Growth

Welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett, and I'm here as always with the lovely and talented Ian Wilkes. How are you, sir?

I'm very good, Jim. I'm speaking from a rain-drenched— and I'm not exaggerating that— rain-drenched north of England. So I'm on a different time zone, and it hasn't stopped raining here for quite a few days. So Yeah, we're all a bit wet when we go out, but we're all keeping smiling, keeping positive, and enjoying the British friendliness that exists over here. Since I got here, I've been here a couple of weeks, it's rained almost every day. Today's been probably the worst, and all last night, it's just nonstop torrential rain, and everything's looking green. I think people are a bit miserable, actually. I think they're looking for a break that. Yeah, typical British weather.

All right. Well, now that we've given the weather report, we ought to dive into— this is a subject we've wanted to talk about for a while. And I, I really want to get your insight on it because I think you've seen some of the challenges of this firsthand in a way that I haven't. So I want to start off with some video from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. He was speaking in 2016 to a single adult fireside in Dallas, Texas, and he was talking about the biggest challenge that the church is currently facing.

We're in the midst of, of incredible growth, staggering growth in the church. It's the single biggest problem we have. It's the best problem we could have, but it's the biggest. We, we are reeling under the implications of the growth that we have in this church. Last Thursday, I've been out here this Thursday, I've been with Elder and Sister Holland, been with Elder and Sister Robbins this week. So I missed the temple meeting this Thursday. But a week ago Thursday, we created 15 stakes. And we're doing that más o menos every week, more or less. It might not be 15, but it's— the week before it was 12. Uh, sometimes it's 8 or whatever, and it'll be a little uneven, but, but, but the point is, I mean, we're, we're talking double-digit stakes every week, every week of our lives.

Double-digit stake growth every week of our lives since 2016. Uh, that's very impressive. Is it true? Uh, because the numbers that I'm seeing suggest that maybe it isn't. There was an article in the— this month or just last month that was talking about real numbers in terms of church growth and the growth rate of the church. We have seen that the growth rate has been declining for a very long time and everybody talks about that, but they still say, oh, isn't this great though? The church continues to grow. But the problem is the growth in certain areas in the world is masking the lack of growth and even the total collapse to some degree of the church in other areas. If you look at specifically the census that The Wall Street Journal brings up, it talks about the fact that 1.1— let's see, in 2007, 1.8% of American adults identified as Mormon. In 2007, this is from the Wall Street Journal. In 15 years, that total dropped to 1.2%. In raw terms, that's a net loss of roughly 1 million adult members. So It's very hard to get our hands on specific numbers because the church counts you as a member of the church until you are 110 years old. And most of the people who join the church, who stop going to church, don't go through the process of taking their name off the records. They just stop going. They're done. And they don't consider themselves members of the church. All of those people in Scotland that we found who had been baptized in the baseball baptism program, were on the records of the church for decades and decades without even realizing it. And so these census numbers, I think, are, are probably the best indication we have, because these are people who self-identify as members of the church. And according to these, to these numbers, 1 million fewer people consider themselves Latter-day Saints in in the United States. Now, if you go to the United Kingdom and you go to all of Europe, those numbers become far more dire and far more drastic. Uh, there was an article just a week ago talking about the fact that the church is shrinking in Ireland and that there are very few members of the church in Ireland. The church has closed 12 different wards in the UK over the past year, 4 different stakes in the UK over the past year. And the numbers in the Wall Street Journal say that the self-identification of Latter-day Saints in Europe has plunged by 18% over the last 10 years. So, I mean, those are really stark and startling numbers. And anecdotally, they back up what I've experienced in talking to people. People that I still know in Scotland tell me that there are probably half as many people coming to church as there were when we were missionaries back there in the late '80s. And that gets to be really depressing when you think that, okay, we go out there, we're the stone cut without hands that's going to roll until it fills the whole earth. And you go to the MTC and they fill you— they tell you about all of the thousands of people that were baptized in the early days of the church in the UK, and that this was just the most fertile soil for the gospel seed to be planted. And the field is white already to harvest. Let's go out there and harvest. Well, 30 years later, 35 years later, the church is half as big. And what's going on here? That's kind of a broad question, but I'm confident, Ian, that you can answer it.

Okay, well, I'm not sure about that, but I'll try to dissect it and kind of break this down a little bit. So I think the sources there, the New York Times is pretty, well, one of the reliable sources.

Well, this is the Washington Post that, oh, okay, I thought I was reading Wall Street Journal. This is the Washington Post.

