Joseph Smith: The Architect of Mormonism — A Conversation with Ganesh Cherian

Hello and welcome to all of you out there. I'm your co-host Ian Wilkes, and this is Inside Out. As always, I'm joined by the Mormon MCU equivalent, Ayamanth.

Ayamanth.

Jim Bennett. Oh, Jim.

Uh, hello. I am Iron Man. That's kind of fun.

I am Iron Man. We, we like the MCU movies and, and I, Jim Bennett, I think is the equivalent to Iron Man in the MCU. Courageous, witty, gritty, steely, with a big heart and unafraid to deal with the critical issues relating to the modern faith.

I just wish I were as wealthy as Iron Man.

Okay. How about witty, gritty, steely, and wealthy?

Oh, I wish. Well, thank you.

That's okay. Well, Jim, welcome. And as we're always excited to do these podcasts, and today is another very exciting episode with our listeners. It's going to be gripping and it's just going to be wonderful. And so all the way from the land of Gandalf and Lord of the Rings, We have a very special guest with us today, leading scholar and author, Ganeshi Cherian. Uh, Ganeshi, welcome to Inside Out.

It's lovely to be with you both. It's, it's, it's a real treat. I enjoy your podcast and, um, I learned a great deal from you, from you guys and your guests. And, uh, it's, uh, it's nice to be able to come and share a little bit of some of the things that I. Am involved in that hopefully will be to add to the conversations that you've already been having.

Just by way of pronunciation, it's Ganesh, is that right?

Correct, yeah. So on Facebook, I have Ganesh G, which is the G on the end of my name. And my name's from India. Ganesh is a god. G is an honorarium, a sign of respect. So it's kind of like saying Sir Ganesh, but I, I just let people just call me Ganesh rather than Sir Ganesh.

All right. Well, thank you for that. Ganesh, again, welcome. So we have Iron Man and we have God on Inside Out.

Uh, so that was— I was already well primed for Mormonism because I already had a God complex, uh, long before I, before I, my parents converted.

Hey, we've been trying to get God on this Inside Out podcast for a long time. And, uh, so finally we, uh, We've made it. We've arrived.

He hasn't answered any of my emails.

So, well, you know, I'm very busy and email's not my preferred medium of contact. You know, it's more face-to-face. So, you know, I only answer when we're together.

Well, Dinesh, it's wonderful to have you. And Dinesh, you tell us about yourself, your background, and also lead us into, as the conversation goes forward naturally, lead us into your amazing book titled The Architect of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, the Architect of Mormonism. Before I, before you do that, I want to have a call out to Rebecca and Landon, who Rebecca was kind enough to introduce us. And that's how we've got to know you through Rebecca. Rebecca and Landon, they own and operate and run a very successful podcast called Mormish. And we are big Fans of Balmage. We love those guys. And so Rebecca Brandon, thank you for making this introduction. Uh, back to you, Ganesh. Tell us about yourself, your background, and then lead us into the conversation about your book titled Joseph Smith, the Architect of Mormonism.

