Patrick Kearon: Apostle

Hello and welcome to a very special edition of Inside Out, hot off the presses. I am here with my partner in crime, Mr. Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I'm doing very well today, Jim Bennett.

How are you? Well, I'm kind of over the moon at the moment. Minutes before we started recording this podcast, the news broke that the vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has been filled by Elder Patrick Kearon. And you will be pleased to know that Patrick Kearon is a fellow Brit. Apparently he was born in an area that you know well. It's called, where, what is it?

Carlisle.

Carlisle, Cumberland, England. Is that close to where you grew up?

Not too far. In North American terms, yes. It's maybe 100 miles away from where I grew up in West Yorkshire. Carlisle is in the Lake District in Cumberland. So it's a, it's the more of the industrial part of the commercial part of the Lake District. But it's, it's a nice town. It's a market town, tourism, just on the border there, just south of Gretna Green in Scotland. So just maybe half an hour before you head over the Scottish border.

Oh, okay. So he's almost a Scot.

He's half, he's 20 minutes from being a Scot at the speed of maybe 60 miles an hour.

Oh, okay. So sounds good. But one of the reasons I'm so excited is I know Elder Kieran. Elder Kieran was in our ward for a number of years. He wanted to move to an area that was close to the private school that they were going to put his children in. And we live within walking distance of that school. And so he came and was looking for a house here. Because he was assigned to be in an area presidency here. And he was here for about 3 years and then left for 7 years. And then he was assigned to Germany in an area presidency there and then came back. He wanted to come back to our ward and he came back and was here for another 3, 4 years. I know him. I know his wife, Jennifer, and his 3 beautiful daughters. He is just, you know, I've said many times I've had the opportunity to meet a number of General Authorities in person, and almost always there's a certain level of disappointment. Maybe it's because we hold these men up to such a high standard that, you know, these are the gods, the demigods that walk among us. And then you meet them in person and realize they're just people. Elder Kieran, when you see him, he's given some of the greatest talks in General Conference that I've heard ever. His talk— and I'm going to play an excerpt further into the podcast from his talk about refugees, which is just really the gold standard of how the church needs to reach out to people who are marginalized, who are struggling. Jim Bennett, he gave a prayer at a devotional. I thought it was a Christmas devotional, but I can't find it. It's not in the last few years, so it must have been somewhere else. But he gave a prayer that was better than any of the talks in the devotional where he talked about reaching out to the marginalized and the despised. And I thought, you know, you don't hear that kind of language from General Authorities very often, but he speaks about topics of compassion and topics of kindness. And it's so inspiring to hear him. And the great news is that when you meet him in person, he's even better than he is on the stand, that that's who he is. He is a genuinely kind, compassionate man. He is, I think, the perfect choice to fill that vacancy. He's exactly, I think, where the church needs to go, what the church needs to do. I could not be more thrilled. And on a personal level, you know, we got to know him. He came into our ward not long after my daughter had her skiing accident, which we've talked about here. You know, my daughter, when she was 14 years old, suffered a spinal cord injury that left her partially paralyzed from the waist down. And she was in the hospital as a result of that injury for about 6 weeks. I remember pulling up to the door of the hospital and there's Patrick Kearin looking kind of sheepish all by himself. And he says, look, I know we just moved into the ward, but we want to— want you to know we want to be as helpful as we possibly can. Jennifer, I think, was involved in the Young Women's organization, and so she brought a lot of young women there, and I think she was there more often than he was. But they reached out instantly and we didn't know them. But, and he was a General Authority. He had plenty of demands on his time, but he wanted very much to let us know that he had compassion for us and wanted to be helpful to us. And so I've always had a soft spot in my heart for him. Since then, and every time he speaks in conference, it's always inspiring. It's always uplifting. And it's just— he— I just look at this and go, you know, this renews my faith in the fact that the Lord's hand is in this church because Patrick Kearin represents the best of what this church has to offer. As evidence of that, I want to play for you just a piece of his conference talk that he gave on refugees. It's a talk called Refuge from the Storm, and this was given in 2016. And it, it's important to note that the timing of this talk, this is in the heart of the Syrian civil war, which is a huge issue in the presidential election that was going on. And Donald Trump is telling everybody at this time that we're gonna seal the border off to Muslims. He wanted a complete ban on all immigration from Muslims into the United States. And so this was a really hot topic at the time. And usually conference is not a place where leaders discuss hot topics. They discuss generalities. They're not specific. They don't address any of these things. And Elder Kieran was having none of that. I mean, in this talk, he comes as close, I think, to calling out Donald Trump and politics as I think he'd be allowed to do. He says at one point there are high-charged arguments in governments.— and across society regarding what the definition of a refugee is and what should be done to assist the refugees, my remarks are not intended in any way to form part of that heated discussion nor to comment on immigration policy, but rather to focus on the people who have been driven from their homes and their countries by wars that they had no hand in starting. And, you know, I look at that In, in the 2016 election, all of the governors, the Republican governors of the United States, said that they wanted no refugees in their state, with one exception, and that was Governor Gary Herbert of the state of Utah. You know, Latter-day Saints have always sort of had a soft spot for refugees, and Elder Kieran recognizes that and ties that into— he takes it beyond politics and ties it into a religious and spiritual component that is really inspiring. So here, I'm going to play this for you here.