I apologize, Washington Post. And so I'd heard that President Holland regrets making that comment at that particular time because it's quite easy to dismantle and kind of break that down. If you look at, I've looked at some numbers and consolidated some of the numbers. And in 2011, there was approximately 14.5 million people, up from about 309,000 people on the previous year. That's a 2.19% growth, that's back in, 2011. And when I was, uh, just to kind of line this with my experience, when I was on the state presidency at that time in Canada, we had about, uh, we knew the numbers, I think we had about 6,000 active members in our state. And it was approximately, if I'm generous, about 1,600 people, 1,500 people that were actually active. If you look at the units Again, what I want to do is kind of talk about some of the numbers and percentages, and then just kind of line that up with my own personal experience, firsthand experience of the numbers in the stakes and wards that I've served. So with the stake in Canada, about 6,000 people, 1,500 active. And that was about— that was back in 2011, when I was just called on to the stake presidency. There's about 8 units, approximately, in the stake. Some of the units were small, other units were big in the region of maybe 200 to 250. And that some of the small units were probably like 30, 40 or 50, some of the small branches. I think 1,500 is quite generous in the, in the stake that I was serving at the time. If you look at the trend there from 2012, there was some 2.36% growth in 2012. 2, 14,782,000 there. And so over, you know, from 2011 right up to 2015 and beyond 2019, an average, it looks like we do the average about 1.5, 1.7% growth. 2014 was 1.92. That was a bit of a bumpy year. But when you get to 2019 and 2020, there's a significant drop in the rate of growth. So 2020 looks like we have about 16.5 million, up 98,000. That was a 0.59% growth. And 2021, there was about 16.8 million. I think that's fairly close. And that was a 0.85% growth. So the growth rate has slowed. And I think that's, you know, I think it's really important to understand. So I think the church is growing, albeit very, very slowly. And then if we contextualize that with reality based on our experience, I'm here in the UK, I've been here for a few weeks now, and I'm in touch with quite a few friends up and down the country. Some are active, some are not. I'm hearing stakes have been amalgamated. I think there's something happening down in the Reading stake, some changes down there. I think the Watford stake, there was some restructuring, reorganization there. So, units have come together. If you look at Scotland, so I was a bishop in Scotland back in the early 2000s, late 2000s. And in our ward at that time, and it was a typical ward, Jim, And of course, as a bishop, you know the numbers, all the, you know, there's about maybe, oh boy, maybe 800 members on the record. And we had about, coming out to sacrament, if we had a good day, we had maybe 65, 70, that's pretty good, maybe 80 people that came out on a general day. Now those numbers in the same ward that I served in is about 35, 40. I think the numbers across Scotland from people I am in touch with who serve on stake presidencies and have been bishops, etc., there's been a significant drop-off across Scotland in almost every— well, virtually every stake in every unit to the percentage of about, at least if we're being generous, about 24 to 27%. And I think that number is quite low. Some units have closed. Other units have remained stagnant, but many units have averaged between 30 and 60 people coming out. When you and I were in Scotland in the '80s there, late '80s, the situation was dire back then, but not as stark as it is now. So, you know, the reality is that you've got significant decline in members, you've got poor retention rates, You've got challenges to the traditional proselyting methods. In the UK now, they really don't want people knocking on the doors. You and I used to knock on doors 10 hours a day, in the rain. You're getting nowhere, frankly. The number of referrals have dropped off by 35%, I'm told, across Scotland, across the north of England. So, the number of people providing referrals to the missions have dropped significantly. And back when you and I were missionaries back then, it was like pulling teeth to try to get referrals from members. There's all different reasons why members didn't or couldn't share their friends in regards to the church. This is before the internet, before all the issues came out. And so the traditional proselyting methods have changed. It's all gone online now, as you know, a lot of it's electronic, digital, etc. That is a very different experience today. Trying to bring people in and, and, and, um, and, you know, you know, proselyte them through that way. They can't knock on doors. There's some rules or regulations around that. Security people don't want that. Um, and then all the issues now that are very easily searchable, which didn't exist when you and I were on mission— were on missions. Um, in 1994, President Hinckley attended England. It was, it was in New York State. I attended this regional session. It was a priesthood session, actually, across the parts of north of England. It was in York, Metropole. And he discussed some of the challenges facing the church. And he said at that time that growth was one of the biggest challenges that the church faced. And based on at that time, looking at the stats and the graphs that I got in front of me, it looks like that statement by President Hinckley in York 1994 is consistent with the numbers that I'm looking at here that have consolidated across different sources. And it looks like in the— that the church peaked in terms of growth and rate of growth. And I'm trying to pinpoint this as close as I can looking at this graph. That looks to be about 1990 to 1994, 1992. So, you know, we're talking 30 one, you know, 30 years ago, where it looks like the church had actually peaked and the rate of growth had actually peaked. Since then, there's been, you know, the rate of growth has declined. And it looks like looking at the projections here, we're on track, the church is on track in the next short few years to reach a position that I would describe as plateau, plateaued, where you may have, was it, you know, maybe 17.5, 18 million 0.1% rate of growth or 0.2 or whatever, so pretty much stagnant. And then if there's no new people coming in, so no new blood coming into the church, what's going to happen is the potential acceleration of decline is then going to reverse potentially, I think this is going to happen, all of the gains that the church has made since the restoration of the church, right up until the period of time in the late '80s, early '90s, looking at the graph here, where it achieved optimized, maximized growth. And then since then, it's actually declined. So I think the church is about to plateau, and no new people coming in translates into more people leaving. And the church then reporting at some point in the future, the church is going to have to report, well, it don't have to, it's gonna report a decline in numbers and it won't do that. So it will somehow modify or change the growth criteria and try to present growth in other ways. You know, and I've got some, I've heard some things, some, ideas or thoughts that they've got about how they can, um, change the, the metrics for growth and add metrics to the growth to show that the church is growing in other ways. Temples is one of them. And, um, the church is now, I'm told, looking very closely at the metrics for, um, monitoring and measuring temple activity. So number of endowments, numbers of baptisms for the dead, Oceans and Nointings. If you know, there's a big program where they've got the youth now involved in the temple activity, and that's no accident. I think that's very much part of a strategy to broaden and widen the criteria for measuring and monitoring growth more broadly beyond, you know, people joining the church. And I've also heard they may, and this is quite interesting, quite controversial, I don't think it will happen, but I've heard this, it could be just a rumor, that the church may be looking at measuring the number of people who, on one category who have actually— the work's been done for them. Those names are counted. We know that. We know that the endowments accounted for them. We know the Washington's anointings accounted. This is a fact. This is no secret. The question is whether they're going to look at that as people joining the church on the inside as, as a growth metric for saying that the church is growing. I see that very, very difficult, very controversial, and very problematic going forward. So in a summary—

