Tales of the Unexpected: You Are Enough

Hello and welcome to the latest, uh, regular episode of Inside Out. I'm Ian, your co-host, and I am delighted as always to be joined by my other equal partner and co-host, Jim Bennett. Hello, Jim.

Hello. How are you, sir?

We are doing well. The sun is shining. I feel good. There's challenges in the world, of course, but grateful for family, for health, for friendship, and just really the important fundamentals of life. So just important to keep grounded. How's, how's your day so far?

The day so far is good. Plenty of, plenty of time for it to, to all go wrong. So we'll see what happens.

Don't jinx it. I'm sure it's all gonna go right for Jim Bennett.

There we go.

Hello. Let's get straight into this, Jim. Um, we have, we had a conversation recently and we were thrilled at the idea of sharing what could be described as tales of the unexpected, things that have happened or we've seen or experienced in our lives. During a mission, probably before the mission, post-mission, interesting anecdotes and stories and experiences that we felt our viewers and listeners would be interested in. They're fun, they're interesting, can be quite dramatic at times, and often they carry some important messages and lessons, some of which we know and others perhaps remain a mystery in this little series that we're doing of similar to like The Twilight Zone or the tales of the unexpected. And you have an interesting story for us. So would you kick us off and just share your story?

Sure. It is a tale of the unexpected to some degree. Well, it's, it's the story of how, uh, I ended up on a mission, uh, which I think in some ways is much less dramatic than how you ended up on a mission. But I tried very hard for many years to make it as dramatic as all of that. And that will make sense as I proceed on here. A lot of people do not realize what my real background is because my father was a senator from Utah for decades, well, for 18 years. And everybody assumes that I grew up in Utah with a silver spoon in my mouth because by the time my father was elected to the Senate, he was quite wealthy. But that was not the case growing up. My father was not capable of holding a job, really. When he was elected to the Senate, my mother said to him, gee, do you think you can stick it out for the full 6 years? Because he'd never held a job that long. He had just jumped from job to job. Fired from a number of jobs. Um, and a lot of it, I mean, I could get into a lot of that wasn't his fault. Uh, at one point he was considered to be Deep Throat, the Watergate informant. And for years I thought it would be fun to write a book called My Father, Deep Throat, and just invent this whole scenario where he really was Deep Throat. And the more he denied it, the more the book would sell. But unfortunately, the real Deep Throat has come out and ruined that. But, uh, my father, um, uh, had a PR firm in Washington, DC when I was a little kid that because of Watergate, and I mean, again, that, that's a whole other story. I don't want to get into all the details on that, but because of that, uh, the company went bankrupt. And he only had one client left. And the client was a man named Howard Hughes. Do you recognize the name Howard Hughes?

I do. That name sounds familiar.

