Ian Returns to Newbykipps

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I am feeling pretty good today, Jim. How are you? Down in Brazil, I think.

Still down in Brazil. Yeah. When this episode's released, I will still be in Brazil. I come back on Monday. Uh, but we had our first concert last night. It went really, really well. We have a dress rehearsal tonight for the two big stadium concerts we're doing. And then we have a Sunday concert where we're taking out all of the fun music and only singing religious music. So that should be— But, uh, we were talking about, uh, what we were going to talk about here, and you gave me a title for this episode that I don't understand, and I'm going to allow you to expand on it. You wanted to call this episode Ian Returns to Newbie Kips, and I don't know what a newbie kips is. I'm assuming it's a place. Uh, but can you elaborate on that?

I can, I can. That title won't mean anything to you or anyone else, but hopefully it will as I share this experience. So in context, we created Inside Out to help people, to build people up, to make people feel good, to navigate faith, navigate a whole series of experiences. And from the feedback we've had, I think we're achieving, and I hope that we're achieving, that goal, that objective. And part of that, as you know, is you and I and our wonderful guests that come on and our many listeners and viewers. A lot of this experience on Inside Out is driven and supported and helped enormously by sharing personal experiences. Sharing stories, our struggles, our successes, our faith struggles, our inspiration, our revelation, our, our joys and our sorrows. In, in so doing, when we open up our lives, we are able to help people, I think, in, in a profound way. And that is not exclusive to you and I. It's for anyone. You know, when we open our lives and we share our lives and all of our successes and failures, we, we, we learn something from that. We gain strength, we, we, we gain hope, and it helps us feel better that perhaps somebody else has gone through that experience and we can learn from that and it can help us. Uh, these are at least some of the goals and objectives that we set out to achieve with Inside Out. Uh, as I've shared often at times, Jim Bennett, that I'm And it might surprise some of our listeners that I'm a very private person and really don't, haven't wanted to or been interested in opening my life so much, being quite private and certainly not interested in doing anything where it might make me feel vulnerable. Thanks to you and others and especially my family, I've come to the stage in my life where I've you know, when you get to my age, getting a bit older, I'm not quite the end of my life, but you start getting to that, the, you know, as the sun starts to tip over into, uh, the later stage of your life, you start to reflect and think about, uh, the question I was asked by President Oaks when he interviewed me, uh, you know, how I do, how do I want to be remembered? And I want to be remembered for all the things that I've shared on previous podcasts.. And does that mean that I share more experiences and more stories to help people? In the past, I would have kept those experiences private. However, I'm at the stage in my life where I'm, um, more comfortable, uh, opening up and sharing experiences and yes, perhaps making myself more vulnerable. I've said at times that there are certain times where, um, uh, there is strength strength in being vulnerable. And when we open ourselves up again, people can learn from that experience and they can get strength and inspiration. That's my goal here in sharing the story behind this very unusual title that I suggested that you don't know what that means yet, titled Ian Returns to Newbykips. So let me, with that context, let me begin this short story, but quite a profound experience, if I may. So back years ago, a long time ago now, as I look back, as you know, I served as a young bishop in Scotland. You and I served in Scotland as a young bishop many, many years ago, 37, 38 years ago now. And that experience that you and I had in Scotland had a profound impact on our lives. It touched our lives in very profound ways. And we think about Scotland, our mission experience, all the time, frequently, often, you know, maybe not every day, but certainly throughout the week, I think about and reflect that some thought or experience on the mission. And Scotland became a part of us, Jim, you know, the people, the members, the spiritual experiences, the successes, and yes, all of the struggles and the pain and the challenges associated with serving a mission in Scotland in that very unique, distinct culture. You know, me from England being in Scotland, you from the United States being in Scotland, a completely different experience at a very interesting time in our lives. And as you know, missionaries at the end of the mission go home, and I did. I went back to England. But later on, as you know, I returned to Scotland with my family, something that we felt was right at the time, and have no regrets. It was definitely a wonderful decision that we made. And I found myself quite quickly, having arrived back in Scotland in the Edinburgh Stake, being called to serve as a bishop of a ward. That was a very humbling experience. It's a calling that I didn't want, and it's a calling that I found incredibly rewarding and joyful, but also challenging at the same time. I've shared my experience on the podcast that there were times, many, many times where I felt as a bishop, uh, overwhelmed and inadequate in trying to help the members who I felt their love, their trust, their confidence in me. And I never took that for granted and tried to not only earn that but maintain that in strictest confidence and still do so to this day, by the way, where those members shared very, very personal experiences with me that will go to, uh, with me to the grave. I will never disclose any of those personal, uh, experiences. And so these wonderful members, Jim, in this, in this ward where I was the bishop, who looked to me as a young bishop, as the father of the ward, by the way, you know, I'm, I'm a young guy, inexperienced, no formal training, uh, dealing with issues that I have no professional training on trying to figure out how to help these just wonderful, wonderful people who I absolutely adored and still do to this