Ian's Story: Part II - Baptism and Beyond

Welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett, and we are recounting Ian Wilkes' conversion story, and I just want to join the story in progress. He's meeting with the missionaries, and he'll take it from there.

The discussions were uplifting. They were positive. I had loads of questions. Apparently, because I kept in touch with the Mishrahs since, by the way, who taught me, I asked a lot of scientific questions. I was quite a bit of an intellect, a lot of spiritual questions, et cetera, et cetera. And I took the whole thing and accepted it hook, line, and sinker. Everything they said, I believed. I had questions, but I accepted everything they said. Didn't question it, didn't doubt it,. And I think I was just so— it just felt at that time, it was a— as I look back, it was a gateway to survival, but also, but beyond that, a gateway, which I did— I think like this at the time. And sometimes I wouldn't allow myself to think like this— not only gateway to survival, a gateway to happiness and peace, which I'd never experienced, or rarely experienced. Such were the life and times of growing up in that family at that time in that neighborhood. And so, yes, I had questions, but when their answers they gave, I accepted. Anyway, came to the 5th discussion, I think it was. I think it's the 3rd or the 5th at that time, and they challenge you to get baptized. And I—

It was the 2nd discussion when we were teaching.

Your second discussion.

Second discussion, yeah.

Or whenever you felt the spirit prompting you to say it, but I think the second discussion. I think back then it was the old discussions. I think it was a third or fourth discussion, I think.

Were these the Hello Mr. Brown discussions? Were they the same discussions that we taught? No. They were very much by rote memorized.

Yes, got it. Word for word. Word for word. We had the principles and what are they called? They had the principles and then they had the sub-principles and then they had the dialogue points in the discussions that you and I had in '87. And these were pre-'87 and they were thicker brown materials and you had to memorize them word for word. There was no room for discussion or too much discussion beyond what was written down. Nevertheless, notwithstanding, we had very lively discussions of all kinds of things and their answers satisfied me and the feelings I— What was interesting is that they would show Man's Search for Happiness again on the old tape recorder, the B.I. And I watched— I know, and I watched that and I was like, my gosh, that's me. And I've got this time and I choose to do this time, whatever. And I can choose a life of sin, like they said, like all your friends are choosing. And I'm like, yeah, they—

Yeah, their life of sin was going to a car—

It was going to a carnival. And it was having fun. I mean, I looked at it, but back then, it looked like it was sin to me. And I think the missionaries were doing a really good job conditioning my mind that going to a carnival was sinful. But and I think the video has achieved that with many people, I'm sure. And then it showed the eternal life and families, and that really, you know, I wanted to be in a family that loved me, that cared for me, that was interested in me, and I wasn't. And so the prospect of being in a family or being around people that felt and thought like that was more important than going to a carnival. For me at that time, right? And so I absorbed everything, I accepted everything. Yes, I had questions, I challenged some things, but I accepted their responses. They challenged me to get baptized. I kind of laughed and said, look, you know, my mom's not going to— you need permission legally, by law actually, to get baptized at that time. That was my understanding at the time. And they said, look, you know, your mom's powerful. My mom had a reputation in the neighborhood, and I hope that's come through in this discussion. She was She was feared. You do not want to get on the wrong side of my mom. And people in the community will remember her to this day for sure. And so I said, it's not going to happen. You're not going to get written permission. And she, they said, God's, who's more powerful, God or your mom? And I was like, I was kind of not sure about that one. My mom was pretty powerful. Yeah, mom was powerful and would give God a run for his money for sure., but they said, no, no, have faith and pray. And by the way, here's some literature. Go home and read it. And so when I took the literature home and read it, I had to read it secretly. I read the Book of Mormon under— I shared this in a testimony in North America one time where I said, when I shared my conversion story and I shared in my testimony, I think I was in Seattle at the time, many years later.— the YSA in Bellevue, and I shared the experience of reading the Book of Mormon under torchlight under my covers. And afterwards, some of the YSA came to me and said, Ian, that's extraordinary. Didn't the sheets set on fire? And I was like, what?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

No, no, I was like, what are you talking about? No, no, why would it set on fire? A flashlight. Over the UK, they call it a torch, right? So a flashlight.

So I had to read stuff secretly, privately, And erase things with your rubber, right?

We'll get to that maybe. But absolutely, you have to erase things with your— words here, Canada, US, mean different things. Mean different things. And vice versa for sure. So anyway, I took the discussions, I read the material, I really read it, Jim Bennett, and I accepted it. They challenged me to get baptized and they said, look, have faith, pray, fast. I fasted,, as well, for mum to approve this, et cetera. And in some extraordinary event, miracle, and I don't know all the details, but the mistress came back with a legitimate, non-forged, may I add, signature. I don't know how or why this happened, of my mum's signature approving me to get baptized. Some record.

