Heretic: The Inside Out Review

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes and I'm here with the entertaining Mr. Jim Bennett.

Yes. Hello, Ian. How are you, sir?

I'm really good, sir. I'm really good. Uh, I described you as entertaining because you are. You're an entertainer. Uh, when the first very— the first day I met you in the Scotland International Mission many, many years ago, you were playing the piano. I think it was in Irvine, or I think you pronounce it Irvine in America, but Irvine. Yeah, we're entertaining. And, and before I met you, I heard you were very funny and you were an actor and, uh, you played the, these instruments, uh, a multi-instrumentalist and, uh, comedian and funny and everybody wanted to serve with you. And I was disappointed because I never got to serve with you. Uh, but yeah, you are aptly described as an entertainer. And I think that's an interesting word today, cuz today we are going to, um, review a movie called Heretic, which you have seen this week and, and I have seen. And it was, we'll get into it. It's a spoiler alert. So if you haven't seen the movie, um, perhaps it's a good idea to see the movie first and then listen to this podcast. But we're going to be discussing this movie, uh, called Heretic, which, uh, was an extraordinary movie. And, uh, Jim Bennett and I are going to give our thoughts and opinions on, uh, on the movie and in the context of also in the context of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Just a little bit of context here. The movie impacted me as it did with you, probably in similar or different ways, Jim Bennett. But I think the first thing to get out, the more easy, obvious thing to say is that I'll give you space where you can comment each, each, you know, section of this conversation in this podcast on the movie. Um, but the first thing I think I wanna share is that the movie's just a great movie. It's a great thriller.

It is.

If, if you are not a member of the church or you're not religious necessarily, it's just a fantastic story and, and not, and far better than I was expect, uh, expecting. Uh, the actors, the storyline, the, the, the, uh, psychology, uh, behind the thriller is, is quite extraordinary. So just as a, just to get your comments and your, your thoughts on the movie in general, Jim Bennett, what, what do you think just as a, as a thriller slash horror?

Oh, well, as a rule, I hate horror movies. I don't understand why people like to go and be terrified out of their minds. And, uh, there are a few exceptions to that. The, the horror movies that I like are some of my favorite movies of all time. Uh, probably the top of that list would be Silence of the Lambs. Uh, because not, I mean, the gore and the, you know, the jump scares, you know, somebody jumping out and yelling boo or those kinds of things. I just don't find them entertaining at all, but sort of the psychological suspense and and the intricacies of relationships that, that heighten that sort of sense of terror. Uh, those, I've always thought that that's really fun. And that's mostly where this movie went. And it sort of descends into gore by the end. And I just, I was just sort of able to stomach that, but that, that isn't I don't, just don't see how that's any fun, but the psychological cat and mouse game that Hugh Grant, I mean, Hugh Grant is just absolutely perfect in this role. Who, who knew that Hugh Grant, this charming romantic comedy guy would be so absolutely terrifying. And they use that persona, the Hugh Grant, I'm just a nice guy and a charming, lovely. Person, they use that to try to get your guard down. And when you realize who this man is and what he's trying to do, it's all that more terrifying. So as, as a movie, it's, it's, yeah, it's extraordinarily well done. And the implications for the church, which I think we'll discuss as we get down the road, I think are really interesting and really positive. I think that the negative reaction from the institutional church, which has issued a statement condemning the movie, and from a lot of active members who say that this movie misrepresents them or this movie is somehow an attack on them, I think that those sentiments are largely misplaced. But I think that that's, that's the next step in the conversation. I think we should focus now to begin with, just on the movie in general, which you apparently adored as much or more than I did.

I did. I, I, I, the, the psychology of the movie, and again, the Hugh Grant character. And, and if you look at his, uh, his acting experience, it is a humble Englishman, um, in a, um, kind of foolish kind of, um, um, roles, you know, that he's performed in the past. A little bit typecast actually, uh, on some of the stuff that he's done. Certainly not a character to play a lead role in a psychological horror movie, which what this was. Um, I'm not a huge fan of horror. A little bit of like science fiction horror, like, uh, Prometheus, stuff like that I quite like, but horror just for the sake of horror, that doesn't do anything for me. For me, probably like most people, it's the psychology behind horror, the The creature that you can't see, the, the, the, the, the, the conversation, if you like, leading up to, um, you know, the events, uh, I find quite, uh, quite scary. And this movie, for me on that front, delivered, um, bucketloads of psychological horror. Uh, and again, to your excellent point, uh, I felt, uh, lured into a situation with Hugh Grant's acting because he's very friendly, quite humble. Um, and basically the, I mean, the synopsis basically is two sister missions of the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, uh, received a, a, an inquiry or request to, um, uh, from Hugh Grant, who was playing, uh, the character Mr. Reed. Um, and I relate to this because we used to do this on our mission. Uh, if you remember, um, Together Forever video, uh, that came out, um, and the church engaged in a lot of advertising. And people, you know, in the Scottish media, you know, papers, et cetera, would advertise the Together Forever, uh, video. I think there was a cassette as well. You could play it, I think, as well. And also there's a video. Uh, and so people would read the advert and they would then contact this number, this free phone number, and, um, Mishra's would eventually respond and they would, uh, knock on the door of the person requesting a visit with the intent of showing discussing together forever. And we did that. You and I did that. And so that's, you know, the early stage of the movie where you got these two Mormon sister missionaries who are responding to this request and they knock on the door and you got this very friendly Mr. Reed fellow with a very, it looks friendly. His face is very soft. His tone is very welcoming. It's pouring down with rain. And that really hit me. There were so many things that hit me on this movie, by the way, is that on a personal missionary level, but also the psychology, it got to me. And then there's all the church stuff, which we'll get into in this, in this conversation. But there they were standing at this door in the pouring rain. And I remember being there so many times and desperate to get in. And most of the time, uh, in my mission when it was raining, I didn't care. This might sound a bit, um, I mean, I was a guy, I was not a sister missionary, it's different, I think. But I, I, I, a lot, a lot of the time I didn't, I wasn't concerned about who the person was. I just sometimes just wanted to get in out of the freaking rain. Right. Um, and just, and just somebody who would just, even if they listened or not, just sometimes to get outta the rain. I mean, that was my lack of, lack of faith. And so there the sister bitches are, they, they, they're knocking on the door and they rightly say that they can't come in unless there's someone else in the house, like a woman, a woman in the house. And he said his wife is in the kitchen making, uh, making some pie. And so they feel assured and they go in and they sit down and he is very friendly. And then this, um, psychological cat and mouse game actually begins. Um, and we gotta get into, into, into the, into the, uh, into the movie here. And so the first, um, again, just, uh, setting aside the fact that it's a brilliant movie and a great psychological thriller for anyone who was interested in that stuff, the first part of the movie gets into the, uh, conversations about, about belief and about, uh, the church. And he communicates the fact that he's He's interested in learning more. I can't remember the, you know, the exact scripting. You have to help me with my memory, but there's a conversation about the church and they want to share a message, et cetera. And he's talking about beliefs and what are the parts of the first section of that movie? Do you remember, Jim, in that conversation where they sat in his front room and he tells them that his wife's making a blueberry pie in the back, they're reassured. He's starting to express interest in the church. They're interested in sharing the message. And by the way, what's, again, this is a bit of a spoiler here. What's interesting was that there was a candle burning in the room. And can you remember what was behind the candle?

Well, the candle was a blueberry pie scented candle.

Blueberry pie scented candle. And I think that was very powerful as well. That was giving off that scent. And so the Sister Mishras are, uh, they feel, uh, I think they feel quite safe and secure. And this guy's very, very, um, jolly. And then he goes back into the kitchen cuz he's trying to find, you know, he wants to find out when the, uh, when the pie's being made. What other things do you remember from that first conversation in respect to, uh, what they were talking about, about the church and about religion in general?

