James Burnham Returns!

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out. My name is Ian Wilkes and I am flying solo. Normally I'm here with Jim Bennett, but Jim, uh, decided to, uh, take himself and his family to Mexico. And right now, or maybe not right now, but Jim has been swimming in the warm waters around Mexico, being chased by, I don't think he's been chased by whales, maybe dolphins, but he's seen some, I think he saw a whale shark. He posted a picture of a whale shark.

So Jim, if you're listening to this, I hope you're safe.

And I hope you were able to get away from the whale shark. I think you, uh, you did. But, um, I'm here with an extraordinary, uh, individual, uh, a good friend of mine, uh, uh, James Burnham, who's from British Columbia. James, welcome.

Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to be back. You know, I had a really great time talking to you guys last time, so I'm good with just you and me too, because we are good friends. So I'm excited, obviously, where this conversation takes us.

Absolutely. I'm really excited to have you on, James. And we— you mentioned earlier, we did have you on earlier, a few I don't know, was it 2 months ago? You came on and you shared just a profound experience about your life, your journey, spirituality, and your relationship with music. And so if you haven't heard that podcast with James Burnham that came out maybe about 8, 10 weeks ago, go back into the list of podcasts and listen to it. It's an amazing conversation and it helps so many. We had wonderful comments wonderful comments about that conversation with James. So James, it's a real honor and a privilege to have you on, and Merry Christmas, and I hope you're having, feeling some peace and enjoyment over this Christmas time. When we were talking about— Absolutely. When we were talking about how we're going to structure this conversation, I suggested that perhaps you could play us into the podcast with one of your songs. For the benefit of our listeners, James is an extraordinary musician. He writes his own music. I go listen to him at times at different places, different clubs up and down around the Okanagan. He's extremely talented, and he— James looks like he's got a song prepared for us as we go into this podcast. James, over to you.

So I wrote the song for my youngest daughter. I gave it to her for Christmas, so it's newest song that I've played for people, and I hope you like it. My voice is a little bit rough because I've been sick, so I hope I can hit the notes. It's got some high parts. Okay, bear with me. All right, called Rain Your Sun on Me.

Darling, are you okay? You know I had to go. We don't talk much anymore. Want you to know, see you in the mountains. I feel you in the Breeze, see you in the blue sky. Please rain your sun on me. Darling, are you okay? You know I had to go. Miss you every single day, want you to know. Still can see you swimming at the bottom of the pool, feel your little hand in my hand, want you to God, it's real. Sorry, darling, are you okay? Know I had to go, found ourselves a brand new place where I can let You know, still sing you Danny Boy just like I used to do. Hold you when you're feeling sick, the whole night through. See you in the morning.

That's it, James.

That was Amazing. Thank you so much. And you, you wrote that song.

Yeah. Yeah, I wrote, I've written a song for each of my kids. Yes, I wrote an album. So I have 10 songs and 4 of them are for my kids and 3 of them are for my ex. And, uh, and I, one of them was the one I think I wrote before, um, called Do They Reach the Sky, which is kind of the part of the whole album. It's kind of the beginning of it all. So yeah.

And what's the name of that song?

That song's called Rain Your Sun on Me.

Okay. And how long did it take you to write?

Ah, that's a good question. You know, I don't— it doesn't take me too long to write a song if I focus on it. I've realized that it's tiring work. I don't, I'm not like Ed Sheeran where I crank out a song in 5 minutes. Like that guy can just crank, crank, crank. I'm like a more traditional songwriter and I will, that song probably has 30 revisions of it. So what it originally was and what it is now. In fact, the song originally was a song I was writing for my father. He asked me to sing at his funeral. And so I thought I'd try to write a song for him. And it was memories of with him and me and things like that, but it wasn't sitting right with me. Just a song should sit when it's done for me, at least it sits. And it wasn't. And I was just thinking about it. And one day I was, as I was hiking, you know, because I do see my daughter in the mountains.

Sorry.

And I see her everywhere, right? And, uh, and I was out, I was out in the mountains walking and I was feeling the breeze and I was thinking of her. And I thought, that song's for my girl. It's not for my dad. And so I changed the lyrics and then it just all fell into place. But it was like 30 revisions for me to get it.

Yeah, it's a beautiful song and I want to thank you for sharing it and playing that for our listeners and myself. Thank you so much. James, would you just provide, for the benefit of our listeners, just provide a little bit of background and history, a reminder if you will, in regards to your, you know, growing up, your background, the church. Now, we went into some detail last time on the first podcast with you. Sure.

Just give us a bit of a whistle-stop tour if you like.

Of your background in church. And then if you can, if you lead us into where you are in your life journey, because you are in a very interesting place right now. I won't tell our listeners where you are. I think it's quite extraordinary where you are. But if you could lead us into that adventure, that journey that you're embarking on right now and what's behind that. But give us a bit of a reminder in terms of your background in church and up to the day, and then take us beyond that to where you are now.