So you didn't even ask your mother. They went and approached your mother independent of you.

What I learned afterwards, I learned a little bit of information afterwards that they had approached the bishop, I think, in the ward and some members there said, look, this guy, this young kid, 16 years old at this time, I think I just turned 16 or just was about to turn 16. So just before 16, I think it was. And He wants to get baptized. His family's against it. And I think they mobilized some of the members. And so some influence somewhere in that neighborhood was brought down or brought into the situation. And lo and behold, Mom had signed something that I was able to get baptized. And so I thought that was quite extraordinary. So, you know, I would—

you have to discuss it with your mother later.

I tried, I went back, I went back and I said, Mom, you know that I'm, you know, wanting to— the missionaries have asked me to get baptized. I know you're not happy with this, you don't approve this, but you're allowing me to make this decision. She was— says, well, I remember she was saying, it's up to you. I don't approve of it, but it's up to you. If you want to do with whatever in life, it's up to you. You don't listen to me anyhow. You never listen to me, you know. And so, okay. So the conversation was quite short. It didn't last very long. And so in July, the 25th of July, 1982, I was picked up at the bottom of the street because they couldn't swing by the house. That was too much. I was picked up in a car with the members at the bottom of the road there and drove to a church, a chapel, not the one I was attending, another one which had a font. And I was baptized into the church and it was an extraordinary event. I was very skinny back then and they couldn't find clothes to fit me. So all these white clothes, shirts were probably for a 20-year-old and I was only 16, very small frame. And so the pictures of my baptism, I'm drenched in these big white pants and white shirts. Quite comical. And anyway, I was baptized, and they came up the ward— none of my family friends came. They were invited, but no one showed. It was a small gathering. There was a few members that had, you know, got to know, and they came along, and there I was. I was greeted into the church, and the bishop welcomed me, and part of this new family now. And by the way, I'd been going to, as you'd expect, I'd been going to the youth program. So So in the run-up to joining the church and being taught by the missionaries, I was now integrating, and this is a really important part of my experience and a very successful component of the church missionary effort where they're very clever, very smart, but for me, again, very genuine experience where they integrate you into the youth program. So I'd met all these new friends. They didn't drink, they didn't smoke, they didn't want to kill each other, they didn't argue, they kind of had fun. They thought like I did, felt like I did. They had confidence. My gosh, that, that was something that I was just in awe. They would give talks in front of the branch or the ward, and they were 16 years old, and I just couldn't bathom or figure out how they'd have the confidence to do such extraordinary things, to speak in front of 50 people or 60 people. I just couldn't understand that. And they talked, they had lessons on self-worth and self-esteem and you have purpose and meaning and you're worth something. And I was like, this is just extraordinary. It really saved me in every way, Jim Bennett, on a personal level, spiritual, physical, emotional, psychological in every way. The church, the gospel, I say the gospel because it's very different to the church and we might get into that details of that at some point. But for me, the gospel principles, the acceptance, the warmth, the support was completely opposite to what I had and something I'd only hoped for earlier. So I got baptized. At that time, you received the gift of the Holy Ghost at the same time. It's different now. And went back home again on cloud 10, felt this extraordinary spiritual, elevated spiritual emotional experience. Went back and again, in contrast, on quite a more extreme level than ever experienced before. When I walked into the door, um, and, and proclaimed that I just got baptized, Mom seemed to have forgotten that she'd allowed me or gave me permission, um, and was seen partially unaware that this actually had happened, perhaps believing it wasn't going to happen or I back out or it wasn't real. She reacted with great fury, great fury, great anger. I mean, shouting, swearing, threatening, absolute furiousness, and told me right there and then to get the eff out and not come back. So she basically told me to pack my bags., and, uh, I didn't have much belongings at all. I had a dog called Shep. That was my dog. And she told me to take the dog. Uh, she wasn't gonna look after the dog. And I had to, uh, leave. Um, she was shouting anger, smashing stuff in the house. She was so mad, so angry. And then I remember her last words. She, she— I, I came out the house. I, I had these few clothes in a plastic bag. A few, a few coins in my pocket, a dog, a tin of dog meat in the bag, um, completely numb, no idea what was going on or where I was going or what was going to happen. And I walked up the street completely numb, lost, numb. I had no idea what to do or where to go. I remember the last few words. My mum was upstairs. She shouted out the window, um, for all to hear, very loud, in front of the very close-knit houses that were there, and people came out the houses. Some of them at least could hear the shouting and the arguing, and she shouted, pushed herself, or shouted, you know, stretched herself outside the window upstairs and told me very loudly for all to hear, go let your effing Mormons take care of you. And don't ever come back. And so I walked up Graham Drive up to the top there, uh, completely