The Savior knows how it feels to be a refugee. He was one. As a child, Jesus and his family fled to Egypt. To escape the murderous swords of Herod. And at various points in his ministry, he found himself threatened and his life in danger, ultimately submitting to the designs of evil men who had plotted his death. Perhaps then it is all the more remarkable to us that he repeatedly taught us to love one another, to love as he loves, to love our neighbor as ourselves. Truly pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to look to the poor and the needy and administer to their relief, that they shall not suffer.

You know, and we've talked on this podcast about the reality that the best thing the church could do in order to keep people in the church, in order to make a difference in the world, is to focus on the kind of humanitarian approach that will have practical benefits in people's lives. And I can think of no finer advocate for that approach than Patrick Kieran. That's his approach in this entire talk. That's been his approach in his entire ministry. As he's spoken, not just in conference but in our ward. These are the themes he continually comes back to: reaching out to the marginalized, reaching out to the poor and the needy, lifting them up in practical ways. In this talk, he talks about visiting refugees in refugee camps all over the world. And at one point, I I actually, I called Elder Kieran because I had a grant from the United Nations. I know Elder— my elder, Senator Mike Lee, is trying to pull the United States out of the United Nations right now because it's this wild Marxist thing. But I got a contract from the United Nations, a grant from the United Nations to write about issues of refugees and humanitarian problems all across the world and put those articles in what they called red state newspapers. That is, newspapers that are in predominantly Republican states. And Elder Kieran was very helpful in steering me towards the information necessary to understand what needed to be done politically in the world, but also what the church was doing. He gave me the number of the head of humanitarian efforts in the church, and I had a long conversation with him. But this is Elder Kieran's focus, which, which gives me great hope that this becomes one of the, the church's primary focuses. I don't think that they would call Elder Kieran without understanding what that means in terms of the impact it could have across the world., and I have heard nothing but positive things about this call. Everybody who knows Elder Kieran adores him. It's, it's not us. And, uh, even people who have left the church who know him think this is probably the best call the church could have possibly made. And so I, I am really over the moon. And I, I, I've also, uh, uh, the Salt Lake Tribune has reached out to me and, uh, I've I've told the story of Elder Kieran visiting my daughter in the hospital, and I think that's going to be part of a news article coming out forward. But I think it's great that we're getting the jump on this because I'm going to put this out as soon as we finish recording. And I just think this is a good day for the church. And I think, you know, my sister asked, okay, well, why are they releasing this now? Because usually The church holds this information until General Conference. And I think maybe this is a little cynical, but the church has been hit with a lot of bad news lately. We're coming off of the Tim Ballard debacle, and we were going to talk about the AP story with regard to hush money given to sexual abuse victims and all that kind of stuff. And I Still think we need to talk about that. But I think the church knew that the news of Elder Kieran's calling would be something that would unify members of the church and give the church some good PR at a moment when I think it desperately needs it. Is that too cynical a take?

