Livestream Audio: A Positive Philosophy of Sex

I proclaim with all the power that is in me that the Inside Out Podcast is the only true and living podcast on the face of the whole earth, with which I, Bruce Reginald McConkie, am well pleased, speaking unto the podcast collectively as well as individually.

And welcome to Inside Out Live. I'm Ian. I'm in Canada. And Jim, where are you?

I am in an empty conference room in a luxury hotel in Brazil, São Paulo, Brazil. Wow.

You're about 5,000 miles that way.

Yeah, it's 11 PM here. So Uh, but we just got here yesterday, so it still feels like 7 PM my time.

But, and how long are you there for with the choir?

I am here until a week from today. No, from yesterday. We leave, we leave next Monday. So we're singing with the Tab Choir. Our first concert is tomorrow. And so we'll see what happens.

Well, uh, it's great to see you as always. Always enjoy doing these podcasts, these conversations with you. And we have a very special guest and someone that we've got to know really well, somebody that we, somebody that we have absolute love and respect for. And he is none other than the acclaimed scholar, author, and historian Greg Prince. Welcome, Greg.

Thank you. And I feel the weight of responsibility holding down the lower 48 alone without Jim's help.

Well, if it's any help, I'm underneath. I'm buttressing the lower 48 from where I am.

So it's turtles all the way down.

It's turtles all the way down. That's exactly right.

So the United States is a bit vulnerable with Jim Bennett being out the country. That's what I'm hearing.

Well, we've got, we've got comments about this. Uh, just very quickly, we didn't get to a lot of comments last time, but, uh, tough slate going tonight, going up against the State of the Union, says Clay Settle. And, uh, Guy McDude wondered what that means. And that's what it's just to get Jim riled up on a Tuesday night. Uh, Greg, I asked you if you wanted to watch the State of the Union and do you want to share your response with the public?

If they want to take up a collection and see if they can bribe me, but my price is very high. I don't think they can reach it.

There you go.

Yeah, we, I think we're as, uh, probably a bit perhaps more valuable and a bit more entertaining here. So, so Greg, it's great to see you as always. We have, uh, we just so appreciate you coming on and sharing your insights and your wisdom. Jim, as I said, it's always wonderful to have this, uh, this conversation with you. It's so much fun. And we hope our viewers will follow us and again, post your questions and we'll do our best to go through as many of the questions as we can.

Well, Colby, our old friend from last week, who was on last week, says, I wanted to thank Dr. Prince for his Thrive presentation. I didn't get a chance to say hello at Thrive, but really loved his perspective. When did you give a Thrive presentation, Craig?

I did it on Saturday evening in St. George to 700 people. It was a wonderful conference.

Wonderful. Uh, was, was, was Mike Foley the moderator there?

Yes.

Uh, he is one of my favorite people on planet Earth. He was just a dumb kid coming home from his mission, uh, when I was working down at Tuakon, and he worked in the box office and, uh, just discovered that he was a massive talent, and we used him in some of our radio ads.

Yeah, he knows how to find and motivate a ticklebone.

Yes, he is a very, very funny guy. In fact, we need to get him on, Ian, and he— he— I will send you some of his shorts. You will very much like his, his, his recent series about why I can't be bishop. Michael Foley? Yes, yes.

Jim, leave him at At least one pair so that he can wear them.

Leave him with one, one what?

One pair. You said you're gonna send him some of his shorts. Oh, see, I was trying to channel him and you didn't let me do it.

There you go. There you go.

That's my cue.

Work.

Great, Jim. Work with him.

I'm sorry.

Anyway, let's, uh, let's get into this because we have probably the most interesting topic that we probably ever, uh, covered on Inside Out, and certainly we've ever discussed with, uh, Greg Prince. Uh, so we've been spending quite a bit of time with you, Greg, uh, reviewing and discussing and, uh, debating, uh, the, uh, contents of what you have titled A Roadmap for Improving Mormonism. Now, Jim Bennett and I have had the, uh, the privilege of reading that and, and learning from that and sharing our thoughts and feelings about that. And I've always said that's one of the most important documents that the church leadership should fruitfully read and, uh, and consider and, uh, and, and implement. There's some very significant points and recommendations and insights in that, uh, roadmap. And we're coming to the end of it. We've probably got 2 or 3 more topics, but we've reached a very interesting section in the roadmap. And that section is titled A Positive Philosophy of Sex. And in that section, you say this, you try to define the problem in this way. You say the problem, a friend who spent her entire career as a professor at BYU told me, that's you, several years ago that the best information she had was that 60% of freshman women and 80% of freshman men had had premarital sex before enrolling at BYU. You go on to say in the roadmap that 100% of BYU students need an ecological endorsement. That attest to their chastity and then ecclesiastical. Ecclesiastical.

Yeah.

Ecclesiastical. Thank you, uh, for helping me on that. Uh, that attest to their chastity. And then you say in a question, who are we kidding? Um, can you explain that a little bit more? And can you, uh, provide some of your thoughts in respect to that context and that question?

Sure. Those numbers are easy to wrap your mind around. What you can't wrap your mind around is why the disparity. By the denial. I think related to this is a conversation I had several years ago with a classmate who had been a mission president just at the time— you will remember it— when they announced that they were raising the bar on missionary worthiness.

I remember that.

So he was back from his 3-year mission, and I said, what difference did that make? In your mission, and he held up his hand like this, saying, zero. He said, missionaries know how to lie, and they'll lie to their bishop, not think, not, or with the expectation their mission president's not going to send them home. And I think that that's only part of the problem. That's the cause, but the effects downstream are what concern me the most, that our not having a positive philosophy of sex gets some things bottled up, and when they finally come out, they do so in a way that can be self-destructive and destructive to others. And I sense that's where we're probably going in this discussion. It's not just a positive philosophy of sex, it's the downstream effect, including sexual abuse by church leaders, which is something we're all aware of, but continually is swept under the carpet.

