Ian on the Way Out

Welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett, and for many episodes now we have been reviewing Ian Wilkes's story, his conversion story, which is still remarkable, and he insists that the church saved his life, and his mission stories, which I share a number of those with him. We served together, and Ian couldn't have been a better missionary there. I don't think there was a better missionary than Ian Wilkes. And his time as a bishop, his time in a stake presidency. We've now reached the point where we need to discuss Ian's departure from the Church. And it's a, it's a sad, I think, painful story. But I think it's important to hear it and to understand it. And I also want to point out that I didn't feel it was appropriate as I was listening to Ian's story to try to interject any kind of correction or apologetics for the church. I wanted Ian to be open enough to tell his story in full without editorial comment from me. So what you're going to hear now is Ian telling his story, what led him out of the church. And future episodes, we're going to continue to discuss specific issues within the church from the inside and the outside perspectives. But right now, this is Ian's story, and I'll let him take it from here.

My daughter had done quite a bit of research. She came to me with a whole bunch of questions and concerns. My response was, you know, where did you find these— this information? She said the internet. And I went, well, there we go. That's the problem. And I basically discredited the internet saying, you know, the position of the line of the church is, and that was my position at the time, that if it's not on approved sources, then you can't trust the information. And so I, I, I, my response to my daughter was that the information that she'd read on the internet was false, misleading. Without even researching, I didn't even, um, take a moment to even investigate the sources of the links. I automatically judged that those sources were unreliable and untrustworthy, and she was reading essentially anti-Mormon materials, and that was Satan, uh, using the internet to, um, discredit the church and was actively and deliberately and strategically targeting young people like my daughter through the internet, the power of the internet, and that she, uh, was, uh, uh, being, um, misled by Satan, who is in control of a big part of the internet. So basically the, the ludicrous notion that Satan controls certain aspects of the global worldwide web system.

All right.

Yeah.

Anyway, that, what was the content of, of what?

Yeah. Uh, Joseph with polyandry. Um, a whole bunch of stuff on, um, you know, church history, the succession, as I mentioned to you. There was the polygamy side, Joseph Smith, polyandry. I think the thing that Maddie found most disturbing— sorry, just take Maddie's name out there— but my daughter found most disturbing was Joseph Smith having an inappropriate relationship with young girls at the age of 14 or thereabouts, and that the marriages, so-called marriages, weren't legal, weren't recognized. And that was a huge concern. She also read quite a bit on the, the, help me on this, is the Expositor. Oh yeah, yeah, the— what was it called?

It was called the Nauvoo Expositor.

I've read that, uh, I did a little bit of research on that in the back, and you know, in the past, and quite a few of those claims, or some of those claims, uh, has turned out to be true. Uh, one of the things that she read, my daughter read, was the destruction of the printing press. Joseph Smith had ordered the destruction of the printing press. I can't remember if he was involved in it personally himself, but the destruction of the freedom of press, because, you know, she is like so many, of course, is an advocate for the freedom of press, freedom of speech, expression, no matter how critical it can be. And the destruction of that press, printing press, and trying to stop that expository material from going out, that was something she researched as well. So a whole bunch of stuff. And then things like, other things like Cumorah. We'd been to the pageants a few times there, the New York pageants. And if you look at the Book of Mormon there, there was a huge battle that took place between the Nephites and the Lamanites in and around Cumorah. This was our understanding at the time, at least. And there's been no evidence, archaeological evidence found of the battle where I think in the scriptures there millions, I think the word millions had died. You have to check that, but I think millions is the—

Well, the reference to millions is in the Book of Ether with regard to the battle at the Hill Ramah, which was the Jaredite name for the Hill Cumorah. The church has abandoned the idea that the hill in New York is Cumorah, that they say that Cumorah is somewhere else, that that's the hill where Joseph found the plates, but that's not the hill where the battle took place. That's the current explanation.

That's interesting because for a long time that wasn't the position of the church. You said they've abandoned it. That means that they've they had a previous position on that, and that position was, that was the place. Absolutely was the place. And in fact, when I went to the pageant and spoke to— we were enthralled, coming from the UK, going to this pageant, talking to some of the cast members, some of the production people, a little bit starstruck, actually, thinking, this is incredible. Everybody made it very clear. And also, many people I spoke to over the years that that the Hill Cumorah was absolutely the place where this battle took place. And so, and so, you know, my daughter researched all of that and said there's no archaeological evidence to that, et cetera, et cetera. And then other things like we went down to St. George, St. George, is that right? And we went on the Brigham home tour. Brigham's got this home.

Yeah.