No, no, it's not. Not at all. I think We, you know, the focus of the podcast here, one of our key themes is to look at all the good that the church does, you know, it does extraordinary good, and look at the quality of leadership that it does have in abundance in many areas. And I think this is, you know, calling an apostle is a significant process.— it's thorough, it's detailed, it's discussion after discussion. It's— it takes years to plan and forecast and really think about the leadership qualities that the church is looking for, looking to attract and develop and, and build so it maintains its leadership qualities into the future.. We've seen leaders who have been called who lack certain qualities of leadership. You and I have had our own experience with such individuals. You've referenced that earlier. And, and of course, there are other examples like Elder Kieran who demonstrate extraordinary leadership and personal qualities. The process is extraordinary to call an apostle, and although we're not privy to all of the details, there's a lot of prayer and thought, a lot of discussion background, history, etc. And, and, you know, what's the political positions and opinions of Ilda Kiran? I think that they do go into great detail, a very detailed, thorough screening, if you like, of individuals. I think there are probably other people like Ilda Kiran that are in the sidelines who they considered. I don't think Ilda Kiran would— was the only one. Usually there's almost always several candidates for these. Well, every calling that I've known, there's always been several candidates, but he's the pick of the crop for sure. I've heard a couple of his talks. I'm impressed. I don't know him on a personal level, but you can be assured that the research and the diligence and the pre-diligence that the church got into to assessing this individual for the calling of the holy apostleship has been extremely thorough. And I, to that point, that gives me, based on your experience with him, which is really important, that personal experience is so important. If he is an individual who's, as you described, more inclusive, thoughtful, more open, more susceptible to change, perhaps less hardline than people like Elder Oaks on certain issues like LGBTQ, etc., and other issues, and is more inclusive, more community-focused, then yes, it gives someone like me who's on the outside encouragement and hope for those, you know, for the church in the future. The other thing that you highlighted as well in regard to his talk, he's seemingly unafraid to talk about the issues of the day. And one issue I always had with the church is all these major problems that happen almost are always happening, certainly right now with, with Ukraine war, what's happening in Israel, what's happening with migration, geopolitics, the economy. The world is facing extraordinary challenges, major issues of the day.. And it seems like this individual is unafraid to address some of the issues. I think he's an extremely articulate, intelligent individual. Of course, his talks will get screened and vetted before he delivers a talk, but I think it's, I hope this is the beginning of a new stage where the church takes a position on certain things. I've, for one, I've never had a problem with the church taking a a position on certain issues in politics. And me personally, I've never had a problem with that. And issues of the day like migration, which I think is really, really important. I think there's some fine lines there, some boundaries that the church has to be very careful about. But I think the church has a unique and distinct responsibility, Jim Bennett, to speak up on certain issues and to address them head on, frankly, directly, respectfully, and meaningfully and in a very factual basis. And I think Elder Kearon has done that or attempted to do that on refugee and migrants, et cetera. And I would like to see, personally, I'd like to see more of that, the church taking a bold stance on certain things. And, you know, it professes to be the only true church on the earth and the mouthpiece of God. And I think we, I personally would like to know more about the position of the church and what God thinks on certain issues. And Elder Kieran has done that in that talk. He's referenced the migration to the story and life of Jesus, and that Jesus was a refugee. He was, um, persecuted. And there are many people in the world who are going through this terrible ordeal, who are looking for a better life for them and their families. They see America— it's the same happening in, in, in Europe and, and, um, other parts of Asia where people are traveling in significant numbers to the border of France, and they are traveling in makeshift, almost always very unsafe vessels. There's a lot of tragedy around this, unfortunately, and they're crossing the Channel and they are entering the UK because they hope— they, they, they're looking for a better life. I think that's the story of, of most of these individuals. And And so this compassion, this kindness, this Christ-like position that Al-Aqirah has demonstrated in his personal life, showing up to support your family at the hospital speaks volumes. Not somebody that just talks from the pulpit and makes a great story. He's done this on a very personal level. And to your point, it gives someone like me greater hope and encouragement for the church. I think this is a really positive step by the church, and I hope that Elder Kearon will usher in the necessary changes and improvements that you and I have talked about quite a bit on a different— a number of different podcasts. And the church will be no doubt a better place because of people like Elder Kearon.

Well, I'm curious, with your background as an Englishman, does it— does it mean something to you that he's English, that he's not American, that he's not from Utah?