Well, the thing that I found so so delightful about it was how much these sister missionaries felt like real sister missionaries. I mean, this, this is one of the things, uh, one of the reasons why I think that the Mormon distaste for the movie is somewhat misplaced. You know what, when, when the series Under the Banner of Heaven came out. Um, I wrote a, a number of lengthy— I reviewed every episode and my reviews were largely scathing and they weren't because I felt like the church was not being represented well. I thought it was just bad writing that the people didn't feel like real people, let alone real members of the church. And one of the things that was remarkable about this is this, as they were sitting there and as they were answering his questions, and even before that, you know, their characters are established when they're having this sort of taboo conversation about pornography. That's the first time you meet them and they're sitting on a park bench and they're having this conversation that maybe they shouldn't be having. And, and instantly I felt like I'm back on my mission again. I mean, how many times? When you're, when you're taking a break and everyone, you start to talk about something that maybe you shouldn't be talking about, but it's just you and your companion and nobody else can hear. And, you know, and I just thought whoever wrote this has done their research and understands what it's like to be a missionary. Those kinds of conversations, I thought, fit very much into, into my own experience. And then they have that experience where the women ask to take a picture with them, and then they end up pulling down their skirt to see their magic underwear. And all that never happened to me. I don't think that probably happened to you either. But that kind of open mockery of missionaries felt very much like much of my experience. So initially, as they're going into it, you identify with these missionaries. I don't know if anybody outside the Church would identify as strongly as you or I may have, but I sat there going, okay, I like these people, I understand these people, I recognize these people, and I claim these people as part of my tribe. I mean, this is an accurate depiction of what sister missionaries experience, what they're like. I mean, I had some problems. For instance, you know, when there's an elder that goes and looks for them when they go missing, they don't report in at the end of the day. And so this elder goes out to look for them. And the elder was played by Topher Grace, who's an actor who's in his 30s. So he's much too old to be a missionary. And he goes out and walks around without a companion. And I, and I was like, oh, now come on, that's— but, but those kinds of niggly kind of things didn't bother me. I was— because I was just so enamored of the characters and of the fact that, okay, we're Latter-day Saints are going to be treated as real people and not just real people, but they are the end. They are the protagonists. They are the good guys. They are the heroes. They are the ones you are rooting for. And you do spend your entire time rooting for them, hoping that these sister missionaries can survive this. And again, spoiler alert, uh, hopefully you're not listening to this, not expecting spoilers, because I think we have to discuss the spoilers. Uh, and when Sister Barnes dies, it's just absolutely heartbreaking. It's like, oh no, this is, I mean, she was my favorite of the two. And I thought, oh my goodness. Um, this, it had so much more of an impact because the character was so well-written and was so believable and, and so compelling. And so, you know, yeah, that first discussion, uh, it felt It felt an awful lot like a number of discussions that I had on my mission. Although I can't ever remember somebody like Hugh Grant sitting you down and saying, "Oh yes, I'm so interested and I'm so excited," because that would have been, I think, a red flag. It would have been a little bit of, okay, what's— there's something else going on here. Nobody's this interested in hearing the first discussion. And where the tone shifts, because he's just telling them, yes, I love, I love your church, and oh, I think it's great, and isn't this wonderful, and I want to learn more, and they're all excited. And then he says, I want to ask you, I think he said, an awkward question. I'm not remembering what the word was, but then he introduces polygamy. He says, I want to talk to you about polygamy. And I have a problem with polygamy and I have a problem with Joseph Smith having an affair with Fanny Alger. He pronounced her name Algar and not Alger. And I believe that he was using his religion in order to have sex with as many women as he could. And the tone of the conversation shifts and the sister missionaries give, I think, really weak answers to that. Which again is consistent with the mission experience. Whenever anybody brought up polygamy, uh, the goal was to change the subject as quickly as possible and get back to something that was more— get back to safe ground, because talking about polygamy was very fraught. And so I never actually did this, but a lot of my companions or other people that I was with would talk about polygamy and say, well, jeesh, it was just this sort of frontier thing where there were more women than there were men, and there were all these widows. And so it was just something they did as a stopgap measure, essentially, to— and, and it went away. And so we don't need to talk about it anymore. And I was always, even back on my mission, I knew that wasn't true and that wasn't accurate. And so when polygamy came up, I had a hard time shifting the subject and usually the discussion would just go off the rails and we'd end up being done. But again, it just felt very natural. And he brings up polygamy, and it's something that people who know about the church or anybody that— and you've said, Ian, many times that in the UK, for instance, all anybody knows about the church is polygamy. And so it's something that the church has a reputation for, and that missionaries don't really have a good answer for. And so you saw that sort of tension, you saw that sort of awkwardness, and that led into— it's really interesting because there's a guy named Taylor Petrie who's a marvelous scholar who's written several books about the Mormon LGBTQ experience, and he reviewed the movie., and he described it as a reverse temple ceremony that in, in the temple ceremony, the ritual of the temple, there's a ritual ascent from kingdom to kingdom. You go for— you, you fall, and then you go to, uh, the telestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the celestial kingdom. And back when we did live endowments, which are no longer a thing, unfortunately, Every time you move from room to room, there was an ascent. Each room was a little bit higher than the other room. And this is a ritual descent that you start there in the, in the welcoming and cozy living room. And then you move into this sort of chapel room where Mr. Reed unleashes the majority of his argument. About how religion is just a bunch of different iterations. He brings out the Monopoly board and says, this was ripped off from a previous game. And now there are other games that have ripped Monopoly off. And he plays the song by the Hollies, The Air That I Breathe. And he says, well, this was ripped off by Radiohead. And then it was ripped off by Lana Del Rey. And so everything is just an iteration of everything that has come before. And that's just the same as religion. And then you see on his walls, all these deities from all these other religions. And he says, see, all these guys were born on December 25th. All of them were born of a virgin and all of them were resurrected. And so by the time Jesus comes along, there have already been so many iterations of this. And as he started doing that, that's when I started to roll my eyes because that was sort of warmed over Bill Maher. Do you know who Bill Maher is?

Yes.

The comedian. He made a movie called Religulous, as in ridiculous. And he went through all of that. And that's just not true. I mean, the idea that they were all born on December 25th isn't true. The— I mean, it's sort of sanding off the edges of some very big differences between all of these creation myths that he's citing. And I just sat there and went, okay, this is going to be just this kind of Bill Maher, uh, straight ahead kind of great— I mean, middle school kind of discussion about religion. I mean, because I think some of those arguments, some of them are just really, really shallow and don't reflect a great deal of thinking. And then all of a sudden Sister Barnes comes back at him and says, okay, you're wrong, and all this is— and, and there are so many differences you're not talking about. And you're— and I just sat there going, oh my gosh, they're really going to take religion seriously throughout this movie. They're really going to engage with real arguments with substance. And I It's a little bit implausible because most missionaries wouldn't actually be that skilled at refuting that kind of stuff, but Sister Barnes was. And look at that guy, he's got a freaking bird head. I just was like, oh my gosh, this is going to be really fun. This is really going to engage with religious ideas in a profound and significant way, and I was not disappointed. Because that's exactly what it did. And it does not do so from a sort of didactic— it does not try to say religion is bad. I mean, Mr. Reed makes the case that religion is bad, but Mr. Reed is the bad guy. Mr. Reed— you're not supposed to identify with Mr. Reed. You're not supposed to accept his arguments uncritically. And assume that they represent the point of view of the author. Uh, and so there's a give and take throughout the whole thing where they go through all of this, even as they also go through some standard horror movie tropes and quite a bit of gore and quite a bit of torture and murder. And, you know, those are the parts that I could have done without, but I don't know that you could have made this movie without them. But, uh, on the whole, it was just so refreshing to see a movie that takes religion seriously, that doesn't just dismiss it out of hand, and that has protagonists who are capable of presenting the positive argument for religion in a way that I thought was compelling. And that I thought was very thoughtful and interesting, even though I didn't necessarily agree with some of their arguments. I thought it was a little bit strange, for instance, too, that there seemed to be this sort of hint that Latter-day Saints believe in reincarnation, the whole thing about the butterfly. When Sister Paxton talks about, oh geez, when I die, I want to come back as a butterfly and land on someone's hand so they'll know it's me. And I thought, well, there really isn't room in Latter-day Saint theology for that, but it certainly made for a lovely, albeit somewhat ambiguous ending. But anyway, so maybe I've gone too far into the religion here, but, but I just thought, uh, it is so rare to find such good, competent, solid writing in any movie, be it a horror movie, be it a thriller. It's usually far too easy to just sort of press the buttons and say, well, this is the formula. This is how the guy gets the girl. This is how, you know, James Bond saves the world. This is, I mean, there are so many formulas and so many tropes and movies don't usually demand much of us when we watch them. They're just, okay. Yeah. Let me escape from the world for an hour and a half. And, and this one, this one demanded quite a lot from us. This one was like, no, we're going to engage with you on very, uh, fraught and difficult questions. And we're not going to let you off the hook. You've got to go through this with us and explore these ideas with you. And you come out of the theater and you've got all of these different ideas that you're thinking about. And, and questioning. And, and I thought that is the hallmark of a, of, of what great art can do.

