The Church Defenders Who Attack the Church

Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out. My name is Jim Bennett, and I am here as always with Captain Moroni himself. No, you're Nephi. Himself. Uh, anyway, Ian Wilkes is here as always. Ian, how are you, sir?

I'm doing real well today, Jim.

How are you? I'm doing fine. You're not upset that I put your head on Nephi's body and had you shaking?

No, I actually quite liked it. It makes me look really good and, uh, kind of, uh, rippling with muscle. So that's great.

So there you go. Well, I, I made myself into Abinadi who was also rippling with muscles even though he is 200 years old. We look really good.

That was fun. Your talent in the AI animated area is impressive.

I have to say, well, it's, they're a lot of fun to make. And for those of you who are listening to this, who don't know what we're talking about, uh, I've started making these sort of reels and snippets about episodes and posting them. I'm a little nervous that, uh, they won't be as good as the last one because the last one I put Ian's head on Nephi's body and I put Steven Peinecker's head on Captain Moroni's body and I, And, uh, and it took a lot longer than it should have. So anyway, but, uh, but this is a great chance to remind everybody that we have a Facebook page. And we also, if you want to contact us or give us feedback, we also have an email address. Send your, your feedback to insideoutfeedback@gmail.com. We would love to hear from you. We're getting some great Uh, and Ian, there's one guy who was attacking me on Twitter, or attacking me on YouTube actually. And, uh, I said, well, you gotta come say that to my face cuz you're anonymous. And he says, I'm not anonymous. I have 300 videos where I use my name and I would love to come on your podcast. So we may have a guy on our podcast that really doesn't like me, but I think it might be too much fun to— Oh, let's do it.

Let's, let's do it. You know, Yeah, we, our podcast is respectful. It's kind. People have different opinions on things. Absolutely. Bring them on. Let's have a conversation. Uh, we've got a lot of feedback from different people saying, uh, like including the last one with Steve Pynaker, where people have said that it's great that 3 people can come together with very different opinions on like the Book of Mormon, for example, and have an adult mature conversation and still come away with similar opinions. And that's who we are as a podcast. We, safe, we're respectful. If you have a different opinion and you're not happy with us or you're angry, fine, come on. We won't argue, nothing like that, but we're happy to have a mature debate and discussion and, you know, maybe we leave as friends. Who knows?

Maybe. Very, very cool. Well, so I'm sounding very genial, but I'm really, I'm really quite upset, to be honest. And, uh, I, I think the podcast we're going to do now, uh, is exceptionally important. And, uh, I, I think it's going to maybe be somewhat divisive. And I hope not to get too heated. I'm certainly not going to get heated with you because I don't think this is going to be divisive between you and me. But there is a huge problem in the church., that is manifest by an event that happened this past week. And, and I, as we've talked about this in preparing this episode, I mean, you, you know the broad strokes of it, but the video I'm about to play for it is something you have never seen, correct?

That's correct.

Okay, so what I'm going to play for you is a video that I, I'm amazed that it's still up. I had to find it in the deep dark corners of Twitter because the entire presentation is no longer online. And, um, Fair Mormon— I'm sorry, Fair Latter-day Saint is what they call themselves now— um, has, has taken down the videos and asked people to take down their videos. So, uh, the fact that I found this, maybe I'm, I'm, I don't know if I'm going to be in trouble for playing it. But anyway, um, Aaron Sherinian, who is the director of communications for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and who is some— who is also— we've talked about this. I have a personal connection to Aaron Sherinian. I love Aaron Sherinian because I got to know him not as the magnificent communications professional that he is, But as the Bishop of the Arlington Second Ward, which is the ward in which my father lived and, and, and in which he died, that we went back to DC for 3 weeks after my father suffered a massive stroke and, uh, stood by his bedside. And Aaron Sherinian was there, if not every day, pretty much almost every day. Either Aaron was there or his wife Emily was there. Helping us, ministering to us, bringing us tacos. The night my father died, Bishop Sherinian came and sat with the family, cried with the family. This is a lovely, lovely man and a devoted disciple of Jesus Christ, and indeed an exceptionally qualified person for the job he now holds. Uh, he has had all kinds of positions I would go so far as to say there is not a person on earth, in or out of the Church, who is a better communications professional than Aaron Sherinian, and the Church is tremendously blessed to have him in this position. Now, uh, most people will probably remember that when he was hired, there were things that were found in his social media that showed that he is an LGBTQ ally. And he's never attacked the church, he's never attacked the Family Proclamation, but he has expressed love for LGBTQ people, which in my estimation, and clearly in the estimation of the people who hire and hired and employ him, is not disqualifying for being a representative of the church. I know of no covenant where I'm supposed to trash LGBTQ people. Quite the opposite. But regardless of that, this set off a huge firestorm at the time that he was hired, and that has died down somewhat, but it was reignited this past week when Bishop Sherinian, Brother Sherinian, was called upon to speak at the FAIR conference. So FAIR, Latter-day Saints conducts an annual conference. I was once asked to speak at it right after my CES letter reply was, was published, but, uh, I was going on vacation and wasn't able to go. But they, they, they are the probably preeminent— I don't think there's any probably about it. They are the preeminent apologetic organization. In support of the church. Um, they do a lot of great research, uh, they've done a lot of wonderful things. And if you have any questions about the church, they have an encyclopedic, uh, back, you know, back end where you can find essentially any kind of research or any kind of discussion about the church, about difficult church topics. They're criticized very often because they They, they, they are accused of sort of glossing over difficult topics. I don't think that's a fair criticism. I think that people who make that criticism largely just don't like the answers that FAIR is providing or don't find them persuasive, which is different from saying that they're not really vigilant in terms of providing them. But regardless, that's not what we want to talk about. So Aaron Shiranian is called upon to deliver the keynote address at the FAIR conference and delivered the address. Uh, it's been featured in the Deseret News. You can find snippets and excerpts. I have not been able to see the entire address, but from the parts that I have seen, it was absolutely masterful. He talked about being a disciple of Jesus Christ and how important it is to speak up about being a disciple of Jesus Christ. And how important it is that we use our voice and we be— I mean, there was nothing he said that wasn't absolutely in line with the teachings of the church and wasn't an absolutely brilliant presentation of those teachings. Aaron Sherinian, there isn't anybody better when it comes to communicating the principles of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, which is why The prophets, seers, and revelators who hired him continue to sustain him in that position. So the controversy begins when there is a Q&A led by Scott Gordon, the president of Fair Latter-day Saint, and he is questioning Aaron Sherinian. And I'm going to play you the question that has caused all of the consternation. And, and so, Ian, should I play you the question and get your response to the question, or do you want me to play both the question and the full answer?

