Ian's Mission: Trauma and Triumph

Welcome to Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett, and we've been recounting Ian Wilkes' story, and we've reached a point where his story and my story combine. Ian is now on his mission in Scotland, and this is where we met each other. I was also a missionary in Scotland, and so I'll leave it to Ian. We've talked about his first month, and we'll go from there.

So it was the first month was lots of spiritual experiences, lots of, it was tough physically. Company was completely burned out. Lots of funny experiences, but we worked very hard, followed the rules, worked extremely hard. By the way, the area president found out that President Dunn was making his missionaries work on a P-day. The General Authority was Carl C. Acey at the time, who I met and did some work with, proselyting with him one night, by the way. He rebuked, not in my presence, obviously, but I heard he rebuked President Dunn very sternly for making the missionaries work on a P-day. You're not supposed to, you know, make missionaries work on a P-day.

So, Elder, it's not— it's not at all healthy for the missionary to do that. There's a reason you have a P-day. I would like to see a P-weekend. Uh, in charge of missionaries. Well, on P-days, I mean, they always ended— they end at 5 o'clock, or they end after dinner. Then you have to go proselyte. I mean, you never really feel like you can wind down, that you have—

never do.

You never—

at least not ever. Yeah, I agree, never did. 5 o'clock you had dinner, 6 o'clock— and I've still got the white handbook— you had to be out. And you had to make sure you had got appointments or you tracked it, lined up between 6 and 9, right? And then 9 to 9:30, had to be in by 9:30. You had, I don't know, one of those half an hours before 10:30 was a review of the day and what's happening the next day. Then the rest of the half an hour was showering or getting yourself ready, et cetera, et cetera. You in bed by 10:30, prayers, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, you had another 3 hours on your P-day to work your butt off. And that was, it was brutal, absolutely brutal. So for the first month was— and then the second companion was Elder Payah.

Oh, I remember Elder Payah.

Elder Payah from New Zealand. And he was completely opposite. He didn't want to go out and work. He really didn't believe in it very much. It was a rite of passage, I think, for him and his family in New Zealand. A great guy, funny guy, very musical. He would, you know, when we knock on the doors there, he would, while we're waiting for somebody to come to the door, he would start rapping at the door. He would have this ability to tap his foot, you know, tap the Book of Mormon there that he had in his hands, and he would make a rap sound with his lips. Hands, you know, and he was there with the other door with his hands and his feet. Very musical, very funny guy, um, completely different and in some ways quite opposite Elder Awkward, and was quite happy to work very few hours.

Um, you know why I know that name? I didn't know Elder Payah, but Elder Payah was assigned to train Elder Romney, an heir Right. And I was called in after 3 weeks of an emergency move because they had not left the flat for 3 weeks.

Right. Oh, wow.

Right. They just sat there. Elder Payah kept claiming that he had diarrhea, and so he couldn't leave the flat. And Elder Romney finally figured out, if you've had diarrhea for 3 weeks like that, you'd be dead. The way he was describing it.

Anyways, yeah, it is the same person. Him and I got along really well. I, you know, I, I, I worked, I was out. He, he, he didn't want to put the work in, but we did. Um, you know, I was, uh, I was there for a reason. You know, I'd come out for a reason. I— yes, I didn't want to overwork anyone, but I wanted to work, and I wanted to, to you know, help people join the church and not stay in. I wasn't interested in that. Him and I got along. He was funny. It was a very different experience. Elder Rockwood, I got one extreme to the other, and I wanted to be somewhere in the middle, you know, working hard for the rules, having fun, not working P-days, doing some physical exercise, sleeping for an hour, for goodness sake, on a P-day without feeling guilty. Elder Piah would say, "Can't sleep." And Elder Piah would sleep all day. And so I'd take an hour. I remember writing or doing the phone-ins and asking later President Banks if I could just sleep for an hour on a PD. And he said, "Absolutely, of course you can." And I said, "Thank you so much." And I said, "I'll be a better missionary if I can get a little bit more, a little bit of rest." So Elder Piah was, again, a very different experience, very casual. It was very funny. He didn't know the discussions that well, and the conversations was mostly about New Zealand and being a Māori. He was a Māori, you know, great guy. Um, and, and, and when he worked and when he taught, he was amazing. He was very effective. But he didn't want to work all the hours, and I can understand that, you know. I think your idea of a P weekend, I think, would really appeal to, uh, you know, more fun missionaries like Elder Pye. But he was My experience, it was very good missionary, very effective, very funny. It made people laugh, and that's a great way of developing relationships. Elder Ruckers was much more strict and stern and more serious. Elder Pyer was— people loved him, and he was a funny guy and effective in many, many ways for sure. And then I went to— after that, I went to— again, it broke my heart to leave Dumfries. I just loved the the place and the memories there and asked to stay longer and unfortunately, uh, wasn't allowed. And then went to Dunfermline and we were whitewashed. And, uh, for those who don't know what whitewashing is, uh, whitewashing is when two missionaries go, uh, moved into an area, uh, for the first time. Um, the previous two missionaries go out at the same time and two new brand new missionaries who have never been to the area or don't know the area, coming to the area for the first time. So Jacobs and I had replaced, uh, I think, um, oh, was Jacobs you were with in Dunfermline?

