Mission Resonance

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out, and I am here as always with my partner in crime, Mr. Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I'm doing very well today, Jim. How are you today?

I'm doing just fine. Doing just fine. So as we look at this, we have done two episodes where we've talked about our missions. We've also done an episode early on when you were telling your story where you've talked about your mission. And I— there's an awful lot of meat there. There's an awful lot of, of, of stories and wonderful experiences. But I wanted to do just one final episode where we, we talk about our missions and sort of put it in the broader context of our lives to some degree. You know, we're 35 years removed now from all of the events, more or less. I mean, it's 35 years since 1988. So I went out in '87, you went out in '87, early '87. So it's 36 to 34 years But yet the mission still has resonance in our lives now. You know, I'm a 55-year-old man with 5 grown children. It's been a little hard. My, my youngest son just went off to the University of Utah, and I'm now an empty nester. You know, we had everybody living here for the summer, so I knew this was coming. But my, I had 3 of my kids living here this summer and, you know, all these people that are dreaming of the idea of being an empty nester, all of a sudden the kids are gone. They've got lives of their own. And it's, it's just been very strange. Uh, there's some good parts about it, but I miss my kids. I miss having them around. And, you know, I'm an adult with all kinds of different interests and different priorities and different things going on in my life. And yet still that mission experience is still so resonant and still so powerful and front and center in many ways with how I live my life. I mean, I really look at that as the moment when I transitioned from being a kid to being a man. No, I remember growing up listening to homecoming talks of missionaries, of people that I knew before they'd left. And they come and they give these really compelling talks when they'd return. And I thought, whatever it was that happened to you out there, it was good. It did something good to you. And I kind of want that in my life. I want to be able to have that. But I always sort of assumed— I didn't realize the price you pay for that. I didn't realize just how difficult and how much pain and how much struggle there is to get from here to there. And maybe that's why it still remains resonant for me. And I mean, you're no longer in the church, but is your mission still got that kind of resonance in your life?

It, it does.

It does.

And, uh, the say, the, the experience has never left me. I think about it a lot. It shaped my life in very profound ways. You know, my background is, is, is, um, I was taught by the missionaries, so I, I came in through the missionary effort, served in mini mission for a few weeks. That was again another wonderful experience, notwithstanding the difficulty and the challenges associated with, you know, the level of effort to try to get people interested and invite them to be interested to the church. That was always a challenge. And so the whole experience for me, I'd say 98%, 95% was incredibly beneficial, successful, and very wholesome. New relationships, extraordinary relationships. I remember being, you know, I was trained in Dumfries Ward in the early months of '87 and got very close to the members, really close to the members, had limited success, worked tirelessly with the members to try and generate referrals. And I remember I was there, I think, for 3 months, and then I was transferred to Dunfermline, and I went round to some of the members that I was close to, quite a few of the members. I just got extremely close to them and loved them dearly. And I said I was going, and I was just in tears, uh, actually at some of these, um, you know, some of these farewells. And I gave my farewells, like, they gave me, let me do a farewell talk. And I was so, um, in love with the ward and the members. I remember waking up early hours, um, very early, 4:30, got ready, and we're driving, um, from Dumfries to Edinburgh. And the sun was coming up over the— what they call it— Devil's Beef Tub. It's, um, one of the hills, um, uh, near the hills in the Borders there, going from Dumfries to Edinburgh. The sun was coming up, and I stopped and took a photograph. And I was quite emotional. And Dumfries was behind me, and Fermline, a place I had no knowledge of whatsoever, I was going to meet with— going to be with Elder Jacobs. We were being whitewashed, which is the two missionaries that were there, Elder Spencer, Elder Blazard, were there before us, I think, and they were moved out together to another area, reassigned. And Jacobs and I, who I had great things about Jacobs, and he and I— he was my senior companion— he and I were parachuted or installed into the Dufermly Ward.

I think is the term.

Whitewashed. Yes. Is that the term you use?

Yeah.

Whitewashed.

Like, so they've removed the two missionaries that were there. You put in two new missionaries that are new missionaries.