day. I think one of the struggles I've had in leaving the church was, I've shared this with you, this has been a real, uh, difficulty for me, is my deep concern and worry that when those members found out I'd left the church, you know, what would they think of me? Would they think less of me and would they judge me and would we no longer have that friendship? And that very thought or the idea, it would be just terribly heartbreaking for me. Uh, and I hope that's not happened yet, I don't think, and I hope it never happens. But, uh, but over this fairly short period of time and over the years I served as a bishop, Jim, I drew, uh, I, I grew very close to the members. And in that relationship, as we discussed with Greg Prince, when people trust you, they open up and they share their experiences and they share their troubles and their, you know, they, they, they've shared experiences from early childhood and, and many of those experiences have been quite traumatic for them. And we've cried in the office and we've laughed in the office at different experiences. And in those experiences and feeling the spirit grew very, very close to these wonderful, wonderful Scottish saints. That takes a toll on, can take a toll on an individual carrying all of that, listening to all of that. And I, it's, I can't go into the detail, of course, but the, the info, the, the things that were shared were extremely difficult to hear, should I say, at times. And the Bishop could talk to the stake president on these things at times, for sure. Uh, but even the stake president carries the, the whole weight of the stake. And so you, you know, there's a certain element of this burden that the bishop carries. And unless you're a bishop, unless you've been called to that, it's hard to understand or appreciate that, or even to imagine that, I think. Um, and this was my experience anyway. The experience was so profound. The desire to help these wonderful people and the feeling of inadequacy and unequipped, frankly, with the experience or the skills took a toll on me in a way that I could never imagine. I felt this at times huge burden., with the souls of these individuals that I at the time felt responsible for. You know, the bishop is the, um, the judge in Israel and, and, and certainly, uh, not exclusively responsible for the salvation of, of, of the saints in his ward, but certainly plays a, an important part, right? The bishop makes a lot of important decisions that impacts members' lives at a very, very profound level. As you know. And so within, I think about a year into the calling, I felt this overwhelming burden. And I, it was affecting my, uh, my thinking in terms of I was spending, uh, huge amounts of time thinking about the members, even during work, my personal time. I was thinking and praying and fasting for these individuals. And I took it very personal and I took their, uh, mental health, their salvation, their personal struggles very, very personally, probably too much. You've heard of method acting, right? You're an actor, method acting, right? There are stories where people like Daniel Day-Lewis are, are so, uh, involved in the role where they stay in that role, uh, for weeks, months at a time. And it, they talk about its effect of the mental health. Um, you know, these actors that, that, um, almost become like the character and there is a price to pay, uh, from what I understand that, you know, when you, when you, that kind of, that level of actor and you know more about than I do, you're, you're more of an actor than I am. Than I am. You've acted. And so as the bishop, you know, that saying in Scotland, you know, that motto, wherever thou art, act well thy part, which was the motto, I think still is the motto for the Scotland Ireland Mission now as it is. So what I got from that is that whatever you're doing in life, professional, personal, calling or otherwise, know the part, live the part and do it right. I mean, really immerse yourself in the experience. And I did that, Jim, like I did on my mission. I completely immersed myself in the calling, and I, at the time, I look back and I probably immersed myself way too much from a mental health perspective. So what happened was that a year into the calling, I started, I was at work, so I was in Glasgow, I was in a meeting, and something very frightening in this business meeting, something very frightening happened to me that terrified me. So it was through the day, it's a business meeting, and I felt, I had this, I look back now and I describe it as a panic attack, actually an anxiety attack. I didn't know what it was at the time, but I had this experience that I understand as an anxiety attack. And I was in the meeting and I couldn't breathe. I, I, I, I started to struggle for breath and I, I just, I, I, I thought I was having a heart attack. I didn't know what was going on. And I, I, I, I tried to draw deep breaths and the person, people in the room said, Ian, are you okay? I said, not really. I'm not feeling so well. I didn't know what was happening. I had a glass of water and I just couldn't breathe and I could hardly speak. It was the most terrifying experience that, you know, that I'd had. And it was, it seemed like it was out of my control. I went to the bathroom and I just couldn't breathe. And I was, there was just me in the bathroom and I was looking in the mirror and I was just I didn't know what was going on. I couldn't explain it or describe it. It completely come over me and it was just the strangest experience. I went back into the meeting and I said, I'm sorry, I can't continue the meeting. I'm not feeling so well. And they said, Ian, are you okay? I said, I'll be fine. I need some fresh air. And we put it down to some kind of, I think they're okay because they put it to some kind of sickness or physical health thing. Ian's not feeling well, let's postpone the meeting. And so the meeting ended and I went out, around Glasgow, through the day, walking up, around Glasgow town center and just trying to breathe. And after a while I came back to my normal self and it was just, I just couldn't, understand or explain what, what had happened or why it happened. I didn't feel, you know, when I came back to my normal self, I didn't feel, um, you know, nauseous, anything like that. It just returned and I seemed to be okay. I just, I didn't know what happened. It was odd. Anyway, um, about