Because you were with Jacobs again in—

I, I served with Jacobs twice. He was, uh, senior to me on two occasions. And, and so, and, and, uh, again, Rockwood was a— turned out to be a good experience in the end. Paya was a good experience. Jacob was an even better experience. He was very balanced. He was a great, great guy.

He's still one of my favorite people. He's just a wonderful human being.

I adore him. I love him so much. And, uh, he was such a great missionary. And we tracked and served in Dunfermline. Uh, we had a great bishop there called Bishop Jackie Watson, who was— had been a bishop for 10 years, I think, '98, '99, '10, 10 years. And one of the most extraordinary human beings I've ever met in my entire life. And I think about him often. I went to his funeral, Jackie Watson's, and, and there was people literally queuing outside the building that wanted to, to, um, celebrate and commemorate his life. An extraordinary human being. And he was the bishop in the ward at the time. And Jacobs and I had some extraordinary experiences together. One time we were tracting an area called Dalgeki Bay, which is, um, just east of, uh, Duffermline. And, uh, we, we we had some extraordinary experiences. And there was a lady that was, uh, seemingly, uh, and this happened a few times on my mission with me directly, or came into contact with this kind of experience, not often but sometimes, where this lady appeared to be possessed with an evil spirit. And she threw some knives, knives at us on the floor there when we were teaching across the floor. Jacobs was there, he'll remember this. And we gave her a blessing. I think Jacobs was the, he was the, um, more experienced missionary than I was. He gave the blessing, and this lady was— I look back now, I think she was mentally disturbed. But at the time, uh, President Dunn, uh, where we described the experience, said that she was possessed with an evil spirit. Um, in hindsight, she wasn't. Um, she was disturbed, mentally unstable. And we gave her a blessing, and one of her hands tried to lift our hands off. Another, another one of her hands tried to keep your hands on, on her head, and I remember that distinctly. We had a, uh, an experience like that, but we taught a lot of people in Dalgety Bay, um, knocked on those doors, and we had, um, uh, limited success. Two people got baptized that we came into. They fell away very quickly. The retention element in Scotland, as you know, was difficult. A lot of people joined, as you know, and many of them left sadly. Some stayed. My experience, most of the ones I baptized or joined the church have left for different reasons. Some have stayed. And so—

I think everybody I baptized has left. I don't think that there are anybody that are still active members of the church.

Right, right.

I have a member, President Bang, Oh, I'm sorry. Well, just the One Zone Conference. He actually went through some numbers and said the highest retention rate, uh, the lowest retention rate was Japan at 2%.

Right, right.

And Scotland was right in the middle. Scotland was a 12% retention. So I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Oh no, no, no, that's okay. No, that's fine. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I remember one month we had 9, I think, before you got out, you came out, we had 9. And President Donald was absolutely furious with us. Uh, 9 for the entire mission of 150 missionaries or thereabouts, it was completely unacceptable. And he put it down to the faith of the missionaries. Um, it was all on us. I felt it was on me to, uh, to be— I wasn't doing something right. I wasn't obedient enough. And boy, was I obedient and worked hard, but not enough. So I was lacking something, or we were lacking something. And so And so Elder Jacobs and I, we had two baptisms. Those individuals sadly didn't stay with the church, in the church. But his— my experience as missionaries was amazing. It really set the tone and direction. And if he's listening to this, I'm very grateful to you, Scott, for amazing leadership. He set the tone and direction and temple of our mission for the rest of the mission. Great missionary, loved the people. At that time, uh, President Dunn each month had been coming with revelation around different topics and subjects to focus on to get the missionaries more successful. One month was repentance, another one was faith, etc., etc. And we, uh, um, Jacobs and I developed some thinking around how to incorporate more charity, love of Christ, into the lessons be more, uh, Christ-like and, and more serving the community rather than just teaching them. And that was very much Jacob's inspiration and leadership, which I followed. And he introduced— which was shared and distributed across the entire mission, by the way, under the direction of, at that time, I remember now, was Elder Holland, because he came to the apartment. So this will have been May April, May, June 1987 in Dover, uh, Elder Samson, Elder Holland, I think it was the APs at that particular time. And so the whole mission focused on, uh, Elder Jacobs' charity concepts.

Was it Samson? No, Samoa that you tricked into getting into your— using your old bathwater.

Samoa.

Yeah, okay, not Samson.

I, it was the Dunfermline department where we had met Elder Samoa and Elder Widmeyer for the first time. They were our district leaders, and we traded off our tractor, you know, with those guys in the district. They were in Cooper, we were in Dunfermline, and Samoa came to stay with me, and I said, um, my bath water had healing properties. And you have to understand, Jim, at the end of a long day, I got pretty sweaty and pretty grimy. And I convinced him, because he was the new guy, he was being trained, by the way. Elder Widmeyer was training him. He was a greenie. I'd been out, I don't know, 3, 4 months. Jake had been out 8 months or 6 months. And Samoa came to stay with me. And I had a bath. It looked pretty grimy. And I said, look. There's limited hot water, plus there are healing properties in my bath water that you might, your body might appreciate. And he was convinced. I was astonished. He was convinced. And I said, put a little bit of water in to warm it up. But, you know, I would take a bath in my bath water. And to my shock and surprise, I I heard a splash in the bathtub and lo and behold, he'd stepped into my bath.