Yeah. Which is the term. So brand new and new company ship, new area. And I just, it just pulled on my heartstrings to leave them, priest. I just was so close to them and didn't think I would ever have that experience again. The whole mission was a brand new thing for me. So I got very, very very close to, um, members. And then went to Dunfermline and had a whole other similar experience that I did in, in Dumfries. Got very, very close to the members in Dunfermline. The bishop there, and I, you know, I do want to mention his name, um, Jackie Watson. He, in, in my life, you know, he asked me a question about does my mission still resonate with me, and it does. Frequently, often, sometimes daily, I think about certain aspects of the mission. And I think back at some of the people I met in those 2 years in Scotland, and there's a few that stand out that have left a, um, you know, indelible impression or profound impact on my life. And one of them was Jackie Watson, Bishop Jackie Watson. He was the bishop when we arrived in Dunfermline, and he was the most extraordinary individual, Jim. He was, I think, I think he'd been serving for 9 or 10 years, which is extraordinary in terms of the length of, you know, serving as a bishop. But he was a very humble man. He came from a humble background. He wasn't rich financially at all. I think he was living on a council estate in Dunfermline, and he was extremely humble. And one of the most kindest spiritual individuals I've met at the time and I've ever met in my entire life. And he had such an impact on Ella Jacobsen, right? He served tirelessly, devoted, dedicated his entire life. I attended his funeral, actually. I got very close to him and it was like a prison banks relationship and I loved him daily. And at his funeral, I traveled up from England at the time and we went to the Dunfermline Ward. There wasn't— it was absolutely jam-packed, the whole building, and there were people trying to get in from outside. There was barely any standing room at that man's funeral. Literally, it was shoulder to shoulder. It impacted and blessed the lives of so many. And I was one of the few that I was privileged to know Bishop Watson, and his qualities were just extraordinary. He just loved people. He was such a great leader, and he just— you felt that you— that he motivated you through love. And he was the epitome of what a real, uh, leader, a bishop, should be. When I was called as bishop, I, um, tried to emulate, you know, that kind of behavior and and didn't come anywhere close to Jackie Watson. He was such a natural, gifted leader and a very humble man. And so, you know, I went to the firm and had some extraordinary experiences with members. You know, we— I remember one time there was— we were teaching an individual. I remember his name, but I'll leave his name out. I do remember quite well. Elder Jacobs and I were teaching him. We'd had a couple of discussions.. And then this, uh, anti-Mormon tract pamphlet dropped through this individual's door. And, uh, this person had read it and we got to, we had an appointment, the third, third discussion, and we arrived and this individual said they'd been, um, this had dropped through the letterbox and this anti-Mormon or this negative comments about the church. And they were, I remember reading it, I've got it somewhere, I should pull it out. It was a pamphlet that was organized by a group of churches actually around Edna Ferblin. I think the title was The Mormons Are Coming. And then it talked about some of the, what we now accept to be doctrine of the church. It had some anti-Mormon statements like Joseph Smith's polyandry, polygamy. There was polygamists. It talked, I remember it talked about the stone in the hat, which we shared. This individual shared the pamphlet with us. We read this, we thought this is absurd. We said to the individual that, you know, this is anti-Mormon. And this is a sign, we said, that Satan is trying to stop you from joining the church. And he knows that you know it's true. We'd had a prayer experience with him, Jim, I think on the second discussion where we knelt. And this individual felt a burning in his bosom, in his heart. Right in front of Elder Jacobs and I, it was a very real experience for him and for Elder Jacobs and I. That was a very personal experience for me. And I think for Elder Jacobs as well, on, on the floor of that individual's flat. And so, very physical experience as well for this individual. And then on the, again, on the third meeting, they'd it had this pamphlet posted in the letterbox, and we said it was a sign that we're doing the right things, we're on the right track. And so we continued to teach this individual, convinced that they would join, and we were so confident that things were going well, we built up the— we had a date set for baptism. Bishop Watson was very involved, very supportive, as he always was. We filled up the font, we had a few members together, we had some food organized, and it broke our heart when this individual didn't show. And what happened is that this individual's family, his girlfriend, and some of the people belonging to the other religions, I think, in the area had approached him and said, 'You need to think twice about joining the Mormon Church because of these issues.' So This individual never showed. And there we were, you know, with a forum that was ready and the food there and the members were there. And we were— that was— I found that, that experience very, very difficult. And so, to your question, I think about each area that I served. So Dumfries, Dunfermline, Aberdeen, where I served with Elder Casper, who was an extraordinary individual. And I spent some time together up there. And then I came down to Edinburgh, then I went to Stranraer, was the branch president in Stranraer. I was there for 6, 7, 8 months. That was again another—

You were in Stranraer for 8 months?

7, I think, 7 months.

7 months.

So that's my long time. And then went to Inverness for a few months in my last area and got close to the members. I think a couple of things. I think to your question, I think about my mission and how it shaped me and informed me from leadership, from confidence, from relationships, from dealing with adversity, dealing with rejection. You know, Scotland is pretty tough mission compared to some and probably easier compared to others, but it was a tough time, a tough experience to get through, and it either broke you or shaped you or made you, you know, turned you from a boy into a man. And the second thought I have about the mission is the issues, you know, in terms of the culture of the church in Scotland, the leadership, the relationships with the leaders, the doctrine, the policies at the time. And you look back and you see that we accepted without question those doctrines and those policies, and we taught with complete obedience, literally with exactness, as President Dunn, President Banks teach. And now I look back at those, um, efforts, those policies, those principles of doctrine and history, and boy, has it changed so much. For me, the church has changed significantly, in some ways for the better, in other ways, uh, not so much. And back then, because we didn't have access to the internet, we just accepted that whatever the church said We just accepted that the church's position was always correct. I remember getting on a bus with all the Jacobs in Dunfermline, and I remember this very distinctly. There's an individual on the back of the bus who started talking to us and actually challenging us on some of the doctrines of the church and some of the claims that this person was saying that they were making. Teaching false things and making false claims. Again, it just with polygamy. There's a few other items about, I think, different— if I remember correctly, I think there was some another version of the First Vision that was completely new. Elder Jacobs and I were on the back of the bus. I think it was Jacobs and I. And this conversation started to happen. This person was asking us questions and why you're teaching all this false information.. And we just dismissed it completely. We just accepted completely every narrative, every position, every policy principle of the church, and completely blindly. And anything that deviated or was different from the official narrative, we, we said was Satan, anti-Mormon. And we dismissed it without question. Dill-Firmlyn, by the way, was one of the wards where there was a school opposite the building, and the Godmakers, the people who, some of the people from the other faiths and religions had organized a meeting directly opposite the church to show the Godmakers movie. And I think one time, some of those people came into the Dunfermline Chapel on a Sunday, and there was a bit of a confrontation, I think, at the foyer, or just outside the building, between people who were attending the Godmakers video that was happening in the school or in this building opposite the Furlong Chapel. And some of these people came across and started challenging some of the members, I think, in the car park. And that's— I remember that was an interesting experience. So, you know, on the mission, you know, you deal with everything, you know, issues, policies, members. And when I was a branch president in Strand Road, the confessions and the issues that members are dealing with were way beyond my capability of, of responding to and dealing with. You had, you know, you, you, you laughed with people and members and investigators, you cried with them. Uh, there were successes, not many. Uh, there was many times where people would just would walk away from something that we, we couldn't understand why they walk away from the truth. I think the mission, um, takes you through almost every experience in such a short time, you know, in the church leadership, doctrine, policy, structure, rules, regulations, uh, different leadership styles, members with, with, um, all kinds of challenges and, um, every aspect of church life. I think you have this crash course, um, experience in, um, you know, going through 2 years of the mission. And so it, it, it's always with me. I, I grateful. Would I do it going back right now when I do it again? I, if I was in the church and I, um, had the choice of doing a mission, I would be more focused on community service. And that's an area I think the church needs to do better at, is where I would want to be involved in physically working with other faiths, religions, charities, on good cause events, contributing in meaningful ways rather than trying to proselytize and bring them into the church, helping events, you know, fundraising, real charity stuff, and using the resources of the mission to get involved in more community-type work. I would do that because I think that's powerful and it's quite universal. Instead of the, the mandate that I understood was to proselyte and to baptize, just baptize, teach effectively, baptize, retain them and get them to temple recommend, get them to the temple. You and I were always taught that, you know, the goal is to get them in and then the member's job is to get them to the temple and to get them to the temple. It's, it's tithing and all these other commitments and callings, etc.. But the focus was baptize them. All those numbers were measured. I felt at times that I was a salesman. You know, I remember the questionnaire program that we did. Oh yeah. And remember, we as a zone in the Inverness zone, when we achieved that target, I think we came number one in the mission one month. It was only one time we did that and we were allowed to go down to the mission home and we had pizza and we watched a movie.

