Are We The Baddies?

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes, um, I'm here with the magnanimous Mr. Jim Bennett.

Hello. I magnanimously welcome you as well to this latest episode because that's how magnanimous I am.

You are certainly magnanimous for sure. And, uh, I'm going to do a lot more research on big words and I, I'm gonna, uh, uh, in the future I'm gonna come with some big words and I, I'm, I'm be interested to see if you will know what those words are to describe you. So, because you're very good at the big words, and I thought I was good, but I need to do a little bit of training there, a little bit of research in there. But we'll, and we'll have, continue to have fun describing each other with these big words. Jim Bennett, it's so good to be with you. I always look forward to these conversations. What drives me is, you know, the need to help others in some way, in some form, in some fashion. I'm encouraged by the response we get from many of our listeners that the podcasts that we're doing are helpful in some form. Uh, we try to stay on track in terms of, you know, dealing with the church issues and the doctrine and the history and, and, um, those social aspects of the church. And of course, sometimes we move slightly outside of the main periphery of our scope of the podcast, which I think is also very good. And at times we talk about politics and we talk about politics because, and, and world affairs, because these things are important to us. Personally and our families. And we have people in our friendships and in our work who also have strong opinions on politics and religion. And it's important. I think it's important to be able to have these conversations about the relationship between the church and politics and what's going on in the world. And it's important to have civil discourse, to be respectful, be kind. We're not going to agree on everything. There's, you know, across our listeners, there's probably a wide band of political views and, and thoughts. And that's great. I think it's important to have your own views, whether you're Republican or Democrat, whether you're Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, like in the UK. You can hold any view you want. We, you know, we live in mostly a free world, not entirely. We'll talk about that, I think, on the podcast and what's going on there about freedom, liberty, and, and family. I'm looking forward to getting into that. But it's important, I think, to, if you feel so strongly as I do and you do about certain things that are going on in the world, then it's important to be able to talk about that and understand that in the context of the church. And we've said repeatedly that there are major events happening in the world, you know, Ukraine, the Middle East, you know, North Korea, Iran, you know, UK, major issues in the UK in terms of social challenges, a lot of issues in the US. We have big issues here in Canada. There's a lot of the issues that we talk about span the world. They're not just unique to these countries, but they affect, you know, the world, like immigration, you know, economy, jobs. These are things that impact people on a very serious, on a very personal level. And I have strong feelings like you and many others do on certain things, especially when it impacts, you know, global events happen, happen and how that impacts, us here locally in Canada or in the US or anywhere. So these, these are, significant, events and occurrences happening in the world. And I still, even though I'm outside the church, I look to the church, I look to the church leadership to have a position on certain things, to come out and speak up about really important things that are going on. And there's something happened recently that really, really bothers me. And as I said earlier, before we did this podcast with the Trump administration, I think I got to the point where I was saying to myself, nothing surprises me anymore. And I wake up the next day or into the next day and lo and behold, uh, something has happened and it's, um, you know, it's actually shocked me or surprised me. And so the one thing I want to— looking forward to having this conversation with you about is something that happened in the last, in the last couple of days. So, you know, the Trump administration is into what, how many weeks now? Is it 4, 5 weeks now?

January 20th. Yeah, it's about a month. A little more, a little more than a month.