So, Simon, you told a story. I remember on my mission you telling me this story, except there was a zone conference. They were there to go to a zone conference. And so you tampered with his alarm and made him get up an hour early. You got up early. And then convinced him that he'd gotten up late. And you said, you've got no time, there's a zone conference, use my bathwater. You have no time to draw a bath, just jump in, use my bathwater. Oh, that's not what happened.

Uh, that's somebody else. That's somebody else.

So you spent an awful lot of time on your mission getting people to use your bathwater.

Twice. Twice. Yeah, twice. Uh, and, and, uh, who's the second guy? I think that was, um, who was that now? Um, it could have been Elder Roper. Who, who, yeah, who worshiped me, uh, hung in there. Yeah, I, I'm trying to remember. It's trying to write. If it was, uh, Elder wrote for Elder Samoa. My memory is not great, but, um, Samoa definitely bathed in my bath water. By the way, I, I, I wasn't the only one playing pranks on people. There were other missionaries, including Elder Holland, by the way, who, who often played, you know, funny pranks, you know, like cellophane on the toilet kind of thing, right? Um, funny, funny pranks, silly things, right? Is that— that was quite funny. But yeah, Samoa I'm not sure if it was the time thing with Samoa or the healing property thing, I can't remember. But anyway, he bathed in my grimy bathwater and I said, how do you feel? And he said he felt good, he felt refreshed. So perhaps there is some truth, Jim, to the powerful Iceland Blue Lagoon healing properties.

Well, I, that's a marketing opportunity for you.

It is. I should sell that.

Is that a marketing opportunity?

It is a marketing opportunity.

Ian Wilkes bathwater.

I, I should sell it. I should sell it. In fact, I, you know, download a free podcast of this and we'll, I'll send, I'll throw in a, a cup of, a cup of bathwater. Yeah. Yeah. So a couple of times. So, you know, I, I, I think these guys are gonna live a very long, time, very long life.

Anyway, because of the healing properties in your bathwater?

Because the healing property of the bathwater. So Jacobs and I, we had a pretty interesting time together. We met some interesting characters. It was the first area where I'd come across people who were actively practicing witchcraft and the occult. And we met a few people that were involved in that type of religion, as they call it. So there were some very interesting encounters, interesting meetings with a few of those folks. And I remember one time there was an interesting conversation with a wizard. He was a practicing wizard. And did he have a hat? No, he didn't look like Gandalf. He looked like you and I, these wizards. Are incognito. They, uh, they very much look like, uh, uh, like you actually. You look like a wizard, a wizard, a grand wizard. Yeah. And, and this chap was, uh, you know, it must have been in his 50s, 60s, and he was a grand wizard. And, uh, he, uh, knew quite a bit about the church and the endowment and the Freemason relationship and a little bit about Joseph Smith there, etc. And he, he described to us the relationship between the temple ceremonies or the Freemasonry-type ceremonies and witchcraft. In fact, he had aprons and other clothing, symbolic clothing that they used in their rituals and their practices. And he said that there was a relationship or some similarities between Freemasonry, some of the Protestant Freemasonry versions, which is the version that I think Joseph Smith went with, and, and the temple rituals that we have in the church. I was just— didn't— when I was listening, I didn't believe that there was a relationship, but he did show us some of the attire, some of the clothing that he wore, and there were some similarities for sure. If you know, if you remember this in the temple, there is— and you'll know this, of course, there is a statement in the temple where Satan is asked, you know, what is he wearing? And he makes a reference that these are to do with his powers and his priesthoods, if you remember that part. And so this individual, this wizard, saying there was a relationship between that part of the temple ceremony and what's the rituals that he was involved in. And so I was quite shocked by that and was quite astonished and didn't really accept it or believe it. And it was one encounter, but it had an impression on me. And I just remember thinking that some of the similarities with the symbols, one of them was a on one of the clothing items, I remember seeing the Big Dipper, the Ursa Major star formation. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think that was on the Salt Lake Temple at one point. I think I've seen some star formations and there was sun, moons, and stars on some of the the material that this wizard showed us. But if I understand, there's a number of references in the church material and on some of the temples, if I'm not mistaken, in relation to the constellation, the stars, and the sun and the moon, et cetera, et cetera. There's obviously references to that in the temple ceremony. But it was a complete eye-opener for me, and I didn't really take it seriously at the time, and I've not studied it since, but I understand that there is a relationship between that version of religion and Freemasonry. And we came across this often, you know, in Scotland.

Well, I remember you talking about Freemasonry in Scotland and the similarities between the two. Then at one point you said something like, I would show you the lion's grip, but it's too close. Does that sound right?