Right, right. So the— that helps in terms of the context of this, uh, conversation, and you, both of you, you were, you know, you're raised in the church, you went through, you know, primary, youth. I joined when I was 16, but very, actually during the missionary discussions, I think it was the third discussion where the law of chastity was taught by the missionaries. And I was okay with that, although I grew up in quite a—

Third discussion, no, Giger. Was that Law of Chastity? Anyway, go ahead. Sorry.

I think it was the third. It might have been the fourth discussion, you know, back in the '80s. Anyway, I felt differently growing up. I thought differently than a lot of my friends. We lived in quite an interesting community. There was not growing up in the church. A lot of my friends were having sex before the idea of having sex before marriage. I mean, I'll wait until you got married. You have sex in the community I grew up was just laughable. They'd just think you're an idiot, right? So a lot of the kids were having sex, you know, 14, 15, 16 years old. When I got, heard the message about chastity, I thought that was wonderful because I didn't want to live that kind of lifestyle. And that was, that was unusual, I think, for the time and place that I grew up in. So when the Mishnahs taught about the law of chastity, it was something that I thought was incredibly valuable. And they also taught me that, uh, the church considers that sexual activity is sacred and reserved exclusively for marriage between, uh, specifically and exclusively a man and a woman. And the law of chastity requires strict abstinence before marriage and absolute fidelity within it. And sexual relations are considered a divine, procreative and bonding act meant for creating life and strengthening marital love. So they talked a lot about the law of chastity, its purpose, restrictions, what you can and what you can't do, preparation, you know, how we live our lives in terms of things we shouldn't do and, and, well, mostly we shouldn't do. There was very few, very rare conversations, me, from my experience, from the age of 16 in the church. Talking about the positive aspects of sex. I can't recall, aside from it being for procreation and someone telling me that you can have a spiritual experience during sex, which I found, uh, interesting and, and it was all very new to me. Most of the teachings and the doctrine and the conversations were all about what you couldn't do and what you shouldn't do. And the consequence, the very severe consequences that if you breached or broke or even bent any of the rules, that the penalty was, back in the '80s and '90s, was extremely severe. There was even a quote that was shared with me in a young men's lesson that it would be better to die than to lose one's chastity. I thought that was extreme, although I Accepted the principle of chastity and found it very positive in my life. And I, it was something that I welcomed, you know, it was something that felt right to me. The extreme teachings and some of the dogma I found quite disturbing. You know, growing up in the church from the age of 16 and the strict adherence to you know, not masturbating, not looking at pornography, etc., etc. This was before the internet, so it, it, uh, things changed of course when the internet came, you know, came on stream, etc. But when the bishop met with you, um, had the youth interviews, he would ask you if you had any problems with masturbation or, you know, any other, uh, issues to do with sexuality, you know, and even thinking about girls in a certain way, you know, was a sin. So it was drummed into me. I was, we were grilled at times by the bishop who was very strict about the dos and don'ts in terms of sex. There was also some odd, weird teachings that if you looked at pornography in any form, or if you masturbated, that you would become gay, which was absolutely bizarre. And so when we were preparing for this podcast, I asked Eugene about what's the scope of this conversation and what's the threshold for having the conversation. The reason why I share this with you, and I'm really keen to get Greg's thoughts here and yours as well, uh, Jim Bennett, is that I have an experience of the church teachings on sexuality, going from non-church youth into church, and then going into my mission and having to deal with that as a zone leader with certain missionaries, and a mission president having to deal that with certain missionaries on the mission, and then fast forward to when I was—

I want to interrupt you, Ian, just because our Are you saying that missionaries would like confess that they masturbated to you as a zone leader?

Yes.

Really?

Yes. There were two occasions. So the, the, the zone leader, the zone leader's job increasingly compared to a district leader and other traditional companionships is to look after the missionaries, right? He's over the zone and one of his primary mandates is to look after the missionaries, and there was a couple of missionaries that had that issue for sure. There were certainly friends of mine that have these difficulties before they went on a mission. Some were even told that they were not worthy to go on a mission because they had these issues, and they had to refrain from that activity for at least 3 months. I think one occasion it was 6 months before they would even be considered to serve a mission. There was even missionaries that came back home. Because they, uh, couldn't follow the rules. And there was a missionary that had to stand up in sacrament and didn't give specific reasons why they had to come home, but people became aware that that was the reason why this individual came home. So the guilt, the crushing guilt that these young people felt, the pressure to, to follow this very strict, uh, law, this very strict code. Keep, keeping in mind, uh, and we all know this, your hormones at this point in life, especially before emission, are raging, right? You're a young kid, you're attracted to someone, you fancy someone, and these are natural feelings. But I wasn't taught so much about that. I was taught 90% of what I was taught was the penalties and the consequences of breaching these, these rules. Very quickly, fast forward, when I served in these senior leadership callings, individuals would come to me and talk to me about all kinds of stuff to do with sex and sexual activity, a lot of which I didn't understand and frankly was unprepared for and felt completely overwhelmed. And had no training and felt completely inadequate trying to help people older than me on things that I had no knowledge or understanding. So I've kind of taken you through a bit of a whistle-stop tour, if you like, of some of the, you know, my experiences, my insights from youth, missionary, leadership. And so this section, I think, is absolutely in the roadmap, is absolutely critical to the church. Greg, to you, could you, in the context of your roadmap, could you respond to some of those items?

Yeah, let me seemingly diverge, but not much. The story is that a cab driver and a priest died on the same day and got to the gates of heaven. Saint Peter greets the taxi cab driver first and says, Here is a silk robe and a golden staff. Welcome to heaven. Well, the preacher is feeling pretty good at this point because after all, he's a preacher and this guy is a cabbie. So he approaches the gates and Saint Peter says, here's a wooden staff and a wool robe. Welcome to heaven. Whereupon the priest says, um, beg your pardon, but I think you got that backwards. I've spent my life in God's service, and yet here's what I got for it. St. Peter said, this is heaven, and we are results-oriented. When you preached, people slept. When they got into his cab, they prayed. And, and in a way, that frames what we're talking about here. I don't think any of us have any problem at all with the idea that chastity is the ideal goal. The problem is the gulf between that ideal and the reality. And that says, regardless of what the goal is and regardless of what the intentions are, we're not working it. It's not working. And so what do we do? Do we either trash the idea of chastity and say the status quo is here to stay, or do we reset and say, if we can teach a positive philosophy, then maybe there's a positive motivation instead of the negative motivation that all three of us were raised with.