a week later, I'm in a, uh, another work meeting, um, in Dumfries where I was trained as a missionary. There's no relationship with the work or the missionary experience there. But I was at a meeting, in a one-to-one meeting with somebody, and the same thing happened again. I lost my breath. I couldn't, I couldn't, I just, I just couldn't breathe. I was doing deep breaths. They said, Ian, are you okay? I said, I'm not feeling so good. And I just felt this deep anxiety, this, like I'm panicking. And I'm trying now to articulate and experience it. It was just so, um, awful. Uh, and, and my, you know, I felt very, um, it is just a panic. Even now I'm struggling to describe it. So I left that meeting and I went to the bathroom and, and had and washed my face with water and I was sweating, by the way, I was sweating. Uh, and this meeting I was shaking and sweating and losing my breath. And I'm thinking, what the heck is going on? And this is like a week from the last incident. So I spoke to my wife, my family, and they said, Ian, you're having a panic attack, an anxiety attack. And so I'm like, well, what does that mean? They're saying, well, there's something happening where you are reacting to something. Are you going through some trauma or are you going through some mental health related issues? And at the time, I couldn't think of anything, Jim, because I'd rather jump in at any time if you have any questions here, but I couldn't think of anything in my life at that time that, you know, I was traumatized over. You know, I was involved in my calling and my work was up until this stage of my work, it was going well. You know, most of the meetings went well with work. Pretty good at the meetings apart from these two occasions. Anyway, um, another week or so, maybe a couple of weeks, uh,, uh, uh, happened after a couple of weeks, rather, another incident happened. Uh, and this time it was in a church meeting. I was in a bishopric meeting with my counselors. And so there I am in, in, in the ward and we are having a regular bishopric meeting and I have this panic attack coming over me again. This is like 2 weeks after the, the last incident, air episode or episode. And again, I start to lose my breath. I'm sweating. My counselor's in there, Ian, are you okay? And I'm like, what is going on? And I went to the, you know, the bathroom in the building, you know, wash my face. I'm shaking, Jim, my body's shaking, my hands are trembling, and I'm sweating and I can't breathe and I look terrible in the mirror and I came back in and the counselor said, Ian, are you are you okay? And I said, no, I think I have to go home. And so what happened over a space of a few weeks, maybe 2, 3 months, it got worse. It became more frequent and more profound and deeper. And I was, I thought I was losing my mind. And the other thing that happened, this is maybe 2, 3 months into this and maybe had maybe I must have had 6 to 8 episodes at this stage and realized there's a problem. There's something serious happening and I couldn't explain it. At this time, I hadn't gone to the doctor because why, you know, why not? Because I think I can handle it myself. You know, I mean, strong. Um, you know, I can deal with this. I'm not sharing any personal life with anyone. There's cert— there's cert— definitely something going on here, but it got so bad, Jim. I think the last 2 episodes, um, of that experience got so bad. I, I, I let, I felt a complete draining and loss, a total loss of confidence and self-esteem and self-worth. I was so worried that there were times I couldn't communicate. I, words wouldn't come out. I was trying to speak at meetings and nothing was happening. It got so bad that I felt there was some kind of breakdown happening, some kind of nervous breakdown that I couldn't explain. And so, and then, and again, this, this complete total loss of confidence, self-esteem, and this sick worry that this illness I've got is, is going to be increasing and more frequent and, and, and I'm going to lose, you know, my work and the impact of my family life, my personal relationships, and I'm going to be permanently impacted by these experiences. And so where we lived in Scotland at this time, we lived in the Borders in Scotland, and we were surrounded by these beautiful hills. And I would often go walking behind the hills. And by myself at times, sometimes with friends. And I found a great deal of spiritual strength and, um, solace, uh, in going under these hikes, these walks. And I'd been doing this for a number of years when we moved to Scotland. And certainly I did this, um, you know, when I was the bishop, I'd go into these places that I knew so well, these trails and hikes that were quite lonely, but quite, uh, spiritual for me. And I remember one time, uh, when this experience was at its worst, where I'm feeling something awful is going to happen to me. I'm going to not wake up one morning. I felt it was a life and death situation. It was that bad. I'm trying even now to explain how difficult it was, and I'm not doing a very good job because it was, I, I thought my whole life was over mentally. That was losing my mind, frankly, and that everything in my life would collapse. But there I was, I found myself heading out on a walk and I knew the hills really well and I'm walking through these woods and as I'm walking, I'm thinking about these incidents that have happened and as I'm walking up to the top of, uh, this, um, this, this slope below the brow, this, uh, these hills, I am overcome with the only thing I can describe as complete, total breakdown and depression and another panic attack, an anxiety attack that was as bad as all the other ones put together. So I stop walking, I'm trying to breathe, I sit down, I'm sweating, I'm worried so much about what this is and what it means. And I start to pray and, uh, I'm praying and praying and as, and as I'm praying, I'm, it's feeling worse and worse and nothing's happening. And so I, I stand up and I, I, I, I'm close to this, at this summit of this hill. And I just felt that I needed to complete my walk and get to the top and just push through this. And as I'm walking, I'm praying and, um, it subsides slightly and I get to the top of this hill that I know so well and I've been to this place so many times, this, um, this hill. And it might not surprise you that this hill is called Newby Kips.

