Remembering M. Russell Ballard

Welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the podcast that takes a pragmatic look at the strengths and weaknesses of the Mormon faith. Joining me as always is my partner in crime, the man on the inside, the inevitable, Mr. Jim Bennett. Welcome, Jim.

Thank you, Ian. It's nice to be inevitable.

You are inevitable.

I wanted to be inevitable.

You're like Thanos. Great Thanos, always there. Significance, meaning, purposeful, on a mission.

There we go.

Good to see you. Excited about spending this time with you and looking forward to discussing this very interesting topic on all things or some things about Elder M. Russell Ballard.

Yes. Well, you know, it's been— I think it's been just over a week since his funeral, which I attended as a member of the Tabernacle Choir. And it was really interesting because the funeral was held in the Tabernacle and they rebuilt all of the red chairs and that whole structure that used to be in the Tabernacle prior to them moving to the Conference Center. And it was really bizarre just to see that. It was like a time warp. It looked like it did back in the '80s, and we were closer to the pulpit than we are in the Conference Center. You know, when we sing in the Tabernacle Choir in in General Conference, the brethren are fairly far removed from us. It's a big enough building. I mean, it's just such a huge building. But here, they were right there, and President Nelson did not attend, but President Oaks did and President Eyring did, and I was really struck by how frail they looked up close and personal, particularly President Eyring. He just really, really looked skin and bones, very little skin, lots of bones. President— yeah, he's now President Holland, who's the president of the Quorum of the Twelve, was in attendance. It's the first time he's publicly spoken since he was, you know, sidelined by his illness and also the death of his wife and mentioned both of those things in his talk. He He was the same old Elder Holland when he spoke, but getting him up to the pulpit was an arduous task. He had— he got up there before anybody else because it took him so long. He looked really frail, but when he spoke, it's like something turned on and he's like, okay, I got to go. And they scooted a stool underneath him to prop him up after he had stood up. I think he thought he could do it and he was starting to sort of waver and they, and they stuck a stool right underneath him. So he gave his talk. But the highlight of it for me actually was I was sitting in the stand and I was looking down and I saw an elderly woman on the first row and I went, that has to be Ann Kedington. Anne Kennington was married to Holbert Kennington, and they were a missionary couple in Livingston, Scotland, when I arrived in September of 1987. And they sort of became my surrogate parents in my greenie area. I was in Livingston for 5 months, and the Kenningtons were just delightful people. And Anne is Elder Ballard's sister, and I thought she had passed away. I didn't realize she was still alive. Her husband passed away many years ago. He was much older than she was. And I think— I know it was his second marriage. His wife had passed away, but I think it was her second marriage as well. And there was some weird little tension in that marriage that as a young missionary I tried to overlook. But I can remember one case She was trying to start the car and the car wouldn't start. And so her husband got in the car and turned the key and it started right away. And she said, well, what did you do? And he said, well, and you just don't have the priesthood. And we all laughed and she did not. She thought that was a really obnoxious thing to say. And she says, that's just a wee bit contentious. And we got very nervous there. So I don't know what the circumstances were there, but, but I loved and adored both of them. And it was a delight to see her, at least from a distance. And as I was walking back to the conference center, I saw her being propped up by one of her children. I mean, she's— I think she's older than Elder Ballard. So she's got to be— she's in her 90s and she's probably in her late 90s. She's a very elderly woman, but she still looks— she's recognizable. She's— I recognized her instantly and I was able to walk up to her and said, are you Ann Keddington? She said, I am. And she says, I'm Elder Bennett from Livingston, Scotland, 35 years ago. And big smile on her face. And we talked for a minute and she says, oh, that's been a long time. And But it was really a delight to see her again. So that's sort of my personal experience with the funeral. But we talked about the idea of discussing sort of Elder Ballard's life and his legacy. And I've got some stories there that, that date back to even before when Elder Ballard was an apostle, because Elder Ballard grew up in the same ward as my father and was actually my father's Sunday school teacher at one point. And they stayed close their entire lives. Elder Ballard spoke at my father's funeral, and my father actually, when he was on his deathbed, called Elder Ballard and said, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to die. And Elder Ballard said, don't worry, you don't have to do anything. Someone will come and get you, was what Elder Ballard said to him. And, you know, so they had a very positive relationship. I have had a couple of interactions with Elder Ballard personally that were not positive, and I think I've mentioned them on this podcast, but just to sort of recount them. I was a, a, an intern for Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming in 1994, and Elder Ballard came to Washington, D.C., to the Capitol Building in Washington and asked to hold a luncheon for all of the LDS staffers on Capitol Hill. There were probably about 100 of us who were members of the church who were working in various staffs, and we all got there And he spoke and then opened it up for a Q&A afterwards. And this was right after the Church had gotten involved. I don't think the proclamation on the family had come out yet. It was right before the proclamation, so it was early '95. So I think the proclamation was in October of '95. But there had just been a lawsuit to stop Hawaii from recognizing same-sex marriage, and the church had gotten involved in that lawsuit. And I thought I was asking a very innocuous question. My question was, uh, the church has gotten involved in this political issue in Hawaii. Does the church plan on getting involved in political issues across the world, or is this just America-centric? And Elder Ballard got visibly angry and said, "We never get involved. We never get involved in political issues. How dare you ask that question? We're only involved in moral issues." And he just dressed me down in front of everybody, people I didn't know. And I felt about 2 inches tall. And it was just an awful, awful experience. My other memory of Elder Ballard was when I was in the MTC. They filed us all into the Marriott Center for a big devotional that Elder Ballard was giving. And in the devotional, Elder Ballard announced that any missionary who isn't married within 6 months to a year of their mission is not honoring their priesthood. And I've said that to many people, and people are like, he never said that. And I'm like, you should have heard the ripple of, "Oh," that went through the entire Marriott Center when he said it. I have witnesses. And I, you know, I was just— I was 19 years old. I was just starting my mission. I was in the MTC, but it was a really awkward, strange thing to hear. So those are my two most prominent personal memories of Elder Ballard that are not positive. But you had an experience with Elder Ballard where he wouldn't allow a Q&A. Is that right?