Well, Howard Hughes was the Elon Musk of his day, only much, much weirder. Uh, very, very wealthy man. Um, the first billionaire, I think, on planet Earth. And there's a movie about him called The Aviator starring Leonardo DiCaprio. And he ended up losing his mind, uh, genuinely losing his mind. Uh, when he died, um, he weighed 79 pounds and he had not seen another human being except for his caregivers for years. And I mean, just, just absolutely strange thing. And his entire inner circle were members of the church. Mormons were the only people he trusted. And my father ended up getting hired by Howard Hughes as the head of Howard Hughes's PR and never met him and never spoke to him. And it was just a really bizarre circumstance, but the Howard Hughes company was called the Summa Corporation. And the Summa Corporation was based in Los Angeles, California. So, uh, one of my earliest memories is sitting on boxes that movers had put together as we were watching on television Richard Nixon resigning the presidency. So that was August of 1974. And, uh, I was 6 years old and my father moved, moved us. We moved to California, which is where I grew up. I spent 1st grade through 12th grade in California. When I graduated from high school, my parents moved to Utah and I stayed and went to the University of Southern California. And, uh, so, you know, everybody just kind of assumes that Jim Bennett is this big Utah guy and has all these Utah roots, and I really don't. And the other thing is that my father, After Howard Hughes died and nobody knew where the will was, uh, he ended up losing that job and he ended up becoming the PR director for Donny and Marie and the Donny and Marie show. And then that show was canceled. And so he ended up doing a whole bunch of all these different startup businesses. And some of them went somewhere kind of, but most of them didn't. And so we really kind of struggled growing up financially. Um, but, uh, through all of that, uh, so I, I was kind of insulated from that. I didn't really know all that was happening firsthand. I was too young to really understand it, but, uh, I kind of had made a life for myself in 3 different areas. I had essentially 3 different kinds of of circles of friends and circles of influence that very seldom overlapped with each other. One was school, and school was absolutely miserable for me. I was a geeky, skinny, awkward kid, and I, I cried easily, which made me a easy target for bullies. And, uh, I ended up trying to find all these different ways to walk home to avoid— there was one bully in particular that he always had 2 or 3 other guys with him. And so I would try to find a way home where I wouldn't get beaten up on the way home. And, and this extended into middle school when I would take the bus to middle school and I would take a bus far away from my house so that I could avoid the bullies that were lying in wait for me. Me. I was just awkward at school. I was terrible at sports, so I just didn't fit in. I had a big mouth. I was obnoxious. I mean, a lot of the bullying, I went out of my way to provoke it. I don't think that makes me responsible for it, but it kind of helps me to understand it looking back at it. But anyway, I, I just, school was the last place I wanted to be. And I, I had, I had some friends. I had a number of friends at school, but they were all, most of them were kind of the sort of outcasts like I was. Uh, and, uh, my core friend group was in the church. And, um, I had one friend particularly who I'd consider my best friend. Who went to school with me and was also a member of the church. I only had one of those. I had a couple actually, but he was, he was my best friend. And, um, but church was just kind of a refuge for me to a large degree. All that ended up changing as time went on too. And there was, particularly when I got into Boy Scouting, uh, I got bullied mercilessly in Boy Scouts. When the church got rid of Boy Scouts, I was so thrilled because I thought, okay, we're finally going to get to a program that won't be so awful. And what they got to was a program that doesn't exist. But that's another story altogether. So anyway, so I had my school life and I had my church life. Uh, and church was a safer environment and I had closer friends there. Uh, but I still felt like an outcast. I still felt like— outcast is the wrong word. I just didn't fit in. I didn't feel like I belonged. I was a weirdo. I was, I was strange. I mean, I just didn't, you know, when everybody else was like, hey, let's go watch a Dodger game. I was like, I don't like to watch Dodger games. I don't, I mean, that's my interests don't lie with any of this. And so when I was 11 years old, my mother dragged me kicking and screaming to an audition for the Los Angeles Children's Choir. And I thought, oh geez, if I'm getting beaten up at school now, what are they going to do when they find out I'm in a children's choir, that I'm a choir boy? And, uh, but I went and auditioned for it and I went reluctantly to the first few rehearsals. And I was hooked. I was like, oh wait, these are my people. These are my fellow outcasts. These are my fellow weirdos. And, uh, this children's choir morphed over the years into a full sort of performing arts ensemble where we, there was, there was singing, there was dancing, which I was not particularly good at. But I, it was, and there was acting. I, we, we put on these big shows every summer and the name of the group transformed into the Kids of the Century. And the Kids of the Century was where I felt most at home. I still felt like my closest friends were in the church and I still felt this huge connection to the church and I, it didn't even occur to me to challenge the truth claims of the church. I was a, I was a believer from beginning to end. And I absolutely, um, I, you know, my father and I had these big deep conversations that were largely regurgitated Hugh Nibley. But I, from a very early age, I decided that the Book of Mormon was just an unexplainable miracle that was wonderful. And I, I just— it never occurred to me to question, uh, the truth claims of the church. But in the kids of the century, this was a sort of ethnically diverse group, and I had a number of African-American friends, and I was always scared that they would find out I was a Mormon because I knew about the priesthood ban. And I believed at the time that they bore the curse of Cain. That's what I'd been taught. And I thought, oh geez, what if they know? What if they find out that I believe that? And I kept trying to sort of tell myself, you're not really a racist, Jim Bennett. You just I mean, that's just the way it is. They, they bear the curse of Cain. You can still be nice to them. I mean, I mean, that sounds so condescending and it, and it really was, but I kept trying to talk myself into ways to think that it wasn't. So there was always this tension between all these different aspects of my life. And when I was in the Kids of the Century, these were also people that were far more interested because I was very interested, but far more willing to push the boundaries of what was sexually acceptable. You know, I had my first kiss at 11 years old and backstage at one of these shows. I mean, that's— and I was always terrified that this was the world. This is the terrible world that's going to corrupt me. And so I was always kind of an outsider in that regard with them, in that I was sort of clinging to my morality, but also clinging to my feeling of being special, that I'm better than these people. And I really regret that now, looking back at it, because I, I had this sense of myself. That I was in the true church, they weren't. It was my job to sort of reach out to them. And yet I was enjoying them so much as people, uh, that I never did. I never did do missionary work, and I was terrified that they would find out. Not necessarily that I was a Mormon, because they all kind of knew that, but if they looked too closely and realized just how racist the Mormons were, and how weird the Mormons were, uh, I was always kind of living in fear of all of that. So, okay, so that's— we're 14 minutes in and I'm not— haven't gotten to— that's all background. So I'm going to get straight to the story. Um, my senior year in high school, I mean, this went all through high school. By the time I was a senior in high school, things had shifted rather dramatically. I ended up being elected senior class president. Because I gave a really funny speech. And all of a sudden, all the things that were weird and worthy of bullying suddenly became delightful and wonderful. And I was one of the most popular kids on campus, which just, I still don't really understand how that transformation happened, but it happened. And, uh, but I was still deeply involved with the Kids of the Century and they were still a big part of it. And, uh, and then when my family moved away, I kind of felt like, oh geez. Uh, and all my friends went to BYU. I stayed and went to USC because I was going to be a world famous actor. And at that point, right after graduation, there was a girl and I'm not going to name her. I'm not even going to give her a fake name. I'll just talk about it. You'll know who I'm talking about. Uh, but there was a girl who I had known since I was, I think since I was 11, but we had been in Kids of the Century forever. And, uh, she invited me to go see Ferris Bueller's Day Off. You remember Ferris Bueller's Day Off?

Oh, I do. Yes.

And, uh, so that, that came out right after I graduated from high school. And, uh, she said, Jim Bennett.

Jim Bennett, sorry, in Canada, uh, I think last weekend there was a big advertisement celebrating that movie, 40 years anniversary. I think that was last week. Yeah. So go ahead.