Home. St. George. And we went in on the tour, actually, and we were shocked to learn that, you know, I've been in that building, that home, shocked to learn that there were a number of those rooms were occupied by several of Brigham Young's wives. And from time to time, because we did ask the questions with a tour guide, which they weren't prepared to answer in front of the group, but did answer following the group tour and, and discuss quietly these, these questions that we had privately in, um, in a, in our own family setting. But Brigham would have these, uh, wives brought to him, um, we were told, uh, to his room. I found that quite disturbing. The other thing I found a little bit disturbing as well, and you might want to check this in terms of your knowledge of history, uh, and timing, uh, when Brigham Young, um, at that particular time, um, was the prophet, um, a lot of the members and people in general were struggling financially. You know, crops were failing,. There'd been a few years where it hadn't rained, you know, people were struggling, you know, to make ends meet. This was the message. This was the story actually in the talk, that Brigham Young was the prophet and leading people, or trying to lead people to be more frugal and to live within the means and to help each other's community through these very difficult financial times when all these these farming crops were failing at that particular time. I remember that message very clearly. And then I contrasted that with the quality of the home and the materials. There was a room there, one of the dining room had silver plates and silver knives and forks, silver cutlery. Brigham spared no expense in building that home. It was incredibly beautiful home, very prestigious, and actually built and operated— his operating costs there— built and operated in a time of great financial difficulty. This was the thing that I found quite striking. So this was the message that we got on the tour. Yeah, we were surrounded by this beautiful home. In fact, some of the material had been ordered from Europe. I think the plates came from Europe. Very expensive. You know, the chandeliers, not too grand chandeliers, but they were pretty impressive. And it was clear that Brigadier Muir was doing well financially and had concentrated quite a few of the funds, you know, in his favor. He had all these— he'd been into that building, he had come up the stairs, his room's on the left here, quite a big room, wide bed. And then as you walk down the landing there, you've got several rooms on the right. I can't remember how many, and, uh, they were occupied, we were told, by, you know, his wives. Um, I just found that, uh, just uncomfortable. Um, and my daughter researched this as well. She, you know, she went into some— did some research of this. Other things that my daughter researched was the, the, the interesting names between Moroni and Camorra and the island of Comoros, I think it is, in the Pacific Ocean. I may have mispronounced that, but Comoros, I think, or Comoros, et cetera. And the capital, you can Google this on your map, on your Google Maps, and you'll see that the capital of that island is Moroni, or Moroni, I think it is, uh, depending how you pronounce that. So there were some things like that that she, um, researched and brought to me amongst many others. She did research. I mean, she was, she's incredibly smart. She was super smart back then as well, 16, and said, Dad, look at all these things. And just, you know, must have been 20, 30 links, et cetera. And I wrote them all off without even, you know, even researching them. And so anyway, she wasn't satisfied with that. I regret not investigating at that time. However, she made the decision to leave. You know, she was 16. Very strong-minded, and our relationship with her was far more important than her activity in the church. So she, you know, pushed pretty hard not to go, and we respected that. So she stopped going to church, discontinued going to church. And, and so, but some of these questions that she had, they, you know, they weighed on me in my mind, and I would you know, try to understand them and reconcile them. And I couldn't. I didn't have any answers. And, and then, you know, while I was on the stake presidency, we'd meet with general authorities and I'd ask them questions, these types of questions and questions like, on the geography of the Book of Mormon. I remember I mentioned when you and I were chatting back in '87 on our missions there that Elder Ballard— and I've got the whole meeting there on record on the tape that you had.

He has a tape.

I do. I do. I recorded. I recorded the zone leader session for 2 hours with Elder Ballard, who speaks at least for an hour on that time. And he makes specific reference. He will not take any questions on the geography of the Book of Mormon. When I heard that, And I remember that distinctly. I thought it was very strange, very odd, because as a missionary we would study arduously about, you know, Book of Mormon. I got the scriptorian award. Um, my memory back then was extraordinary. I couldn't remember— you could read something. Elder Jacobs and I would go around, would tract, and I did this with all my companions. And, um, I would say read something from the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants. I could tell you which where it was.

Um, I, I did that with you. We, uh, Hinckley and I did that with you.

Yeah, did you? And, and so I, I, I couldn't remember every scripture, but I could tell you where it was on the page or, or roughly where it was in the, um, you know, either get the chapter or get the verse right or get close to the verse right. And I can remember it's like middle, top left, or here, wherever. And. And so we had a lot of discussion about the geography of the Book of Mormon. And I was— I got the scriptorium award. And you have to memorize— oh my goodness, I think it's 300 scriptures. I think the other guy that had got it, there's a few— Elder Tollworthy, you might remember him.

I do. Yeah, he still lives in, in Cape— in Cape Ness.

He is. He is. He is. And my— I think he was— he was a legend in terms of knowledge and memory of scriptures. It was extraordinary. So yeah, and so we studied just on everything, some strange stuff and all the, tried to memorize the pronunciation of the long names in the Pilgrim's Progress and the Hieroglyphic.