So Trump, uh, was, uh, came into that position, uh, in, in, in its entirety about a month ago, and a lot's happened. I'm sure you'll agree a lot has happened in the last month or so, and you know, a lot of that, uh, those decisions, a lot of those actions have impacted the United States significantly, certainly impacting us up here in Canada, like the tariffs, for example. That's a big topic right now with Mexico and, and Canada and all these tariffs. And these other decisions are, are, are affecting, uh, the United States, uh, population. But there are decisions that are being made that are affecting the, um, relationships between America and the rest of the world. And again, I want to highlight the need for my hope that The Church has some position, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is, as they claim, is the only true church upon the face of the earth and in regular contact with God. And presumably God is watching what's going on in the world and has an opinion, a thought, even an idea, a suggestion, something to say to the prophet President Nelson on the earth about what the heck is going on in the world. So what is, and I asked you if we could talk about this today because I feel so strongly on it. And even if I have, I hope our listeners will get something from this, but I really do. But I know it will make me feel better to get certain things off my chest. And so recently there's been a United Nations vote. I want to talk about the Ukraine situation as the thing that's really unhinged me. I'll use that word. I feel unhinged right now. Because America has done something that I did not expect, and I'm quite shocked and very shocked and, and stunned actually. So the US in a recent, uh, series of United Nations votes on, uh, condemning Russia for its illegal and naked aggression against Ukraine and invading Ukraine 3 years ago, almost 3 years, years ago and, and, and a few days. Where a vote was tabled to condemn Russia's actions and aggression. The US in these two key votes certainly sided with Russia in the United Nations to mark the third anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And it also highlights Trump's position changes on the stance of the war. First, the first one was that the US opposed a European drafted resolution condemning, uh, Russia's actions and supporting Ukraine's territorial integrity. Uh, America voted the same way as Russia and other countries, including North Korea and Belarus at the United Nations General Assembly. That was in New York. Then the US drafted, uh, and voted for a resolution at the United Nations Security Council, which called for an end to the conflict. But contained no criticism of Russia. And of course, the Security Council passed a resolution, but two key US allies, UK and France, abstained after their attempts to amend the wording. The main one for me was the, um, the motion, uh, that was tabled to condemn Russia's actions. And for me, based on reliable, trusted information, verifiable, trust, not misinformation or disinformation, but reliable information that Russia did in fact invade Ukraine illegally, breaking all international rules, invaded a sovereign nation, uh, without provocation. You, there's another conversation. You can argue against that if you want, but it, it, it took the act to to invade Ukraine, and we've seen extraordinary death and destruction from that decision, from the act. It's been going on for 3 years on both sides. There's been hundreds of thousands of deaths, unnecessary, could have been avoided, but Russia, because of its and Putin's personal aspirations, and I've researched this and it's reliable, to expand and reabsorb those countries back into the Russian Empire. Imperialism, naked imperialism, not to necessarily fight against NATO's expansion, or that could be a part of it. I think it is a part of it, but based on my research, Putin is driven by this idealistic approach of restoring Russia's greatness and seeing Ukraine historically as it was. I mean, I can understand this historical relationship or some of that between Ukraine and Russia and trying to recover Ukraine as a lost territory or geography that originally was part of Russia or part of Russia's culture. And the argument for doing that is all kinds of arguments, you know, like destroying the Nazi influence there, protecting Russian-speaking individuals in Ukraine, et cetera. There may or may not be some truth to that, but Putin is— his main focus is to, uh, expand and reabsorb and expand the, the Russian, um, influence there by taking over Ukraine, and he won't stop there. Uh, Trump thinks it's about land, thinks that, you know, we can solve this by concessions, by giving land, but Putin's ambitions are greater than just land. It's absorbing the entire its culture, its people, and its land back into the, into the fold. And so it took this decision to invade Ukraine. The world, most of the world at that time, with exception of North Korea, Russia, of course, Tehran, Iran, and a few, and Belarus condemned and continue to condemn Putin's decision, Russia's actions there. And so this opportunity, especially on the anniversary of the third year, again, All these, uh, thousands of people have, have died. And by the way, Russia kidnapped physically children and took them into Russia. That has been verified. So doing those kind and, and, and, um, breaking, you know, rules around war and using bombs and munitions that they're not supposed to. And in some cases, uh, allegations of, of chemical weapons, albeit on a small scale. Which again, that needs to be investigated. So absolutely terrible, awful, illegal destruction caused by the decision and an opportunity over the last few days to condemn Russia for its, you know, for its decisions and its actions. And now we have America who is now sided essentially with Russia and with North Korea and with Belarus. And I, I, I just can't believe that. And so that shocks me, but also equally as shocking is where's the church on this? Where's the leadership? Does the church have an opinion on this? You know, what's the right thing to do? Is it to stand up and speak up and speak out as the church to say, no, we condemn Russia's actions. We do not agree with, uh, the president of the United States of America who's made— who's, who's sided with Russia. Where is the church on this? What about the principles of, of in the Book of Mormon on freedom, liberty, family, for doing the right thing? Uh, the— I did a little bit of research and there's, there is, um, extensive material that the church has to protect religious freedom. To protect the basic freedoms of, of people and the rights of people and to respect human rights. The church, uh, is an amazing organization at speaking up for stuff like that and going to these different events and organizations and, and promoting the need and value of, of freedoms, including religious freedoms. And as the mouthpiece of the earth, President Nelson, what What is God saying to President Nelson on this? Does God have an opinion? Has he communicated that to President Nelson? Where is the church leadership position on this? Why can't we speak up and condemn, uh, this decision by the president of the United States who represents obviously America? You could tell in my tone, I feel very, um, uh, angry, actually upset and disappointed. Because it's, you know, by being silent, you know, we are, the church says if you're silent, then you're actually, you're part of the, you know, you're part of the decision, you condone it in some way, or you're not disagreeing with it. So anyway, I appreciate being able to get this off my chest, vent this. Would love to get your opinion on this and what you think is going on. We try our best to, you know, remain focused on the, you know, within the scope of the Inside Out to focus predominantly on the church. But of course, you know, politics, you know, global affairs, they impact us, they impact the church. And the church— and I'll close my opening comments on this— the church must, should have a position on these issues. And I'm hoping that we'll hear from the president of the church, um, in due course, that we will read something or see something, even in a press release. Anyway, you've been very patient with my opening remarks. I'll stop and hand the time over and ask you, do you feel as strong as I do? Uh, am I completely out to lunch here? Um, am I, am I feeling misplaced? Do I feel so strong unnecessarily? But what are your, what are your thoughts on this and, and in respect to the church, uh, taking a position on some of this stuff?