That was 40. Yeah. So I'm dating myself very much, but anyway, uh, I didn't even think anything of it. I thought, okay, I've never done anything with her, but we were just friends. And after the date. Which I didn't even realize was a date, she said she was interested in, uh, a romantic relationship. And I was so awkward that like, I, I don't think we ever even called each other girlfriend or boyfriend. I think at one point one of her cousins said, oh, is this your boyfriend? And I giggled and got nervous and weird because I just didn't know how to deal with that. And it was just, but, but, uh, we, we, we kind of became inseparable and I was just really grateful to have somebody because my family was in Utah and I was still in California and I just kind of felt abandoned. And so I just sort of glommed onto this girl and sort of made her the center of my universe. For a little while, for that summer, certainly. And then for, um, then I started my freshman year at the University of Southern California and I would drive hours after school was over in, in downtown LA. I would drive for hours to the San Fernando Valley to see her pretty much every night, which was, I mean, that, that's like an hour, hour and a half drive. But this was just how awesome this was. And I thought, and this was my first girlfriend, and this was my first— actually, I'd had a, I had one girlfriend before, uh, who was a really strange girl. Anyway, hello. So, uh, anyway, so here I am. Well, the church is kind of hovering over all of this in ways that were not visible at first, but became very visible as we got closer and closer. And she wanted to know more and more about me. And at one point there was a girl that came through Kids of the Century who was a member of the church. And we started singing primary songs just off the cuff. And she says, how do you know all these songs? And we said, I think it was Gibb said The Little Street. I'm like, oh, uh, it was just in church. Well, I've never heard that song. I go to church. She was Catholic. I never heard that song. And tell me about your church. And I'm like, can we not? Let's just not. And I really went out of my way to not talk about the church with her. I did not want in any way to address the church. And I knew in the back of my mind I was going on a mission in a year. But at the same time, I was very nervous about going on a mission in a year because I didn't, I, I had very, very mixed feelings on this because I knew it was the right thing to do. I knew it was what I was supposed to do. And yet at the same time, I was also, is the church really true? Or is this just something I've accepted from my family? And my answer to that deep down was no, of course it's true. But I needed to find some way to sort of justify that to other people. I needed it, if that makes any sense at all. It sounds so weird as I verbalize it, and I haven't talked about this for years, if not decades. But it wasn't even that I was suffering from major doubt. I mean, I did have my whole Godmakers experience through all of this, but, uh, I worked through that. I thought to myself, the point where I was fully committed to the church, but how can I look credible and cool to my Kids of the Century friends and to my people who don't understand the church if I'm just going on a mission because this is what's always been expected of me? And so, but deep down I thought, okay, yeah, I know I'm going on a mission. I just don't want to talk about it. I just don't want to worry about it. Well, she kept pushing and pushing and pushing, and she wanted to know what's the deal. And so I would talk to her about the church, and she drank a cup of tea every night and would tease me about how I wouldn't drink the tea. And she's like, you know, you're really missing out. This is really, really, really good stuff. And so finally one night I went, okay, fine. And I reached out. To pick up her cup of tea, and she literally slapped it out of my hand, and it splattered all over the kitchen floor. She says, "What are you doing?" I said, "I'm just gonna show you, I'm just drinking the tea." She says, "I don't wanna be responsible for that. I don't wanna be the woman who corrupted you." And so she was very mindful of this, and also very mindful of the fact that Sex was not on the table, even though we were, you know, I was a freshman in college and most of my friends had, had, uh, she was a senior in high school by this point.

She was a year younger than me.

I think that's right.

I don't remember.

Anyway, she was still living at home. So anyway, uh, at one point I come to her house and she tells me that she spent the last Sunday at a Mormon church, that she just walked on to the church and said, is there anybody here who can tell me about this church? And I was furious. I was furious. I wasn't like, oh, oh great. It was, what are you doing? I told you I don't want to talk about this. I told you I don't want to do this. And she says, oh, I want to know about this church. I want to know about this huge part of your life. And, uh, she started the missionary discussions, and I sat in with her on these missionary discussions, and I watched the missionaries teaching her. In retrospect, these missionaries were awful. Uh, not necessarily awful teachers, but they were so inappropriate with her. They were flirting with her at one point. They were trying to make arrangements to date her when they got off their missions right in front of me, you know. And I— so, I mean, this was hardly the kind of story that would, that would go into the Ensign or Liahona, I guess, is the church magazine now. But, but they, as they were teaching her And I sort of saw her accepting all of this stuff and saw her hearing all this stuff for the first time. Uh, I kind of was able to see it through new eyes and I kind of went, oh, I can see myself doing this. Oh, I think this is helping her. I mean, she was, she had a really difficult relationship, particularly with her father. When she finally joined the church— I'm— spoiler alert, she ends up joining the church— her father kicked her out of the house for a little while. And I think she repaired that fairly quickly, and I think they're very close now, as far as I know. I haven't talked to her in a very long time.

That's another story.