Oh, the, the, the, uh, Kolob and Karaminish, Koabim, Hakakobim. Hakakobim.

Yes, that's the one. Yeah, yeah. All these, all these strange names that we have no idea what, what, what, uh, you know, was meant. Uh, my daughter, just thinking about this now, she also researched the Pearl of Great Price and, uh, you know, the, um, you know, the problems with that, which are very serious actually. Uh, If there's anything that's really serious about, uh, Joseph's translating abilities, um, and integrity of his translation experience and process, and, you know, buying that material and mistranslating it, and reliable sources which have confirmed that he mistranslated it, uh, that, that's a real problem, I think, for the church, um, because the, the evidence by, uh, professional scientists and archaeologists and historians, you know, people who are reliable and trustworthy, have questioned that and done so without an axe to grind with the church. You know, it's no axe to grind with the church. It's not— these are not anti-Mormon people. These are people who have looked at Joseph Smith's translation of that material that was found. There was a fire at a museum, I think, and the material was actually discovered or refound.. And they checked the source, they checked the translation, and there was some problems with that. So, you know, this, all these things that, you know, she researched, and they generated questions which weighed heavily on my mind. And I kind of put them, you know, in a drawer somewhere in my, in my mind. I'd ask the question to General Authorities occasionally. I used to ask in a way that the members were asking. Um, so as not to come across it was me, you know, member of the Stake Presidency, um, had doubts or questions. I just, I didn't want them to think it was me. I said, you know, we've got people with these questions and how would you provide any kind of substantive answers? Not once, no. And they said, well, apart from that, these people need to have faith, need to stop doubting. Uh, there were comments and feedback during the training sessions, because we have training sessions from the leaders. There's a meeting called the Regional Coordinating Council. And if you're aware of that, and every quarter, area presidency, mission presidents, state presidents meet for a particular region, right? And state presidents, you know, go to those. And these items came up. And the line was to be more faithful, to pray more, to fast more, and to stop trying to uncouple— I think that was the word— was, or dismantle fundamental doctrines that have been in place that have served the members well for quite some time. You know, stay positive. And the other direction we got was you know, ask the faithful questions, you know, instead of trying to find fault with the church doctrine or history, ask questions that are more faith-promoting, um, and just refer the members back to fasting and the basic principles. That, that was the best that, you know, we ever got as, as leaders in terms of direction. There was no real solid answers to the questions because I don't think they knew them. I don't think they I don't think they themselves as leaders were as, um, committed students to the history of the church, frankly, as many of the members or people like me. In fact, my experience was, Jim Bennett, that most, if not all, of the general authorities that we worked with, um, or met, you know, and we're talking about over, over the years, or listened to et cetera, in meetings. Um, I don't think, with the exception of Elder Lund and maybe a few others, I don't think they— well, I know they didn't have the same depth of knowledge, uh, because they didn't talk about— they didn't get into— they didn't answer the question, they didn't get into the details. And I don't think they were interested either. Um, I don't think they were interested in getting into that level of detail. Um, probably for different reasons. Maybe it was something that would concern them, or they had questions or doubts. And I did have a conversation with the mission presidents a number of years ago. And we talked about, for example, the different accounts of the First Vision. And I asked, I asked the mission president privately, in confidence, we had a conversation in a room after a meeting, I was serving on the Stake Presidency. And I asked him after the essay came out on the different accounts of the First Vision, which of the accounts are the missionaries teaching in the missionary materials? And he said, well, it is not in the— what's the manual called? Proclaim My Gospel, is it?

Right.

Right. If it's not in that big standard manual, we don't teach it. And I, you know, I said, well, what, what, how do you deal with the questions about, you know, those kinds of questions? And he said, the missionaries stick to the narrative, that they stick to this line of thinking. And if people have got questions, then they, they, that the missionaries can't or won't answer, missionaries are instructed to stay, you know, on the line. And refer investigators if they have any other questions back to, back to him or the, or the assistants. The impression I got was that the assistants were receiving additional training. This is interesting that the APs were receiving— these are, these are, um, essentially two of your best missionaries, most committed in the mission who would receive additional training to deal with difficult questions related to this in order to share and spread the problem, you know, the resources, etc. So that was, that was interesting. I've not heard that before. And then another conversation with those two, there's a conversation with the General Authority, and another conversation with a mission president over the years, and it was clear from the conversations that we were having about church policies towards LGBT and doctrine in history that these individuals had their own doubts and problems. The extent to which—