I remember that.

Yes.

That wasn't that zone. I remember it was some zone. We watched The Robe.

We did. We watched The Robe. So it was a religious movie. Uh, I think we had—

no, no, no, no. We watched— we don't— I watched The Robe my first Christmas. That was one of the approved movies. The movie we saw down there was Ben-Hur at the museum.

Okay. I know there's a religious component to it, but I felt, um, I mean, Prison Break was extraordinary, but I felt I was, uh, everything was being measured and the baptism would've been measured. And I felt a little bit of a, Uh, it was almost like a— it turned into like a, a business thing, like a, like a sales, uh, you know, you know, measuring the baptisms and, and, um, and, you know, the mission— the, the zone that did the most was the, you know, the winner, um, you know, like an ACME sales event. And so I, I, I didn't, I didn't like that, to be honest. So, but every aspect of my life right now you know, business, personally, family, how I feel about myself, my confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, structure, my beliefs. Every aspect has been shaped or influenced in some way, profoundly, perhaps a little bit in certain areas by my mission. I've got in my office here, I've got quotes. I've got my big wooden board with all the areas I served in. I've got a couple of scriptures around And so I've got quite a lot of mission material around me and got my scriptures that I, you know, I don't read, but they're still important to me. And they've got a lot of personal missionary, my journals, and they're important to me because they shaped me and they helped me become who I am. And overall, it's been a positive experience mostly. So anyway, that's a long answer to your question.

No, it's a good answer to the question. And it's, it, it really sort of rings true with my experience. It's interesting that you've got your, all that stuff still on your walls. I've got a box up in my attic that has all of my mission paraphernalia, including the pamphlet that shows where Noah's Ark is and how the UPC code is the mark of the devil. And a few other things. I mean, I've collected all that kind of stuff. You mentioned your missionary journal, and it's really interesting because I've gone back and reread my missionary journal. I was a very conscientious journal keeper. I wrote in my journal every day, a full page at least, sometimes more. But I find now my journal is kind of useless because what I felt was important at the time was to sort of give my emotional weather report. Today I felt terrible. I felt, I didn't feel worthy. I felt lousy. I felt, so I'm reading about how I feel and usually it's negative. And then every once in a while it's, oh, this is great. I had a great day. I felt great. And I go, okay, but Jim, what happened? What, what's— I mean, the— I have to sort of sift through all that sort of teenage dreck to try to get to the core of what actually happened and the memories. And I'm very frustrated with myself that I didn't realize just how precious it would be to have— but even if I had just put the real weather report, you know, today it rained. Well, I guess that's every day in Scotland. But you know, just, you know, those, those are the kinds of details that I kind of left out. And I look back at my mission as to what's important and what matters. And so little of that was captured in my journal that it's sort of surprising to me. I want to come back to what you were talking about with regard to Jackie Watson. Because at this point in my faith journey, at this point in my life and my relationship with the church, uh, the issues, you know, the historical issues, the CES Letter issues, if you will, you know, uh, the Godmakers issues, the kinds of things that showed up in weird little pamphlets like The Mormons Are Coming They just don't matter to me at all. Any frustrations I have with the church and any kind of problems I have with the church, they have little to do with Brigham Young or Joseph Smith or polygamy or whatever. You go down the laundry list. My relationship with the church now, and to some degree this was established on my mission. It's about, is the church making me a better person or is it making me a worse person? And the thing that I saw in Scotland firsthand, I mean, I saw it before my mission, right? I've told the story about this girl that I was dating, uh, that I was able to baptize. And I saw the church markedly improve her life. And that was enough to sort of say to me, okay, going on a mission to help people improve their lives, this is a good thing. This is a good use of my time. This is a good use of my life. And I saw that in Scotland over and over and over again. I saw the church transform people. I, and I saw the goodness of the members of the church. And there's something about being in Scotland as opposed to being in Sandy, Utah, where everybody's a member of the church. You know, I grew up in Southern California, and being a member of the church in Southern California was sort of this, this cool badge of honor to me. I don't know if anybody else saw it as cool, but it was me against the world. It was— and you'd go to church on Sunday and these were all the other warriors that were trying to stand up and be good in a world that was constantly trying to tear them down. And the older I get, the less patience I have with that model. The idea that the world is evil and that the church is all good is, I think, makes people worse in the church. It makes us, it gives us this false sense of superiority. It makes us prideful. It messes things up. The us against the world dynamic is something that the brethren try to reinforce every conference. You know, be in the world but not of the world. You know, the opposition that is after you, the same kind of thing that you were telling these investigators that This is opposition. This is Satan coming after you. The older I get, the less that resonates with me at all. It just, it cuts us off from good people outside the church. It makes us suspicious of goodness outside the church and saying, oh gosh, well, yes, this person seems like a really good person, but then why haven't they joined the church? And why? I mean, I just don't have any use for any of that. But I do have a use for the kind of powerful community and the kind of powerful goodness and service that I saw in action up close in Scotland in a way that I hadn't ever seen growing up in the church. Although, I mean, there were plenty of opportunities to serve, there were plenty of good people who were serving, but that was just kind of life, you know, that was just— these were, these were my neighbors, these were my friends, and this is just kind of how we live our lives. And I didn't see anything unique or powerful about it. And in Scotland, I was able to see just how unique and powerful that can be, uh, in the lives of people like Jackie Watson. The person I'm thinking of now— I mean, after, in the last podcast, I talked about my time in Thurso. After Thurso, I got, I had an interview with President Banks and he said, "We're transferring you to Mulgai." And I had no idea where Mulgai was and I'd never heard of anybody serving in Mulgai. And I said, "Well, where is Mulgai?" And he said, "It's right next to Drum Chapel." And I was like, oh, so in other words, you're transferring me to Drum Chapel. And I had definitely heard of Drum Chapel, the Drum as they called it. It was an area that every missionary was kind of scared of. I mean, you'd heard of Drum Chapel, hadn't you?

