The Assassination of Charlie Kirk

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. This is an episode that we're doing outside of our normal schedule. And Ian, I'm very grateful to have you here. How are you?

I'm feeling sad and shocked, to be honest.

You and me both. Um, and that's the reason why we decided that this would be important to sort of speak out on this, to talk about it. We are recording this the morning of September 11th, uh, when— and we're not going to be discussing what happened in 2001. We're going to be happen— discussing what happened on September 10th of 2025, which was the brutal assassination of commentator Charlie Kirk, uh, who I was cognizant of. I mean, I knew who he was, but I hadn't really ever followed him or paid much attention to him. Uh, but this, his assassination struck so close to home and in so many ways, uh, one being that it took place on the campus of Utah Valley University, which is about 30 minutes from my home. And Ian, you wrote something on Facebook about the fact that, uh, the president of Utah Valley University for, uh, quite some time was our mission friend Matt Holland, who's now a General Authority. But, uh, Matt Holland had taken efforts to make that as safe a campus as possible. And so, so when this happened, I wasn't sure whether or not I was overreacting, uh, because it was hitting so close to home. Uh, the other way it hit close to home is the, the person they arrested initially. Uh, this was surreal to me initially when the, the, the, the murder happened. They arrested, they kept saying, an elderly man. And then I saw the video of it and then somebody identified him by name and his name is George Zinn. And I know George Zinn. Um, in fact, anybody who has worked in Republican politics in the state of Utah knows George Zinn because George Zinn is a Republican activist, uh, who shows up at everything, at every event. That Republicans do. And even when I ran for Congress as a candidate for the United Utah Party, and I, um, George Zinn was at every single event that I, that I held. Uh, people refer to him as one of the three Nephites because he sort of appears magically. When Jon Huntsman Jr. was appointed and installed as the ambassador to China in the first Trump administration. George Zinn showed up in China, uh, to watch the installation. I mean, this is a guy who just, he's, he's everywhere and he's, he's somewhat mentally unstable. He's gotten in trouble with the law before because he wrote a letter to an email after to the organizer, organizers of the Salt Lake City Marathon. And said, do you need me to plant some bombs at the finish line? And I think he thought he was making a joke, and obviously it wasn't at all funny, and he was arrested for that and then later released. An indication seemed to be that he sort of took credit for this just to get the attention, which would be somewhat par for the course for, for this man. Uh, but he was eventually released. Uh, I've always thought him to be Strange but harmless, and that still seems to be the case. But, uh, they have not found the shooter. Uh, they apparently this morning they have found a gun that was left in a wooded area, and I'm sitting here trying to think what wooded area is nearby Utah Valley University. Um, they found a palm print on the gun. They found a footprint up near the scene, and they're saying that the shooter is of college age. So I was nervous. I woke up in the middle of the night thinking they're never going to catch this guy. And now I'm fairly confident that they probably will. It's only a matter of time. Uh, but the reason why, Ian, I think it's important that you and I have this conversation, because, uh, and you, you were saying before we started recording, look, this is not a political podcast. We focus on issues surrounding the church. And so what is it that we need to talk about? And there are a couple of things that I think are essential to talk about, particularly in light of the church. I think, I think it's no coincidence that just prior to this, President Nelson wrote an article that was published in Time magazine that was essential— is essentially the summation of his entire ministry. And the focus again is on being a peacemaker. And the same day that the shooting took place, Elder Christofferson took to social media and posted a video talking about the essential importance of being a peacemaker. And if ever there were a message that were prophetic in these times, That is it. That is the church, I think, is establishing some moral authority, as Greg Prince likes to talk about, that this idea of being a peacemaker, the church needs to lead out on this because I feel like it, and I don't really understand why this is different from some of the other— I mean, the same day there was a shooting in Colorado of innocent school children. So far, there are children that are in critical condition, but I don't know that there have been any deaths yet, but that may just be a matter of time, sadly. I didn't feel this way a few months ago when the Speaker of the Minnesota House, was shot along with her husband. And the Mike Lee, Senator from Utah, initially tried to say, this is what happens when Marxists don't get, don't get their way. And then it came out that the shooter was in fact a Trump supporter and a Republican. And which made Mike Lee's politicization of this, even more deplorable than it already was, because I think politicizing this is unbelievably deplorable. Uh, the fact of the matter is whoever shot Charlie Kirk, and I, again, I didn't know Charlie Kirk well, and there have been people, I mean, I didn't know Charlie Kirk personally at all, but I didn't know much about him either. And there are people who are posting Oh, here are some of the terrible things that Charlie Kirk has said. And I just think, you know, this is not the time to do that. If there ever is a time to do that, this is a time to recognize that he left behind a grieving young widow and two young children who are going to grow up without a father. And, and the fact that We jump to politics and leap to politics. I, I, I look at, at, at Donald— President Trump gave the most incendiary political speech I've heard in my lifetime. You know, uh, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton all published, uh, statements of grief and support for Charlie Kirk's family. And President Trump yesterday gave this speech saying, this is all because of the radical left and we're going to root them out and we're going to hunt them down. Uh, he's talking about hunting down Americans, uh, because of their political opinions, because somehow we're responsible. If we were opposed to Donald Trump, we're responsible for Charlie Kirk's death. And that's just, that's just so deplorable to me. But again, the focus here, we're talking about the church. And yesterday I posted, I went to Twitter and I posted, I'm going to read you this thread. I said, Charlie Kirk's murder is unconscionable, full stop. My heart breaks for his wife and young children. I fear this is going to escalate into more ugliness. Than the country can handle. And that's really how it feels to me. I don't know how it feels up north, Ian, where you are. Is that kind of the vibe there? Does this feel different to you than other sorts of tragedies like this? It does.