Yeah, that's right. My time, my memory, and my experience with Elder Ballard goes back 35 years to the mission, actually before you arrived in the mission. So this is— I remember this very distinctly. This is July 1987, and it's the handover from President Dunn to President Banks. And, um, uh, President Dunn, um, President Banks was there, uh, President Dunn I believe was present, of course, and Richard Van Hager, who was the stake president of Edinburgh, if you remember Richard back then.

Oh yeah, I do.

Yeah, he's passed away, his, uh, President Van Hager, but, uh, yeah, he was a state president, wasn't he?

Wasn't he kind of controversial?

He could be quite controversial. Yes. What a— yeah, quite inflexible at times. And I would— my experience with him was very positive. But, you know, people's experience with him was mixed, I guess. You know, when you hear comments about people or opinions, it's, you know, it depends who you are, I guess, and what your experience with El-Balad. And so he— El-Balad came in and he presided over the reorganization of the missionaries. He called it, and this was July, and we were all assembled as missionaries, all of us. The entire mission was brought together in the Edinburgh Chapel, and Elder Ballard spoke for about an hour and a half at least, maybe a couple of hours, probably an hour and a half. And I, for some reason, well, I know the reason, I actually recorded the entire conversation, the entire meeting, and I've got it on one of those old tapes which I've not digitized yet, but I should because I think it contains quite a few nuggets. And so he talked about, I remember certain phrases, certain comments, and I remember him saying that he was a missionary in Scotland. He was in the British Mission and he had the opportunity of going to Princess Street and GQing on Princess Street. And he found it difficult, but he shared his stories where he used to stand up on a soapbox and preach off Princess Street with all the people passing. I remember it distinctly. We said that he was a missionary. So this is July '87, 39 years ago. I remember that. I remember thinking, oh my God, that's a long time ago. And that was back in, you know, back in '87. So I've got this recording of the conversation. It's very positive, it's very spiritual. He spoke about, um, President Dunn. And again, I remember certain distinct phrases and he said, you know, President Dunn was called, set apart to lead in the way, in a certain way that he did. And President Dunn was very, very strict, too strict in my opinion, very sergeant major approach to being a mission president. And very strong and quite loud and extremely, um, opinionated on lots of different things and difficult individual to get to know, to get close to. And they're not somebody you'd want to get on the wrong side. And Elder Ballard described Elder President Dunn's, uh, leadership as being, uh, very different to President Banks, he said. President Dunn did it his way. President— he said President Banks is not President Dunn, and President Banks will do what President Banks will do, and he will bring it— he said— I remember him saying he will bring his own, um, approach and experiences to the calling. And I thought, well, that, that was great. And so he really, uh, he acknowledged President Dunn's service. He spoke about President Banks as skills. And as we all know, well, the ones who served with President Dunn, uh, President Banks was a very, very different individual. President Banks was more people-focused, more spiritual, in my opinion, just an easier, um, friendlier, warmer individual. And, you know, we all fell in love with, with President Banks. My experience with President Dunn is, is not, not quite like that. And so President Elder Ballard spoke about the church and the church's mission. And at the end— and I've got the whole thing on record, I will digitize it— at the end, there was a series of— there was an opportunity to ask questions. And he said, you can ask me any question, as long as it's not about the geography and the Book of Mormon. And I thought that was quite odd, quite strange. Because I had studied a little bit of the geography, the Book of Mormon, the book, Um, I remember which, who wrote it, but there's a couple of books back then that wrote about the geography in the Book of Mormon. But as I pored into the Book of Mormon, I had this vision of where things were in Zarahemla, the narrow neck of the land, and, you know, the land of Nephi, et cetera. I had this, this, um, and I always liked geography at school. I always liked to know and understand where things were, where places were. So I always had an interest in that and that I hadn't anticipated that's gonna mean any questions about geography. But I was a bit surprised that he said he didn't ask me any questions apart from geography in the Book of Mormon. And then at the end, he met all the missionaries, and I felt, I mean, he must meet thousands of missionaries. I just felt he kind of looked through me when he shook my hand. He was, you know, I think when you're an apostle and we're looking up to the apostle, there was a, there's a little bit of superstardom worship, I think. And I think for me as well, I looked up to Elder Ballard and the apostles as being, oh, you know, a real apostle. They speak directly with Jesus Christ in person, literally. I just thought that was amazing. I remember having quite a profound experience, which I think was mostly made up of my excitement when Elder President Monson was a counselor at the time, and Nealey Maxwell came early. I think this was in, in, I think this was in May. Kālasī Āsi was the area authority, and I think President Monson and Nealey Maxwell came to the mission. I did a, I did a personal study morning with the Elder Maxwell, I remember. That's another story. But yeah, I think the whole restructuring, reorganization of the mission with Elder Ballard was successful. It went really well. A very pragmatic leader, and we're all in awe of Elder Ballard. And so that was, you know, that's my first experience of him going back, uh, you know, going back all those years. It was, it was positive. I thought he was an exceptional leader, and I was just bowled over by the fact that we were in the presence of an apostle. I thought it was quite extraordinary.