Um, well, I have many, uh, and I don't think that this is outside the scope of this podcast. As I've talked many times about when we've talked about Trump, it's not just to express political opinions, it's to, as you describe, demonstrate what kind of impact this is having on the church and also on the faith of people in the church. I— Trump every day is a trial of my faith. Not just— he's not just an odious, terrible, dictator-like, um, authoritarian leader, which— and he is all of those things, but he is a trial of my faith because I believe, I believe this is the Church of Jesus Christ, and I've been taught all my life that we are given the gift of the Holy Ghost at the age of 8 when we are confirmed members of the church, that we have a unique spirit of discernment that the rest of the world does not have. And if that's true, how is it possible that we could have thrown in in such large numbers with such a terrible, odious man. And so it continues to be a trial of my faith that my fellow Latter-day Saints not only are not disturbed by this, but they applaud this, that they are embracing this, that they see Trump as a manifestation of God, not an enemy to him, when I think it's absolutely clear that he is an enemy to all things that are good, that he's an enemy to decency, to honesty, to integrity. All of the values that have been inculcated in me as a result of my membership in the church are values that Trump disdains and has absolutely no use for. So I don't— I just want to say, as you say, well, you know, we have to talk politics, and I know we usually talk about the church. To me, they are inseparable. You know, the Doctrine and Covenants talks about that the spiritual and the temporal are inseparable. In the case of Trump, I'd say the political and the religious are inseparable, because the implications of the fact that Latter-day Saints see Trump positively and embrace and support him, uh, that is a continuing trial of my faith on a daily basis. I got a text from my sister yesterday saying, oh, I really wish Dad were still here, my father were still here, because somehow he might be able to make sense of this. And it's interesting, this is the first podcast you've recorded since I got back from Peru. I was in Peru for 5 days with the Tabernacle Choir on Temple Square, and we performed. It was just a magnificent experience all the way around., and we performed in this massive stadium, that, uh, this Estadio Nacional, uh, right in Lima, Peru. And there were over 30,000 people that were in attendance. Many of them had lined up early in the day and standing in the summer heat. It's summer down there. And, uh, and they were just a raucous and wonderfully appreciative crowd. I felt a little bit like I was a rock star. I felt like Freddie Mercury at Live Aid. It was just a lot of fun. But it was also interesting. We did two concerts when we were over there. One was the big concert on Saturday night, but the other one was a— they call it the VIP concert. And It was for Peruvian officials and bigwigs. And, you know, I don't know the political structures of Peruvian government, but apparently a lot of the heavy hitters were in that room. But on the front row of that room were Mitt and Romney. They had come, and my understanding is they are working with the church in terms of establishing relationships with governments internationally. And they were there the entire time. I only saw Mitt at that concert, but Ann Romney went on some of the sightseeing expeditions with the choir. And so they were there the entire time we were. And I was one of a handful of choir members that was selected to do kind of a meet and greet afterwards. And I had the opportunity to actually go shake Mitt Romney's hand. I've met him several times before. I reminded him of that. He acted like he remembered me. I'm pretty sure he didn't, but that's okay. I mean, he meets— my father always used to say, when you're in politics, you can never say nice to meet you because then they will always say, what? I met you and I talked to you 14 years ago. Don't you remember? So Mitt was very gracious and I told him a couple of things. One of the things I said to him was, I don't think you appreciate, or I don't think you would, you know how much the Bennett family appreciated your vote to convict Trump in the first impeachment trial. Uh, because that when you did that, it felt like dad was still with us. It felt like that, that's something my father would've done. And you had the courage to do it. And I told him, I consider that the greatest act of political courage I have seen or expect to see in my lifetime. And he seemed to be touched by that. And Anne was definitely touched by that. And she was willing to go off and say, I don't understand. Can't— don't people realize this is wicked King Noah? Can't they see Trump for who he is? And Mitt was a bit more circumspect. I think he recognizes that anything he says, even privately, uh, has the potential of showing up on the front page of the New York Times. But, uh, but Mitt, you know, so I had that conversation with him and what I got a sense of in Peru. Oh, and the other thing that happened in Peru is we had a sacrament meeting right before we left. And Elder Suárez spoke of the Quorum of the Twelve. He was there the entire time. He came to the concert. The concert was narrated entirely in Spanish. Most of the songs we sang were in Spanish. And we had a teleprompter that had the words written out phonetically so that we wouldn't mispronounce them. But Elder Suárez gave a talk and I confess I was a little disappointed in Elder Suárez's talk because there was nothing in his talk that you and I and anybody that listens to General Conference or listens to Sunday school or whatever else it is hasn't heard a million times before. I mean, it was just, it was a very nice and pleasant talk. And I had somebody say, "Oh, aren't we blessed to have an apostle speak to us?" I'm like, well, Yes, and wouldn't it be nice if he actually said something? There was just no real substance to it. And as I consider that and I thought about that, I want to answer your questions based on that experience. You know, what does the church have an opinion? Why isn't the church speaking out? And I think the answer to that question is I think the church probably has many opinions and many strong opinions. And I think they see themselves as being, um, shackled is maybe too strong a word, but being limited, uh, in terms of what they feel they can say in an international church. What I got from, from Mitt Romney, what I got from just the whole Peru experience, is that the church is trying very hard to establish itself as an international church. On paper, we have more members outside of the United States than we have inside the United States, and so I think we can make the case that we are an international church, but we are not perceived that way, I think, internationally. We are perceived— we continue to be perceived as an American church, and, and I think in many ways we really still are an American church. I mean, culturally, we are an American church. Culturally, the American influence is pervasive no matter where you go. And I think the church leaders are trying very hard to dial that back. And I think that it's a mixed bag as to whether they're succeeding. So I think that is the reason why we're not hearing more pointed opinions, is that I think they think that will reinforce the idea of the American church. So I offer that by way of explanation, not by way of excuse, because I'm with you. I'm 100% with you. They need to be speaking out about this because it's just so morally contemptible to be on the side of the dictators, to be on the side of the communists, It's stunning. You go back in church history, you don't have to go very far back. We're not talking the times of Joseph Smith. We're talking mid to late 20th century history where church leaders would get up in conference. I've got a series of quotes here.

President Benson, I think, was one, wasn't he?