Right. Well, I grew up in Wellington, New Zealand. I am, um, my, I was actually born in India. My dad is from India and my mother is from New Zealand. She went traveling and brought back some souvenirs. Um, and so I was one of those 7 years and, and growing up in Wellington, my parents, um, both from quite religious, um, Christian backgrounds, uh, joined the church when I was quite young. And so I grew up in the church in Wellington. And, um, when I was a teenager, I went to Church College, which was a, a LDS high school, um, in Hamilton. It was a boarding school, so it's 7 hours away from from Wellington, and I had an incredible time there. Plus, I ended up being the student body president for, for what was a kind of slightly American school, um, and very closely aligned, of course, with the church. I then, um, the next year after I'd finished school, I went on a mission at 18 to Auckland, which wasn't very far away from where I went to school, but it was the next mission to where I live in Wellington. And, uh, I, I met my future wife there, um, who was an American missionary. And, uh, a few years later when I toured the United States, we met up again and, um, ended up getting married and, and making our lives in Wellington. Um, because I'd married an American, um, I got certain amount of privilege in the in, in the church, uh, was called to the High Council very early on and then into several bishoprics. And, um, when I was in my early 30s, I, I was the Bishop of, of Wellington Ward, uh, for a number of years. And then my, after I was released, I, we went and lived in the States in Wyoming where my wife's parents had, uh, relocated and retired. And my mother-in-law's health was failing and we took our children. We got to live in a small town, um, in a little place called Powell, which is just outside of Cody, Wyoming, next to Yellowstone, a gorgeous part of the country. Um, but it would, it certainly was an eye-opener for me who I visited the States many times, would come and stayed for extended periods of time, but actually living in the States was quite different and that period of time was during the Mitt Romney-Obama election. And so I was really fascinated by the intersection of politics and religion in the Mountain West and the kinds of things that that brought up for, um, you know, my perspective, the perspective of the church. And I started to realize that a number of the stories about our history that I had learned as a missionary and as an institute teacher and certainly as a bishop, it may have been slightly truncated or very simplified. And so I did a lot of research while I was in the States, um, coming to terms with some of Mormonism's more troubling history and how it affected the doctrines of the church, including for me personally, most of them were around violence, um, in the Mountain West, uh, you know, including things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre and racism, because, you know, I'm brown and, and, and, and then being in a, in a place where that wasn't always, um, a benefit, um, except when I opened my mouth, the moment I opened my mouth in, in, in little town, um, Powell, um, I was a local hero because I didn't realize this, but the hunting community of Wyoming, their ultimate dream was to hunt red stag in New Zealand. And so I went from zero to hero very quickly the moment I opened my mouth in, in that state. And it gave me some really interesting pause about racism, some of the, the, you know, the marginalization of the various communities in the United States. And I started to ask questions about that aspect in relation to the church and its tricky racial past. So those kinds of things led me down a number of church history rabbit holes and, um, and, and, and a faith transition. When we went back to New Zealand, I, um, I was called back onto the high council. And, um, fortunately for me, as my shifting faith, uh, was happening, the church released the Gospel Topics Essays in the latter part of 2013 and into 2014, and I started, they vindicated and validated a lot of the things that I had come to already understand. Um, and so I started to blog on a, on a, a famous, uh, Kiwi Mormon blog, which was run by Gina Colvin at the time. And, um, and that became quite viral. Um, my thoughts got me released from the High Council at the time. Um, And, but my interest in church history just blossomed and I had to know and understand why things were the way they were. And so this led to a, you know, kind of a 10-year deconstruction, but also a greater understanding of Mormon history. So, um, parts of that happened, um, in relation to the book after COVID. A couple of things that happened that were really significant to me. One was that I, you know, Sunstone, which I didn't get to attend because I was so far away, but because of COVID some of those, uh, you know, presentations were put online. One of them was by William Davis, who, um, talked about his book Visions in the Seer Stone, and that really impressed me about the idea of the Book of Mormon being an orit— oratory production. And at the same time, uh, Dan McClellan was becoming quite big on TikTok, um, and he was talking about biblical criticism. Um, but when he talked about the church and the Book of Mormon, you know, he didn't say much, but the— what he said was basically it's a 19th century text, and the best way to understand the Book of Mormon was through a 19th century lens. And so I began, um, writing a couple of small articles, what I thought it was small articles, just about the differences I could see in the Book of Mormon text as opposed to what happened in Nauvoo, um, and some of our unique doctrines in the church. And so when once I started to compare things in the Book of Mormon to doctrines that had become a big part of the church by Nauvoo and through into the present day, I recognized that there were a number of differences, sometimes contradictions and I started to write on those, those, and not on that basis. When I made some comparisons, I started to realize a lot of those differences had a lot to do with Joseph Smith himself and his, uh, his evolving development, particularly his maturity. Um, and it seemed apparent to me that the Book of Mormon was really a a treatise on Joseph Smith as a 23-year-old, and Nauvoo was very much Joseph as a, um, you know, as a, as a leader, uh, as a 38-year-old. And so what started to be a very small article just got bigger and bigger and evolved, and I ended up making a lot of comparisons. So the, the book evolved into a biography, an explanation of the beginnings of the church and the ways that Joseph himself, uh, affected the text of the Book of Mormon, the, you know, the early revelations. And there was usually some form of conflict that meant that he had to pivot or change. And then what we saw from that change was what became Nauvoo in Illinois. And so it became apparent that the best way to explain these changes and these topical differences were through an understanding of Joseph Smith's life. So then I looked at his early life, his environment, his family dynamics, his own personal circumstances, and, and then also, of course, from his death, what happened to those, some of those doctrines as they went forward into the, um, into the future. So the book, which is a biography, a topical biography, allows you to kind of look at a particular topic and track it through Joseph's life from his birth effectively through to his death, um, and some of the aftermath. And, uh, it became a really good way of being able to understand what was happening in the church. And for me, when I started to, you know, understand that the church's history was really complex, The idea of attacking it topic by topic gave it some consistency and some structure that allowed me to explore these things without getting overwhelmed. And so I hope that that's also what the reader gets, is the idea that they can look at a particular topic and track it through Joseph's life and see its development and evolution and come to an understanding of why these things are the way they are today. And so you can read it in order. It's got a particular structure, but you can also kind of popcorn it and choose your own adventure by looking at the things that are important to you first, maybe, and then looking at other things as they, they come up or that they, they interest you. So, um, that's basically what the book is. Um, I'm fortunate that I've, that I released about the same time as, uh, as John Turner's biography of Joseph, his new biography. So there's kind of these, we've got these two great books that look at Joseph and look at his life in depth and completely different ways, but reach many of the same conclusions. And so it's, it's, it's a really rich time to, to investigate the church. By investigating its founding, you know, prophet and to come to some, you know, greater understandings about what was going on and how it was affecting people and, you know, what we've inherited, um, in the 21st century because of these really important dynamics back in 1830 through to 1844.

That was a fantastic overview and introduction, Ganesh. Before we get into some of this stuff, and I know Jim Bennett and I are excited to learn more and we've got some questions for you. I want to ask you, as you research the book and you studied and you prepared to write the book and as you're writing the book, how much of your own personal experience and the culture that you are from in New Zealand, for example, the relationship between The Priesthood and Blacks and Priesthood and People of Colour. You referenced that earlier. How much of your own personal experience and your culture influenced the writing of the book? And, and, and if you could just lead into, I've got another part B, uh, question. What's been the reaction in New Zealand? What was the reaction in New Zealand? When the priesthood ban was lifted? What's that history with the priesthood in New Zealand? So this, this, this kind of a two-part question there. Yeah. I know that's covered in your book quite a bit.