So, here I go. So, I sat and watched these missionary discussions, and I thought, okay, I can do this. But not only can I do this, I can see the value in this. I can see how these principles and these teachings, uh, are of value and, and are helpful to people that are looking for answers. And in the course of it, we ended up breaking up. Um, but even after she joined the church, after we had broken up, and she still asked me to baptize her. And I did. Uh, and, but what this did to me is it gave me a story. It gave me, aha, now when I go on a mission and I am going to go on a mission and I can tell people I'm going to go on a mission, I can say, well, look what, look what it's done for her. This is why I'm going on a mission. I have gained a testimony through her, through her transformation. I have also been transformed, and isn't this wonderful? And, uh, really, in one of the worst decisions I could have possibly made, I ended up getting back together with her weeks before I left, even after I got my mission call. She came up to Utah and stayed with us for a week before I left. She was there the night I was set apart. And so I spent most of my mission pining for her, and we wrote gooey love letters to each other, uh, that kind of tapered off from her end, particularly by the end of it. At one point, uh, I met a missionary that you also know, who I will also not name, uh, who said, hey, I'm in her ward. And I'm going home and I'll say hello to her for you. And I said, well, make sure that's all you do. Like, oh, don't worry. I've got a girlfriend of my own. Uh, they ended up getting married. Uh, so, and there's, there's a less pleasant story surrounding all of that. I don't know if I want to get into that here, but, but, uh, so I'm on my mission. And the story I am telling all of my converts is this dramatic conversion story of Jim Bennett, that I was this wayward soul who really didn't have any kind of a testimony and didn't really know anything. And then as I saw the missionaries teach her, uh, I too gained a testimony and I see all the value of this. And I would tell this story. And I tried really hard to believe it as I was telling it. I tried really hard to think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is my— and I can remember one night I was in Livingston, Scotland, and it was when I was praying. I mean, I can count the number of times I felt real revelatory moments on kind of on one hand, and I've talked about the idea of the revelation I received, the reason I'm still in the Church, when I was contemplating leaving over the 2015 policy of exclusion. But this was a time— I don't know if it was quite as dramatic of that as that, but it was fairly significant in its own right, in that as I was praying, I got this very clear and clear sense that the story I was telling was not true. And furthermore, I knew it was not true. And it was largely a betrayal of all of the wonderful experiences I had had in the church leading up to that point in my life. And the Lord was essentially saying to me, I gave you all those experiences to draw on, and you keep trying to pretend they didn't happen or pretend they didn't matter. So that you can look more dramatic and cool. And isn't that kind of silly? And I thought, you know what? It really is. It is kind of silly. And so my mission to a large degree shifted at that moment because as we've talked about, I was so depressed for, uh, for my mission, particularly those first few months. But this moment when I realized, okay, that dramatic moment, the dramatic experience of seeing her get baptized, uh, there is a tremendous amount of spiritual value in that, but don't pretend that you haven't had this connection your whole life because you have. Because the Lord has been there for you your whole life. And to pretend that he hasn't been there is dishonest to him and to you. And that gave me a newfound sort of sense of confidence on my mission. It gave me an ability to sort of turn it around and go, yeah, this is who I am. It's not big. It's not showy. It's not as dramatic or as cool as I wanted it to be. And even as I say this now, and it was a big— I was a theater guy. It was important to me that my life be dramatic or momentous. And the story of a kid who has grown with a testimony that has come throughout his entire life isn't nearly as dramatic and crowd-pleasing as all of that. But as I talk about this now, 40 years later, It's so silly that that was even a consideration. It's even hard for me to realize, to put myself in the mindset of how that could have possibly been important to me at the time. So yeah, the end result, just for fun, um, I, she ended up coming to Utah when I got off the plane and I'd had these visions of You know, the mists parting and there she would be at the end of the ramp and we would fall into each other's arms and all would be well and we would live eternally happily ever after. And I got off the plane and she was hiding behind my brother and was really squirrely and it was really weird. It was like, and she wouldn't even talk to me and I'm like, well, what are you doing here? If I mean, what, why are you? And we had this dramatic moment where she revealed that she was dating this other missionary that you and I both know. And I said, well, then, then why are you here?

Go home.

And she ended up going home. And then, then there were, uh, the greatest thing that ever happened to me is her marrying this other missionary. Because as time went on, uh, I, I'm much happier with the woman that I have married. I'll just leave it at that. I don't want— I mean, she may end up hearing this, and I don't want this to be an opportunity to end up trashing her, because I will always value that time that she helped me sort of ground myself and get me on a mission. Because she absolutely did, and I will always be grateful to her for that, and I will always be grateful to her for that experience. But I will also always be grateful for the reality that came from that, the reality of the understanding of we are who we are and our relationship with God is personal and one-on-one, and it's different for everybody. And everybody else makes that divine connection in different ways. And I have found that I have been so much happier in my life when I have acknowledged all of that, when I have acknowledged all of the divine connections and all of the wonderful things that happened to me in my childhood. And I can sit here and whine about the times I was bullied. I can sit here and whine about my problems with the Boy Scouts. But I will forever be grateful for what the church did to ground me, what the church continues to do to ground me, to connect me to God. The church is not God. My relationship with the church now is built on an understanding that this is where God wants me, and that this is where my people are, this is where my tribe is, and that the hand of God is still very much in this church. But I don't have to apologize for being who I am, for being someone who's a little bit different, who's a little bit strange, who doesn't necessarily fit the mold of everything else. Uh, I am so much more comfortable in my own skin than I ever was as a missionary, certainly, uh, but— or as I ever was growing up. But that whole process, the church has been there for me throughout that whole process of discovery, and they're still there for me in that whole process of discovery. And so I, I just— this is a story, I guess, as I talk about it, I don't know if it's as wild a story as the unexplained or unexpected. There weren't any evil spirits throwing knives at me or anything else. But my faith came to me in unexpected ways, and maybe even in very expected ways, which was what was unexpected about it, if that makes any sense. So I don't know, is that a story do you think people would like to hear, or is it helpful for you to hear?

Oh, I, I, I think it's a very valuable story and I wanna thank you for sharing it. I think there are a number of lessons in there. I listened intently and there clearly was a transformation in your personal life, a real, a self-realization of, of, um, all the other experiences which, which the Lord had reminded you are in fact valuable and that you don't have to invent something or, um, uh, amplify something or overdevelop something. You know, that you, you know, we had that podcast conversation, which I think you titled, a great title actually, You Are Enough. You remember that? And you are who you are, and this is for everybody really, but who you are, is enough and your experiences, uh, are valuable to you and to others, you know, close around you and to God. Um, and they might not be dramatic and there's no need to, um, you know, overemphasize them or embellish them or develop them. That, uh, some of the, uh, most important lessons and experiences of life are not dramatic. They're just simple lessons that we go through and decisions that we make that change the direction of our lives and remind us of, um, what really matters in the end. And this grounding, uh, this point in time that you arrived at where the Lord and others around you grounded you, just life, life has got this ability to ground us and to bring us back down to earth. I, I, I, I got a couple of thoughts and questions if I may, if you, if you're comfortable, uh, talking about this. You know, the, if you, if you Think about the brochure, let's call it the sales brochure, uh, for the church and, um, around how it communicates and promotes and broadcasts the excitement and the value of serving a mission and the importance of, uh, and, um, obedience around serving a mission. You've got, um, a lot of pressure and encouragement on young people to serve missions, there's a bit of a, um, well, there's quite a bit of pressure I think on some people depending on how you interpret the, the messages. But there's also an element of excitement and fantasy and adventure, right? Um, which I think a lot of missionaries, I certainly felt that, you know, when I was, um, putting my papers in. Did that sense of adventure that going to Scotland from America, a new country. You'd never been there before, I don't think. A different culture, different group of people, a completely different church, uh, setting, different experience. And your personality, you know, being, uh, acting, drama, arts, creative, this creative spirit who is Jim Bennett, did that, um, I guess where I'm going with it, did you feel a sense of inadequacy and perhaps maybe low self-confidence and self-esteem where you felt that you had to draw upon the dramatic side, even the acting side, and to develop these stories to impress people on your mission to to come across as somebody who was not the regular standard Joe missionary service?

