The Church and Suicide

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the assiduous Ian Wilkes. Ian, how are you, sir?

I am doing mighty fine tonight, Jim. How are you?

Good. Do you know what assiduous means?

I think I do, but I've forgotten. Remind me.

It's showing great care and perseverance is what the dictionary says.

I do like that. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you so much.

Here we go. I'm running out of superlatives to apply to you. I could have called you the superlative Ian Wilkes, but—

You could. We need to generate a few so we're ready for future podcasts, but we'll, we'll come up with some real humdingers.

With some humdingers as we go.

As we call them. Yes. Yes.

So, you know, life has been really good on my end since I have stepped away from the cesspool that is Twitter that we talked about in our last episode. So, and it's given me, I think, enough time to think about the topic that we're going to talk about here today. We mentioned this in the last episode, but you in Canada, you were watching the funeral that I went and attended this past week. It was a funeral of Michael Maddox, who was the AP when I got out on my mission. That's when I first met you, actually, because you came down to the mission home to pick up your greenie. Elder Hanson trained me and you were training Elder Casper. And I remember you were there in the room and I just thought you were very exotic. You were an Englishman, you know, and it was like, wow, this is cool. What would it be like to have an English companion? But, but I just was admiring you from afar. But anyway, Elder Maddox was the, the AP, and I didn't really get to know him very well on my mission. But he reached out to me after my mission. He was very impressed with my father and was a very big supporter of my father. And I remember going over to his house for a couple of sort of get-togethers for missionaries and, and just sitting and talking to him. And I— so I got to know him after my mission and was very impressed with him. Just a very bright— I mean, I mean, he was a big guy. Like he was a bear of a man, you know, I mean, he was physically kind of intimidating and, but just the kind of guy that would just grab you and put you in a bear hug. Just, just friendly, kind, gregarious. I mean, I have nothing but positive things to say about him. And so it was devastating to hear they posted in a Facebook group that, that he had passed away., and they very explicitly said that he took his own life, that he passed away as a result of suicide. And you watched the funeral remotely. I attended in person, but they did not shy away from the fact that he, that he committed suicide. You know, if you read the obituary, it doesn't say anything. And I know that when suicide— suicide is a very difficult thing to discuss. It's something that nobody wants to bring up. You know, I've been to funerals of people who've committed suicide before, and it's just not mentioned. They just don't talk about it. And they made the decision, and I think it was a brave and wise decision, to confront it head-on. One of his children spoke. I think it was the son. Was it the son who came home from his mission?

Yeah, he came back from Germany especially to, uh, to speak at the, uh, his dad's funeral, I believe. He got permission to come back. Yes.

Yeah, he came back and the whole talk was about suicide, what it is, what it means, how this doesn't define who he is. And Elder Holland, you know, Matt Holland, we mentioned that in the last podcast. This is not Elder Jeffrey Holland, who's in the Quorum of the Twelve. This is his son, Matthew Holland, who is now a Seventy. And he was Elder Maddox's companion. It was very funny at the beginning of his talk. He said, yeah, I was the senior companion, and that made absolutely no difference to Mike. And he— so we had some very, very lovely personal, personal memories of him. And a lot of his talk was, I think, really uplifting and lovely. But there were also parts of his talk where he actually addressed the suicide that I think raise a lot of questions. And I think this is what we want to talk about. Is that right? I mean, was that your impression?