Uh, yeah. So there's a, so firstly, I guess for me personally, um, uh, when you're writing something, of course, you're writing often about things that you feel particularly passionate about. And so there are definitely a number of chapters in the, in the book that I found particularly important to me. One of them, you know, is race, you know, so I have a, I have a chapter on white supremacy. Um, the, the other one, because I live in New Zealand and, uh, you know, Polynesians are generally identified as, you know, Lamanites, um, kind of coming out of Haggoth. Um, in Alma chapter 50. Um, I have a real— I mean, I'm Indian, so I'm not actually Polynesian, but because I'm brown and the church in New Zealand is predominantly brown, um, that I get lumped in with that. And I certainly feel those same kinds of feelings, you know, the whole idea of, um, native and indigenous identity tied to, um, things like the Book of Mormon, but also Mormonism in general. Those are things that are really quite precious to me, and, you know, I have strong feelings about. And so I have a whole section on Native American understanding because generally, you know, the Book of Mormon's trying to explain Native Americans to a, you know, Gentile white audience. Um, so those things are, are really big. Uh, for in terms of the priesthood ban and the way that it worked in New Zealand, because Polynesians were seen to be, you know, part of the House of Israel. They didn't necessarily have any restrictions on them with regard to the priesthood. However, one of the crazy things is that New Zealand is actually, you know, a day ahead of the rest of the world. So we, we did have in, you know, I'm, you know, when the priesthood ban was lifted in 1965. 78, I was only 6 years old, but I was a member of the church. Well, I mean, I was attending church, but, um, in our building, our wards, um, they did have some people of African descent. And when that, uh, that, um, edict was put forward that all worthy males could have the priesthood, New Zealand and Wellington in the Wellington West Ward at the time, ordained the first Black person to the priesthood because their Sunday happened before everybody else's Sunday. We're the first, you know, so actually we have a kind of a really interesting link to the priest restriction being lifted. So that's really cool. But generally, you know, a lot of the, like, I just, I went, I was in Memphis yesterday. I went to the National Museum of Civil Rights and that's a, it's a harrowing, harrowing story. And, um, you know, I feel very grateful in some, some respects that, you know, my racial past and journey has been at a very low level and compared to particularly African Americans. But my journey in the church has not been without its racial kind of overtones too, because, you know, because I'm brown, you know, there's certainly been times in my life where that has been less than in regard to the church. So that's, those are things that I, you know, I'm passionate about because they have affected me personally. Various chapters in the book, I was really interested when I started to talk to other people about them, particularly across the world, um, because I have a number of friends, uh, you know, various countries, you know, they were seeing different things in the Book of Mormon and they were seeing different things in the church that will resound with them. And so, so while there are a number of chapters that, that quite personal to me. There were a number of things too that once I started talking to people, they said, oh gosh, these are the things that I see. And I was totally oblivious to them. So it's what's been really lovely is that I've been able to compile a number of different topics, which, um, I think give a really great breadth of the church and its connection to people across the world. Um, And then part of that's my privilege being outside the United States, but having this really intimate connection, particularly with the United States and with Utah and with the Mountain West, you know, I've been able to, you know, buy in lots of different feelings. And in terms of my, the reception in, in New Zealand, the book has been, you know, well respected, um, it has. Got a good reception from my friends. Um, not so much from my stake presidency. They're not very excited about that. Um, I think they feel very, you know, and anybody writing about church history, particularly tough church history is, you know, people are very wary of that. And I, and despite the fact that the members of the stake presidency and they're all good friends, they, they feel very responsible for upholding a narrative and protecting people. And I get that. I was being a bishop. I've, you know, I have felt the same way about the ward. So, um, that's really a trickiness to navigate. And hopefully I'm in a position of, you know, good mental health, but also, um, great privilege in the church to be able to talk about hard things with a lot of grace and empathy. And one of the things I think that you both do incredibly well is model that kind of dialogue. And that's something that I'm very passionate about too. So even in the book, when I'm talking about hard things, I've checked it with lots of other people to make sure the tone has been right. I've had to be corrected a few times by my editor to go, oh, you're being too hard because those issues are hard for me, you know, and But, you know, and if in any way my book's aligned with the kind of channel that you run is the idea that, you know, I'm really concerned because I am a bishop, right? People talk to me about their, the trickiness that they come across with regard to the church and how it affects their relationships, particularly, you know, and distances people. That I hope, one of my great hopes for the book has been to, you know, provide a bridge between faithful and critical narratives so that people can talk to each other. Um, cause I found that lots of people who have left the church feel incredibly betrayed and, and that makes it difficult for them to talk to, to members of their family that are still in. Um, and you know, I don't shy away from those hard things in the book so people can go and see and be validated that these are real things that they, you know, they're quite justified to feel worried about. But also at the same time, if they see the trajectory of Joseph on many levels, they can have empathy for a young Joseph who's trying to make his way in the world and he's making mistakes and he's coming across, you know, problems and he's creating solutions. And some of those, uh, uh, inspiring and innovative, and some of them are quite horrific and, and damaging and harmful. So I hope that that provides some healing for people who have, who have left or are feeling uncomfortable, that they can feel validated, um, but also develop some empathy for Joseph. And then also for, for, for people who are in the church who are worried about their family leaving, that they can read this and go, oh, I can see why people might have a hard, hardness with this. And at the same time, be able to feel like they can see Joseph's development and trajectory and feel like it's, it's positive or, you know, or at least Um, you could see why he's there and, and maybe feel, and, and this could go to being able to bridge that gap and for people inside the church and outside the church talking to each other about these issues. So, you know, one of the things that I've loved about your channel and listening to you speak, um, has been with that motivation in, in mind. And, uh, yeah, and I don't have the same ethos in the ways that I want to help people because I see pain and I want to alleviate that.

Wonderful. Jim Bennett, thank you, Ganesh Bennett. Just to bring Jim Bennett in here. What's— Jim Bennett, you've had the opportunity to kind of review to an extent the book. What's your thoughts and feelings, your initial take on the book?