Yeah.

Was that just self-esteem or self-worth? And also, do you feel that sometimes that creativity in people can be a, in some ways, a cover for how we really feel inside? You know, I think this relates to everybody, including myself. Every entire planet. Uh, you know that saying of the mission, um, wherever there are, world by part, right? That's the, our mission, um, strapline and life is a stage. We've heard that, right? And as an actor, um, and great communicator, you'll appreciate that. So did you see that creativity in you as a way of, and again, the mission as a, as the stage, I guess. Um, as a way of maybe trying to compensate or cover up maybe some self, uh, lack of self-esteem or self-worth, and that you had to be this other person and maybe develop the story in order to be more, uh, you know, more, um, accepted and valued and even respected and esteemed. Um, is that, is that making any sense?

Makes a lot of sense, and I think it's It's very insightful and is 100% correct. Um, because I, it's taken me years, for instance, for me to admit even to myself that I'm very much an introvert. Uh, and for years people would have just laughed at me if I had have said that, because I was always the big loud guy who was doing all these things and it was very much an attempt to compensate for just deep, profound insecurities and fears. And, and it was a way, you know, if I wasn't the best looking guy, which I wasn't, I wasn't even close. I was weird looking. If I wasn't the most athletic guy, uh, I, I was one of the smarter guys, but that didn't really matter to a lot of people. Um, what was it that I had to offer? What was it that helped me to stand out? What was it that made, gave me value? And I felt like I only have value if I can somehow impress other people. And that was the only way I felt like I could do that was through sort of the drama and through the theater and through all of that. I mean, now I, I really don't have much connection now to the theater. And I don't miss it at all, which is really weird to me. I do, I love the choir, but it's, the choir is really actually perfect for me because it allows me to perform and it allows me to engage with this lovely music and do so almost anonymously. Because when people give a standing ovation to the choir after every performance, How much of that is for me? You know, none of it is. Or I mean, I'll always lean over to the guy next to me and say, hey, Brian, this is all for you. And we'll chuckle at that. But you're kind of anonymous in the choir. And as soon as the choir disbands and you go home and you walk out the tabernacle and you walk amongst the crowds who have just sat there watching you spellbound, none of them know who you are. They don't even know you're in the choir. And I love that. I love it. I love the anonymity of it. So my, my, my whole feeling for doing that kind of thing has changed completely. Uh, but yes, it was all very much, uh, compensating for some very deep insecurities. And, and I felt like that's the only, only way I could do that. And as I've gotten older, I don't know what the saying is. It's attributed to Winston Churchill, and I don't think he actually said this. Jim Bennett, uh, but he said something like, you know, when you're 20s, you're 20s, you're worried about what everybody thinks of you. At some point you don't care what anybody thinks about you. And then in your 50s you realize nobody's thinking about you, you know?

Yeah.

And, uh, I, I've kind of reached that point to some degree.

Right. Interesting. Uh, just a, a couple thoughts. Um, your anecdote, your experiences here, this experience you've shared. At the beginning of the intro, at the, this conversation, in my introduction, I made reference to Tales of the Unexpected and The Twilight Zone. And you remember those old programs? I, I used to watch some of them. I thought it was quite fascinating. And at the end, there's a lesson, um, to learn from those episodes. Usually there's a lesson. It's like the Book of Mormon that where Mormons are bridging the The records, and he says at the end, and thus we see, like, zí ezrem okóryo, he reminds the reader of what they just read and says, hey, there's a lesson in this chapter and we don't need to miss that. And it's the same for those old programs, those Tales of the Expected, there's a lesson to be learned in them. And I think one of the lessons from your experience is a lesson for us all, Jim, in that we're all on a stage at some at some point through the day, different stages, having different conversations with, uh, with different people. And you know, how we act and what we say and how we say it, um, is designed to help us achieve our objectives or purpose. It has hopefully got meaning. And life is a stage, uh, and we are different people, to, we are different to different people and, uh, we behave and respond differently to different people. And I think that is the same for everyone. But I think the lesson here is to, um, appreciate those lessons that matter the most and to be grounded and to accept ourselves as who we are and not to tie our self-esteem or self-worth into something that we've embellished or developed. Because I think we've all done that at some point. I know I have. Your experience highlights, uh, many lessons for us all, including the, the principle of accepting who we are and, and having that self-respect and that self-esteem and self-worth. And appreciating the, um, sometimes the more mundane experiences, which are very important. They shape our lives. And the fact that for every one of us on this planet, we are performing on some stage at some point daily. We meet with people through our work. We have to do things. We have to behave and respond to present ourselves in a certain way. Same in, for our personal lives. We meet people, our families, friends, and each of our friends and family and colleagues, uh, perhaps sees us, uh, in, in quite different ways. And we present a certain side of ourselves to different people at different times, depending on the situation. And I think when you get to our age, I've, I think hopefully most people experience this. You appreciate, uh, fundamentally who you are, you know, at the basic level with all of the strengths and weaknesses that that brings. And you get happy in your skin. You're not perfect. None of us are, but you accept yourself who you are and you hopefully like who you are and, and accept the the full measure of, uh, you know, one's creation and become right with God and be grateful for the fundamental experiences that God has provided or allowed and accept those experiences in a way that gives us that, uh, real self-confidence and self-esteem. And I think that sounds like what you've gone through. But we all, I think at some point pretend or embellish or, you know, extenuate something and probably develop ideas, you know, for different reasons. But in the end, you know, it's, I think we can achieve a level of happiness and security when we accept ourselves for who we are. So I think your experience kind of highlights that really well, and you've gone through this self-realization experience and you sound like you're happy in your skin and you're in a, in a, a, a good place, which is, which is good. I think that's what we, uh, we all should, uh, strive to be, you know, and, and accept that we are, we are good enough.