did the authorities have their own doubts and problems?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so these were— it was clear from the conversation that they too had these concerns and questions, that others, um, many others had approached them on a whole bunch of questions. And the response I got was they don't know the answers. They, they'd been speaking to their leaders and there was no answers that were forthcoming, or no answers that they were able to discuss in, in public. Um, and one comment was that that they were wrestling is the word, actually wrestling with some of these questions or concerns because they felt, as it has as a leader, you know, I think the conversation with the General Authority or a mission president can be quite different between a state president or a member of state presidency and just a rank-and-file member. I think when the leaders go to these people with these questions and concerns and say, as I did, 'Um, you know, how do you handle these questions? You know, we've got these questions, we don't have any answers. When you are approached with these questions, what do you say? How do you handle them?' Um, and they said if they didn't have the answer, they would go, um, higher up. Um, and they were waiting for, um, answers. In fact, one of the responses that we're waiting for additional light and knowledge referring to the temple message where Adam and Eve are challenged and they're waiting for further light and knowledge. I think they're the words in the temple endowment. And so I think they were lost as well, and I think they were struggling with members approaching them and they had no questions. And I think there was wrestling with the issues themselves. Uh, you know, these, um, individuals are not pervious to these issues. You know, they're intelligent people. Privately, personally, they'll have questions and doubts. Uh, they probably don't share those, uh, openly, um, or with too many people. Perhaps they do privately with certain people they trust, you know, within these senior leadership circles. I'm convinced that happens. Um, you know, when you've got a couple of people at that level who are very close personal friends, um, and they talk about anything and everything. Um, for example, our mission presidents— and this is a positive, this is a good thing— an elder Gosland, if you remember him, Jack Gosland, um, he was the— I remember, yeah, Elder A.C. Carlos A.C. was, uh, I'd met him um, in Scotland, uh, and, and briefly in Salt Lake. Um, he was a, uh, an interesting fella in a positive way. I got along with him. Uh, he was the one that rebuked President Doan, I think, for having the missionaries work on the P-day. Callus, yeah, I think he was, he was the UK area president. And then Jack Gosland came in, um, shortly after, and Jack was very close to President Banks, of course, President Banks. And so you've got those relationships, you know, like what probably you and I have got, where you can talk privately. And I, I'm convinced they do talk about these things privately. That was, that was a loop. The reason why I know that, that, that was referenced in a conversation I had with a, um, a missionary president, um, and some of the relationships that he had at that level. Um, so over the years, as we've met these individuals and listened and learned, uh, from them and had meetings with them, sometimes private meetings, etc., you, um, you're able to put a, you know, a little bit of a, a picture together and they have— they share many of the same questions and concerns. I think they're struggling for answers and direction, struggling sometimes on a personal level themselves.

Yeah, John DeLynn talks about— well, not John DeLynn, Grant Palmer, who wrote An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. He talked about meeting with a general authority that John DeLynn later identified as F. Enzio Buscia, who the general authority essentially said, everybody knows the church isn't true. They think the church is a benefit to people so that they don't say that. But everybody in the Twelve, pretty much all of the Seventy, know that the church isn't true. I don't believe that, but I'm curious if you do.

I don't. I think that's completely wrong, false. I don't believe that at all. I think that's wrong completely.

So you believe that the leaders of the church are believers?

Yes, mostly.

Mostly. There are some that may not be, but mostly they are.