I remember feeling that when I met President Hunter near the end of my mission. He was, he was the president of the Quorum of the Twelve, and he came and spoke, and I got to go shake his hand, and I felt that same feeling of, oh, this is a, this is an apostle. He's seen Jesus. He's looking right through me. He can see all of my sins. You know, and I, you know, you said there's a little bit of that superstardom. I think there's a lot of that superstardom. And I think it's dangerous to some degree because the older I get, the more I continue to sustain these men as apostles, at the same time recognizing that they encounter God the same way I do. That I don't think they've seen Jesus face to face, because the apostles that have seen Jesus face to face make no bones about it. Joseph Smith would tell anybody anywhere about all of his, you know, supernatural experiences. And, you know, the fact that they don't speak of them at all, they try to cloak it in this idea of, oh, it's too sacred to talk about. And okay, I don't buy it. And I think the church would be better off and everybody's faith would be better off if we didn't have the temptation to worship these men, which I think is what it is. I think it's a temptation. I mean, we don't see Jesus, but we can see Elder Ballard And that's the next best thing. And so we're tempted to essentially worship him. And I think that's unhealthy. And, you know, when my father came to pick me up in Scotland, my parents came to pick me up at the end of Scotland and we drove all across the Scottish countryside and then we ended up driving down to, to York and then to London. And I can't remember if we drove or if we took a train. Doesn't matter. But Dad would tell me all these stories, and he prefaced them by saying, he said, look, God can cure any disease. He can treat hematomas. I remember him using the word hematoma. May have been the first time I'd ever heard it. And he can treat all these things. But he also tells us to go and go to doctors. And he doesn't choose to miraculously heal everybody in every circumstance. And we're supposed to rely on medicine. And he says it. And, and we, we forget that that same principle applies to missionary work. You know, God could appear to everybody and say, join the church, but instead he charges us to do it and he charges us to find the right way to do it because we grow in that experience. And when he was talking about that, he was talking about an experience he had with Elder Ballard before Elder Ballard was in the Twelve. He was a member of the Quorum of the Seventy. I don't know if he was in the presidency of the Seventy, but my father lived in Los Angeles, California, in the heart of the entertainment industry. And my uncle, who— a man named Howard Anderson, who was also— who later was the president of the Los Angeles Stake. And I lived with him and he was married to my, my mother's sister., and I lived with him in Bel Air, California. I was a fresh prince of Bel Air, uh, while I was going to the University of Southern California. And Howard and Madine Anderson were essentially my second parents. And, uh, they have both since passed away. But Howard, uh, was in the heart of the entertainment industry. He was a, um, movie executive for 20th Century Fox and had all these wonderful stories. I remember as a kid, we would go to his screening room and we would see movies before they came out, and we thought it was the coolest thing in the world. So Howard and my dad were very close throughout their lives, and Elder Ballard came to Howard and said, look, we need to figure out how to use the entertainment industry, how to use the media to do missionary work, to preach the gospel. And so Howard enlisted my dad in this committee, and I think there was one other guy that I can't remember, and I don't I think I knew, but there were 3 guys on this committee and they did some research and they came back to Elder Ballard and they said, okay, right now you're saying the message is, where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going after this life? And from the research we've done, those are not the questions people are asking. And Elder Ballard said, okay, well, what are they asking? And he says, they're asking, is this it? Is this all there is to life? Is there anything more? And I'm reminded of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry Seinfeld is thinking about getting married and he goes to Kramer and Kramer says, so you were asking yourself, is there something more to life? Jerry says, yes, yes, I was. And Kramer says, well, I've got news for you, Jerry. There isn't. It goes into this big thing about how being married is like being in prison. And anyway, that, that's a tangent. So they went back to Elder Ballard and they said, the question is, the people are asking is, isn't there something more to life? Is this all there is? And he said, the most powerful form of media that is most effective that would work in missionary work is a simple cassette tape. I mean, this is long before the internet, long before streaming. And he said, we want to record like middle-aged people in the church who have discovered the church and discovered something more to life as a result of the church. And they recorded a business executive, they recorded a housewife, and they recorded I think there were about 4 recordings. And they said, and this is a low-pressure way to do missionary work. Rather than say, hey, I want you to come to church, or hey, what do you know about the Mormons and do you want to know more? Say, hey, I have this tape of this guy that I thought you might be interested in. He's talking about, you know, there's something more to life. And they did a small pilot program with this that was successful. Enough to sort of ramp it up. And Elder Ballard was responsible for ramping it up. Problem is Elder Ballard completely changed it when he ramped it up. And, and my dad and my Uncle Howard were both like, why did you do this? Because what he did was he turned it into Bounce Back. Do you remember Bounce Back?