Yeah, this is certainly the main focus here, I think, of this podcast. I want to talk about, about this because the comments from Elder Holland generate and raise quite a few questions. Just going back to your comments and your experiences, Elder Maddox, you know, when you came out on your mission, Elder Maddox was the AP, I think, at the time. And Matt Holland, I think, was his senior companion, if I'm not mistaken. This is in September 1987, when you came out. I'd met Elder Maddox a few times and had the same experience that you did. I remember the Christmas 1987, um, I think Elder Matt Holland had gone home at that time, and then Elder, uh, Palmer, who we know well, uh, was, uh, the AP companion to Elder Maddox, and they dressed up as elves, and I think President Banks was Santa Claus, and they put on a great show, uh, in the Edinburgh Building there in 1987, and it was amazing. We had so much fun, and, and, uh, I think Elder Palmer was pushing Elder Maddox around on a, a wheelbarrow or some must have been a wheelbarrow come sleigh. It was fun. I mean, there were great missionaries, great leaders, great APs. Months before you arrived, Jim, in the mission, Elder Jacobs and I worked very closely with Matt and Elder Samson, who was Matt's— you won't know Elder Samson. He went on before you came out. And Matt Holland's senior companion as an AP was Elder Samson. They were extraordinary. Missionaries. And Elder Jacobs and I, we had developed some studying, some thinking around the concept of charity. Each month, President Dunn, before President Banks arrived, were focusing on particular topics and subjects that he felt would help advance and accelerate the work. One month was repentance, forgiveness, Hard work was another, I think, uh, focus of a month. And then Elder Jacobs and I had some experiences around charity, about loving, um, the members, the people of Scotland, and, and bringing more love and spirit into the, um, into the lessons. It was, it was actually Elder Jacobs's, uh, leadership actually that, uh, developed this, and we worked closely with Elder Matt Holland. And, and I got to know Matt pretty well Uh, we tracked it, I think, in Edinburgh a couple of times. He was an amazing missionary, very hardworking, very efficient, very kind, and, uh, I looked up to him. I was a relatively new missionary. He was extraordinary. And so I'm, uh, you know, not surprised, uh, that he has, uh, achieved what he has, uh, in his life. And as, and as you mentioned, he was the keynote speaker or the final speaker at Mike Mannix's funeral. A few days ago, and he said many things that were, uh, incredible. I— it was very uplifting. Uh, there were also some things that he said that, uh, generate a lot of questions and some, uh, concerns, I think, for people. And so I just want to quote, uh, what he said at the funeral, because what he said was interesting, and I think it worthy of discussion. And so this is what, uh, this is what he said at the— at Mike Maddox's funeral. Again, prior to this, he'd made some general and, and, and very, um, um, inspiring, uh, remarks. And then he, uh, wanted to reaffirm the church's position. I think this is what he was trying to do, is communicate the church's position on the subject of suicide, a very a very difficult topic, you know, especially for the family and families that have to experience this. He said this, and I think I've got it word for word. I've gone over it twice, and I think I've got it word for word here. He said here, quote, let me affirm another truth. Life is sacred. It needs to be said. It would be wrong for me to leave here today without affirming that the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is clear and straightforward, and it can be summed up in a couple of sentences by the prophets, seers, and revelators. Mortal life is a precious gift from God, a gift that should be valued and protected. It's not right for a person to take his or her own life. However, only God can judge a person's thoughts and actions and level of accountability. So a mistake, uh, has been made, uh, a mistake was made, sorry, and a law was transgressed. And although it is wrong to take one's own life, a person who does so may not be responsible for his or her actions. Only God can fully understand and judge the situation. Um, so I, when I heard that, I, what I got from that was Matt was reaffirming the church's position. I appreciate the comments that, you know, only God can judge. I mean, who knows what's going through someone's heart and mind in that, in that awful state, uh, you know, to, to, to take that kind of action. I can't imagine what someone is going through, Jim, to, you know, to come to that decision that their, you know, life is not worth going on with. But I don't see it. I don't agree with Matt's comments that it was a transgression. Just don't accept that. I used to think that, but I don't accept it anymore. And I don't know if it was a mistake. It's hard to know if it is a mistake. It depends on your perspective. We don't always go through people's— the individual's minds. Um, I've known people who have experienced a very difficult life, uh, people who are traumatized through ill health. Uh, pain, uh, in, in certain conditions of health is so painful, so excruciating, some people feel they don't have the strength to go on. Mentally, emotionally, physically, and they reach a point that I, I, I can't imagine, I can't fully understand, but they reach a point where they just, they just don't have the strength to continue. Is that a mistake? Is that— I don't believe it's transgression. Is it a mistake? I, I don't think so. I think for some it's a relief. Uh, I, I believe that we have a spirit in our body, and I believe that when the spirit leaves the body, that you are pain-free. That's why I've always believed that. I believe that when I was active in the church, I believe it now. I believe that when we put off this mortal coil, that the physical pain that we feel or we might be going through is, is gone. I can't speak to the emotional pain, you know, post-death and things like that. But I believe that there is a— I really believe, Jim, that there's an experience of peace and love and calmness and pain-free experience. And the reason why I believe this is I've met people who I know, only just met, but I've also know people who are for many, many years who've had near-death experiences and their experiences are very common and they've passed beyond the veil and they've One person that I knew had attempted to take their own life, and for some reason they came back, but they came back talking about the experience, and they felt peace and love and kindness of people praying, but the time wasn't up, that God wanted them to remain on this earth for a period of time and to do more work. And so, you know, I believe when we leave our bodies that we don't feel the pain anymore. And is that a mistake? I don't think so. I think for some it's a relief. So I was, and I had mixed feelings and thoughts about Elia Holm's comments. I can understand what he was doing and why he was doing it. And, you know, I appreciate that. There's somebody else as well that I won't mention his name, somebody I know pretty pretty well. He'd lost somebody in his life very dear to him. It was inconsolable. It was a traumatizing experience. He was experiencing like a dark night of the soul. He was contemplating suicide and he didn't reach that end point. Of course, he didn't go through with it, but he did think about it. He had arranged to meet with the temple president. I won't mention this temple president's name or the person's name. As he met with him in the car, in the car, late night, midnight, in the London temple grounds in England, he poured out his soul. He was incredibly emotional, distraught and perhaps not even making sense to the temple president, but he talked about whether it was worth continuing or not, or whether he should take his life. And the temple president said, you have no authority to take your life, and that if you do, God will not take you into his bosom. He will not take you into the celestial kingdom. And those who take their own lives is like taking someone else's life. He's like, murdering yourself. And so you will not make the— he told this person they will not make the celestial kingdom or the terrestrial kingdom, and they would be in the celestial kingdom, and that they will be damned, their soul will be damned if they took their own life. So the good news is that this person didn't go through with it or didn't take it any further. But I don't think that conversation with the temple president really helped. And I do not believe, Jim, or accept that— I always felt this when I was in the church, by the way, even though I was a missionary or serving as a bishop or the stake president, there's no time in my 35 years of the church, 37 years of the church, where I felt that, um, someone taking their life translated into them, um, being in the celestial kingdom or terrestrial kingdom. I just never believed that or accept that at all. So I, I just don't accept, um, uh, you know, Matt was just reaffirming the church's position I don't know if he thinks or feels or accepts the church's position. He probably does, 'cause he kind of talked about that and as though it was his own position. But that's not my position. I just don't buy that. I think if you take your own life, I think there is, I believe only God really knows what's happening in your heart and mind and will, will judge accordingly. But I do not believe they don't, uh, that they won't be with the farmers forever. I know that people in the church, many people in the church believe that if a family member, Jim Bennett, takes their own life, that they will not be with that person in the celestial kingdom. And therefore, why, uh, would they, uh, want to be in the celestial kingdom without the parent. Elder Ballard, in his talk in October 1987— this is a month after you came out on mission— his talk was October 1987. He gave a talk called Suicide: Some Things We Know and Some We Do Not. He talked about a man that he knew who had taken his life, and the son approached him and and they had the conversation about whether his dad was gonna be in the celestial kingdom or not. And he didn't want to be in the celestial kingdom. You know, why would we wanna be somewhere where our father isn't or our mother isn't? So I just don't buy or accept that, you know, someone taking their own life is, is made a mistake or it's a transgression as Matt Holland said, or that they won't make it into, into heaven or into the kingdom of God. So, Those comments with Matt, I, I, I left those comments feeling mixed. Uh, I know Matt quite well. I know he's an extraordinary, wonderful individual. He obviously thinks and believes the same thing. I just don't share that position.