Yeah. Yes, the handshakes in Freemasonry, from what I was shown from quite a few people that I met with in Scotland, there are a lot of similarities between the temple hand gestures and some differences, the lion grip. And there was other handshakes and signs and symbols and tokens that the Freemasons have developed over centuries. Just a side point, the family, some of the families that I got to know when I joined the church, one family in particular were Freemasons. They'd been practicing Freemasons. This is going back to England now a few years before, and they'd left the Freemasonry and they joined the church. But this individual had kept the Freemasonry clothing, and we used to home teach him, and he described, not in great detail, but just talked about some of the similarities between the church temple rituals and ceremonies and Freemasonry. And I think what shocked me when I went to Scotland was the the extensiveness of the Freemasonry relationship and every community that I lived in in Scotland. As you know, there were Freemasonry buildings all over the place. They're everywhere. The compass and the right angle there, and it's everywhere. They're on buildings, et cetera, et cetera, and they don't hide it. They don't discuss it openly, but they're across all of Scotland. And we came across quite a lot of number of active and non-active Freemasons who went into quite a bit of detail on what they did.

Well, the square and compass aren't secret symbols in Freemasonry. That's a symbol that is used very often. It's used publicly and they describe it as the square and compass. And so, and obviously that has similarity to symbols that we use. So yeah, that's absolutely right.

So, so that was, that was some interesting encounters in Galchadi Bay, which Jacobs and I were, you know, were participants in, unbeknownst to us. You know, when you go into someone's home, you just don't know what to expect. You're encouraged, you're— there's some pressure on getting into the house, right? So you've got a very short window opportunity on the doorstep. You don't know the person, you have no idea what's behind that door. You're strongly encouraged and taught to get into the house to teach a discussion. And so at times you get in into a situation that you you know, where you find yourself in a very difficult or interesting conversation. And one of them was, and this happened often, and it happened for the first time with me in Dunfermline, was we— a gentleman allowed us to come into his home and we sat down and we started going into the Holy Ghost dialogue or the first discussion. He said, look, before we do this, I want to show you something on video. And so very quickly, in the space of a few seconds, just reached forward and pushed in a VHS video into the video. And we said, well, what is he going to watch, etc.? And he said, just wait and see. And we had no idea what to expect, right? And it was the Godmakers. He was starting to show us the Godmaker video. And I'd heard about it. And we were advised by President Dunn that anyone that wanted to discuss this or show this, that we were to, you know, get out the situation pretty quickly and I think it was with Jacobs at the time, and I remember who was with which companion, but we tried to leave and he was insisting that we would stay and watch this and that we would teach the false doctrine. I think a few minutes into it, you know, watching this, and it was kind of strange and bizarre, and I didn't stay. We didn't stay there, but we had situations like that where things would be sprung on us. And we would be often surprised at all types of questions and conversations from the occult to witchcraft to paganism. There was one particular experience that Jacobs and I had with the prophet. We met a prophet, a prophetess who was the prophet of the Church of the Holy Sunflower Seed. That sounds like a good thing. Yeah, Jacobs and I remember this. And so she was the prophetess of this church that was in that part of Scotland. It was the Church of the Holy Sunflower Seed. And, and we— it was a very strange, somewhat unusual teachings about, if I recall, spirits, human spirits exchanging spirits with animals. Humans sharing animal bodies and vice versa, which is some religions around the world believe that. So it was very unusual and for us quite strange, even for us as missionaries. I'm sure a lot of people found our teachings very strange. I know they did. But we met some very interesting people who were part of cults and witchcraft and practiced the occult and Freemasonry.. And it was— seemed to happen a lot in Dalgety Bay and Dunfermline. We had, you know, quite a number of people that we encountered who we met in that 3-4 months that we were there. So they were interesting experiences, and some were quite scary. That, you know, there was a lady that we met who was a witch and said that if we didn't stop teaching these that we were false prophets. If we didn't stop teaching these, um, falsehoods that Christ would be returning and be the Redeemer, etc., etc., she would cast a spell upon us, and that would, uh, our lives wouldn't work out very well. So we met others who were, uh, traveling gypsies who, um, were generally very, very nice and very sweet. But we had one lady who threatened to cast a spell on us. So we went through a, um, a period of a few months where we met all kinds of people, uh, from all kinds of backgrounds and religions. And it seemed to happen, um, disproportionately in the, in that particular area for some reason. I'm sure it's nothing to do with the geography, just that we seem to meet quite a few people, um, you know, these different faiths, different religions, different cults. It was, it was fascinating time for sure.

Very cool. I don't recall ever meeting anybody who tried to cast a spell on me, but I'm wondering, was she successful? And did she end up ruining your life with the spell that she cast?

I don't think so, although I'm, you know, I'm still alive and maybe the spell is yet to, you know, take effect. But I'll let you know. And if you don't hear from me suddenly, then I guess the spell has worked. But so far, I feel good. Life's good. And I'm confident I should be okay.

This is very nice. Now, you had mentioned at one point that Elder Samoa ended up sitting on a cat and the cat did not survive the experience.