And as I get to the top of the hill, so now we, we understand the title.

Now I understand the title. I'm at the top of this hill that I know so well. I've been to this place many times, albeit in different circumstances, feeling different, um, in the past than I did now. And as I get to the top of the hill, I start to utter a prayer in a way that I've never prayed before. I am begging at this point. I get to the top of the hill and near the hill there's an old, you know, people who've been to the UK will know that there is old stone walls that have been built up and down the UK by farmers, by Romans. You know, there's a long history of these stone walls. That are very old, you know, 100 years old, 200 years old. And at the top on the left of Newby Kips, there's a stone wall. And I'm at the top of this, this hill of Newby Kips. The view is just unbelievable, but feeling absolutely at the end of my tether, desperate, uh, feeling alone, depressed, dark, um, racked. I think about Alma's sculpture where he's racked with pain, torment. That's how I felt. I was so lost. So it was such a panic attack that had come back while I was at the top of Nuba Kips. And I felt complete despair in a way I'd not felt before. I can't describe it. I can't explain it. I was wracked with torment. And as I'm walking off the summit of Newby Kips towards this stone wall to the left. This is maybe 50 feet, maybe 25 feet. I step over the stone wall, um, and on the other side, I, uh, I don't quite collapse, but I crumble. And, and I'm completely alone. I can hear the wind blowing. There's no one around. And I sit in complete isolation on the other side of this wall. No one can see me. I'm completely hidden from anything. And I just crumble and just curl up at the side of this wall. And, uh, I'm, uh, praying so hard and trying to figure out what's going on. And then, and then it happened, the most extraordinary experience that I've ever had, uh, happened. The, again, the Alma experience is the closest I can, that I've read, that I can relate to, where at one point, at one stage, one moment rather, I was wracked with this torment of this mental, uh, health-related trauma. But I still didn't at that time knew what it was or why it was happening to me. And at that moment when I felt that complete utter despair curled up in a ball almost on the other side of this 200-year-old stone wall, um, I felt, um, something, um, incredibly uplifting and strengthening into my spirit, my body, my spirit. So much so that it completely removed this cloud, this dark shadow, this black darkness that had engulfed me. It was almost like, I'm, I'm not Joseph Smith, obviously, but it was almost like what Joseph Bennett describes, where he was, and this is how I felt, Jim, that I was doomed to utter destruction. I'm paraphrasing there. I really truly felt that whatever was happening to me was not going to stop. It was going to get worse. And at some point it would end in my doom, my destruction. I really believe that even if it was not happening, or even, even if that wouldn't happen, or wasn't going to happen. That's how I, that's what I felt was going to happen. I believed it that much that something terrible was going to happen and my life would be, uh, would come to an end. And I felt that at one point, at one moment on the other side of that wall, and then a moment later, this spirit I felt, this feeling, this energy, this entity completely, totally took away this feeling. Literally like they just grabbed this whole, uh, black cloud and literally dissolved it, completely lifted it from my body, from my spirit. And I felt a physical lifting of this, uh, uh, darkness physically lifting from my body physically, like I'm carrying a literal heavy weight. I felt lighter physically, literally, shoulders, you know, and I, and what replaced this darkness, which was just absolutely extraordinary and unspeakable in terms of trying to describe the experience, was complete and utter joy. And hope and strength. That was just extraordinary and, um, just so profound. And so the sense of, um, uh, love, the feeling of love and hope and I was going to be okay. And this complete removal dissolved entirely of every trace of dark shadow, left me completely. And I felt strength and joy and hope. Confidence had gone, had now returned. Not just, not arrogant confidence, but as President Banks would say, I think a humble confidence. I hope a humble confidence at least. Completely, totally replaced, uh, my cup with fresh water from this black dak dak, uh, gooey, uh, uh, cup that was just filled with awfulness and darkness and, and, um, anxiety, um, and worthlessness and uselessness and helplessness. And this experience was completely, totally, absolutely opposite to that. My confidence just returned literally in a moment. I felt stronger than I ever had done and hope in a way that I'd never experienced before. And, uh, what came after that, a moment later, was a, um, a deep sense of gratitude in a, in a way that I'd never felt before. Um, a gratitude, Jim Bennett Bennett, that I I never, uh, had felt understood or even experienced or even communicated in that way. Deep, deep gratitude. Um, that has never left me to this day. And, uh, all this happened on Newbigg Hipps. And so every year when I go back to the UK, I, uh, I, uh, make a special pilgrimage to Newby Kips. I go back and I climb that hill and I enjoy the views. I go alone, no one comes with me. Uh, my wife been with me, she knows this experience, she knows this place. And I go to this place, I know it so well, I go back every year, I don't miss. And then I go to the other side of that wall and sit in the same spot and I utter a prayer and give gratitude. And, uh, when I came off that hill at that time, um, I was a very different person, a very different person. Um, I didn't have any more panic attacks or anxiety attacks. I never went to the doctors. I never went to seek medical help. I should have, I should have sought help. I think it's important to get professional help as well. And so I came off that, I came off Newby Kips, The Hill, and I was a very different person and had confidence. My work didn't suffer, that the worries and the anxiety, my worries about the future, um, have never happened. And I, um, remain, um, I think I'm that person still that came off the, um, the hill there. And so I'm so grateful for whatever happened. And, and I have my own thoughts on, on what happened and why it happened, which have even more personal than what I'm sharing right now, which I won't share here. But there is a power and influence of God as an entity. It's an energy that's real. I had no— I want to say this, Jim Bennett— I had no control or power over what was happening to me. I had no control or power over feeling so depressed and so lost and alone and dark. I if I could have controlled that, I would have done. I had no power or control over that. I was not taking any medication. And, and in contrast, I had no power or control for that experience to, to happen to me. I, I, you know, that happened through forces that were outside of me physically. I wanna, I wanna say that. That's really important to say. I've never forgotten that experience. I've had similar experiences, but that one was quite different. I served in the calling better, stronger. As I look back, I wonder, I know what happens. I know, I know why it happened now. I think it was the, um, completely overcome and overwhelmed by the challenges of the calling, you know, sharing and listening and trying to help so many people. And at times where I couldn't help, by the way, and I felt I felt a failure when I couldn't help people. I took it so personally. And I think that was, you know, if the question is what, you know, what happened in, why did it happen? I think that the Bishop's calling was the sauce and carrying all of that and trying to help so many people. And again, at times where I felt I I couldn't help them and it broke my heart that I couldn't help them because they didn't have the answer. I didn't have something that they needed to help them. And I carried that. And I think that's what is probably the thing that created this anxiety. So now, you know, the story behind the title. So I'm going back to Scotland in the fall. Um, great to see you there. It would be great to get together, wouldn't it? You and I go back there. And if you go back, and if we ever go back, uh, to Scotland together and you have time, I'd love to take you, Jim Bennett, up to Newby Kipps. Um, and if you're not there this fall, of course, then I will go back. Um, I will walk that hill. I'll climb to the top. I will, um, climb over that wall, I will sit in that spot and I will give the same prayer that I've done since that time. And so that's, that's the story behind Ian Returns to New Beginnings.