I prayed, I prayed I wouldn't get sent to Drum Chapel.

You'd never get sent to Drum Chapel. And here I am, you're going to Mulgai. And it's like, come on, President, you're sending me to the Drum. Just say it. Just open up. You know, it was in Trump Chapel where I saw cars burning on the street. It's where I saw sweetie vans selling drugs to people. You know, it was part of our area was Easter House. And we were told, don't ever— not only don't tract in Easter House, don't walk in Easter House.

Yeah, I wasn't good enough to go to such areas. I I never got to those areas, and I think it's a certain caliber of missionary that you have to get. So you must feel privileged to go there. It's a very tough area.

No, I was not privileged. I was mad. I was mad to leave Thurso where I'd had my best success and where I'd had this wonderful, wonderful family that had joined. And, you know, I felt like my mission was a success because President Banks had told me that if we didn't baptize anybody, that he was just going to shut the area down. And we saved it. We saved Verso. And I thought, "Geez, and so you reward me by sending me to the Drum? Come on." I went down there and I trained a new elder, Elder Rose, who was the fastest typist I had ever met. And I think he spent the rest of his mission in the mission office. I don't think he proselyted ever again because he was just this amazing typist and office guy. Uh, I, I'd forgotten about Elder Rose. I haven't even thought of him forever and ever. I was training him, and we were living in this, in this apartment with a guy named Eddie who was a constant investigator. We were living in an area that was not our actual area, so Eddie wouldn't have been our our investigator. The zone leaders would come over every once in a while and teach Eddie lessons, uh, but Eddie would drive us places. Eddie at one point painted a copy of the first Abraham facsimile on his wall in color. He colorized it. It's the coolest thing ever. Uh, but he was the sort of constant investigator. He never quite was willing to join. I don't think he ever did join, but he was a good guy. And it— but getting down to the Drum, it was just a difficult area for anybody to live in. It was just a hard part of Glasgow. It wasn't right in Glasgow. I'm not sure what the municipality how those boundaries work, but it— I got down there and our ward mission leader was a 17-year-old kid by the name of Gary McNaughton. I think you know Gary.

Indirectly, yes. I've heard of it.