Yeah.

You on mute, Jim Bennett?

Sorry about that. No, that makes an awful lot of sense. And I, you know, I'm looking at some of these comments. I want to bring some of these in the discussion. Um, uh, Clayton Settle asked, uh, I would like to ask about if missionaries are sent home from the NPC or prohibited from going on mission for speeding up the little factory. Being cheeky, but I also actually want the answer. And Ian, you answered that. For what was happening in the late 1980s. And my understanding is that that is no longer the case. Uh, and in fact, the, the whole Little Factory talk— Boyd K. Packer Little Factory talk— has been quietly shelved. If you go to the church's website, you can still find the video if you know exactly where to look. But if you go to the October 1976 General Conference where he actually gave that talk, It's as if Boyd K. Packer sat that conference out. The church has quietly retired the whole little factory approach, and the only reference to masturbation that you can find in the church handbook is one, one line saying it should not be the subject of church disciplinary counsel. Uh, I've had several bishops talk to me that they have received direct counsel that people are not to be denied any sort of— there should be no ecclesiastical sanction for masturbation. You shouldn't deny them a temple recommend. You shouldn't deny them going on a mission and all of that. But the thing is, that shift, for whatever it is, has never been announced or discussed And so there are still plenty of people and plenty of bishops, I think, that are more than happy to follow the Boyd K. Packer model. Yeah. Any insight on that, Greg, in terms of where the church is now?

Let, let me give you some historical perspective because this is another issue, as was birth control, where we have slowly backed out of a really bad policy. We're not yet at a really good one, but we're not where we used to be. I want to read you a brief entry in the diary of Abraham Cannon. He was in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles at the end of the 19th century. This is from January 4th, 1894. He says, the oldest son of J. Hyrum Grant of Bountiful, a bright, promising youth of 20 years, went violently insane on New Year's Day and will very likely have to go to the asylum. No reason can be assigned for this calamity unless it is the result of self-abuse. You know what that was a euphemism for.

Yes.

Which, which sent Oscar Young there a few days ago and is the cause of much insanity among people thus given to vice. So I guess we've made a little bit of progress. But that still doesn't get us to a positive philosophy.

Well, when you talk about a positive philosophy, I mean, I don't ever see the church just saying, "Oh, well, it's no big deal. Teenagers are just going to have sex anyway." Is that where you are hoping we land?

No, but I think there's got to be an acknowledgement of what the reality is, and then try to craft a positive message that can gradually trim those numbers. You're not going to get there in one step. But again, as Ian said, all of us were raised with don't, don't, don't, and if you do, we will punish you. That is not a positive philosophy. I, I, That's what we've got to get away from. Now, where do we go from there? I don't think it's to the extreme where we just throw open the doors and say anything goes.

Yeah, yeah.

Because there are good reasons for living a chaste life before marriage. I think one of the major contributors to marriage failures, to the high divorce rate, is the infidelity after marriage, which has got to relate to infidelity before marriage. It's, it's that kind of thing, realizing the problem, but addressing it not from saying, don't do this or we'll crunch you, but rather saying, do this because it is a better way of living, something like that. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yes, it does. Our experience informs our views and our insights. And I, you both have your own insights and experience, uh, from your life in the church. I have my own. When I was, and I just want to kind of paint a picture of reality here, uh, be interesting to see what you guys think of this. Growing up, in the youth and certainly the YSA, a lot of kids, my friends, were having sex. They shouldn't be having sex. They were told not to have sex. They were having sex. There were different forms of sex. Uh, there was conversations about, well, you can do this, but you can't go too far, or you can't do this. You've gotta be careful. There's certain people trying to bend the rules. And most of my friends were doing this, many of them, that's for sure. And so the, and then when they went to their bishop because they were crushed frankly with guilt and they, the prospect and the horror of the parents finding out or the bishop finding out or, you know, being not being able to take the sacrament. Just think about that, right? So your son, you know, you're there in the, in the, um, congregation, the, the bread and the water, uh, come to you and you're told by the bishop, uh, you can't take the sacrament. That's an absolutely ridiculous thing to do because people see people not taking the sacrament and they make a judgment. Uh, and they can see what's going on. The bishop can see that, others can see that, et cetera. Rumors fly and it can be absolutely destructive, not just on youth, but on people of all ages. And then, so that was happening. They told the bishop that they were observing the law of chastity. Many of my friends, or some of my friends at least, were not. Some of them went on a mission and had had sex just before they went on a mission. They had problems on their mission. Most of them stayed on the mission, somehow figured it out. Some came home, sadly. But on the mission, in our mission, Jim, as well, and certainly somebody that I know who's just returned from a mission, so recently, were racked, racked with guilt when they'd, uh, broken some of the mission rules. And was told that the reason why they didn't meet their baptism goal for that month was because of their unworthiness. And we were taught that, Jim, I was taught that by Tracey Dunn. Dunn, not Banks. I don't think Banks taught that. It wasn't like that. But Dunn, a mission president, said that any breach, even a thought, could jeopardize the Lord's work in Scotland, and that would likely result in the Lord not blessing the mission with the number, with the baptism. But also, as missionaries, it got worse because it wasn't just reaching the baptismal goal. It was you were putting people's salvation at risk because you weren't living the rules. And when you weren't living the rules, the Spirit wasn't with you, And when the Spirit wasn't with you, the Lord, uh, wouldn't allow— and I'm trying to quote it word for word here from the mission president— wouldn't allow his elect to be taught by a missionary that was unworthy because that person was, say, masturbating. That's the extreme that, uh, things can go to, which is absolutely crushing mentally. It's just destroying and it's terrifying, and the threat of going home in shame because you couldn't follow those rules or you just couldn't get, you know, you couldn't get a handle on it or you couldn't kind of figure it out and then going home with shame is absolutely awful. Now, you think that those experiences were assigned to the '80s and '90s and before that. A friend of mine just got back and that was his, that was his experience. I'm interested in having him come on the podcast. He's not ready yet. But that was his experience. So in the church, they don't talk about, uh, the positive aspects of sex. Uh, I can't remember a conversation having about the positive elements of sex. And that's why the roadmap, again, on this section, along with every other section of the roadmap, is so important to read and understand and for the leadership to address this. Yes, not open all the doors. I get that. But to have some grown-up adult conversation about and accepting that kids are going to have sex, young people are going to have sex. How do you have responsible sex? What about sex education in schools? What about taking some of the professional advice out there in, you know, with professionals, responsible people who talk about sex education and implementing positive constructive, uh, teachings and principles, um, and education on responsible sex. Not irresponsible sex, on responsible sex, and then consent, and on respect. Because you're not going to stop young people having sex. You just— it just— I mean, I can't think of a bigger challenge in the history of mankind to stop people having sex. They just won't You're not going to stop people having sex, right? So how do you have responsible sex? That's where the church should shift its resources into sex, sexual education, and delivered professionally with professionally trained people. Greg, what do you think about that?