That I, I am so grateful that you feel comfortable enough to share that story because that's so personal and intimate and, uh, And I think it will surprise a lot of listeners because you're the out of inside out. And the stereotype of people who leave the church is that they leave God, they leave all the goodness that they had when they were in the church, and that they become this sort of terrible Korah whore type person, uh, which is the polar opposite of who Ian Wilkes is and of the story that you had just shared. Has your perspective on that story changed since you have left the church?

That's a great question. Um, yes, I, I, I, I, there's some certain physical spiritual things that happened, which I've kind of touched upon during that experience. There are some other things I've not touched upon because, believe it or not, they're even more, uh, personal, you know, things that I felt and physically and emotionally on the other side of that wall. As I've looked back at that time, that is as clear to me today as it was back then, and I'm as profoundly grateful today as I was back then. I've learned that that experience, Jim Bennett, is not exclusive to the Mormon Church. I've been reminded, reaffirmed for me at least from that experience, that each one of us are children of God, no matter our culture, culture or background or tradition, that there is a living, um, energy being entity individual or individuals that are in this universe, a power in this universe that's so powerful it can touch the lives of, of, you know, small people like me, individuals like me on this planet in very profound ways. That there's a power and energy behind, behind, behind the universe. And I, I don't believe it's the modern God, you know, this, this very prescriptive, um, and, uh, understanding we have of, of who Mom and God is, etc. I don't think it's exclusive. I don't think you have to be a member of the church. I do not accept or believe that it, it's a confirmation that is the church is, is because it happened because of the church, or that the church is the only true church upon the face of the earth. I think I could have belonged to another organization, had the same service experience, calling experience in another organization, been impacted by those same experiences and had the same experience. I don't think it's exclusive. So my perspective on that has changed. Um, I, I've not shared this with anyone apart from my wife and now the world, I suppose. That's it. No one else knows about this.

Um, so just your wife and the world, my wife and the world.