Yeah, I grew up in a very devout family. My family from both sides, they're early stock pioneers. My great direct descendant, I don't know what to call him, grandpa or whatever, John Pertinus Green converted Brigham Young. He married my aunt Rhoda. And so we, we are old stock family. And then my dad's side, same thing. And so I grew up really steeped in the traditions of the church. I went on a mission, loved it, and came back. And, but you know, due to a number of reasons, I never truly felt like I belonged in the church. And eventually I left. And I think we both had the same incident where the the church's stance on blacks in the priesthood. They released a document that is no longer available online, but what they released at the time when I read it was confirmation for me enough to say, you know what, this is not the place for me. And I think what I came to realize, I really wanted to learn how to leave gracefully because my family are devout members and I respect them immensely. And I respect what the church has done for them immensely, and the happiness and kindness that they find within the church, I don't deny. But I think when explaining it to my mom, I think I realized she has within the church a community that sustains and supports her and makes her feel safe and accepted and capable of doing the things she wishes she could do. And I don't. That is not my community. It is not a community that makes me feel that way. And that doesn't mean it's a bad community. It's just not mine. You know, I've walked into spaces before. I've been in, in companies that people thought were awesome, and I didn't. And I left. I didn't sit there and complain, right? I attended BYU. I went 2 years as BYU Provo. I went for 2 years and I found my second year there after my mission, I hated it. And I remember encountering so many students that hated it there and thinking, why do you stay if you hate it so much? And that's what I would say. Why do you stay if you hate it so much? Because it's a good place. It's a good school. It's great people. Why, why be that person sitting there and complaining all the time? And that's how I felt, and so I stepped away, and I feel like the benefits and beauty that the church offers to my family are still there for them, and I am finding my own way to have the same benefits that I feel they get.

Wonderful, thank you for that reminder. And so you served a mission, full-time mission, Where did you serve?

So I served in Japan. I went to Tokyo North. And it was a, uh, it was a profound experience for me as a 19-year-old boy to go from a society that is highly individualistic, that, you know, places the individual above all in North America. That's what we do. And the success and the entrepreneurship and the creativity and all the things that come with that, I think are beautiful. And there are some real drawbacks to an individual mentality that I also see. And Japan opened me to the benefits of a community-focused concept and all of the beauty that comes with that. And it was, it was a profound change for me to see that there could be such a high level of society. That works so completely differently than the one I had been exposed to and raised in as a child. And in fact, I met a Buddhist monk on my mission and he changed my life on my mission. I often say I was converted on my mission to Buddhism when I was attempting to convert a monk to my religion. You know, and that's kind of what happened for me is this idea that We have our own paths that we take, and I don't need to make you take my path. If you are on a good path, I celebrate your path, but it doesn't mean I'm walking your path.

You gained a great deal, I can tell, from your mission, you know, culturally, spiritually. You had a number of profound experiences and you're Canadian, you've lived in America, you're from Canada, you lived in the States, you've obviously traveled, but you're not in Canada or United States right now, are you?

No. Yeah.

But tell our listeners where you are right now and why are you where you are right now?

Well, you know, I, like many people who went through divorce, you know, I went through a divorce 5 years ago. And I don't believe anybody goes through divorce easily.

It's—

it is hard for everyone, and it is a unique and painful experience for everyone involved on both sides. And for me, it came also because I left the church. There was a lot of fear. My family was living in Utah, and I would say that it created a lot of fear around who I was. And how I might try to steal my children away from the church, which I've never had any intention of doing. And so my children wouldn't see me, and it caused me a lot of heartache. I would say that my most significant challenge in my life, and I've had several, like everyone, has been the loss of that contact with my kids. It cut me to the core in a way that I don't even quite know how to give words to. So to deal with it, I started writing music, and I wrote an album last year. I wrote 10 songs. And when I finished, honestly, Ian, you know how when you're pursuing something in business or in your life and you finish it and you look at it, you think you have that satisfaction, right? That deep abiding satisfaction of I've accomplished something. And in the 5 years I've been trying to find that and I cannot find it. But writing that album gave me a peace to my heart and soul that I have been craving, craving. And I decided I would pursue it more. Um, along the way, as I was playing these songs at bars, like you were saying, I, I was able to secure gigs at local bars and wineries and just kind of doing stuff. It was just fun for me. I wasn't trying to do anything with it, but I had other musicians come up to me and ask me where they could hear my music. And I haven't recorded anything. And they're like, this guy says, well, I'm a producer. I'll produce your songs. So he's produced 5 of my songs and he's getting ready to get them released coming shortly. So they'll be available. For people to listen to, which is kind of, it's very exciting, but it was such a gratifying thing to have a musician. I had several musicians of high caliber come to me and say, hey, we want to play with you. And so they've helped me produce this music. And so I wanted to write a new album and I wrote an album about my loss. This first album is about my loss, about the things that I have struggled with. One is my loss of my belief in God. That was a Mormon belief. That was a deeply difficult thing to process. The loss of my children, the loss of my relationship with my ex, and the loss of the life of— I knew it. There's a few things, right? I also recovered the memories of my childhood abuse, and they were severe. And that was a loss of innocence for me and a loss of who I thought I was. Um, all of that was encapsulated in that first album. So now I'm writing an album of rebuilding and I'm living in Hiroshima, Japan to write this album because I think that, um, Hiroshima is a place that was utterly destroyed, flattened by a nuclear weapon. Um, 140,000 people, these are modest estimates, died in the first year from that. That bond. And when we think about this in terms— I remember where I stood in 9/11. I was playing tennis with a friend at 5:00 in the morning. I was in California, living in California. I was playing tennis before work, and all of a sudden our phone started lighting up. Went home, and the devastation that I felt— I personally took that toll in my heart. For the 6,000 people that died in the falling and the felling of those two towers, um, will have an impact on the rest of my life. And that was 6,000 people. And, you know, when you, when you begin to witness the beautiful area that this is, it is unbelievable to think that it was once flattened, destroyed entirely. Burned down the place. It is completely rebuilt. It is thriving. It is kind. There is no hostility to foreigners here. It's amazing. I can walk down the streets here without any concern that I was participating in that bombing in some way. I wasn't. I'm Canadian, but it would be easy to look at me and say, hey, there's an American guy. That was, you know, had, had a father that might have been killing Japanese people in the war, right? That is not the mentality of this place. And so I wanted to write an album of rebuilding that is full of forgiveness and full of hope and full of opportunity. And I think what better place than on the shores of the banks of the rivers that were filled with bodies from the death and destruction that was happened here and is now filled The streets are filled with thriving, happy people. And so it's an inspiration to me to be here and to be a part of this community while I write these songs.