Hearing that that's actually going to happen?

No, I don't think— I'm told it will or is going out. I mean, the facts are, look at the facts, because it's a very extraordinary thing to even think about. The facts are that we do measure that. Church knows when they go, how long they're there for. We know who they're doing the work for. We know that doing washings, anointings, that's counted. Baptisms for the dead, number of endowments, all that is counted, um, digitally on the church computer. That's a fact. That's no secret. The question is, if the church is going to plateau, and it is, and then, and then show a decline in numbers, and which it will happen, how does it report that? Will it report that? How does it report that? Does it broaden the metric for measuring growth across other areas. I think that's absolutely going to happen. That's going to be a strategy. Will that strategy extend to, um, adding or, you know, recording people joining the church from the other side of the veil? I don't think so, but other people disagree with me on that. Um, and what other way— what other areas can the church build in its strategy or incorporate in its plan to show that the church is growing and will be heard and sounded in every, you know, every tongue kindred nations. Just one other point as well, again, looking at the research of them here, they are actually experiencing quite a bit of growth in Africa. Now, I've got somebody I know extremely well, whose name I won't mention, who has just been called to Africa in the last week. So I've had a conversation, I've done some research, and the church is committing quite a significant amount of its resources to building the church in Africa. And I think we're going to see many, many baptisms in Africa. And I think that's where— I think that's one of the short-term saving opportunities, if you like, to save the church or at least show some rate of growth, because in Africa You know, the churches, they don't know about the issues as much. They're looking to improve their life, of course, and they're looking to be part of, you know, a community. They're very receptive towards the church, very receptive towards the missionaries. There's millions of people there who are potentially interested in joining the church. So if you add that to the mix and all the other elements that I've, you know, shared, I think the church will continue for a while at least to show some rate of growth.