Oh, jeez, yes. President Benson, his entire ministry in the Quorum of the Twelve, was focused on condemning, um, communism. Uh, here's some quotes. He says, we must ever keep in mind that collectivized control over private property is not the united order but is socialism, which is part of the communist strategy. And no true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist or support programs leading in that direction. He wrote in a book We must be vigilant in exposing and opposing communism in all its forms, for it seeks to destroy faith in God and to make the state supreme. J. Reuben Clark says, communism and socialism are state slavery, no matter what you call it— communism, socialism, the welfare state, or any other name— it is enslaving the soul of man. Bruce R. McConkie: Communism is Satan's counterfeit for the gospel plan, and it is an abowed enemy. Of the god of the land. So, and I could go on and on and on. They were very outspoken about this. Well, when Mitt Romney ran for president in 2012, he said that Russia was our biggest foe on the international stage, and he was mocked by President Obama in the debate. And he says, "Yeah, the '80s called. They want their foreign policy back." And the Republican Party was mocked and ridiculed for being opposed to Russia, being opposed to communism. Now, Russia now does not, um, overtly claim to be a communist nation anymore now that the Soviet Union has fallen, but nothing has changed. And in fact, Vladimir Putin is more of an authoritarian than any Russian leader that with maybe the exception of Joseph Stalin, all the communist leaders did was use communism as a pretext for an authoritarian dictatorship. And now Putin just doesn't even use the pretext anymore. Putin, Putin is open with it. He is a— he's a dictator. He's an authoritarian. Now, China is still a communist government, although there have been a lot of market reforms. It's not what it was in its Maoist heyday, but North Korea is a Stalinist communist state. These are all the countries now that America is now aligned with, that America voted with. We have turned our backs on NATO. When you talk about, well, jeez, they're not going to get NATO membership, NATO has been rendered irrelevant by by Donald Trump. Donald Trump has told NATO that since they're not paying their dues, he thinks that they pay some fee to be part of NATO when that's not how it works. But he said, well, I'm going to tell Russia they can do whatever they want. That's a direct quote from the President of the United States. I mean, this is so flagrantly wrong. This is so disturbing. This is so unnerving, and it is so immoral. It's not just a, a political disagreement. We're not talking about legitimate policy differences. We are talking about good versus evil. We are talking about aligning with what Bruce R. McConkie called the avowed enemy of the God of the land. We are talking about the United States being the bad guys. I'm reminded of this skit, skit on British television. I don't know what the program was, but it's a bunch of, it's, it's two Nazi SS officers. And one of them says, well, why do we have a skull on our caps? Isn't that disturbing to you? Why are we the baddies? He says it feels like we are the baddies, and they talk about that over and over again, and it's played for laughs. But I look at what's happening on the international stage now, and we're the baddies. America is the bad— is one of the baddies. You know, George W. Bush, after 9/11, described, uh, the Axis of Evil. And he put North Korea in the Axis of Evil. These are evil nations. Well, we're now part of the Axis of Evil. We're lining up with those guys. We're lining up with the baddies. We're not lining up with the good guys. We're not lining up with the people who have been our allies since World War II. It's just up is down, black is white. You know, it's, and it's Latter-day Saints who are cheering it on. This is, this is what's breaking my heart. It's the Mormons who are, who, who are going against, I mean, all the people who support Trump also would tell you that they adore Ezra Taft Benson and they adore the far-right ideology that church leaders have tried to distance themselves from. But which was, you know, espoused by Ezra Taft Benson, by J. Reuben Clark, by Spencer W. Kimball. I have a quote here: "Communism is a godless philosophy that seeks to destroy man's agency and enslave him to the state." That was in 1977. I mean, that wasn't in the 19th century. That's recent enough that Most people who are alive today were alive when that was said. I mean, this is— and we have just abandoned all of this as a church. We have moved away from this. And church leaders, I do think— I am told repeatedly, and I believe it, that behind the scenes, church leaders are not Trump fans. They recognize how problematic Donald Trump is. One, I've had actually multiple people tell me that not a single member of the Quorum of the Twelve or the First Presidency voted for Donald Trump. I can't confirm that, that's speculation. But if all of that's true, they still— them, they're not speaking out Uh, for what, for what reason? I, and it feels like cowardice. I can't think of any other appropriate word. Uh, I don't know that they would describe it as cowardice because they would describe it as, okay, we're trying not to be an American church. We're trying not to comment only on what happens in America. And yet it was only what, 2 years ago that President Oaks gave a talk about the United States Constitution. In General Conference. I think it's a fool's errand to think that we're ever going to get away from how tied we are to American culture. I just— the idea that suddenly that's going to disappear, I just don't, I just don't see it. I just don't see how that's going to work. And so if we are still tied to American culture, And if Latter-day Saints in America are aligning with evil in the form of Donald Trump, then yeah, I think the church has a duty to speak out. And I am just as frustrated as you are that they're not willing to do it. So that's my rant in response to your rant. And I just— so where does this leave us?