Absolutely. So working with these individuals, I'm convinced that they believe, notwithstanding the problems and the issues. And I think they've reached a point, position, especially the last few years, that these issues, as in this thing to come out, where they've been able somehow to reconcile certainly publicly and somewhat privately, the idea that the, you know, the reality that the church has problems with history, that the dominant church narrative is not strictly entirely true or accurate or reliable. I think they've accepted that. I think they're aware that the problems with the church are serious problems and issues. I think they would accept privately, many of them, that the church has made mistakes. Prophets and apostles in the past that Elder Uchtdorf referenced have made extremely serious errors and mistakes. I think they— I think it'd be fair to— without putting words in their mouth, I think they would accept that. And I think they'd also accept that the difficulty now that the church is in— let me go back. I think they'd accept that the reason for withholding and not disclosing the, the, the hardcore facts of the history, the real things that really, really happened, which are very different, a different narrative, and actually very uncomfortable because there were some very odd and very strange and very serious things that happened, um, in reality in terms of history. And I think they accept that, uh, to, um, to have come clean on all the issues before the, you know, before now, before the internet, would have been problematic for the traditional, conventional Orthodox member who had been, you know, following this narrative for a long time, notwithstanding all the changes that have happened, official changes that the church says, the church says, we don't change, but has changed. You know, over many, many years, I think they would say that, you know, the truth is too— the members are not ready for the truth or the facts. And, and now the, uh, the internet, which was, uh, attributed to Satan, is now, um, uh, also a tool of, of the Lord. And the Lord is revealing things through the internet, and people asking questions, and now's the time to, to bring these things to the surface. I think as General Authority said, now is the time to be more open and more transparent. I think the reality is that the internet has taken, you know, control of the narrative, and the church doesn't control the narrative anymore. They've lost that, and the internet is the thing that's behind that. And so these General Authorities now, I think they believe, they don't believe in the, you know, the original narrative that you, as we've understood it, But they, they, they accept these different nuances and different variations, but, but they accept them and they accept the reason that the members and the world were not ready to receive the, the, the, the ugly truth and the, the, the, the color that is part of our history. 'Cause we do have an extremely colorful history. It's a very peculiar is the word, history in many ways, and difficult. And we have moments in history, church history, which are quite dark as well. And we have moments which are extraordinarily inspirational. And it's just a reflection, Jim, of human nature in any organization, you know. It's just people are people. They do things wrong, they screw up, they make mistakes, sometimes very serious ones. You know, the church doesn't have, uh, you know, no one has a monopoly on, uh, on, on doing everything right or doing everything wrong. You know, people are people, they will make mistakes. And, and, and the church's, um, uh, in, in my opinion, inappropriate attempts and strategies and tactics to cover up that has been an own goal. I think it's been a huge backfire. Uh, all these, um, experiences, you know, my conversation with my daughter The research that she did triggered questions for me, and I, from then, Jim Bennett, I did my own research. You know, when my daughter left church, I really wanted to— it came as a shock to us. We struggled with her decision to leave. It wasn't easy. We supported her, but it was difficult. And so I decided to research these sources, and at the time, Uh, the essay, this essay on Raising the Priesthood hit. We had the talk from Hilda Uchtdorf. That was an extraordinary talk for me. Then the essay came just shortly after. I think it was a month later in the, um, uh, November 2013, I think it was. And then going forward, um, uh, trying to get the timeline here, um, some point around about then my daughter was researching. I then researched her sources and it opened up a series of rabbit holes. I listened to different podcasts. There were elements of the podcast that, you know, seemed plausible and genuine, which really resonated with me, and other things that were perhaps less so, things that were said where my experience has been quite different, you know, with the church. And so when I started to have you know, do this research, I started to develop serious concerns, questions, and doubts. I did raise them with, with, um, General Authorities and, and, um, leaders. Um, I, I got nothing other than what I've shared earlier, which was a problem. I then, uh, started the very— what was to be a difficult and sensitive conversation with my wife, who had been raised, you know, born and raised in the church, In fact, her parents are in the church and their parents are in the church, which is quite unusual for the UK. Typically you find that in the US or Canada, southern the US, you know, multi-generational families which exist now in the UK, but they're not— there's not that many, to be honest. And so, you know, I'm the convert. My wife's family has been in the church 3 generations.. And here I am having questions about, and concerns and doubts about the trip. And I did it based on, I opened the conversations with my wife on the research that my daughter had done and explained that, you know, our daughter had researched this and this and this, et cetera. My wife was already aware of these, these, these issues that our daughter had, of course. But I said I'd researched them myself and, and, and was, was coming to a similar conclusion as, as my daughter had similar questions. Uh, there were some things in there that, that weren't reliable, um, in the research, but a lot of it was. Um, and so the anti-Mormon stuff that we were taught was anti-Mormon, some of it, not all of it, was turning out to be, uh, factually correct or, or close, uh, to being reliable and correct. And so the The reaction of my wife was, was very, um, uh, worrying. She was upset, she was concerned, she was worried for her family, worried that I might leave the church, um, worried that I might not subscribe or commit to the same values or standards, which, um, um, uh, it is, is, is interesting considering we'd been married for quite some time. And we know each other very well. And the fact that I, uh, I've always felt strongly prior to joining the church, uh, to, to these standards and values, um, which she was aware of. But I think she was concerned that, um, I would be so upset that I might abandon some of the values and some of the standards and start drinking or smoking, which hasn't been the case at all. And so aside from going to church, I pretty much live the way I did. We pay tithing, but not to the church, right? We have our own private prayers, some of us. We still get together as a family, family evening, or we call it family time. We have family council. So a lot of the stuff, you know, we don't drink or smoke or take drugs. We still very much, you know, subscribe to the values.

I know that when you left initially, your wife and children, or at least those that are willing, still continued to go. That apparently has stopped. Has your wife officially left as well?

