ripples of 'Oh!' through the crowd were unlike almost anything I'd ever heard before. And so I kind of was not really an Elder Ballard fan for a while there, although his relationship with my father has sort of tamped that down, and I now feel more affection for him. And in fact, now that he is in the twilight of his life and is very clearly physically facing major challenges that he's talked about in conference. I feel great sympathy for him for having been, been sucked into what is a very charismatic con. And, you know, I talk about, okay, he's talking about this in conference or he's talked about his health challenges in conference. Do you think that anybody, Elder Ballard or anybody else, is going to make reference to this in 10 days when they— the first session of conference launches?

No, I know. I don't. I don't think they want to give this any more oxygen than it has already. I think it will have to come out with a formal general statement. I think it should. I think it will. I think there's been a conversation between Elder Oaks and Elder Ballard and some of the senior apostles I think it's become clear that Elder Ballard's behavior, you know, by associating himself in public with Glenn Beck like this and Jim Bennett and whatever they were doing in the past, it obviously, he met them because it was advantageous to do so. And that was in the public. And you're right, by the way, when the church is responding specifically because these people are in the public domain, when you're not in the public domain, you know, like Mia Liu, for example, the church, not getting involved, obviously, with, you know, we're not in the public domain and we're not really potential, you know, risk, if you like, to the church. But I think Elder Ballard has got egg on his face. I think the people at the top, Elder Oaks, will be saying in certain language that, you know, you've really put the church in a very difficult position. We're going to have to put out a formal statement. I think it will— we don't reference it in general conference, etc. There might be some strategic spiritual language around this. In fact, I think there will be, you know, where they— there's an issue or a problem and the church quotes a scripture or uses a story or an experience which kind of alludes to this kind of thing. Now that we're living in the last days and Satan has got a hold of the hearts of men, the hearts of men are waxing cold, and some spiritual scriptural reference to a character in the Book of Mormon or the Bible that wasn't honest or was deceptive, or that they tried to mislead the church apostles back in the New Testament. I suspect that is going to happen or could happen. I think it should happen, and that the church members will, will see that, interpret that as being relevant to this situation here. I'm looking at some of the comments that people have made on Twitter about the situation here. And some of the comments were about against Elder Ballard was, I will support and sustain you in your calling, but I don't respect you. Another commentator wrote, hiding behind your calling to punch down a man fighting trafficking makes you a suspect, which is an extraordinary comment. Another one remarked, you need to make a public apology for your benighted behavior towards Tim Ballard. Your Ballard is morally unacceptable. You are a hypocrite. As I said before, so this is interesting. This individual's telling Elder Ballard he's a hypocrite and then goes on to say, I uphold you as a prophet, seer, and revelator, but I despise you as a man. Um, so it, it's, it's, it's splitting, uh, opinion across, you know, rank-and-file members. It's all over the internet. It's an absolute disaster. But again, I repeat, I think the church has done the right thing, whether it is— it was pressured to do so. Obviously it was pressured to do so, but I think it's going to come out of this intact. I think it's recoverable. I, I hope there's some lessons going to be learned internally, uh, within the church. I think they will be, they have to be. And the church is now going to be very— I think there's going to be an internal general authority level policy revise or revision, uh, if it's not, if it's not in place already. And it probably, probably is already, actually, for they're not stupid, but if they haven't got a policy around General Authorities, uh, certainly apostles associating too closely with individuals or giving, you know, meeting in public with individuals or organizations that could at some point one day come back and bite the church— if there isn't a policy in place about some guidance around that, I would be surprised because I think they'll be stupid not to have a policy. But I think they will write some kind of policy to say, look, be very, very careful, very shrewd, use due diligence, don't take people at face value. I think that's going to change. This is a watershed moment in many ways. It's— you liken this to the— what was your comment, Julie, about the Trump indictment? That's interesting that you, um, you compare it with that. I think it is a significant event, but it's going to blow over to some extent and the church will learn lessons. And I think it will come out intact. And if it does its plays count right, I think it will, could come out, um, looking Okay, it, it might lose some members. I don't think there's gonna be any major schisms or, you know, people breaking off and, and joining the Church of Jim Bennett, et cetera. Nothing like that. But again, it's another disastrous event that the church is now trying to recover from. And in, in some ways, it is its own worst enemy. Elder Ballard's really put the church in a very difficult position. And I think he's probably been told that very bluntly by Elder Oaks. He's probably the only person that would tell him that.