Well, I certainly think you're right about that being the strategy, uh, and certainly that is the only reason why the church is able to continue to post, uh, positive growth numbers. And it's also important to recognize the, um, the numbers that the church has are much better than the numbers that traditional Protestantism has, that Catholicism has, at least in the United States. All traditional organized religion within the United States is shrinking precipitously, and the church has been able to offset some of that. Now, the church has, has sort of wrapped itself around in the security blanket of, yeah, see, we're not doing as bad as all those other guys. But what they're missing is that they're not doing as well as some other guys too. We're getting trounced by Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists. And Seventh-day Adventists are seeing remarkable growth, more than the Jehovah's Witnesses, more than anything else. And probably the reason for that, at least in both of those two cases, is that Every member is truly a missionary. You know, that's a maxim that David O. McKay said during his administration. Every member a missionary. But the reality is most members sit at home and send their kids off to missions and hope for the best. And if they're feeling good, they might offer a referral here and there. But even that seems to have dried up. And so Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists spend their entire adult lives going out and knocking on doors and going out and trying to make contacts. And so they are seeing much better growth than we are. So, you know, I was listening to a statistician who was talking on the Mormonland podcast for the Salt Lake Tribune, and he said that's essentially— that's the solution. You know, if the church wants to grow, it has to do what it takes to grow, and it has to get all of the members involved in going out and acting as missionaries. I don't see that as a solution, because I don't think the members would stand for it. But when you start talking about the idea that the church is going to mask the decline of, of real numbers of people who are coming by claiming that people who have had their temple work done are now members of the Church. I think back to the huge, huge debacle of the Church baptizing Holocaust victims, Church using records of the Holocaust to to go in and, and index names and send them through proxy temple ceremonies. Elie Wiesel, I think I'm pronouncing that correctly, who was a Holocaust survivor, spoke out vociferously against the Church and the idea that the Church was erasing Jewish identity by claiming that all of these Holocaust victims were now members of the church. And the church's response to that, which I think was entirely appropriate, was to say, we do not count these people as members of the church. This is a free offering, a free gift to them that they are, are welcome to accept or reject in the next life. But we would not dream of saying that they are members of our church. That would be thrown out on its head if we started to count everybody who has had temple work done for them as posthumous members of the church. I think it would be a huge PR disaster, and rightly so. And I think that all of the groups that came after us when we were using Holocaust records, would come after us again. And they'd be joined by a whole bunch of other groups who'd say, who are you to tell me that my ancestors are now Mormons? You can't do that. And I don't think we can do that and get away with it. I just— I know we have done a number of boneheaded PR moves in the past. This one, I think, is a bridge too far. This one, I think, would be so colossally embarrassing that I don't know that the church would be able to recover from it. And the thing is, I don't know that it would fool anybody, least of all members of the church. You know, we're not stupid. Don't, don't tell us that the church is growing when— okay, no one's coming to church, but it's growing on the other side of the veil. So that's all that counts. That just doesn't make any sense. That doesn't pass the smell test at all. So when you talk about Africa being the thing that's going to save our butts, I think you're right in the short term, or at least maybe the midterm. But the reason Africa is growing so quickly is that in terms of, you know, developing nations, they've got several more years or maybe even decades before the entirety of the population catches up with the developed world. And so the kinds of things that worked when we were missionaries 35 years ago still work there. I'm sure that the, the Preach My Gospel discussions in Africa do not include any mention of the priesthood ban that endured for 100 and some— 140 years. And when they get the kind of access to information that is available in the United States, in the United Kingdom, all throughout Europe, all throughout Japan, when they have that kind of level of access They're going to have the same level of questions and they're going to have the same level of attrition that we're having now. And so it sort of— it deeply frustrates me that rather than confront the central problems of why we're not growing, we're looking for Band-Aids, we're looking for short-term fixes, and we're looking, hey, Africa is growing. This is great. That'll save us. We can go and stand up in General Conference and say church growth this last year was 4% or whatever it is. I think that's a high number now. And, and so we can, and we can continue to announce these temples. You know, the temples are giving the illusion of growth. It used to be that the announcement of a temple was a signifier that the church had grown significantly in the area where the new temple was going. Now, the announcements of temples, they come at the end of every conference and they used to be really exciting. And now it's okay. It's a laundry list of projected temples, many of which are not being built. I mean, we've had temples announced in China and in Russia that are not going to be built anytime soon. And so you get this laundry list of temples in areas that don't have anywhere near enough of a membership base to support them, let alone enough of a membership base to staff them. You have people now, lots and lots of couple missionaries now. Their missionary assignment essentially is to go be a temple worker in a, in a temple where there just aren't enough people locally to staff these temples. And so we're doing all of these things to sort of maintain the illusion of the kind of growth that Elder Holland was talking about at the beginning of the podcast. But it is an illusion.

It—

and it's, it's not sustainable in the long term. We have to address the kinds of problems that are preventing us from growing. And I kind of want to get into that with you, if you're interested. I mean, if you, if you were If you were the president of the church, I'd be happy to sustain you, sir. You are now president of the church. What do you do to stimulate church growth?

