Missions, Metrics, and the Stories We Tell Ourselves

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett, and there is only one other person with me here today, and he is the mighty Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I am doing really well, Jim. How are you, sir?

Well, I'm all right. It's been a while since it's been just the two of us. We've done some live streams with just the two of us lately, but we always end up answering all of the comments. And, uh, so this is the first time in a little while where it's just you and me. I hope we don't bore everybody.

I've missed that. You know, we've had loads of amazing guests. You know, we have a live program now. Uh, and I've, um, you know, I was telling my family that I've missed this like one-to-one thing with Jim Bennett because we kind of COVID some amazing ground and, uh, it's, it's a different experience. It's a very different positive experience for me. So I, it's, it's a real, uh, honor to be with you, uh, uh, to, to have this conversation with you today. Uh, certainly on the topics that we'll be discussing.

Sure. Likewise, sir. So, uh, you had seen an article, uh, written by Elder Rasband that, uh, attracted your attention that you wanted to talk about. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Absolutely. So Elder Rasband, uh, attended the MTC recently. So this is an article that I came across on Deseret News, and the date is January 29th, which is today at 3:23 PM. So it's kind of hot off the press. And Elder Rasband makes some very interesting claims, and those claims are worth reviewing and having a conversation on. He said here in the headline, he said it's a remarkable time to serve. This is speaking to around about 900 new missionaries in the MTC. He said, we are only scratching the surface of what the Lord has in store for us as he prepares the world for his second coming, says Apostle to Training Missionaries. Do you remember on your mission and before your mission, the same messages? That we were out there, you know, this is what, 35 years ago, and that we were, our work would be to usher in the second coming and we were there to warn people, etc. And that we're going to see the church spread across the earth. It's the same message. This message has not changed over the last 35 or 40 years or so. So yeah, so during the meeting, he said that The church will fill North and South America. It will fill the world. And the article goes on to say that nearly, now nearly two centuries later, members of the church are seeing this happen. The number of missionaries serving, uh, the number of missionaries serving, people choosing to be baptized, and temples being built are all increasing. And, and just before we get into the article here, we've had, you and I have had these conversations, we've had, uh,, input feedback from people who've attended our Inside Out Live program that happens every Tuesday night at 7 PM Mountain Time. Uh, we've had our guests on, and there's been, uh, times where we have discussed, including with Greg Prince, uh, and in particular, Greg Prince's Roadmap for Improving Mormonism speaks about church growth and some of the barriers to church growth. And there's the message of that picked up and learned from that, Jim Bennett, you know, if we kind of string all those conversations together, is that the church in many ways is in decline. People's interest in religion generally seems to be diminishing. If the data's, some of the data's pretty bleak. Young people are leaving the church on record numbers. Again, that's what I've heard. You can chime in on that. Uh, we've heard that people under, in a certain demographic, perhaps under 40 or 45, have issues with the church. Uh, the retention is difficult in, in many parts of the world. The church in Scotland seems to be, uh, diminishing faster than ever. Europe, and I, I, I only, uh, know this, uh, based on my family relationships and friend relationships, in the UK and in Europe who tell me that, you know, over the last few years, there's less and less people physically attending the church. That seems to be the case certainly in the UK and certainly across Europe. Elder Rasband goes on to say, do we not all feel wonder and awe in our hearts? He was with his wife at the event, and basically he talks about how the church is growing and prospering. And so, have you, just before we get into some of the details there, what's your take, Jim, on growth of the church? You know, you're tracking some of this, you know, people speak to you, you've spoken about this passionately, are you, uh, seeing growth in where you are in the church? Do you see growth beyond the region area that you're living in? What's your take on if the church is growing or not?

Well, I don't have any hard numbers. I don't know a lot of people who do, or if any people do really. Um, but, um, uh, from what I am seeing, uh, at least in North America Well, so, so this is all anecdotal. This is, I mean, from my personal experience, uh, I see shrinkage. I see fewer and fewer young people coming to church. Uh, I, my, my daughter reported to me from the USC Institute, uh, just how small the University of Southern California Institute has become. And there's a new institute director there and She said that, oh, the institute director is a woman and said that she was the only person who had applied for that job. And when I was at the University of Southern California, the institute was jammed with people and there were people lining up essentially to, to get that job, to, to work at the institute. You know, Paul Dunn used to work at the USC Institute. To do that, interestingly enough. But it's, it's just so I look at the area I grew up in, which is Southern California, and there is no question that the church has shrunk precipitously in Southern California. There are, there used to be several stakes, multiple stakes within the Los Angeles city limits. Now there is precisely one. And, you know, so that doesn't necessarily mean that the church as a whole is shrinking. And certainly the numbers that we see out of Africa, that we see out of the developing world, demonstrate that throughout the world, and particularly in Africa, the church is growing at a rather sizable clip. And so the question then becomes for church leaders Or do we just sort of focus all of our energy on where the church is growing and just ignore the fact that we're seeing this kind of attrition in the United States? Now, we had your friend on. His name escapes me. He was a mission president in Belgium. President Darrell Watson.

And I was thinking—

Darrell Watson.

—exactly the same thing when you were speaking.

But yeah, and I brought that up with him because all the evidence seems to suggest that Europe is shrinking. And he said that's nonsense, but the people they're baptizing aren't Europeans. The people they're baptizing are immigrants and people from outside of, you know, that have, that have come into these countries but are not traditionally Belgian or French or Italian in all of these different countries. I mean, we, we can see shrinkage in Scotland because we were, we both served in the Scotland Edinburgh Mission and it's now the Scotland Ireland Mission. They've combined both missions. You don't do that if you've got enough activity for missionaries in Scotland alone. And so, so from my experience, I, I don't know that Elder Rasband is being dishonest. But I think the implication that the church is growing everywhere equally, and I don't know if he says that or not, but if that's the implication, that I think that is somewhat disingenuous and not true.