It's an extraordinary connection you're making between your own experiences. You know, you've gone through the dark night of the soul, so to speak. Yeah, a lot of pain, a lot of suffering, a lot of anguish. You know, the only you can really understand and appreciate, um, you know, those kind of experiences and losses which are distinct and unique to you, um, your journey. And you felt this immense hurt and loss, um, as you've opened up to me and you've shared some of that earlier in, in the first podcast and a little bit on in this one. It's interesting and extraordinarily making that connection with Um, in the UK we pronounce it Hiroshima, I think, but Hiroshima. Hiroshima is how it's pronounced.

Hiroshima. It's the proper Hiroshima is the proper, uh, Japanese term. And it's hard for me to kind of speak it in English and, uh, you know, I, so I mess it up. But, uh, yeah. Thank you. Hiroshima.

Hiroshima. And so the, the relationship between the, the people of Hiroshima who have, uh, I, I mean, have, have they, when you're there and you talk to people and if this says, this comes up, I mean, it, it's such an extraordinary history with that city. The event shaped so many minds and hearts around the world, not just in Japan.

Yeah.

Do you get a sense of forgiveness with the people living there or do they still, or do they hold on to the past? And, and I'm asking that Also, to highlight the personal experience that you've gone through and that we all go through at some point where someone does something to us, we hurt, or some event happens and we, you know, some other human action, a decision, and it causes immense hurt and pain and loss and the difficulty we can have in forgiving those who offended us or trespassed or hurt us. You know, the Lord's Prayer talks about to give those that trespass against us, right? And how difficult that can be, you know, when people have hurt us and offended us and caused us immense loss and pain. Do you get a sense of the people in Hiroshima who have they forgiven? Maybe not forgotten, but in this sense of forgiveness. And do you draw on that experience? You know, you served a mission there. You're there right now, right in this album. You there on this extraordinary adventure and quest to, uh, at this stage, if you like, um, have the people there forgiven what happened? Uh, they, they haven't forgot. And, and do, is that the kind of inspiration that you draw upon to help you, um, forgive those who've caused you hurt and harm? You know, what, what lessons, I guess, can we learn from you know, what happened over there, uh, in Japan. And, you know, in regards to forgiving those who hurt us or trespass against us, you've made the connection, and I'm just interested in exploring that connection a little bit further, how it relates to you. And again, have those— have the, uh, the people that extorted Sid, have they— have they come to some sense of forgiveness and acceptance or not?

I, I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but the general The general feeling in this city is a feeling of a city at peace and an open-to-the-world forgiveness of what happened to them. And they stand as a beacon of what can be if you choose to forgive, because it is a happy, kind, welcoming city. It is not one that is fearful of foreigners. Which by every right it could be. It could be one that is hostile and closed off and unfriendly, but that is not what I experience. And to me, that is the very essence of what Christ teaches, right? It is at play, and the power of it to me is palpable. And, and it's the balm I need in my soul because I have struggled with forgiveness myself. Um, not having my children in my life, I often, um, lay blame at people's feet for it. Um, myself included, to blame myself as well. But there's lots of blame to cast, right? And blame demands retribution and justice. And these are tropes that I see everywhere in our world. Justice, retribution, you know, I want that. And that is not something that brings peace. That is not something that brings healing. That is not something that brings happiness. There is nothing required for peace and retribution, like peace and forgiveness other than you to allow your heart to let it in. And, and when you do, everything is healed. The scars on the land, the only physical scar left of the time of that bomb is this one dome that somehow remarkably remains standing in the midst of the, the, it very near the epicenter of the bomb. It's this kind of steel framework of a building, and they've left it in the state that it was. It's astonishing that it's standing at all. And it's a reminder of what happened, not so much for us to hold on to this idea that, um, we need to hate those that did it, but to remember that it was done. And I think there's great wisdom in that. To know, hey, I've walked this road, I have suffered this pain, but look at me now. And that's what Hiroshige says, look at me now. And this is what I was and look at what we are now. And it is beautiful, this city amongst these rivers on the banks of the ocean. And it's such a beautiful city. And so it makes me look at the the shattered framework of my own heart and say, I can rebuild. Every, every tree, if you walk into the Peace Park Memorial, every tree that's there had to be planted after the bomb was dropped because it was utterly flattened. And so Japan donated trees and there's these beautiful, beautiful acreages of trees full of birds singing and they're all different kinds of trees. And the, they, you would never believe that they were only planted sometime after 1946. You would believe that they've been there forever and they haven't. But that is what I want to make my heart is that peaceful, beautiful place that you would think has never been scarred, though it has been as everyone's has been. And that only comes from forgiveness. It only comes from that. And peace, you know, the Lord's Prayer is real. You know, Father, forgive them. Or like it says, I used to know that prayer. It goes, I can't access it right now. But yeah, forgive those who trespass against us as we Father forgive. All right, anyway, you know the, you know the lyric. Now can you say it for me?