I did, I did. I come to think of it, I don't know if it was him. I think, you know, Ellis Samo was a big guy, you know, very 6'2", 6'3", what, 300 pounds or 280 pounds, big guy, big Samoan guy, wonderful guy, very funny, very animated. If I'm not mistaken, I think it was him, or it could have been another missionary. It might have been Elder Bagley, Elder Bagley. But one of the mysteries, um, also sat on a cat, or I think it was a kitten. And I think this is where the story comes from. And the— it didn't survive. Um, I think it suffocated, unfortunately. And I think the kitten was underneath, you know, these couches that were quite thick. I think it got stuck down there and, and one of the mysteries sat on the couch. Um, the settee, and it didn't survive. And that's what I heard. I wasn't there, so I can't vouch for that, but that's what I heard had happened. And I don't know if it was Elder Samoa, it could have been, or it could be Elder Bagley. I'm sure somebody will remind me, remind us, as they, you know, who know us from that time, of who that missionary was. But yeah, that's I believe that did happen.

Yeah, that is delightful. That is lovely. All right, well, so, so as far as your mission experience goes, I mean, do you want to, to tell some more, um, stories specifically from the mission, or do you want to give an overview of, of how that happened?

Yeah, I'll, I'll give you an overview. I mean, each area, you know, brought all kinds of experiences, but for the whole— for the most part, the entire part, really, it was a amazing success for me. Uh, there were ups and downs. Uh, I struggled with the difficulty, um, with people rejecting what I thought was an extraordinary message. Um, it was a, a, a huge amount of rejection. Um, I struggled with, um, people who at the time felt it was right but their partners didn't want them to go forward. There was one individual that Jacobs and I taught, and I'll remember his name, a young man who was older than us, in his 20s. His name was Dean Gentle. Scott Jacobs will remember this individual very well. And we were teaching him, and he had quite a profound experience when we were teaching. I remember that experience very well. And then a few days later, he got some anti-Mormon literature through the post. And we said that that was Satan trying to stop him from joining the church. I remember reading that pamphlet and it talked about Joseph Smith polyandry, Joseph Smith polygamist, etc. And it was an attack on Joseph Smith. And we discounted it and told Dean, said, look, this is completely false. Interesting how this is coming at a time when you're learning that the church is true, etc. He never was baptized. We actually filled the font. We'd organized the the baptismal program, speakers lined up. He actually never showed up, unfortunately, um, decided at the last minute not to join the church. And that was tough at the time, you know, going through those experiences. Um, but for the whole part of my mission, I think I struggled with the lack of interest from people, um, the— what I thought, what I saw at the time, was rejecting the gospel message. And the intensity of the 10, 11 hours a day and not feeling I was being successful or really making any difference. There was all kinds of experiences with all kinds of people, including with companions. We had a couple of interesting companions, one in particular that you and I know very well.

And so that was— I did a podcast interview with the guy from Northern Ireland, right? And he was interviewing me and he said, did you have any— did you know any missionaries from Northern Ireland? And I said, I did. And I shared the name and his eyes just kind of got very wide and he says, yes, yes, I know him. And then when we got off the podcast, we swapped some stories. He's had some experiences there and said, that guy is crazy.

Yeah, I, I, I— it's the same person. So I was called, uh, President Banks called me, and I was a zone leader in IBS at the time. And she said, you know, Ella Wilkes, uh, love you, appreciate you, uh, you know, yeah, uh, one of my finest missionaries. I'm sure he told everyone that, and that's fine. Um, you know, buttering me up. And he said, look, we got a problem. We've got a missionary here who's close to going home and kind of a last chance saloon kind of thing. And and he's struggling and his companions are struggling with him. And I mentioned the name immediately and he went, yep, that's him. Would you— he asked me, asked me the question instead of, you know, assigning this person to me. And I said, yep, I'll do it. It was a mistake on my part. It really almost ruined my mission. There were some awful things that happened which we might get into at some point, but, uh, you know, threats and physical violence. Pulled a knife on me and, uh, wouldn't work, wouldn't get out the shower, um, just couldn't get him out. Had strange revelations about people in the ward and disappeared in the middle of the night. Um, just very, uh, challenged individual. If you look at his background, you know, um, It's not surprising with the, you know, history and background that it came from. And I, at the time, I was upset and angry and disappointed in that experience. I look back now and I see, you know, for it as a young man who was struggling to, you know, similar issues in some ways that what I experienced to, with what I experienced growing up and self-esteem and self-worth and trying to find yourself. And so I have, you know, empathy, sympathy, you know, for him. At the time I was very, almost ruined my mission. And it didn't last very long. And it was a tough— that was a dark time. All the other companions were amazing people, extraordinary missionaries. But that one was tough.

I was with him for 2 weeks because my real companion at the time was Elder Hiscock, and he came down with the chickenpox. And Elder Spencer— no, no, Elder Collins.

Collins.

Spencer's his last name.

Yes.