Yeah, this is like it for me. It's like a counseling session. You should be able to talk about these things and get it off your chest and You know, I, I'm not American. You are, you, you know, you understand America far more than I do. I can say that our relationship, my family and my personal with America is one I hold America in high regard, a great deal of respect, continue to do. That won't change. We have a lot of friends in the States. We go there many, many times on holiday, you know, on business, et cetera. We have an affinity with America, the American people. We love America. We, we have high, high expectations, rightly or wrongly, that America, a good strong America acting with integrity, with fairness, but firmness as well, is essential, critical for stability in the world with no question, you know, militarily, economically, politically, socially. When America is, uh, it sounds like we describe with the church again, but when America is doing the right things, and it does a lot of the time, it is the most extraordinary country. It's got the can-do attitude. You know, I grew up in a socialistic environment in the UK that was a very different environment to what I have here in Canada and my experience in the United States. And America has, um, uh, the can-do, get-it-done attitude. On the projects that I work on, in the big projects, we all— I always welcomed, and a few of us did, the, um, American companies that would come in to work on the projects. And in fact, a lot of the British, uh, jurisdiction governments over there, the authorities there, would, uh, prefer the Americans to be on the project because there was an attitude of getting things done, getting it done and getting it done right. And bringing that can-do attitude. And America's known for that, you know, getting things done, motivation-driven, competitive. And that brings a lot of qualities. And this has been my personal and my professional experience working with professionals in the United States. And my friends in America are very incredible people, extraordinarily motivated, talented individuals. I'm not saying, uh, America has a monopoly on talent or can-do attitude. I'm saying I see that attitude more, more in abundance in America than I do anywhere else in the world. I've traveled to other parts of the world. We need a good strong America. In the world. Without that, without that anchor, we, we are in trouble. And we are now seeing the decision from the President of the United States who is changing the fundamentals of those basic important principles about integrity and honesty and rule of law and essentially doing the right thing. You may or may not have seen some of my comments on Facebook. I felt so strongly I put some of these things on Facebook and I get very little response and that's okay. I don't know if people are concerned or afraid to post or whether it would ensue in an argument online. And again, I said earlier that we need to have, I think we need to talk about these things. Social media is a platform to do that. And I think we can have a civil, you know, civil and positive discourse and respectful discourse on that. I, some of the things I've said that I felt so strongly about that I put on Facebook is for the first time in history, a president of the United States of America has voted with the enemies of the free world, Russia and North Korea, Belarus. If there is a leader of the free world, it is not, I repeat, not the president of the United States. Um, I've also said that, uh, you know, uh, Russia's, uh, sorry, on the third anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. During a key vote at the UN General Assembly, the United Nations of, uh, uh, United States of America sided with Russia and North Korea in voting against the resolution condemning Russia's illegal war. Russia and North Korea must, must absolutely love America right now. I'm lost for words. And then earlier I put on here that, um, described, uh, uh, Putin and Trump as, uh, like the Godfather movie where you've got the Corleone family and Don Corleone is the don and he's got a rival, got a number of rivals, but Don Emilio Barzini is the other rival there in the mafia movie there in The Godfather. And I go in a little bit about why I see a similarity between Trump and Putin and looking like gangster Godfather-type politics, you know, carving up Ukraine, going into Ukraine basically. And there's a deal being done, uh, this Thursday, Friday, by the way, where America will take half of much of the GDP of Ukraine in return for investing in Ukraine without any security guarantees. It's like, it's like a shakedown. It's like, look, you know, we'll, you know, we want— I, I get that you need to get the money back. I understand that, but I understand that America's put billions in, and so has Europe, by the way. I think it's very, very close. Not the $300 billion that, by the, in terms of the facts, uh, Trump gets a lot of the information incorrect, blurts out these numbers, and a lot of the time is either lying or is factually incorrect and can be proven that. And by the way, uh, 2 days ago at the press conference, uh, press meeting that they had in front of, uh, Trump there at the, I think it was at the White House, where Macron, President of France, showed up. Trump talked about the financial conditions with Ukraine loans and investment, and Macron publicly had to correct him, did it very nicely, put his hand on his, his, on Trump's hand and said, actually, no, you're wrong. You've got that wrong. Again, for our listeners, you should go and look at that. You know, this is not something that the, I'm not talking about any media reporting. I'm talking about going to listen to what Trump is saying, what words are coming outta his mouth, and then watching the French president correct him nicely, more than I think what Trump deserved publicly, and listening to what the French president had to say. He did a remarkable job there. And so you've got this president who is a liar, who's not concerned about facts and truth. Who is now behaving like a mafia gangster carving up Ukraine, deciding what's happening with Ukraine, with Russia, without Ukraine at the table. It's extraordinary. And so I've commented on these on my Facebook social media, and I've not commented on the church 'cause I don't want to bring the church into disrepute. However, I am looking to the church for leadership. The church is very, you know, you talked earlier about, you know, why is the church not responding? Is it in a difficult place? It has these opinions, but it's afraid of sharing them. Is it a bit cowardly? I think it is. I think the church is very concerned about what it says politically. But if you go back in time, And you've given this as an example. It seems that the church leaders have not been afraid to speak up. You've given us 5 or 6 quotes. If you go back further in time, the leaders of the church are completely unafraid about speaking their mind. If you go back even further in time to the Book of Mormon, you can— there's examples with Nephi and where in the Book of Mormon, across the Book of Mormon, Nephi and Alma Nephi, for example, was rebuking his brothers because they were being, you know, misbehaving. They were breaking the commandments and they were threatening his life. And Nephi said that his words were too strong for his brothers. He said Nephi's words were harsh because he loved truth and he wanted to help his brothers turn to God. Nephi's brothers reacted violently to his teachings. Nephi understood that, he said, he quotes in Nephi 1:16, 1 Nephi 16:2, Nephi says, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center. Why can't the modern church leadership be bold? The scriptures say be bold but not overbearing. Why can't we be bold? Why can't Nelson and the prophets speak up like earlier prophets going back to the '70s? Ezra Benson was the prophet when you and I were on a mission. Late '80s. And you have these, you know, even, you know, that's like in our own lifetime. That's only 35 years ago or whatever, right? And the church seemed to have this confidence to be able to speak up and speak out and be unafraid. And you can disagree with that, fine, but they were unafraid to speaking out. You know, the church, as I said earlier at the very beginning, has got this long history of supporting the Constitution, trying to do the right thing. It teaches that the Holy Ghost speaketh of truth and testifies of truth. It talks about the role and responsibility of prophets is to tell the world what has happened, what's happening, and what is going to happen if the world disobeys the commandments, and to speak about the future, to predict, to prophesy, to prophesy. Why can't President Nelson as the prophet and to be his fundamental self in being a prophet, to prophesy. The church prophesied in the proclamation to the world that if they don't follow the basic principles of family, then great calamities, I think, would come upon the world. Maybe this is that. Maybe the church sees that as a connection. I don't know. But why is President Nelson not coming out as the leader of the only true church upon the face of the earth and prophesying, speaking up, having a position, prophesying, being as bold as Nephi and earlier prophets and saying, look, you know, this is what Trump has done to side with Russia and North Korea who murder its own people, who torture its own people, et cetera, who have invaded Ukraine, and caused immense personal destruction to the people of Ukraine and to his own people that he doesn't care about. They're just fodder. You've now got the North Koreans in the, in, in, in the war. Putin doesn't care about, uh, individuals, about people. He cares about his political, uh, goals and objectives. And Trump cares about as well. I honestly believe, Jim Bennett, that Trump is, uh, focused, the very center of this, one of the key centers is focused on trying to get the Nobel Peace Prize at any cost. Sell Ukraine down the river, make massive concessions to Russia. Don't stand up against Russia who's going to expand beyond Ukraine, by the way. That's why the Europeans now, that's why NATO's breaking up. That's why the Europeans now are saying we can't look to America as an ally. We now need to create a European defense force and they're doing that right now and they have to because Russia will continue to expand its territory. He's not going to stop it at Ukraine. America is only interested in Europe from a financial investment perspective and is now looking at changing the whole geopolitics, changing NATO. I think we've seen the beginning of the breakup of NATO. I think you mentioned that earlier and America is not the America that we, we, um, you know, we've relied on. Um, I, I, I, I agree there's some arguments that the world relied on America too much. I agree with that. I think there's a lot more that the rest of the world could have done to help themselves. America had to come to the rescue. I think there's a lot of evidence behind that. Uh, but to retrench and to come back and just to be interested in us financially and to not, uh, condemn Russia, but this, uh, this aggression, uh, is, is just unforgivable. And for the church not to come out and speak up is unforgivable. It's cowardly. It's unforgivable. It's weak. You know, if God has a voice in this, surely he does. What does he think? What? And, and therefore, if Nelson is the mouthpiece, why is Nelson not speaking the words of my— of the mind of God?, or does the, or does the God not have, the Lord not have an opinion on this? Is he, is he quiet? And, and if so, why? Uh, so yeah, as I, I'm trying to piece all this together and trying to understand that process with, you know, God and revelation and discernment and doing the right thing and being bold and speaking up. You said when you met Mitt Romney, you, you, you know, you appreciated him for making a very courageous decision in condemning Trump. And Mitt Romney can do it. You can do it. I can do it. You know, we can stand up for the right thing. And so I just, I'm disappointed in the church. Um, that's an understatement. I'm disappointed. I'm actually ashamed that the church that I used to belong to can't come out and do and say something on something like this because we now seeing a, um, going to be massive repercussions on this. Uh, and is it also, to your point, that the church is afraid to speak up because most of the members, or many of the members, are pro-Trumpers? It just, it just baffles me. Um, so our listeners are, are probably exhausted by now listening to all this, and, and I know, you know, many of our listeners will have a thought and a position. They'll, you know, they'll feel strongly about these things, and we're not asking people to agree to us. At all agree our opinions, but you are right to remind me that the scope of the Inside Out does include talking about politics. It is inseparable.