So anyway, no, this is really good. I, I've been listening and I've been making notes. Uh, for me, the movie hit me, uh, on so many levels. I mean, the, the psychological horror part, which, um, I thought was really well done, you know, just as a, you know, the main strategy, one of the main strategies that the movie intended. But on a personal level, uh, it, it connected with me as well. And you've gone through some of the key points, uh, of the movie, and I want to go back into some of those points and probably come to the point where you just left off and then take us both forward from there. So if you go back to the, the beginning of the movie You know, this shows the sister missionaries before they even, um, show up at Mr. Reed's door, you know, in the community. And it shows them sat on a park bench, actually, and they're talking about— I think before that, they're trying to meet people and people are not interested in talking to the sister missionaries. Well, I can relate to that, you know. On my mission, um, GQing, asking the golden question on the streets, was awful. Hated it. I'd rather knock on doors. I got spat in the face once by someone in Edinburgh just by approaching them and asking them a religious question. It was an awful experience and I hated it. I remember feeling, uh, odd. You know, people looked at me like I was, like I was the strangest thing on the planet and I hated it. You know, sat on the deck, back of a, uh, the lower level of a double-decker bus. Where you go to the back and there's seats at the side, seats at the back, and I'm sat there and everybody's looking at me and I look at them and look away like I'm some kind of, uh, plague. I just hated it. It was just awful part of my mission. I couldn't stand that, uh, side of the, of, of the mission. And if you remember the conversation they had on the bench, the park bench there, they were talking about, uh, sex. You got sister sex. They were talking about, um, size of, um, men's penises, actually.

Yeah.

That I thought was quite funny. I wondered if that's what the sissy bishops sometimes talk about. They probably do. Um, as, as the, as elders, I remember having a conversation. I won't mention my companions' name, but I remember talking about, uh, we, we were worried. I remember this conversation, one of my companionships, that we were so worried that, uh, that Christ would return before we got home and got married and had sex. And it was a real worry. I remember having this conversation and I was like, no, I hope not. And, and we're like, surely that won't happen, you know, because 2— beginning of the mission, 2 years is like forever. And there you are, 2 young guys, and same for girls as well, you know, you're— it's right in the, the peak of your, uh, of your, you know, your hormones, right? Um, and you're attracted to girls and you you just, it's just how, you know, it's just, uh, nature, right? Natural. And so, and you're at your peak and you, um, you, you know, you, you hope that the second coming won't happen before you get back and get married. And you can't have sex before marriage. You gotta get married. So you're looking at a year of dating and getting to know the person before you got 3 years to wait to have sex. And I remember having that conversation with at least 2 or 3, uh, companions whose names I won't mention. Um, and I thought it was quite funny, and I thought, I bet that, I bet that's what sometimes the sister missionaries talk about. Sure, they're not any different than the guys, and they talk about that. So I thought that was, um, a fascinating— the name tags, how they looked and dressed, I thought that was great. You said earlier that it, it, they looked and it felt very much— it took you back to you serving, uh, your mission. It certainly did, um, uh, with, with me for sure. The other thing I wanna highlight as well is that it, it, it becomes clear from that conversation on the park bench, for me at least, and, and later on, that Sister Barnes, uh, is the much more streetwise Sister Missionary. And, um, there's a story, you know, her background, there's, there's more of her, um, events that have happened in her life, life that have shaped who she is. And she's more, um, streetwise, more mature. Compared to Sixto Paxton, who at the beginning, um, seems, well, appears to be, well, is very, um, inexperienced in terms of life, not streetwise, very simplistic, um, not stupid or unintelligent, but if you go forward into the story towards the end, uh, uh, emerges as incredibly smart by the end, which we'll, we'll get into incredibly smart and intelligent., to try to figure out what Mr. Reed's intentions are and where his, um, plans actually go off. Uh, Mr. Reed's plan doesn't go to plan and she kind of, uh, discovers that. So I thought it was the interesting parts of, uh, that part of the, the, the, the, the movie there to kind of set the tone and set the context of the, the sister missions. And then fast forward, they go to the door, knock on the door, Reed lets them in, sits them down. Tries to make them feel comfortable.

Um, you could tell before though, they go to the door, the line, the line that I loved, and it's definitely something that the elders would say when she says, every flight of stairs we climb, that's how much hotter our husbands will be. Didn't you have, I mean, didn't you have companions that would say things like that? That's how much hotter our wives will be. The harder our mission.

Yes. Come to think of it. I did. Yeah. The more righteous you are. That was it. I remember. Thank you. I remember having conversations that the more obedient you were on your mission, the hotter your wife would be.

Right.

Oh my gosh. I remember that. Oh my goodness. Yeah, man. That brings back some interesting conversation. So again, this is another, lots of examples where this kind of really connected with me and, and in the theater, you know, it was probably half full. I'm the only guy there probably who's served a mission, right? So this whole movie means something quite different to me as I was watching it. And then to get into the conversation, the first part is, um, seems really normal and natural, even though there's an eerie look to that, to the inside of the room and the way the camera works, by the way, it's brilliant. It's a very old, you remember how many times you went into an old Scottish, someone, you know, senior folks home, uh, in Scotland and it was old and and nothing had moved. All the ornaments had never moved, and the, the, the, um, old-fashioned wallpaper and the curtains and the old-fashioned, uh, you know, the, the wood, um, uh, window panes, you know, very old. I thought, my goodness, this is like from like an old cottage or something from Scotland. So that, that, and the colors, the colors like these, these different greens and just like, you know, '70s style, um, look like it'd never been decorated in like, uh, you know, 30, 40 years. And how many places like that we're into? I think it's brilliant, um, uh, setting of context. And then to your point, they started talking about polygamy, and it— that reminded me of the conversation we had with, um, uh, with Michelle Brady Stone, which is our last podcast. And when he asked polygamy, when he asked about polygamy, it hit me because That was the thing that came up when I was investigating the church. You know, I'd heard the only one thing I heard about the church was polygamy. You could have more than one wife. You know, being a 16-year-old, you know, I, I was okay with that. The more, you know, more wives the better as far as I was concerned. Right. Um, you know, and so, but the fact that he raised it being even today the most, uh, significant, um, recognizable issue with the church still today, as it was when you and I were serving missions. I thought, my gosh. And then in the context of that last podcast we did with Michelle Bennett, which was brilliant, I just really enjoyed that. And the argument whether or not Joseph Smith was a polygamist or not. I just thought that, you know, they've done the homework. In fact, Jim Bennett, I did a little research on the movie. And although the directors were not Mormon, Julia Glousey is married to Woods, who is a producer on the movie, and Julia went to Brigham Young University. So there is a little bit of a connection there. So the people that were advising on the movie—

and I think the actresses who played the sister missionaries were former members of the church. Is that correct?