dazed, completely numb, turned left up Kershaw Avenue up to the triangle of shops. Anyone listening in that community will know exactly what I'm talking about. And, uh, just walked, wandered, uh, aimlessly around the streets there wondering what to do. And then I— it was getting late. This is in the summer of '82. So it wasn't cold. And I remember sleeping on a park bench with my dog. So there was a park bench, uh, I got my clo— the clothes that was in the bag, I kind of put those on to keep warm. And then I kind of huddled up, uh, on this bench with Shet, the dog, and I slept overnight on this park bench, um, in a park just took the, you know, a few blocks away from where I lived. And then, um, That next day I connected with my friends and asked if I could stay, you know, if they had a couch or that I could sleep on for a night or two till I figured out what was going on. And they, they, they, some couldn't and others wouldn't because they'd learned from my mother and family that I joined the Mormon Church and that I was not to be supported. And that was a very, very difficult time. Again, physically it was quite vulnerable and just had nowhere to go. I slept on the park bench 2 more nights, and then I had left a message with the Mishras, I think within a day or 2, and went back to the— I think the third night, after the third night of the park bench, I went to knock on the apartment or the flat where the Mishras were staying at the spa store there. And explained what was going on. They then contacted the bishop and said, "We have an emergency situation." And then within a space of hours, actually, the thing that my mother had shouted out the window a few days before began to unfold. So the members of the church rallied round, and I was given some, they found some temporary accommodation with a member. In the ward. So I had a bed to sleep on, which I was very grateful for, and, you know, a shower and be able to eat, etc., etc. And then again, thank goodness to the members, they went further and spoke to the stake presidency and said, look, this young man— and by the way, this time I'd— oh, while this was going on, this was at the time I was leaving school, and I'd forged my mother's signature, um, on the college application and had, uh, just at about the same time been accepted into college. Okay. And so, you know, I was living here, college is over here, all this, uh, church activity was going on in my life at that time. And right about the same time, the college nearby, 10, 12 miles away, had sent me a letter, um, that I had received actually before I was thrown out, saying I've been successful, uh, being accepted onto the course there, which was, which is great. I was stunned by that. And so, uh, this, the stake presidency and the bishop there organized and coordinated some long-term accommodation. And I was, uh, there was a ward, uh, in the stake but a different ward where I was going, same one I was going to college actually, that some of the members were approached there and my story was shared with them and said, this young man has been thrown out, is desperate, he's going to college, he's joined the gospel and joined the church, is anyone interested in providing some accommodation? And a number of families stepped up, 3 in particular. 2 were not suitable because there were young women in the home my age, so that wasn't appropriate. Again, all this was new to me. I didn't understand what that— at that time, what that meant, uh, in terms of standards. You know, the church was brand new in my life, um, and so— but there's another, uh, the, the person who had asked for help in their ward was the bishop, and he felt that it was his job, um, to, to be an example and to step up. So his daughter had moved out, she'd gone to university, and, uh, coincidentally, a room had become available at the bishop's in the bishop's home. And yeah, so this is in the same, in the town where I was going to college, quite a way away from where I, you know, Castleford. This was in Wakefield, maybe 15 miles away or so. And so this amazing family, the bishop and his family were extraordinarily kind and loving and they were kind enough to allow me to stay with them. And I got close to them and they became like a second family. I went to college. Prior to this, by the way, and I must highlight this, you know, my mother is not one for giving up without a fight. So within days of my mom learning that I'd been given temporary accommodation, and later more permanent accommodation, she contacted the police. And there's a division in the police called the CID, Criminal Investigation Department, I think they're called them, I think it's still called that. And they deal with child kidnapping. And she'd reported me. You were kidnapped? Kidnapped by the missionaries and by the church, by the church. So within fairly short, I think it was the temporary combination. So I slept rough for 3 nights, then found temporary combination with the help of the missionaries. And it was during my stay at that temporary combination, not with the bishop later on, but that middle combination where there was a bang at the door. This is a good 10 miles away from where where I used to live with my mom. And the two police officers, non-uniformed, regularly clothed police officers knocked on the door and asked the sister, the family that I was staying with, am I in the house? And they said yes. And can we speak to Ian Wilkes? And said yes. So I came to the door and they asked me, am I here of my own free will? I said yes. Have I been kidnapped? I said, I'm not sure what that means. And they said, well, have you been forced to come here? And I said, no. Are you here at your own free will? I said, yes. And I said, what's happened? I told them what happened. I told them what Mun did. And 15 minutes later or so, they left. And they would have gone back and told my mother that, you know, no, he's safe. He's not kidnapped.