It's very thoughtful. It's clearly very well researched. The thing that I'm very curious about, Ganesh Bennett, is your personal sort of reaction to Joseph on a personal level, because one of the things— Joseph is very much an enigma in a lot of ways for a lot of people, and they look at— everybody sort of tries to pigeonhole him into a certain framework, and that's very difficult to do. Dan Vogel, for instance, has sort of created what I think is the primary model for people who are critical of the church, which is what he calls the pious fraud model. The idea that Joseph believed at some point Joseph was a fraud, and yet at some point convinced himself that he wasn't, convinced himself that he truly was a prophet. And in my encounters with Joseph, I, um, the one thing that— especially when I try to wrestle with polygamy, which I don't see any, um, any element of that that makes Joseph look good. I, uh, but the, the one way where I can find a way to give grace to him is that I very much get the sense that Joseph Smith was a believer, that, that his faith was genuine, that, uh, he, he— I, I don't see any indication in anything that he wrote or that people close to him wrote or the people who knew him wrote that would indicate that he was consciously perpetuating a fraud. And so whenever people— I, you know, we talked to Richard Bushman on this podcast— and whenever people examine Joseph's life closely, I— the, the one thing that I am always interested in is finding out how they feel about him personally. And you've talked about, you know, you've gone through a kind of reconstruction of your faith, or or transition. You— so I mean, you do get into this, I think, somewhat in the book, but at the same time, I would love to just sort of hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, well, Joseph is complex. He's a whole human being. I think that there's a number of things that are that are going on for him. Um, and I, I have a kind of a conclusion that talks about a number of justifications that I think Joseph is doing. Um, he feels very, uh, he feels very important. Like, there's a couple of things that I think are going on for Joseph. He is— he needs to save his family. They are in desperate circumstances, in destitution, and he feels very responsible to be the leader, to take them out of their circumstance and to really redeem them from their poverty. And at the same time, he's— the Smiths are the poor cousins. So he's also trying to redeem him in the eyes of his community and his wider family. And he sees that as a necessity, as survival, uh, for Joseph. He, um, and so there's parts of that that I think that he sees himself as, you know, he sees himself as important. He also sees himself as needing to do certain things, and, and that justifies a number of fudges, you know, that he has to make. Um, and I think he interprets that, uh, or justifies that in this idea of being something spiritual and a God that is willing to invest in him if he's willing to put the effort in. And some of those efforts are a little dubious from an outside objective point of view, but internally he's feeling like this is an important thing for him to accomplish. So, uh, yes, I think he's a believer. Um, there are certain motivations that mean that as he, um, as he gets particularly resources, he feels like God is blessing him with those things. So God is approving of some of his methods. And one of these methods I, you know, I detail in the book is the idea that, you know, if you convert somebody, your sins are forgiven you. Which also suggests that the ends justify the means. So if you, if you convince somebody that they need to join the church, let's say it's maybe a little fraudulent or, um, a little dishonest, but they join and they commit themselves to Christ, then that's okay, right? Then, then you're— that Jesus's cloak covers that and your sins are forgiven you. That's a big part of the Doctrine and Covenants, and I— and Joseph employs that justification. A lot through his life. So one of the things I think that happens to him is initially he's just trying to survive and he's just trying to make a way for his family to have accommodation. They've been evicted from their house. Um, but as he becomes more important, as he assumes more roles, he does become entitled and emboldened. And he does take liberties, and some of those liberties end up harming other people while they enrich him. And so one of the things I, I kind of show, or at least my own personal feelings, is that I can have a huge empathy for a young Joseph trying to make his way in the world, but I need to call out and, and, and have accountability for an older Joseph who has, become his own god and, and is, and is furthering his own interests at the expense of others. And so that's kind of where I come to. I don't, I, I slightly agree with Dan Vogel's idea of a pious fraud, but I also agree with yours, Jim, that, you know, in many ways he's very sincere and He feels very vindicated by what is happening to him and around him. Um, but that to me smacks of entitlement, not so much as, you know, as the idea that he's doing exactly what God wants. He, he, I feel like it's the other way around. He does it and then he, he imagines a God that, that believes that that's okay. And so that's kind of what I happen. So one of the. One of my author's notes at the end, I basically say, look, I love this Joseph. I see him as dynamic and innovative and creative and, and he's able to build community in some really impressive ways. And he, he does it at the expense and harm of others, which I think is an important part for the church to reconcile and take accountability for. And even me as a bishop, right? Like that, that I, some of my advantage and privilege in the church has come on the back of other people's marginalization. And that's a really important entitlement that I've had to reconcile and, and be able to go, look, this is not okay. You know, because I'm a heterosexual man who, you know, is leadership. You know, the church felt incredibly good to me, but that meant that there were people who were, you know, female and, and homosexual and, um, and maybe not outgoing who were incredibly sidelined by the church. And some of my, you know, the— yeah, and that's a difficult thing to come to, and I hope that that's actually part of what book does is it gets, gives you the idea of, hey, we need to be accountable for some of these things that we have promoted as God's word, like, like polygamy, that actually caused huge amounts of harm to lots of people. And part of it, part of our, you know, our future as a responsible organization, but also particularly a, you know, a place that provides peace is that we also need to recognize that there are a number of harms that are created by Joseph's life and the way he lived his life that we are still investing in today, which we need to look really closely at.

This is, for me, extraordinary. I've not heard this aita, this issue, this point understood or articulated and communicated so well in this way ever. The idea that, uh, Joseph, um, committed fraudulent activities from time to time, which I'd like you to give an example of after these, this, this few words, and consequently there was some success, there was some improvement, some reward. It worked out. It, you know, this, um, illegal or fraudulent action turned into success. And the, the idea that he attributed that to being a prophet of God and attributed those experiences, fraudulent decisions and activities, behaviors, and successes that came from that, attributed that to an endorsement of God. Spiritualization, uh, of his, of his mandate, his prophetic, uh, uh, role, um, as the prophet and, and therefore emboldened him. That's what you said. And then reinforced, uh, the idea in his own mind with all of his charisma and his extraordinary imagination, just an individual that didn't think like so many other people who had this extraordinary, uh, ability to imagine things and so charismatic. But as he had these successes from these, um, illegal activities that reinforced his own vision, uh, that then led to a sense of entitlement. I find that absolutely extraordinary. Um, I've not heard it discussed like that before. Am I understanding that correctly? And then the other point is, could you give an example of where he did something fraudulent, dishonest, um, with any, you know, reliable facts to support that. And what was the outcome, uh, the successful outcome from that? And what led from there? Could, could you lead us in that direction, Ganesh?