You are right.

And, and these things, as I say, they affect us, they affect our lives. And if we can't stand up, Jim, for doing the right thing and speak up and speak against a cowardly bully gangster thug like Putin, and for goodness' sake, if we can't stand up against North Korea or Belarus, these dictatorships, and if we side with them, What the hell are we doing if we can't, if the leader of the free world can't even do that? And again, the prophet, uh, of the free world, I don't think he's been described like that, but the prophet of the free world can't open his mouth and say something. I'm, I'm just shocked. So anyway, you know, you've been very patient with me. Our listeners have been extraordinarily patient listening to this, but it's something that I, I feel very strongly about.

Oh, me too. And I think, I mean, it's an exhausting time to be alive. It's exhausting that we're having to live through this. My brother-in-law is a man by the name of Nate Ullman, and he wrote a, he has a blog called Thoughts from a Tamed Cynic. And he wrote an article called A Day of Infamy. And he begins, he says, on August 14th, 1941, the United States of America became the leader of the free world. He talks about the creation of the Atlantic Charter, which was the underlying alliance that led to NATO, and that when World War II hit and then when America was attacked on in Pearl Harbor, that that's the alliance that put everything together. And And so I'm just going to quote a few things that he says. Trump is fundamentally wrong to view alliances as a sign of American weakness. For 80 years, a large part of what it means for the United States to be a powerful nation is that it can expect the support of the wealthiest and freest countries of the world. That gives the United States influence and global reach that literally no country in the history of the world has been able to match. He is rapidly destroying one of the twin pillars on which that American power has been based. That power is not based solely on economic or military clout. It also comes from the fact that despite the inevitable machinations of nations and America's compromises and shortcomings, ultimately the United States has been committed to the defense of Western democracy and has stood against aggression and military adventurism. And, you know, here we are with Trump, not only not standing against aggression and military adventurism, he's proposing aggression and military adventurism. He wants to make you guys in Canada the 51st state. He wants to take over Greenland, and he's even said that we might use the military to do that. He wants to seize the Panama Canal. He wants to— just yesterday he posted a video generated by AI called Trump Gaza. It's the most ridiculous, obscene thing you have ever seen. It shows— and the AI is bizarre because it shows at one point these women in bikinis, but they also have beards and they're belly dancing. It's really bizarre, but it shows Gaza as this kind of Vegas utopia, and Elon Musk walks down the street with money raining down on his head. There's a huge gold statue of Donald Trump in the middle of a town square. You see Donald Trump in a casino, uh, groping a showgirl as if that's supposed to be a great thing. And there's this music in the background and it's Trump Gaza, Trump Gaza, you know. And he proposed this idea of cleansing Gaza. He even used the term, the word cleansing, which, you know, in, in the history of the world of ethnic cleansing, I mean, how much more blunt do you have to be to recognize that this is who this man is? He wants to cleanse Gaza of all the Gazans. And send them to other countries, kick them out of their homes, remove them from their land, and build a casino that has a huge gold statue of Donald Trump in the middle of it. It's obscene. It's obscene. It's immoral. It's not just politically wrong. Going back to my brother-in-law's essay, because, Ian, this— I brought this up because you talk about the prophet of the free world, the leader of the free world., and he ends his essay by saying, I hope and pray that the damage that Trump has done in the last few weeks is not permanent. But if it is, I fear that February 24th, 2025, and that was the day that we voted with North Korea and with Russia and with China against Ukraine. But if it is, I fear that February 24th, 2025 will mark the day when the United States of America stopped being the leader of the free world. It is a deeply shameful thing to sell out an ally that has bravely resisted with our support an aggressive tyrant. Deeply shameful. I am furious at what Trump is doing to Ukraine. More than that, I am furious at what he is doing to the United States. And this is where we are. We are, we have an authoritarian leader who is doing things that church leaders have decried with their full voices and at full volume for decades. And now when we have a leader that's doing it, we're silent, we're shutting up. And you brought up something that I have considered in the past but didn't really want to consider here, but I fear it may very well be true. Because I've made excuses for church leaders not speaking up on this in that, oh, they don't want to look like an American church. Oh, they don't want to upset international members. But you said they don't want to upset their Trumpy supporters. They don't want to upset Trumpy Latter-day Saints. And there's something very real to that because I think they are still, um, stinging from the rebuke they got from a large portion of church membership when they stood with the science in the midst of the pandemic, when they said, get vaccinated, when they said, wear a mask. When they said take appropriate precautions. President Nelson spoke out very bluntly. He called the vaccines a literal godsend. So this is a prophet of the Lord referencing God, and he's essentially saying God sent this vaccine. This vaccine is the answer to the prayers that I've asked you to, to offer. In general conference, he said, we're going to fast, we're going to pray for an end to this pandemic. And then the prophet says, we've received that answer, and that answer is these vaccines. And then all of these church members who say, I sustain the prophet, and are mad at people like Jim Bennett for advocating for more inclusion in the church in ways they don't like, all these people suddenly turn around and say, oh, he's only speaking as a man. Or, or worse, he's a fallen prophet. He's in apostasy. How dare he, he say that we should take the vaccine. What they learned from that, what church leaders learned from that experience, I think is a lesson that is hurting us today. And that lesson is, if we say things that go against church members' politics, they're not going to follow them. And if we say things continually that church members don't follow, we're going to look weak, we're