No, I don't blame you. I, I, I'm sort of in the same place, but I'm also I'm processing it from the point of view that depression is something that runs in my family, and it's something that I have struggled with throughout my life. I have never been suicidal per se. I have had many times, many moments where I wished I was dead. But that's sort of a different thing. I mean, you know, when I, when I talk to people who, who are genuinely suicidal, they talk about making plans. They talk about actually taking action and, and setting, setting it up so that they can do that. And I've never ever been there. I've never ever said, okay, well, now I, I'm going to take my own life. I've just been to the point where, geez, I just, life would be so much easier for everybody if I were just gone because I'm so miserable and so worthless. This is something that I firmly believe is a medical problem. It's something that I have had treated medically and that, at least at this point in my life, is under control. I don't think I am a depressed individual right now. But I do take medication. I do. I mean, this is— and I'm reluctant to talk about this because when we were on our missions particularly, there was such a stigma attached to this. The idea of saying that you were depressed or you are mentally ill. You know, I've run for office a number of times and I remember thinking, I can't really get treated for depression because if people find out 'cause I'd always kind of wanted to run for office. And if they find out that I'm being treated for depression, I mean, there was a presidential candidate back in the '70s, or a vice presidential candidate, McGovern, who ran against Nixon, had a vice presidential candidate. I can't even remember his name, but he was dropped from the ticket when it was found out that he had received treatment for depression. And that's how big the stigma was back then. And now that stigma has lessened somewhat, but I firmly believe that I was deeply depressed for certainly the first 6 months of my mission. I was absolutely miserable. I wanted to go home. I just hated getting up in the morning. I hated everything about it. There was a girl that I was dating that I wanted to go back to and All of this kind of stuff weighed really heavily on me. And as my Wishing went on, I think it was when I became a Senior Companion, it was all of a sudden, okay, I'm a Senior Companion. I'm— I've got to be in charge and I've got to focus on helping my Junior Companion. And that's when things sort of turned around. I don't think I ever fully shook it off completely. But I was able to kind of just plow through. And there was enough that was happening that was uplifting, that was inspiring, that I look back on my mission with really nothing but fondness at this point, because a lot of the pain, a lot of the depression, a lot of that kind of stuff, I just don't really revisit it. I don't really think about it. But there was one thing I remember very clearly. I remember listening to a talk by Elder Gene R. Cook. And the reason this talk was so memorable is this is the talk, if you recall, where he talks about getting on an airplane with Mick Jagger. You remember that talk? Did you hear that talk?

I remember.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was the talk that made me come home from my mission and break all my Rolling Stones records.

Right.