I think you're his Facebook friend, though. I think he's actually stepped off of Facebook. But Gary, at the age of 17, was made an acting high priest. They got permission from Salt Lake City. They didn't ordain him as a high priest, but they said he could function as a high priest in order to hold all of these callings. And the 17-year-old kid was holding the entire ward together. It was just amazing. And he was just so fired up and so excited and, and just so helpful and friendly. And, you know, we had this one program where we were supposed to go to everybody and get them to give them the name of their friends. And Gary kept talking about this and he goes, "So, so how are we doing on the Betray Your Friends program?" I mean, he was funny. He was witty. I mean, he was just one of the best friends I made on my mission. And during this time, my father had just his company had gone public and he found himself a multimillionaire. You know, I'd grown up and my father was consistently unemployed and we didn't have any money growing up. And he'd get mad when we'd ask him for lunch money because we couldn't afford it. And then all of a sudden now he had this company that had gone public and he was sitting next to Elton Perry at lunch. And El Tom Perry was asking him about his career. And he says, well, my first son, my older brother, went on a mission. I was here and then it got better. And then my second son went out right after he got back. And now my company's gone public. And, you know, I'm worth all this money. And El Tom Perry says, well, it's time to get another missionary. Sounds to me like you need another missionary out there. And so Dad wrote to me and said, Do you know of anybody that would need support on their mission? And I was in Drum Chapel and I went, yeah, I do. Gary McNaughton is planning on going on a mission and he doesn't have the money or the resources to do it. And I— he says, I'd be happy to sponsor him on his mission. So my father paid for Gary McNaughton's mission. And Gary McNaughton had a very successful mission from what I hear. I think he went to Brussels, if I remember correctly. But he came home and, and he left the church because Gary McNaughton is gay. He was not in the closet. He was deeply in the closet while he was serving as the ward mission leader. I had no idea that he was gay. But, but he left church. And I've since seen him. He's since come over to Utah at least twice. And one time he came over and we had this big gathering at my parents' house and my father was there. And I think it was the first time my father had a chance to meet him. And Gary was very frustrated with how he'd been treated by the church. Uh, I don't know if he was excommunicated or if he resigned. I know they were threatening to excommunicate him, and they may well have. Uh, but, uh, it was so clear too that at one point he, he messaged me, and I mean, he'd be on Facebook and he would talk about the church, and he'd be frustrated with the church, and he'd be angry about the church. But then on Facebook, he sent me, he says, I, I, I can't tell you how much I love the church, how much I wish I could have made the church work. And, and I couldn't. I couldn't do it because there wasn't room for me because of who I am. And it sort of broke my heart. Uh, but I, I look at Gary's life and it's very clear, even having left the church on really bad terms, All of those values, all of that service that he offered as a kid and as a missionary, all of that shaped him into the wonderful, decent person that he is now, despite all of that other kinds of stuff. And so I look at him and his experience as kind of the core contradiction at the heart of the church, because the church can do things like reject a gay person who has devoted their life to the church and just inflict this, this level of trauma on them. And yet still there is this, this goodness at the core of it that, that survives those moments. You know, Gary's faith and goodness didn't disappear when he left the church, and that's still a part of him and still a part of what he does. And so I look at my own life now and go, you know, even if I were to leave the church, I wouldn't really leave the church. There's just too much there. And most of it is good, and some of it is wonderful. I mean, some of it is the core, the very core, the very essence of who I am. And, and I could no sooner deny that than I could cut off my arm. It's, it's just who I am. And would I be that person without the church? I mean, those are the kinds of hypotheticals that I can never answer. I remember going on with John DeLinn And he's like, well, what if you were raised in a Muslim family? Wouldn't you feel all this stuff about Muslims and Islam? And I don't know, probably. There are a lot of good Muslims out there. There's some goodness in there. But at the core, at the core of all of it, I guess, I guess this is where I'm going with it. At the core of all of it is God. And that goodness, that wonderful, that's God. And you can find God in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I did, and I have. And, and so this is where God— this is where I found God. And conversely, this is where I feel like God wants me. This is where God has put me. And so I— that is what preoccupies me, and that is, is what matters to me. And so when you start talking about the Kinderhook plates or the stone in the hat or the this, that, and the other, I just— there was a time when I really cared about stuff and I really wanted to, you know, engage in those battles and defend the church on all of that. And now I— it just doesn't matter to me. It just doesn't matter. What matters is my personal relationship with the divine? And is the church helping me in maintaining that, in strengthening that? Or is the church getting in the way? And I think there are people, I think I'm talking to one right now, where the church was getting in the way, where the church had reached a point, you know, Radio Free Mormon, who's this podcaster, That's not his name, but that's the only name I think of him by. His name is Corbin something or other. He always tells people, "I have graduated from Mormonism. I haven't left Mormonism. I don't want to frame it as a negative. I've graduated. You know, Mormonism taught me this much, but now I've gone on and I can be better outside the church." And yet he spends his time engaging the church and criticizing the church to a large degree. You know, if you graduated from Mormonism, I think you'd move on to something better rather than move on to tearing down the institution you graduated from. But I always wonder, do I need to graduate from Mormonism? Is it possible to continue sort of this journey, uh, and— or is the church— is there a box? Is there a limit to it? Because I, I have less and less patience for the idea of God in a box, that the church— this is the only place where you can find God, this is the box, this is the— this is it, everybody outside the box doesn't have it— which is, which is what I taught on my mission, and I no longer believe that. I believe God is so much more expansive, so much more inclusive than we can possibly imagine. And I wish Mormons would recognize that our own doctrine teaches that. If not, then what are we doing all this goofy temple work for if we don't think that everybody is going to be saved? I'm a universalist. I think everybody gets there eventually. And I do that through a Mormon framework. I still believe in, you know, celestial, terrestrial, telestial, but I believe there's movement in those kingdoms. I don't think God ever abandons us. I think eternity is a very, very, very long time, and eventually everybody gets where they need to be. And if it means that Adolf Hitler has to burn in hell for a billion years for each of the Jews who was murdered in the Holocaust, which means he would be burning for 6 trillion years, That's still nothing because eternity continues, you know. So the idea that at some point, okay, God is done with us, there's a final judgment, and you're just stuck in this telestial kingdom and you can never be with your family, that doesn't make any sense. I don't, I don't believe in a God that works that way, but I believe in a God that can work through the framework of the church to which I belong, uh, to improve lives. And to get us closer to him. And I think that the church at its best does that and continues to do that. But I think the church at its worst gets in the way of that. And I saw that on my mission as well. You know, I served in Drum Chapel. We had some good experiences in Drum Chapel. Then I served in an area Although I went back to Dundee after Drumchapel, I went back to Dundee as a zone leader. And, you know, I felt, okay, I finally arrived. I'm a zone leader now. Although I moved to Dundee in an emergency transfer because there was an elder that had a woman that was chasing after him. And so they transferred him out in the dead of night and put me in there. And then the rumors started that the reason I had been transferred from Drumchapel is that I was having an affair. Uh, and I remember President Banks walking into an interview with me and didn't even say hello. And he said, are you having an affair with a woman in Mulgai? The first thing I want to say was, first of all, it's not Mulgai, President. It's still Drumchapel. You can't pretend this is anything else but Drumchapel. And then the second, my second answer was, No, absolutely not. And he's like, I didn't think so.

Didn't have time to have affairs. We were so busy.

Well, and I just kept thinking, who would I be having an affair with? I wasn't meeting a lot of ladies that I could go out and be dating. It was in Drumchapel where we started having to— we got the call to do an hour's worth of GQing every day. You know, GQing, the Golden Questions, which President Nelson will be mad about because the Golden Questions were, "What do you know about the Mormons, and would you like to know more?" And usually the answer was nothing and no. But we were given these little handouts for Together Forever, right? This was one, Together Forever, the video that was going out. Uh, we're showing it to everybody. Together Forever, when you were out there, Together Forever.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, because, and because I know they did Our Heavenly Father's Plan before that.