That's what I understand. Again, looking at the research. That's my understanding as well. Uh, other people can comment, you know, through their research, of course, but they're, they've done their homework. I mean, a lot of this was very, you know, to what you said earlier, it kind of, um, it was like a throwback for me into, into, into my mission. And then the polygamy thing came up, you know, on the, um, in the conversation. And then, um, as they start getting into that, uh, you know, conversation, um, he's talking to them about, um, You know, beliefs, et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, you know, talking to him about, um, uh, you know, what, uh, you know, what he thinks. He makes, uh, there's some of the quotes I think, uh, uh, are brilliant. He's talking about, you know, if he investigate a faith, uh, or, you know, to develop a belief, he said it's a simple choice that should not be made, made simply. And I thought that was great because you know, when I was talking to investigators, I thought it is, you know, this is such a, I thought at the time, a very easy religion to understand. You know what I, I, I think I was a little bit, uh, brainwashed maybe by then. And, and, and certainly I think I was church broken, my mission. And I, and I, to me it made so much sense back then. You know, I was in that cocoon thinking. Um, and probably forgotten or didn't understand the religion enough, actually. I think that's the situation. I didn't, as a missionary, and I want to get your comment on this as well. We'll get back into the story. As a new convert to the church, relatively new convert to the church, as a missionary, I thought I knew a lot about the church and I really didn't. I knew a lot about the scriptures, but there was so much more complexity about the church that a lot of, many rather, maybe not a lot, but a lot of investigators understood about the church or had a perception of the church. About its complexity, like polygamy and other, other things that I didn't really fully understand or appreciate because my knowledge of the church, even as a missionary, was far from complete. And I didn't understand all the historical and very, uh, actually quite, uh, dark, uh, complexities like polygamy, even as a full-time missionary. Whereas people that I was talking to who'd studied stuff about the church. There was no internet back then, you know, back in the '80s, but they'd researched it or they knew a bit about it. And there were people that, um, saw the complexities in, you know, about the issue around polygamy that I didn't fully, I say, as I say, understand or appreciate as a full-time missionary. I thought, here's the gospel, it's simple, uh, you know, accept it. It's a serious decision, so it's not something to be, you know, made lightly, but it should be an easy thing to do because it makes so much sense. And, and and that's why you should join. And it just, everything fits. That was my understanding of being a missionary, that we've got the answers to all the questions. We have the plan of salvation. It's the fullness of the gospel, the fullness, which meant to me we had everything, Jim Bennett. We had everything. There's nothing that was missing. Everything was restored. Everything. And it's a simple decision not to be made simple. So that line there, it really, uh, it really hit me. And what do you remember from, from the movie when they're in the room having the conversation and then things start to, to, to, to look a little bit eerie and start to become a little bit ominous. And, uh, the, the, the sisters at some point start to feel like they're trapped because right now he's been back to the kitchen, um, to talk to his wife about the blueberry pie. He's, he's come in that first time he comes back in, they're reassured, the pie's being cooked, his wife's back there. At that point, the sister missionaries feel okay. There's then, as the conversation ensues, polygamy comes up, et cetera. Uh, she's talking to him about, um, you know, about, uh, the beliefs. And then I think Sister Paxton says, uh, you know, we, she did, she's, she's reticent or reluctant to talk about it further. Without having, uh, Mrs. Reed in the room. And I think that she, she reminds Mr. Reed, oh, could we go, could we meet your wife? And I think then he goes back again for the second time. And at that point, uh, I think they, do they stand up and they, they look around and they go to the front door. Um, uh, I'm trying to remember the, uh, the, the timing of when they start to feel a little bit uneasy. Um, can you, what parts of the movie can you remember when it starts to get a little bit, uh, uncomfortable?

No, I mean, that's definitely when it happens. I mean, they, they get up, they go to the door, the door won't open. And I think the moment when they realize they're in danger is when they discover the blueberry pie candle.

Yeah.

And they realize there isn't a pie. He's lying about the pie. So he's probably lying about the wife and the door won't open and we're in serious trouble. And one of the moments that I thought was just so interesting, because he tells them at the beginning that there's metal in the house.

Yes, I remember that.

Which is intentional in order to say that this is somehow going to block a cell phone signal.

Yeah.

I'm not sure if the technology checks out on that, but I'll, I'm willing to suspend disbelief and just sort of accept it as part of the, the story. And so they go in and they tell him Oh, we've just gotten a call from the Relief Society. We have to go back. We're very sorry.

Yes.

And he gets angry with them for lying. He's like, I told you there was metal in the house. I know you haven't gotten any kind of phone call. I mean, here you are, you're telling me a lie. And I'm sitting here going, you're upset that they're lying to you? Everything you've done has been a lie up to this point. And you're lying to them to the point of torturing them and you're going to take their lives. You know, you got no moral high ground to stand on that they're telling you some kind of a fib to try to get out when you won't let them leave. So I mean, just, just the, the, the deliberate and slow building of, of tension and suspense and terror it's just so deli— the, the, the movie that, that was called to mind for me is a movie that I made my kids watch as when they were far too young to appreciate it. And it's Alfred Hitchcock's Rear Window. Have you ever seen Rear Window?

One of my favorite movies.

I just love that movie. And I, it could be considered a sort of a horror movie, but there's absolutely no gore. Uh, there's absolutely everything is just psychological. Everything is implied. And I remember watching it with my kids who were too young to appreciate it. And they kept saying, is something ever going to happen? You know, that's the movie where the guy, Jimmy Stewart, is stuck in a wheelchair. He's broken his leg. He's bored all day long. And so he becomes sort of a peeping Tom looking at the building across from him. And then he sort of discovers that one of the apartments that he's spying on has somebody who looks like he's murdered his wife. And, you know, and the tension sort of builds as he puts himself in danger by trying to investigate this. And, you know, just, just the very, the slow, patient build. We are conditioned, I think, by most movies today, particularly sort of Marvel movies. Something has to be happening. Every, every 5 seconds, something has to blow up. Something has to hold our attention. It's really been interesting because as I tried to introduce films to my children, I discovered that movies prior to, I'd say, maybe the early 1990s, uh, are paced very, very differently. And modern audiences do not really have the patience for the kind of slow build that Heretic does so well and so expertly. And it isn't even all that slow. I mean, it's, it's, you know, Rear Window takes a whole lot more time to impart information than Heretic does, because that whole scene in the front room, it's probably no more than 5 minutes long, if it's even that. So, but just that sort of patient building of the tension and here's one little lie and then here's a bigger lie. Then here's a, you know, it's like, oh no, you can leave anytime. But of course that door won't open. What do you mean the door won't open? Well, it's on a timer. It won't open until the morning, but you can leave through the back door. And by the time he says you can leave through the back door, uh, He's already lied about the pie. He's lied about his wife. He's confronted them on their lie about getting a phone call. And so the tension has just been ratcheted up and there's no release to it. And that's what makes it so much fun is that you're just sitting there and you're just on the edge of your seat and you're just, you know, biting your fingernails, wondering how are they going to get out of this? And, and just slowly, methodically, Mr. Reed tightens the screws and it just makes it such an excruciatingly delightful thing to watch.

When I was watching it, I was thinking of, uh, Hitchcock's movie, very similar to Rear Window, a movie called Rope.

Oh yeah. Rope's a great one too.