It does. You called me yesterday afternoon to tell me about this situation, this incident. I'd been on a project site all day and not at all aware what was going on. And you kind of just took me through what happened. And I was listening on a phone conversation in absolute shock and dismay. Following our conversation, I listened to a number of media channels and, uh, watched, um, a couple of videos, um, from a distance, um, of what had unfolded, and I was sick to my stomach. I, you know, people sadly lose their lives every day and we don't know them. Um, and I trying to figure out why I felt differently about this. I think it's because, you know, America is, from our perspective up here, appears to be, and I think probably across the globe, is at a significant crossroads. Its relationship with the world appears to be changing radically. On my post, as you referenced earlier, I shared an experience, you know, you and I served together with Matt Holland years ago. He was a great missionary, a wonderful leader, and a mentor to so many. And as you know, he was the president of the Utah Valley University, and him and I was having this conversation, I think it was back in 2016 or 2017, about doing some stuff together. And, you know, I've been to the university on occasion, and as I mentioned on my post, I was I mentioned I couldn't imagine the fear that people would have felt witnessing that. What a truly awful, awful situation, you know, for Charlie and his family. You know, he had his own views on things, and I didn't necessarily follow him or aware of all of his views or opinions on things. But notwithstanding that, uh, there's absolutely no justification for, uh, taking anyone's life. Um, certainly, uh, you know, even if they have different opinions and different views. And I've seen some of those comments since you and I had that conversation yesterday, and there are people out there politicizing. You're right to remind our listeners that Inside Out is not a political podcast. We, we had a, a conversation a while back about the relationship between the church and politics, and I thought that was very appropriate and very healthy, and we don't want to politicize Inside Out whatsoever. As I've learned a bit more about what's been going on, I see values, really important values being threatened, like freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is really important to be able to speak freely and openly about one's thoughts and opinions, even if they are different to others. I'm not talking about speech that incites violence. I think that's wrong. I think there needs to be some rules and regulations on that, but I'm talking about a different view or different opinion on certain things, and that's okay. We need to have a constructive and respectful civil discourse in public. When I saw that video, Jim Bennett, I was absolutely, as I say, sickened to my stomach. And it was an assassination. There's no way of describing it. A political assassination of, uh, an activist. Um, uh, in, in public. Um, not that that changed anything. Well, I guess it, it, it does in terms of the, um, the setting and the environment with so many, uh, people, uh, there and present. And it was an act of pure evil. There's no other way of describing it. And so I'm hoping that, and I'm confident that the church will play a very important part here to help people, to unite people and to bring people together. And I think it's a time now, I really hope, I hope I'm not naive, Jim. I hope this is, going to your question, it feels differently and I'm trying to figure out why it feels different. I think it's because America, as I mentioned in my post, it's so divided and polarized politically. We're having these major events in the world and we, as I mentioned, um, I say in my post, I reference the, uh, I spoke about the importance and value of having a strong America in the world. An America which is doing the right thing home and abroad and helping and supporting and spreading, uh, you know, democracy, uh, for all, for the right reasons in the right way. And I think that's changed fundamentally and significantly. And I think we're more at risk now because of the division within America. I know that's a lot to ask, a lot to put on America, and it's unfair to ask too much of the United States to do all these things. And The other freedom-loving nations and people need to step up and lead and, and, and understand that America can't do it all. We have to, um, protect the values of, uh, what the church teaches very clearly about family, liberty, and