It does, actually. It does. I'm glad you raised that. So the church professes to be an international church, to, you know, it's his own culture, but to respect different cultures, different backgrounds, different people, different ethics, ethnicity, et cetera, rather. And Elder Kearon is British and Northern British, 'cause there's that distinction in the UK as well, is a northerner. And so I think the northerners will resonate with him for sure. I think everybody around the UK will resonate with him. I've heard that he is a strong advocate of building a temple in Scotland. And you know, the Scots have been trying to get a temple for as long as I can remember. And so maybe that's something that he could, he could develop. So to demonstrate we are an international church, then have a leadership comprising international people with different cultures, different countries, different backgrounds. You know, the relationship between the UK, you know, Britain and US, Canada, et cetera, is quite unique. It's quite distinct compared to maybe other relationships. A lot of similarities, but there's certainly some distinct differences. They say that, you know, three nations divided by a common language. There are different, you know, there's a difference between the British culture and the American culture, even though we, we're very related. We're a very close, we're sibling actually. I wouldn't describe it even as a cousin. We're actually siblings. I see it, at least I see it like that. So I think a message to the world that we're international church, it's important. I think it's a really good step from that perspective. I think a message to the Brits that, you know, the Brits can provide equally good, strong leadership in individuals like Elder Kiran. But the UK's got a long history in the Church. You know, some of the earliest buildings, Jim Bennett, and, you know, in the history of the Church, right at the very, very beginning, were for Woodrow. You know, right back to the very early stages of restoration of the church where the church saw, the church was struggling and it needed to build up its membership and secure its future. It had a very amazing, significant strategy of going to the UK and parts of Europe, but certainly in the UK and generated and baptized and acquired, I think around 100,000 new members who emigrated from the UK. It wasn't just for the church. I think there was political economic factors for sure. I think that's an important part of the story that the church could address more radically in those stories. But certainly there was a religious spiritual component probably the one of the primary ones is why so many people left the UK, Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales, England, left in huge numbers on the tall ships as they call them. And they left for a better world. And so there's a history of refugees in the history of the church where the Brits who were looking for a better life and felt they didn't have much of a future over there at that time. They came to the, the promised land, the New World, if you like. And so I think, uh, this is coming a bit of a full circle where you've now got a Brit who's an apostle. Uh, being a general authority is one thing as a Brit. I think being an apostle is different because ultimately, potentially, Elder Kearon would become a prophet of the church. He'd have a, a British prophet. I think the last time we had a British prophet was John Taylor, who was the, I think, was he the third prophet of the church at the time, or was he the third prophet?

Yeah, he was the third.

He was born in Hungerford in England, you know, way back, and he was an extraordinary leader in many ways. And I think that was the last time we had a Brit who was a prophet. So yeah, it will speak volumes to the Brits, to the world, and I think culturally and politically, I think it's a really positive strategic— again, without being too cynical, I think it's a, it's a spiritual move, very positive spiritual move on the church's part, to your point. And I agree with that. But also strategic in terms of his background. We talked earlier in the preparation, preparing for this, you know, hot off the press discussion with Al-Akir and And I asked you the question about what his business or commercial background was, and I think you found a link to that. And I think it'd be important to kind of highlight that. I think I've got the link here. He, his background, he was raised in the UK and in the Middle East, is a British and Irish national. That's interesting. And he's worked in a range of industries, including communication consulting, both in the UK and in Saudi Arabia. So it sounds like he's got commercial industrial, you know, business background. He's not a lawyer or a doctor, but he's got this business background. And so he brings those, you know, distinct skill sets from the business world into, into the, into the church. And I'm sure he's been very successful in his private life and his business life, and he can bring those qualities into the church. So overall, very positive, nothing negative. I've heard nothing negative about him. I don't know him personally, I've not met him. I probably know quite a few people in the UK that do know him, and I'm sure they speak highly of him as, as, uh, as you have. So overall, good move on probably every front, uh, you know, by the church.