Well, I can remember when there were bitter battles in Utah over whether there should be sex education classes in school. I don't know where that landed. My hunch is that they decided, no, that's the parent's responsibility. Um, good luck with that one. Going back on my own experience, I was born in 1948. Our sex education consisted of my father sitting down with my oldest of my two older brothers and kind of fumbling around and then handing him a book called Facts of Love and Life for Teenagers and leaving the room. And that was it. It was trickled down from there. That book got passed from one brother to the other. That's not the way it should be done. And I agree with you, Ian. It should be done in a professional way, ideally by professionals, because these are not easy issues to deal with. It's very difficult to have a whole group of prepubescent boys and girls and know how to reach them on the level that's most appropriate for them, because that'll vary not even by age, but by where you sit in the classroom. And you really need that level of professional expertise. I think one of the other things we see for lack of that positive philosophy of sex is that so many people, when they do get married, are not prepared and can have disastrous sexual encounters with their spouse because they're totally naive. And that's not good either.

Well, that, well, I mean, that point, I think we don't talk about nearly enough. Because, you know, when you're told your entire life that this is awful, this is dirty, this is a sin next to murder, how dare you, except now you're married, go at it.

Yes.

And you have absolutely no, well, okay, I don't really understand this. Uh, you know, it's, I'm not going to get any more specific than that other than to say, yeah, that is an issue. I want to get into some of these comments and questions. A guy, McDude, I don't know if he saw this, but he was a raised Bar Missionary. Clayton says, well, Joseph either surely broke the law of chastity or broke the new and everlasting covenant of marriage by divorce with Fanny Alger. So if the founder screws up, maybe we should get some grace. That's a whole other topic. I was gay before I ever saw porn, says Britty the Apostate. And I think more and more Even the church recognizes that that's true. Miracle of Forgiveness taught that any young man being called should be free of that practice before leaving. I may have the exact wording off a little. That is very, very close. It's from Miracle Forgiveness, Ian, that you get that idea that masturbation leads to homosexuality.

You do. And I'm glad you— real quick, and then I'll hand the time back over to you. But in Spencer Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness, which is— we were told to read that on the mission. You're not supposed to read it now. The church has quietly moved away from that. They don't talk about that. But Spencer W. Kimball says this: it is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost without a struggle. I find that absolutely strongly. You continue, Jim Bennett.

You—

well, I'm just going through comments just quick. Damic Dude, how can church create space for stories where members remain faithful despite ecclesiastical sexual abuses, yet only found their deepest healing outside the framework they were taught to trust? Greg, you have an answer to that one?

No, I don't have a good answer. It's a good question. It's a very good question, and it makes it more difficult, I think, for members to have a positive philosophy of sex when they are aware of the magnitude of sexual abuse in the church and how much of it is covered up. That just adds to the problem.

Yeah, it absolutely does. Um, at last she said it episode last week, 2023, at girls camp, a stake president brought a cake, spoke, and gave the licked cake lesson to the girls. Seems that the past is not as far behind us as we thought. That's from our friend Bruce Uh, and, and yeah, you know, the, the licked cake, the chewed gum. Uh, we got away from the chewed gum because Elizabeth Smart talked about that, uh, very publicly and talked about how she, you know, this, this is the, the object lust and where everybody, you have a piece of chewed gum and you want to pass it around. And if you have sex before marriage, you're chewed gum. Uh, and that, I mean, that, that is such an unhealthy philosophy simply because it doesn't allow for any sort of repentance. You know, you're chewed gum regardless of whether you repent or not. When the scriptures talk about that, Jesus and our Heavenly Father will remember our sins no more if we repent.

So yes, and if you buy into that idea that if you sin, all is lost, then maybe all is lost because you throw in the towel and say, why bother? That's about as bad as it gets.

I agree. This conversation has just reminded me about something, and I'll try to be as sensitive as I can. A individual, uh, when you're called as a leader in the church, apart from ecclesiastical, uh, got that word right this time, Jim Bennett, uh, and other training that you get as a priesthood leader, a whole bunch of training, right? No, there's no training for bishops or stake presidents on this stuff really in terms of dealing with adults, couples, youth, et cetera. There just isn't. The church has got these vast resources. In so many areas to bring people in, befriend them, call them, retain them, et cetera, et cetera. And then, uh, other areas which are so crucial to living a happy and fulfilling life, uh, positive, uh, sex is being one of them, a, a major, uh, component in, in, in one's life, uh, for lots of reasons that we, we won't go into necessarily, but we can do if you want to. A lot of the positive things that associated with, uh, you know, with sex in, in a healthy way, of course, that the church frankly fails to even attempt to address. The, the, the, the shame that the church doesn't provide those kind of resources to have to give training to people like me and others who have been in these callings, who feel completely overwhelmed and completely inadequate, and, and when you build up a relationship with trust, here's the problem, here's the dilemma. You be a good leader, you're honest, you try to be humble, you do your best you can, you care, you love your members. They then trust you, right? They trust you because you care for them. You know, this leader cares for me. I feel I can open up and share my thoughts and feelings with this leader. And then they do, and then the leader feels completely inadequate and has a other than prayer and reading the scriptures, has no professional training whatsoever. And the second thing I wanna share, uh, with a little bit of personal experience, um, um, and this, this absolutely, uh, just, just hit me so hard and I, I felt so, so inadequate., and so overwhelmed with a situation where an individual had plucked up the courage, frankly, uh, over months to come and talk to me about something that happened to them that was against their will. I, I, I won't use certain words, but they were who were sexually abused and they felt, and they were told by another leader that they were no longer virtuous. And we've talked a bit about that, Jim, way back on Inside Out when we talked about problematic scriptures. Do you remember that? It was the first episode we ever did.