Thank you for that. And I want to respond to your other points, but I'll answer that last question head on. So this is what I would do if I was the president. And by the way, Elder Holland does regret making those comments. And in fact, Um, halfway through his comment, there's a statement there that you played, there's a change in his tone, uh, if you've noticed that. I think he realizes that, uh, you know, this information is going to be, uh, dissected in great detail. But to your question, um, here's what I would do, and I would have done this a long time ago. I, I would have teamed with other organizations, churches, charities, all kinds of organizations that are involved in humanitarian aid, which the church does to some extent, but more locally, more regionally, to deal with local issues, deal with homeless, deal with, you know, back-to-work employment, deal with providing humanitarian services, providing service in the community. In the stake that I served in, and this is in stark contrast to what the other churches are doing, those churches in the stake in British Columbia Churches across the entire province of British Columbia at Christmas time and throughout the year were all involved, teaming together, partnering together to help the homeless, open the buildings, befriend the homeless, feed the homeless, actually, uh, feed the homeless, open the kitchens, open the, the cultural halls and allow the homeless to come into their buildings. And they were feeding them and befriending them, and, and there were other people that provided outreach services that came into the church buildings and provide a whole range of professional medical professionals supporting. Every church that I could see in our state had been doing this long before I got there. The same in Scotland, by the way. I remember coming out of a hotel in Edinburgh just down the road from Spilor and Collington Road near the mission building office there, and there was a big sign on the bus stop just down the road there, coming from Edinburgh, and it was a big outreach program, and all the churches in Edinburgh all teamed together— Church of Scotland, the Catholic Church, the Evangelical Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses were on there— and they were all working together to help the homeless. And this is a few years ago. I remember looking at that poster and there was no reference— I looked twice, I was very disappointed to see no reference to our church. And then going back to the British Columbia experience, where every year and throughout the year churches and charities were all coordinating their efforts to help a whole range of people with different needs and issues and opening up the buildings and providing voluntary support. And what were we doing? I think it's what we were doing. We opened a building and, and I was in charge of this, by the way, or at least I was partly responsible for this and felt very helpless to change this despite best efforts. What would we do? We laid out all the tables and we put Christmas ornaments on the tables, and people were invited to come into the building and walk around the cultural hall and look at the tables that were beautifully adorned. And they would see all these different Christmas ornaments, trees and globes, you know, some Santas there, uh, some other, um, art, you know, uh, Christian art that they'd brought in with lights and Christmasy things, et cetera. And it was all adorned with, it was beautiful. It was pretty, uh, amazing. But what did it do to, you know, to help the people in need? That, I mean, did absolutely jack squat. So you're asking me what would I do? I would be engaged in direct active community service, opening up the building, buildings across the world, providing a resource to organizations across the world. When I was the Bishop in Scotland, we were the only ward in Scotland for a fact, and certainly most parts of the UK where we open a building, Jim Bennett, to a biannual— so it was every two, every, so every year, twice a year, blood transfusion event. So we opened up the building, they came, they set all the equipment up. We had hundreds of non-members come into the building and give blood, and people who had never stepped foot into a Mormon church before were coming in. The other events that we did at the same time, we did two major Young Drivers Challenge events with the Dalkeith Police Station, which was adjacent the building, and all the police officers and all people and organizations involved in young driver safety came in. They set up the stands and the booths, and they had presentations and videos in the cultural hall. And again, we had hundreds of people come into the building who otherwise would not have come into Mormon Church. So if I was the prophet, and if the prophets listen to this, use the missionaries and the members to get involved directly in serving the community. If you don't wanna knock on doors like George Witness says, fine, cuz it is very difficult and it's not productive to knock on people's doors and to preach to them. They don't want that. They don't want to be preached to and they don't want you coming, a stranger coming in, into the house. What they do want is, is a, is an organization, uh, locally who cares about them, who can help them, who could maybe, uh, go to some shopping for them or cut their hedge or, or, uh, or the lawn or, or do some kind act of service. Or put on a food drive, a food event, et cetera, which the church does in certain parts. So with all the extraordinary resources and billions of dollars that the church has got, with a 130,000 missionary force and millions of members who are active, and just think about the reactivation possibilities of inviting people, not just to come up to church, but 'Would you help us in a food drive?' That's a very different proposition to coming out to sacrament. You know, 'Will you come out to sacrament?' or 'Would you come to a baptism?' You know, it's difficult for people who've not been in the church to come back into an environment which they might not feel comfortable or even ready for. It's a very different situation or proposition. We invite them to participate in a community-wide outreach or service initiative. That's a very, very different experience. And it's very Christian. It's very Christlike. That's what Christ was doing. He wasn't in the church. He wasn't in the buildings, you know, stuck in, in a room and talking about stuff. And his church was without walls. It was out in the community, blessing and healing and feeding and, and building and befriending. He was out there with the homeless. We've lost our way. And I think, you know, the biggest thing the church can do to improve its reputation, restore some of its credibility, which has lost a lot, restore some of its integrity, which has lost a lot, is to mobilize its significant resources that it has in abundance, more than many other organizations out there, frankly, across the world, and get the members involved in direct, active community service. I think that's the biggest thing they can do.

I would love to be a member of that church, and I am a member of that church, but only sporadically. I mean, when the church does things like that, I mean, I'm a broken record when I talk about when the church rallied around us when my daughter had her injury that left her paralyzed and our ward descended on our house and fixed everything up and made us dinner and remodeled her room and did all these things. I was just in awe of how quickly and how easily— easily, I guess easy is the wrong word, but I mean, there isn't, there isn't another organization out there that has the capacity to do that. I mean, we already have the capacity to do all of those things that you've described. And I absolutely agree with you that that would do far more for growth, for missionary efforts. You know, when the Savior was talking, I mean, everybody quotes the Savior in his last injunction to go out and preach the gospel to the world. Throughout his ministry, what he kept saying was, you are a city on a hill. Don't hide your bushel under a candle— your candle under a bushel. You know, let your light so shine. Let your good works Demonstrate who you are. By their fruits ye shall know them. And if the church were to produce the kinds of fruits that it was capable of producing, we would see— I think, yeah, I think we'd see transformations that, that we wouldn't be able to handle. The kinds of things that Elder Holland's talking about, like just staggering growth.