Yeah, there was the one that hit in the '80s. We, we were very much involved in, uh, rolling that out in the, uh, well, the British Isles and around the world. That was in our time for sure.

Okay. Yeah. Cause, cause the first time I was doing that, it was in Thurso and we got this referral from it. I mean, they put an ad in the, in Scottish newspapers.

Yep.

And we, we got this referral and we called her and she said, where have you been? I, I'm waiting for you. Get here as soon as possible. And we were like, oh my gosh, manna from heaven. So we get in the car and we drive to this address. It's a mental institution. And she was a mental patient. And they let us see her. They said she's asked to see us. And they said, okay, but we don't want you to think that, uh, this is— understand the limitations here. And she was severely mentally ill and it didn't go anywhere. And I can remember teaching her the first discussion in this group room. Where there was this one guy pacing back and forth, muttering to himself like something out of a movie. And there was a guy sitting next to her who had this piece of drool that was just coming out the side of his mouth, and it just sat there. It never— it was just this— it totally streamed down to his shirt. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is not This is not what it's supposed to be. This was supposed to be the answer to all our questions. And when I was in Drum Chapel, we were passing out these little pamphlets that, you know, said, hey, here, click here and you can watch together forever. Click here. That's not internet. It was, hey, this is whatever it was. And we would do it in a mall. There was a mall in Clydebank where that had the best custard donuts. And Elder Rose and I would be passing them out. And Elder Rose hated it so much. I kind of got into it. I was just like, the way I would GQ is I would stop somebody and I'd say, hey, and I'd have no idea what the next thing I would say would be. And sometimes it was, hey, are those your shoes? Like, yeah. Oh, great. Well, I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And would you, you know, what do you know about the Mormons? Would you like to know more? Or whatever else it was. And we found a family that way that we ended up baptizing. And I was able to come back from Dundee when I was a zone leader and baptize this family and attend their baptism. And that was a really wonderful, special experience. But I remember going up to Elder Rose while he was GQing and saying, are you doing all right? He says, Go away or die. Okay, I'll leave you alone. And so we'd go, I mean, we were always in view, but he would just stand there and watch people walk by and just was so terrified that he wouldn't stop anybody. I felt like, oh, you're just not doing the work, Elder. And poor guy, he was just so shy and it was just so painful for him. But, you know, I think it was in Drum Chapel when we got a visit from a General Authority, Elder Robert E. Sackley. Do you remember that name?

I do, yes.

Do you remember him coming?

Yes.

What, what are your memories of what he said?

No memory whatsoever.

Uh, it rankled me. It made me sore, uh, because he got up there and he said You are not— uh, clearly, look at the numbers of baptisms in this mission. You guys are not righteous enough. You guys are not doing the job. You guys are not doing the work. He says, when I was a mission president, we were baptizing over 200 people a month, and last month you baptized 15. And I sat there and I went, okay, well, where are you? Were you a mission president?

Yes.

President in Scotland? And as he talked, he finally said he was a mission president in the Philippines. And he said, don't try to tell me that it's any different in the Philippines than it is in Scotland, because the Lord is the same everywhere. And I don't know who I was sitting next to in the pews, but I pulled out my Book of Mormon and I pulled out the story of the sons of Mosiah in prison and showed it to the guy sitting next to me. And the verse was, it was their lot to have fallen among a more hard-hearted people than Ammon. Right. The idea that the Philippines and Scotland are interchangeable and I should be having as much success in Scotland as I have in the Philippines. It just made me so mad and it made me so frustrated that it's like, why are you doing this? You are a general authority. Everybody in this room is looking at you as if you are a god. You have so much authority. We are so impressed with you. We are out telling everybody that people like you speak to Jesus face to face on a regular basis. And that's what we all believed. I don't know if I believe that the '70s were doing that, but I certainly believe the apostles were doing that. And, and for you to come to this group of young people who have put everything aside to go out and face rejection and pain and trauma and frustration every stinking day of your lives, and then just say the reason you were not baptizing is your fault. What a terrible message. It just made me so angry. And it makes me even angrier now because, because that was the message that my son, who experienced all this trauma on his mission, you know, I've talked about that. And I think my son wants to come on the podcast. Somebody had said to you, hey, is Jim, is Jim okay? Is Jim Bennett's kids okay with him talking about this mission trauma? And not only are they okay, they want to get out there and talk about it because he was diagnosed with a condition called scrupulosity, which is obsessive-compulsive disorder in a religious context. And missions are a breeding ground for scrupulosity. I didn't have a label for it, but I'm pretty sure that's what I experienced. I think I've moved beyond it. I don't, I don't feel that anymore. But the mission sort of drilled that into you. So, so, so yeah, there's all this goodness. And then there's that. There's the Elder Sacklies. There's the, you are not good enough. You're terrible. In your mission, you spend the entire time thinking you're not good enough. And the fact that you're not baptizing, it's your fault. You're doing something wrong. It's never the church's fault. It's never the fact that this is not a message that's resonating with people. And, and I'm seeing that more and more now, particularly as the church sort of doubles down on a message that doesn't work. Uh, the message we're going out and telling everybody is that we're the one true church. And Jana Reese, who's a columnist for the Religion News Service, and she's also a member of the church, She wrote a thing about— she says millennials aren't asking which is the one true church. They're asking, why do I even need a church at all? And I think we have the capacity to answer that question, but we don't do it. We don't do it. We continue to frame this in a way— I think our missionary efforts are 30, 40 years behind or more. Because this message wasn't really resonating 35 years ago. Maybe it was resonating 50 years ago. I think the message that resonated 50 years ago, the message that fueled the meteoric rise of the church through the '70s and '80s when we thought this is going to become a major new world religion to rival Islam and Christianity, as you know, Orthodox Christianity, or Judaism. This is— Mormonism is going to become the fourth major Abrahamic religion. There were all kinds of social scientists who believed that, in and out of the church. And but the message that I think resonated was the power of the nuclear family. The Mormons sort of just sold, we're the family religion. This is where your family can be together forever. And all that, and we still talk about that. But we're now talking about that in an environment where you're saying, well, wait a minute, what about my family? I'm married to a man, you know, and does my family fit? No, your family doesn't fit. Your family doesn't count. And so that message no longer has the kind of resonance it had back when everybody was a homophobe. Back when everybody assumed that there was just something evil and wicked about being gay and about being queer. And, you know, so, so that didn't come up on the mission much because the church's position was consistent with the world's position. And the world now has, has moved towards acceptance and the church has not. So, so the message that we're out there spreading is a message either one that doesn't resonate or one that comes into direct conflict with the values of the world. Does that make sense?