going to look ineffective. And so we need to not do that. I fear that that's one of the lessons they took from the pandemic is, yeah, this, this contingent of church members who, who are tithe payers and who are in other ways faithful. I mean, they, they fulfill callings. And these are— these aren't just, um, churchgoers. These are bishops. These are stake presidents. These are people on every level of the church, and they're people who in most ways are considered the most faithful members of the church. But their loyalty to the church is trumped by Trump. It's trumped by their loyalty to their political agenda, and that's more important to them. And I think the church leaders know damn well that if they were to come out against the evil that Trump is doing, not just the bad politics that Trump is doing— we've had bad politics in every administration. We can survive bad politics. We can't survive pervasive and relentless pursuit of evil, which is what Donald Trump is doing. And, and it's what the United States is becoming. We have forfeited our role as leader of the free world, and we are allying ourselves with the bad guys, which makes us one of the bad guys. There's an old saying that if you're Um, at a— if 14 people are at dinner with one Nazi and they don't stand up against him, then it's a dinner with 14 Nazis. You know, if we just stay silent, if we don't stand up against it, we are complicit with it. And right now the church and church leaders, frankly, are complicit with the Trump agenda. And the Trump agenda is evil. And there's really no way around that. There's, there's no, I mean, there's no escape clause. There's no way that they, we can slough off our accountability for it. You know, when the church does something wrong, I used to say the church needs to do this. The church needs to do that as if the church were something separate from me. And now I recognize we need to do this. I am the church. I am part of the church. As long as I am inside the church, then if I stay in the church, I bear some measure of responsibility for anything the church does, which pains me when the church does things that I don't like. Well, the reality is we are now in the United States. We are, we are complicit if we do not stand up against this, this evil man. This evil agenda. And I don't want the church to be complicit, but I fear that we are, and we need to— we need to not be. You know, what is the point of all of these things that we are taught on a weekly, daily basis? We're supposed to study the scriptures daily. You know, we pray daily, and we go to church, and we receive instruction about how to be better disciples of Jesus Christ. What is the point of all of that if when the overwhelming evidence is that we are following somebody who is anti-Christ, who is opposed to the principles that we are taught on a daily basis, then what is the point of what we're taught if we're not able to use that? To stand up to evil. And so that's where I am. That's where this— this— there— it's not even that this is a tangent. This is front and center of— for me, front and center for the moral future of the church. If we think we can just ride this out and not raise a peep and keep our heads down and hope it goes away, We are in for a dreadful reckoning somewhere down the road. It's already starting. It's already here. We are already seeing— the church is in Ukraine. The church has members in Ukraine, and we are now essentially abandoning them. We are now saying, you know, go ahead, Donald Trump, align with the axis of evil. And let's strip mine Ukraine for parts and hand it over to a dictator and allow him to do what he will. And we're just standing by and letting that happen. And which means we're complicit with it. It's, I just don't think we can stress this enough. I don't think that there is enough outrage, that there is enough fury that we can express in opposition to this. I just think we need— if the church as a whole is not going to raise its voice against this evil, you and I are going to do our part to do it. And I'm not going to back down from it. I'm going to continue to do it. And it's ended. You know, I have a lot of people who talk about, you know, you realize you've ended any chance you ever have of holding political office? And I said, yes, I do. I absolutely do. I realize that ship has sailed. I realize that that's not in my future. Uh, but for that to be in my future, I would have to, uh, somehow, uh, be complicit with evil. I, I look at the representatives in Utah who are Latter-day Saints. Who do this kind of hand-wringing, oh yeah, this probably isn't right. I mean, I look at John Curtis, Senator from Utah. I ran against John Curtis as a member of the United Utah Party when he first ran for Congress. I only got 9.4% of the vote, but I got to know John Curtis. I had several conversations with him. I consider him a good man. And he used to be a Democrat and he decided he was never going to win office as a Democrat. So he became a Republican. And he ran for office, he ran for Congress and won, and now he's run for the Senate and he's replaced Mitt Romney in the Senate. And a lot of people look to him as, okay, well, will you have the same conscience Mitt Romney did? And the answer is no. The answer is absolutely no. He said, oh geez, I'm worried about these crazy things RFK Jr. said about vaccines, and I'm worried about some of these other nominees. And then he went ahead and voted for all of them. And He hasn't issued any statement condemning the UN resolution vote. He's just going along for the ride, and he's doing that because he knows that if he doesn't do that, his constituents, the majority of whom are Latter-day Saints, will vote him out of office. Because what Trump is doing is what a majority of American Latter-day Saints want. And that's obscene to me. That's absolutely obscene to me. And as long as I can speak out against it, I am going to do that. So I very much appreciate you, Ian, participating in. I very much appreciate you raising this as the topic. And I— if listeners are frustrated by this or bored by this, we'll probably turn off quite a few people at this point. You have to make a decision. You have to take sides. Joseph Smith once said, once you enlist in the gospel of Jesus Christ, you leave neutral ground forever. And he was talking about the church, but there is a wider principle there that I think applies. We have— there is no neutral ground left in this global battle of good versus evil.. And it is painfully clear which side Donald Trump is on. And if you think you can just stay neutral, stay quiet and ride it out, uh, you are on the side. You are, you are, you are not neutral. You are on the side of evil and there's no way around that. So I don't know if that's too harsh, but that's where I am. And that's where I'm going to continue to be.