No, not at all.

It was this kind of, it was this cassette that was like, hey, If you're feeling down and your life's rough, bounce back. And it was this sort of self-help kind of thing that was very light on religious details, but it was just sort of this positive, hey, we can help you bounce back. And they did this as a large-scale church thing. They rolled it out to everybody. And then Elder Ballard came back to them a couple of years later and they said, We need your help. And he said, well, you didn't pay attention to us last time. Why? Why? What's wrong with Bounce Back? And Elder Ballard said, well, Bounce Back is very popular, but it doesn't lead to baptism. Nobody's getting baptized from Bounce Back. And so Dad and Howard both pitched again, what you need to do is have real people telling real stories, talking about how the church has improved their lives, and that's what you need to do. And Elder Ballard said, oh, okay, thank you, thank you, thank you very much, and went back. And then the next thing they unveiled was Our Heavenly Father's Plan, or Our Heavenly Father's Plan, which had that cassette thing, and you pass out cassettes, and then there was a video component to it. And while we were on our missions, that became Together Forever., and we would pass out cassettes and we would show the video, but it was a far cry from what my father and my Uncle Howard had recommended. And Dad, you know, so I, so while I was driving across Scotland for the week while they were out there picking me up for my mission, Dad was just lamenting, oh yeah, you were doing that? Well, you know, that was our idea, but Elder Ballard just didn't stick to the— I mean, they had research. They had spent a good deal of time. This was my father's primary calling for a couple of years. And they did extensive research that said, this is going to be the most effective way of missionary work. And Elder Ballard said, okay, great, thank you, and took it and turned it into something that it wasn't. And I don't think they, you know, in the age of screaming at anything, I don't think anybody does anything like this anymore. The church does anything like this anymore. But it was very interesting to me to hear my father talk about Elder Ballard in this kind of— they were colleagues, essentially, or he felt like they were colleagues. And when they got to— when my father was elected to the Senate, Elder Ballard became his contact in the Twelve, and they worked very closely on a number of things. And Dad had nothing bad to say about Elder Ballard and considered him a dear friend throughout his life. But it was just so interesting for me as a young, you know, recently completed missionary to hear how the sausage was made. You know, because when you're on your mission and out comes Together Forever, you're thinking, aha, these miraculous apostles have given us manna from heaven that will bring everybody into the church. And what you realize is there's all kinds of negotiating and all this stuff behind the scenes, and that Elder Ballard just wasn't taking my father's advice. So, uh, I mean, for your impressions of Elder Ballard, uh, I assume are probably colored by a lot of the controversy that's happened.

Uh, yeah, my, my, uh, perspective on him, my, uh, view of him has changed significantly. As I'm listening to you, I'm reminded of the meeting we had with him in July '87. As you know, Elder Ballard I think for almost his entire, uh, you know, life as an apostle, you know, authority, a big part of it ran the missionary program. He told us that in July '87 he was in charge of the missionary program, and he talked about his experience as a missionary. And he said at that time how, uh, limited success that we would have if we knocked on doors and do GQ. He gave some numbers that the the ratio of, you know, meeting somebody on the streets or knocking on the doors to getting baptized was, was very, very low. And the way to— excuse me— the way to be successful as a missionary is to generate referrals from the members, get close to the members, build the trust. You remember the Ye Are My Friends program?

Oh yeah. So Gary McNaughton, do you remember Gary McNaughton?

I know the name.

Oh, well, he was, he was on a mission. He anyway, and he's back on Facebook and he says he's listening to our podcast, so I'm calling him out. But Gary McNaughton was our ward mission leader in Drum Chapel and he called it the Betray Your Friends program.