freedom, and democracy, and the right to free speech. And the church is, a strong advocate for that. It, it, it, I'm confident that the leaders, and I don't know if they put out a press release yet, but I'm confident that the leaders will, um, gather, you know, the apostles, the leaders will gather, they'll unite, they'll deliver a common united message to its members to, um, show love and respect to what's happened to Charlie and his family. To call for unity and respectful civil discourse, to talk about the importance and value of freedom of speech in relationship to the principles of the gospel. I think about Jesus Christ, who had spiritual and political views, no doubt. I think that got him into trouble. You know, he was— Christ was murdered. He was crucified., because of his views on certain things. Um, and I'm not trying to draw any parallel or anything like that, but I'm just saying that we need to be, we need to have the, um, the right to be able to speak up and speak out and express our opinions, even again, as they, as they, uh, may be different from others. And I think the church has a role here to, to talk about this and say, hey, You know, across the members we have different views, but let's, um, you know, let's, you know, violence is not the answer. Assassinating people is not the answer. Uh, respecting each other's views and opinions and coming to some understanding and agreeing on things that we can agree on and at least having some respect on areas that we don't agree on. And I think the church has a really important role and an opportunity here now to communicate that in a very kind and respectful, and it will. I don't doubt that, that it will. So there are my, as I was listening to you and learning a bit about what happened yesterday and trying to catch up, they were some of my thoughts. And I want to be open here with Alice as I was concerned about this conversation and because we didn't want to say or do anything that could compromise the integrity of Inside Out and the model of the principles, keeping in mind it's a Mormon Church, Mormon faith religious podcast. And as I've listened to you and I've done my own, had my own thinking, there is, this is an important conversation to have for sure. And to understand the relationship between what's happened and the principles, uh, that the church, uh, advocates and, and teaches. I, just to close this part of my thoughts here, Jim Bennett, I am hopeful and I'm confident at this junction, this intersection in modern American politics, which is a, yesterday is a, a very dark, dark day in American politics. It truly is. But I'm confident that most people, not everyone, most people will come together across the political divide, notwithstanding the, um, big differences between opinions. And I see that happening, um, to some extent, but I hope that we can, uh, the world can see this and learn from this, that America can learn from this and that people will come together. And unite and condemn what's happened and go forward in a much more respectful way because online, and you know this more than I do, you're more political than I am. I follow politics, but I'm not as immersed in it as yourself and many others, but it's become very toxic, Jim Bennett, online. And, you know, people, you've mentioned earlier that you received death threats, which is Absolutely shocking. I, I can't imagine how that feels. And so I think, again, I think the church has an opportunity to talk about this, uh, even a conference to talk about the, the, uh, responsibility of avoiding incendiary language online. You know, it's, it's a lot of people wouldn't say some of those things if they were in person in front of the person's face, but because it's online, They feel they can say anything and it doesn't hurt or it doesn't matter because it's online. They can post it even anonymously. They can spread all their vitriol and anger and hatred. In person, they probably wouldn't because they'd probably be ashamed, maybe. But online, through anonymous names, etc., they feel they can say anything. And it's reckless, frankly. So I hope that the church will speak about these things, uh, as soon as possible, uh, help be a, uh, a force for uniting people. Talk about, you know, having respectful civil discourse, avoiding toxic language, and, uh, avoiding any, anything that would incite violence towards another. So I, um, I feel very sad and I feel very shocked and I But also, I feel hopeful that I can't see it right now, but I hope that some good will come from this. I'm sure it will.