Our very first episode. Yeah.

Yeah. And so there are individuals in the church who have experienced sexual abuse. They've been forced to have sex. They've been raped. And they feel an extraordinary sense of guilt. I cannot begin to imagine or understand. They're talking to somebody that is not trained to help them, that doesn't have the answers, is not equipped, doesn't have the skills. And they hear at times that they have lost their chastity and they're no longer virtuous. And this is absolutely crushing and devastating on the individuals. Can you imagine how you go through that experience, which I can't imagine what that's like, and then you learn that you're not worthy. Are you no longer virtuous? Are you no longer seen as, as pure? I can't think of anything more heinous, more destructive than that. Greg, could you try and speak to that in the context of this section in your roadmap? I know it's a difficult area, but these are the realities that are in the church.

Well, you're talking about the other end of this two-ended dilemma. The front end being we're not getting the results that we think we should get, and we need to change the philosophy in the hopes that we're getting a better outcome. The other is, okay, what happens when they cross that line and we don't do a good job? So often, uh, we have the hammer coming down rather than the The open hand coming out to help. I was in the first, in the bishopric of the First Singles Ward in Washington, D.C., which was formed in 1981. Our bishop was Sterling Colt, who was general counsel for the Marriott Corporation. As good a singles ward bishop as I can imagine. In the 3 years we were in that ward, At Bishopric, we had zero church court. We blessed 12 babies. You can do the arithmetic. And Sterling, in my opinion, got it right every time. There was not the guilt trip. There was the, the arm around the shoulder. There was genuine compassion, not saying, You are a sinner and we will punish you. It was just the opposite. And because of that, those women stayed in the church rather than being thrown out. That's more of the attitude and the result I think we have to have. Ian, does that address the question adequately?

It does, it does, and it gives me hope and encouragement that there are people in the church that are so wise and thoughtful and sensitive that they're able to create and generate those kind of results. You know, we're all children of God. We're all struggling with something in some way, right? We, you know, people struggle with self-esteem, self-worth. The church is, so much of it is guilt-driven in my view. And there's not enough of what you've just described. Now I'm thinking about that bishop that you're speaking about is an example of Christ. Christ would be like that. He would be open, kind, constructive. You know, look what he did with the, uh, what's that story, Jim, in the scriptures where they were throwing stones at the prostitute? Is that right?

Is that the woman caught in adultery?

Yeah. Caught in adultery, and what did Christ do in that situation?

Go and sin no more.

Go and sin no more.

Neither do I condemn these also.

Yes.

So there's the example right there. He didn't, you know, communicate in a way where it may crush people into guilt. He I mean, if someone speaks like that to you, they are going to bring out the best in you. You're going to want to do better because of the love. You're motivated by love, not by guilt. And I thought the church was motivated by love, not by guilt, but I think a lot of it is guilt. I'm going to go on a bit of a limb here and throw a spanner in the works. Do you know what a spanner is?

Uh, no, but I've heard the phrase a spanner in the works, so I know what that means.

It's a wrench. So here's my skepticism. Given what I've said earlier and all the resources that the church has access to and the intelligence that the church has access to, the vast resources around the addiction programs, and again, I repeat, very intel— run by very intelligent people. Does the church even want to address this? And if I go further, does the church— this is probably too far and you can push back on this— is this not an element of control over people? Is the church not doing these things, providing these support and these services because it either isn't interested, doesn't understand it, or doesn't even want to do it? I don't accept it's not interested. I don't accept that it doesn't have the resources. I don't accept that it doesn't understand or is intelligent enough to address the issues. I mean, for goodness sake, we're having this conversation right now live about these issues. Again, forgiven for being cynical rather, is the church deliberately not providing these resources to have these conversations on, positive conversations on sex and sexuality? Because it has, you know, it's an element of control because the church controls every aspect of your life. That side of your life is under strict control. There's a long list of what you can't do. You know, even married couples that come to the bishop and ask all kinds of questions, there's a lot of, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do that, you can't do that. Right? So why is the church not doing this? I don't accept, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't do it.

Can you?

Can you too?

Uh, one of the problems is that the church doesn't know how to change on anything. And this is a biggie, so it would be a big change. Another is, I don't think that the training of bishops and stake presidents is adequate to establish any kind of norm. You, you hear the reports that it's almost like the politicians choosing their voters. The sinner will choose the bishop, if there's a confession to be had at all, that's likely to give the mildest outcome There shouldn't be that variability. There should be the uniform standard, and it should be the standard of go and sin no more, neither do I condemn thee.