Well, you know, it's really remarkable that I, I, you know, you talk about the UK and the reaction in the UK. My sister-in-law lives in the UK. She lives in a village outside of London called Godalming. If you've ever seen the movie The Holiday with Cameron Diaz and Jack Black, that was filmed in that village. And that village is in the stake apparently where Patrick Kearon was the stake president for a while. And they all speak glowingly about them. But my sister met him for the first time when her stake in California was being reorganized and Elder Kearon was the General Authority assigned to do that. And it was not long after my daughter's injury and they called in her husband to interview him about who the next stake president should be. You know, you know that process. They bring in everybody, all the leaders in the stake, and they ask them all these things. And, and somehow, I don't know, because my sister's last name is Provitt, not Bennett. But at some point, Elder Kieran made the connection. I think she saw that my sister was a Bennett. And he said, wait a minute, so are you related to Abby Bennett, who is my daughter? And my brother-in-law said that after he said, yes, I am, I'm her uncle, he said Patrick Kieran got very emotional. And the rest of the interview was very emotional and sort of hard to get through because he was so moved by my daughter's plight. And, you know, I mean, those kind of stories surface all over the place when you find out about this guy. But it's interesting to me that you would talk about the, the impact this will have on the British Saints, because you're right, the early Latter-day Saints, a vast majority of them were English converts. And, you know, we talked about that on the podcast as well, that so many members in Scotland are first-generation members, even though the church has been in Scotland longer than it's been in Utah. You know, the early missionaries went out and they got most of the early converts from the UK. And I, you know, I pulled this up. Charles Dickens wrote about in his story. I'm not sure what this is, but he wrote about seeing 800 immigrants who were on their way to the United States and watching them and listening to them. He called them— I should have said they were in their degree the pick and flower of England. And it turns out they were Mormons. 800 what? 800 Mormons is what he writes. Uh, I found them, uh, to the rout and overthrow of all my expectations, like what I now describe with scrupulous exactness. And he goes in to talk about how they are a very fine set of people. You know, all of those early converts came from the UK, and I imagine people walking across the plains and speaking with British accents as they did so. And when they got to Utah, you have a number of, of cities in Utah— Leeds, Utah, Hyde Park, Utah. These are all named after British cities. Sandy, Utah. There's where I live. There's a debate as to whether it's named after Sandy, England, or whether it's just named for its sandy soil. But I choose to think it's an English reference. But that connection, connection to the early days of the church, I think is very valuable. And we now have 3 members of the Quorum of the Twelve— Elder Uchtdorf from Germany, Elder Soares from Brazil, and now Elder Kearon from England— who are not American citizens. Well, maybe they are now, I don't know, they probably are American citizens, but they're not from the United States. They're certainly not from Utah. And provide that kind of an international perspective that I think is so necessary for the church going forward. And I remember a few years ago that there were 3 vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve. This was during President Monson's administration, and 3 members of the Twelve had died. And there was a lot of talk about, okay, are we going to get some diversity in the Twelve? And the answer was no. We got Elder Rasband, we got Elder Renlund, and we got Elder Stevenson, all of whom are from Utah. Hmm. You know, I'm an American, but from Utah.

Right.