And that's okay. And again, I, you know, these are very, very serious, important things. And I know many of our listeners will feel strongly about these things either way. And that's okay. I appreciate you raising the fact that there are church members in Ukraine and what is the church saying to them right now? You know, what's the church, especially after the vote? The church teaches that before the world was, there was a council in heaven. And two plans were put forward to God, one by Lucifer, the other by Jesus Christ. And two-thirds of us chose Jesus Christ's plan, the plan of salvation. And Lucifer, with a third of the hosts of heaven, and, and that plan, uh, which was rejected, was cast down. And we went with Jesus Christ. We voted. There was a decision. We took a position. We took a stand. I want to just include a few closing remarks here. I want to share this with you. As I was listening, I found this. It's a lesson. It's a lesson in the church lesson books, and it's dated August 2023. I think it's a gospel, one of the gospel study lessons. It's titled, Why We Should Speak Up for Truth. Listen to this. We merely have to watch the daily news or look around us to see that society is degrading rapidly. This is 18 months ago. It can become soul-numbing, and many of us may be tempted to just withdraw and keep quiet, but the law's discretion— direction, rather— is clear. We are expected to speak up. We are expected to be a warning voice. We are expected to defend the truth in a world that increasingly does not want to hear or accept the truth. Elder Ballard said this, this is in the lesson. The time has come when members of the Church need to speak out and join with the many other concerned people in opposition to the offensive, destructive, and mean-spirited media influence that is sweeping over the earth. So that's something that Elder Ballard felt strongly about. Enough for him to be quoted in the lesson. You don't, you don't put your apostle quotes in without the apostle knowing about it, surely, in a standard gospel lesson, right? Elder Ballard will have known about this, that he's been quoted. And he says, so that's Elder Ballard, member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. At a religious study symposium in California, Elder Uchtdorf of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, a group in Germany during World War II, talked about a visit he and his wife made to Auschwitz, a former concentration camp established in German-occupied Poland. By the way, I'm going to Auschwitz in April and May, by the way, Jim Bennett. Okay. Elder Uchtdorf says this: I wonder how history might have been changed had the people of Germany spoken with one voice against the evil that arose around them. Elder Uchtdorf saying this. Perhaps future generations will ask the same of us today. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to know truth. And to have the influence of the Holy Ghost to help us recognize the difference between truth and error. When we use these gifts to speak, our influence for good will grow and have profound impacts. Too often evil rises in the world because good men and women do not find the courage to speak against it, said Elder Uchtdorf. He goes on to say, And sometimes terrible, preventable, terrible, preventable events happen because we fail to open our mouths. He then finishes his comments by saying, so how do we speak up for what's right? That's from the church lesson material right on the church website, August 2023, title Speaking Up the Truth. Why doesn't President Nelson read this lesson? Follow it. So if President Nelson or anyone who's connected to President Nelson right now, listen to these words. I'm not trying to be, um, uh, overconfident here or arrogant, but if you're hearing this message, for goodness' sake, for the sake of goodness, follow this lesson. Follow the advice from Elder Uchtdorf and Elder Ballard. And speak up and speak out and say something, anything. Do the right thing. Comment on it. Do something for goodness sake. And defend the right and speak up against evil. Follow your own basic fundamental principles. Please. I hope that someone in our listeners will pass this on to present. Now is the time to do this. Is there ever a time to stand up and speak about something? Ever. And there's been many times where the church hasn't and times when it has. Now is the time to do something, to say something, and not, as we said in the, heard in the lesson here, to be silent and to be quiet when all around us all these things are happening. Like you, Jim, I feel so strongly about this. You know, if we don't, if we don't live like this, if we don't live for integrity— Elder Bednar talks about integrity, by the way, a lot. You know, we're a church of integrity, he says that. Integrity is so important to him. Well, let's have the integrity and the decency to do something, to say something, to speak up. And don't leave it to members of the church guessing. Let's not be cowards. Let's speak up. We might not carry opinion with us with people, but at least we're speaking our truth and we're being honest. And if we can't be that, Jim Bennett, in life, if we can't be like that in life, what are we really? You know, when Elder Oaks set me apart with the stake presidency,, and we had those interviews at training, he asked us, speaking as in the calling, not in just in life, but in the calling as well, how do you want to be remembered? That was his question to us as a new stake presidency. How do you want to be remembered? Not just as in this life, but also as a presidency. And so I would ask President Nelson, how do you want to be remembered when all these things are happening in the world? And you are, you are there silent, not saying anything, not speaking up. People will remember this. I will remember this. Please have the courage, do something, say something, follow the lesson material right here. Um, I'm grateful for this conversation, felt so strongly about it, and I appreciate your comments. I've nothing else to say. I think I've got it off my chest. I wanna thank our listeners for being incredibly patient, and we may have lost some of them throughout this conversation., I don't know. We try to be respectful and kind and courteous. We feel so strongly about this. Do you have any final comments or thoughts, Jim, at your end before we close?

I do not. Only to say amen and amen to what you've just said.

Thank you. Well, to you, Jim, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. I really am grateful for your, um, uh, just openness and transparency and just speaking from the heart., and I know that you've done that. I've done that, or I've tried to do that as well. I'm grateful for our listeners for their patience and understanding. We try to keep that balance. The church does extraordinary good, and you know, when the church stands up and speaks up on things, I think that's great. I really do. And let's hope that it will do so on this occasion. Thank you to you. Thank you to our listeners. And we look forward to meeting with all the listeners sometime next week. And in the meantime, we wish you the best and that you're all safe. And we express our love and appreciation to you all. Thank you for listening. And that's it for this week's Inside Out. Thank you, everybody. And thank you to you, Jim Bennett.

Thank you, William.