Well, I agree with that.

And I, and I recognize that the church saw sometimes can make that difficult. Uh, I, I mean, I look at my church experience, I look at my experiences with faith crisis, I look at my experiences with doubt, my experiences, uh, I, and I see resources that I had that a lot of people haven't had. You know, when I read The Godmakers, uh, if I hadn't had the father I had, if I hadn't had the uncle I had, I would probably very well have run away from the church and never gone back. And, you know, I, I also, I think a lot of people come up through the church and they can experience bullying or they can experience feeling otherized and, and not have it go well. You know, I mean, I think I won leadership roulette. More often than not. There are just, I mean, I was going to say only a handful. I'm not even sure that many of leaders that were unbelievably helpful and kind to me growing up. But what happens when you bump into a leader that isn't? What happens? I mean, we just, you look at, uh, my son just graduated, both of my sons, twin boys. Graduated from BYU yesterday, and one of them graduated in, um, applied mathematics. And happened the same day that a news article came out all over the place that a 32-year-old math professor at BYU was caught trying to solicit sex from a 17-year-old girl. And my son said, oh geez. I know that guy. I said, you know him?

He says, no, I've met him.

I don't know him, but I know who he is. I've talked to him. And, you know, this is a guy that's in the church. I mean, these kinds of things happen in the church, whether we want them to or not. Whether we want to or not. We don't want them to happen, but they do. We can point to all of the difficult challenges that happen in the church, and you end up doing the, the math, I think. I mean, is the church making me a better person? Is it making me a worse person? Is the church leading me closer to God? Is it pulling me away from God? And throughout my life, it has constantly been the former. I, I very much believe the church has made me a better person than I would have been otherwise. But I also look at people and say, I think the church may have made some of these people worse than they would have been otherwise. You know, you see people online who just spend all of their time trashing fellow members of the church and trashing queer people and think they have the, the, uh, good housekeeping stamp of approval from God to do that. And when that happens, I think the church has made them worse people. And I mean, that's the calculus that, I mean, when it all comes down to it, eventually, that really ends up being the only calculus that matters to me. You know, I can sit here apologetically and try to debate truth claims and blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't care at this point in my life. I really don't. All I care about is, is this church helping me or hurting me? Is this church lifting me or holding me back? I mean, from— so from your side, I'll turn the question around on you then, Ian. I mean, do you feel the church has made you a better person? And do you feel the church generally makes people better people, or does it make people worse?

That's an interesting question. For me personally, I think the church generally made me a better person. Yes. It generally brought out the best in me, the areas where it didn't. I felt since my mission or during the mission and for many years after that I was special and didn't feel that before I joined the church. Felt kind of either definitely less special than everyone else. Less important, less valued than anyone else at worst, and at best before the mission, equal to everyone else regardless of people's background or color or ethnicity or culture, right? Joining the church almost from day one, I was taught that I was chosen. That I was specifically chosen. And I'll tell you what the Mishnah said, that the, the reason why I joined the church in my family, no one else did at that time, and in that street at that time on Grand Drive, which is pretty rough neighborhood, notorious, was that God has sent the spirit down, me, this valiant spirit that was chosen before the world was. And I was so driven and motivated to find the truth. That the Mishnas were compelled and instructed by God to find me and to save me and rescue me from this awful situation that I was in at that time. That's what I was told. It's exactly what I was told, and I believed it because I wanted to and I needed to. I was in a very vulnerable state, as I've shared on previous podcasts, at the age of 16. So from day one, I was taught that I was some kind of elect chosen vessel and special. And yes, more special than others. And felt some of that, not all the time, but a little bit of that came through on the mission where people didn't accept the gospel for different reasons, during the mission and the idea came into my head and it wasn't exclusive to me. I know that for sure. Other missionaries felt this as well, is that the, the reason why these people re— those people rejected the message on the mission was that they were not valiant and they were not ready to receive the word. That God hadn't prepared them yet and they were not worthy to receive the word. And that was my justification. And again, I'll repeat, I wasn't alone in that thinking. That's the reason why they didn't accept the gospel. They weren't valiant, weren't ready, weren't worthy, weren't special. And through over many years until I became a bishop, there was a, a element in my thinking, my mindset where people who were not Mormon were not on the same level. As me, and I'm ashamed to admit that. I'm deeply ashamed to admit that. So to your question, there were— there's elements in the church which are very dangerous. Culture, thinking, the mindset that, you know, it's the only true church on the face of the earth. We, we, we, we, we talk about that, we make fun of that at times, but that was a serious claim, right? I don't think the church talks about that much, but that was an absolutely, um, dead serious claim that the church has, has communicated often in the past for sure. And that all of the churches are wrong and we are the only ones that are right. We're the only ones with the fullness of the gospel. We're the only ones with all the answers. Everybody else is either wrong or partly wrong or a little bit wrong or whatever, but we have all the answers and we're right. Our way is the only way. The only way to get back to God is to become a Mormon. It's the only way to return. To God with your family. Can't be with your family without becoming a Mormon. And what a privilege it is, an honor to go to the temple and have a temple recommend. And no one else can have a temple recommend unless you're meeting this criteria, and therefore you're even more special in the church. And if you're in the church and you haven't got a recommend, you're not quite at that gold standard level because you haven't got a recommend. Or you, again, if you go higher, you haven't got a certain calling, you know, made the bishop or a stake presidency and and there's a rela— association of being special because of the calling status. And I found that wrong and dangerous. So yes, for the most part, I think the church brings out the best in, I mean, generally in most people. But to your point, there are people in the church. We've had someone on our podcast that's got deeply offensive, outrageous views and positions about race and Blacks. Just extraordinary. And you walked out of that podcast, right?