I seriously did. I broke them all because Mick Jagger's music is calculated to drive the kids to sex. And as time has gone on and I think back to that conversation, I don't know what actually happened. I mean, there are people who think that Elder Cook made it up. I don't think he made it up, but I think he's framing it in a way that makes him the hero. And as time has gone on, I've tried to imagine being Mick Jagger sitting next to some religious zealot who wants to talk to me about the Book of Mormon, what would I say? And I can imagine I would say the most inflammatory things possible to get his— get a rise out of him. I mean, you're stuck next to this guy for a full flight. But that isn't the part of the talk that I'm— that I'm focusing on here now. That talk focused on the idea of despair. Says the world— people in the world are in despair. And suffer from despair. That's the word he kept using. And as I was listening to the talk, I thought, oh, maybe this talk can help because despair kind of describes how I felt for a good chunk of my mission. And he got to a line, he dug out a verse in the Book of Mormon, and it's— I don't know the specific chapter and verse. I don't even want to look it up because it It's just not a good memory. But he says it's right near the end when the, the Lamanites are killing all the Nephites, and the Nephites, um, have what they call the sorrowing of the damned because God will no longer allow them to take pleasure in sin. But anyway, there's one verse that says despair cometh because of iniquity. And he said, now, you may not feel iniquitous if you're in despair, but that's really where all despair comes from. And I remember hearing that and going, boy, that's really helpful. Thanks. I've spent my entire mission trying to, to lift myself up enough out of this despair, and you're telling me the reason I'm feeling the despair is because I'm just a piece of crap, you know. And, and that kind of thinking is still pervasive in the church. The idea that if you, you know, we have so many scriptures that attribute your emotional and mental state to your righteousness. You know, how many times have we been quoted, wickedness never was happiness? So if I'm not happy, what does that mean? Well, it means you're somehow wicked. And the idea that, that there's a medical problem here, that the despair— I mean, I've had people describe it as saying your brain is trying to kill you. Your brain is telling you life is not worth living. You've got to find ways to, to shut that down, to keep your brain from doing that. And one of the ways to do that is medication, and it's very helpful. I mean, this is, this is every bit as debilitating a physical disease as cancer, as the kinds of diseases that generate tremendous sympathy. You know, if somebody says, hey, I have cancer, you fall all over yourself to say, oh, what can I do to help? And oh my goodness, and you don't deserve this. But if you say, hey, I'm depressed and I don't think life is worth living, there is a contingent in the church that tells you, well, geez, that's your fault. Geez, you're not very righteous. Geez, you haven't done enough stuff on this. And the guy who has done, I think, the most to turn that around is Matt Holland's father. Jeffrey Holland gave an absolutely beautiful talk about mental illness where he talked about the fact that this— he laid out everything I've just said. It's a physical problem. It is not a measure of your righteousness. And, and that strain of the church has, I think, gathered some steam. Elder Uchtdorf said much the same thing in his talk when he gave a talk on happiness. And he says, I'm not talking about mental illness.

I'm—

because mental illness is real. Mental illness needs to be treated. Mental illness cannot be prayed away. You know, so, so the church, I think, has come a long way in terms of acknowledging the reality of mental illness. But you still have exactly what Matt Holland said at this funeral, which is this sort of doctrine that suicide is murder. And the more I think about that, I mean, I'm in total agreement with you because murder, The way I understand murder, you know, we're told in The Pearl of Great Price that the great secret of Master Mahan Cain, the first murderer, is that I may murder and get gain. You know, we have scriptures that talk about the idea that the reason murder is so awful is because it's done in order for me to get something. And by doing it, I take away the life of somebody else. There's a great movie, Clint Eastwood movie called Unforgiven, where he says it's a terrible thing to kill a man. You take away everything he's got and everything he's ever gonna have. You know, that's murder. Murder is something that you do that is evil and wicked because you're trying to get something. Um, suicide, suicide isn't that at all, at all. I mean, you're killing yourself and nobody is killing themselves for some kind of unrighteous purpose. They're killing themselves because they think the world will be better off without them. They think, I mean, they're, they're in so much pain. I mean, depression is pain. You wake up in the morning and you just, you, you don't want to get out of bed and you're just miserable. I mean, it's, it's almost physical pain and certainly a mental pain. It's anguish. And suicide is an attempt to stop the pain. There is nobody that is committing suicide for the reasons people commit murder. There is nobody that does that. I don't think in the history of the world has there ever been anybody that has ever done that. So I, I've heard it described. I remember there was one funeral I went to in Los Angeles. Guy had— I'm not going to mention names here, but been too long, and I don't know if the family would want me to discuss it, but this was a guy who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, and he left behind a pregnant wife. He didn't have any kids, but he— I don't think he even knew his wife was pregnant. And it was just absolutely devastating. And I remember talking to someone afterwards And I thought it was actually a lovely funeral because they addressed the fact it was a suicide. And, and one of the people who gave the eulogy said, some people die from other illnesses and some people die from depression, and framed it as this was just a natural result of an illness. And this is sometimes how this illness— some people are able to recover from cancer. And survive. Some people are able to recover from depression and survive, but some are not. And I remember one of these people I talked to was like, boy, I hated that. Like, what do you mean you hated that? And they said, well, if somebody's like thinking about suicide, they would like think that that funeral gave them the green light. Say, oh geez, well go ahead and commit suicide cuz you won't get punished for it. And I thought, do you realize just how desperate you have to be to take your own life? Do you really think that the threat of eternal punishment is going to say, oh, well, wait a minute, I better not do this because I'm going to get punished? I mean, you're not thinking clearly. You don't have the capacity to do that. Once you reach that point where you're willing to take your own life, you're not thinking clearly enough that some kind of ecclesiastical punishment is going to be a roadblock to killing yourself. It's— I mean, so it's just nuts. So the fact that the church still pushes that at all, uh, I think is just— it's, it's a holdover from a less enlightened time. It's a holdover from the idea when everybody thought every kind of depression was the result of iniquity, was the result of wickedness. And we know that's not true anymore. So we've discarded a big chunk of that garbage. We ought to discard all of it. I mean, does that match with your thinking here?