Right. Well, you, my friends, I think came out before you came out on the mission. I thought it was amazing. It was working with families. You had a goal yet to achieve so many referrals. You work with families, meet with them, build the trust, get the names, and then start working with the family to teach the, the, teach the referrals. Um, I thought it was a great program. I didn't see a great deal of success in my experience. 2 years in Scotland, we generated very few referrals from members. I could probably count them on my hands and my feet over 2 years, but that was it. I think they were the two hands, actually. It was extremely difficult. Al-Balad spoke about the difficulty of missionary work in, uh, in, in July '87. And as you know, we would knock on doors for 10 hours a day. It was grueling. It was awful. It, it was extremely difficult, challenging, and, uh, not very productive. It was— I felt at times, most of the time, it was completely a waste of my time. The folks were not remotely interested in either religion or what they described as a cult. And if they were religious, they didn't have any time or respect or interest in the Mormon faith. They're going to be going to their own, you know, their own church. And so it was a very tough 2 years in Scotland at that time. And Elder Ballard spoke about that. And then fast forward, you know, when President Banks arrived and we'd had— there was a conversation going on with Matt Holland and Elder Sampson, the APs, and President Banks' conversation with Jack Gosland, who was the area authority or president at the time, and looking at ways and means to change the dynamics of mission work in Scotland, looking at the history and The very limited success in Scotland. So what could, what could we do differently? And at that time, over the following months, Chris Banks introduced the family questionnaire, which you're aware of. And around about that time, the Together Forever material came out, and we were invited as missionaries to see that for the first time. As I watched that, I think it was in the mission home. I was in Edinburgh at the time. I think I was serving in Edinburgh. So we came into the mission to watch it. And I had— it was a profound spiritual experience for me. I thought it was— the four stories there, I thought it was absolutely fantastic. I felt a tremendous spirit. And then Placid Banks asked at the end, um, here's a question. And I, in some ways, I wish he hadn't done this or asked this. He asked if we thought they were members of the church in the video or if they were actors. I was like, no, no, no, don't tell me they're actors. I don't, I, I didn't want to associate my spiritual experience with acting. And inside I was pleading with him, please, please don't tell me they're actors because no, I felt the spirit. These are real people. Anyway, he, uh, told us all they were actors. I was like, oh, you gotta be kidding me. And so I, I, I, I was very disappointed actually. In that, notwithstanding it had a profound spiritual experience. Anyway, regardless, I, and then he said, and I think I asked the question, how can we feel the spirit if they're acting? He says, well, it's the message. I was like, oh, I'm on board now. I'm back on board. I'm not going home anytime soon. Oh, that makes sense. That was so easy to, for me, I was so easy to please and convince. You could, as long as you give me a logical reason, you know, I'm fully back in the program. And so we had frankly more success with the family questionnaire on the doorstep, especially when we took a name tag off, which I never did, by the way.

I didn't either. And I thought it was dishonest all the time we were doing it. And we kept having zone conferences where they said it's not dishonest. And then finally, I don't know who it was, but there was a general authority that got wind of it and said, you can't do this.

Yeah, I think there's some articles in the paper. I can't remember which area it was, but people were getting in and there was a complaint. Some of the missions were even reported to the police. I had a couple of instances in— I think it was in Inverness. I was tracting with Elder President Hunter was the prophet. And I can't remember the AP. I was tracting with the— I was a zone leader at the time, and I was tracting with one of the APs. And I didn't— I refused to take my name my name tag off. And anyway, I don't think this person who let us in saw my name tag. We got into the home through the questionnaire. You could get into the house, actually. You remember, yeah, Prince Banks would say in the training with the questionnaire at the end, he would go straight through. Yes, you'd ask the questions.

Well, we should, we should probably recount what this was. Yes, we should, because, because I don't know that we've talked about this before on the podcast, but What it was was a questionnaire where we would say we're taking a survey about religion. And we had a series of, I think there are about 5 questions.

Yeah.

And we, and we had a clipboard.

Yeah.

You know, and we would mark down their answers and they would—

Our family's important to you kind of question.

Yeah. Our family's important to you. And, but then it sort of segued into what if there were a prophet on the earth today and that kind of thing. And then you just sort of launch into a first discussion. And people felt tricked because they were being tricked. We were not representing ourselves as missionaries. We were representing ourselves as surveyors, or, you know, we were conducting some kind of research. I mean, we didn't compile these answers anywhere. They were just an excuse to get in. And yeah, and straight through, that was— those were the magic words. It's like maybe come in Oh sure, okay, straight through. And you know, and then we go sit down in their living room and these guys are like, what have I done? Who are these idiots who I've let into my home?