Yes.

The idea of an organization with the resources that the church has, devoting the vast majority of its time to actively improving people's lives. Yeah. And I'm not talking about improving their lives by teaching them things, but by feeding them, by giving them medical care, by doing things that have a tangible, objective benefit to their lives. I think that could revolutionize the world. I think—

Yes.

There's this huge opportunity. This is a wake-up call. This is an opportunity. This is not, oh gosh, we're shrinking and what do we do? Well, let's just double down and do it harder. And shrink slower. That's not, that's not the solution. So anyway, I'm just, I'm just sitting here as you're talking, cheering you on and saying amen.

The power and the transformation of actually helping people, right? Why do I know this? And I'm not the prophet. And, and why doesn't the church know this? Why can't they see? Why do we know this and see this and the church seemingly doesn't? Or they do, but they're not prepared to activate. Just to your point earlier, I can't think of an organization which, which so well organized, so well structured, so much potential, so much capacity to be with so many resources that can lead virtually outpace almost every other organization in delivering for real help and support to people who are struggling in a way that absolutely strengthens and improves their life at a fundamental level. And the other thing as well, Jim Bennett, and I've seen this firsthand, and I've experienced this in my own life, if you help somebody and you're there and you love and you show your love through action, you feed them, you befriend them, be a real friend like Christ was and is, right? And you help them out of a problem, and you improve their life, and they're grateful for it, and they shed tears with you, they hold you and hug you. When someone comes to them and tells them that Joseph Smith— what are they going to say? Oh, they pull down the church or criticize the church? They say, well, maybe, maybe, maybe there's some truth in that. But the church helped me. It saved me. It supported me. It fed me. It befriended me. And I'm one of those people, right? I see many, many issues with the church, but I have never discounted or disqualified or canceled out all the good that the church has done for me on a very personal level in my life. How can I do that? Why would I do that? I'd be dishonest if I didn't acknowledge the kindness and service that the members in the church have extended to me in extraordinary ways that have transformed and improved my life. I'm here really because of the goodness of the church. So I think that's really important that, you know, if the apostles are listening, the General Authorities are listening to this, just get together, listen, you know, don't follow I mean, this is no secret what we're talking about. We're not the only ones with these ideas. The ideas didn't originate here. Suggestions and ideas, recommendations have been around for a long time, but bring them into meeting, have a serious discussion, and get yourselves, you know, aligned up and focused and use your resources and see the potential for transforming the church. And I think it's a huge game changer if somebody could lead this at the apostle level and see the vision and hopefully get some inspiration. Why is it we see it and sometimes, you know, they don't? I just want to go back to some of the points that you made earlier, 'cause I think they're important, and I want to touch upon COVID just briefly, 'cause I think COVID's a major factor. We saw a very dramatic impact from COVID on the church, you know, attending church, et cetera, 'cause all the rules, regulations, every organization was impacted. You know, religious, business, every, you know, government institution was impacted directly and very significantly. Um, and in terms of our church, and it's not unique to our church, um, you know, they, uh, they were, they were basically— you couldn't go, you couldn't go to church, you couldn't mix, you couldn't be there in person. Um, it, it was an— and nobody was prepared for this. There's no process, there's no systems. The church wasn't alone. There were very few organizations out there that really could have foreseen, frankly, the significance and the impact of COVID I don't think anyone that I know could foresee the dramatic impact COVID had on their business or on the church. But what happened, there was a significant falling off a cliff, if you like, a drop-off in people attending their churches. And what happened is they attended them online. And what I've seen in our stake, and I've seen it a lot here, where people hadn't— didn't go to church for many, many months, you know, up to over a year. I think that was, you know, up to maybe 15 months they hadn't been to church or couldn't go to church for the rules, etc., depending on the regional or the country rules. And they kind of got used to being at home. They just didn't go to church. And there was a percentage, and I don't know the numbers, but there's a percentage that never went back. They just decided not to go back. And COVID for them perhaps was a reason not to go back, or during COVID when they're at home, and I heard this happened quite a bit, they're online, more online than they have ever have been, and they're researching something for a talk or they're studying, and they come across some material more frequently perhaps than they would have done previously by researching some material for a talk, et cetera. And they spent more time in the home on the computer, they discovered issues or came across issues. And that's actually led them down a rabbit hole. And that's one reason I've heard with some people, at least, why they decided not to go back. I said earlier that the church measures all the stuff that's going into the temple. And there's many, many people who go and do the work for their ancestors, whether they be Jewish, or Catholic, or whatever. And they come out of the temple, and they share with someone, their bishop or someone else, and they've had a prompting, Jim, they've had a revelation or a feeling, or some inspiration that their family member, including Jewish family members, joined the church. And the bishop or the stake president or the family members have had the same experience or at least acknowledged that. And the response often is, well, they're now members of the church. So if the work's been done for these people, and there's a feeling or a revelation or some inspiration that the person that you've done the work for, your ancestor, who you are connected to in a very personal way, has joined or accepted the, the, the message and the baptism. The question is, are they a full member of the church? If you look at the doctrine of the church, they are. If you look at Moroni, where the baptized in the name of Christ which is what we do in the temple. No difference. The authority is there, baptizing by proxy. They haven't got a body. That's why they've been baptized in the name of Christ by the power of the priesthood. And if they accept the message and the gospel, technically, doctrinally, historically, they are members of record. Whether the church will measure that or account for that in its statistics, I, I I think it's highly unlikely, but I think the Africa strategy is bang on. That's what I would do. So go back to your question. I would focus huge resources on service and I would build 10 new missions in Africa. Back to you.