Yeah.

And right, and rightly so. And those people exist in the church. And that's the, the, the idea of a, you know, the, the, the, the notion or the concept of a bad idea. You know, there's a whole studies and, and podcasts on the history of ideas, right? Where did ideas come from? But the idea, you look at ideas around the world in, especially in ex religion where you get extremities of religion, extremes in religion, fundamental extremism in certain religions. We've got them in our church. We know that they exist in other religions, et cetera. When it gets extreme and fundamentalist extreme, it, we see how that can become very dangerous. No, it can devastate people personally, professionally. Uh, you know, there are wars, uh, battles, conflicts fought over extreme fundamental religions where it becomes so extreme that a certain group is identified as a threat and needs to be exterminated. We, we only have to look into history to see that where ideas can turn so ugly that they can actually destroy and, and cause destruction even on a wholesale level. I'm, I'm talking about the extremes here, but are those elements in the idea form? Do they exist in the church? Sadly, they do. The idea that Black people, uh, are not seen as equal to white people by even some in the church who probably, uh, white supremacists, um, I know they exist in the church. I think that is tragic and very, very, very sad and very unfortunate. So anyway, it's a long answer to your question, but I think again, for the most part, I think the church does good. I think it wants to do good. I think most of the people are pretty decent. Many of them are pretty awesome, but there are elements, you know, people that take these doctrines, uh, to the extreme and they get, you know, they're quite overzealous and get extreme and, and we see that there's an element of that in the church and it gets quite political as well where it gets so extreme and quite volatile. It can be very, very divisive and very, very dangerous. And I think that, I think it, that's not unique to the Mormon Church. We see that in other religions. So I dunno if that answers your question, but Would I do it all again? Um, yeah, I think I'd leave sooner, frankly, because of the time, you know. I don't think I'd have done the state calling, state presidency calling. I think I'd have declined that. Um, in hindsight, I don't think— that was a good experience, but I think I'd grown to a point where I didn't need to have that experience. But before that, I think most of my experience was pretty good, to Well, I think that's a fair assessment.

And I think that you have put your, you know, your finger on the pulse of one of the big problems is this idea of I am special, I am chosen, I am better. I mean, that's something that I wrestled with even, and it's so hard to reconcile this because I wrestled with this even while I was feeling woefully inadequate and worse than everybody else, when I thought I was the outcast, that I was the misfit, there was still this part of me that said, okay, you are, you are better than they are because you have the restored gospel and they don't. But that didn't give me cold, that was cold comfort because I didn't, it didn't lift me up. To think that way. In some ways it made me feel worse because it was like, yeah, if I'm better and this is how much I still screw up, uh, then what hope is there for anybody? I don't know if I, it doesn't matter, but I mean, that can be a very dangerous idea. Uh, at its core though, I think there is a beautiful egalitarian idea and It's the idea that we are all children of God. And I think that's the idea that is more important than trying to figure out where our membership records are. Uh, because I have 5 children. Uh, I love all of my children. There is absolutely nothing that any of my children could do that would have me say, I never want to speak to you again. I want to banish you to outer darkness, or I just don't want you in my life. I mean, even if my children were murderers, I would be visiting them in prison. They aren't murderers. They're all magnificent human beings. They brought me nothing but joy throughout my entire life. But it's the idea, the core idea of being children of God is so much more important, I think, than boasting of your membership in the church. If, if there's any possible way to sort of reconcile the only true church idea with that idea, it has to come in the form of an acceptance of additional responsibility., but even with that, there's still this sense of, well, I'm kind of a big deal. I mean, we were, we were messaging back and forth about wanting to be APs on our mission.

You, you, you confessed to me that you were aspiring to be an AP.

Why did you want to be an AP?

I wasn't the aspiring type on the mission until Later on, believe it or not, you think it should be the way around, you know, going on a mission, you know, your maturity grows. But towards the end of the mission, was taught that I was a, um, what, what was actually was, uh, counseled specifically to prepare to become an AP, by the way, with some missionaries and with President Banks that I was a leader, that I can expect to do great things, and that I would, uh, um, go through the different leadership, uh, levels within the mission. And I think, uh, that was an expectation on my part. So for the most of the mission, I didn't aspire. I, I expected it to happen. I didn't do anything in particular special until later on when, um, someone else who came out with me. This is the messages that you and I went back and forward. This is, this is the confession time for, for Ian.

Yeah.

Where I'm, I've, this other person who was a great missionary and I, I only spoke to him yesterday.

And he, he, I didn't realize you came out with him.

I came out with him.

Oh yeah.

And he was an AP.