We'll get into some of the— his details because he's got 5, 6 specific items, points that he is— what he claims he has debunked. And by the way, before I get into these, because each one are fascinating actually, um, I'm on the Edinburgh, uh, Stake Facebook page as I am, uh, I think there's, there's a, my, my ward, uh, in England. Um, and I'm also part of another ward and they post their activities, their social activities and the whole makeup of those activities. As you can see, people attending them. Does support what President Darrell Watson and what you've just said, that the demographics have changed significantly. If I'm going on those, you know, those images on the Facebook pages there from those events, and the whole makeup looks completely different to when you and I were serving in Scotland. So that seems to be consistent with what President Darrell has said. You've got a huge influx of immigrants that arrived and have traveled over many, many years. They continue to move into Europe and the UK certainly, and we're now seeing those individuals very clearly, very visibly make up these congregations in the UK certainly, and certainly in Scotland. So just going back to the article here, and I'm really keen to get your thoughts and blunt opinions on this, on these specific items. Elder Rasband said, we should all thank Heavenly Father that we get to have a front row seat to the fulfillment of ancient and modern-day prophecy. Uh, he's just been called as the chair of the missionary executive council, so he's in a very senior, uh, position there. Uh, he says, realizing that God is currently doing a marvelous work and wonder throughout the world, and that you are all part, about to begin to be part of that work, that builds your faith and trust in him. Again, he's speaking in English. He then goes on to debunk tries to debunk some false narratives. And his opening comment before he gets into the details is this: to illustrate the Lord's hastening of his work. And by the way, that's what President Oaks's training was when we were called and set apart into a stake presidency. The main focus was, you know, now we have the church established, we've got very clear, you know, uh, plan of salvation. It's all, all the infrastructure is there. The goal now, President Oaks said to us, the new stake president, is to hasten the work. You've got the foundations, now make it go faster. We kind of bought into that. Elder Rasband counted 6 false narratives from those who cannot see or acknowledge what is happening. So if you push back at this, or I do, it's because we cannot see or acknowledge what is happening. We're going to take that at face value. False narrative number 1, the rising generation has less faith in Jesus Christ. Than previous generations. Contrary to that narrative, more missionaries, he says, are serving Jesus Christ now than have in many years. Your generation, he continues, is not as faithful. No, you have as much faith in Jesus Christ as any previous generation. So Jim, Jim Bennett, is this false narrative, this narrative number 1, is it false? Which is the rising generation has less faith in Jesus Christ than previous generations.

Well, there's a bit of sleight of hand there, isn't there? Because he's not talking about the rising generation— there are more people in the rising generation that have faith in Jesus Christ than in previous generations. What he's saying is that the generation is just as faithful, if not more so, than previous generations, but that allows for you to sort of shift the numbers. Because if this generation is smaller than previous generations, it can still sort of per capita, if you will, have as much or more faith than previous generations. And I think that's probably true because I think that people who stay faithful, particularly young people who are still active and still faithful, Even as we're seeing this kind of attrition in the church as a whole, uh, it— the people who stay are very committed and very devoted to the church and to the cause. So, so I think that there's a little bit of— I call it sleight of hand. Maybe you might call it moving the goalposts a little bit, because he's not making a numerical claim here. He's making a substantive claim about the nature of the faith of the rising generation. And I think, taken on those terms, that it's a near-accurate statement.

Yeah, I concur with that. And by the way, I looked at the article, and when you start talking about growth and progress, certainly in the business world, what do people expect you to back up your statements. They expect at least two things: facts and numbers. So, you know, um, when you're talking about growth, how do you quantify that? Well, you quantify it numerically. You know, we're here, we're growing here, and this is the rate of growth. And there appears to be no reference to that, um, any metrics, uh, any numbers in the article. And that's worrying. That kind of jumps out as a big red flag. The other second point I want to make is that when you're talking about measuring faith, that's a phenomenological concept as opposed to positivistic. How do you measure faith? How do you quantify faith? Well, that's very difficult to do numerically. It's difficult to do, but that's the statement and it's hard to contest his claim that, you know, people have less faith. They probably have more. He's at, at no. So it's a very safe statement. There's no, no numerical quantification there. You can't measure from one unit to another. And so it's difficult to challenge that based on that information. I mean, is he talking about the rising generation? Is that young LDS Mormons? I suspect it is. He's talking about that. He's talking about just young people in general, uh, you know, in the public across America or the world. It's unclear. So it's a very strategic, safe messaging. You can't challenge it or test it. It, you know, it could say, hey, I've heard all these personal accounts from these, um, Sister Richards, which he quotes at the end, by the way, at the article. And he could say, hey, look, You can see there's the proof, uh, that your faith in young people is growing. So that's a difficult one, I think, to, um, to kind of, uh, push back on because it's, you know, how do you quantify that? Uh, false narrative 2, the church is declining as interest in organized religion decreases. And I can't wait to get your opinion on this. He says here, the last 12 months saw the largest number of convert baptisms in any 12-month period in this dispensation, said Elder Rasband. It's a remarkable time to serve. He said, he added, the future is bright, elders and sisters, and you are at the center of it. So again, no numbers, you know, we can't compare numbers. There's no units, there's no numbers. But here's the claim. The church is declining as interest in organized religion decreases. What do you think about that?

Uh, well, I don't know that that one can hold up. Uh, well, it depends again. There's, there's so, my father used to say about Mitch McConnell that he was able to make statements that didn't have any handles on them. In other words, he could make a statement that you couldn't really grab at and yank out and say, well, wait a minute, I had to take issue with this, that you would always slide off whenever you tried to grab the statement. And this strikes me as a similar sort of statement because you want to grab onto it and know, now wait a minute, interest is declining in organized religion and the church— interest in the church is declining with regard to organized religion. And yet he's kind of framing this when you, when you talk about the, the vast number of convert baptisms, that is, I think, a legitimate statistic. But again, it's, it's fed by massive growth in the developing world, not in the United States and not in Europe and not in anywhere else. You know, I, one of my best friends growing up served his mission in Japan, and I don't hear anything about the church in Japan anymore. And makes me think the church has all but vanished. In Japan. And, you know, we, we, you know, he is essentially taking those numbers and extrapolating outward and saying the entirety of the church is reflected in these numbers. And I don't think that if he were to say that that explicitly, that that would be a statement he could defend. But he's making a statement that doesn't have any handles on it. That I think he can defend. As you say, it's one of these things that isn't really verifiable. It isn't— there isn't any way to go after it and say, now wait a minute, let's look at the numbers specifically because you said this specific thing that we can track down and measure. He's not offering any kind of metric that we can do that with. Does that make sense?

It doesn't make sense. Again, it's in sharp contrast to the meetings I attend where leaders of businesses actually show you the numbers, right? You know, they've got the facts, they do research, because if they don't, if they make a statement in business or whatever on a project or whatever, and it's verified, it can't be verified, you've lost confidence immediately. I mean, you're not going to stay in that position, right? So it's It's again, it's another soft way of making, you know, making a statement that there's no numbers to check it, right? I think the church is experiencing growth in like in Europe from those demographics that we talked about and Africa, you know, we hear that, you know, pockets of growth, but it's just specific areas. And again, there's no numbers, so it's hard to quantify and hard to measure. False narrative number 3. He says, he says this: baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others. Well, my goodness, that's such a safe statement. I've just said that, haven't I? I've just said it's growing in Africa and growing in parts of Europe and growing in—

but he's saying that's false. Well, he's saying it false narrative.

Baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others. He's saying that's false narrative number 3. He says this, the number of God's children being baptized is increasing in every region of the world. I'm not misquoting that here, right? Elder Rasband said, he added that the region with the highest percentage of growth in baptism, uh, in 2025 was Europe. No matter where a missionary is called, you can have faith that the Lord is hastening his work in your area. He encouraged, his miracles are filling the whole world. That is verifiably false. That last one for sure. So his false narrative, if you try to debunk the false narrative number 3, he says this: baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others. What does Jim Bennett think?

I don't think, I don't know how he could defend that statement just because that has always been the case. Is he trying to say that the rate of growth in Africa is exactly the same as the rate of growth in Scotland, because that would be a verifiably false statement to make.

He says the number of God's children being baptized is, quote, increasing in every region of the world, end quote.

Well, I, you know, I don't— again, we don't have access to the numbers, so I can't, you know, if I were dragged into a court of law, I can't disprove that because they don't release those numbers. They don't release, as far as I know, maybe they do. Do they release numbers of baptisms by region? Yes, they release total baptisms.

Right. So when you're doing these bishop reports and state president reports, so the state president meets with the bishops every 3 months, right? It's the, it's the, it's the bishop for all the bishops, right? And the bishops have to do reports. There's a whole series of reports. I understand that the reports have lengthened somewhat. And the stake president has to issue reports to, you know, the area authority 70. So all those hard numbers exist, you know, convert baptisms, child of record, number of people holding temple recommends, etc. There's a metric that the church measures, and it's all online now, by the way. So you put all the information in kind of what, obviously. And so the church has got the numbers. It does, right? And you know, a percentage of growth by convert, new convert baptisms, by stake, by ward, uh, in every region of every other church. It's just incredibly organized when it comes to the, the numbers internally. So I, it's just, I'm, I'm shocked that Elder Rasband, who's now head of the MTC, is saying, uh, the number of God's children baptized is increasing in every region of the world. It just isn't. It's just not. Unless they know something we don't. I don't know. Without the numbers, it's hard to say. Anyway.

Yeah, I, I would, I would disagree with that. I, we talked, we've talked about, uh, when we were talking about Elder Holland's legacy, if you recall, one of the things that Elder Holland is famous for saying is that the biggest problem that the church faces is growth. And he talked about specifically, we're creating más y menos, um, 3 to 5 stakes every week.

It's something like that. If you say that, sure.

Yeah. And, uh, and there are many people that sort of went through that and said, no, that isn't true. So, um, you know, I I mean, again, we don't know.

We don't know. We need the numbers. Okay, false narrative number 4. We've got, you know, 3 more to go. So he said here, new converts are not being retained. So he's saying, he's trying to debunk this false narrative, which claims that new converts are not being retained. He says here, new members actively participate after baptism in ways that are as high, if not higher, than any previous year. I mean, just think about that.

So who wrote this?

It's, uh, I mean, if he wrote this, he's incredibly smart, but I guess someone wrote, wrote that. I mean, I don't want to be disrespectful to him. He's a very smart guy. He probably wrote this himself. If not, someone helped him, but you can't, you can't challenge that. Just, just look at that. New members actively participate after baptism. Okay. In ways that are as high, if not higher than any previous year. I mean, how do you, again, phenomenological, how do you measure something like that, you know, they actively participate in a way that they, you know, in a higher way than they do before.

Yeah. Well, the only time I have ever seen, um, verifiable statistics was what, almost 40 years ago in Scotland. And they came from President Banks. I don't remember, know if you remember this zone conference, but I, it sticks out in my mind because it was so astonishing, uh, to see the numbers that he was talking about. And he, he essentially gave the percentage of retention numbers. Do you remember that? Mm-hmm. Um, so, so he said, look, um, he, he asked rhetorically, well, not rhetorically, but, but he asked saying, okay, which country in the world has the highest retention rate? And they defined retention rate by somebody who was still attending the church within a year of their baptism. And the highest country— and this is in 1987. This was one of the earliest zone conferences right after I'd come out. This was in Livingston. And he said the highest country is the United States and their retention rate is 24%. And I remember just kind of my eyes bugging out thinking, Only 24%, and that's the highest? And then he said, what country do you think has the lowest retention rate? And again, nobody knew. And he said, Japan. Japan's retention rate in 1987 was 2%, which is, you know, minuscule, which is one of the reasons why I brought Japan up earlier, because I've always thought about that and thinking, they're only retaining 2% of their converts. I can't imagine that the church is growing in any significant way. And he said Scotland is right in the middle. Scotland is at 12%. And he says, so our goal here is to increase the retention rate. And that is the only time any church leader has shared with me any kind of church-wide statistics. I don't know where President Banks got those statistics, but the fact that he was that he had access to them demonstrates that they exist and that they are shared with a certain group of people—mission presidents. President Banks wasn't a general authority yet, but he became a general authority not long after. But mission presidents apparently do have access to data like this. I would think that President Watson probably has access to data like this. And the, you know, if the data were really supportive of the idea that church growth is just going like gangbusters and that retention is just going like gangbusters, we would see those statistics. We see the statistics that make the church look good, and the statistic, the raw statistic of convert baptisms, given the amount of growth we're seeing in the developing world, that number makes the church look good. But when you say, okay, uh, Elder Rasband, we have more convert baptisms that we've ever had, well, that's great. And then you tell me, but that it's equal in every different mission field? Can I see those numbers, please? Mm-hmm. The fact that we can't see those numbers suggests that they don't make the church look nearly as good as the raw larger number.