Well, everything you're saying about the toxicity online. So, so I think that ties this into actually the impact this is going to have on the church, because the toxicity that I've gotten is coming from church members, anonymous church members. As exactly as you say, people, people feel like they can say things when they're hiding behind a mask or they're hiding behind anonymity, uh, that they would never say to you in person. But so, you know, I said, okay, when I went on the Twitter, I wrote, Charlie Kirk's murder is unconscionable, full stop. My heart breaks for his wife and children. I fear this is going to escalate into more ugliness than the country can handle. And one of the responses from, was from a guy who calls himself Captain Mahanrai. As in Mohanrai Mori Ankamar, I'm assuming. And here's what he said to me. Yeah, you will still vote for the people behind the rhetoric and policies that killed him. You are officially my enemy. You are the worst among us, Jim. Arrogant, unrepentant, prideful, narcissistic, a snake. On the precipice of leaving the church because of politics. You will remain unchanged, vote for more evil, and eventually choose your political narrative over the church. Save this tweet, Snake. And I just look at that and think, this is somebody, uh, who could be sitting next to me in the pews. Next time I'm at church, I don't know who this person is. Uh, I don't know if I've ever met them in real life or not. Uh, but this person is blaming me because of who I vote for, for Charlie Kirk's death. And the terrifying thing about this is that, you know, it's, there's a sort of a bitter irony that we're recording this on September 11th. Because I can remember, as I'm sure you probably can, um, it may have been different outside the United States. I don't think it would have been too different, but the sense of unity that the nation felt and that the world felt in the wake of those horrific attacks is unlike anything I have ever felt before or since. That, that tragedy reminded all of us that we're in this together and the political differences are really sort of petty in the long run. And, and for a time it brought the world together in unity that we all recognized our common humanity. We all recognize that we're brothers and sisters. And that didn't last nearly long enough, but there was that moment. There was that time. Uh, and clearly the assassination of one person isn't anywhere near the kind of horrific tragedy that 9/11 was, but the fact that so many people, including you and I, have seen the video, I mean, it's just so— I, I really, if you haven't seen it, please don't. It will haunt you for the rest of your life. I mean, to have something like that happen in a way that was public and visible and happened to a person who really was at the crux of the political divisions that are, that are deeply dividing this country. Charlie, Charlie Kirk was a polemicist, um, very divisive figure. I don't want to criticize him, but I think it's important to acknowledge The reality that the culture wars and the deep divisions, um, Charlie Kirk was very much on the front lines of those. And what's happening here, particularly with comments like this from our good friend Captain Mahan Rai, um, is that rather than coming together the way we did on 9/11, these This is, it's terrifying to me, but this is exacerbating the division. It's giving people license to give voice to ugly and vicious thoughts. And, uh, you know, for this guy who I don't know to declare me responsible for Charlie Kirk's death because I vote for Democrats. And that I am his enemy. And this is a guy who is a member of the church. This is a guy who has made the same covenants that I have made and who, who ostensibly sustains as a prophet, seer, and revelator the man who tells us to be peacemakers. This is a guy who has publicly called me out as his enemy. And it's terrifying to me that these divisions are getting deeper rather than coming together. Prior to this, um, I was having a long-running conversation with my long-running foil, Jacob Hanson, who to his credit, I think, has responded to Charlie Kirk's assassination. Entirely responsibly and appropriately and recognizes where the boundaries are, unlike Captain Mahanrai and others. Um, anyway, uh, but he had posted a couple of days ago a picture of Salt Lake City's congressional districts and showed this kind of blue concentrations in downtown Salt Lake that for a high concentration of Democrats as opposed to on the south end of the valley where there is a high concentration of Republicans. And he cited 3 different people he considered to be apostates, um, who, uh, at least 2 of them— I think all of them are still mem— no, no, one of them was John DeLinn, but I know at least one of them was very much an active member of the church. But said, guess where these three people live? They live among the Democrats. And clearly this map tells us everything we need to know. The implication being that if you're a Democrat, you can't be a good Latter-day Saint. And we've been going back and forth on that. And I was quoting President Oaks on this. President Oaks has said, we should never say that a faithful Latter-day Saint can't belong to a certain political party. Or vote for a certain candidate. And yeah, and there is such— there is a growing contingent of people in the church that sort of not only reject that counsel but think they're somehow living a higher law as they do it. This was— have you ever used Grok? Do you know what Grok is? No. Grok is Twitter or X's artificial intelligence. It's like ChatGPT, but you can ask in the middle of a Twitter thread, you can say, hey Grok, is this true? Or hey Grok, where is this movie clip from? It's actually really helpful. It's one of the reasons why I've gone back to Twitter is I really kind of enjoy Grok. But I had said, You're rejecting President Oaks's counsel when you do this, and you want credit for sustaining President Oaks as you reject his counsel and exacerbate the divisions that he's trying to heal. And not Jacob Hanson, but some other anonymous guy said, hey, Grok, this isn't true, right? And Grok said no. It looks like you're rejecting the council. And then this guy said, well, but isn't he only giving this council because members of the church can't accept the higher law? The higher law is that Democrats are all evil. And of course Grok, being an artificial intelligence, said there's no indication of that. His council's very clear. We should not judge other members of the church based on their political affiliations. And, and I just thought that was amazing because there is a mindset in the church among very conservative elements of the church that people with different political points of view are not just wrong, but they're evil. And, and this assassination is giving license to that. The president essentially endorsing that point of view is giving license to that. And the divisions are most painful for me within the church. We already see the divisions in the world. We see the political divisions in the United States. But as the Church of Jesus Christ, as the church of the Prince of Peace, as a church of, you know, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and despitefully use you, um, that's, that's all but lost. It, it, and it's getting worse. Rather than getting better. It's getting— the divisions are getting deeper within the church, and this is exacerbating them. And so maybe that's one of the reasons why it feels so much more so different and so much more disturbing, is that there is a significance to the fact that this happened in Utah. Utah Valley University is a state university. It's a stone's throw away essentially from BYU, which is a church-owned university, but it is not church-owned or church-sponsored. But it's in the heart of Utah Valley, and it's in the heart of population center that has more members of the church than just about anywhere else. And so the fact that this could happen in Utah is disturbing. Happened in the land where so many people have made covenants to reject this kind of thing. It really is disturbing and unsettling, and it's unsettling that so many members of the church seem to be drawing the wrong lesson from it. They seem to be thinking, aha, see, this gives me license to hate the Jim Bennetts who don't— who didn't vote for Donald Trump.