Rope's brilliant and very brilliantly made. Again, the camera never leaves the room, just like Rear Window. The camera's there in the room. I mean, I mean, if you had a movie and you said, you know, to the producers, the camera's never going to be leaving this same room, that same image, you'd think they were crazy. But Hitchcock pulls it off, and he pulls it off in rope. And, and the guys in the, in the, um, in this movie Heretic, I mean, the film is in the house, right? So, and it's brilliant. And I love the switchbacks to the looking at the walls and the windows and the, and the storm that's still You know, we're reminded as an audience that there's still a storm outside. And, uh, you know, the, uh, I think, is it snowing now? Is it clouds? Big rain? There's a, certainly there's a storm going on right now. And there, there are these two sisters in this house. So the second time they go, it goes back to the kitchen to check on the pie, or I'm not sure if that's the second or third time. There's a, there's a, he's gone for a while. And we learn that he goes out, he goes out the house because the sisters, when they got to the house, they had, uh, they'd locked their bikes at the front gate of the house. And we learned later that he'd been out and, and, uh, moved the bikes. Again, spoiler alert here. But going back to what I was saying earlier, uh, the, you know, second or third time he goes back to the kitchen, uh, he's gone for a while. We know that time is, is he goes outside. We'll learn that later. And then the sisters are there in the room. Uh, and, and it, again, to your point, the tension's building. You can feel the tension and the atmosphere. And then they learn they can't get outside the front door so that they realize that they're locked and they start to look quite afraid, rightly so. And then they make the way to the back kitchen. They go through the door and it's quite dark and these are walking along the, the, the, the, um, uh, the corridor then towards the, the back of the house and they see this shape of this man's head. And I jumped at that point. Uh, but as the camera gets closer, it's a, uh, it's a statue, statue or a figurette of a, um, an, uh, uh, an individual that's human size, human shaped. Um, and you realize that it's some statue figure, uh, just, uh, positioned there in the dark. And I thought that was, uh, interesting. And then what happens is they go further into the back of the house. And you get, you know, this is, it gets quite scary. They then open this door and the lights are on and you think, oh my goodness, they're, they're, they're okay. They've gone to this, this, uh, this room and it's a room that was quite extraordinary. Um, if you look at, remember that room that they went in into, there were two doors.

Mm-hmm.

You mentioned something, something really interesting earlier. You talked about in the temple. You ascend to different levels and you do that by physically, in most of the temples, many of the temples now, I think as well, uh, when you go from the celestial to the terrestrial, you have to physically stand up and you go in on some of the ceremonies, you go into a different room and then eventually you go from the terrestrial through the veil. Uh, into the celestial. There's an ascended level into the celestial. And then when those missionaries were walking through that corridor and they saw that scary statue thing, et cetera, we got past that point. They opened the door and the lights were on. Remember, they went from the dark corridor and they went into this other bit bigger room and the lights were on and it showed the two doors. And it showed what looked like an altar to me. It was like a table.

Yeah.

At the front. And there were benches both sides. Now, as a Mormon, former Mormon, as soon as I saw that, I thought of temple. We are now in the terrestrial room. I, I thought that, I'm not sure if anyone's thought that. And I thought, my goodness, this, Where's this movie going? This is gonna, I just, I, I was intrigued by where the heck is this going, right? This is, are we gonna talk about the temple? 'Cause you said at the beginning, you, you reminded me at the beginning that, um, you know, the sister, those girls pulled down the, uh, the skirt of the Sister Michery and they showed the, uh, the garments of the sister, sisters. I, I, I was, I was quite taken aback by that, by the way. I, I, I don't think that happens very often, but I can see why that would happen. And I remember thinking when that happened, by the way, uh, you know, a lot of people probably know that Bombers wear secret or sacred underwear and it's very private, very personal. It's got symbols on it, the markings, and they mean something and they're very sacred to, to active members. And so going into that, when the sister went into that room, it felt like they were going into the terrestrial room, a different, they were ascending. And because it looks so much like, um, like a temple ceremony. I mean, the thing was at the front where you could look like, it looked like a bit of an altar. And I was like, wow, this is extraordinary. And then, um, and the other thing as well, he said at some point, um, that I want, I don't want to forget here. So forgive me for jumping back at some part of the conversation. And I think it was when, um, he started getting into probably at this stage where they're in this room and they come in and they want to leave now. So they're in this room having gone through that dark corridor. They're very uncomfortable and they, um, realize that Mrs. Reed, uh, e isn't gonna show up or doesn't exist. And I think the phone call he calls him out on the phone call or tried to make— I think that happened earlier as well. That happened before they went into that room. I'm trying to get the, um, get the right pieces connected here. But clearly they're in that second room feeling very, very uncomfortable. And at some point he— I think prior to this he said that religion is a system of control, quotes. And that's an Axel Derek quote, I believe. I remember that. And, and because he was Talking about, and this is, I wanna highlight this as well, that religion, and that was in the conversation I had with him, I think in the first room, it controls you. It can control every aspect of your life. And I thought about that and that the church has significant control on its members. It controls what you think, controls what you wear, it controls who you marry, it controls your morality, it controls. Every aspect of your life. And the big premise of the movie, Jim, was the relationship between, um, religion and control and belief and control and belief and choice. And so there they are again. If I jump back to that second room, they're in that room, a conversation ensues, um, it, it, it then starts to communicate his intent. It You could tell there's a problem. He says they can leave all the time. He said, you can leave, right? You can leave. You're free to leave. And you know, when you go to the temple before you, right? It, yeah. Remember before you go to the, before you go to the temple for the first time, right? You, you take these, uh, temple preparation classes, which really don't prepare you. You go to the temple, you have the washings and anointings, you've got, you've got the holy priestly garment on you. You then go through the, in your own endowment for the first time. But before you go into the actual ceremony, before the ceremony begins, the officiator asks if there's anyone, uh, what's the words, the specific words, who are not here under their own free agency or don't want to be here, uh, please, um, leave. Um, you're invited to leave if you don't want to continue with the ceremony. Yeah. And I can't remember the words, but the words are—

I had a family member, actually, I'll be very vague, but I had a family member leave at that point.

Did you?

My God. They had gone through, uh, and— right. And I think they're still active in the church, but I don't think they've been back to the temples.

Right. So, I mean, when, when I remember that for the first time back in '86, this is pre-1990, Uh, I had no idea how terrifying that service was gonna be. If I'd have known, I probably wouldn't have gone through. But there you are. I mean, how can you possibly just get up and leave in front of all your fellow church members and your own ward? I mean, what a mess that would be. Just, just awful experience that would be. But I remembered when, uh, Hugh Grant, the actor, was reminding the sister missionaries in the movie that, you know, you can leave anytime. And if you wanna leave, you can't leave through the front door cuz there's a timing lock. It doesn't open till tomorrow morning, which I thought was Very weird, by the way. I mean, who does that? I mean, that's so strange, right? Um, uh, but you can leave through the back way. And he, so could you remind us about the conversation in that second room? And then could you take us to the point about the two doors and the two words that were written on the door, if you remember those words?

Right. Yeah. So, so that, that's, I mean, that conversation, that's also where he introduces essentially his whole religious thesis. I mean, he talks about religion being an instrument of control, and that becomes the summation of his argument, that that's all religion is. Religion is nothing but control. And that actually ends up being where, if you think about the structure of the movie for too long, it falls apart because, I'm jumping ahead here a little bit, But the prophets, you know, these women that he has caged, that he treats them like guinea pigs. You know, he gives them water in cages. He clips their fingernails and sometimes clips off their fingers. You have to wonder, where did these women come from? And the suggestion seems to be that they're previous sister missionaries that he's done this to. And, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't people notice that sister missionaries are disappearing at this house?

I didn't get that.

You didn't get that?

No, I didn't think they were sister missionaries because they would have been missed, right? Absolutely. So who did you think they were? Just women who he had lured to the house through different means, uh, not necessarily members or sister missionaries, but women that he'd entrapped kidnapped or lured to the house in some form, maybe a realtor or something. I didn't, didn't connect with me that they were in business or sister missions.