Yeah, I, I think you've absolutely nailed it. You know that when you make these kind of statements, uh, in front of 900 missionaries and you can't back it up with numbers, that's a big red flag. And, and people like you and I, many others see that immediately. You know, we're not stupid. That's a problem. And to your point, when the numbers are real and there's real growth, we will see those numbers. I'm just looking at the, what appears to be the quote from Elder Holland that you made reference to earlier. And I think this is it. Elder Holland in a regional meeting a while back, he said this, he said, the church is growing in such a rate that it is creating double digits new stake creation every week of our lives, end quote. He says here that we are in the midst of incredible growth, staggering growth in the church. It's the single biggest problem we have. It's the best problem we could have, but the biggest. We are reeling under the implications of growth we have in this church. We could go further. We created 15 stakes. We'll be doing that every week, more or less. It might not be 15. The week before it was 12. I remember him saying that, James. Do you remember that? 8, um, or whatever, and it will be a little uneven. But the point is we're talking double-digit spikes every week, every week of our lives. I, I was extraordinary. I just, because it didn't seem to, uh, ring true with, you know, what I'm seeing in Europe and, um, and the UK anyway. So, uh, and, and Elder Rasband goes on to qualify what he means by participating, you know, in the church, which which they do, you know, by attending sacrament meeting, performing vicarious temple work, eventually making temple covenants. Hundreds of thousands are acting in faith after baptism to follow the Savior. So that's interesting. His first reference to hundreds of thousands. That's what he said. Hundreds of thousands are acting in faith after baptism to follow the Savior. Now that's the first time we've seen any reference to, uh, you know, numbers, you know, thousands. But he's talking about hundreds of thousands. Now, technically, clinically, what is hundreds of thousands numerically, would you say, in your mind?

Um, well, 100,001.

Is that fair?

Well, well, 100,001 wouldn't be hundreds of thousands. If it's hundreds of thousands plural, I think if you're being honest, it would have to be at least 200,000. I would agree.

Yeah, I would agree. So, you know, I mean, is it correct that hundreds of thousands are acting in faith? You know, it says they're after baptism, so that means hundreds of thousands are joining. And if they are, well, let's look at the numbers. Anyway, uh, it goes on. There's two more. Uh, false narrative number 5, and this is interesting. Uh, I'd love to get your view on this. More missionaries come home early than ever before. He said that's a false narrative. He says this, he says this, an overwhelming majority of missionaries are completing their service to the Lord Jesus Christ. This includes teaching missionaries who, due to physical or emotional health, transfer to a service missionary assignment to finish their mission. Elder Rasman goes on to say he also expressed gratitude for missionaries who complete their missions. He said, remember, the call from our prophet is to serve 2 years for our elders and 18 months, uh, for our sisters. Thank you for your willingness to serve. But going back to the, uh, his efforts to try to, uh, debunk, um, this false narrative, he says here, this is here, more missionaries come home early than ever before. What do you think about that?

Okay, can you see the sleight of hand in that one? Yep. Because he says, all right, I'm going to debunk this narrative, and the way he debunks it is not saying, giving us the kind of numbers that would specifically debunk it. If, you know, 100 missionaries a year, I mean, and these numbers have no grounding in reality, they're just easy numbers to, they're nice round numbers to be able to wrap our brains around for purposes of the discussion. But if 100 missionaries, um, came home early last year, and this year 95 missionaries came home early, then that would debunk the idea that more missionaries are coming home early than ever before. Even if it's a slight number, you know, that would debunk that specific claim. But the counterclaim that Elder Rasband offers is not a measurable number. What he says is that the overwhelming number of missionaries finish their service, which is a different metric. It's not the same metric. When we were missionaries in— and correct me if I'm wrong on this— But the stigma attached to going home early was unbelievably massive. Oh yeah.

Am I right on that? 100%. I, I, I just on that, I, my first 2 weeks I hated it. It was that I, you know, I'd left my girlfriend, I'd left my great job, um, my music, my life. I, I'd, I was English. Scottish, the Scots don't, some of the Scots don't like English. The first 2 weeks was absolutely, I felt I'd made the biggest mistake in my life and I've talked about this on a previous podcast, but notwithstanding all of that, and it was absolute hell, freezing cold, rejection, no one interested. I'm like, I'm wasting my time. It was rejection after rejection after rejection, 10, you know, 11 hours a day in the rain. It was brutal. However, the thing that kept me out in those first few weeks, there's no way, not a chance in hell that I was going to go back home early. I said to my companion, and I meant this, I'd rather die. And I didn't grow up in the church, right? You grew up in the church. So immense pressure on, uh, missionaries who have been gone through the entire cultural experience from, you know, primary, right? And been taught to go on a full-time mission. And that's the biggest goal that you can do, uh, you know, other than getting married. But anyway, um, there's no way I was going to go back and be a failure. I would have died first. So that, what you said is absolutely true. Yeah, that's the last thing you do, right? You don't go home. The pressure was intense.

Well, so I, um, was longer than 2 weeks. I look back on it now and I look back at my whole life and it, this isn't just a spiritual issue. I have dealt with medical depression for the vast majority of my life, uh, and continue to deal with it to some degree. I think I've got it under control. I've got it manageable. And when I was serving as a missionary, that really wasn't, you know, even if I had somehow said or gotten some kind of diagnosis, there wasn't any sort of tools available to help a missionary struggling with depression. So, So that said, I had fantasies of escaping my mission. And I knew, for instance, that President Banks was holding my passport. And so I didn't— I couldn't leave the country legally. And rather than confront President Banks, I had these wild fantasies and they were just fantasies, but of, you know, escaping by foot and then going through Russia and crossing over to Alaska on a land bridge. I mean, it's ridiculous. And so, of course, I was never, ever anywhere close to doing anything like that. But my point is, those ridiculous, absurd fantasies of escaping my mission. And the idea was that I would probably just go to New York and try to make it as an actor and assume a new name and a new identity and never see my family again and just be this entirely new person. That was preferable to me than the shame and the disgrace of going home early. Yeah. Of saying, I got to go home and I'm going to be a missionary that went home early. I mean, I just could not conceive of just what, what shame that was. And I didn't know, Ian, I didn't know a single missionary growing up who came home early. Not one, not a single one. I don't remember any time in my ward or in my stake, uh, even whispers of somebody coming home early. It was just not something you did. It was not acceptable. And fade out, fade in. Well, this is 15 years ago. This is when I was serving in a bishopric. Roughly half of the missionaries that we sent out when I was at a bishopric came home early, and they came and talked to us about it. Some of them came home for health reasons, but by health reasons, They were talking about mental health. They were talking about depression. Those who came home for health reasons. I mean, there were some others who came home for other medical reasons and got, including the bishop's son. He had a, he had a medical, uh, issue. He came home from his mission, uh, went and got surgery and then went back to his mission. So he wasn't really coming home early, but there were people who came home early because they were depressed. And I would have— and, and those who came home early for depression were given honorable releases. They were, oh, you've come home for health reasons. And so that's no problem. And you have an honorable release. Others came home for non-honorable releases. You know, they came home because they were unresolved. I remember one missionary we sent him out, and then it was about 3 weeks later, we drove— I drove into the church parking lot and saw this missionary getting out of his car. And I— this was a very insensitive thing to say, but I looked at him and I went, what are you doing here? He'd come home because he had had some issues. It wasn't a health problem and he'd come home early. But so I don't know, to give Elder Rasband a benefit of the doubt here, maybe he's measuring this against much more recent statistics. So for instance, everything I'm telling you comes from 15 years ago. And I have not seen the same kind of attrition recently. But I also, frankly, don't see as many young men going out on missions. A lot more— a lot— it's a lot more acceptable, really, for young men to say, no, thanks. And it's not that they're— they even go inactive or they leave the church. They just say, no, I don't. I don't want to go on a mission. And again, that was, that was a, I had seen that growing up, uh, but I sort of looked down my nose at it. I thought, oh, well, there's something wrong. You're up. You're not righteous. Uh, you know, of all the judgmentalism, I just look back at myself and I, I want to go back in time and kick myself in the head. It's like, geez, Jim, you really did not have the kind of empathy and compassion you ought to have had when you were growing up. But that's entirely other story. So, so if you're comparing the numbers from now, from 2026 to say 2011, which is essentially the time frame I'm talking about, uh, if 2011 was the peak of missionaries coming home, then Elder Rasband is telling the truth when he says that there are not more missionaries coming home now than ever before, but there are certainly more missionaries coming home than came home, uh, during any time that we were growing up, and probably during the time before that as well, because that was not an acceptable thing to do. Now, the other sleight of hand in that statement, uh, and this is something that has happened in my ward, is he talks about people who come home but they fulfill their missionary service in a service mission. There's a missionary in our ward, for instance, that gave his homecoming, but he has been home for over a year because he came home after a year after struggling on his mission, and they reassigned him to a service mission, and he was allowed to live at home. And the service mission obviously was not the kind of all-enveloping sort of mission that we experience. He was living at home. I think he even had a job. Uh, you know, so he was, he was, you know, he was not serving the same kind of mission that we were not allowed to leave from. But Elder Rasband can say, well, but he is completing his mission and he's completing his mission service. And so. There's kind of an admission there that one of the ways we have stemmed the tide of huge numbers coming home is redefining what a mission is and counting people who come home and serve a service mission. Do you see that in that statement? Is that a, is that a fair evaluation of that statement? I do.