I remember, I remember the questionnaire. I remember that, you know, I've got the questionnaire, by the way. I should pull it out and, and, um, share that. We discussed that. It's amazing. I found it very, uh, it was very effective. Most— well, we say very, it's all contextual, right? So knocking on doors all day and getting in once compared to say getting in 5 or 6. Now that's success, right? Uh, or 2 or 3, you know, that's amazing. So I, I found the, uh, so-called survey, uh, very effective. I did ask, and, and I do have it, and we should pull it out, we should review it, uh, another time. Sure. And I remember the straight through— if I used to have a bit of fun, I'd look at my companion and I would elevate sometimes the straight through deliberately. They would go straight through. I remember doing straight through in the tone of Truman Madsen. I'm like straight through like this. And so we had a little bit of fun like that. I shouldn't have been doing that, but it was just the buzzword. You'd go in there, you'd sit down. And I remember a few times, well, quite a lot of times the shock on people's faces once they found, holy cow, there's two Mormon missionaries now in their home, which they, uh, they had no idea, uh, that who we were or what we're about. Even though, you know, we had a— I had my name tag off. I refused to take my name tag off, but I was rebuked actually. I think I was rebuked by, um, one of the APs, and I had a little bit of a rebuke from President Banks in the Aberdeen Stake Building for not being, questioning about the authenticity of the questionnaire because we weren't surveying people. You know, there were responses, but we weren't making a note of them. And I asked, you know, what are we gonna do with the survey material? It's very, very useful, surely. And that, I can't remember the specifics, but I was shot down, not as probably hard as you with Elder Ballard, but I was, put in my place that, you know, this is— get with the program, uh, Elder Wilkes. This is, this is what we're doing now. I questioned it. I questioned the validity of it and was, uh, taken down, uh, in a nice way actually. But, you know, prison banks had this way of saying, um— if he ever said to you— he said this once to me, by the way, uh, Elder Wilkes, do you remember I took you all to the Isle of Skye?

You didn't take me. I think that was—

All right.

Well, I wanted to go, but I was groomed.

Right.

You guys went to the Isle of Skye.

Yeah, we drove to the Isle of Skye on a P-day.

So listeners need to realize you were the zone leader of the Inverness zone.

I was, yes.

In Scotland. And the Inverness zone covers probably 50% of Scottish geography.

He does. It's the top part of, uh, half of the country, which is all the way, yeah, to the west as well. I was going, and I thought I was— we was a P-day, and, and I wanted to treat the missionaries, and, uh, some of them persuaded me. Um, I think it was week by, by that time. I think, uh, Elder Casper. Yes, he was very persuasive about going to the Isle of Skye, and I was like, my goodness, it sounds amazing. So we got there and I'm like, we've gone for hours and I'm like, I've gone way outside of our area here. And I called Prison Banks on the phone and I said, look, I think I've made a mistake. He was absolutely quiet. He said, hello Wilkes, I am disappointed in you. And Jim Bennett, I felt like I'd just been swallowed up in a black hole. I went right to the mission, right? Okay, we're going back. What do you mean? We just got here. No. President Banks is displeased with me. We are now heading back to Inverness. That's what we did. So yeah, so President Banks taking down a figure 2, for me at least, was quite serious. So I had to get with the program. And so the questionnaire, which was dishonest, didn't do anything with the responses. They weren't really surveying people. The Together Forever, I found profoundly spiritual and very an incredible tool. And the reaction on people's faces often in the homes was mostly pretty positive. We'd leave them with the video. And all this behind all of this was Elder Ballard, you know, driving and running the entire missionary program for the entire world. And so my perspective on him was extremely positive. He was a man who was a great apostle, great insight, had, you know, put together— by the way, the questionnaire those who were baptizing most with the questionnaire were invited down to the mission home to have a pizza and watch a movie. Yes, as an incentive. And I think I questioned, well, you know, I remember saying it because I used to be a little bit spiritual back then. I used to say, President Banks, the spirit surely is enough, that, you know, bringing people into the gospel and saving people's lives, surely that's the great motive here, the incentive. Well, yeah, Elder Wilkes is, but you know, we'll throw in a pizza in a movie as well. I'm like, no, that don't make sense to me. It was like I was pretty hard and fast on the spirituality, a little bit too intense, I think, a little bit too serious, I think, on my part. But anyway, so Elder Ballard, my take on Elder Ballard was positive. He was an extraordinary individual, a man that led the missionary program through significant changes. Yeah, my friends, you know, I think he was involved in the questionnaire because The questionnaire came from, I think, the London South Mission, held at Pinnegar, I think. And I think it'd been developed from some of the missions. So you learn best practices around the world and trial and test them. And then fast forward, my view of elder violence has changed quite significantly. And I think what's changed is the experience learning that he had authorized the release of information, personal information, contact information of members of the church who were significant tithe payers and had released or been involved in, in authorizing the release of that personal information, I think unbeknownst to the individual, and shared that information with Tim Ballard. That's at least one of the allegations. All the whole debacle around the Tim Ballard thing is an absolute disgrace. And President Ballard, they're not related, of course. Tim Ballard, Eldon Ballard, not related. Just wanna be clear there. But the whole debacle and mess around that does not present President Ballard in a good light, notwithstanding, sadly, he's, he's passed away. Uh, and the other piece for me that's changed my view of him very directly was the talk that I gave some time ago about if we find ourselves leaving or departing the church. And I think you've got an excerpt, you've got a little section of that video.

Yeah, this is the excerpt that you've been talking about, that I think you're talking about. Here we go.