What happened was that as the conversation ensued with my wife and I started to, and there's a lot happened in terms of my wrestle and my struggle and my efforts to find answers to questions anywhere I could find them with the context that I have, relationships that I've got, and they were unfruitful. And then the, the, the, at the beginning, I think I was, in hindsight, I was too— I think I bombarded her and I was too intense with my concerns and questions, and that frightened her. I, I, I kind of unloaded some of it too much too quickly, and it, it, that was not the right approach. That was very much the wrong approach. Um, I found it difficult not, not to release or, or vent some of the frustrations or concerns that I had. And I, I should have, in hindsight, uh, regulated that, had more control of, of what I said and how I said it and how much I said it and how intense I was. Um, there were times where I just, um, you know, offloaded. Um, and in hindsight, that was wrong. Um, and it did have an impact on us, and it was concerning. And, you know, one point, um, it looked like we would be going, you know, separate ways. Um, and it's sad, you know, when I hear stories where marriages have broken up and families have broken up because one wants to remain in the church and the other one can't, and one doesn't. And I, you know, my heart breaks for those individuals. But I can understand that where One is, you know, we'll accept and live the gospel regardless, you know, the church, the gospel, regardless of the issues or concerns. And that's the position that we were in. And so I had to be very careful in terms of what I said and how I said it and how much time I spent on it. And what we came to agreement was, our agreement was that if my wife wanted to, I would remain active in the church. And so, uh, she said, this is going to be difficult, you know, how do you deal with these issues? And I said, I'll just bite my tongue, like I'll just keep quiet and not discuss it openly and then just, just go out of commitment to us and our family, etc. And she said, that's not right. She says that I can't ask that of you, you know, not to be yourself. And I'm a person that I can't not be me. I sometimes wear things on my sleeve and if I'm sad, I look sad, right? You know, I try and put a smile on it, but I often show my, you know, my emotion. And you know, we went like that for a few weeks and it was difficult. It was really difficult. And so what happened was—

Of course, what was the presidency at the time, right?