I, I can't remember all the words. Uh, I used to know it off by heart, but, uh, yeah.

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Um, uh, anyway.

You're doing well. You're doing well.

Give us this day our daily bread. I should look it up. Yeah, anyway, it's— I'm wasting time talking about it, but the idea of forgiving— of us it is required to forgive. God says of you it is required to forgive all, and I will forgive who I choose to forgive. The reality is, is God's going to forgive you. I believe that. And you must forgive. And you must forgive yourself. Start with yourself. Forgive first for yourself. And I truly believe the depths to which you want to receive forgiveness, you must offer first. And, and only in the offering of that forgiveness can you find the depths of that forgiveness that you need. And I need great depths of forgiveness, the things that I've done, because I've done things that are so wrong. And I am craving that forgiveness, right? And so I offer it as best I can. And that's what I see here.

Sorry.

I see it.

I was thinking I went to the memorial. I was at Pearl Harbor. I lived in Hawaii. I did my undergrad in Hawaii. And Pearl Harbor Memorial is beautiful and well done. And there's anger there. They are angry still at the Japanese for bombing them, right? And understandably, I get it. It was unprovoked attack. They didn't deserve it. It was a peaceful, beautiful day and they got attacked and started a war. And the retribution for that was two nuclear weapons that destroyed not army bases, but civilians. In every other war, if America had lost, this would be called a war atrocity. No question. There is absolutely no, no excuse for destroying that many civilians in the way that they were destroyed. It is horrific. And, and the portrayal of it in Japan, there's no anger. There's no blame. They acknowledge they started the war. They talk about the inhumanity of the bomb. They do not talk about the inhumanity of people, ever. There's no inhumanity of people because humans cannot be inhumane in, in and of themselves. They can act in a way that seems inhumane, but we are human. And so we are always going to have humanity between us. That's how God sees us. No matter how far you fall, you are human and loved and worthy and valuable. And so that starting point gives you such a place of healing. And they show these individual stories and then you see the tattered, tattered clothing of what the children were wearing and the burnt, tattered clothing and the remains of artifacts, and they tell the stories of pulling bodies out of the river that were just packing the river with dead because they fled into the rivers to get away from the fires that were remaining. And honestly, I just wept. I wept at this memorial. And I wept because Um, there was no anger there. It moved past the anger, went right to the core issue, which is it was a sad, tragic, horrifying experience that humans would do this to other humans. Just utterly tragic. To me, that correlation is so profound in my own healing because it is the essence of forgiveness. It is the essence of what Christ offers in his atonement. And it is the one and only way to peace. And our one blessing from the Holy Ghost that we're offered, the one guarantee that we're offered is peace. Peace. Nothing else. You're not promised to be protected, but you are promised peace. And that is what I want. I want peace.

I, I can't begin to imagine what the, those nuclear events were like. In Japan, Nagasaki, if I pronounce it right, Hiroshima. I can't imagine what those individuals went through or experienced, the horror of war. Yeah, you know, we're seeing that play out on our TVs. You know, we're not on the front line in Ukraine or Russia. We're, um, we're not on the front lines in Syria or Iran or Israel or Yemen. You know, we're seeing significant conflicts unfold that escalate around the world. You know, lives are destroyed and ruined. I cannot— I've not lived through a war. I can't imagine, begin to imagine what that was like. I know my family growing up in England, you know, my mother and, you know, my uncles and their family lived through the war. Yeah. Had extraordinary stories. You know, a family who lost their life in the Second World War and in the First World War, you know, in England. So I just can't begin to imagine what that is like. And, you know, as I listen to you, I'm reminded of the extraordinary and awful inhumanity that man, you know, the capacity and the depth, the breadth of, um, in, you know, uh, inhuman behavior towards another, you know, to, to, to take a life and to destroy a life. And, and, and on a, on a, not just on an individual level, but on a whole scale level, like the events that you're describing there in, in Japan, you know, thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of lives. Um, I can't, um, again, begin to understand or imagine, um, uh, the inhumanity that exists between, uh, humans. And at the same, you know, in the same breath, I'm astonished and in awe at the capacity of the human spirit to love and to forgive. We, we, we do terrible things to each other.

Yeah.