Elder Collins was likewise ill, and Collins had our mutual friend as the companion. And so, so, so Hiscock and Collins holed up and took goofy pictures of themselves pretending to be on a surfboard and doing all kinds of silly stuff. And in the meantime, I was stuck with this guy And it was terrifying. This was in Dundee, Scotland, and he would threaten people on their doorstep with eternal damnation. He bought candy cigarettes and would pretend to be smoking while we were tractoring. And it was just— this isn't funny, and this isn't— he would just say inappropriate, terrible things. And if someone was Catholic, he would tell them that that was the devil's church and they were going to burn in hell. It was just really, really sort of a frightening time. And what I discovered after I was with him is that there was a, there was a young woman in Dundee that he had written a letter to telling her that he had had a priesthood revelation, which is somehow different from a regular revelation. This is a priesthood revelation. And therefore, if you disobey a priesthood revelation, you are denying the Holy Ghost and you will spend eternity in outer darkness. And the revelation was that this woman was born, and so she had to obey or she was going to suffer a fate worse than, than hell. And, and All of the rumors that I heard after that were that President Banks read him the work, the riot act, and up, down, and sideways. And I'm really kind of frustrated that he didn't get sent home. You know, President Banks had this policy that he wouldn't send any missionaries home. He was very proud of the fact that no missionaries got sent home on his watch. And I don't know that that's something he ought to be proud of. There are missionaries that were doing tremendous damage to themselves and to others and were a danger to themselves and to others. And, you know, I think when a missionary pulls a knife on you, that missionary ought to be sent home. Don't you think so? Don't you think so?

Absolutely. I do. I do. I mean, we were, you know, I wanted to be obedient. I wanted President Maxwell to be proud of me. I wanted to give this person, you know, an opportunity to stay in the mission. His reputation was extraordinary. And every day with this individual, and I was served with the meaning of badass, but every day there was a problem or several problems. I'll give you a quick example. This is typical of the experience. We had a dinner appointment. We was all leaders. I was the only leader. We had the district leaders over. Elder Harmon from California, big guy, American footballer. And I remember his companion, Elder— I can't remember his companion. A great guy, great team. He just come out.

I remember telling me that Harmon said that he prayed every day for the return of the 18-month mission, right?

Right. Okay. Anyway, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. He— him and I we're just a great team. And he came out, he was— he said— I said, I am coming out of mission. He says, I miss listening to Def Leppard. He was a big Def Leppard fan, um, and he was in Elgin, uh, east of Inverness. So we kind of came over, we had a dinner appointment scheduled with— I remember a lady's name, Sister Cruikshank, sweet lady, old temp, loved the temple, in her 70s, 80s, and she would have the missions over all the time. She had this small retirement apartment, kitchen, room, bathroom, that was it. It was tiny. This missionary from Northern Ireland, Elder Harmon and his companion, we had this dinner appointment. Sister Crookshank, who had difficulty hearing, thank goodness, and that will become— you'll see why that's important in a moment. But basically, she asked me and Elder Hammond's companion, I can't remember his name, to set the table in the main living room. So you had to set up the dining table in the same room. She had very limited space. Meanwhile, in the kitchen, the Northern Ireland missionary and Elder Hammond, the big American footballer, were in the kitchen. And a few, you know, we're setting the table in the front room. Sister Cruikshank is with us organizing things, and then all of a sudden I hear this almighty crash and banging and smashing going on in the kitchen. I then rush into the kitchen and Elder Harmon is beating the crap out of this other missionary and just pummeling him and just punching him in the face. There's blood. And, uh, yeah, and it's a real scrap, a real fight on the kitchen floor. There's some chairs turned over, um, there's a pan on the floor. It's a real scrap. Um, Elder Houston, that was, that was, uh, I think it's Elder Houston was the other missionary. I came in, uh, back into the room and I said, Elder Houston, um, you know, keep Sister Crookshank here. Sister Crookshank couldn't hear very well, and so, uh, and so I went back in and I grabbed these two guys and I pulled Harmon off the other missionary. And I said, and I told the other missionary, you get out, just go, just get out, go for a walk, just get out. And Elder Harmon stayed with us. Elder Euston went with the other missionary. And I ordered them, I instructed them, this other missionary to go out, to leave, et cetera. And Elder Euston took him out. And then I asked Elder Harmon what the heck happened. And this other missionary from Northern Ireland said that Elder Harmon's mother had slept with a donkey. And that's why he looked so ugly. So Elder Harmon took offense to that. Of course, he's a big American footballer and wouldn't, you know, didn't, wouldn't tolerate that, as nobody would, and just laid into this guy. I mean, he completely floored, um, this other missionary, um, that you and I know well.

Uh, you should maybe, maybe if we don't want to say his name have some kind of code name for him.