It is. Yes, makes sense. Everything you said, listened to, and I— it resonates with me. Just some thoughts, because I know we probably coming up to the, um, you know, the, the end of the podcast here, I think, in the, in a few minutes.

And we have more here than I realized. This is what you do, you do distinct actions.

But as I listen to you and I go back to, you know, the extraordinary profound impact missions have had on our lives, I think, you know, and now see it in a— I see it in its— as it was in its original state, but I see also from a different perspective where I am in my life and see the changes that the church has gone through with the challenges that it faces. And to your— some one of your points that you mentioned in the last 15 minutes was the profound positive impact and benefits that the church had on people's lives in Scotland. And I saw that like you all the time. And so, so for me, the experience of the mission, my memories of the mission and not necessarily the doctrine or the policies so much, They are to some extent, but it's the relationships that I forged, that I built, and the, you know, I, I, I just saw myself actually helping people in real terms, helping building their self-esteem, their self-worth, make, helping them to become happy, helping them to make good choices, helping them to keep the families together, to, to help them to see the, the value of, of the relationships and to help them make good judgments and to help them feel good about who they are and the value that they're a child of God, that they're worth something, that God loves them and they're important to God, and that they have a place and a purpose in life. And that, um, I, I see my role in that was, is, is actually helping people realize those, um, eternal truths, notwithstanding the, um, you know, how the church has changed and some of the issues that the church is, is going through right now. So I saw that the church is a vehicle for serving others, an extraordinary vehicle, organized, structured. You mentioned about John de Linn and, you know, would you feel the same way if you grew up in a Muslim faith or would you have the same experience? And I, you know, I grew up in the Church of England and I could tell you growing up up until the '60s, the organization structure of the Church of England is completely different entirely in every way to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There's no real structure organization to serve, or hardly at all, um, in the Church of England. Growing up is a family, or whatever your family dynamics are, if you're youth, or regardless of, of your age, unless you learn about it and you go to school and you become a vicar or a priest, or you become some administrative assistant, which is a paid, you know, job where you have professional training. The church, and I think that could be said for most organizations, most faiths, many faiths at least, is different in that it allows anyone from any background, including people like me who came from very dysfunctional community, you know, council estate background, to serve in different capacities, leadership, you know, no matter where your background is, where you come from, the church provides opportunities to serve, to lead, and to have a profound effect, or at least help people in very meaningful, in very significant ways. And I think that's an extraordinary offering that the church even today provides people who are willing to serve and willing to commit and to use the church as a vehicle. It's quite extraordinary. And we've said that that's one of the most significant things that the church can offer— the, the structure and the vehicle to extraordinary service. The second point I would add to that is that, uh, the church allows that structure and organization, and it focuses resources internally to allow you to serve people internally mostly, and the thing that's missing is the external piece. I think if it could achieve the same level of structure and organization and power where it serves itself, that it's each member serves each other internally within that organization, within the structure, which it does extremely well, extremely effective, perhaps more than most. If it could replicate that or leverage that or build on that to become even more efficient and effective at serving the community in, in, in the same extraordinary ways that members serve each other within the, you know, internally within the structures of the church, et cetera. Auxiliaries serving each other and supporting each other, stake, ward level, you know, and, and the higher levels of the, of the church, which is incredibly organized, well structured. It really is a a professionally organized structure where people can form extraordinary and experience extraordinary spiritual events on a very, very personal level. If you could extend that structure beyond its own walls to the outside community, be more inclusive and bring that organization, that power structure, that that system to, uh, other, all those tools or instruments, etc., and the structure in, in a way that delivers more service to the community, then I think it would be even more powerful, you know, force for the good. You talked about the Mormon God and, and, you know, God is not in a box, and, and, and I I used to think God was this very clear, distinct, structured individual that was a certain type of individuals and it was a Mormon God. I'm like you, I don't see that anymore. The idea of eternity, I find it difficult to fathom the idea of how the judgments are made, all the complexities of, you know, you gave the Hitler example there and, you know, I can't even fathom how you can, or any, not you personally, but how God can arrive at a wise judgment assessment of someone like that and how that individual's life works out in the next life. And I do believe there is a next life. The complexity of and the responsibility of an accountable for making that extraordinary judgment of where people end up after this life, I can't fathom how that, how that works, or even begin to understand that. And then the, the, the the other piece is, is the, um, for me is the, you know, the church provided extraordinary opportunity for spirituality and spiritual experiences. For me, that's gone now. That's been— I, I'd made the decision to remove myself, uh, from that in a formal way, uh, not understanding or knowing that that meant the church would also do the same. The members would also disown me and disconnect with me. And losing a community experience like that, a community of relationships which I valued so enormously, almost overnight, was been— has been very, very painful for me. So I've had to find that spirituality somewhere else, and I find it in my family, my friends, reconnected with my old, um, you know, school friends who I to one of your points earlier where you, you feel— I don't think I felt superior in the church, but I think I was way too judgmental of people who did not live the modern life. You know, people who, like friends I grew with, who had tattoos.

Yeah.