For all different so-called causes and reasons, et cetera. Some perhaps justified, others perhaps not. That's a big, that's another conversation. And then there are people out there who have got this extraordinary capacity to love and to forgive no matter what. And I, you know, at the, and that's the other end of the spectrum. I can't imagine what that is like, that Christlike forgiveness and love, which I'm not there. I'm not, I'm probably somewhere in the middle, you know, hopefully towards the, you know, the better side of that, maybe not in the middle, but towards the better side of that. I can't imagine taking anyone's life or wanting to take anyone's life, you know, to cause her pain. I know, you know, we have to defend ourselves, defend, you know, the Book of Mormon talks about defending our liberty and our freedom of families. And I would do that if push comes to shove and I felt that my safety, my family and I was at risk, of course we would fight for those freedoms which we, we value. And at the same time, I, I can't imagine what that experience, having, having to go to war and to fight and, and, and all that death and destruction. But you've, you've, um, in all of your experience, your journey, you have figured out a way which some do, maybe not many of how to forgive. And the, you know, you are, um, represent that, uh, percentage of humans who, you know, um, who've able to forgive because you've learned that only we only experience peace and, and, uh, completeness. And I guess find ourselves, uh, are the true measure of ourself when we demonstrate that extraordinary capacity to to forgive. And, you know, there's not one soul on the planet that hasn't been hurt or injured in some way. And we all react and respond in different ways. I think the challenge in life is how, you know, when bad things happen to us, um, either from our own choices that we make, uh, probably sometimes we might bring that on ourselves, and often we don't. You know, people's decisions impact us in, in profound ways and can cause a lot of pain and hurt. I guess the challenge is how do we react? To that? How do we respond to that? We can respond with anger and hate and bitterness. And I've seen people change where their loathing and their anger is so strong it's diminished their countenance. They are consumed by this hate. I've met people sadly who allow hate and anger and bitterness to consume and take over their lives. And they're very unhappy people, very sad and miserable people. And then there are those who have gone through similar, at times even worse experiences, at times, and they've got this capacity to love and to forgive. And I think, you know, it sounds like you've gone through this journey then, this experience yourself, where you've learned through your trials and tribulations this extraordinary capacity to maybe not forget. I think it's harder to forget, but to forgive. And what's the secret behind that, do you think? How do you get to that point, that strength where you're just able to forgive? I don't fully understand it. I'm not there, I think. And I've got my own journey to travel, as we all do. But what's the secret, if there's any secret? What's the answer? How do you get to that state of mind where you're able to forgive and move on? And then re— you know, like you're doing right now, you're rediscovering yourself. And you use the word rebuilding, you know, your album's around rebuilding yourself. What's that? You know, what are those methods, those ideas that get you to where you are in your heart and in your mind, if they exist, whatever.

I think that, well, I know that there are specific methods because I, so I researched it. I spent the last, so I spent, as you know, the last year with my father. He still has not passed, but he is at this point awake maybe 10, 15 minutes a day. And, uh, just doesn't know how to die. But he's in a care facility now. I was home taking care of him while he— well, we could bring him home and interacting with him. And we, we talked a lot about forgiveness and the importance of it. And I began to look into it because he kept telling me, forgive, son, forgive, you know. And ironically, you know, he, he, he looked at me and he said that he had forgiven me. Right, for everything that I had done. And, and I was like, thank you. I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful to receive forgiveness. Now, you could choose to be offended. Well, why, why do you have to forgive me? That's one tactic to go. But for me, I am someone seeking forgiveness. And so if you say you want to forgive me, I openly accept it. Thank you. Please.

Right.

And, and so learning to accept forgiveness, I think first comes with resolving within yourself and loving yourself. You will never, until you truly love and accept who you are and forgive yourself all your shortcomings, you're not going to be able to offer that to someone else. You may claim you want to, but, uh, I remember my young son, he's so much like me. You know, my, my boy. And he would do these things that just would irritate the crap out of me because they were the very things that I didn't like about myself. I truly did not like these things about myself. And, uh, and so I wanted to, um, shame them out of him, right? That was the way my instinct was geared. And I learned very quickly that's not how I want to treat my boy. I want him to feel loved. And I had to turn into myself and accept my shortcomings, my capacity to forget a schedule, my ability to leave a house 6 times, forget my keys, forget my, you know, all these ADHD things that I have within my brain that are the limitations, the limiting side of my brain. I had to learn to love and accept. And in doing that, I found great humor in my son. No longer did I find him irritating, right? And so learning to balance the scales, there are things, right? I mean, my abuse, my abuser, I have been able to balance that. I don't carry hatred or anger toward that man. He was a 16-year-old boy when he was abusing me. And, uh, he clearly had been treated worse by his own parents. You know, I was so fortunate. I did not have parents do the things to me that he did to me. My parents loved me. And, and this boy, his father did things that he did, had done to me. And I can imagine my own father doing that to me. It's staggering to think that a man would treat his child in that way, right? And now if I just fall into forgiveness for this boy, well, that neglects the fact that he also made a choice. I never did any of that stuff to anyone else, you know? And so that neglects blatant that negates his own power to have chosen a different path. So I have to also say these things were bad. I accept that they were bad. I know the balance and the register of what was bad. I also know the balancer and the register of what was good with this guy. There was a piece of me that loved him because of the things that we did together. As a young boy, I admired him.

Right?

And balancing that scale and recognizing the good and the bad together opens the path to forgiveness. But we often fall into either bedevilment or enshrinement. We, we turn that person into an absolute horrible person, right? Say if you're in a divorce, everything about your spouse, if all you can ever remember now is the bad, You have not balanced your scale. You must remember the good. There was good there. And only upon remembering the good and recognizing the bad can you then say, I offer my forgiveness and truly give it and find it. And otherwise, you're out of balance. You're either looking for retribution or ignoring the need for it, or, you know, something like that. And there's actually books you can get. I've read several of them and they'll take you through a process that will allow you to ferret out all the things that you need to. It takes work. And I would say much of forgiveness heals grief. So if you've lost something you love, look to forgive. That is your path to getting over it. And it's, it is it's profound. It'll free you. It'll free you up so you can do something new.