Did your mother want you to come back home? Was she trying to—

She was. I learned later that she was. I thought that the police going back and advising my mother that, you know, he's— they asked me, do I plan to return home? I said, no chance. I'm not going back there. Never. I will never come back. So they will have gone back and reported all this to my mother. And knowing my mom, that— I think a lot of people who don't know my mother would have thought, well, that would have been it. They just let things lie for a bit, et cetera. But that wasn't enough. My mother came, she found out, she asked the police where I was staying. They wouldn't tell her. She then found out through a friend where I was staying. This is probably 8, 9 miles away, something like that. She found the temporary accommodation address where I was staying and she came to the house 3 times banging on the door, threatening with people that I didn't recognize. A couple guys that, uh, were from the neighborhood that, um, where I grew up, uh, came to the, to the door threatening, intimidating, and demanding that, um, I come to the door, which I never did, by the way. And this poor family, Jim, that had stepped up and to provide some temporary accommodation had to bear the brunt of that physical threatening on the door to, uh, you know, fairly serious individuals there at the door demanding that they release me or they enter and it's going to get very bloody. That must have been awful. Um, I remember the shouting and, and the threatening, uh, language at the doorstep there. I never came to the door. I was terrified. I, I— it was just an awful, awful experience. And so anyway, I think she'd come by 3 times and, um, And that was it. That was the last I heard of her for a while. And so I—

I don't want to jump to the end, but I'm hoping that that had some kind of a happy ending, that at some point in your life you were able to make peace with your mother.

Shall I give you a punchline? Because I think the punchline could be interesting.

Sure.

About what happened. My mother joined the church.

Oh, did she?

She joined the church.

Oh, okay. And so that is kind of a happy ending.

It is, it is. And my relationship was reconciled. In fact, that's not the right way of describing it. For the first time, just before she passed away, I had a relationship with her which I'd never had before, only for a few weeks. But the events that happened in between were as dramatic and as extraordinary as what I'm sharing with you right now. Unexpected and quite some very interesting things, events that happened for that happy ending to happen. Quite extraordinary and miracles really in some ways, depending on how you look at it. And so anyway, this threatening behavior by my mom died down and she didn't come back to the this temporary accommodation. I then, I think I was there for 2, 3 weeks till I found, or a month till I, I think it was a month there till I found, they found more permanent accommodation with the bishop of the ward in the town where I was going to college. And so I moved in there and I had nothing. I had no clothes, no, you know, a few spare clothes, that was it. The family couldn't they couldn't take my dog. Um, and so I had to make a very, very tough decision. I was very close to my dog, and, um, you know, this young boy there with his dog, and I had to either, uh, find a home for the dog or, or go back home. Um, I couldn't go home, and so the, the members there helped me find a farm, and I took the dog to, uh, a farm and left the dog there, and dog couldn't understand what was going on. And I walked back from the farm in absolute tears, just devastated. I was heartbroken. And it still, I think I look back at, that was a very, very, you know, emotional time, you know, just extraordinary price to pay. The family had a cat, they didn't have dogs, they couldn't accept the dog, and it wasn't their fault. I was just great. It was very, very tough. All this, you imagine all the emotions, all the feelings and thoughts that are going through your head on something like this, going to a strange family. The family was very, unlike the family, the neighborhood I grew up in, this family was very prosperous financially. They might not agree with that, but they were, compared to where I came from, they were for sure. And he was a very successful businessman, very functional family, highly functional, close family, traditional family values. Um, they spoke, they shared feelings, they would have family evenings and, and do things and say things that I'd never heard of before. They were very functional, and they were kind enough to let me into their lives, into their, into their home. And, and, um, it for me was just a dream. It was When I met with the sister there, the lady, the member there, she took me to my bedroom and, you know, in those houses that I described earlier, you had to share beds and bedrooms. It was 2-bedroom, 3-bedroom, big families. That's how it was back then. A lot of families in those housing estates and to some extent today, have families and they have to share rooms, you know. And so this member, sister, who showed me my room, it was my own room. And, uh, you know, I could— it was— I had to keep it tidy, and, but I was in charge of my own room and it was my own privacy. And I'd never had that before. And that was just— she was speaking and I was— I just wasn't sinking in. I just couldn't believe this was actually happening. And so this family, uh, they took me in and, and, um, I participated in all the church programs, youth, YSA, connected to many, many, many friends who I remain in close contact with even today. This family were extraordinary in terms of their kindness and love. And I was this mixed-up kid, very lost, you know, didn't speak Often, by the way, it might come as a surprise to you, but when I was— the times I'm speaking of earlier, actually, I was very shy. When I reconnected with old friends of mine from school, they described me as quiet, shy, lacking confidence, exactly how I remember myself. I was afraid to speak, afraid to share an opinion in case I was wrong. And so this family environment was completely opposite. I was encouraged to open up, encouraged to share, encouraged to share a view or opinion. And I was going to college, I was getting an education that was going well academically. I did quite well. I got lots of support. What did you study? You have an engineer? Okay, so it was a diploma. It was like a— they call it HNC or HND now. It was a Higher National Diploma. It was not a degree, it wasn't a degree, it was more of a 2-year half of a degree called a diploma, college diploma.