I do. As I listen to you, I'm thinking, you know, where does he measure it? What's the date points, right, that he's measuring. And if he's measuring from time, you know, like earlier when it was more obvious that people coming on early, and it's not happening as much now, and there's different reasons and there's different types of missions, you know, it's a very, um, not black and white anymore. Is, is, is quite a, um, varied way of, of, of measuring things. So I think he's, uh, again, without to, you need to know what you're measuring from, you know, A to B, and you need to know the time points, right? The date and time points. And so with the lack of detail, it's hard to know, you know, what he, you know, what he means. But I think, um, you know, if he's talking about, like you said, a time when there were more people coming home earlier and there's not, that's not happening so much now generally, then yeah, these he's, um, correct on that. The last narrative, Jim, uh, is this one. It's, um, that he's trying to debunk. Missionaries are not good enough and can't measure up. He says, uh, to training missionaries who don't feel good enough right now, Elder Rasband assured they are in good company. Uh, he said many leaders throughout church history felt inadequate to do such important work. He says that here, with all the energy of my soul, I share this truth. You, every one of you, can do this, he said. I testify that the Lord has a work for each of you to do. As you trust in him, he will make more out of you than you could have imagined. It reminds me of one of those, you know, those horoscopes, um, that you read it, right? And it fits. Every aspect of your life or certain parts of your life at this time. You know, today will be a challenge and people will come and ask you questions for advice. And, and, you know, I mean, that happens all the time, right? I mean, it's, that's the kind of, when I read that, that's the kind of general horoscope BS that, you know, we read. Um, I don't read stuff like that, but that's, um, we see in some of these, uh, these magazines and stuff. And, you know, Mishas are not good enough and can't measure up. Well, I can guarantee there are, there is many of those 900 Mishas that were there, it's in some way at some point haven't felt good enough, right? And felt at some point they can't measure up, certainly a sizable percentage. But what do you get from that when he's making those general horoscope type statements here. Missionaries are not gonna and can't measure up. Um, he's saying that's a false— he's trying to debunk that as a false narrative. What do you think about that?

Well, I think that's actually probably the best point he has here, right? Because, because that is something that I wish people had said to me when I was a missionary. And I think that's something that every missionary needs to hear because every missionary feels inadequate. Put. Every missionary is overwhelmed when they get out into the field. This is something that they've never done before. It's something unlike anything they have done before, and they are tasked with so much responsibility. And these missionaries are 18 years old back in the day. I mean, you were a little older, but back in the day, most missionaries were 19 years old when they went out. And it's the whole thing we've talked about repeatedly on this podcast about this idea of you are enough. And I don't think there's a missionary that goes out into the field that believes they are enough. And I think this is a very helpful message for Elder Rasband to be giving to young missionaries to tell them, you are enough. The Lord is pleased with your efforts. The Lord, you know, So that's the one debunking here that I think is sort of evergreen. I think every missionary needs to hear something like that. And so I am very pleased that Elder Rasband has said that. But you're right, it's not— there is sort of a horoscopy kind of element to it in that it applies to everyone. But in this case, I think that's a good thing because it does genuinely apply to everyone in a way that everyone, I think, needs to hear that. Wouldn't it? Would you have felt better if someone had told you that at the beginning of your mission? I would.

Would. Yeah, I think he's— I agree with you. I think he's— it's good that he said that. You know, we all felt that. I can't believe I got through those 2 years, frankly. I felt inadequate every day. You know, I wake up in the morning and I'm like, what, um, how am I going to get through the day? It was so, I think for me, Jim Bennett, it was the, the fact that no one was interested. Yeah. The vast majority of people I talked to, chatted with, uh, had conversations with, even the friendly, I know many friendly people in Scotland, um, that just kind of pass the time of day with us. They just weren't interested. And I just thought, I'm a complete waste of my time. And then after a while of no success, a day, right? A few hours. So you feel like, you know, what are you doing wrong? And under President Dunn, not President Banks, it was down to a lack of obedience, right? So he'd sit down with us and say, you know, the one-to-one interviews. And I was living with exactness, right? I really was. And, um, you know, we're working on a P-day, for goodness sake, and you weren't supposed to do that. President Dunn got, um, stripped down by Callosy AC, uh, when Callosy found out that President was making the initiatives work on a P-day. So we went above and beyond. But when I had my interview with President Dunn, the, the lack of, uh, the reason why I wasn't being successful, the reason I wasn't a successful missionary, Elder Wilkes, is that you'd probably be doing some things that you shouldn't be doing. I masturbating or, or maybe thinking about girls or, you know, just something that wasn't right in my life. And that's, and by the way, Elder Works, you, you know, by being disobedient, you are having an impact on the entire mission. You have an impact on your companionship, on your companion, on the district, on the zone. It's a team, right? So if I'm letting the, um, not doing things right, I'm letting the team down. Do you know how that makes you feel? Especially when you're, when it's not true. Sure. It's, well, yeah, you know, I mean, I think every missionary, you know, would, would, um, you know, would know how they feel on that. I mean, that's, that was my experience. So to come out and actually say that, you know, you are good enough and you're okay, I think it's, um, breath of fresh air compared to my experience, frankly. It's completely different. So I, I, I, yeah, there's a, there's a point there for you, Rasmus. So do you remember Elder Parsons?