If any one of you is faltering in your faith, I ask you the same question. That Peter asked, "To whom shall you go?" If you choose to become inactive or to leave The Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where will you go? What will you do? I found that quite astonishing. When did that come out, Jim Bennett? What was the date of that?

Uh, October of 2016.

Okay, so this was during my faith transition. I was going through a lot of questions, a lot of difficulty. I think I was— I wasn't on the state presidency at the time, but anyway, I was going through a lot of questions. I'd been reading the essays. I was going through a real crisis of faith. And I took this— I think normally, I think I was— if I was in the church, fully immersed in the church, I would've taken, I'd probably received that mostly positively, that talk, if I was still very much on the inside. But where I was at that time and since, I see that as a, it's, it's like a veiled threat in a way. It's quite extraordinary to hear that, like a, like a, you know, if you haven't got Oz, you haven't got anything. Where you gotta go. I mean, without us, you're nothing. Without us, you have no direction. Without us, you have no purpose or meaning. What the heck you gotta do? We're the only place, you know, perfectly or imperfectly, we're the only thing that you've got. And without us, you are, you're lost, you're nothing, and you're directionless. And I took it quite negatively. I thought it was a very arrogant statement to make actually. In the talk. I don't think he intended that. I think his intention was something quite different, but I took that as being very arrogant and in a way quite like a, you know, like a mild threat that, you know, you haven't got a life frankly without us. No purpose, no meaning. You're lost and you need us and You're nothing without us and you can't be anything or do anything without us. And that got my back up. That got my back up. And I, in my mind I'm thinking, well, I won't share with the words quite a few expletives, but I was like, no, you know, you know, I'm in control of my own life. I can go and do whatever I want, when I want, where I want, as long as I'm not hurting anyone. I've got my own life, my own agency. I can make my own choices. And at that time there were questions that were going through my mind and very few answers. And I was being in that, at that time being ostracized, being put off and, and pushed out. And so I had, I had this backdrop drop of going through this faith crisis at the time, but it made me, it actually made me quite angry and actually quite determined that I could actually live successfully the rest of my life. Without the church. It made me even more determined and it was more like a, I won't use the words here, but I was like, piss off. I'm going to, I could think of some great things I can do and be without the church. So in the past, I think I would've, well, I know I would've responded very differently, but because of where I was at that time, and since I see it as quite an arrogant part of that talk. Again, he didn't intend that, but that's how I interpret that talk. So that changed my view on him.

Well, that talk, the date, the timeline of that talk is significant because October 2016 is just under a year after the church's November 2015 exclusionary policy that was a huge crisis for my faith. And that talk was the first time that any member of the Twelve, or really any General Authority, uh, mentioned the policy in conference. It may well be the only time that, that the policy has been mentioned in General Conference, and it was obliquely mentioned. Because he set that up and said, well, so if you're struggling with some kind of policy that the church has instituted, well, you know, this is the true church, so you're stuck. So where will you go? I mean, that was the catalyst, was a reference to the policy. So, so my hearing that, I thought, oh boy, really? That's how you're going to respond to the, the crisis that so many members of the church are feeling because of this policy? This is the most we're going to get. You know, when the policy was reversed, we got more information and more, but none of that came in conference. It all came in, in, in like there was a talk at BYU that President Nelson gave and other sorts of things. But there was never a direct conference talk that confronted all the damage that policy did. I think that policy drove more people out of the church than anything else in my lifetime. And so, and the best he can do is say, oh, well, where did you go? What did you do? What can— where can you go? You're stuck. We're all you got. And I just don't think that's resonating with anybody. I see that as a message that it continues. You know, at Sister Banks' funeral, we've talked about this, but that was essentially Elder Bednar's message at Sister Banks' funeral. It was, nobody can be happy outside this church. This is the only place where you can feel happiness. And that's nonsense. It's not true. We should not be teaching things that are not true. And in the spirit of that, I want to talk a little bit about the, the Tim Ballard stuff, because the allegation has been made that he gave private tithing information out. The church denies it, so we don't have the final story. My guess is that the truth is in between, is that I don't think Elder Ballard would have given Tim Ballard specific tithing records, but I do think Elder Ballard would say, hey, you should go talk to so-and-so, they're doing pretty well. So, so You know, it was, I think, still a violation of trust. I think that principle is still there, but I don't think Elder Ballard would have been unwise enough to expose the church legally to the dangers of actually giving out confidential financial information. But just saying, I mean, because I've seen this in, and I'm going to be very careful here, but I've seen this in leadership councils. I've seen this. Oh, so-and-so is doing very well, you know, and we should— I mean, I have a relative who no longer goes to church who went to tithing settlement, and the bishop said, well, you had a very blessed and prosperous year, didn't you? And he said, that's the moment I decided I am never paying tithing again. You know, so I— the whole Tim Ballard debacle is such an ugly stain on the end of Elder Ballard's life. And the fact that Elder Ballard passed away right as all of this information is coming out, I think has done some rehabilitative work. On his legacy is that at the funeral, you know, and all of the tributes being paid to Elder Ballard since his passing, they're able to completely focus on all the good stuff. I mean, Elder Ballard's financial history is really checkered. Elder Ballard bought a huge theater in Bountiful, Utah that went completely belly up., and he was bankrupt and the church bailed him out. They bought the theater, uh, for more than it was worth. Uh, and I think they still own it and they don't really use it, but it's this big meeting hall that Elder Ballard thought was gonna be a, uh, a, a, and I thought about this when I was running theaters that weren't doing very well. I thought, geez, can I get the Elder Ballard deal? Can the church bail me out too? Uh, you know, so there are a lot of things in Elder Ballard's life as there are in every life really. That he would not want to be remembered for. And I think at the top of that list is the Tim Ballard mess. And the fact that the church put out such a strong statement condemning Tim Ballard and trying to completely exonerate Elder Ballard shows, I think, just how scared the church was. Everybody doubted that statement actually came from the church initially because it was so pointed. But the point of it was, I think, to rehabilitate Elder Ballard. And I think it's only been partially successful. And I can remember this just this last conference, just last month, Elder Ballard's last conference talk, and he talked about being troubled, but he didn't specify why, but everybody knew why. And then ended his talk with a strong testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, which is his family legacy. Elder Ballard is a descendant of Hyrum Smith. And indeed, somebody did the math and determined that a descendant of Hyrum Smith has been in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for I think since Hyrum Smith. I'm probably wrong on that, but— and this is the first time since Elder Ballard was passing, we do not have a member of Hyrum Smith's family in the Quorum of the Twelve. But so you saw him sort of going back to that legacy and trying to wrap himself in the best of what his family was. And hoping that that's how he will be remembered. And I think he will be remembered overall positively. I think this Tim Ballard debacle, I don't think we're ever going to get a full accounting of how involved Elder Ballard was, and I think Elder Ballard should be embarrassed by how involved he was, and the Church should be embarrassed by how involved he was.