Associate's degree is kind of, I think, probably the American equivalent of that.

I think it is. It's not a fully— I have other degrees which are the full 4-year degrees, fully fledged ones, but this wasn't. This was a 2-year associate degree or 2-year diploma. It was environmental science. It was, um, uh, there was some geography. There was, uh, it was more of an environmental management type course, which really interested me, you know, environmental resources. There was some mechanical engineering components to it. There was mathematics, um, maths with an S. That's what we say over there. You say math. And, uh, there's some, you know, there's some, um, uh, business development component. It was more of a like a general vocational preparation, like a mini MBA kind of thing with a lean towards engineering and environmental sciences, which I quite liked. And so I did that for 2 years and did okay, did okay with that. That wasn't the best in the class, but I performed pretty well in the class. And so that education experience really propelled my personal thoughts about myself, about how I felt about myself, my life, my value, my esteem, my, you know, my self-worth. So education has a major part to play in how people feel about themselves. And, and you know this, and I think most people will be aware of this, uh, and you start to learn stuff and you start to develop a knowledge of things and you start to develop your interests and you become your— I think at that time, Jim, I, you know, that 2 years at college, being immersed and really immersed and very active, um, volunteer for everything. I just did everything that they wanted me to do in the church. But all of that really transformed my life. It was transformational on every level. Self-esteem, self-worth, knowledge, education, direction, purpose, meaning, et cetera. We were taught to, but we're coming 19, 20, you go on a mission, et cetera. So that was, it was like I'd been in the church. I wrote a testimony in a couple of books of Mormon that I still have. And these are one before I got baptized, one after. And if you read them, and they're a bit cheesy. My family think they're very cheesy, like a large cheeseburger type cheesiness, right? Dad, that's a bit funny, bit cheesy. But I sounded a bit like a prophet apparently. But that's how I felt at the time. And if you read those, you'd be forgiven for thinking I'd been in the church my entire life. And so I took everything, absorbed everything, and dances and activities and youth and the YSA. I was the YSA chairman. I didn't ask for that, but I I was there with one of the sisters there, my age, one of the girls, and we organized YSA conventions. And so I did that. I was college for 2 years. Everything in the church I did, followed all the rules, by the way, in the church. I was pretty diligent on that. Having grown up with drink and smoke and everyone in those neighborhoods, everyone, that's a bit harsh, but a lot of people were sleeping around. Um, extra— I, I won't share some of the— to the— some of the details, but, uh, members of my family sleeping with other members on, on the street was just mind-blowing. Things that we saw and witnessed in the home, and common knowledge apparently to everybody up and down that neighborhood. Uh, obviously not to the kids there, but like me, but, you know, very free when it comes to sexual prom— promiscuity, is that right? And everyone's sleeping or everyone, but a lot of people sleeping around. It wasn't the life that I wanted and smoking and drinking. So this clean Mormon living thing was like, hey, I'm just a dry Mormon here. It was just everything felt right at that time. And so I was being healed. I was recovering from the early years there. And so getting involved in, for example, one of the missionaries in the ward was sent home for some reason early and they have a shortage of missionaries and they had a gap in the summertime of 2 months. And they asked, is anyone in the ward wants to be like any young man or was I 18 at the time or 19? Does anyone in the ward want to serve like a mini mission, they called it, a mini mission?

Yeah, my brother did one of those.

Yeah, and I put my hand up. Okay, and I put my hand up and said, yeah, I'll do a mini mission. This was summertime, I think 2 years later. This was just after college, I'd graduated. It was 2 months. It was in my own ward.. And I did, that's what I did. I did a mini mission for 2 months. I loved it. And I was, I was, you know, I didn't like getting up so early, but I did it. And, you know, I was just a kid there and there was, the mission was great and I did a mini mission and I loved it. And that really, that was my MTC really. And so I, you know, I finished that and then I got a job. I got this great job. That was another miracle really getting in something in a business that became, allowed me to get into an industry that became very successful for me. So I got this, got, I had a series of jobs, different types of jobs that were good, some quite technical that got me into what I'm doing right now. And then the, these jobs were serious jobs. I had company car, good salary, very technical in terms of manufacturing, engineering, et cetera. Junior positions.

You got this kind of a job while you were still, you know, teenager, 20s?