Well, well, that makes it a little bit better. But the, the, but the, the room, the altar room, it's been described in some reviews as a chapel room. But I think you're more accurate in describing it as an altar. It's very much like a temple altar. That's where he outlines this whole idea of iterations, that one religion is really just another religion only with, with new packaging or with some new little twist. But really it's the same story that's been handed down over and over and over again. And there's nothing to it, that all it is, is a system of control. And I think with lazier writers, that would've essentially been the message of the movie, but I don't think that was the message of the movie because Sister Barnes pushes back there. And later on, as they go on, it's Sister Paxton that pushes back. And eventually when they're near the very end of the movie, um, And Mr. Reed is about to die because he's been stabbed in the throat. It's all— this is also interesting. I don't know if you caught this. I didn't, but Taylor Petrie did in his review where he talked about this is a reverse temple ceremony. It's interesting where the injuries are, that Sister Barnes dies because she has her throat slit. As does Mr. Reed, whereas Sister Paxton has her belly slit. And if you go back to the penalties that no longer exist, uh, oh wow, you can see a tie-in there. And I think that's deliberate. Whoever did this really did sort of match it up with Mormon liturgy and historical temple practices. Oh my God, you do not catch that.

No, it just hit me just now as we're speaking. I had— oh my gosh, I had no idea. I did— I didn't see— I didn't pick up on that. But you're absolutely right, that makes so much sense. I think a lot of people will miss that, Jim.

Well, and most, most people will because most people haven't been through an endowment ceremony.

But even people going to the church who've been to the church, I don't know if they will immediately pick up on that. Maybe they will. I, I didn't, but it makes so much sense now. That is huge. I had no idea that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Wow.

The movie's just got up another point.

My God, got up another point. But I thought it was very interesting that at the end, uh, Mr. Reid is about to die and he says to Sister Paxton, let's pray. And it's Sister Paxton who says prayer doesn't work. Yep. And I thought, oh great. I thought, okay, we're, we're, um, you know, the hand has been revealed that this really is an anti-religious movie, that we've finally broken down the sister missionary where she admits that her faith isn't true. But that's not what she does. Because she says prayer doesn't work. It's not that prayer is going to heal everybody because they've done studies, although I don't think any such studies have been conclusive, but I'm sure somebody will hear this and say, yes, there are, and they'll point me to them, but save your time. I'll go take a look. I don't care. The point is, she says prayer doesn't work. They've done studies that show that people who are sick, they'll pray for the people who are sick and they'll pray for people who are not sick. Or they'll not, they won't pray for, there'll be a group that won't be prayed for and a group that will be prayed for. And they both have identical outcomes. The prayer doesn't make any difference. And she said, but then she goes on to say, but that's not why we pray. We pray because it's lovely that we, she talks about community. At least that's how I took it. She talks about it's lovely that we pray for each other, that we care for each other, that we demonstrate that we are in communion with each other through prayer. And I thought, that's a very sophisticated and intelligent argument, and it certainly describes why I pray. It called to mind— there's a movie, a lovely movie that has absolutely no gore whatsoever. Uh, it's called Shadowlands. It's the story of C.S. Lewis and his marriage late in life to a Jewish divorcee who dies of cancer not long into their marriage. And there's a moment there where C.S. Lewis is confronted by the other faculty members at Oxford about his predicament, and they say, oh, we're so sorry for what you're going through, and we know We know you're praying and we know that God will hear your prayer because you are so righteous and you are so faithful that I'm sure he will honor your prayer. And he says, that's not why I pray. He says, I said, he says, I pray because the need pours out of me waking and sleeping because I need to have that connection. And the line I will never forget is at the end of the speech, he says, I don't pray because it changes God. I pray because it changes me. And I've always taken that approach to prayer. I don't think I can change God's mind when I pray. I don't think I can alter reality when I pray, but I do think I can change and that I can more align myself with God through that connection, through prayer. And that's what I sort of took from her explanation for why prayer is still valuable, even though it isn't magic, even though it isn't going to make them not die from the wounds that they've just— they've just suffered. And I thought, okay, if nothing else, this is the moment where this movie I mean, there've been plenty of moments where this movie has demonstrated that it is a cut above your standard entertainment fare, but that's the moment where I think it crossed the line into great art, into something that really has significance and really is worth, uh, seeing, I think, multiple times. I'd like to see it again. I don't know if I will go to see it again in the theater, but I, I think when it becomes available on video. I'll probably be watching it multiple times because I think there is so much more to explore in terms of what the writers are trying to say. But any work of art exists independent of the writer's intent. You know, people, uh, I don't know who the author was who says, I never intended any of that. And I discover so much more about what I wrote when people who read it come back to me and say, well, this is what I got out of it. Because, because there's— it's a film, is such a collaborative art, you know, because we can talk about who's responsible for what this is. Is it the writers? Is it the director? Is it Hugh Grant? Is it the two sister missionaries? Is it? And the answer is yes, it's all of them together. And all of them are bringing something to the table. That, uh, that strengthens the, that makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. And so I, I just really, uh, I, I look forward to revisiting this movie because I think there's a whole lot more that we missed that, that, that's there to discover.

I agree. I, I, I couldn't stop thinking about it and felt, uh, I needed to go back. I, I wanna see at least those two times because there's so many things that, um, you know, I, I, I got and things that I missed, like what you just shared, like the, um, you know, the, um, the injuries, uh, and the relationship with the temple, the, the, the temple ceremony pre-1990 where it depicts, um, disembowelment and, uh, which terrified me. And the movement you make for slitting of the throat, that was, um, Again, that, that just really hit me just earlier when you were talking about that. Um, and then just, uh, and so forgive me for the structure here if I jump back and forward, but just listening to you and just looking, remembering what they discussed about the polygamy, which I thought was amazing. The, in the, going back, if I may, just to the first part of the conversation in the first room when he brought up polygamy, uh, Sister Barnes and Sister Paxton gave reasons for polygamy. Um, you know, it was, it was a spiritual mission or priority mandated by God, but it was needed to increase membership of the church. And there are multiple reasons for the practice taught in the scriptures and by Joseph Smith, et cetera. And you know, the widows, uh, men had gone off to fight in the war. Uh, there was all these women available and that the church wanted to increase its population, its members, and therefore there were, there were more children. And we know that, um, certainly from our research and speaking with, um, uh, Michelle Brady, who was on the podcast last week, and that wasn't true. Um, and if you remember on that last podcast, as I listened to Michelle and, uh, got to the point where I wasn't entirely convinced that Joe Smith wasn't the polygamist. But was open-minded to at least consider evidence in, in, in that, uh, in that, uh, direction. Uh, that one of the final comments I made, or questions I made, asked on the last podcast was, if you strip all that away, wasn't it ultimately Joseph Smith's, uh, interest in having sex with women? Uh, because in the movie they talk about funny, uh, alga of Fanny Alger, I think Alger's pronounced. And that I thought was amazing that Reed in, in the character had done some research at, uh, enough to learn about Fanny Alger, who was, uh, uh, Joseph Smith's first plural wife. And if you remember on the, again, going back to the podcast last week, I asked Michelle, wasn't it Joseph Smith's attempt to cover up that, um, wicked affair? Is that Oliver Cowdery described it as a, what did he describe it as?

A dirty, dirty, nasty, filthy scrape.

There we go. A dirty, nasty, filthy scrape that Joe Smith had this sexual relationship with Fanny Alger, uh, who was 15, I think at the time.

16. She was at least 16.

Sorry, at least 16.

Um, she may have been older, but, but not much older.

See, those ages are very important. So thanks for correcting that. And, and this is without the knowledge of Emma, just so we're clear. And wasn't it the reality that he had an affair with Fanny Alger, 16, 16 plus, whatever, and he tried to cover it up and turned it into something spiritual when in actual fact it wasn't? And I think Michel's response was that was pretty much it or close to.