He was an AP. So we came out together. He was an extraordinary missionary. He was the only missionary I felt jealous of. Motivated, intelligent, uh, just charismatic. He just had everything. And he was, and I was like, dang, this guy's good. And he was brilliant. He was absolutely brilliant, and he was very, very motivated, very powerful. And he was like an apostle in the waiting. He really was. And I had this silent, critical respect for him. And it was, I saw him as a, I'm ashamed to admit this, bit of a competitor for the AP calling. So when I was, I thought, being positioned to become, you know, AP after being a zone leader, and then I didn't get it, I was pretty dang pissed, frankly. And I, I, I felt overlooked and, uh, pretty angry. It was complete immaturity on my part, maybe complete, you know, douchebag and just immature and, and not spiritual at all. You know, my natural man, I think we'd call it, wouldn't we? Um, and it, uh, yeah, that was the only leadership calling in my life actually I'd ever aspired to, to becoming an AP. And I think others wanted to become an AP, even, even some that didn't want to, but privately did. Um, I think there's an element of that, isn't there? You know, you're on a mission and, you know, oh, so-and-so came out with you and they've been made a district leader and you're not a district leader, or they've been made a zone leader, you're not a zone leader. I know one person in particular really well, uh, who also came out with me, uh, who I've love and respect. And I think he was made zone leader a month after, I think. But, um, and him and I talked about this. And so, you know, when you, you group, when you come out with a certain group and then they get advancement before you do, I think it's natural in some ways, understandable, um, in others to feel, you know, have you been overlooked and when you're going to get made a district leader or zone leader. So there's definitely an element of that. And I never felt that until this person became the AP. And I wasn't happy about that. So I had about a day of sulking, right? Walking around miserable, you know, Elder Wilkes, what's happening? Oh, just doesn't matter. Just focus on the work, Elder. Okay. I was a senior zone leader at the time. But Um, I recovered, you know, after a few days. Hard lesson, humbling, tail between my legs. Um, spoke to President Banks about it, said that I need to be in the field. He said, you know, the best place to be where the Lord is, be in the field, not in the office. So I'm kind of like, yeah, exactly right. I could have made AP. It's good enough to be AP. But God had a more important calling for me, be in the field. You know, I'm a foot soldier. Who wants to be in an office pushing pens and moving paperwork, right? That was my immature way of, uh, the prison banks helped me in that direction of reminding me that, uh, you know, what I was doing was important. But yeah, so it was a brief moment where, uh, uh, I, I did aspire, um, So there we go. There we go. That's the immature side to me growing up.

I didn't mean to put you on the spot like that.

No, I don't mind. I don't mind. I think, you know, these conversations that we have, I think, like what you shared, I think we're at a stage in life where we just don't mind now. You know, I had this nervousness about doing the podcast, coming to you about doing the podcast, because for a while, for months, we talked about this and I said, well, I don't know if I can share stuff about my life and I'm very private. And here I am sharing everything about my life and probably it's too much for people, but oh, I don't know. I just think if you're gonna go out, if you're gonna die, you know, go out in a big flash of light. Um, you know that quote that you're saying from Churchill, you kind of paraphrase it a bit. I like the other, the other quote, uh, which, um, if you say it in a certain way, can give you a different interpretation. You know, if you're doing something in life or you want some kind of attention or acceptance or whatever position, and you realize that, uh, you know, people don't give a shit. And you're like, oh crap, they don't give a shit. But there's another side to that where people don't give a shit. And it's like, well, that's good. They don't give a shit, right? So it's how you say it and how you interpret that, which I think makes all the difference. But I think where we are in our lives, I think we're accepted who we are, all the strengths and weaknesses, warts and all. We've got these profound experiences in our lives. Successes, we've had failures. We have kids that we're proud of, families that we're proud of. We're not perfect. We're trying to, um, get through life one day at a time, dealing with all kinds of issues like everybody else. We are very regular in that sense. Uh, but I think, um, I think we're grounded and I think we've accepted and realized that God is good. God is gracious. He probably looks down and laughs at us a few times and thinks we're ridiculous. Um, and again, through a humble way, spiritual way, grounds us and reminds us of what's important in the end. Um, and on what's, um, what matters, what matters most, as President Monson would say. And hopefully we learn from those lessons, and those lessons in and out the church hopefully make us better people. So I think your story, I think it's, it's very important to you, and I think we'll learn a lot from it, and I'm grateful to you for sharing that. And I think, Jim Bennett, you are enough., and you're wonderful, and you've had successes and failures like us all. You're no different in that sense. And I appreciate very much you sharing your, uh, your experiences and opening up. Sometimes not difficult— not, sorry, not, uh, rather not easy to do that. Do you have any final thoughts or comments before we, uh, we close?

Uh, no, just thank you for indulging me and letting me tell that story.

Um, but But I just think if we can help anybody recognize that they are enough and recognize that with all of the— I mean, I think most of the people who listen to us are trying to figure out some way to constructively engage with the church. Doesn't necessarily mean that they are trying to come back to church or even that they're trying to leave the church or anything. They're just trying to figure out what their relationship is and how to make it constructive and how to make it positive. And I, I just want people to know that I'm with you. I know how that, I know how that feels. I know how that works. Uh, and if this can help anybody to feel more comfortable in their own skin and feel more comfortable in their relationship with the church, then I think we'll have done a good thing. And I think, Ian, you have done just so much wonderful heavy lifting in that regard. I think you have been kind of the gold standard for how, how to deal constructively with the church, even after you no longer have faith in, faith in the church. And I think that's important. And so I just think that these conversations Uh, they feel important to me even if they're not important. And so that's why I wanna keep having them.

And, and I'm so grateful, deeply, uh, immensely grateful, Jim, that you and I created, co-created Inside Out. You know, I just, as a, a, a, a final comment from me, if we weren't hosting these conversations, right? Meeting like this, having these conversations, and they were just for us, that would be enough because I learned even on this conversation, I've learned so, so many things. It's one thing that really struck me, which is quite personal to me that you've shared, which I won't discuss here. I'll discuss offline. And I realized it through one of your comments, one of your points that you made. So I'm very, very grateful. It's a very personal thing and it, it answered a question actually that I've been struggling with. So I'm grateful. So I get so much from this conversation selflessly just for me. So I'm very, very grateful to you. I love you and appreciate you. You're just an extraordinary, wonderful friend. I hope we'll be together in the next life. That might be too daunting for you, too scary for you, but wherever you are, you know, wherever I am, I hope you'll come down to visit me at least, uh, you know, once in a blue moon.

I will be happy to come up to visit you. I think that will be fun.

I'm not sure about that. Jim Bennett, you are a wonderful human being. You have a big heart. You have a wonderful family. And, uh, grateful to you for sharing your, your, um, life's lessons. I think we can all, uh, learn a lot from them. So thank you very much for opening up today.

Thank you.