I think his name was.

I do. And I'm actually in touch with him recently. Last week we've reconnected.

Oh, he was, he was so much fun. He was, had such a dry sense of humor and he was an Englishman like yourself. And he at one point was assigned to be a traveling elder, I think was the Do you remember that? They, they, they created this circumstance where there were these two elders that would just go to all the different zones. I was very jealous because I wanted to do that because I thought it would be a lot of fun to be able to travel like that throughout the whole country. But it was Elder Parsons and Elder Johnston, I think. Elder Johnston.

Yeah, I remember him. Yeah.

But, but Elder Parsons, I remember we were talking. And I've never forgotten this because I refused to accept it when he said this. But we were talking and I think it was my companion at the time, Elder Rose, I think it was, who said something like, well, we have done everything we can to prepare for you being here because we don't want to miss out on the blessings that will come if we live righteously. I'm totally butchering the paraphrase, but it was something along the lines of, we've been extra good, Elder Parsons, so we should have success. And Elder Parsons' response was, and I've never forgotten this, he says, well, why does that matter? It's not as if the Lord is going to deny the gospel to somebody because a missionary is a waster. And I remember hearing that, and I didn't, I didn't allow myself to believe it. It was, oh no, no, of course he will, of course he will. And not only will he deny a missionary success for that, but I will be held accountable. The Day of Judgment will come, and I will meet this person that I should have shared the gospel to and that would have accepted the gospel if I were just living better. And the fact that I had slipped up, he will stand to condemn me at the last day. I mean, saying that, verbalizing that, and I think that's one of the first first times I've ever verbalized that specific moment, but that just seems so ludicrous to me now. But that's exactly how I thought. That's the amount of guilt, the amount of shame, the amount of self-loathing that fueled my mission is just staggering. To me. And I, you know, I, I look back on my mission. We, we had my son Samuel on the podcast and he had a really difficult mission because he was diagnosed at one point with a condition known as scrupulosity, which is religious obsessive compulsive disorder. And it was fueled by his mission president. You know, there was an incident in the MTC. And I, I, I just for anybody who, I don't know if they remember this. I don't know if you remember this, uh, but there was an incident in the MTC that I don't want to get into that, uh, by, um, by association, my son Samuel was, was kind of implicated in it. And because he was living in the same bungalow as the people that were doing all these other things. And so was my, his twin brother who they were both going to different missions in Argentina. And when his twin brother went to Argentina, his mission president said, "Oh, you didn't do anything. Uh, get to work." When Sam went to Argentina, his mission president said, "You know, we've got to really decide whether or not you're worthy to be here and whether or not we should send you home. So you need to study all of these scriptures on repentance and report to me every stinking week and justify you being here. And this, this kind of destroyed him because my son Samuel is so scrupulous about doing the right thing. He's a great, great kid, great, great guy. He's in— now he's 24. I shouldn't call him a kid, almost 25. And he, but he internalized that and He was praying something like 20-something times a day. And he was, you know, just studying this. And this was during COVID so they had nothing else to do but study scriptures. And he was maniacally studying these scriptures and making notes. And he was never, ever, ever, ever, ever good enough. And that did so much damage. And when he came home, he came home in the midst of COVID And They were both reassigned to different missions, but he came to us and said, "I can't go back out. I can't do this. I can't face this again." And we got him into treatment, and he got to a point where he did actually go back out and he finished his mission. But, you know, this kind of stuff is stuff that when we were missionaries, you weren't allowed to even talk about this. This. You weren't even allowed to even consider the possibility that, uh, it was anything but you, you and your problem, that there was any justification for feelings of inadequacy, feelings of guilt, feelings of lousiness, other than the fact that you deserved to feel that way because you were not enough. And so I mean, if there's anything positive to take from this, I, uh, this talk by Elder Rasband, and I know that you, you are taking issue with it to a large degree, and I think justifiably in, in, in much of it. But if there's any missionary out there that hears Elder Rasband tell them, you know what, you can do this, you are good enough for this. You don't have to feel inadequate. You don't have to feel guilty. You don't have to feel awful about yourself. Uh, then I think it's a, a speech that was worth giving, or it's a, it's an article that was worth, uh, writing.

Yeah. Yeah. That's just incredibly valuable what you just shared. And as I listen intently to you, you know, on the mission, I, when you and I said missions, it's not changed with missions today. There is a, um, uh, numerical quantifiable metric that the mission president uses, you know, new convert, baptisms, et cetera, et cetera. The mission president got this, these metrics they have to report on. It's typically traditionally been numerical, but I wonder to Elder Rasband's point, if the mission presidents across the board, I suspect this is not the ca— not the case and not formal, or probably not in place, but should be. I wonder if the missionaries are being measured in other ways and not just numerically in terms of how many people, you know, coming, coming to the church. Because if you're measuring your worth and your value on numerical performance of how many people join, then in tough missions, you know, when you're in a mission and it's people joining, like in Africa all the time, well, those missions are going to feel completely different than if they're serving in Scotland, you know, where it's a tough mission. And if you're lucky, one will join in two years or you know, 2 if you, if it's a miracle, right? And if 1 stays in the church out of those 2, well, my goodness, that's, that's a miracle as well. So if we're attaching self-worth, self-esteem, and, and guilt and, and how we are valued on a personal level, you know, internalizing it, and we've been told that, hey, to be successful, missionally, you need to reach the, you know, this number. If that's all that's been measured, then that absolutely is dangerous. And we saw that, you and I saw that in Scotland. What, you know, when you get to, uh, when you've got the zone leader thing and AP, part of the remit in the zone leader calling changes somewhat from the other mistress. And you know this because the zone leader role isn't just, uh, traditional baptizing and knocking on doors. That's a big part of it. But the zone leader is in charge of his missionaries. He's got to look after his missionaries. So I had, and you have to have monthly interviews with the missionaries. And the missionaries in my zone, when I was the zone leader, especially when I was senior zone leader, they would open up to me and the struggles that they were going through was just, was just tragic. And I said, don't worry about the numbers, just do your best. Just be the best and love people, you know, have obviously tracked, obviously the numbers part of it, but just be the best, do service projects, connect with the members, go spend time with the members, and, you know, don't be so hung up about measuring, uh, the numbers. I remember when I had, I tried to have that conversation with President Dunn, who you didn't serve under, you served with Banks and, uh, Josephine McConkie, it was. But President Dunn, uh, measured numbers. It was just the numbers he was interested in. It was nothing else. And President Banks was like that to some extent. Not as much as, uh, well, the numbers was big with President Banks, but President Banks was more of a very good people person. Uh, he didn't formally measure, you know, relationships with missionaries, you know, in terms of how the missionaries were being effective in, in other ways. Um, I don't think from memory, but President Dunn did, and he wasn't bothered about— he didn't want them to have long dinner appointments. He said you need to be out there tracting and finding people to join the church. And he said within 20 minutes of having a dinner appointment, if the members haven't given you a referral, you need to leave. Uh, so it was all about numbers with President Dunn. Him and I didn't, uh, click, as you probably tell, and the missionaries, I, it's, you know, my experience with prison journey was absolutely brutal and I felt a complete failure because I wasn't having very many, you know, many, I wasn't having any success with people joining the church. Um, and therefore I felt a complete failure. I think in my entire mission, I think I baptized 9 people in 2 years in Scotland. And I think most of those people fell away.