Well, and so, well, well, I, I don't wanna beat up on Michel in absentia, but I, I thought. When I had a conversation with Michelle, um, in a previous— you can go and look on YouTube, there's this conversation. I'm getting absolutely beaten up in the comments. Uh, so I, I can handle that, but it's just always funny. Uh, I seem to provoke strong responses.

Anyway, you're doing something right then.

But, but in that conversation, she asked me, well, what is the one thing that you think is the best evidence for Joseph Smith being a polygamist? And in that conversation, I didn't want to answer the question because I didn't think that conversation was supposed to be about whether or not Joseph Smith was a polygamist. It was supposed to be about whether or not people like Michelle and people who have different ideas about the church should be welcome in the church. But I don't think Michelle could really help herself in terms of trying to get me, trying to sort of convert me to the idea that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, and I have not been converted. But I brought it up, I think, gently in our conversation, because the answer to that question, I think, is Fanny Alger. The answer to the question, what's the best evidence? Is what happened with Fanny Alger drove Oliver Cowdery out of the church. And we also know Emma was upset and kicked Fanny Alger out of the house. Whether or not it was a marriage or just an affair depends on how credibly you take some very late records. And, but Regardless, when we brought that up, and you, you asked her about it as well, we brought that up with Michelle. She told this story about being at BYU and there was a married piano player and all of the freshmen were sort of flirty and it kind of got out of hand. And then the piano player's wife walked in and everybody was a little nervous. And she says, that's, that's kind of how I see the Fanny Alger thing. And I went, well, really? Would that have driven Oliver Cowdery out of the church? I mean, there I think is— I guess we're drifting off topic here in terms of whether or not Joseph was a polygamist. But if Joseph was not a polygamist, you have to explain a lot of reactions. To what Joseph would have done, you have to explain why the Nauvoo Expositor even existed, because all of these people, the reason they left the church is because they discovered Joseph was a polygamist and were disgusted by it, and it's ultimately what led to his death. And then you also have to assume that all of the women who later testified that they were Joseph Smith's plural wives were making it up. And I just, I, I, I think that's too far a reach with all due respect to Michelle. Uh, so she did not convert me. So, um, but now that I'm wandering into polygamy, I'm trying to remember why we got here in the first place.

Well, I can, I can help. I think it's really good. I think it's a really good part of the conversation because the movie, certainly for members, generates all these questions and all these, these issues. The reason why I connected it to, to where you are going here is because in the movie they talk about, you know, Reid brings up polygamy. There's a conversation about polygamy and the Sister Mistress gave, uh, the, I guess, official, um, text as to why the church practiced polygamy. And so, you know, people will, will have these conversations. Members will talk about this and they'll get into those, um, tentacles, those, those conversations. The other thing I thought was interesting, again, just ju— cuz we've probably coming out of time and there's so much to talk about in this movie. Going back to that second room, let's, let's call it the terrestrial room, the chapel temple, uh, ceremony room. There was a, uh, I think at that point that the Sister Bishop's realized there's a serious problem going on here. He then starts to say that he has, uh, discovered, you know, he, he, he talks about those iterations of the different faiths. They're all different breakoffs. I thought that was really both funny and critical of the church. Where he described the Book of Mormon as a watered-down, diluted Bob the Painter type version of, um, the Bible text where he threw down, you know, that picture of the, uh, Bob the Painter, I think it was. Did I remember that correctly?

Yes.

Well, the Book of Mormon is a, is a, another watered, watered-down version of, of another iteration and, um, another regurgitated version of Christianity, um, which I thought he, it, it, whether you agree with it or not, it, it did it in a brilliant way. And he kind of showed the Book of Mormon to be, um, just like a comic book almost of, of a, you know, a previously, you know, written novel. Um, which I thought was, I, I think members of the church would find that quite, uh, insulting. And then in that, uh, room he says, look, there's nothing that, um, all these are different iterations. They're false. A lot of it didn't happen. You know, all these different deities that were born on the 25th, and I didn't, I didn't buy that, by the way. And then, you know, the intensity of the movie increases, and then there's these two doors, and, and they, they, they ask, you know, they'd like to leave. They would like to leave the house. And he said, you can leave at any time. Uh, you can, you can't get through the front door. The only way to do it is to go out the back door, and you have two doors., and then he wrote two words on the two doors there. One was belief and disbelief. And I thought that was brilliant because you've got these two choices and, um, it turns out in the movie that they lead to the same place. And sometimes two choices, you know, can lead to the same place. I mean, they didn't know what was behind. If you remember the movie, uh, the sister sisters have that conversation between each other and they're, they're discussing whether, you know, What's behind the belief door? What's behind the disbelief door? And Sister Barnes is on the left, Sister Paxton's on the right. I can't remember which, uh, which door Sister Barnes is at. Is that the disbelief door or the belief door? I think it was the belief door. And, uh, I think Sister Barnes wanted to believe, and I think in that conversation, the way it ensued was I think Sister Barnes persuaded Sister Paxton to go through the belief door. Um, and I think at that, in that conversation, they talked about the, um, the terrifying prospect of, you know, what's more terrifying, knowing the truth or not knowing the truth? Is it better to be in disbelief? Uh, you know, can you live in disbelief? And I thought about that and I thought, well, is that why the church members don't want to hear about all the issues? And I know that because I spoke to somebody that I'm really close to. A friend who's a close family member, like almost like a family member who's very active. And when I talk about issues of the church, they don't want to know. They know that there are issues. They know that there are real problems, but they said, Ian, I don't want to know. I'm quite happy living the way I am in the church, in the community of the church, without knowing the issues. And that, that, and I was blown away by that, but that was who they are and that's what they want and that's how they think and that's how they feel. And you have a lot of members, I think, in the church like that. And their belief is a choice. Okay, belief is a choice, notwithstanding all the issues. Um, and then the other side is to ask the questions and to test belief with empirical evidence. I think, um, you know, Mr. Reid Hugh Grant talks about, you know, what evidence is there behind prayer? And Sister Paxton talks, well, You know, it's, you know, clinical prayer doesn't work. You know, we pray to uplift and inspire each other. But going back to the point I was saying earlier, you've got this room, there are two doors. Uh, uh, Hugh Grant says, uh, Mr. Reed, the character says, you can leave through these two doors and basically have to make a choice. And I thought that was brilliant. You've got the belief door, I think on the left, disbelief on the door. That conversation happened between the sister missionaries. They then move to the left in the movie, in that room, and they then just open that door and they go down. They enter, I think, into the belief door, through the belief door, and they go down these, uh, these dark steps. Uh, there's no light down there. They turn on the cell phone and they look up and there's Reed smiling at them, all looking at them, and does the awful thing and just shuts the door on them. I mean, that was just— and there they are in the, in, in, in just with the, uh, light of the, um, uh, of their cell phone. So they go down there and they, there's a table and, uh, I'm probably getting into too much detail. I don't wanna spoil this for people.

And, um, spoiled the whole movie, haven't we?

Spoiled the entire movie. Uh, and we probably running outta time. We should probably do a second one. But the, the thing that I found interesting without going into the details of what happened in that room and and, um, Mr. Reid's efforts to prove that his, he, he discovered, he told them that he discovered the one and true reli— only true religion. All these other iterations had false, and that he had hard evidence, physical evidence that he wanted them to witness down there in that dungeon, that like awful room. And that this experience, this miracle that they would see, would prove that he's discovered the one and only true religion. And that came through, uh, to me quite strongly as well. Um, there's a lot of details there that I remember in that happened in, in that room. Uh, but for the interest of time, maybe we could probably wrap this up and kind of summarize it. We probably, we have destroyed the entire movie for people, but I think the one last thing is—

as the movie now at this point.