And I remember all these people saying, this is such a missed opportunity. And before the general conference, when they were announced, I bumped into Patrick Kearon at the Salt Lake International Airport. And I said to him, you know, Moroni has come and visited me and told me that you're going to be one of the new apostles. No. And Elder Kearon just smiled and laughed and he said, well, you know, Moroni is talking out of school. Which I thought was a delightful thing for him to say. It's so fun because he has a marvelous sense of humor, which I think is essential. I, I think that we, we have had a number of humorless apostles and humorless general authorities and indeed humorless presidents of the church. I really miss Elder President Hinckley because he had such a delightful sense of humor. And I don't think that President Nelson can match that. I don't think that President Monson matched that. And Elder Kieran is just so witty and so brilliant and so not like what I am right now, which is He was so fluent with words, you know, he just always knows exactly the right thing to say. It's always on the tip of his tongue. And I think that's just such a marvelous, marvelous thing. So I am— I can't praise this enough in terms of what I think it means and what I think it means for the future of the church. So I think the fact that Elder Kieran has an international perspective, I think brings a great deal of value. And you mentioned the possibility of his position on LGBTQ issues, and I have never discussed that with him. I've never had a conversation like that with him. I think my wife has had conversations with Jennifer Kieran, about a podcast that's no longer happening because one of them has— one of the two people doing the podcast has since left the church. It was a podcast called Beyond the Block, and Derek Knox was a gay member of the church, and it was a brilliant podcast, and it talked about the marginalized in Mormonism. And I remember my wife telling Jennifer Kieran she ought to listen to this podcast. And Jennifer Kieran said, "Oh, I'll check it out." I'm not sure if she ever did. I don't know what her position on it is. But my instinct tells me that Elder Kieran's instincts are inclusive. That Elder Kieran is looking for ways to be inclusive. Does that mean that he is going to spearhead a revolution in the church and have gay temple sealings? I can't go that far. I don't know. I mean, whenever I'm asked about those things, rather than say, oh, geez, I'm in favor of this specific action by the church, my response is I'm in favor of further light and knowledge because the light and knowledge we have now is not adequate to the task. And I would bet Elder Kieran would agree with that. And I would hope that Elder Kearon would find ways for greater inclusion in the church and for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters and for the women in the church. I don't know if this has made its way to the UK, but there was a Salt Lake Tribune article recently about the fact that in the Bay Area around San Francisco, uh, for decades women had been sitting on the stand alongside the men. A Relief Society president would sit on the stand, or they would rotate women that would come sit on the stand. Sometimes it would be the Young Women president, sometimes it would be the Primary president, but there would always be a female presence on the stand along with the bishopric, just you know, as an act of inclusion. And the area presidency shut that down and demanded that they no longer do that. And the only, um, the only reason they gave for it is that there needs to be uniformity in how the church presents itself, and that this is a lack of uniformity. I listened to a podcast where two of the women that were involved in that were talking about their experience and how heartbreaking it was because they had the experience of being on the stand. One of them was a Relief Society president, and she said, I understand one of the reasons why bishops are on the stand is you can look out over the congregation and you can see everybody, and you're reminded of who's struggling, who needs help, what you can do, and you get inspiration when you're sitting there watching the congregation. You probably had that experience. When you've been a bishop and in a stake presidency. And, and to have that sort of shut down without any really concrete reason for why it's happening, uh, was heartbreaking to these women. And, you know, so there is so much more that we need to do in terms of inclusion, and the church has taken so many steps recently, like within the last, last few months, that have been largely disastrous. This is one of them. You know, this, this idea of kicking women off the stand, but also the whole issue that we're going to have to talk about an entire podcast, but of silencing victims of sexual assault and even paying up to $300,000 using church funds, and they'll argue that it's not tithing funds, but all church funds to some degree began as tithing funds. I don't know at what point where you invest them where they no longer have that kind of sacred nature that a tithing dollar ought to have. But you're seeing all these things. And then, of course, we've talked at length about the Tim Ballard debacle, which has just been a huge black eye for the church in recent days. And so you're looking at all of that. It's easy, I think, to become discouraged, to start to think, oh, church's best days are behind it. We're just in this sort of inevitable spiral because we're— we keep falling down when we ought to be standing up. We keep making these mistakes. And for this to come just out of the blue, to have Patrick Kiran in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, uh, just gave me a new breath of hope. It was just, oh, you know what, there is still tremendous possibility and tremendous potential in this church, and the hand of the Lord is still in this church despite all of our missteps, despite all of the mistakes that we make. The hand of the Lord is still here. And, and I, that's a, that's an awful lot to lay on the back of one man. You know, I feel almost, almost guilty about saying, okay, well, Patrick Kiran now embodies all of my hopes for the future of the church because Patrick Kiran, like the rest of us, is a man. Or, well, not all of us are men. But like 50% of us is a man. But he's, he's human. He's a mortal. A mortal, not immortal. And he is, he is going to make mistakes like the rest of us do. And he's not going to be perfect. And the day may come when I will be disappointed in him, although that day has not come in the years that I've known him. But it's, it's just It's just delightful to be able to be reminded of that. And I don't know if that does— I mean, you don't know Patrick Kieran, but do you have any sense of that in terms of your own kind?