And so this is, um, so this experience is not exclusive to me. It happens to other people. I know that it happens to other people in other religions. It happens to people who are not religious. Uh, you know, I've met people who are not religious who have had some very profound experiences. But one thing that ties them together is this this experience comes from a power and a source outside of the person's body, outside of their mind, outside of their spirit. You could argue, one could argue, Aline, it's your strength of your mind that, you know, was able to overcome. You're so strong in your mind that you're able to walk off that, walk off Newby Kips with this new reinvented Ian. Well, if I, if I could have, if I had control over that, I would have had control sooner. If I could control it and make it happen at will, some kind of controlling element to it, then I would, you know, I would have controlled it. I would have said, right, I'm going to have that experience. I'm going to make that experience happen to me because I, you know, I need to feel different. I need to feel better about things are about life. I had no control over that whatsoever. So these things happen outside the mind, the body, and the spirit, and they come from a source of great— I felt love and confidence and strength and light, so much light, and hope and gratitude, on a scale I can't describe. And this desire to not talk about it necessarily, because it's very private, right? But to help others. I felt stronger, Jim Bennett, to help others. I was more equipped, not with professional skills, you know, psychology or, you know, nothing like that. Nothing, no professional skill, but stronger spiritually to help people. I suppose to compensate for the lack of professional training, right? And so my perspective is bishops need training. People don't know what bishops go through when they go home and when they pray, when they completely immerse themselves, they're still individual, still human, right? Our perspective on the nature of God and deity and theology has changed quite profoundly. Exclusivity is gone. You know, um, doesn't mean any one organization, uh, is true over another. So, so in those ways, yes, I think you can find God in the Mormon Church. Absolutely. You can find, you know, this power, this energy, this, this entity, this being, this love in the universe in the Mormon Church. You know that. I know that. You found it. It's, it's, it's abundant actually in many of the lives. In the church. It really is through service and through love and kindness of these extraordinary members. You know, the members are amazing, right? And, and God is there for sure, but not exclusive to the Mormon Church. God is, uh, everywhere and, and can impact and influence and enrich people's lives this side of the veil, on the other side of the veil. In a religion and somebody who's not religious. So yeah, universal, it's available to everybody. And I guess the other thing is, I guess when you get to that point, um, there is a source there that can help, um, that exists, that is real. And by the way, I would also say that sometimes that doesn't happen, and sadly people don't have that experience, but I believe firmly, Jim, that it happens in the next life. You and I both know people who sadly have gone before their time. Sometimes it's their choice, sometimes it's not. Sometimes they get to the points that are so low, so desperate, and they don't have those experiences. But I believe that release that they have, um, I think there's different forms of release. There's physical release. I believe if, if I wasn't gonna survive physically, that, that experience would happen to me in the next life. So I believe that this, this extraordinary power and strength and love in the next life. And I've had a near-death experience, as you know, that I've talked a bit about. And I had a glimpse, a very small glimpse of what that looks like from an emotional, from a spiritual perspective. And the Nübekeps and the near-death experience that I had is very, very identical actually in terms of the feeling. So if people don't survive the physical and emotional turmoil that they experience here and the wrapped with so much, you know, anguish and pain and suffering. I think you can be released here through the experience I had, the types of experience I had. And if not, you are released and, and made whole, completely whole, um, in the next life. So They're a few of my thoughts in response to that very good question that you asked.

So as you're sharing this story, and we talk about the idea of, of sharing stories and, and, uh, I was trying to think of something that would be appropriate to share and I had thought of something, but your story at Newby Kips reminds me of a different story that isn't really a similar experience, but it sort of taps into the same sort of realization of God's power to reach into our lives and God's power to do that within the church and without the church. It reminds me of serving in my very first area in Scotland. I was in Livingston, Scotland as a greenie. I went to the mission home to get my trainer and Ian Wilkes was in the room and you took another missionary. You went off with Elder Casper and I went off with Elder Hanson, who ended up being your companion when you were my zone leader up in Inverness. But, um, I was serving with Elder Hanson and we were knocking on doors and We knocked on the door, and I remember his name because his name is the same as a home teacher that was very important to us. Mike Mason. He was a young man, uh, he had a young wife, uh, he was an evangelical Christian, and he just seemed like he had it all put together. We went into his house and he had this sort of great kind of vibe that this was a young hip guy that knew what was going on and was very kind to us. And he, and I was sitting there as a new missionary going, this is exactly the kind of guy that God wants in the church. I was sent here to get Mike Mason into the church because he's cool. I mean, I didn't think of it in those words, but that's kind of what it was. It was just, you know, I had assumed that the best people in the world are the people who join the church. And this guy just struck me as one of the best people in the world. So of course he was going to join the church. And especially since he agreed to read the Book of Mormon. And I thought, oh, we're home free. Well, he's going to read the Book of Mormon. So obviously it's going to hit him like a ton of bricks that this is where he has to be. And we don't have anything else to worry about. Well, I came out of that meeting, that first meeting where we placed the Book of Mormon, just on cloud nine. And Elder Hanson was not. And he had seen a bit more than I had. And I said, well, wait a minute, this guy's going to join the church. And he just sort of rolled his eyes and said, yeah, well, we'll see. Uh, I don't think so. He says, I think that because he was very clear that he was an evangelical Christian. Uh, Elder Hansen called them saved hitters. That was kind of the lingo, the dismissive sort of nickname that we would give people, uh, who were evangelical Christians. Anyway, so, um, Elder Hansen sort of proved prophetic because we went back for our second visit. And he looked at us very seriously. And he said, I have prayed about your Book of Mormon. And your Book of Mormon is a lie. Your Book of Mormon is not of God. And I, I'm very clear on that. So I've been out maybe 2 weeks, 3 weeks in country. You know, I'd come out of the MTC and, and I said, oh my goodness, well, I don't know what to believe. You're a young missionary saying that in an investigator's house, and Elder Hansen just about died. It was just, what do I do? Because I was sitting here and Mike Mason looked me in the eye and he said, this book is getting in the way of your relationship with Christ, right? And if you really want a relationship with Christ, you need to get rid of this book. And I don't know how we eventually left or how Elder Hansen eventually dragged me out of there, uh, but I was a mess. I was an absolute mess. And Elder Hansen was trying to sort of scramble to tell me some faith-promoting stories or say anything, but I was, I was like, I can't stay here. Very clearly, I'm the one, you know, this is a guy who has it all together. I'm just this dumb young schlub and clearly he's right and I'm wrong. And, uh, maybe I need to go home. And so., we didn't keep tracting. I mean, I was just too, um, unnerved and upset to keep going. And so we just went back to the flat and, uh, Elder Hansen said, you better call President Banks. So I did. I called President Banks and I said maybe 2 sentences as to what had happened. I mean, I didn't unload over the phone. I just said, I've met this guy. We met this guy and He told me the Book of Mormon's getting in the way of my relationship with Christ, and now I don't know what to believe. And President Banks said, I can be there in about 45 minutes. Can you wait until then?