Yes. But one last thing I want to mention, uh, jumping right to the end, and I know we've been all over the place on this review. Um, I'm not a professional, uh, movie, uh, reviewer, as you can tell, but, um, I thought it was interesting at the end when, um, uh, Sister Paxton had been stabbed. And Reid was crawling, you know, Reid had been injured. I mean, he'd been stabbed by Sister Barnes and was bleeding. I think both of them were bleeding out actually. And, uh, Reid crawls towards Sister Paxton, who's laying there in, in the, um, in that room and is about to kill Sister Paxton, uh, by, uh, pushing the knife, you know, in towards her neck. And then, and then, uh, Reed gets hit, struck by this piece of wood with nails in it. And that hit me really hard because Paxton, who had been injured, um, earlier, been stabbed.

Barnes, I think you mean.

Sorry, Barnes had been stabbed. Apologize. Um, uh, was seemingly dead. Um, now had come back to life. And saved Sister Paxton's life by killing Mr. Reed. And that really hit me. That was, to me, that was like God had actually, uh, seen the situation and brought Sister, um, uh, Barnes back to life in order to save Sister Paxton. That just struck me big time., and I thought that was very powerful and very, um, spiritual and proved actually that God lived, that, uh, had the power to, uh, bring people back from the life, to save other people. And I, I thought that was a positive thing towards the church. I know the church's members have, have criticized the movie, but I thought, for me at least, that was quite faith-promoting that Barnes had been brought back to life to to kill Reid in order to save Sister Paxton. That to me, that to me was the miracle of the movie. Uh, the whole movie, that was for me the most, uh, extraordinary miracle that I think the movie is trying to depict. And if there wasn't, that's what I got from that. Um, I know we, we, we've been on talking about this for quite some time. We've been all over the place here, but any other, um, comments or thoughts on what happened in that last room? Before we—

Well, um, no, I, I think you've summarized what happened in that room pretty, pretty nicely. Uh, there's something I— maybe this is too long to conclude on, but, but I, I want to touch on it very quickly because, uh, when I was, you know, my goal as a young man was to be a world-famous actor. And I was a theater major at the University of Southern California., and I went on my mission, and then I wondered, geez, could I be an actor and still be a good and active member of the church? And part of it was that members of the church, and this has kind of been de-emphasized now, but culturally it's still there. Members of the church were told explicitly, don't go see R-rated movies, that an R-rating disqualifies a movie from having the spirit of the Lord in it. And Heretic is very much an R-rated movie. And I had a conversation, it was probably, it was my last interview actually with President Banks when he was my mission president. So President Banks said to me, this is our final interview. And so rather than talk about missions, I want to talk about what you want to do when you go home. Because I'm not going to have a chance to interview you as you're going home. And I said, well, you know, I've always wanted to be an actor. And he said, well, let me tell you a story, Elder Bennett. He talked about a time when he was home with his, one of his sons and said, hey, hey, uh, it's just us tonight. So let's just go do dinner and a movie. I'll pick the restaurant. You pick the movie. And they went to a movie and President Banks was offended because they took the Lord's name in vain a bunch of times. Turns out the movie was Terms of Endearment, which, uh, you know, it was a big Oscar-winning movie and it's certainly not, I don't think maybe it was R-rated. I don't know. I don't think it was. Anyway, afterwards he said, okay, well, what did you think of that movie? And he said, oh, it wasn't half good. Wasn't half bad. He said, really? Well, I thought it was terrible. I thought it was offensive and there was so much swearing and there was so much And he says, well, geez, compared to the other stuff you see out there, Pop, it's, it's not that bad. And he said, well, would you take a date to see that movie? And his son said, well, yeah, I would. Well, would you take the Savior to see that movie? And I stopped him there and I said, I wouldn't take the Savior to see any movie. To which he replied, well, Elder Bennett, that's why I don't go see movies. And he had just said, you know, movies, act, and I just was like, oh no, I need to find something else to do with my life. Although, as I thought about it, the reason I wouldn't take the Savior to see a movie is that if the Son of God appears at my doorstep, I'm not going to say, well, there's a matinee, we can just catch it. And I mean, I would have a whole lot of other— I wouldn't take the Savior to see a BYU football game either. It's not that it's an inherently evil activity, but I came home from my mission with that sort of weight of, geez, entertainment, it's, is, is evil just by its nature. And I sort of had to deconstruct that fairly early and realize that, that the squeamishness we have. About Latter-day Saints seeing movies with certain ratings and certain things that are supposed to offend us, certain words that we're not allowed to listen to, uh, gives sort of a mandate of heaven to the inner— to the ratings board, which I don't think they deserve. And it's cut us off, I think, from examining difficult questions and from and steered us into just, okay, we're only going to watch entertainment that doesn't threaten us, that doesn't challenge us, that's easy and simple and goes down smooth on the way down. And Heretic is none of those things. And so I, I really think Latter-day Saints that aren't willing to see this just because it's R-rated and just because they have a cultural expectation that nothing good can come from an R-rated movie are really missing out on an opportunity to, I think, strengthen their faith. I think this was a faith-affirming movie. It certainly was for me. It certainly helped me better understand why I believe what I believe and what lengths I would be willing to go to to defend what I believe. So I would heartily recommend it to anyone in or out of the church because I think that there is value there. And I'm grateful. I certainly— it seems you've, you've, you've seen the value in it and I've seen the value in it. And I would hope that others would take the opportunity to do the same. So that's my summation.

Yeah, Jim Bennett, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this. There's so much more to this movie that we haven't discussed or we haven't had time to get into. I want to go back and see it again, maybe even a third time. There are things in there which I probably missed, so I want to go back. We want to thank our listeners for being part of this podcast, for listening, their patience in terms of us going back and forward in terms of how we review the movie. Again, if you haven't seen the movie, Uh, it's best to see it first before you listen to this podcast. There's so much more to it. For me, it was also uplifting. I think that moment where Sister Barnes came back to life and saved Sister Paxton's life was, um, the miracle, I think, for the movie. And I, I still, um, are in touch with my spiritual feelings. So, you know, this dark psychological horror, uh, parts of for me at least, were quite uplifting. And of course, there were quotes to Godby Hinckley about, you know, he quoted the Prophet in there as well, and lots of extraordinary references about the church. But ultimately, as it was said to me when I was leaving the church, where no one had ever asked me, you know, why I'd left, someone did say to me, and Brother Wilkes, ultimately, um, your faith is a choice. You know, belief is a choice. And I remember that, and it is, it is a choice ultimately, you know, to choose what to, uh, what to believe. And like, I think most of the people, I like to get the facts, get the truth. Yes, I like to test things, uh, you know, scientifically. There's a big part of that in the movie. Um, and there's a big part of whether you can trust your feelings. In the movie. Can you actually believe something based on feelings, or do you actually need hard evidence? That also came through very strongly for me, at least in the movie. And for me, it's a combination of physical evidence, you know, empirical evidence, the evidence you can measure and check, and feelings and spiritual. It's all of it. Um, so thank you, Jim, for being part of this conversation. I thought the movie was great. Folks, if you haven't seen it, go see it. I don't think it's offensive to the church at all. I don't think so. You might feel differently. But again, thank you for being with us, and we look forward to joining you next week when Jim and I will do the next one on, hopefully, the Mormon musical, the Book of Mormon musical. So on the Friday night, Jim, before we saw the Book of Mormon musical on the Saturday, we went to see the movie Heretic. And we watched it in the town where the movie Heretic was filmed. Uh, in and around the Squamish area. And I think it was filmed in and around of, uh, near Pitt Meadows as well. And we watched it in that, uh, which we only learned about the movie where it was filmed after we watched the movie. Anyway, thank you everybody for listening and, uh, we look forward to you joining us on the next episode of Inside Out, uh, early next week. Thank you, Jim Bennett.

Thank you.