Was.

But overall, I think he's a man who lived a good life and tried to do good things, and in many ways was largely successful. Would you agree with that assessment?

I, I will. I do agree. I think we're mature enough to see all the extraordinary achievements Elder Ballard has done over his life. You know, he oversaw significant changes in the missionary effort, you know, the church growth, the different strategies and programs, some worked, some didn't. I put that down to, you know, a little bit of trial and error. I, I, it's this infallibility piece that we keep coming back to, that they try different things and God doesn't give them all the answers. And the, the scripture which says that it's not good that God, that man is commanded in all things, I think Elder Ballard quoted that as well. And when I, when I heard that from Elder Ballard, I think, well, yeah, we're here to to test and to try. It's like the brother of Jared experience with God where he's building the barges and there's no, can be no windows in the barges 'cause they will get dashed by the sea. And so goes to God and say, we have a problem, we can't see in the barges. And God says, well, what do you want me to do about it? Wayne, think about it. He did, found 16 stones, I heard, by the way, one of those stones, some of those, there's a connection with the stones in the Hateno stones, but I don't know where that connection is. Oh, geez.

Well, I read something this week pointing out the fact that glass windows weren't invented until thousands of years after the—

Yeah, the process of producing glass, yeah. So, I mean, that's a whole, that's another conversation. And so he, but the thing is he came back and he said, you know, the 16 songs, if you touch these songs, the English will have mine. So Elder Ballard spoke about that and I thought that was great because we're not commanded in all things. We are an intelligence and we're required to come up with our own solutions and solve our own problems. And so these programs that Elder Ballard put out, you know, that were some successful, some less so. I put that down to his trialing and error, and I was— I'm all right with that. So I think we're mature enough to see Elder Ballard's contribution to the missionary effort and the other general efforts of the church as being overall positive. I, I think the Tim Ballard thing is a, a real, a big stain on his character, and I think the remarks he made in that talk was, uh, regrettable, unfortunate, unnecessary. Wasn't necessary in and quite unfortunate in regards to that. So, but I see him through my experience as a missionary, a young missionary. I see him through my experience as a bishop, a leader, you know. I've been in the church and active and seen that side, my, you know, from that side of my experience through that prism. And then of course, you know, me being on the outside now, I see it I see it quite differently and somewhat critically. So, and I, it comes down to your point, infallibility. He's a man, yes, at times gets inspiration, makes mistakes, does big screw-ups, et cetera, and is not, is far from perfect and made big mistakes just like many people who are, you could almost argue an apostle's almost like a public office in some ways, the exposure and scrutiny. Is extraordinary. So like you and I, it's a very different, very different life. But yeah, I think overall, yeah, I think he's done extraordinary things with his life. And, and most of it's been— a lot of it, most of it, but a lot of it has been positive.

Well, I think that that's probably the best summation we can come up with. We're up against the hour here. So we'll let that be the final word. So until next time, we will look forward to seeing you on the next episode of Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you, Jim Bennett.