All right, there you go. It's interesting that you're talking about these people that have these promptings, that people on the other side of the veil have accepted the work. Uh, right now we're recording this right after the sentencing of Lori Vallow. Does that name mean anything to you?

It does. Interesting.

I've only—

I've researched or learned about, uh, Lori in the last 2 days since learning about the sentencing.

It's a horrific, awful, awful Uh, it, it, it is a horrific, awful event, and it's very clear that Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell, uh, are just horrific people who've done horrific things. But she was given the opportunity, uh, to make a statement at the time of her sentencing, and she spent the entire time talking about her promptings. That the children she murdered have visited her in prison. Her son has an adult spirit now, so when he put his arm around her as a spirit, it was— he was very tall. I mean, she's describing him as—

and I'll listen to this.

Yeah, yeah. You know, Chad Daybell's first wife, who he murdered so he could marry Lori Vallow, they were picking out wedding rings while the first wife was still alive. Apparently, according to Lori Vallow, Tammy Daybell is now one of her best friends. She's come and visited her. So, you know, when you open the door to the idea of personal revelation having institutional weight, you open Pandora's box. I have no doubt in my mind that many good people have been through the temple and had remarkable spiritual experiences and had experiences with their ancestors and all of these wonderful things. I am not calling into question the legitimacy of those personal experiences. I am calling into question the wisdom of allowing that kind of personal experience to bear institutional weight. Because if a decent person tells me about a real experience that they have, how do I measure that against the Lori Vallow? When Lori Vallow comes to me and says, hey, guess what? My children that I murdered, they've accepted the gospel on the other side too. So Let's, let's make a note of that, shall we? I don't think the church ever wants to be in a position where it has to listen to those kinds of lunatics. And that's what would happen if the church were to sort of rely on those kinds of personal experiences. I think the church has been wise in terms of how they've told members to essentially keep those to themselves. Right? You don't— when something is that spiritual and you've had these kind of remarkable experiences, uh, all you do when you just sort of throw them out there is you're, you're hurling your pearls before swine. Uh, don't do that. And, and I think that's wise counsel. And so I don't know, I, I mean, you're, you're, your prescription, I, I agree with it. And I also think, you know, it's great that we're growing in Africa. I don't want to take anything away from any of that. The thing I want to do is create a circumstance that is sustainable because I don't think the kind of African growth that we're seeing is a sustainable solution for the long-term problems. If Africa's growth is masking declines in Europe and in the United States, that's not a sustainable model because all that means is that Africa is behind. The same kind of stagnation that has come to the United States and to Europe is eventually going to come to Africa too, unless we find the solution that really solves this. And I absolutely believe that the— one of the reasons the Lord has reestablished the church and one of the reasons why we call this the kingdom of God on the earth is that we have a responsibility and a charge to build the kingdom of God on the earth. And the way you do that is you make heaven on earth. And the way you make heaven on earth is you care for people beyond boundaries, beyond membership records. You create a circumstance where the church becomes synonymous with service, with kindness. And right now, when people think of Mormons, they think of polygamy. They think of, you know, I knew a Mormon once, and maybe I liked that person, but they always kind of kept to themselves or whatever else. You know, there are all kinds of perceptions about the church, perceptions that need to be overcome when we try to get these people to join the church. And those perceptions will be overcome in a hot minute if what was synonymous with the church was, oh, the Mormons, well, they're the ones that run the homeless shelter down the street. They're the ones that run the free healthcare clinic down the street. You know, if they're ones that do all of these things that are improving people's lives, uh, then yeah, then all of a sudden worrying about the Kinderhook plates or some other kind of whatever in church history, it, it doesn't matter. By their fruits ye shall know them. And the fruits of the church can be so much sweeter and so much more remarkable than they are currently. And I would just love to see that happen. And that's where I would, you know, and yes, I would continue to grow in Africa, grow wherever we can. But transforming the fundamental mission of the church into a service organization that blesses people's lives on a day-to-day level, I think that's the answer. So When I am called as president of the church, I will make my first— well, I'll make you my second counselor. But if the money's right, maybe I'll bump you up to first counselor. We'll see what happens. If you're called as president of the church, you don't have to call me into the presidency. So we'll see what happens.