And you kept them, and you remember the number because you're told you're not supposed to count them. And yet that's the number that— so my number was 14. Oh, wow. But I took credit for all these different people. I mean, 14 people that I taught, right? I mean, the number of people I physically baptized was, I think that it was 2. Um, uh, or maybe it's more than that. Oh, it was 3. I remember that. Uh, I don't think a single one of them is active. I, I, I, I, in fact, I'm pretty much 100% sure that not a single one of them is active.

Right. Only one of my 9 has stayed in the church. So if we can measuring Elder Wiltz based on that, you know, 9 people, 2 years, um, one still active, uh, I'm, you know, I failed, right? So I, I, I look back, by the way, I, you're braver than I am. You've got much more courage. You're talking about how you felt on mission, talking about depression. I struggle with stuff like that. I struggle talking about that, but I can tell you here right now, and, um, I mean, this won't surprise you, it might surprise others who listen to this, but they labeled me, or some people labeled me as some kind of rock on the mission. You know, not everyone, obviously. I'm not some kind of giant, you know, the spiritual giant by any means, not making such a claim. But I, there are people that described me as a rock, you know, cuz I was, you know, focused. I was obedient. I did all the right things. Said all the right things, but underneath, Jim, I was crumbling. I'm being honest. I was not a rock at all. I was struggling. You know, I had issues before I even went on a mission, self-esteem, self-worth, you know, from my childhood and dealing with all that. And somehow, some way, in a way that I can't understand or explain or work out, I was able to hide all that without going crazy, without going mad, without having a breakdown or some mental health crisis. But there were times, um, I, there were a couple nights I cried myself to sleep quietly, you know, when my companion was asleep. And because I felt such a failure, not just as a missionary, but as a human being because of, you know, the the past, you know, the background and wanted so desperately to be good at something, just one thing. And I was told, you know, Ian, if you go on a mission, that will be your legacy. That will be the greatest thing. And my mission was a legacy. It was successful in many, many ways. And I, there's so many great things that came out of that, but there was still so much that in terms of the numbers. And in other ways that I don't want to, not strong enough or courageous enough like you are to get into it in terms of depression. I felt a complete failure on a mission. So for Elder Rasband to mention that, yeah, I think it's good. I think it's really important to remind missionaries that they are incredibly wonderful people. These are young men and women who are extraordinary. I mean, to go on a mission, I mean, it's very different now, Jim Bennett, isn't it, compared to when you and I were going out? There, all these issues that you and I came across on the doorstep that we've got, hey, and you know, anti-Mormon, I'm not worried about that. Yeah, I heard about that. It's anti-Mormon, etc. And we kind of followed the, that dominant narrative. Now with the internet and going online and trying to recruit people online and trying to manage all the digital world. And now you've got AI. Yeah, I wonder, I've got a question for you here. And then we kind of wrap it up in a few minutes. But What have you heard about AI and missionary work? Have you heard anything along those lines? Because I'm hearing stuff that the church is using AI online to bring people to the missionaries. So, you know, God— someone told me over the weekend that God is behind AI and he has inspired mankind to develop this technology. And the church is now using AI. I mean, that doesn't advise me to accelerate, or in Elder Rasband's word, hasten the work. What have you heard about AI in the context of the missionary effort, the current missionary effort, if anything?

Nothing. I've seen the church's handbook revisions on AI, and I'm sort of mindful of those because I'm embracing AI. I think AI is wonderful, and I've obviously produced all these goofy little videos for this podcast. I'm also, uh, releasing all of the songs I've written, uh, because AI gives me an opportunity to be able to create professional sounding recordings of them and to create compelling videos of them. And I can do that all myself, and I've never been able to do that. So I love it. But I am mindful of the fact that a lot of people in the church particularly are sort of unnerved by it. And, you know, for our last livestream, I created a video of Boyd K. Packer, and our intro video for our livestream right now is Bruce R. McConkie, and it's all AI. I just, you know, take a video of them and lip sync an AI-produced reproduction of their voice. And I did that. I did one of those initially right after President Oaks became president of the church. And I had Gary, you know, Gary Stevenson, when he introduced President Oaks, called him Dallas H. Oaks. And it was kind of funny. And so I used AI and I showed that snippet and then I AI'd Gary Stevens saying, "That's right, I said Dallas H. Oaks. This is proof that we're not infallible." And I thought that was a very gentle kind of silly thing. And I got a message from a guy I grew up with in my ward in California who said, "How dare you attack the Brethren like that? Wow, that was so offensive." And how, you know, and so I'm sure there are people And that's one of the reasons why in this last Boyd K. Packer video, I had him say, I'm not really Boyd K. Packer. I am an AI-generated animation. I don't want people to think that I'm trying to fool anybody. I'm trying to poke fun in a very gentle kind of way. And I think the church is very sensitive about that. And, and, and so I, but. I would be very surprised if the church is not using AI for a number of things, and I'd be very surprised if missionaries are not using AI for a number of things. I mean, it's so easy. Missionaries spend a lot of their time following up leads and, and different sort of investigators and sending out emails. And, you know, AI is really helpful for that kind of busywork. You know, that an AI, it's like, write, write a response to this guy saying we'll see him. I mean, I don't see anything wrong with that, but maybe some other folks do. But of course the church is using AI. Everybody is going to be using AI. It's just a question of what are the guardrails and what are the boundaries?