It's the, the value of what you're saying is, is significant. If we can learn that, you know, and you know, we, you talk about a capacity to forgive others and then you talked about the, the ability or the need to forgive oneself. And sometimes the second one is, can be harder than together. Yeah. Um, so, and I have no answers. You've, you've certainly got more insights in that than I have, you know, being able to forgive oneself. And I think that's one of the challenges that we, we all experience at times is how do we forgive oneself? 'Cause that, I think that affects our self-esteem, our self-worth, how do you, how we see ourselves, affects our countenance, our spirits. It can affect us in profound ways if we can't forgive oneself. And I don't have any answers or solutions how we can do that. You've just, you've moved to Hiroshima. You're on this extraordinary adventure, this quest. You're writing, producing an album. You've gone to Hiroshima, Japan to reconnect with yourself, renew, restore yourself. Japan has, uh, ex— you know, profound experiences, spiritual experiences in history for you. You connect with the culture.

What are you—

you know, the next— this next chapter in your life while you're over there, um, what are you hoping to get from it? But aside from the, the album and writing, what are you hoping to get from it? And also, could you speak to your relationship your spiritual relationship with the music?

Yeah, I think, honestly, I think that that is really what I'm trying to reconnect with is the way through which I can appreciate and love the God that I was raised to believe in. I, you know, there's that parable where men are given talents. And one goes out, you know, he's given 4 talents, and he goes out and he works really hard and multiplies those 4 talents, gets 8. Another one is given 2 talents, goes out, multiplies, comes back with 4 talents. One's given 1. Out of fear of losing that 1, that person buries that talent and hides. And when very come to the Lord, they show their talents. Lord says, what did you do with yours? I buried it. And the Lord takes that talent away.

Right?

And I don't think that God's gonna take any of your talents away. I don't believe that. But the idea is that if you don't use your talent, you will lose it. That it's just the nature of not using it. You're gonna lose that talent. And there's a tragedy in that. And we often feel like our talents, I know for me, I compare my capacity. I have a very musical family. I have sisters, two of my sisters that are living in Vernon. When they adjudicated for the Royal Conservatory professional music performance degrees that they got, they both received the highest score in Canada, right? They're incredible singers. Incredible, right? They're trained. They have knowledge. I don't read any musical notes. I can't read a note. Um, I have no training. Uh, I play guitar really like a hack. I know some chords. I'm not a good guitar player, right? So when I start in the comparison world, I compare myself to the professionals that I know and the people out there that I you know, admire. I am an utter hack, right? But I love music. I love it. And it heals me. And writing is something that I really love, but I struggle to write because I'm, I have dyslexia. And so it's hard for me to get what's in here on a paper. It never seems to match for me. So I do multiple revisions of a song. Before it actually is some semblance of what is in my head down to the paper because it don't transfer well. Um, it's a lot of work and when it's all said and done, it's not even close to as good as what I think the people I admire could produce, but it's what I got. It's the very best that I have and the doing of it. It makes me feel like God sees me, right? Because I remember practicing my songs as I was— I spent the summer, I would go every Friday at about 2 o'clock and sit at the beach. I'd find an isolated spot somewhere. So busy now. It's not like when I was a kid. No matter where I went, there was going to be some people who would pass. And I had so many people come up to me and thank me for singing. I had people stop on the lake. I had boats that would line up and stop and then applaud when I left. And I would be like, oh, there's people appreciating what I'm doing. And I could be embarrassed because of my lack of skill, because I can't read a note, because I'm untrained. And I could hide, or I could do what I'm doing and just go for it and have fun with it and see where it takes me and let God fill in the rest, right? And that, that is the adventure of life. And, and I am seeking life, and life is not a place lived in hiding and duty and retribution and drudgery. Life is a risk. It is a risk with every breath you take. You have no idea if this is your last. You just don't. So, and when we start to live with this idea of, I have some stuff, I want to do it. Um, I'm going to just I wrote this, I wrote the song today. It's been brewing in my mind. And, uh, the lyrics, I say, uh, I've been waiting here for 5 long years, having things, hoping things could be the same. And these 5 long years have made it clear It's time for me to change. I've been hiding from some dreams that have been thundering in my mind. And, and that, that is what's been going on my whole life. I've had dreams of writing music and doing what I'm doing. I actually writing a book too that I've had that I've been putting on the back burner forever. And it's, it thunders in my mind all the time. And you know why I don't do it? There's no money in it. There's no money in Indian. I have to make money. That's what everybody tells me. I have to make money. Well, I don't actually have to make money. I mean, I have to make enough to live, right? But you and I know what I'm talking about when I'm saying money. I've, I've been in business. I got my MBA. I have made good money. I've worked as a leadership development coach in private equity and in oil and gas, and I have made good money, what people call good money. And as much as I enjoyed it, it was not what I wanted the most. I'm doing that now, and I have no idea whether it'll bring me a penny at all. And I don't care. I truly don't care. Because what it brings me is this sense of satisfaction that is peace. It is the essence of peace. I'm pursuing in a dream. It's terrifying. It's adventurous. It's crazy, right? People think it's crazy.

They say it to me.

If you're not telling me that I'm crazy, I'm not doing anything worthwhile. That's how I see it. And, and so, yeah, what I'm doing, it's crazy. It's on the edge. I don't care what you call it. There's going to be people that tell me I'm irresponsible. Right. But you look at anybody that has done anything of value. There are naysayers that tell you don't do it. There are people that tell you you're crazy. There are people that tell you you shouldn't be doing this. You should be doing that. You've got to cut past all that noise, go to the rumbling in your brain that's screaming at you to do the thing that you want. Some people do that naturally. Many of us don't. Many of us do not. And so I am trying to hone in on that because I think that's where God speaks. God speaks in those rumblings in your mind.