I can give, I can give you one really early on in the piece, and that is in the dictation sequence of the book Mormon. So what I can see from the text, and in, in many ways the book does a number of, I think, quite clever things, and one of them is it's, it's a bit of a literary anthropology. You can look at the dictation sequence of the Book of Mormon and see some developments in there that are really key to how Joseph himself is developing. Um, Brett Metcalfe, you know, for in his 1993 anthology, you know, the New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, you know, really solidified that idea of a Mosiah priority to the dictation sequence of the Book of Mormon. And, um, that's one of the things that I, when I'm examining the text and keying it to Joseph's life, there are some things that I can see are really interesting. One of them is that the Book of Mormon seems to finish at the, at the end of 4 Nephi. So 4 Nephi is one chapter, right? It's, it's, it's 200 years, 300 years in one chapter. Joseph is rushing to finish the Book of Mormon at that point. This is the point where I think that Joseph and Oliver moved to the Whitmer farm. So he's, he's rushing to finish it because Joseph doesn't know the Whitmers. He doesn't, um, he's never met them. Oliver has a relationship with David Whitmer, and that's what they're using to get away from Harmony when things get tough. Joseph is expecting to move to Tafaya, New York. And the Book of Mormon's finished. He gets reunited with the lost manuscript from Martin, and the Book of Mormon's finished, off to publication. That's what's happening. Um, but there are two things that he doesn't envision. One is that he gets to Fayette— well, a good evidence of the, that this is the case is he doesn't take the plates with him to Fayette. Because he doesn't need them. You know, he doesn't need the plates because there's no new— there's no additions to the Book of Mormon. But when he gets to Fayette, two things that, uh, that he doesn't envision. One is that, um, he can't retrieve the lost manuscript despite the fact that he's got this powerful seer stone and he's convinced that he's going to be able to get it back from Martin. Um, he can't get it back, and so he has to envision a whole new process. And the other really important thing that happens is the Whitmers, they think he's something special. Now, up to this point in the Book of Mormon, um, justify his seer stone use, particularly to the wider, um, Hale family, particularly his father-in-law Isaac Hale. You know, Mosiah has the seer stones and he can see the future and he can, you know, he can translate plates. And he can, you know, bring forth the word of God. That's exactly what Joseph is doing in harmony. But when he gets to the Whitmers, they are, you know, Oliver Cowdery has been writing back and forth to David Whitmer, and the Whitmers are really excited about Joseph. They believe that this is a new church, that this is a good communication from God, and the Book of Mormon changes. You know, he's got to fill in some material and they ask him questions. So that's why we have Mormon and then we have Ether, because, you know, the, the Book of Mormon and Mosiah says that, that Mosiah has translated the, the, the, the information of the Jaredites and it's not in the current Book of Mormon, so he's got to put that in. So that's where Ether comes from. Moroni comes in. But 1st and 2nd Nephi talk a lot about Nephi And to the point where Nephi identifies Joseph as a new prophet, as a new holy man, as a new, um, you know, kind of person that you, that you can rely on. And he actually designates this in the text. Son Joseph, son of Joseph, is going to be this great new seer. And so, um, to your point. In question. So this is an example of where, you know, Joseph's just producing a text, he's gonna make a publication, but he gets to Fayette, he's having to solve some issues like the lost manuscript and, you know, some holes in the plot that the, the Whitmers identify. And these increase the spirituality of the Book of Mormon, but they also identify Joseph, because the Whitmers believe he's a prophet, that he can say things in the text like Joseph, son of Joseph, is going to be a prophet. And this becomes, um, Joseph taking on this prophetic mantle, you know. And we know this from a number of, um, texts, and particularly, um, Doctrine and Covenants section 5, where in that text it says that You know, Joseph's only gift is to bring forth the Book of Mormon by the 1835.

You're cutting out, Ganesh.

Comes a big thing. Um, does that—

yeah, you cut out there for a bit, last sentence or two, we missed it.

Oh, sorry. So, so Yeah, Joseph's, um, uh, Doctrine and Covenants section 5, the original text says that the Book of Mormon is the only thing that Joseph is going to do, and he's not to pretend to any other gift. But by the 1835 version of that revelation, um, it is changed to this is his first gift, and he's going on to do other things. So these are some ways that The narrative changes as Joseph goes along, as he becomes more emboldened, as he becomes more entitled, as he becomes— as people rely on him. And Joseph believes that the fact that the Whitmers are believing in him is proof from God that God is really giving him these things. So it's a cycle, it's a circle, you know, of self, uh, you know, appointment. And, you know, the fact that the Whitmers are getting these incredibly wonderful feelings, testimonies, emotional, you know, investments into what Joseph is doing is proof that God is, you know, touching their hearts. And, and actually what Joseph is doing is, you know, divine. And therefore it, it just goes round and around this confirmation circle. Does that answer your question?

It does. Yeah. And I see that in the church today, you know, where something happens, you know, major revelation or something happened, decision. And, you know, it could be a terrible decision, you know, like the, um, you know, banning, uh, blessings for children of, uh, uh, gay parents and reversing all that. And, and proclamation to the world and a whole series of problems and issues that the church has got itself in hot water, covering up the history and not being open and transparent and just kind of feeding drip by drip information to its members, but a whole series of flaws and issues relating to fallibility of prophets. And so when You know, it's just, uh, the church is an extension of Joseph Smith and it's patterned after him. I think the church is quite different in many ways. And one of the other interesting things that was a highlight for me in the book, uh, and I want to get Jim's thoughts on this as well, is to ask you about your relationship with the Book of Mormon. Um, which I think is a good segue from the last few remarks that he made about the Book of Mormon. You mentioned in our correspondence before the conversation here today that you listened to the podcast that Jim Bennett did with Steve Pynakker on Mormon Book Review. And we had this conversation about the origin of the Book of Mormon. My relationship with the Book of Mormon is that it is not an historical text, yet I find it incredibly inspiring. It just inspires me. Almost all of it inspires me. So does the Doctrine and Covenants. And yes, the Pearl of Great Price, including Abraham. I find it amazing. I know, uh, from certain sources it's not reliable, but I get a lot of inspiration from it. Uh, Jim, what's your relationship with the Book of Mormon? And then Ganesh, I want to ask you, what's your— with all your research in your book and your knowledge about Joseph Smith, what's your relationship with the Book of Mormon and where do you think it came from? Jim Bennett, you first. Just tell us what— remind us, Jim, what's your relationship with the Book of Mormon?