From.

This gives me license to blame fellow church members for murder. And, and we don't— first of all, we don't know. We do not know why this person did this. We do not know who did this. And it's like, well, it's pretty obvious, they must have been a leftist. Really? The people who shot at Donald Trump were Republicans.

We—

you thought that it was a Marxist, Mike Lee, who shot the Minnesota speaker, and it turned out to be a Republican. John Hinckley shot Ronald Reagan in order to impress an actress. The guy who shot John Lennon shot him because he loved him so much that he wanted to be him and thought that getting rid of the real John Lennon would allow himself to be John Lennon. I mean, anybody that's willing to pull a trigger and take a human life is not somebody that is acting in a rational fashion. These are people who are deeply disturbed. And to then say, okay, well, even if this guy turns out to be a wild-eyed leftist, then to take that and say that justifies my hatred of all the church members who didn't vote the way I did is repugnant. It is morally repugnant beyond words. And again, I come back to the fact that we have never had more prophetic counsel and more timely prophetic counsel than we've received in the last few days. The call to be a peacemaker is not just a call to be nice. It is a call to heal the deep divisions that have been inflicted upon our nation and which have infected our church. These divisions in the church are real and they are deep and they are powerful, and this is making it far, far worse. And I really fear that it's going to get worse before it gets better, if it gets better. I don't have confidence necessary that it will get better. There are so many people, particularly in the church, who put politics ahead of their covenants. It's more important to them, uh, to own the libs and to punish people, uh, that that they disagree with politically than it is for them to follow the Savior. And it is deeply, it is deeply, it is deeply unsettling, disturbing, frightening. I mean, this isn't just— I'm not just looking at this as a passive observer. I'm looking at this as somebody who is frightened by the fact that there are Captain Mahanryse and others out there. That are looking for an excuse and looking for a reason, um, to do what? I don't know. Uh, what are they capable of? If they're capable of speaking to a total stranger this way, who's to say they're not capable of violence too? Uh, it, it's just absolutely terrifying. So I leave it to you, Ian, to give me words of wisdom and comfort., to talk me off the ledge here.