Yeah, just, just on that, this is what I've heard recently over the weekend. Main threads of thinking on AI for the church, that the church is using these tools, developing these tools to try to hasten the work to Elder Aspen's point, you know, having these technologies where you can have an avatar and you can create something and deliver this wonderful message and you can have all these different conversations going on through AI avatars, having the conversation and having it through AI. So, you know, first off, you're avatar right now, I could have a conversation with you, just like I'm having a conversation with a real, with the real Jim Bennett, right? Could be Jim Bennett AI avatar and identical similar conversations based on you and your testimony, etc. So I'm hearing the church look at AI and kind of personalizing AI through these technologies. The other side of that two-edged sword is what I'm hearing is that the church is concerned that the main narrative, you know, the doctrine, the policies, the, you know, the main, the guidelines, there are these, these guide rails that you're talking about. The church is trying to wrestle with how does that, you know, hastening the work and the need to move forward and use these technologies, how do they keep that within, within the bounds, within those parameters that it's safe and not, you know, uh, leading people in a direction that There's, uh, information that is true, uh, but not useful to Elder Packer's, uh, you know, famous, uh, comments there. So they're the two main, uh, what I've heard at least, there's probably others, but two main, uh, areas of thinking of concern. How do they use, uh, this AI technology to advance, accelerate the missionary effort and the work, et cetera. That makes sense, you know, developing that. But again, how do they do it, you know, within that, um, that, uh, well, you use the right word, the guardrails that people are not going off and finding stuff that is either is false or is true, but not helpful. So interesting to see where the church is going on that.

All right. Well, I think this has been a fascinating discussion. Uh, I thank you for, for bringing it up. This is not something that was on my radar, and I think it's something that is worth discussing. And I think that the church, you know, the church, I used to say that the church was in the middle of a radical realignment of the missionary program without even realizing it. And I think the church is beginning to realize it. And we're seeing missionaries now sort of focusing more on online efforts rather than in the kind of tracting waste of time that we did. And the church is making that shift. The church is sort of learning how to do that and is, is developing the tools to do that effectively. And I think that's entirely appropriate, and I think that's entirely positive, and I think there's much positive to be taken from Elder Rasband's remarks here. But I also think it would be far more positive if we could have the hard conversations, because we're not having hard conversations about the challenges of retention, the challenges of new member baptisms in the developed world, not just the developing world. And I don't think we're doing anybody any favors with the kind of sleight of hand that that we see in these remarks, because I think they're defensible. I don't think he's, you know, just out there lying. But I do think that there is more— there are hard conversations that he is avoiding with how he has phrased all of that, if that makes any sense. So, but I very much appreciate this discussion. Do you have any final words before we close?

No, I just really enjoyed having this personal time with you. I've missed it. And I really, I really have. And I just, I always learned so much from you. I'm very grateful for our friendship, our relationship. I'm so grateful that we created this podcast. Our goal is to help people learn. There's so many things that I get from this. I'm so grateful. And I've enjoyed this one-to-one time with you for sure.

Likewise, sir. This has been a delight. It really has been a lot of fun. Fun. So, so with that, we want to thank everybody who is listening. We appreciate you listening. We appreciate your participation. We have a very— should we announce who our very special guest is coming up this next?

You must announce it. Go ahead.

How many of you have heard of a guy named Jacob Hanson? Jacob Hanson will be joining us in our live stream I promise you that it's going to be a positive discussion, and we have welcomed him on. He has accepted the invitation, and I think what we will be talking about will in fact be positive. And so I'm kind of looking forward to this. Ian, this is, this is going to be your first time, at least online. You've had several conversations with Jacob of offline. But what do you predict for the Jacob Hanson livestream this Tuesday?

I predict that we're going to experience something that perhaps we haven't experienced before between Jim Bennett and Jacob Hansen, because I need help on something. There's a particular area of interest, a subject that I need help in, and I'll— I can say it right now, I need help to convince 17,000 evangelical Christians who claim or allege that the Mormon Church is not Christian. I object to that. I feel very strongly about that. I feel strongly that the church mostly is Christian, that the members are mostly Christian. There's no denying that from my perspective. And, uh, I want to have this conversation with you and Jacob to help me prepare a response to those allegations, those claims that the church is not Christian, because I believe firmly it is. I'm not in the church, but where the church is doing the right things and when it is fundamentally Christian, then I think that's worth defending. And I want to call upon the great wisdom of you both and the insight and a lively debate, conversation, to see how you both can help me respond to those allegations. So I think this is a, you know, we have two remarkable intelligent people, yourself and Jacob, coming on here. I have enormous respect for you, for you both. I don't know Jacob so well, but I've listened to him. I think he's a very smart guy in, in, in so many ways, and I'm looking forward to this conversation. And, and, and sure, we'll cover other topics where there might be some, uh, difference of views, and that's fine as well. So yeah, that's, that's the, you know, one of the main items that we're going to talk about is you know, is the Mormon Church a Christian church? And what does Jim Bennett think to that? And what does Jacob Hanson think to that? And I can't wait to get your, uh, your input on that.

All right. Hey, I, I, I was gonna just leave 'em wanting more, but, uh, you, you've outlined the whole, the, the whole thing and the, which is fine. I, so the tease that I'm going to leave you wanting more is that I said to Ian, and I think this is probably true, in the conversation on Tuesday, I may very well end up being the most apostate person in the discussion. And I will not tell you why, but I'll leave that as the sort of tantalizing thing. But you're absolutely right. Everybody thinks that I, I just wake up in the middle of the night screaming at Jacob Hanson. Jacob is in my mind, one of the most effective defenders of the faith when dealing with people outside the faith. I take issue with a lot of the things he's done when he attacks people in the church, and that's where he and I have crossed swords. But, you know, he went on Alex O'Connor and held his own with this remarkable atheist scholar in a way that I just think, I don't know if there's anybody else in the church who could have done better than he did on that occasion. So, so, uh, please join us on Tuesday. It's going to be fun, it's going to be exciting, uh, but it's also going to be good-natured. If you're, if you're coming to see Jim Bennett loses stack at Jacob Hanson, I think you'll probably be disappointed. Anyway, thank you all very much, uh, appreciate this time with all of you, appreciate course, this time with you, Ian, and we will look forward next time to visiting with you again on the next episode of Inside Out. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jim.