It does. It Again, we, we're looking for leadership on this. We're looking for the apostles, apostles level to speak at this, at the conference. Let's address it. Let's talk about Ella Holland's talk on it was amazing actually. Uh, I, I think we need to talk more about suicide, not less. It's a plague. It's, uh, affects everybody, every age, every walk of life, every culture. Uh, it's a disease. Talking about it openly with people that we love and trust, you know, can help us. And there isn't enough discussion on this, Jim, in the church. There isn't enough conversation and direction and guidance, leadership from the top. There isn't enough— there is no professional or formal training for bishops or stake presidents to deal with mental health-related issues across the stake and across the wards. There is some, but it's not enough. Bishops often, including myself and stake presidents, most often than anything, they talk about, you know, if you pray and you have more faith and you serve, depression will go and will lift. President Nelson, he and many other apostles and prophets, they talk about living with exactness, the need to live with complete obedience to be on the covenant path. They've made endless comments, quotes, references to the covenant path. You know, go to the temple, Let the temple go through you. Live with exactness. Live every principle. Only then can you find happiness and security. Only then will you be able to get in the celestial kingdom. But you will not get there unless you live with exactness. President Nelson said this. He said, nothing opens the heavens quite like the combination of increased purity, exact obedience, earnest seeking daily, feasting on the works of Christ in the Book of Mormon, and regular time committed to temple and family history work. I forgot how many times President Dunn— more than President Banks, thank goodness President Banks arrived when he did— but President Dunn talked about living with exactness. It's one of the monthly topics. Hard work, live with exactness. It was a very prescribed set of rules when President Dunn was there up until July. It was very prescriptive. You had to write everything down. Every week you had to call in, every night you had to call in your stats to the district leaders. Every week you had to do like a report. You had a checklist. What was it called?

I can't remember.