Well, I don't know how blunt anyone is behind the scenes. And I think you're right. I think that General Conference has a long tradition of General Authorities speaking not necessarily to the church as a whole, but rather to criticize other General Authorities, you know, subtweeting other General Authorities. I think you're probably going to see some of that this conference. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, long term, I don't see this having any kind of major impact on the church. It will blow over. I'm not as confident that it won't result in, in some schism, but I don't think it'll be a big enough schism that anyone's going to notice it statistically. Uh, what I hope this does is persuade the upper leadership of the church that we have a problem with right-wing political extremism in the church. Uh, I, I think they, they are aware of it, as I've said earlier. I think they're wary of doing anything about it because these extremists are also, to some degree, the most loyal members of the church, except when the church says something you don't like. Um, but, uh, I think that last conference's talk from President Nelson about being a peacemaker was sort of a, a gentle first volley in an attempt to, to get this problem under control. And as good as that talk was, and I think it was magnificent, it wasn't enough because it allowed enough wiggle room for people to think that President Nelson wasn't really talking to them. He was only talking to somebody else. So the Church, and the Church did that once before after the Charlottesville riots with neo-Nazis that President Trump called very, very fine people. After all of those, there was a woman in the church named Ila Stewart, and she went by the handle Wife with a Purpose. And she was a white supremacist, and she wanted to march at Charlottesville but wasn't able to do it, but cheered it on. And the church condemned the Charlottesville march, but did so in a very kind of Oh, racism is bad. Not white supremacy is bad, but racism is bad. And Ila Stewart took that statement and said, ah, see, the church is on my side because I'm not a racist. I just, I just favor whites. And so, and, and when the church realized that that statement hadn't made the point clear enough, came out with a second statement denouncing specifically white supremacy and, and the issues that were Charlotte. And that led Ila Stewart to leave the church. So I think that the last conference 6 months ago, we saw a first attempt to tame the raging beast of right-wing extremism in the church and online. And it wasn't enough. And now I think this event demonstrates that more needs to be done. And I am hopeful, although not confident, that we might hear some of that this conference, that that might even have been in the works prior to this event, that the brethren recognized that they didn't really tame the extremism with the peacemaker talk. And maybe more needs to be done. I am hopeful that that is the case. I think there's maybe a 25% chance that that will happen, which means there's a 75% chance that it won't. But it's interesting to get your perspective on this, particularly from how far removed you are geographically from what's going on. But I think the church should be heartened by the fact that Ian Wilkes thinks they're going to be okay.

I think they're going to be fine. I don't think there will be an attempt this time around at least to deal with that right-wing extremism, conservatism, republicanism in the church. I think that the US is so polarized now with politics, with Trump, Biden situation, the judiciary, and the seemingly split down the middle on, on, on two— the two sides there. I think the timing of getting involved or trying to tackle right now that right now in the current climate is extremely risky. I don't think there will be an attempt at this stage anyhow until after the next election to deal with this. I think, you know, feelings of fraud Feelings are heightened politically. There's a lot of, you know, issues in the US politically, which is happening, you know, migration and economics and G20 and China, India. There's a big fallout with Canada, India now. And the geopolitical landscape with the US is often complex, but it's even more complex now. There's so many big events happening in the world and, and, and, and the impact that's happening on US politics, etc., and the division with majority of the population within the United States. Does the church address that right now? Uh, do they address— I mean, look at the thing with, uh, you know, what's going on with the conversation around abortion, migration, all these major issues which are very divisive and the different positions that the church members hold on that. I think the safe position— I, I think they do need to tackle it and the impact it's going to have on the church going forward, yes, but I don't think that's going to happen just yet. And I don't think they have a clear strategy on how to deal with it. I might be wrong, but I, I just don't think— if, if this event, this debacle, this fiasco, is anything to go by, it's clear the church is not as, as positioned, is not as sophisticated and, and not as discerning to be able to see the potential risks of, foresee the potential risks, because it's now involved in this absolutely absolute mess. Is it as sophisticated to tackle that issue, those right-wing conservative views right now. I think it wants to. I think it's got some part of the plan in place, but I don't think that plan is clearly defined yet. But I think they are working to, uh, I suspect they're actually working to develop that, but I don't think you'll hear anything on that this time around. That's, uh, that's a battle that they must fight, but not just yet.

All right, well, time will tell, see what they do in the future. But our time seems to be up, so So thank you all very much for listening. Please like and subscribe to our podcast. Until next time, we look forward to seeing you on Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you very much, Jim Bennett. Oh my God!