Yeah, I think I was— what happened, I was 18, I think, when I graduated. So, you leave school at 16 in the UK, as you know. And by the way, feel free to jump in at any point if I'm talking too long or overspeaking here. But you leave school at 16, you go get a job, go down the mine or the pit, as they say, or you go to college, which I did. And then you go on to a degree, which I didn't do. I did a degree and other degrees later. Or after your college degree, you go get a job. That's what I did. So I got a job in a city called Leeds, Leeds in West Yorkshire. Again, maybe 20 miles away from where I grew up, the biggest city in that area. And the job was selling telephone sales, selling plastic tape. Sellotape, adhesive tape, sticky tape. Oh, in large boxes for businesses, for companies, right? And it was a big room with all these sales guys and it was not technical. So it wasn't, that wasn't technical. And you had a quota, you know, like a, you know, like North American approach to sales. Telephone sales and you had to sell many, many boxes of these plastic tape, industrial tape to manufacturing and machine and engineering companies that needed them. And I'd call and I did okay. I wasn't the very best sales guy, but I was probably out of the 10 that were there, I was probably number 7. So did quite well, did quite well.

You were in the top 10.

I was in the, well, there was only 10, so I guess I was, yeah. So, in the top 10 of 10 people for sure. And I did pretty well. I wasn't the best, but I did pretty well. And I called a company. You call these companies out the Yellow Pages. Here, you'd have the internet, right? But this is before internet. And so, there's a book called the Yellow Pages. You might remember this on your bookshelf. Oh, sure. And we go through Yellow Pages and we'd be given a geography in a certain industry. And I had the south of Yorkshire. And so, I'd call different companies, et cetera. South of Yorkshire is very industrial. Steel machinery, engineering, et cetera. There's a lot of companies that support those industries. Very— it's the steel capital of the UK, Sheffield. And so I called these companies, sold quite a bit of plastic tape over, you know, over the few weeks I was there, a few months I was there. And then one company I called, I just a regular call and made some sales. My name went up on the white whiteboard there, and I think it was number 2 that day or something like that. Ian, well done, you're rocking it, which is great. You'll get to number 1 eventually, etc., etc. And I'm like thinking, yeah, I don't want to stay in this job for too long. But anyway, this company called me back after hours. I was in the office and they called me back. There's only one other person in the office, I think, doing something somewhere else.. And this guy said, oh, it's Archie. And I said, oh, Archie. He said, no, you called me earlier in the day and sold me this tape. Oh yeah, I did. He said, that's fine. He said, thank you for that. And I said, thank you for your order. And he said, would you like a job in industrial sales, machinery sales? I was like, I don't know anything about industrial sales. And he said, look, he said, I like what you did on the phone. I liked your approach. Would you be interested in an interview?? And I said, sure. So, I went down over the weekend. We set up a date, went down there. And I had this extraordinary conversation with this guy who was from Scotland, by the way, from Dumfries. And he owned this company and basically said, look, we've got this job. We'll train you and we'll support you. You get a company car. You get £13,000, so £14,000. That was That was a lot of money back then. And I got a company car. I couldn't believe this was happening. And I said, sure. I said, you know, he said, do you think you could do it? And if he'd have asked me, you know, a few years before, no chance. I wouldn't even gone to the interview. But now, with my newfound confidence and my college diploma, I said, yeah, I think I can do it. I said, if I, 'If you can give me the training, I'll learn, I'll pick it up.' And that's what I did. They put me into a manufacturing environment for 1 month or 2 months solid. I was actually working in operations on the factory floor. Brilliant way of training somebody, really, doing all kinds of jobs in that. And to understand the equipment and the equipment sales, very technical. This is plastic injection molding and film extrusion printing, flexographic, very technical. Worked in this operation and then came back and developed a, well, I became successful with this company and actually left years later, set up my own company and became one of the largest industrial machinery suppliers in Europe. Long story short, that's another miracle of success, depending on how you measure success. It's something that I never would have even thought about owning an operating company. But this experience with this company, uh, the success I had there enabled me to believe in myself enough to think that I could do it myself. And I did. And I ended up buying a few of the, you know, the competition, um, and established a very leading position in the UK and parts of Europe doing that, uh, and enjoyed that. Doing that quite well. So, and then if we go back here, this is— so the, the job that I took with this individual down in this company down in south of Yorkshire, I did that for 2 years. It was training, and I felt obliged, Jim, to stay there because the train made— the salary was good. The church was encouraging me to go on a mission. Ian, you're 19 now, 19, right? You put your papers in, a lot of pressure actually on the, on the ward and the bishop there, to go on a mission. At the time, I was— I'd grown enough to know I wasn't ready. I'd grown enough to know I wasn't mature enough. I wasn't ready. I had this job. I'd made a commitment. They were training me. I felt obliged to do the job. The money was good. I had a company car. By the company car got me up and down the country to every YSA event that was on the map. I went every single one on the weekend. Finish work at 5:00, I'd go down to London Hyde Park, 4 or 5-hour journey with all my friends. In the car. We'd stay overnight and we'd meet girls and friends. And I met many, many girls, had many, many dates up and down the country. Thanks to this company car that I had at this particular job. So I had money, I had a good job, I was good at it, I became good at it. I had this amazing network of friends up and down the country who I just loved and fell in love with and adored and just wonderful, wonderful people who just thought I was worth something. And that was important to me. And so I did that job for 2 years, saved quite a bit of money. I stayed with the family, by the way, that took me in. So I'd been there, stayed there for a number of years. I did, through another member, rent a separate place with a friend of mine Around about the age of 20. So I did leave this family that had looked after me to have a bit more independence. You know, I was quite independent, 19, 20 years old, car, job, YSA, girlfriend, et cetera, et cetera. Network of friends around the UK, decided to rent in the same ward another room accommodation. So I was more independent. It's something that I wanted and we agreed on and that was fine. Another good friend of mine shared the— had another room in the same house. So him and I became really good friends, and he was an active member of the church and very committed to going on a mission. So I saved up all this money, and 21, you know, I was still 21, or just prior to 21, I thought that was the time to put the papers in, which I did, again, in a really good position. And by the way, just as a side note, And I'm not, this is the first interview I've ever done. So inexperience doing this first podcast. So very inexperienced at how to organize information here. But after about a year of staying with this family, the bishop who took me in, and I learned later, years later, that Mum had wrote very stinging letters to them and made very personal threats to the family in writing.