Well, I mean, we've talked about this quite a bit, and the Book of Mormon remains sort of the anchor of my faith. With regard to historicity, you know, and all of those kinds of things, we had that lengthy discussion with Stephen Pynaker about that. It's more important to me that there's some sort of ancient element to the Book of Mormon than there is that it's historical. I mean, I, I think that distinction has become more and more important, uh, as you look, for instance, at biblical texts. There are so many biblical texts that are not historical. I am absolutely, uh, I, I, I don't think there's any question, for instance, that the Book of Job is not ancient journalism. Yeah, it's allegorical, but it's, it's also historic. I mean, it's ancient even though it's not historical. And, uh, I, I think that the arguments that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century, a product of the 19th century, um, and has so much 19th century stuff in it, uh, are, uh, compelling in a lot of ways. And so my relationship to the Book of Mormon has shifted somewhat because it's still, you know, my father devoted the last years of his life to writing his book, Leap of Faith: Confronting the Origins of the Book of Mormon. And that really sort of, he frames it in a way that really resonates with me. With regard to the Book of Mormon not being a forgery or a fraud. At the same time, I'm now a whole lot more open to— I very much believe that Joseph Smith was an active participant and not a newsreader. That the idea that all he did was sort of read words off of stone and that he wasn't actively engaged in whatever that process was. I don't believe that at this point. So, yeah, if you look at the Book of Abraham, for instance, the church has had to retreat essentially to the position that though the papyrus was a catalyst for a revelation that has nothing to do with that papyrus. And so I'm not— and Ganesh, I'm going to want to talk to you about this as a further issue, but I still, I believe there were physical plates. I believe there was an Angel Moroni. I don't believe that whatever the Book of Mormon is is a sort of direct word-for-word translation of whatever was on those plates. I believe that it was a catalyst for an expanded revelation that allowed Joseph to kind of address the 19th-century theological issues. Uh, you know, that there's a long-standing scriptural tradition of midrash. I think that there is an element of midrash here. I don't know is the other thing, is that I'm not willing to sort of dogmatically try to defend any historicity position, and largely because at this point I don't much care. I think I am convicted by the power that the Book of Mormon has had in my life by the way the Book of Mormon has connected me with God, that it becomes less and less important for me to, um, to engage on those arguments. Because I have yet to meet anybody, pro or con, on the Book of Mormon whose relationship with the Book of Mormon is in any way dependent on chiasmus or Nahom or the kinds of historicity arguments that we get bogged down into. The people who believe the Book of Mormon and believe that it's a historical document, or at least it's rooted in history, which is, I think, different from— anyway, that's another rabbit hole. But I think the people who embrace the Book of Mormon as not being fraudulent— I'll just say that— will engage with all of these historicity arguments in ways that, uh, really don't reflect why they're engaging that way. I mean, they feel they have to defend the Book of Mormon, but if you back them up into a corner, they recognize that their faith in the Book of Mormon really doesn't have anything to do with that. I don't know of anybody that has ever joined the church because they went, oh my goodness, Nahom exists and it's mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and oh, I have to join the church. There isn't anybody whose faith is rooted in something like that. So I think even the staunchest believer, Ian, is where you are. You know, it's, I find the Book of Mormon inspiring. I find the Book of Mormon uplifting. I find the Book of Mormon connects me to God. And then when I'm challenged on that from a scientific basis, I scramble to find arguments to support it. But those arguments really are not in any way connected to my faith. But, uh, one of the biggest criticisms we get, Ganesh, is that when we have fascinating guests like you, sometimes we still talk too much. So, and I've talked about this a number of times on the podcast, so I very much want to hear your answer to Ian's question.

So I see myself as a Mormon, right? It's my culture. It's my tribe. I have huge amounts of, you know, buy into it. And like you, Ian, I want it to succeed. I genuinely believe it's beautiful and it's— and it can be incredibly good. Um, I will also recognize that it has created a bit— quite a bit of harm. And, and that's the same way I feel about the Book of Mormon. There are parts of the Book of Mormon I find incredible and inspiring. There are some parts of the Book of Mormon I see that create huge amounts of harm. The The, um, the skin color curse thing is massive for me. You know, I'm brown and, and that designates me as less than. And that's the nature of the text. It also erases a lot of indigenous people's actual history by providing a, uh, an idea that they are fallen Israelites when we can't find any DNA that linked them to that. So those things are incredibly problematic and have caused innumerable harm, which I think we need to be accountable for. There's also a— but there are also lovely things about the Book of Mormon that I find amazing, and I think that are worthy of investing in. And that's because I think it's really talking about Joseph. Right, his powerlessness, his poverty, his desire to save his family. Those are all big themes in the Book of Mormon. The idea of refugee narrative because people are hurt and are needing to, you know, find places of peace and safety. Those are big parts of the Book of Mormon that I think that we, we could be incredibly excited about sending to the world. So those are all really large issues that I'm invested in. But in terms of historicity, I don't think it's a, it's a, it's a history. I think it's an allegory, a pseudepigraphal work really based on Joseph's own life. And that's what the text of the Book of Mormon seems to, to show when I go through it topic by topic. Every single chapter of the Book of Mormon is represented in my book. As I talk about each of these topics. That are 19th century issues that are happening to 19th century audiences, and particularly to Joseph himself and his family. And so that's what I can see in the text and what I can document evidentially. So that's what I find.

Yeah, wonderful. I've compared the Book of Mosiah—

Does it say Atzebitching?

Oh yes, there's a, we have a bit of a quality issue, a technical issue quality there. I didn't get the last few words, but it does answer my question. Just going on from that, Ganesh, feeding on from that response you gave, I've compared the Book of Mormon to, or the imagination and the power and the genius behind the Book of Mormon. I mean, the character, I mean, I've, I've read the book many times and I read it so intensely, especially during a mission, that the characters were real to me. I was there when they were fighting. I was there when Aymeric and Alma was there. I was there with Cory Oran's Zia Zram, you know, Alma 11. I've read Alma 42 and the relationship between mercy and justice. And I was there when Christ came in 30 by 17, and I was there next to the 2,500 Nephites, the men, women, and children, the families. I, I was so immersed in it. I was there. The characters were real to me. And so the power of the Book of Mormon still remains strong and, um, uh, powerful, uh, for me. And I've compared the imagination behind the Book of Mormon inspiration to the Lord of the Rings, which was filmed in where you live in New Zealand. Can you do this? Backyard. Yeah, you are backyard. And my goodness, we, Jim Bennett and I would love to go there one day and do a tour of the Lord of the Rings. Anyway, can you make the connection between Joseph Smith and his charismatic, unmatched imagination and storytelling and his personal experience?, in regards to the creation of the Book of Mormon or its influence of the Book of Mormon, the characters and the stories in the Book of Mormon and the imagination behind that.

Yes.

To, to, uh, literary, uh, successors like Lord of the Rings. And that's not the only one. There's many other books out there which are incredibly, uh, powerful and imaginative by people who have written just similar, in my opinion, similar powerful storytelling to Joseph Smith. Can you make that connection then between Joseph and his creativity and his imagination and similar literacy books like Lord of the Rings? Is there a connection?