Who drank, who smoke. You know, I don't drink or smoke, but I, I have two tattoos, which I'm very, very proud of. And so I've— my new perspectives on life and the church has changed my, um, judgment. And so I've reconnected with people who I thought were um, you know, unrighteous perhaps, or not, uh, quality— the type of quality person that I should be associating with. And again, following the church's doctrine that we shouldn't associate or spend too much time with people who are not living, you know, the least basic standards that the church subscribes to, and make a judgment of who you hang out with and your friends, etc., which it does. It It does that a lot, and I can understand why it would do that, but that brings some level of, you know, that, that's a judgment that you make. Sometimes you can be quite harsh and judge people, and people are not good enough, and you can feel a bit superior, be quite judgmental, and, and they're not to your standards or to Mormon standards, therefore they're not good enough to associate with, or you don't associate with them, and they're— they could pull you down and, and be a bad influence on you. I don't see it like that now. I've actually re-engaged with old friends that are extraordinary people. You know, they drink and they smoke and they swear and they have tattoos and they're very colorful and the people I grew up with, but now I've grown to love them and I adore them and I love them for who they are. They don't, you know, they've not turned me into an alcoholic or, you know, anything like that. And so my whole perspective on human nature has improved. I like the idea of graduating from, Arminianism. I think that resonates with me because of where I am. You know, your position is different than my position, Rana. You're still active, you're still very much involved in the church. You, you know, you attend the choir. You're in a different position, uh, to me. I feel I have, uh, graduated. I've, um, matured. I, I, I— there's aspects of the church I value, but those aspects, those elements of the church, Jim, I've learned they're universal now. They're not exclusive to the church. You know, love, service, kindness, forgiveness, committed service, being a good friend, keeping a confidence. Those values are not exclusive or universal to the church. The relationship with God is not universal, you know, is not exclusive rather to the church. I think anyone can have a relationship with God and have spiritual experiences. You don't need walls or The Church of Jesus Christ allowed its saints to have spiritual experience. I know many people who have profound experiences and they're not members of the church, and they're extraordinary people. And so this exclusivity that the church has on, on certain things like the family, I think that's gone. And, uh, the, the whole religious, uh, dynamics in Christianity is changing now. We're becoming more, you know, countries, uh, Christian countries are becoming more secular. France is the most secular, I think. UK is extremely secular. United States is becoming more secular, and Canada, I think, is certainly becoming more secular as well. So there's, you know, what's the need for religion? What's the need for faith? Why go to church? Can you get that, get that experience by going walking, going hiking, going sailing, or serving the community, you know, doing a food drive? A lot of people get meaning and purpose by doing things in the community. And, and that to me is, is, is spiritual, and I think it is to them as well. So this, this, uh, exclusive, um, claim that the church has had that you can only be happy if you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, like, you're going to be, be your complete self and fulfill your, your, your complete, um, um, achieve your full experience of life that can only be achieved if you're a member of the church and you're fully active and you go to the temple and pay your tithing. Only full and total complete happiness, wholesome happiness, can be found within the church. I think that argument has gone. Being the only true faith, the church upon the face of the earth, in whom the Lord is pleased with collectively, not individually, that claim that we're the only true church, I've not heard that said in very many talks for a long time. And I think the church can no longer make that claim. I think there's other paths up the mountain, and some of those paths are more treacherous, yes, um, but they also offer a different perspective, different viewpoint, and also can open up other beauties and other panoramas along the way, even though it's a different path. There's no one set path to God. And, and that, um, so I, I, I see life and, and people and, um, and human nature in a much broader, more universal, uh, prism than I did through this very narrow, prescribed, prescriptive, um, missionary view that you've got to be exactly like this, into this mold, and live exactly like this, etc. And I was very committed to that, didn't question that. And so I, I gone, my experience has completely gone more universal, less judgment, and I feel a better person for it.

Well, I don't know. I can let that be the last word. See, the only thing I'd add to it is I was asked, the first question I was asked when I went on John DeLinn was how do I reconcile? The idea of being the one true church with my personal faith. And one of the ways I look at it is everybody gets saved, but it's the Mormons who do the paperwork, right? All these ordinances and everything else, they're being done in order to connect us to everybody else. And so all of that work gets done for everybody, and it's the church that is doing it. And so I think you can, you can sort of still embrace that idea of priesthood authority and that importance, uh, as long as you, uh, inclusively interpret what that means. That, that being the only true church does not mean you are the only good people. It means you have more responsibility than anybody else to improve the lives of those around you, that you have— we have been given a charge to, to make heaven on earth, to make it on earth as it is in heaven. And I think we have misunderstood that charge and sort of embraced the worst aspects of it. The aspects that say we are special, we are, we were on our rameumptoms. You know, we're better than everybody else. I think that there's still too much of that. I haven't heard, you're right, I haven't heard a lot of General Conference talks lately about this being the one true church. But I've heard plenty of testimonies on a local level of people who stand up and talk about how wonderful our church is and how nobody outside this church he's really truly happy. I think that actually needs to be the subject of one of our podcasts, uh, is happiness inside the church. Is it possible?

Back to that a lot, you know, the only true church, some of this exclusivity, etc. It is a topic I think it's worth exploring in detail because that's a very significant and a very serious statement and quite a, quite a ballsy statement to— right, used to say quite a lot on the mission that, um, essentially basically ours is the only way to to God. And, and, and if you're not on this, if you're not a Mormon, you will not go back to God. Essentially, that was what people heard. So yeah, it is still in there, you know, Section 130, I think it is. And, uh, and in the Doctrine and Covenants, I think it's a— keep coming back to that. It's such an important, profound, pivotal scripture that, uh, we should explore that a bit further.

All right, so we have, we have a topic for next time. But in Till then, uh, thank you for listening, and we hope to see you again next time on Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you very much, Jim. Oh, wow!