I think that's one of the most important points that I've heard ever, and certainly on any conversation like this. I think when I was the bishop, I disfellowshipped one person. That was it in all the time I served as a bishop. There's no way I was going to be that kind of bishop. And I heard, um, I'm not saying I was the greatest bishop at all, you know, I wasn't. I'm not saying at all that I was like that. But I do know that, that roulette leadership, as it's described, you know, the idea of going to a bishop that's kinder and more forgiving and, and, and being able to open up and trust and come away with the least consequence, not having to be disfellowshipped or excommunicated and the shame and destruction that that brings. And the idea of hanging on to sin and trauma because you can't talk to your bishop, because your bishop will condemn you or excommunicate you or disfellowship you or will do something to bring shame to you and you're hanging on to that. And you're carrying it every day like a big chain because you can't, you can't talk to anybody about it. And you go through, you know, the bishop gets changed and changed out and the next bishop is no different. You can't talk to him. And so people carry this. I had people carrying stuff for decades, 30, 40 years, and they'd carried this for so long and was so unhappy. And then, uh, when they open up, the joy and the tears, the being on the floor in my office, just absolutely relieved that they've got this off their chest. And those things that they shared with me, uh, I vowed, and I will never break this vow, I will take those things to my grave. Absolutely. They will die with me. As they should. But we should be able to speak to any bishop. You can't do that, Greg, Jim, unless they're trained. I don't know if you can train compassion, but at least the training, professional training would take them, guys, you've got to be compassionate and bring Christ into it for sure. But here's some professional training. We're desperate for training. As leaders in the church.

Let me intervene here. Several years ago, the Church History Department was asked to do some research and determine what was the rate of return of people who had been excommunicated. You can remember the euphemism Courts of Love. Yeah, they to assist you in the process of repentance. The percentage who ever returned to the church was 2%, and that's very telling that we're not doing this the right way. I agree.

Jim, do you want to go through some of the questions?

Sure. Um, yeah, I, I put up Guy McDude's— I put this up when you were talking about controlling, because I think that that's very much in line with what Guy McDude is saying. Christianity uses sexuality to break its adherence in an attempt to justify Christ's atonement. I am not sexually broken and never have been. This topic is the reason I will never again be a true believing member. Uh, Deanne Sanchez says, amen. Greg, please further describe the positive philosophy you would recommend, says Forever Pegster.

I guess that's my opening, huh?

Well, yeah, I mean, you've talked quite a bit about this, and I mean, this becomes the challenge In a lot of his—

when I was in that bishopric, I leaned on the bishop and said, we should have a sacrament meeting devoted to this very issue of a positive philosophy of sex. And he agreed, but then when it came time, he backed down, which I don't think maligns him. I think it speaks to the difficulty because we are so ingrained as a culture to have a negative philosophy, we don't even know how to begin. But I think a way to begin would be for teachers, for leaders at the local level and at the general level to start talking in positive terms. Not about punishment, not about sin, but saying, this is the way that leads you to greater happiness. That's why we're asking you to do it, not because we're going to hit you on the head if you step out of line. Something like that is at least a good start. But then I think you lean heavily on the professionals, the therapists, to come in and I think structure a curriculum that touches all the important points and does so in a positive way. That's the way I would handle it. I can't give you all the details because I don't know what they are, but I do know that there are people who know that, and they are the professionals, which doesn't mean the clergy. It means leaning on the expertise of those who are not in the clergy. Does that, does that at least start to address that question?

I think it does, and I think that we're getting better at recognizing expertise outside of the clergy on a lot of things. I think this is one area where we're really sort of hanging back, that, uh, the, the, the power of sexual shame is so extensive that I think that sort of giving up that tool to shame people into repentance is something that I think too many leaders are unwilling to do just because they enjoy The kind of power that that gives them.

Is that too something we haven't mentioned that at least in the United States didn't make our job any easier was Bill Clinton who insisted I did not have sex with that woman. Well, what is that message that's gonna be sent to the youth? Oh, okay. Well, if that isn't sex, then I'm fine. Well, Bill Clinton seems almost quaint in the era of Trump, but this accentuates the need for that positive philosophy, and when stories are told in church, rather than talking about the downfallen, talk about the redemption part of it. Don't dwell on falling away. It's coming back into the fold. It's, it's the prodigal son or daughter with the emphasis on the end of the story, not the beginning of it. Even those stories told in church, if they are told in a positive light of forgiveness, of compassion, of a positive outcome, that's part of a positive philosophy of sex.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There is a spirit in this conversation, gentlemen. I feel it. Um, and the best way of interpreting that spirit that I feel in this conversation, cuz it's such an important, uh, conversation to have and, um, it's so, so desperately needed. Um, if I ever needed to talk to somebody And, you know, I'm thinking of any, any time in my life, I would feel 100% comfortable coming to you two because I would feel loved, understood, accepted, not judged, helped, not shamed. And I would feel I could tell you anything and know it would be kept confidential. I would trust you. And that would mean absolutely everything to me and it would help me enormously. And everybody deserves to have that experience and not to carry all these, this trauma with them. And so when I was speaking earlier about my skepticism around, you know, why the church doesn't do enough, I'm encouraged in some ways disappointed to hear Jim Bennett kind of say the same thing because it is a controlling tool. There's definitely evidence to support that, Jim, for sure. I've seen it on the mission. I've seen it post-mission where this is used as a tool, a system of control. It's a very powerful element of control over the members. There's evidence to support that. I'm not saying it's widespread by any means, but again, I look to the church leaders who are very intelligent people. They know the answers. More than we do, as much as we do, if not more. And given all the resources they put into addiction programs like pornography and alcoholism and marriage counseling, significant resources which we all know exist, instead of dealing with the problems during or after the problem, why not talk about this at the earliest opportunity in, you know, in the church, like in the youth programs. So again, I'm not a professional, but when you go to school, at some point you get taught sex education. How old is it when they start getting taught sex education in schools? Is it 12, 13 now? Is it roughly 10?

Something like that. Brad Wilcox, former Young Men's president counselor,, actually goes into schools in Utah and teaches the maturation lecture.