Oh, wow.

Right.

And you were in Livingston, just, you were, yeah, you're just down the road from Edinburgh.

Yeah. Yeah. So Livingston is essentially a suburb of Edinburgh, if there is such a thing. Uh, but yeah, so he just hopped in the car and came straight to the flat and I just unraveled. I, I, I was just sobbing. I remember him reaching out and getting his handkerchief and I thought, boy, he's apparently done this before. Nice. Because, because he was, he was equipped with the right equipment.

He is.

To, uh, to deal with that. And I didn't know President Banks at all, really. I mean, I, I had met him when I arrived. Uh, I had had an initial interview with him that was fairly uneventful. And, and, you know, I, I had no real strong feelings about him one way or the other, but I just I didn't have anybody else to talk to and I didn't have anybody else to— and so then President Banks said, may I give you a priesthood blessing? And I said, I would, I would love that. And he blessed me. I don't remember any of the details of the blessing except for one where he said, I bless you that the tears you've cried now will turn to tears of joy before your mission is complete. And that blessing was absolutely fulfilled on a number of occasions. But the, the feeling I got from that was not, aha, Mike Mason is indeed of the devil and this is the true church. The feeling I got was, okay, Mike Mason was absolutely sincere and absolutely, you know, believed that, but so is Ben Banks. And, uh, the kind of feeling of, of this is somebody who's cool or somebody who's got it all together or somebody, all that kind of stuff. Uh, Ben Banks has that too. He's different. He's not this young hip couple, but he's clearly— there's something there. And, and so it wasn't, it wasn't a moment where I went, aha, you know, this is the only true church, I'm going forward, and I know all of that. It was, okay, Jim, you can't base your faith in God on somebody else. You can't base your faith in God on Mike Mason. But you can't base your faith in God on Ben Banks either. You can't face— the reality is you will find God in the lives of many of the people that you meet, if not all of the people that you meet. I mean, you don't have those kinds of interactions with all of the people that you meet. But that was enough for me to say, okay, uh, I very clearly can feel God as a result of what I'm doing in my missionary service, and clearly Ben Banks is a man of God, uh, I can stay. I, I can work my way through this. And, and so I did. That wasn't the end of my mission. Uh, but it was, I, I am the last time I told this story. I mean, it's been decades. Last time I told this story was on my mission, actually. It was in, um, Inverness, uh, when I encountered Elder Hansen and we had a district meeting. I don't know if you were there or not, uh, but I remember, uh, Elder Hansen and I I, we did not really have, I gave him a really hard time. It was 100% me because I was a really screwed up kind of confused young missionary and he was my trainer and I was, you know, I was the gonna save the world and he clearly wasn't nearly as righteous or wonderful as I was. I mean, just really, and I look back and I, I craned 4 times. On my mission. And so I saw that several other times when I was training, uh, so it wasn't necessarily unique to me. But I told that story in a district meeting and talked about how frustrated I was with Elder Hansen in response. And now how much time had passed where I see just how patient Elder Hansen had been. In the light of such an unsettling moment. And, uh, I just told Elder Hansen that I loved him and that I was grateful for him and that I was grateful for what he had done. And, you know, my mission is filled with so many moments of direct connection to God. And anyone that wants to take that as a testimony that the church is the only place where you can have experiences like that. You're welcome to do that. I, I mean, because I, I certainly had those experiences while I was serving as a missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But what I hope everybody would take from that is the realization that you have your own spiritual autonomy, and you have both the right and the responsibility to seek out God for yourself, make that connection for yourself, and have your intimate kinds of experiences with God, have your own newbie kips. No matter who you are, you can do that, and you need to do that, because any kind of faith that relies on, well, jeesh, I'll stay in the church because President Banks is a good guy. Well, jeesh, I'm going to become an evangelical Christian because Mike Mason is a good guy. And if your faith is based on somebody else and based on anything but a direct connection with the divine, It's not a faith that's going to endure. It's not a faith that's going to survive. And it's, well, or maybe it will, but it's not really a faith that's going to serve you. It's not going to be of much use to you. And if your life is easy enough, and I don't know that anybody's life is easy enough, but you may be able to get away with not developing that kind of faith. But I would hope that everybody would, because that is the only way I think that you get through life, is by finding that faith, by finding God, and by finding the strength that comes from relying on him. So that's, that's just kind of my addendum to your newbie Kip story. All right, but, uh, When I hear stories like that and I hear how personal and powerful they are, I am heartened to know that God loves all of his children and that that is not something that is defined by boundaries of a church.