Yes, yes, yes. Um, to protect guilty, to protect the guilty. And so yes, we should come up with a code. But it was just an insult out the blue, uh, completely, you know, trying to be funny. And, and, and, um, because the different tone and the different— it's a sarcasm. Um, you know, the Brits do sarcasm quite well. North Americans do it less well, and I can understand, you know, I live in Canada now, I can understand, and I see now why an insult like that, well, even without sarcasm, could be taken personally. But this individual had a habit of saying extreme things and resulted in that occasion with a really serious fight. I mean, if I hadn't have dragged Harmon off this mystery, I, I don't know what the ambos would have turned up. I don't know what would have happened. So it was things like that that were really spoiled by mission. Um, Sister Cruikshank, um, we managed to keep her in the front room while, well, Harmon and I tied it up and managed to, you know, remove some of the broken, uh, uh, plates. And, and, and, uh, and the chair leg was broken. And we said, you know, she said, how did that break? I said, Elder, you know, Harmon sat on it. He's a big guy. We kind of made up a story as to why everything was wrecked or some of the stuff was wrecked in the kitchen. It was embarrassing. It was a terrible, terrible thing to, you know, terrible behavior. So things like that really spoiled it for me. And, you know, it was unfortunate. I really struggled with this missionary. After the mission, I went to a number of YSA conventions. And often would bump into this individual and avoided them. And I've struggled to think anything positive about the person. However, over the years, this person would message me. He'd message me and I'd be polite and friendly. How you doing? How's your family? And then I just told him on Messenger, I said, look, you know what you did, you really spoiled my mission. I told him exactly what I thought. And he came back with an apology, and it was sincere. And so we were able to chat back and forth and were able to come to some closure. And so that was good. That was good. But at the time, it was very difficult for me. And in the closing interview with President Banks, by the way, you know, you have your end of mission interview with President Banks, as we all did. He gave a glowing report, which I was very grateful for, for my service. And then he made an apology. He said he apologized for assigning this mission to me because he knew that it had a very, very bad negative effect on me and on my mission. And he said it was a mistake. He said it was a mistake to keep him out. He should have gone home, uh, you know, when he pulled the knife on you and all the other behavior across his entire mission. He should have gone home. And I agree with you. I think there's a time if a missionary is so psychologically, um, impaired, you know, prior to going on a mission, um, then they shouldn't go. I think now that the church does a better job, I think, in terms of psychological assessments, you know. If you think otherwise, tell me. But I, I— missions I know are going out there, um, you know, they go for these medicals, they're tested, you know, their mental, uh, well-being is really, really important. I think back then they didn't have the, the systems in place that would have, um, you know, these checks and balances, I think.

Well, and the other thing that has changed, and I think for the better, is that the, the stigma of going home early when you and I were missionaries, uh, was so overwhelming And, and, and I don't think my children particularly understand it. The idea— I mean, I spent the first, I'd say, 6 months of my mission in what I would describe as a clinical depression, as a medical sort of condition. Depression runs in our family. I've taken antidepressants since I've come home. But at the time, the feeling was the reason I feel so terrible is that there must be some kind of unresolved sin in my life. It's my fault. I'm wicked. I'm terrible. And I had ideas of escaping my mission. You know, I couldn't imagine going into the mission home and demanding my passport so that I could go back home. Because there's no possible way I could go home and face my parents and face the church with that level of disgrace. It was just an unthinkable level of disgrace. And so I had visions of, you know, laying low in Scotland for a little while and then going across the Russian border and, and making my way across the Alaska land bridge before I finally got I mean, I mean, just ridiculous, ridiculous fantasies. But, but the idea of just saying, I'm going to go home was, was an unthinkable prospect. And I think maybe that's what President Banks was dealing with, is that he knew that if he sent somebody home, they'd be sent home to an environment where his local ward and everybody else would treat them like a pariah because they weren't able to complete their missionary service. In retrospect, that's extraordinarily damaging. I think that's an extraordinarily unhealthy environment to subject young people to. Now you have missionaries coming home really rather frequently. In our ward, there was a time stretch when more than half of the missionaries that our ward sent out ended up coming home early. And that's kind of stopped recently, although maybe that's because my ward is aging to the point where we don't have as many missionaries going out. But, you know, my own children, I have twin boys that served missions, and one of them had a great experience from beginning to end, and the other had a lot of psychological trauma and was diagnosed with a condition called scrupulosity, which is the religious form of obsessive-compulsive disorder. And, and, you know, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I just as I'm thinking about this, I think this is kind of an important story to tell. My, my— so my sons are identical twins. And they were both called on missions to Argentina, two different missions in Argentina, but they were both called to do two different missions in Argentina and went to the Mexico MTC for their missions. While they were in the Mexico MTC, they were in the MTC was sort of divided into bungalows. They have all these bungalows on the campus of the Mexico MTC and in the bungalow where they were assigned. There were missionaries who were doing things that the— that they still won't tell me specifically what they were. But what I have tried to figure out here is that they were essentially taking pictures of themselves naked and measuring the size of their penises, which is probably not something you ought to do on your mission. At the same time, it's stupid teenage boy kind of stuff. And, and the problem is they took pictures of this and they left a flash drive of it somewhere in the MTC that was discovered after they had all left and after my sons had gotten to their mission assignments. These pictures came to light. My sons aren't in any of the compromising pictures. But they are in pictures with some of the other missionaries who were in the compromising pictures. And so there was this huge investigation conducted. A number of missionaries were sent home immediately, and one son got to his mission in Buenos Aires, and his mission president said, you didn't have anything to do with this. As far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed. Get to work. Let's not talk about it ever again. My other son got to his mission and his mission president said, okay, you're in some serious trouble. We have to decide whether or not we're going to send you home and you have to spend all this time studying all of these scriptures on repentance and come and report to me on a weekly basis so I can determine whether or not you are righteous enough to remain on your mission. Um, that did a huge number on him. To the point where they, they both came home about 7 months in because of COVID The, you know, church pulled all their missionaries. And so my sons came home and my one son that had had the mission president who had condemned him for his unrighteousness was covered in cystic acne, you know, just huge acne all over his body. I mean, we saw him get off the plane and we were just aghast. We'd seen the acne to some degree In the video calls, you know, we were allowed to do video calls that you and I weren't allowed to do when we were missionaries, or the technology didn't exist to do it. But calling home was complete taboo. And in fact, in Scotland, we weren't allowed to call home on Christmas or Mother's Day, which other missionaries were able to do back then. He comes home and he's just covered in acne and, and he, he's just psychologically torn up to the point where the mission was just nothing but a source of trauma for him. And after a couple of months, they both get reassignments. One was reassigned to go to Tampa Bay, Florida, and the other was reassigned to go to Cincinnati, Ohio. And, and the day comes. So the one son goes to Tampa Bay, Florida without any problem. He's happy, has a great time, actually bumps into some family there that sort of take him under his wing. I mean, his mission was just a really great experience. My other son, uh, it was 2 days before he was supposed to fly out to Cincinnati, and he finally turns to us and says, I can't do this. I can't go back out there again. I can't do that again. And we get him into therapy and he stays home for about 2 or 3 more months before he finally says, yes, I do want to go back out and ends up completing his mission. Both of them completed their missions. But you look at that and the amount of trauma that missionaries experience is just something that we, you and I, did not talk about and our leaders did not talk about back in our era. And I do think the church has made some progress in that regard, but I also think that there is an awfully long way to go. So I just wanted to get that on record, and I'll turn the time back here over to you. But I just think—