Right. Okay. So in school, at some point, 10, 11, 12, whenever that is, I'm not sure what it is in Canada here, but, uh, I've forgotten what that was. Um, and in UK, they teach sex education. And so the church would do well to bring professionals in and teach the kids in the, in a gospel context. With kindness and love and the positive aspects that you so strongly speak to, Greg, in your roadmap. And then imagine that thinking, that experience, that spirit that one would feel being able to talk about these things in a very constructive environment and the impact it would have on your youth. I'm not saying it would you know, you're not going to stop people having sex. There's no point trying to stop that. It's going to happen, right? But having responsible, you know, sex and having a healthy conversation about that as youth, YSA, pre-mission, etc., you know, before you go to the temple, during the mission. Imagine all those years of having those kind of conversations that the document addresses, or at least speaks to those principles. And how that would impact a marriage relationship. Because you said earlier, Jim Bennett, there's not enough discussion, conversation on the issues within a marriage. I had easily more couples come to me with issues than I did youth. It was extraordinary. And all kinds of stuff that a lot of it I just didn't have answers to. And I'd call the stake president and and he sometimes didn't have answers to either. Um, but if we could start having those conversations early on in an appropriate time, in an appropriate way with, you know, this having this positive outlook on, on this, it would, it would make people a lot happier through their relationships in their youth, in the YSA, on the mission. And absolute intermarriage. And then those parents teach that to their kids and they put them through the same program. The answer is there. I just don't know why the church doesn't do it. It puzzles me.

Well, Clayton Settle says Packer had to die before the church would take the pamphlet off the website. Cowards. Guy McDude says, ironically, those missionaries that were being sexually deviant were the same missionaries that had the most baptismal success in my mission. I know, because I was called to babysit once they were caught. I am a public school district employee in Utah. Currently, the only approved sex ed curriculum is abstinence-based. So at the risk of leaping into politics here a little bit, but I know Greg, and I know we're coming up on an hour here, but this is, I think, kind of an important discussion. One of the things that has been really interesting to me since I left the Republican party and discovered that people are Republicans no matter what, because they, uh, when you talk to them and you get them to boil it down, they'll tell you, well, we don't like Trump, and we— I don't like this, that, and the other. It comes down to abortion, comes down to the idea that, okay, well, I have to vote for the pro-life candidate because abortion is too important an issue. And going along with Greg, what you've talked about with sex education, what I've since discovered is that criminalizing abortion and preventing abortion are two very different things and actually diametrically opposed. We have over 40 years of data of the global gag rule that every Republican since Reagan has instituted and every Democrat since Reagan has reversed. And what we discover when they institute this gag rule on non-governmental organizations overseas, uh, that they're denied all federal funding if they even mention abortion as an option. What happens is that the abortion rate goes up by 40% as a result, because you end up cutting all the things that prevent abortion, which is contraception, education, all of these things that we're talking about that are necessary for a positive philosophy of sex in the church. So when you only have an abstinence-based sex education plan, my guess is you're going to see, uh, more sex, because people who have questions about sex, who want to know and get answers, don't have any sort of safe space to discuss that. Don't feel any confidence approaching weird old white guys. Maybe it's not always a white guy, but it's always a guy. And if you're a young girl and you have to go and talk to a middle-aged man about, uh, about sex, I mean, we are making it as difficult as possible for these people to get any kind of counseling, any kind of support., that would create this sort of positive philosophy and actually prevent them from experimenting because they don't understand what they're doing. They don't understand what the consequences are and see all of that. So I hope that wasn't too far a diversion into politics, but I think the principle still holds. And I mean, Greg, you talked about, about birth control. You know, my parents, my father, when I was growing up, said that they were rebels because they planned all of their children except their first. My sister was born 9 months and 2 weeks after their wedding. But, but, uh, all the rest of us were spaced out and they used birth control and I grew up with that being very kind of scandalous back in the day. And it's not at all scandalous now, but, uh, does the whole changing ethos of birth control figure into this, Craig?

It does figure into it, but there's another thing besides Bill Clinton's attitudes that has worked against us and that has made this a generational issue, and that is just look at the media. Look at how sex is portrayed now versus how it was when we were kids. It was not permissible to say the word pregnant on television in the fifties. '60s.

Lucy was a slut when she was—

with cable TV, basically almost all the rules are off. So it's more difficult now that the kids are being raised in this environment where sexual promiscuity has been normalized, and they see it daily in the media. That just makes it a more difficult hill for us to climb, but it doesn't say that the fight is not worth fighting. There is a positive reason for sexual purity, for fidelity in marriage. It's just that we have not framed that in enough of a positive way that that becomes the attractant. And shame on us, because the stakes are so high, we should be able to figure that out.

Making some great points, gentlemen. Thank you, Deanne. Could the sin next to murder scripture be misinterpreted? That may be prostitution or sexual assault, not just fornication. Uh, the Book of Mormon's scripture that talks about that actually, I think, is wildly misinterpreted, because the punishment that, that Alma's upset about isn't just sex. It's that people would no longer believe on your words because of the example you were setting. And so you were damaging the entire work of the church. Know ye not, my son, that this is the most abominable of all sins? I mean, there's a greater element to that. And bishops that say that's the same thing as masturbating have just done so much psychological damage over the years. And it's, it infuriates me. I grew up in the '70s and '80s, was not allowed to talk about it at all, so when I got married, I was very unprepared. You weren't alone. Was 17 and pregnant in the church and was brought forward in front of young women's class. Was more— oh my goodness. It was more traumatic for my sisters than me. I somehow thought I was horrible and had to tell the girls how horrible I was. Oh, that's just awful. Clayton had argued it was the son deserting his mission, but yet they're being imperial and then causing people to leave the faith because it was a hypocrisy. Thanks for saving me there, Colby. Uh, also married a returned missionary, and I found myself really upset when he said that he had forgiven me. I said that was between me and God, and it took me a long time to have the confidence and believe it. Yeah. It really is a shame that they don't provide more support for young teenagers. It's statements like that, Ian, that is driven by the so-called sacred doctrine that completely fucks up these kids mentally. In itself is a form of abuse to these young girls. I'm just going to zip through these. I also approached more than I can count by several members of my ward who wanted to adopt my child. I wasn't putting my child up for adoption. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Literally, Scott, we did a whole episode on that. Ian, you remember that?

There we did. I, I, it's hard to come across any disgusting quote by any so-called, uh, example of Christ. I, I, that I found deeply offensive. That's just an awful thing to say. Just, just look at that. It's just disgusting.