Yeah, it's about that. Yeah, I listen to you. I think it's really important and valuable that we, you know, when decisions like this are made on such individuals, that we do have hope. That we do get excited, we do get enthusiastic. I think it's important to communicate that and express that. And I think people like Elder Karen do carry some of our hopes. You know, people on the outside like me and people who are struggling navigating their own faith crisis and people who are trying desperately to make it work, you know, inside the church. I think in many ways people like Elder Karen give encouragement and hope. That said, I think your other point there was really also equally appropriate, by tempering your enthusiasm somewhat appropriately and realistically, that we can't pin too many hopes on him. We have to be careful in terms of expectations, because in fact, one of my three points I was going to respond with was, yes, I think this is a really encouraging move, but as you know, as people get called to these callings, and, and, you know, there's other influences, major factors. He's a junior apostle. You know, he's in the lower six, if you like. And of course, he will have to toe the line, you know, the direction of the, the First Presidency. To my first point of the three is, yeah, I hope he brings some of that fresh thinking, new perspective, balanced leadership, if you like, into the— there's a balanced leadership model we use in business and it basically addresses, you know, some of the leadership factors in an organization and the contributions of leaders is really, really valuable. And I think he will make an influence. But at the same time, I don't think we can expect anything dramatic to happen early on. I think if he can position himself and advocate for some of these improvements and changes that you and I have talked about and others then I think that will be great. But I think it's important to keep our feet on the ground, be realistic, and not expect too much too soon, notwithstanding we hope for progress on certain issues. That's the first point. The second point that I thought was really amazing that you raised, actually, and I wasn't sure if you were going to talk about this, but when these— well, anyone gets called, there's almost always more, uh, time given to the man and often little time to the wife in terms of, you know, who she is and her qualities and background. And so I just want to ask you a little bit about what you know about Jennifer, but I want to just kind of insert my third point before you do that, because I want to keep things in sequence if we can in terms of the flow of the conversation. I think it's important that we talk about Jennifer's qualities, her qualities. You know, when you call an apostle, and I've been called on the stake presidency, and they do this as a bishop, there's a lot of screening and vetting on the, on the wife of the, of the husband. Uh, you're probably aware of that, that won't surprise you. So there'll be a process where, you know, uh, Sister Kim will have been interviewed repeatedly, I'm sure, for he to be an apostle of, uh, the wife of an apostle.

But I want to still, just my third point, that, um, would—

to the part where the Brits will really get excited about this. Uh, if, you know, if you look at the history of the church, um, and I, I repeat, I want to come back to, um, your thoughts on, uh, on Jennifer Kiran and your thoughts on, um, on, on the family and, and her qualities that she undoubtedly will bring in abundance to her responsibility, her calling, supporting her husband, and, and the qualities that she brings But the missionaries, they were sent by the church a long time ago in 19— sorry, 1837. And they arrived in Liverpool on the 19th of July, 1837. This is only 7 years, 7 years after the church was founded and only 10 years before the first Latter-day Saints pioneers would settle in Salt Lake City Valley in 1847. So there's a huge history there. And then 7 missionaries were sent, including 2 members of the Quorum of Twelve. And then hundreds joined the church after hearing the message in 1840. Those converts began to depart from Liverpool and other ports to join, to arrive back in, go back, sorry, go to America for the first time. There's a big history at the River Ribble near Preston where President Hinckley served his mission, by the way. He served in the Preston area in Lancashire, England, and E.B.C. Kimball baptized many of the first converts in England on July 30th, 1837, only 10 days after the arrival of the missionaries. There were 1,000 spectators watched the baptism on the banks of the river. And again, that was the, the, the onset of significant growth in the church where many people left and came to America. 1840, missionaries and Apostle Wilford Woodruff had a lot of success. And you had the John and Jane Benbow farm in Herefordshire. There's a lot of baptisms there that the church did, some videos there. So again, another example of a deep and long history between the church and the Brits. And then some more references on Wulford baptizing hundreds in the Hereford area. The Gadfield Elm Chapel was built by the United Brethren in 1836 and, and, and deeded to the church in 1840. And it was the first building to be owned by the church in England and one of the first chapels ever owned by the church, period, in the world. As a missionary to the British Isles, Brigham Young preached at Gadfield twice, once on May 17th, 1840, and once on December 14th, 1840. So Brigham Young has a history of the church in the UK. And again, if you look at the articles on the church website, there's a deep and long and very proud history between the very earliest developments and stages of the church and the Brits. So this will really resonate with the Brits on lots of different fronts and will— there'll be a lot of talks about this. I got a lot of friends of mine who are members of the church family who are bishops and they're serving senior callings in our family who are very active and will see those talks and references about Elder Kearon. It'll be announced, of course, you know, at the pulpit. Bishops will be required to announce the calling of Elder Kearon to new apostle. So there'll be a lot of excitement. A lot of joy and hope, you know, in the calling of Elder Kieran. So that is a really, really important development for the Brits. I just want to get your— go back to the second point. I just want to get your thoughts and feelings on, I think it's Jennifer, his wife. What is she like and what can you tell us about the family?