Remember, there was a checklist that you had to get up and you had to do all these regular things. You had the regular missionary checklist, but under Don, President Don, They gave us additional checklists to check that you live with exactness. And for example, President Dunn for 2, 3 months did away with P-days. We couldn't have a P-day. We could go and do our washing and write letters during, you know, during the doing our clothes. But once we're done, back to work because the numbers went up and taking a day off to relax and slacken the bow, you know, the string of the bow. It wasn't obedience, it wasn't with exactness. And Elder Carl C. Acey called him, uh, one of my companions. His dad was a mission president. He wrote to his dad and said, hey, we're working on P-days now. And his dad, who was a mission president, uh, wrote to President Dunn and wrote to Carl C. Acey. I, I think that's what happened. And Elder Acey, uh, rebuked President Dunn. I said, you can't, you can't have the missions work on a peely. They need a break. Uh, you know, the, the, my trainer came to me with serious mental health issues. He'd had a nervous, uh, nervous breakdown 2 months before he got to me in Dumfries, 1987. When I was with him, Jim, it was shaking all the time in the lesson discussions. It was an absolute physical, emotional, and, uh, in a terrible mental state. I won't mention his name out of respect, but he was in an awful state. You know, the church teaches live with exactness. Uh, if you have— even now they teach it— uh, if you have despair or depression, um, it could be attributed to transgression, like not living right, or you're not praying right, you're not getting answers to your prayer. Uh, it's you, you're the problem, there's something not right in your life. Living the gospel guarantees peace and happiness. And here's the thing, if you're doing everything right, living with exactness, and you're still not happy, still got depression, that makes it worse. It's like saying to somebody on the streets, Merry Christmas, who's homeless, right? It's Christmas. You're supposed to feel good at Christmas. Everybody feels good at Christmas, or so we think, right? And you don't feel good at Christmas, And it makes you worse, makes you feel more shitty because you're supposed to feel good and you don't and you can't control it. And, um, and you can't control it because it's, it's a mental health issue that you cannot control. And the doctrine and the live with exactness and the obedience and the covenants, they just don't make enough room for, you know, people with that, with mental health. And there's not enough support for, you know, people with mental health. I've got some stats here on suicide in the US because there's a, you know, there's a relationship between, I believe, between religious doctrine, not just exclusive to, you know, the Mormon faith, but religious doctrine and other doctrines of the world and pressures of life and how that leads to suicide. With different people. So this is information in the US that this is— you've got the same information in Scotland, by the way, England and Australia. Each country provides information on suicide. But here's some information in the US. He says, and this is for 2021, it's not the most up to date, but it's not far off. Age-adjusted suicide rate in 2021 in the US was 14.4% per 100,000 individuals. In 2021, men died by suicide 3.9, so almost 4 times more than women. On average, there are 132 suicides per day. Again, that's 2021. White males accounted for nearly 70%, 69% of suicide deaths in 2021. And there's a whole bunch of stats there. So, you know, suicide, mental health is an issue. It's growing, it's getting, becoming more of a problem. We're living in a world of increased uncertainty, politically, geopolitically, nations are at war. Iran and Israel have kicked off, Russia wreaking havoc, threatening the world with nuclear Armageddon. There's increased division. It's hard to have a civil dialogue on politics or even religion these days. We're all seeing more divide. There's some great things happening in the world. I'm not trying to ignore that, but there are a lot of pressures in the world, you know, to make a living, to provide, uh, your business if it fails, or relationship fails, or, you know, people fall into drugs and, um, they don't seem to be able to, you know, uh, get out of it. They certainly can't get out of it themselves. And my question is for the church is, what is the church doing internally to help that deal with mental health? Why is it not training stake presidents and bishops? Why is it not providing enough resources with professionals coming into the, into the, um, uh, into the church, uh, rather help members of the church deal with mental health issues? Why can't it provide guarantees that what you share in an interview with a mental health professional in the church doesn't get to the stake president or, um, or the bishop? Because that's why people don't open up because they're afraid the state president's going to hear about it, or the bishop's going to hear about it, it might get back to the family or a friend. It's so difficult to talk about. You know, who can you trust? And then me being as a bishop, a state president, there's so many issues that I— we've talked about this. I just didn't know what to do. I just felt so inadequate and so little support. And I still think the church has got a long way to go to deal with this. And, um, and it has to change that frankly shitty doctrine on teaching that suicide is murder. Suicide is transgression. Suicide translates to not being with your family in the next life, which is awful. Suicide means that you can't get into the self kingdom. Suicide means that you are not going to be, uh, in heaven. And you know what you were saying earlier, I thought was pretty profound. And just to add to what you were saying earlier about what you have to be thinking, Jim, when you get into that state. I just can't imagine. In, in some way, um, and I'm not sure if you see it like this, but it takes a great deal of courage and bravery. People use the word coward and, you know, use a coward way out, or, you know, he just gave in, or just wasn't strong enough, and he, he failed, or she failed. Um, I don't see it like that. I just see desperation, um, and, and in some people who have thought about it and calculated it, it, it, it's, it's in some form, in some way, it's like it's a form of courage or bravery. I mean, I, I'm not, you know, I, I just, I just, I just can't, um, imagine that the, the, the in one way, in one perspective, the courage that one needs to take their own life, you know, it would terrify me. You know, I can't even contemplate it. And so there are so many different perspectives, you know, and everyone who goes through that, I think that's unique to them. But I do believe that God takes all that into account. The Christ that I know and believe and understand, who's in the New Testament, is incredibly forgiving and kind and will greet these individuals with openness. And I believe firmly that, you know, they will be with their families after the next life. I think it's quite arrogant, actually, for any religion to make the judgment that you're not going to be with, you know, a loved one who's taken their own life. I think that's incredibly disrespectful. I think it's offensive. And I think it's very arrogant to make such a judgment. Who are we to judge something like that? Right? You know, when you've got family members, you know, desperately hanging on to the hope that they'll see the father who's just taken the light. So in regards to Mike Maddox, who we both know and loved, who was an extraordinary missionary, I believe, and I'm sure you do, we will see him again. And Matt did say that, by the way. So just going back to Matt's comments there, I think Elder Holland did say that we will see him. I think he said that we will hug him and, uh, we will love him and, and, uh, you know, we will be with him. And, and I, uh, I believe that, and I believe that will be in the, in heaven, uh, you know, in the kingdom of God. Uh, whether that's the celestial kingdom or not, I've got my own opinions on the different kingdoms, but, uh, I believe that we'll be with these, uh, extraordinary individuals. I've heard so many things, experienced so many things, seen many things. Heard so many experiences to, to know independently that, uh, there is a God, that there is a power and energy beyond life, that, uh, we have a spirit in our body, that the love that we have for each other transcends the, uh, you know, the, the barriers of, of death, more powerful than death, and that we'll be with each other forever. It sounds like I'm bearing my testimony, and I guess I am, because, um, I do believe these things. I'm not in the church, but I still have a testimony of these things, Jim, and I believe that, you know, we can be with, with each other, our loved ones, our families forever, even, you know, regardless of if someone takes their own life or not. Each soul is precious. I'm really grateful to talk about this. Something that I've wanted to discuss for quite some time. I just think the church can do more. I applaud it for what it is doing. Yes, acknowledge the good. You know, that it is doing. And I just want to just add one more thought, if I may. And we talked about this at the beginning, and I think it's important to highlight and remind our listeners that, you know, the Inside Out podcast is a podcast that is— the intent or objective is to look at the church in a very balanced way, you know, look at all the amazing things that the church does, and it does extraordinary things. In the church, with the members in the church. And it also has lots of issues that we talk about as well. It's getting that balance. And when we— one of the podcasts that we posted, not the last one, I think the one before was on conference, was a comment made by one of your friends that I thought was a beautiful comment, and I did respond to it.