I'm, uh, I'm really sorry that you have been, uh, on the receiving end of death threats and—

Well, this is not a death threat. I mean, it's—

but it, it, you receive, you receive death threats from others. Uh, if I understand that correctly, privately.

Yeah. And I don't, I don't want to give voice to those.

No, and I mean, but that's the, uh, that's the extreme side of this. Uh, there's no justification for doing that. It's just, it's evil in itself. Um, the Captain Mohan Rai, um, clearly, uh, is not a Christian, doesn't follow Christ, and is not aligned to the principles that Christ taught. And he's hiding behind, you know, some name anonymously online. To your question about wisdom, I don't think I have any wisdom, but all I can say is remind us what Christ taught and who he was in his example. You know, he taught the two most important commandments, love for God and love your neighbor. They are the greatest commandments. These were principles that exemplified his life, you know, his life of service, compassion, and respectful interaction with people that he came into contact with. He probably had numerous political conversations and I'm sure he endeavored to keep those respectful. I think he offended people because he spoke the truth, but he didn't incite violence. I mean, this is not Christ is. He commanded his followers to love one another, and he loved them. He gave them extraordinary examples. And the church talks about this often, and we need to look to Christ as an example of how to respond, Jim Bennett, to this situation with love and forgiveness and strength and unity. You make mention about the church, especially recently, has called for unity and a time of being peaceful and respectful. President Nelson has been at the forefront of those admonitions when he spoke about his talk titled Peacemakers Needed, and in there he says this, he says, he gives an example of when he was in the operating room. And I won't go into the details about that, but you can go online and read this for yourself. He says this, even now, decades later, decades later, I find myself wondering if the contaminated scalpel that landed in my arm was any more toxic than the venomous contention that infects our civic dialogue and too many personal relationships today. Civility and decency seem to have disappeared during this era of polarization. And passionate disagreements. He goes on to say that vulgarity, fault-finding, and evil speaking of others are all too common. Too many pundits, he says, and politicians, entertainers, and other influencers throw insults constantly. I'm greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe that it is completely acceptable to condemn, malign, and vilify anyone who does not agree with them. Many seem eager to damage another's reputation with pathetic and pithy barbs. And he goes on to say, anger never persuades. Hostility builds no one. Contention never leads to inspired solutions. Um, he says, regrettably, we sometimes see contentious behavior even within our own ranks. We hear of those who belittle their spouses and children, and of those who use angry outbursts to control others. And of those who punish family members with asylum treatment. We hear of youth and children who bully and employees who defame their colleagues. Uh, it's an extraordinary, uh, uh, talk. Um, and so there's a really important, uh, message to read, listen to, and understand from President Nelson and other leaders of the church. The church, Jim, has got limited influence in the world. We know that. Uh, I think it would like to have more influence. I think it can have more influence. It's a great source of great power of good when it, when most of the time when it's doing all the right things, but it, it can influence its members. It can teach the principles of Christ and remind members regardless of their political views to follow Christ, to love, forgive, show respect., you know, be civil, be kind, and yes, accept that sometimes we're not going to agree. Often we're not going to agree, but let's, let's come together and rally around those universal values and principles that Christ taught of love, you know, loving thy neighbor. Uh, nothing in the event that happened uh, yesterday with Charlie, um, has anything to do with love. Nothing to do with loving thy neighbor or loving God. Comments online, threats, um, inciting others to commit violence, um, damaging someone's reputation, et cetera. Um, has nothing to do with love, nothing to do with Christ, nothing to do with loving God or loving my neighbor. So I, uh, hear what you're saying. I, I, we're at that intersection. Um, it can go either way. It, it could get a lot worse. I hope it doesn't. I'm trying to be optimistic. Uh, my, my nature is to be half full, if you like, rather than half empty. Um, cloudy going sunny instead of, you know, sunny going cloudy. And as I say, I think the church will help lead this and heal people. And Christ was all about healing people, wasn't he? You know, he had an extraordinary capacity for love and forgiveness and healing. And I think The answer is to look to someone like that. And I think President Nelson's comments in that talk are absolutely poignant and very timely for, you know, for this conversation. Jim Bennett, do we know— I know we're coming up to the end of a podcast here— do we know if there's been an official church statement?