No. So this is afterwards. So when I was working, I was on the state prison for 3 years and then my work commitment schedule changed significantly where I was flying everywhere, you know, down to Houston, flying to Calgary and, you know, across Canada, US, did a lot of work and I was away for 3 nights a week and then weekends were completely gone and we took that decision for me to be released. It was a joint decision. It was the right thing to do and I'm glad that we did it. And so this is just, this is after I'd been, you know, released. And I have to say at the time I had what I thought was a wonderful, extraordinary relationship across the state. You know, I'm a very people-focused person. I really care about people, love them, and try to help them on a very personal level. I gave so much time and I, at the cost of my family time, unfortunately at times, and I regret that. But I know, but, but, and I was able to help people. And I had what I thought were good relationships. So this is after I was released, I was going to church. These conversations are happening privately. I learned quickly that I had to be careful what I was saying and how much I was sharing with Debbie. You know, the kids couldn't be around at the time when I have this conversation. It's a very difficult time for, for both of us. And I was going, and Debbie could see the pain on my face, and she could see I was struggling. She then said that we should ask the bishop to come out. We need to clear the air, and we need to meet with the bishop. And just, she says it was wrong for her to expect me to do this. And she said that, you know, she thought it was noble of me going to church, you know, together as a family, um, to, you know, to continue what we had done for, you know, our lives, throughout our lives. And but it was too much to ask for me to give up our personal integrity, um, and sacrifice that, um, and for me not to be myself, which for people knowing me, it's, um I just can't do it. I try, but I just can't not be myself. And I was struggling, and she could see that. And so she suggested the bishop should come around to the home, which he did. And surprisingly, when I said to the bishop, if Debbie wants me to continue to go to church, we talked to the bishop about the issue of the concerns that I had, some of which he shared, by the way. And had his own doubts and questions. You know, this is the bishop that reported to me, um, on the Stake Presidency. So he'd, um, you know, we opened up and said, you know, uh, President Wilkes— he'll call me President Wilkes— um, you know, I've had the same concerns and issues, and we've come to some understanding in our family. And, um, you know, he, he's the bishop, but he goes, uh, to church and does his best to, you know, to reconcile. And I said, well, you know, I said, I will do that. And then my wife said, you can't do that. And you know, right. And I said, well, if to the bishop, if my wife wants me to continue going to church, and I'll just sit there, be quiet, and I'll serve, and I'll do my best. And then she said, I, I'm not going to ask him to do that. Um, and so, uh, the bishop said, yeah, you can't— if you don't feel it or believe it, you, you, you shouldn't go. So the bishop was, was pretty good actually. Um, wow. Yeah, it was pretty good. I mean, him and I had worked together, uh, before. He'd come to me on a whole bunch of stuff, you know, helping members there in their own walk. And is a pretty good bishop, very good bishop, and, uh, a good man. And, um, and so we decided that I was not going to go to church, and so I stopped going. Um, and then what happened, Jim, was quite extraordinary. Um, and this was a turning point for my wife and my kids. I stopped going, um, and then something quite terrible happened. Um, uh, people started to— as my wife and the, and the other kids were attending, my 3 boys, they started to avoid my wife and to ignore her. And they stopped— they asked where Ian is, or where's President Wilkes. And they learned within a few weeks that I had stopped going to church. And then the whole relationship between the ward, many in the ward, not all, and my wife and my family changed quite radically where they were ignoring my family and they stopped asking about me. So my wife and the, and the 3 boys continued going to church for a few months after I stopped going. This is in 2000, give you a timeframe here, 2015, 2016. Prox. I'd reached that point where I just, I was at my end, you know. A lot happened before. We haven't got time to get into detail. A lot of research, a lot of questions, and trying to go to leaders and get answers, and, and, uh, conversations within my marriage, and difficult conversations, um, about which direction we should take. Um, heartbreaking, and, you know, tears, uh, in wondering whether we were going to stay together as a family. It was very, very, very difficult. Gone through all of that, I just couldn't reconcile and was just killing myself going to church. Um, I just, I just was quiet. I'd gone from this exuberant, you know, leader in the, in the, in the stake and, and, um, enthusiastic and you know, happy and, and, um, you know, it's fun, hopefully, you know, I'd have to have some fun in the calling and uplift people. And to a quiet person in the corner in Sunday school, just sat there quietly saying nothing, it was excruciating, you know, going through all of that. And, um, and then, you know, my wife and the boys not getting into the same research that I did, but what turn for them was the witnessing firsthand the behavior, inappropriate behavior at times, by some of the members and leaders that would actually, um, criticize me to, to my wife and the kids, the boys, saying that I was, uh, you know, felt sorry for her, that, you know, I was, um, stopped going to church, making a big mistake, being led by Satan, um, and, um, awful comments, terrible comments, you know, to her face. And my body seeing that, and then after a while, no one asking about me. It was like, um, you know, when, when a loved one or a spouse passes away and the members rally around, yeah, and sorry to hear that, lost so-and-so, how are you? Um, There was none of that. It was though I hadn't, I wasn't even afforded any interest from the members at all, at any level. Even if I'd have died, there'd have been more interest. There was at one point going forward, there was literally no questions about me or my daughter actually, who would stop going to church at that time. And the thing what changed for my wife, who no longer goes, to your question, and the boys no longer go, was the disgraceful attitude and behavior of some of the members and the lack of interest from some of the members in asking about, you know, how is Ian? How is, you know, my daughter? And the thing is, they saw all that, Jim Bennett. They witnessed that, and it was completely opposite to what they had felt and believed before. It was clear that the relationship with the church is dependent, in our experience at least, dependent on our activity in the church. When our activity ceases, uh, sadly, in our experience at least, uh, others are different, but our relationship ceased. And so when I stopped going, um, uh, almost everyone that I had connected with across the stake, and I was felt truly connected on a personal level, almost everyone disconnected with me. Isn't it almost— I'd say 95 to 98% of the stake had disconnected, either unfriended me or didn't reach out. Or, you know, I can't reach out to all of them. That's, you know, it's not different reasons. And, you know, someone stops coming to church, or someone's ill, or someone dies, you know, people, you know, the members call each other, rally round, etc. There was, there was nothing like that. Nobody rallied round, nobody was interested, nobody asked about us. And my wife and the boys saw that And that was, uh, that triggered their— the process from which they left. They— it was— they were disgusted. It was awful. It was terrible. It was unimaginable, um, considering the relationship that we thought we had, you know, for the members to behave like this. There was a couple of talks. There was one talk I remember I was told about where my name is specifically referenced in the talk as an example of somebody who's fallen from a height, misled by Satan, is an example of somebody who's been tempted by Satan. He's gone off the rails. He's failed as a father. He's womanizing or is involved in, uh, he, he wasn't committed. He wasn't. I find that, that was hurtful. Oh gosh, not committed. I gave everything, everything, everything and beyond, um, you know, to, to the church and to the gospel. I was all in. I was, I was the all-in guy, um, like many are. Uh, and that was hurtful. And, and hurtful comments that I was a failed father. I'm a very, very You know, my kids complain to me that I'm trying, and I'm not kidding, I'm trying to spend too much time with them.

Yeah.

Right. So in contrast to my upbringing where there was no father figure and it would've been wonderful to have a dad figure around to, you know, have that relationship we didn't have. And I asked my kids one time, what is it like to have a dad? And one of them started to cry and came up and gave me a hug. Teenager, uh, believe it. And said, Dad, I'm so sorry you didn't have this. He said, it's amazing to have a dad. I would really— when I said, Dad, you just admit my kids adore me and I'm so grateful for that. I'm very hands-on. And he said, Dad, I said, we spend enough time together. We're good, we're good for time. Um, we're spending it, we're spending, uh, enough time, sometimes too much time. And then to hear that I'm a failed father and husband and I've gone off the rails and I'm led by Satan and have fallen and been misled and deceived and I'm going to go to, I'm going down to outer darkness because I, you know, was on the stake presidency and to whom much is given, much is required and the ones who experience or receive greater light— who reject the gospel will be damned and condemned and go to this fiery hell, fire and brimstone, etc. Just awful comments about my family and about me. And as an individual, from people— one individual who I worked tirelessly to help, who just— I don't know, it was an extraordinary turn on things.