So when J.R.R. Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings, you know, he was really, he was making a commentary on his environment, right? He was really talking about World War I, the kinds of people, you know, you can look at the characters, particularly the different groups of people in the Tolkien series and see groups of people. You can see the Germans, you can see the Dutch, you can see the English. He's really utilizing real people in a fictional setting to tell, you know, Imagine, well, he's telling real stories. He's telling stories like, huh?

Good versus evil.

Good versus evil. Um, he, and he's, these characters that he developed, you know, were probably based on real people he knew. Um, they were based on himself. They were based on the ways that they were engaging with the war and how it affected various peoples. And how they rose to the occasion. These are, um, you know, he put it in a fictional world, but he was talking about real people and real events, feeling real emotions, and, uh, you know, real things. And this is exactly what the Book of Mormon is. The Book of Mormon is Joseph's life, you know. And you see this all the time. This is, you know, these are not, you know, Lehi and Sariah are Joseph Smith Sr. and Lucy Mack. Right? The brothers, particularly Sam, is Joseph's older brother, that benign supporter Hyrum. And his younger brother, Nephi's younger brother Jacob, is Samuel Smith, who is incredibly helpful to Joseph, who's the first missionary of the church. And Joseph is absolutely Nephi, He's trying to save his family. He is the, uh, the person that is the hero of the situation. And you can see Joseph as the hero in many of the characters of the Book of Mormon. He is, um, King Mosiah II. He is Alma, um, uh, you know, running away from the, the court of Noah, having a spiritual experience and converting to Christianity. He is Mormon, um, you know, who is carried away by his father to a distant land but returns to, to, to get the plates. He is Moroni. He, Joseph, is the hero of all of the Book of Mormon, all the Book of Mormon prophet heroes. But then you see the other characters. Hyrum is Sam, but he's also Limhi, the tributary king who's looking after the family farm as a tenant when the family gets evicted from their frame house. We see Joseph Smith Sr., of course, as Lehi, but we also see him as King Noah, who lost the family farm because of his treasure digging circumstances. We see Zenith as Alvin, the, the family hero who has built up the family farm. Um, we see Alvin also in the, uh, in the dying scenes of, of Lehi, where he's blessing his, his, um, children, just like Alvin did with his brothers and sisters, uh, when he was dying. So when we're talking about these characters in the Book of Mormon, we are talking about real people. Real people connected to Joseph and real events that happen in Joseph's life. Um, and he's utilizing them to tell this Christian adventure story, as with him as the hero, because he's the writer or creator. Because, um, he is telling a story of how he's saving his family, just like Mosiah saves you know, Limhi. He's got a place for him of refuge. Joseph in Harmony, Pennsylvania is preparing his home for his family to come in the latter months of, of 1920, sorry, of 1829. Joseph is moving a house onto his own house in Harmony with 8 extra bedrooms to furnish that for his, for his parents and his younger siblings to come and live with him. Now he's really working it. Saving his family, just like Mosiah sent out Ammon to, to find out about the people in Nephi-Lehi and save them and bring them back to Zarahemla. These, these huge amounts of correlation between Joseph's own physical life and the, the physicality of the Book of Mormon. You know, the land of Nephi-Lehi is Palmyra, Manchester. The land of Zarahemla is Harmony, Pennsylvania. Like, he is utilizing his world to tell a Christian adventure story. Um, and, and these are one-to-one mappings. You can see it. I think you can see Isaac Hale and his father-in-law with, with Ishmael in, in the, in the books of Nephi. Um, The ways in which Emma is separated from her father and has, you know, a real trouble with that, by when Ishmael dies and, you know, the daughters of Ishmael are bereft. Um, these, these are things that are, are real people with real events. They're coming up in the Book of Mormon in incredible ways. I think, I think Abinadi is modeled after, um, Isaac Hale, who was, you know, a staunch defender of Christianity and stood up to, um, to Joseph Smith Sr. during the money digging of 1825. And that Joseph was conflicted, as Alma was on the court of Noah, between, um, his father Joseph Smith Sr., who's a treasure digger, and Isaac Hale, who is a defender of Christianity and That dynamic of Alma having to choose between following Abinadi and writing down his words and, uh, and rejecting his father, um, and leaving, uh, Palmyra and the money diggers is very much the story of Alma retreating to the wilderness to, you know, baptize at the waters of Mormon. These are all things that are happening to Joseph, that have happened to Joseph and that he's utilizing as the basis for his story. And it feels incredibly real because he's talking about it with such passion because they're real events that have happened to him, and these are real people that he cares about, and they're in the dynamics of those relationships. So, um, yeah, and he's, he's talking about real issues in 19th century America— patriotism, you know, American exceptionalism, and their prominence, their loss, their genocide. You know, these— lots of the theologies of early 19th century American conflicts, they're being resolved in the Book of Mormon, and they're completely different by Nauvoo. You know, why doesn't the Book of Mormon have, you know, baptism for the dead in it? You know, because it's not a thing that comes up in Joseph's life till 1844. 40. Now we tell the story, it's in the— well, used to be in the preface of the Book of Mormon— that the, you know, God could arrange thousands of years of advance, in advance of the lost manuscript and its replacement text. But for some reason, the Book of Mormon can't tell us that things like celestial marriage are going to be really important. The Book of Mormon doesn't tell us about the polygamy is going to be the mainstay of the church in the future. It doesn't tell us that redemption for the dead is important. It doesn't tell us about, you know, how important the degrees of heaven are to the development of the church. So these are all things that are absent in the Book of Mormon because they are absent in Joseph's understanding of Christianity. You know, and that they develop by the time that he gets to Nauvoo and things are quite different. So it's not just that the Book of Mormon is a product of his own thoughts and feelings and understandings, but we can track that through his life and see that he changes on many core understandings and theologies that are baked into the Book of Mormon but become completely different by Nauvoo.

And yet the church— thank you— yet the church claims that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel. And mind—

well, that's what Joseph claimed at the time, right? That he was the friend.

So, um, go ahead.