There has. There has been an official church statement.

Can you share that with us?

Sure. I'll pull it up. It was issued and it was attributed directly to Doug Anderson as a church spokesman, which I thought was interesting. Following the shooting of an American political commentator, the following statement has been issued, attributable to church spokesman Doug Anderson. Quote, it is with great sadness that we learn of the shooting that took place at Utah Valley University, resulting in the death of Charlie Kirk. Our prayers go out to his family at this time. We condemn violence and lawless behavior. We also pray that we may treat one another with greater kindness, compassion, and goodness. For members of the Church, we reaffirm the Savior's teaching and admonition is to love our neighbor. So I think that's an entirely appropriate statement. Uh, I, I, I'm not as optimistic as you are, Ian. I'm sorry. I, I, I I think that's going to fall on deaf ears for many in the church who, you know, when the peacemaker talk was first given, I was sitting in the choir loft. I was there in person. And I audibly said, thank you, out loud at one moment when President Nelson said, If a person in your ward gets a divorce, or if a young missionary comes home early, or if a teenager doubts his testimony, they do not need your judgment. And I said, thank you. And I listened to the rest of the talk and I thought, this is going to change things. This is going to change the online discourse. This is going to stop the kind of stuff that Captain Mahan Rai is doing. And very quickly, it became clear that all of the people who wanted to justify being cruel and vicious online could find a loophole. The one they seized on was that President Nelson in one sentence said, now I'm not talking about peace at any price, but, and I don't even remember what came after the but, but that was enough. It was like, ah, there's an escape clause. There's a loophole. There's a way I can justify still being an awful, awful, awful person. And I think people will hear that and still find ways to say, well, I'm living a higher law, uh, that it's my job to root out the Jim Bennetts of the church and to tell them they're, they're my enemy. And, you know, I, I, I just— we, we saw this during COVID Again. We saw this when the brethren said, get vaccinated, wear a mask, and a huge chunk of the church said, no, no, we won't do that, and we don't have to do that, and my loyalty is more to my sort of political ideology than it is to the prophet seers and revelators I pretend to sustain. And so, uh, I just, I do not, it does not feel like a safe environment anymore. That's what this is. I mean, this is not an intellectual rational thing. Intellectually, rationally, um, I can see this going in the right direction emotionally. And I don't know if it's spiritually or if it's just my own personal fear. And my own personal reaction to the, to the kinds of vitriol that's been dumped on me. But emotionally, it feels like it's going to go the other way and that it's going to get worse before it gets better. I pray, Ian, that you are right and that I am wrong, and I will just leave it at that. Uh, so I think, uh, do you have any parting thoughts? We're going to keep this short. But I just wanted to get this out there and I felt like we ought to respond to this in a timely fashion.

I want to say that I hope sincerely and pray that our conversation here, um, that we're having right now will help and be understood and seen, interpreted in the spirit in which it is intended. Um, we send our, uh, sympathies and condolence to Charlie and his family. We pray that for unity, love, and understanding, and patience. And as I say, I hope that, um, this conversation helps to heal that, learn lessons from what's happened, and that we do, we, we do go in the right direction from here. We don't have much influence, but I, I think the messages that we've communicated today are really important, and I hope it, um, reminds us of, um, the importance of loving our neighbor and respecting each other's— as President Nelson said in his talk, respecting each other's, uh, others' different opinions. He said that, um, is a fact of life. We have different opinions, And that's okay. So yeah, read that, uh, talk from President Nelson. I think it's a very significant, powerful talk. And I think it's great advice and direction and instruction that we can learn from, from President Nelson's comments. That's all I have to say on that.

Amen. So, uh, with this, we conclude this rather somber episode of Inside Out on that note, but we thank you for joining us and we look forward to visiting with you hopefully on more cheerful subjects on the next episode of Inside Out.