But.

And so I lost almost overnight Jim Bennett's entire community, and it broke my heart, and I cried over it. I couldn't understand. I thought we had relationships, and I didn't. And that breaks my heart. You know, I've come through that. I don't hold any grudges. I'm not like that. I don't have, you know, a bad feeling. I suppose I'm indifferent now. I am sad still about this experience. Uh, could have been different. I've not changed as a person. I'm still the same. You know, when I meet the senior members, some of whom avoid me, by the way, when I go to the mall, they, they avoid me. I— they want nothing to do with me. But the ones that have, you know, said hi, or I've said hi back, and I talk, as I hear myself, I've not changed. I'm still me. This is, this is me. And, you know, I'm, I'm You know, I, I, I joke with some of them that I'm still in touch with that, you know, and I'm not evil, you know, I've, I've not turned evil or, you know, not got scale of skin, nothing like that. And, and, and I've not changed and, and, um, I'm still me. And, but we've been cut off and, and, and now since, uh, my wife and the boys have stopped going, we've— and they've not gone for a while, and COVID helped, by the way, Yeah, COVID actually helped. It was a blessing for my wife and the boys because, you know, we started going to church. It was doing my video. A lot of the church membership dropped off big time. Some of the members haven't gone back and they've used this. I think, I think they've used this as a reason not to go back.

I think COVID for a lot of people opened their eyes to the reality that they have spiritual autonomy they didn't recognize. It was, oh, I get to plan my own Sunday and I get to spend it out in the mountains, or I get to spend it out on the lake. And I really enjoy this more than going to church. And I think it's been a huge wake-up call for the church. And I don't know that the church is responding to it because so many people have left and used COVID as that opportunity to do so.

Yes, yes. And we see this as a blessing, actually, as an opportunity. And since leaving, we are a lot closer as a family. Not that we weren't close, a lot closer. Relationships are stronger. We judge less. The kids have done really well, I think, to the disappointment of some members. And I'm or maybe surprised of others. We, you know, the family is doing really well, the kids are doing really well, um, you know, and, you know, we've not disintegrated or we've not, um, you know, moved into a, a, a life of, you know, criminality or, or, you know, debauchery or, or, or doing some crazy weird stuff, right? If anything, we're better people, uh, we're improved, um, in many ways more spiritual. We, we, we're, we're ourselves. We're not feeling as, as guilty as, as we did. Um, just one other comment before we close here. Um, when I, uh, stopped going to church, um, my wife, um, asked me to speak to her parents. Um, because on Debbie's side, uh, on my wife's side, um, we have bishops and, and members of stake presidency. They got bishops, at least two of my brother-in-laws are bishops currently. Um, they're all very strong in the church, very active. And so my task, uh, was to speak, and my assignment was to speak to Debbie's, um, mom and, um, and have that conversation. And that didn't go well. Um, my mother-in-law, wonderful lady, uh, at that time didn't respond well. Very concerned about our family and marriage and, um, concerned about the family staying together and me going off in one direction, or would I go in a different direction, and abandoned all these values, etc., and what would that impact on, you know, her daughter living so far away from the UK, here in Canada, and the kids. And was quite angry, I think, understandably, from that conversation that we had, very concerned. However, since then, um, I've been able to have some conversations with my mother-in-law, of which I think she understands some of the concerns and questions that I had. But I think for the most— for the big thing there which helped was my mother-in-law hearing her daughter's experience of going to church post me leaving, and her daughter and her grandchildren being treated in that way by members that should know better, or some members know better. And accepting, understanding that that couldn't continue, that, uh, they couldn't continue to go to church. And so, uh, they'd come around to the idea that, uh, my wife and the kids don't go, and they're generally supportive of that now, but were not orig— not initially, they weren't. And I think there was some blame on me, that, um, some concerns or blame that I would be the cause of a downfall of the family That's not happened. And if anything, we're a lot closer than, you know, we ever have been in regards to, you know, family. And that's where we are. You know, our life is good. You know, we've got a good balance, a lot happier in many ways. We've got a relationship with our active family members, which It can be a little bit tentative at times, but it's, it's generally quite good. And but we've lost, I repeat, we've lost an entire community.

That's a heartbreaking thing to hear. And unfortunately, we hear it far too many times from far too many people. And it's one of the reasons why Ian and I are doing this podcast. So thank you very much for listening. And until next time, we'll see you on Inside Out.