To the family you were staying with?

That's right. You know, she came by to the house, that temporary accommodation, 3 times. She'd apparently come by, she'd been by to the house where this family, this bishop was, this bishop family who took me in, I think been by there once or twice, wrote often very angry letters to them which they kept from me. She made all kinds of threats. But I think about a year into joining the church, I, at my own choice, I made contact with my mum. And it was at that time we had some basic level of reconciliation, but on a very, very basic level. And not a relationship, I wouldn't describe it as a relationship with her. But just talking, and we started talking about what happened. Um, there's still anger on her side and hurt and pain on my side. So it was a long, long way off of getting it remotely like a mother-son relationship. But we started dialogue, we started talking, and I visited. I didn't stay over, um, you know, I, um, called in and just said hi. I would meet downtown in the town and, you know, go for a, um, I'd have a hot chocolate, she'd have a tea, etc. And so there was, you know, uh took some effort on my part to reconnect, but that was down to me. I made that choice. Over the, over the years, things improved, and there was some very striking, significant events that happened, which were quite miraculous, really, which we might get into. But going back to where I was with the mission, you know, I was been with this job for 2 years. Put my papers in. My best friend there who I was staying with, became my best friend. He put his papers at the same time. There were 7 of us in the ward.

How old were you at this point? This, you didn't have 19?

No, I wasn't ready and I knew I wasn't ready, Jim. I wasn't mature, but I was mature enough to know I was ready. Again, I had to feel ready. I was pressurized a lot by the members.. But I was quite blunt and direct to say, look, I know my— I know me, I'm gonna go, but I'm not ready to go right now. Just back off. I did say back up. I said, you know, please give me some space. I'm going to go, don't pressure me. I'm not one to be pressured. You know, I'm my own man now, right? I'm my own free will. And I've got some sense of who I am by the stage. A little bit of a little bit of sense, at least who I am and knowing myself a little bit. And so the bishop gave me some space and I did this job, saved up, and just before I was 21 years old, I put my papers in and got— and there were 7 of us who put papers in at that same time. We got called to— I got called to Scotland and others got called to California, Philippines. Can't remember the rest, but I think I was the only one at that time I think someone got called to London. So I think there's two of us that went to the British Isles. I got called to Scotland. London's right at the bottom of the UK, as you know, pretty much. Scotland is 120 miles north from where I was living, you know, north of— in Yorkshire, north of England. And I was, I was fine. It felt right. It felt good. I, I think because of where I came from, um, anything that was successful like that, to be accepted on a mission, I didn't care. You could sent me to Iran or anywhere, I would have accepted it gladly. I think it was just a confirmation of acceptance that I was good enough to go on a mission. I was worthy. I was good enough to go on a mission. I followed the rules, and I was just grateful. You could have sent me anywhere. I was a very different individual than even some of the guys in the church. Just grateful for the basic simple things. You know, I live in a beautiful home and every day, not literally, but frequently I'm grateful for the carpet that I walk on. We didn't have carpets in certain rooms growing up. Grateful for the basics that I've got in my life right now, which I didn't have growing up. And I'm not materialistic at all. I'm just grateful for the basics. So, So when I got called, accepted, my goodness, I've been accepted, good enough, worthy enough to go on a mission to Scotland, it was fantastic. People said to me when I opened the papers there with my friends and the family, the bishop that I went back to when I opened the call from the church there, some of the friends that were there with me, said, "Are you not disappointed?" I said, "No, why would I be disappointed? This is amazing." I know, but you're going to Scotland, Ian. It's just like up the road. And I said, no, no, no. I said, look, look, I'm going on a mission. I'm going to serve the Lord, and, uh, I've been accepted. I'm worthy. Um, it was very basic for me, just a basic standard to, to meet. And I, having felt a failure most of my life, for me this was, um, proof that I wasn't a failure, that, uh, that I could do something, I could make something of my life. And so it was a very emotional experience for me. And these experiences were quite emotional in the positive, that, you know, friends, activities, being accepted to go on a mission, getting into college was evidence for me, or proof to me, for me, that I was worth something. And, um, it's hard not to get emotional when I think about how I felt at that time.