Um, comment you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah. And I just want to highlight this because, again, I just want to highlight, if Diana is listening to this, but anybody—

I'm not— we're not going to use her last name, but, uh, Diane— I've known Diana for over 30 years. She was an actor up in Jackson Hole when I ran a theater up there, and then I got to know her. Uh, she's one of the most talented human beings I've ever met. She's an extraordinary actress. She's got the most beautiful singing voice you have ever heard in your entire life. Just, just stunning. But all that pales in comparison to her character. She is just one of the kindest, most genuine, most thoughtful people I know. So I want to frame that from the outset. This is a comment from somebody who I have a great deal of love and respect for.

And I appreciate adding that because that background context is really important. So we did this podcast 2 weeks ago, I think, on conference. We gave our opinions on conference and we perhaps lean, maybe, perhaps, I don't know, to more the negative side of conference. I think that's what we did. You might disagree with that. And so we generated comments and I think comments and feedback is always welcome. You know, the critical comments and the good comments. Everything's welcome because that's how we learn from each other, right? And is it Diane? I think it's Diane. Diana, sorry, Diana. She said this, I just, of course, I just listened to the first 24 minutes. This is that podcast we give them, the conference, general conference. I just listened to the first 24 minutes and got kind of depressed. She puts a sad smile, sad face icon there, emoji. Temples have taken on a new significance for me as a source of strength. And joy to members. And I think it's spectacular that the Church has shifted, encouraging members to go as soon as they are ready rather than trying it to— tying it to a mission or marriage, and making the temple more accessible by building more temples regardless of how the membership is thriving there. She goes on to say the temple is as much for the here and now is it is for eternity, in my opinion. Hmm, she says. I will, I'll finish listening to this episode and I'm interested to hear Ian's thoughts and the remainder of the discussion. I just want to say that if I had not watched and listened to the conference myself, your description of it would have left me with a very bleak view of the church. So I really appreciate and value that feedback from someone here that you know very well. And for me, and I did comment on this, it reminded me, and I wanna highlight this, of the goodness and greatness that the church does. And, you know, for many in the church, most, going to the temple brings peace and joy. Living the covenant path for many brings peace and joy. The whole range of doctrines and teachings that the church maintains and continues, brings a great deal of peace and joy. And I, speak for myself, I forget, and Diana reminded me, I forget that there's a wonderful, there's another side, if you like, to sometimes when we see something, we see sometimes the negative side of it. And because we hear often lots of negative things. But there's another side to the same coin. You know, going to the temple, the covenant path, et cetera. There's another side to that, and this is what Diana is talking about, and it brings her a great joy. And I'd— it's easy to forget that, especially with me being outside the church and not being in the church. It's easy to forget that, uh, something that the church does can be criticized, but for many it's actually a blessing. And I just wanna kind of highlight that because our podcast is all about balance, perspective, respect, acknowledging, as we say, the wonderful good that the church does, and it does extraordinary good. I mean, very quick, the temple for me was a source of mental stress. It— the pre-1990 temple endowment terrified me. I had nightmares. It was graphic. It was awful. I, I, I, it traumatized me. I think we talked about this on the podcast. I always felt uncomfortable mostly going to the temple. It didn't inspire me or uplift me. That doesn't mean to say that it doesn't uplift or inspire other people. So everybody's different. We all have different perspective. What could be seen as being a problem for someone or difficulty for someone or mental health-related issue for some, uh, isn't for others. And I, I just wanted to highlight that because it's important that we see, uh, both sides of the coin.