I as I listen to you, I feel, and I'm saying, I'm not just saying this as a, you know, fabricated response, but I feel inspired, you know, when I listen to you and your story, your experience, your message is powerful. We get this one life, right? Hopefully we can live with we could be authentic, we could be ourselves. We have a spirit within us. We have a level of agency, some level of freedom, uh, hopefully some level of income where we can, uh, live and do some of the basic things that we want to do. You know, so many of us are stuck in the rut or not being the person that we feel we want to be or need to be inside. We following some some of this journey or some of the path of being dictated to or told to live a certain way. And I can understand there are certain, um, obviously there's some important responsibilities to follow, you know, children and bills and, you know, you can't escape the need to earn, you know, they need to earn an income, you know, we have to live and eat and, and live in accommodation, etc. And, and it's so easy to, I've seen so many friends and, and, and, um, that I know who have allowed work or that completely take over their lives and they're not happy. They're not being themselves. They're not following the dreams. And before they know it, I mean, people my age, I'm in my 50s, you know, people I grew up with who sadly are not with, you know, with us anymore. And there are people, you know, getting older and you know, are we putting off those dreams, those adventures, those journeys that we need to, uh, you know, our spirit cries out for? And it's extraordinary that you're able to, you see that, you understand that, and you're responding to that, that, that call of the spirit to, um, go on this extraordinary adventure to find yourself, rediscover yourself. Yes, you've got to work and, and, and pay your bills, and you're obviously able to do that. And you're trying to be the best self, to be authentic and to follow that spirit. Because, you know, like you say, at the end of the day, you know, we can just go like that. We've got a limited amount of time in it. And have we fulfilled our dreams and our goals? And I know so many friends of mine who haven't. They still long for that opportunity to explore themselves and go on an adventure. And you can't, it won't happen unless you make it happen. You've got to make it happen. And you've got, if you get friends and family around to support you and say, hey, you know, I want to do this and would you do it with me? Or, you know, I need some time to do this, to go find myself, go discover, maybe it's in a place, maybe it's, maybe it's some other experience that we need to rediscover ourselves. And I think so many of us are lost. James. We haven't found ourselves. We haven't, um, we're not, um, being ourselves. We're not following that, um, you know, that adventure. And I'm not just talking about, you know, getting up and moving to a different country. You know, we've done that. We came from the UK to Canada. That was an adventure. It's not that was scary as heck, but we did it. I mean, you're now in Japan. I mean, you know, Japan, because you served a mission there. So that makes it a little bit easier. You know, the culture there, et cetera. But, you know, I've learned, I learned so much from your message is so powerful around forgiveness, you know, forgiving oneself, rediscovering, rebuilding, you know, those relationships. And I have no doubt that this journey that you are on, will in some way at some time help you restore your personal relationships with, you know, with your, with your kids and be able to reconnect and, restore those, those, uh, you know, those new times, new memories, and a new period of, of happiness and peace and joy, I think will unfold before you as you are able to, um, you know, reinforce those, those relationships. I, I believe that. I, I really believe that. And I think the journey that you're on right now will, will connect those two points, you know, those relationships. I really believe that, James. When you're on and you're sharing your thoughts, I learned so much, and I know our listeners do as well. We're coming to a close here. And so I want to thank you again so much for coming on and being so courageous. And there's great strength in making ourselves vulnerable. I'm not there. I'm not strong enough. To do that. And I'm always amazed how people can open up and talk about their strengths and weaknesses and successes and failures. And there is extraordinary strength and power when we make ourselves vulnerable. I think most people, maybe not everyone, but I'd say the vast majority of people, people like me and so many people that feel like I do, are in awe when someone like you just talks about openly their vulnerability. It's refreshing and it's strength. You know, so many— there's a big part of society that sees kindness and vulnerability as a weakness. But I think most of us in society, in the world, most of us, not everyone, I think most of us hopefully, do see extraordinary strength and power when we open ourselves up, when we share our stories, experience, or when we make ourselves vulnerable. Because we learn so much about ourselves and about our humanity. And about the capacity that I think is inherent in most of us, maybe not all of us, to forgive and to love. You know, there are those that the scriptures talk about who are past feeling, and those people exist, the past feeling, they don't care, they may never care, James, right? They may never get to that point where they can forgive or love in the way that they could or should. But I think most people are not passively. Most people care. And I think most people are in awe of others who follow their journey, follow the spirit, and have found themselves. And I think they long for that. I think a lot of people long for that. So I think people would really connect with your experience, and I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing that. In closing, I'm wondering if, there's a couple of things I'd like to do if you're okay. I do want to— I did find the Lord's Prayer because I think it was really, really relevant. We kind of quoted most of it, but I just want to share it with you in full because I think it's very relevant here. At Christmas time, different stages of our life, we're trying to figure life out, learn more about ourselves, find ourselves, some of us, forgive ourselves, forgive others. And I think the Lord's Prayer, especially at Christmas time, is quite, quite unique and timely. And it goes like this. It says this: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. And my goodness, there's some incredible messages in there. I got one last question for you, for me, and then a request. And the request is, would you play us out at the end of the podcast with another one of your amazing songs, if you're okay with that?

Sure.