go ahead.

No, no, I— go ahead.

I think you've raised a really critical point here. We've, you know, throughout our conversation, we've highlighted some extraordinary benefits and advantages that the church brings to people's lives in extraordinary ways. You know, the culture, the teachings, there's so many positive aspects for the church for sure. However, there's a very different side where the doctrines, the policies, the principles, the differing methods of implementing and teaching the principles which change and vary across different geographies, you know, from one mission to another, etc. They're all quite different depending on the mission present, but there is a serious aspect of church culture that is extremely damaging for all kinds of people, all kinds of demographics in the church, including young people, you know, even in youth and YSA, and certainly going on a mission. The expectations are on a missionary, intense, see, You know, the rite of passage and the pressure on serving a mission is extraordinary, and I don't think that's diminished. And then the strictness and the rules, you know, we spend 3 or 4 weeks in the MTC preparing. There's a lot of additional medical professional support now than we had going on missions that bishops and stake presidents have access to, and I could speak to those services, having served as a bishop and served on state presidency, and the support that young people have, uh, prior to going on a mission and preparing a mission is, is very different to what I experienced growing up as a, you know, or partly growing up in the church as a youth and in YSA. And then, you know, they go to the MTC, uh, there's a lot more support that they have now going to the MTC, and then they go through all these challenges on the mission, you know, all all the pressure that they feel to baptize, to convert, and they're measured in terms of success. How many baptisms do you get? And, you know, how successful you were on your mission. Were you a zone leader, for example, a district leader? We had a couple of people in our mission, I won't mention the name because you know them very well, who communicated to President Banks that he felt a failure because he hadn't made zone leader, and President Banks made him zone leader. I know exactly the person I'm thinking of, and wonderful guy and easily zone leader material for sure, but felt that if he wasn't a zone leader, that, you know, he had failed, which is extraordinary. And the pressure, you're right, you know, back then, and I think it's still there now to a great extent, to stay out against all costs, all odds, etc., is intense. The psychological pressure of rejection and not being successful and and how that looks if he came back home early. I have a member of our family, extended family, who— a wonderful young man, wonderful young man, has a big heart, um, just a kind, kind person— got himself into— made a silly mistake, uh, not, uh, that different than what you described with, with your sons there in the, uh, in the Mexican MTC. Uh, silly thing, not serious in my opinion, kind of a young prank. Got himself involved with a others who he was easily misled. And, uh, the mission president took it completely out of context and sent him home, and it completely devastated him. And he had to, um, face people, and, and it's been extremely difficult for this person even now, um, you know, going to the ward, going to the stake, and the rumors. And, you know, this person came back early and, and, and didn't go out and didn't— wasn't successful, and therefore would not make a successful father, would not make a successful husband. Wouldn't make a successful individual in life. And so, and unfortunately, because of his lack of strength emotionally, feels— and this person shared this, his experience with me— feels that his mission failure now defines him, and that's who he is. He's a failure. He feels like a failure. And I've spent time talking to him privately and trying to rebuild him and reconstruct him. But he doesn't have any support from the church. And so, you know, you get all the support going out before you go on a mission, right, pre-mission. You go to the MTC, you've got a lot more support and missions now than we had when we were serving out there to, you know, to counter all the challenges that young people face. And then right at the end of it, your mission stops, you're thrown back into your ward or your stake, there's no support really. It's all down to whether it's the bishop You know, it's the bishop's discretion how much support, but all of the— any issues that they've got, psychological or neurological or physical, etc., I don't see anything happening, um, at this end to help missionaries, uh, readjust and, and get back into civilian life. You've got this very interesting and, and somewhat intense and unique experience, preparatory, a lot of preparation here, and then nothing here.. And that carries forward and affects the rest of your life. I mean, I think about my mission often. For me, fortunately, it was mostly a success. But I also think about some of the dark moments, and those remain with me.

And for purposes of time, we will leave those successful and dark moments to a future installment. Until then, thank you for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode of Inside Out.