Oh, I was just saying, and that was, that was the fullness to Joseph at that particular time as a 23-year-old when the Book of Mormon was dictated. These were things that were so important to Joseph in saving his family, both, you know, from their poverty, but also from their religious conflict. You know, the fact that Lucy and many of the children had joined the Presbyterians against the head of the house, Joseph Smith Senior, and his Universalism, that was a major schism that caused conflict. And even just the idea of, you know, conflict being of the devil. These are just the ways that a young man is feeling about the disturbance in his own family. Um, conflict goes on to be a big part of the church going forward. Um, but as a 22-year-old in Harmony, Pennsylvania in 1829, these are the issues that that he's feeling, and these are the ways that he's expressing them in the Book of Mormon. A, a more mature Joseph, who's now a leader of a church, who's got power and prestige and financing— he's a completely different person by Nauvoo, and he's acting in a completely different way. And many of them in stark contradiction, contradictions to the Book of Mormon, because he's a different person. His circumstance is completely different. Um, that's, that's why this is a biography, because you can see that everything revolves around Joseph. Um, you know, it's, it's around how he's feeling as a 23-year-old in the Book of Mormon. It's around how he's feeling as a father, protector, church leader, um, mayor, um, general. In Nauvoo, and, and, and this is the best way to explain what's going on and why.

Right.

I, I never understood to the extent that I do now, and I need to read your book and, and get a, a deeper appreciation of, of these points that you're making. But I never saw to this, to this extent, the, the life of Joseph Smith himself and the characters around him and the people in his life at the time who were clearly, uh, manifest in the Book of Mormon to this extent. I'm sure I speak for Jim Bennett, I could listen to you all day. I've learned so much. We're coming up to the end of our podcast here, Ganesh. This is an extraordinary conversation. Just a few items before we appoint, before we close off our conversation here. In the next few, just briefly, the next few minutes or so, could you give us some other highlights in respect to your book, if you will, please. And then we'll get some, any closing thoughts from, uh, from Jim, and then we'll, um, we'll conclude from there, if that's okay.

All right, well, highlights. I, um, one of the things that I've, I found really lovely, and, and that's been the feedback that has come. I, I, one particular person came and realized I was in Utah, came and found me, and, and just um, expressed how much, you know, some of the things that I've been doing and researching had just validated what was going on as he learned about church history. I think one of the things that happens is that church history quickly becomes so complex and so overwhelming that people feel, um, very disabled by it. Um, and so one of the things that I've I like about the book, or at least I hope the book is, that it just makes church history really available to people, um, and really easy to digest in bite-sized pieces that give you a great understanding, a The idea that we can get— sorry, that the book can provide some healing for people who are particularly finding things really tough when it comes to understanding the church and its place. I'm really concerned about that. I'm really concerned about those relationships that a change in belief causes for lots of people, mainly because that's happened to me, but also because I've got a lot of friends and family, people who I love, who love me, who are also in the church grappling with people leaving as well. So that's good. I think that, you know, there's a— one of the great things about the book that is fun is that you— that they're not all hard topics. Certainly there's some— I've got a topic on genocide, so that's quite hard, and white supremacy and patriarchy. These are really heavy subjects, but I also have some, some great topics on merriment and, you know, written versus oral transmission of language that are quite fun and interesting and things that maybe you haven't— that people have never thought about before. For in terms of how Joseph operated, but also how the church kind of came about. I think one of the fun chapters that maybe Steve Pateka really appreciated was the one on speaking in tongues, because that's a major part of the early church that gets, you know, basically jettisoned by Nauvoo. And so one of the kind of creative things that you can do is you look at you know, differences between particularly the Book of Mormon and Nauvoo, you can kind of make a little tally that some things from the Book of Mormon survived and are now still a part of the church. Some things transition to Nauvoo, and those are the things that survive. But the reasons why one thing survives over another, um, those are really interesting kind of dynamics and, and play to the, the ways in which carried out through with people like Brigham Young as he comes to Utah and the church is formed around there. But also other, the other aspects of Mormonism— the Whitmerites, the, the Strangites, the, um, the Brickites— you know, they take different parts of Joseph's life and, and those become important to them. And so those are really interesting ways that, that some factions of Mormonism are different from others depending on what part of Joseph's law they choose, or what part— whether they adhere to the Book of Mormon or to Nauvoo. So those are some fun, um, aspects of the, um, of the, the book that I think are are really just really interesting to delve into. And I've had a lot of fun talking on other podcasts about that.

Ganesh, thank you. Jim Bennett, your final thoughts?

Just thank you. Thank you so much. This is very helpful. This is very thoughtful. I think your book is a great addition to the conversation. And I think this is a conversation that everyone in the church needs to participate in. I think that the more we understand our origins, the more we understand Joseph Smith, uh, I think the better and richer our experience in and out of the church will be. Our experience with the church, uh, is, is better informed by more knowledge and more information, and you've done a great service. And contributed to that discussion in a great way. So thank you very much. And thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

Thank you. I really, you know, I enjoy the way that you engage in this and how, how unafraid you are to talk about tough subjects. And I appreciate, you know, throwing my weight in there as well with that same kind of feeling of, I want things to be great. I want things to be better. And I love, and I expect the church is going to be around a long time. So I want it to take account of some of its less than wonderful aspects, but also, you know, have something incredible to offer our next generations as they go forward.

Ganesh, you and Inside Out is the best podcast for you and your book. You know why? Because Jim Bennett and I on Inside Out, we want to walk that balance. We want the church to succeed. We see greatness in the church. We see issues with the church. We want to address the issues. We want the church to improve. And this is the ideal podcast, in my opinion, to have this conversation, because it sounds like that you want the same as well. Ganesh, it's been a real honor and a privilege to have you on. I also want to thank, another call out especially to Rebecca Bibliothek, who's the co-host from Arminish Podcast, without which we wouldn't have connected with you at this time for sure. Thank you for taking time to come on, folks. You have been listening to Ganesh Cherian, the author of the amazing book Joseph Smith: The Architect of Mormonism, a topical biography which was published this year. Ganesh, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation. We'd love to do another one, learn more. We could dive into this in great detail. Jim, as always, your insights are just extraordinary, but a special thank you to you both for this conversation. And again, to thank our listeners for being with us and being part of these very important conversations. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Ganesh.

Thank you, Ganesh. Happy end.

And happy to come back. Yeah, would love to.