But, oh, but it also sounds like it's hard to separate sort of the kinds of solid, concrete things that the church did to support you and to sustain you that are independent of the doctrine or the teachings of the church, uh, you know, because it sounds to me like all of that was wrapped up together, that, you know, you would talk about the church being true, uh, not necessarily because of some kind of esoteric spiritual experience, but because the church had very literally saved your life in all these kinds of ways. Is that fair to say?

It's, it's, it's, it's more than fair. It's accurate. It literally, literally saved my life. And, uh, as I think back at that point, the deepest, darkest point when I was 14, and what I thought I was going to do to myself, it, it really— I was in the abyss, and somehow, some way, that I was able to get through that. And the church literally saved me. Uh, the gospel saved me, really. And so, you know, we look at life and we look at success. And what does that mean?

Well, I push back. I don't mean to interrupt you, but I push back and say it wasn't just the gospel. It was the actual church. It was the fact that there were people in the church that were able to take you in at a time when you were sleeping on a park bench and that, you know, that there was an actual physical organization that of people who were engaged in making sure that your life was far less fraught than it had been when you were living at home. I mean, I just, I think it's, there's so much value in the church. A lot of people who no longer believe in the doctrine of the church still remain in the church because they find such value in the kind of community that you discovered at such a young age. Is that fair to say?

It is. No, you're absolutely right. I, I've, I've mentioned that, you know, when you mentioned church, I mentioned the gospel, but you, you are right. The church mechanics, the, the operations of the church, um, absolutely were there for me. You know, people doing certain things in a certain way, support, physical support, you know, temporal support, etc. No question that the church operations, uh, for me personally at that time was came into full effect and was again, absolutely saved me. The gospel, the principles, the driving motivations behind why people did what they did. Extraordinary people, frankly, who I didn't know, Jim Bennett. These are complete strangers who came into my life and saved me, helped me, and actually spoke to me and brought me back from the abyss that cared enough to have that. And applied the principles in a very extraordinary, very Christlike way. So absolutely, the operations of the church, the kindness and extraordinary kindness of the members, the principles, the doctrine. I think as I look back, I associated all of the successes and the new life and all the transformations with confirmation that the church and the gospel were true. And I look back at my own life and I can understand why I thought and felt like that. These very different, quite extraordinary transformation in my life was all down to the fact that not only were the members— the members did what they did, kind of, because the church was true, and that this was the only true way to salvation. This is the path and the only way to be happy and be at peace and be successful in life. And that was the message that was taught, and that's what I accepted without— with question. I did question. I wasn't blind faith because I was intelligent enough to ask all kinds of questions, but I was satisfied with the answers at that time. And it was confirmation after confirmation that what I was doing was right and it felt right. And so when the mission, when the time came for quite a few of us in the ward to put our papers in and we all did and went to different places, for me it was being called by the prophet was that I had a future, not just in the church but on the planet. And so, I had direction, I had purpose, I had meaning, I had value. And others thought that. And I was still at my fledgling state of thinking and believing that even though I was 20, still had doubts. And how do you recover from that kind of life growing up? But often we don't recover, we still struggle for the rest of our lives because of our upbringing. But, Anyway, the church did it, and the gospel did it, and the members did an extraordinary job at saving me. And I will always be deeply grateful for that. And I've never doubted or questioned that is actually what happened, for sure. I can't bear to think where I would be, Jim, if that church hadn't come into my life at that time. So anyway, I put the papers in, got called to Scotland, went to the MTC, Did enjoy that, did well at the NTC, asked a bunch of questions. Some of them were difficult to answer, you know, some of the— it was quite intellectual, I think, some of the questions that I was asking, et cetera. But all the, you know, like geography, the Book of Mormon that I'd heard about, I had a whole bunch of questions about Joseph Smith. And, you know, I'm in the NTC, right? So, you know, this is the time to ask questions, the time to do role plays, you listen to the tapes. This is when the tapes came in, the discussions that Jochmann came in, et cetera. We did role plays in the MTC. I think I was there for 3, 3 and a half weeks, essentially, you know, trying to simulate.

That's also the first time you went through the temple, correct?

It is, it is. Went through the temple. That was an experience as well for me. That was quite—

Quite the cliffhanger, I'm afraid, because we've reached the end of the hour. And we will get into Ian's reaction to his first time through the temple in the next installment of Ian's story. Until then, we will see you next time on Inside Out.