Oh, I appreciate you sharing that. I appreciate, uh, I know that Diana listens to the podcast and listens to it thoughtfully, and so I— her words carry a great deal of weight with me as well. And I, I don't think my temple experience has been as negative as yours has, but I don't think it's as positive as Diana's is. I don't naturally sort of gravitate to the temple in the way that I think so many members of the church do. And that so many of the members of the church are able to find the kind of peace and the kind of relief that Diana is describing there. I thought it was really interesting too that Elder Uchtdorf at this last conference, I mean, one of the things that I have a problem with in some church teachings is this idea that only Latter-day Saints know what joy is. Only living the covenant path, only going to the temple, only the— that is the only way that you can feel joy. And there are several talks that say that. President Nelson gave a talk like that before he was President of the Church. He's given talks as President of the Church, that sort of reinforce that idea. Elder Uchtdorf this last conference very subtly said that's not true. He said, you know, and I said, I'm aware of people who do not believe in God or people who have another faith that say they find joy in other things. And I was waiting for kind of the zinger where he would say, well, they're wrong, you know, but he didn't. He says, I respect their position. And he said, we have a world where our Heavenly Father has provided us with art and beauty and nature and all these wonderful, beautiful things, all of which inspire joy. And I thought, thank you. Thank you so very much for acknowledging the fact that our Heavenly Father loves all of us. You know, as you keep talking about, okay, I don't believe they're going to end up in lower kingdoms, uh, I keep coming back to my idea that I think it represents sort of the central theological tension in the Restoration almost from the very beginning. Of the Restoration. And that's this tension that we've talked about between universality and exclusivity. Because I firmly believe that even if somebody lives a life that falls short to the point where they're not able to make it back to the celestial kingdom, I believe that eternity is a very, very, very long time, and eventually they get to where they need to be. And I also believe that heaven is not heaven if all of my loved ones are not there. So even if I am the most righteous man who has ever lived and I go straight to the celestial kingdom, if my kids aren't there, if my friends aren't there, if my parents aren't there, it's not— that's not heaven to me. That's— I mean, I watched— there was this— well, not a member of the church. There was this, uh, there's a Twitter account called Christian Nightmares that finds videos of really extremist Christians saying weird things. And they found this video of a guy saying that if you're in heaven and your kid is in hell, you're going to be so purified and righteous that you won't even be able to see them. You won't even be able to know that they exist in hell because that will be so far removed from your— and I thought, how on earth is that heaven? I'm not even going to be able to see my child. I'm not even going to be able to know that I'm going to forget they ever existed. And I'm supposed to look at that and think, geez, that's what I want. Send me to hell. I'd much rather go to hell. You know, that's the David Archuleta, who is the— he was a big, big celebrity in the Church when he was the runner-up on American Idol 15 or so years ago. And he's a beautiful singer. He's from Murray, Utah. He went on a mission. The only time I've ever seen him live was at elder Ballard's wife's funeral, Barbara Ballard's funeral. And he sang the closing song and it was beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. And he came out as queer about a year ago and insisted that he was bisexual and then kind of said, no, really, I'm gay. I'm a gay man and I'm never going to get married to a woman. And he met with leaders of the church and they told him, what we need to do is just find you a nice girl. And he said, no, no, that's not going to work. And he left the church and he did so with a great deal of dignity, I thought, or as much dignity as you can, because they don't let you leave with dignity, but immediately got piled on by all of the people that piled on to me on Twitter. I mean, all of those guys that insist you can't leave the church and you can't have happiness outside the church. Well, he just released a song called Hell Together. That's actually a heartbreaking and beautiful song. If you haven't heard it, go find it. And he said, he said, he was quoting his mother because his mother left the church. And his mother said, okay, I'm leaving the church to support you because if you're going to hell, I'm going to go ahead, go to hell with you and we'll go to hell together. The whole song is about the idea of paradise is pressure. We'll go to hell together. And some people in the church have listened to that song and said, you know, he's just quoting Joseph Smith because Joseph Smith says if we all go to hell and turn the devils out and make a heaven out of it. And that's kind of where my faith is now too. And, you know, I just think when we put limits on God's mercy, when we put limits on all those things, I'm just not willing to do that anymore. I firmly believe that Michael Maddox, all the good and beautiful things he did in his life, and they were legion, there were so many, and his children clearly love him and all of these people. All of that goodness did not vanish when he took his own life. And all of that goodness will weigh in the balance going forward. And all of us who loved him will have the opportunity to be with him in the next life. I firmly believe that. And I think that's the essence of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm really grateful for this conversation. I hope many people listen to this. I, uh, will remember my Maddox with great fondness and great respect. He brought out the best in the missionaries. He brought out the best in me. It's true what they say, you know, Jim, that we remember people for how they make us feel. And Elder Mike Maddox made me feel good about who I was. And, uh, had confidence in me as a missionary. He was a great man and a wonderful father and husband. And I know, I agree with Mahon, that we will see him and, and we will, uh, we will hug him and we'll be reunited as friends. What a great individual, great extraordinary man he was. Um, to those, uh, to everyone who's listening, If you are struggling with mental health issues, or you know somebody struggling with mental health issues, please go speak to someone. There are people out there that you can connect with, a friend, a loved one, who will listen, I'm sure. It's just giving them that opportunity to be able to help. I think Mike Maddocks suffered in silence, as so many did, Jim. And that's heartbreaking to go through that alone, um, and then to, uh, to, you know, to end in that way. But if our listeners are struggling or they need help, uh, please, um, speak to someone. Or if you, if you see someone struggling and you, uh, you, you feel that they need help, um, help them. It's, it's, it's better to ruffle a few feathers, you know, to find out if someone is struggling than to, you know, lose someone to suicide. So the helpline is out there and we need each other. We, we can't get through this life without each other. So be that person who helps. And again, if yourself or as Alice, as an expert in this, please get the help that you need because there is help out there. Jim, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been very thoughtful and incredibly humbling, and I appreciate the time that we've had together this evening to talk about this.

As do I. Thank you very much. Your thoughts have been very helpful, and hopefully they can help somebody. If there's just one person out there who's been struggling, uh, and this podcast can help them in any way, then it will have been worth it. So let's, let's leave, leave it at that. And, uh, thank you all for listening, and we look forward to seeing you next time on Inside Out. Thank you very much, Ian.

Thank you, Jim.