Yeah, I think— go ahead, you continue.

No, no, I'm just—

that's I think you've articulated really well. You're describing, um, you know, I'm on the outside, but you're describing how Christ would operate if he was here, right? That's exactly what Christ did. It's exactly what Christ would be doing, albeit in, in modern times, right? Um, so, and so when I contrast that, listen to you, and, and see where the church is going, and then the, the resources it's spending on defending itself on this and that and all these apologist groups and masking this. But just the time and effort, they must be exhausted. They must be sick to the back teeth of having to defend on almost every front. Yet the answer, the solution, or one of the solutions, it's not the panacea, but one solution to transform it is to go back to something really simple. It's like The most obvious is standing in, you know, right underneath the nose, right? It just seems like to be head from where they can't see it is to engage in the type and level of service that you talk about. And if they want to measure that service, great. You know, how many charity events or outreach events or homeless outreach and how many homeless they've saved from, you know, from the cold and how many they fed and and how many medical outreach people that they've supported and all kinds of— they want to measure that, great, do it. Absolutely. And then— but I think going back to an earlier point, I think we don't see— I see it probably a little bit more from the conversation I've had, but I think you probably don't fully see the significance of Africa, from what you just told me, you know, if I understand what you just said, I think that if the church were to build the number of missions in Africa, and I'm hearing that it will, you're going to see that— I wouldn't use the word mask, I'd use the word counter. So these declines, the slow rate of growth in North America, Europe, UK— Europe's really bad as well. I think it's going to offset to some extent midterm, not even short-term, we're going to see some midterm growth. And I think Africa's going to counterbalance some of it. I really do, because I think they are going to be building those missions. And we're talking about also Indonesia, and we're looking at the Caribbean places as well. So, but yeah, if you add all that up, if they were to do that and they were to focus on service and for all these that we talked about, you would see the church, you know, transform. And imagine how many people could, would be retained in the church. And imagine how many people would want to be part of an extraordinary organization who was mobilizing all its resources to help people in real terms and not just getting up. So many times I did this and I did it myself. I'd get up and talk or in a lesson or in a conference and we'd talk about how great service is and Christ wants us to serve. But the reality is we didn't really serve. We didn't go out very often. It was a lot of self-service. We looked after our own at times. Even that wasn't great. We didn't do a home teaching. We did it out of duty at times, um, for being honest. But we weren't really engaged in the, in the community. We were really helping people to the size and scale that we really could. Not really, We were talking about it, you know, and how blessed we are to understand the principles. But a lot of us didn't really. We just didn't. From my experience, we didn't do it really. So you've asked the question. I think there's some of the answers. Why can't they see it? I think they do, but I think they're lost, Jim. I think the leadership is lost and hopefully they'll get it. They'll listen to this. And if they're listening, follow our advice and counsel. Go after creditors. We're not bothered about You know, crediting our Inside Out podcast, not bothered about that. Don't mention our names, don't care about that. Just do it. Just do the service because it's the right thing to do and because it's the Christ-like thing to do. And it's because if Christ was here, for goodness sake, that's what he would be doing, right? And just be open and honest. Go build your missions in Africa, go baptize people, and make the church a wonderful organization in the way we described. Where people will want to be part of the organization, and then you've got something good for them to come into instead of an organization that's trying to cover stuff up and, and, um, you know, mask this and mask that. Just be authentic and just, just do— follow, follow this advice, this counsel.

Well, uh, I'm sure we're gonna get very far if we're relying on the church to follow our advice. But there is our advice, there is our counsel. And I— we are out of time, but I appreciate very much your answer to that. And I think the fact that both of us got very excited in a very positive way suggests to me that we're on to something. So we'll keep talking about this in future episodes.

But one last comment, if I may, real quick.

Sure.

I would describe— this is not my— it was described to me by General Authority during the training. The church is a sleeping tiger, a beautiful animal with extraordinary power. The tiger, the tiger, right? But it's asleep. And I think Inside Out can, can be a facilitator in waking the great tiger up and realizing their full raw, this full potential. So, Sleeping Tiger, if you listen to this, wake up and be that powerful animal of extraordinary power that you can, you can be. That's it.

All right, amen. So until next time, we'll see you on Wake the Tiger.