Yeah. No, thank you for sharing your experience, Jim Bennett. A question for me. Do you think these experiences that we're describing, you've got a lot of experiences, I've got my own experiences, we each have our own experiences. Do you think these, these experiences are more likely to happen because of organizations like the church, meaning that the church provides the opportunity, the structure, you know, missions, callings, getting very close to people's lives. In a way that probably, arguably, maybe the church does a better job at that than most other organizations, frankly, in my opinion. And in those very close, personal, profound relationships through the structure of the church, now it's organized and it's emphasis on that personal service. That's quite distinct, I think, to do with the church. Not exclusive, but the church does it quite well.

No, I absolutely, I think the thing the church does, I think, almost better than anywhere else. I mean, I had never found any place that does this better, uh, is in that sense of community. Uh, when you, I was able to call President Banks and he was there. In half an hour. And, you know, the church has resources, and I'm not just talking about money, I'm talking about people. The church— I think it was Spencer Kimball who said that the Lord answers our prayers, but it is usually through another person that he meets our needs. And, you know, I have seen that so many times in the church. Church. Uh, just when I need something, just when I need to be lifted up, uh, the church provides a sort of, uh, I mean, I, I'm out here with the Tabernacle Choir and 500 people in Brazil, and I have this opportunity to interact with these wonderful people and be lifted up by them. And, and so yeah, I think that structure, does absolutely provide that kind of a benefit.

So, and if I, if I can go further, do you think in that structure, you know, in the very detail-specific, uh, activities and personal levels of service, even the conversations that we have with members, even the, um, the opportunity to, to get so close to individuals, their personal lives, where you are helping them in a very, hopefully in a very, um, in a way that is meaningful and uplifting and inspirational. So even we, albeit within the structure, but the personal close experiences that we have with each other in the church and the questions we ask and the lessons and the conversations. And the temple, et cetera, et cetera, and people opening up and sharing their joys and their pains and really getting to know people on a very, very personal level and to be able to help individuals at that level. Do you think that, um, the church, because it is structured like that to allow those kind of experiences, increases the chance of having those experiences? I'm not saying it's exclusive. I'm not saying it. Doesn't happen to other people outside, but because of the very detailed fabric of the church where it brings people so close that those experiences are more, uh, more likely.

I do, and that's one of the reasons why I stay, is that I have found God in this church. And I, you know, I've shared my experience, uh, where I very much felt like God said, this is, please don't leave the church. This is where I put you. This is where you can do the most good. And so that's very much a large component of my faith and why the reason I continue to worship alongside my fellow Latter-day Saints. These are my people. These are the people that God has asked me to surround myself with. But at the same time, I think it's imperative that we recognize that God's love and encounters with God do not stop at the doorstep of a Mormon chapel, that you can find God on Newby Kips and you can find God wherever it is you're looking for. So we're coming up on the end here and I've actually got to zip off to a dress rehearsal, right, for our concert tonight. But Ian, I am so grateful for you sharing that story. And, and it, it also— I'm— I had not thought about that Mike Mason story for well over a decade. So I— you've given me a lot to think about and given me a lot of perspective here. And hopefully, uh, those of you who are listening have had a had similar thoughts, but we're grateful for all of you. We're grateful for this opportunity to be able to have these kinds of discussions. And, uh, Ian, any final words before we sign off?

Just grateful to be doing this with you, Jim. Uh, this podcast, uh, that exists because of you and I, it's been a, uh, in some ways my salvation. Um, it's been a replacement to some extent, uh, you know, from the community that I lost in the church. And just grateful that we are focused on helping people. And if anyone can feel better and differently and stronger and have more hope and more inspiration from anything that's shared on our Inside Out podcast, and especially, uh, including, uh, our guests who come on and are so brave and so courageous to share their experiences. And that's what it's all about. So this podcast has been, um, a significant blessing in my life, and it wouldn't be possible without you, frankly. So I want to express my gratitude and love to you. It's an honor and a privilege to do this with you. Inside Out wouldn't exist without you.

Um, well, um, it was your idea, sir. It would absolutely not exist without you, and I can't imagine doing with anybody but you. So, so thank you very much, and thank you all for listening. I've gotta go change into my white shirt right now, but we'll see you next time on the next episode of Inside Out. Side out.