Your choice. But one question I've got before we get to that stage, and we talked about this earlier, bringing this back to the church, you know, we're living in extraordinary times. I guess you could say that at any point in time, but I think we're living in an interesting, geopolitically, world full of conflict. The church has and continues to make an extraordinary claim by any standards,, and that is the church claims to be the only true church upon the face of the earth, the only true church, and that the prophet President Nelson is the mouthpiece, the only one authorized and permitted to speak to God and speak to the world on behalf of God and Jesus Christ. That's an extraordinary claim by any standards. From your perspective, where you are in your journey, where you are in your life and where you are physically in Japan right now, in your experience and perspective in the church and of the church, what do you see as the role of the church is or should be or could be in 2025, given all the events that are happening in the world and given what I said earlier, that the prophet, President Nelson, speaks to the world, not just to the members,, on behalf of God and Jesus Christ as the only true Church of Jesus Christ? What's the me— what do you think the message should be or the direction should be from the church? And what's the role of the church in improving the world in 2025 and beyond? If you could provide any perspective on that, would be great.

Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I, I think If the church wants to pursue a Christlike message, there is one and true only message from Christ, which is when he was asked what the most important commandment of God was, he said, to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind, and strength. And the second is like unto it, to love thy neighbor as thyself. And that is the essence of all of it. And what is embedded within that, if you're going to love God and with all your heart and love your neighbor like you do yourself, start to forgive yourself, start to forgive your neighbor. Forgiveness is so essential. These wars I look at, right? I understand that the, um, Palestinians and the Jews have been fighting each other for generations. I get it. The Middle East and the Jewish people, they have a history of hatred. I understand that. I am not a part of that history. It is easy for me to look on them and say, forgive each other. But I don't have generations of pain and suffering and killing that have gone on. But I do know there is no justice or retribution that will cover the pain that they want to cover. The only thing that will cover it is forgiveness. The only thing that will cover it is love. And if you will take that as well into your own personal life, and you look into the spaces in your soul that are the most tormented and troubled. Love and forgiveness are the one things. I don't care about any of the other doctrine. All of it hangs on this. All of it. Love and forgiveness of each other. That is it.

What a wonderful, wonderful response. And, uh, what a wonderful feeling that we've we've had, you and I, talking this evening on this wonderful Boxing Day. James, you're a wonderful man. You're the best of any man out there. You're not perfect. I'm not saying you're perfect. None of us are. I'm not saying that. But you have a spiritual depth to you which is extraordinary. And I'm so grateful because it will help so many. You won't know We don't know to the extent of our lives and how they impact and influence others are what you say, but I know that this conversation will help so many at this time feel hopefully more love and hopefully a sense of a desire to forgive. So thank you so much. Could we close and would you kindly sing us one of your wonderful songs as we close our conversation this evening.

Yeah, I'll sing this song. I wrote it in 1999 at Christmastime. I was honestly on the verge. I was turning 30, fresh out of grad school. Everybody thought my life was perfect and I was ready to end it all because I was so depressed. And this song is called Do They Reach the Sky? And I think about it every year. I just was I was thinking about it the other day. I think about it every year at this time of year because I reflect on the fact of where I am and where I was. And, you know, by all accounts, if you were to compare my life at age of 30 with what I had and where I was living, what I was doing, to where I sit right now in my tiny little place in Japan, making no money. Just trying to get through the day, you would say, man, this guy should be depressed. And I am not depressed. I'm happy. And I like that reflection. I like to look at the difference between those two. But if you are someone that is struggling and wondering if your prayers reach the sky, I would say to you, they do. And find a friend that can remind you that God is here. Because God sees— God meets us through people like you, Ian, through our friends, right? That's how we get to see God. And so that's what this song is to me.

Stare in the mirror and the face that appears makes you feel real low. Day has begun, there's a lot to be done, going take it slow. A smile on the job and a firm handshake. People say you're great. Sit home alone watching the phone until it gets really late. When you say you're Prayers, do they reach the sky? Or do they just sink to the ground? When you're lying in bed, do you dream about life? Is dreaming about life just bringing you down? Walk out the door to see a brand new show, you buy that big popcorn, eat it alone, then you go home and rent a video. There's a knock at the door, but you stare away. Aye, you know your rent is late. Landlord says one more day and you're his, you'll be on the street. When you say your prayers, do they reach the sky? Or do they just sink to the ground? When you're lying in bed, do you dream about life? This dream about life just bring you down. When you were young, you set big goals and they sounded great. Now you rolling with money on down, it's a bit too late. You talk of the past, sounds like a blast, but Where's your future gone? You forgot who you are chasing for stars. Now you've come undone. When you say your prayers, do they reach the sky, or do they just sing to the ground. When you're lying in bed, do you dream about life? Does dreaming about life just bring you down?

That's it.

James, that was wonderful. Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me on.

Are you—

are you—

you're just a delightful individual. And on behalf of my family, I want to extend our love to you. Uh, you're such a wonderful individual, and I'm so grateful because, say, your message will strengthen so many, uh, on, on, in so many ways. So thank you so much. So folks, we are at the end of this extraordinary podcast with James here. James, thank you again for taking time to be with us. We hope our listeners have enjoyed this week's podcast and will get as much from it as I will. And until we reconnect and meet with you again when Jim Bennett is back in a few days, we'll continue our recordings and we look forward to being with Jim in the next week or so. Okay, but again, James, thank you for taking the time to be with us. We love you and appreciate you and wish you the best of Christmas and the very best for 2025 in your life.

Thank you so much.

Goodbye.