I don't know. Far too awful. Sorry. They would be shunned out of sight. The sexual sin next to murder in mill factory philosophy had 13-year-old me thinking I was going to hell unless I confessed to my neighbor bishop. How is that helpful or healthy? It isn't. I believe this is still leadership roulette. Absolutely. If every bishop was like Ian, lives would have been saved, mental health improved. It's like he's like the Captain Moroni of sex, Ian. People would feel the meaning of the Atonement. Ian is love-based, not fear-based. 100%, Bruce. If I have sins to confess, I'm calling Ian. Because no one talks about it. You look around and feel everyone has it figured out and is obedient. You think you are the only one that is broken. Boy, there's so much truth in that. I mean, the shame about masturbation, uh, I mean, I've talked about this and I talked about how John Huntsman Sr. was the guy that really screwed me up later. But, uh, I did not even know what it was when I read The Little Factory, and I didn't have anybody to ask. I didn't know any way to reach out, anything that wasn't just morbidly embarrassing. There are no resources out there within the church to deal with that. Normalize positive sexual vocabulary, step one. Ultimately, God is the one who forgives sins. Wouldn't it make sense to go directly to him with repentance? It would. The sexual same scenario is so common. Across all the Abrahamic religions. It makes you realize just how misogynistic religion was designed by man to be. Saw elders go home for my mission. I'm assuming for this very reason. Mission. Yes. Amen. In. I didn't understand basic sexual principles around sex until after 13 years of marriage and leaving the faith. It's too taboo. Yes. My ex-wife was raised Catholic. The issues around sexuality eventually destroyed the relationship. I can empathize with those that have had this happen inside Mormon relationships. So true. Jim Bennett. Thanks, Deanna. I don't know what I said. Uh, church has a history of not trusting mental health professionals. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Boy, K. Packer. His name keeps coming up when we talk about unhealthy, uh, ideas about sex. Hashtag damage. So that is all the comments, gentlemen. I tried to plow through them as much as possible.

So, Jamie, you did an absolutely fabulous job. You know, when you get these callings of responsibility and they're very serious callings. The stake president once said to me, Ian, he said, you'd be amazed how much control the stake president has over the members. And it's, they really, you know, wield enormous control at the stake level. A lot of stuff that happens is at the stake level, as you know. But when you're in these callings, surely the goal, the objective, the The commitment is to help someone coming into your office, is to help them feel better and good about themselves before they leave. Isn't that the goal? You know, to listen, to be compassionate, to understand as best as you can, and to leave them feeling stronger and better and more hopeful and worth something. Did we do a podcast on 'You are enough, Jim.' Do you remember that?

I do.

Isn't that the essence of Christ? Isn't that the very core of what Christ taught? Is that, you know, you're good enough. You are good enough. You are loved. You're accepted. Christ will help you become better through love. And the church, I find, from my experience, It's the weight is mostly on the guilt. Look at everything the church has asked you to do. Someone at some point in your life, Greg and Jim Bennett in your life, has told you to do something and there's been some kind of guilt thing associated with it, right? You know, on a mission, home teaching, you know, something where there's some guilt driven, right? Let's get away from the guilt. Let's focus on love and bringing out the best in people and loving people and accepting them and not judging. And then people will feel happier. I mean, surely that's the goal, is to help people feel happy and loved. Isn't that the goal?

Yeah.

Ian, you are English. I knew a gentleman who was in the stake presidency in England. His name was Bill Bates, later moved to the States. He told me that when he was stake president, a General Authority demanded that he excommunicate so-and-so, and he stood his ground and refused to do it. Yeah. And he said to me then The Savior said, feed my sheep, not kill my sheep. And I think that is the basis of anything moving forward that's going to move the needle in a positive direction, is for the leaders at the local level to understand fully the injunction that they be good shepherds and not go out and kill their flock.

Yeah, yeah, that I applaud that individual for having the integrity. You know, we get this life once, right? And we're with people professionally, personally, family, you know, friends. The goal is to uplift. The goal is to build. The goal is to love. And the goal is to help people feel good about themselves and to feel better. And when you get these callings, that's a sacred responsibility that you carry because these members trust you as a leader. They trust you. You get told that you're called of God, right? When President Oaks set us apart and actually introduced us as a stake presidency, he told the entire stake conference, our presidency was called of God. And God told Oaks to call us, right? That serious, you know, as a faith-believing member, committed member, you take that seriously. So you accept or you believe that the bishop or the leader is going to behave in the right way, going to do the right things, and going— he's got your best interests at heart and absolutely loves you. And the reality is that's just not the case. So can you compensate with love and compassion for lack of skills? To an extent, within limits. Probably big limits. But imagine how powerful the bishop would be with those natural qualities and the training, you know. And these bishops that you're talking about, um, that we've met there, Greg, and you've met some of them as well, Jim, they are— I think we need more of them. I don't know if they're few and far between, but we certainly need more of them. This roulette thing has got to stop. Anyway, we are pretty much out of time here. This has been perhaps the most significant, important conversation we've had on Inside Out, probably. Uh, people can comment on that. It's certainly one of the most interesting, significant conversations we've had with Gregg Prince, who we're grateful to be with us this evening. Uh, before we close, uh, Jim Bennett, any final comments? And we'll leave the last minute over or two over to Gregg.

Uh, very much enjoyed being— very much enjoyed your experiences and your honesty and integrity in sharing those experiences. And Greg, your insights are always just unbelievably helpful. I'm very, very grateful to be here with you both.

Thank you, Jim. Greg, any final comments, thoughts from you?

There should be severe limits to one's judgment and no limits to one's compassion.

Amen.

Amen. Well, we will end on that. I want to thank you both again. I want to give a special thank you to all of our viewers and our listeners for being with us. I hope you found this educational and uplifting. We extend our love and appreciation to you. It's been an interesting and at times probably difficult conversation, generating all kinds of thoughts and feelings, but know that you're loved, know that you are enough, And on behalf of Jim and Greg, we extend our love and appreciation to you, and thank you for taking time to be with us this evening. Jim, thank you. Greg, thank you.

Thank you, Craig.

Good night.