Well, the first thing is that I remember seeing her before speaking to her and assuming that she was British and she isn't. She's from California. So she's, she's very American. So that, that perspective might be different. I'm not, I'm not quite sure how they met. I think that's in the articles, but she is brilliant. I've heard her speak on a number of occasions. And I've had many interactions with her personally. She is, she is just as delightful as he is and every bit his equal intellectually and spiritually. And, and I think very supportive of this call because I think in some ways when a call like this comes, it's a call to the whole family. I mean, they're essentially lifting Elder Kieran out of the family to some degree. Because he's going to serve in this capacity until he dies, which is in some ways very cruel to do. And it's going to take him away from his family in a number of ways. And so the wife in these situations, I mean, it's a thankless, thankless job and it's a job. I mean, she has now been called to support him and to do so essentially in the shadows, in a supporting role. She doesn't get a leading role. He does. And in some ways that's very cruel because she is equally as capable as he is. And so it will be interesting to see, you know, hopefully I'll be able to have some kind of personal experience to be able to see personally what this does to her and to her family. She had— they have 3 children, 3 children living. They have 3 daughters and they lost a son. And I can't remember how old he was. He wasn't very old. He may have just been a newborn, but they lost a son early on and they've talked about that and the heartbreak of that and what, what that has done for them. I remember Elder Kieran giving a ward fireside talk about how he lost his father before he had joined the church and how devastating that was to him, and that he had no sort of faith in anything. He joined the church in 1987, and years later then he talked about the death of his son. And how that happened after he had joined the church and how much the church gave him a framework in order to be able to process that. And how that, you know, when we have faith, that informs loss and gives us the tools to deal with loss. You know, I've talked about when my daughter was injured, I leaned on that quote from Karl von Broderick that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not insurance against pain. It is resource in the event of pain. And that was very much his message, is that, you know, he has suffered a loss that to me is the most unspeakable kind of loss. I can't imagine losing a child., and he has gone through that experience. And the gospel of Jesus Christ was his resource in the event of that experience. So that the, the whole family are remarkable. The oldest daughter is the same age as my oldest daughter. The second oldest daughter is the same age as my second daughter. And their youngest, I think, is the same age as my youngest son. I'm trying to remember. But I had Jennifer Kieran in one of my Sunday school classes, and she's since gotten married recently. But the other two daughters are not married. So there you go. Just leave that out there. But all of them are really delightful. Although it was really interesting to see when they first moved into the ward, Um, the daughters sort of had English accents, very, very mild English accents. And I would, I would do my Scottish accent that they were not impressed with. They said, no, that's not very good.

No, no.

And, and then they left and they went to Germany and they were in Europe for 7 years. And when they, then when they came back after those 7 years, uh, all of a sudden the English accents had returned. They had faded over their time in the ward in America, but in Europe it had brought them back. So, you know, this is a magnificent family. Jennifer Kieran is a magnificent partner to Patrick Kieran, but it's the family, I think, that needs— is going to end up making tremendous sacrifices because they're essentially giving their father to the church.. And I'd like to see modification in that regard. I think that we demand too much of these men and demand too much of these men's families because, you know, but that, that's probably a whole other discussion. And I think we're out of time for today.

How old is he, Jim? What's his age?

He's 62.

Right. Okay. It's a little bit older than you and I.

A little bit older. I thought he was actually my age. I'm 55. When he was in the ward, I thought, oh, we're about the same age. I think Jennifer is younger. I think Jennifer is, is my age or younger. Uh, but I'm not sure. I'd have to look that up.

And how many kids does he have? How many children?

He has 3, 3 living, right? And, and the one son that had passed away. So, so, you know, I— it's a new day and it's the first day and there are going to be a lot more days after this. And some of them will not be necessarily as bright as this one seems to be to me. But I just can't say enough nice things about Patrick Kearin. I'm very thrilled to see him as the new apostle, and I will I watch with hope and we'll see what happens.

And I'm sure I speak for you and many other people when I say, Ella Karen, to you and your family, congratulations. You're clearly an extraordinary individual. We wish you the best. We love you and your family and hope this will be a meaningful and positive, it'll be challenging experience for sure, but hope it will be a very good experience and that you can bring some changes, some improvements to the church. And I'm sure I speak for Jim that we remain hopeful and we're encouraged and excited about this new calling for Elder Kieran and his family.

Well, thank you very much. We'll let that be the last word. And thank you all for listening. We hope to see you next time on Inside Out. Thank you, Ian.

Thank you, Jim Bennett.