Do the question and the full answer.

Okay. So this is 4 minutes. So it's, it's, it's a little lengthy. It's not just a short snippet, but I think it's important that everybody out there hear both the question and Aaron Sherinian's answer. Here it is. So that brings up our next question, and this is a much more difficult question. So when you first came on board the church, there was a lot of online flak, should we say, and people even— I've gotten a few questions here asking directly whether or not you support the Family Proclamation. And, uh, and how was that for you when you first came on board? Has it improved? And, and how do you deal with that?

I've learned a number of things, and I've taken counsel from some people that I admire and love and that I sustain. And one of the things that I've learned is to study carefully something that doesn't come natural to me, and that's in Doctrine and Covenants 101, I believe. The idea about being still. And sometimes I thought that being still meant doing nothing, but being still is active and it means allowing for some things to happen so that some better things can take place. So you use the term flak. I'll call it, uh, I'll call it, uh, dialogue. I'll call it some critique. I'll call it whatever you want to call it. One of the things that I've learned is that when there's, in the intranet age and in our current reality, we want to react immediately. That's a tactic in certain parts of communication. But when it comes to you, sometimes the best thing to do is to be still. There's real value in giving a moment for you to reflect and to let the other people that are talking with or maybe at you some time. The other thing that I've learned is that I got some, some quick advice when there were things coming at me. You know, I'm talking to a room of people who know what it's like to put yourself out there. So you receive the same sort of, you have the same sort of reality perhaps in your own life. Someone said to me in a well-meaning way, well, don't take it personally. There is nothing more personal. I take it personally. Because I think the person who's taking issue with me or who's criticizing me or who has something to serve me, they're probably taking it very personally. And that's rough. But if I really want to be a peacemaker, if I really want to follow his counsel, I probably have to take it personally. Not to react or be rude, not to be reactionary or ruthless, but to be real. And to say to myself, that person on the other end of the line, if you will, the proverbial line, is expressing something very personal. And what is it they're trying to say? They love the Lord, and they're expressing something that they're working through. So maybe one of the best things that I can do is not to be weak, not to let things that are untrue go unresolved or unacknowledged, But if I'm going to be a peacemaker, I have to see that it's personal for them. And there's something driving a question. I hope that answers the question. And of course, I've been very clear, and my, my role, my job is to support the leaders of the church and to be a servant of the Lord. That's what we're all doing here. It's what we're trying to do. And I've answered those questions, and I know that they've been answered many times. But the question is, when someone says to you, ah, don't take it personally, what they're probably saying to you is don't let it stop you from doing the work you're doing. I hope that's what I can say to some of you. I wish I could reach out to some of you when there's hate or when there's critique. And if I ever tell you not, don't take it personally, please stop me. Take it personally. But don't let it stop you from your personal calling to help people understand, to help people express their questions, and to have an informed—

Okay, that's it. Just your initial reaction.

He takes his role seriously. He comes across very intelligent, he's very eloquent, he's very thoughtful, he takes his time, he's clearly got relationships with the senior leaders who counsel him and advise him. It's very methodical. He struggles with it, I think, you know, a lot of critique that he gets in this role. It's a very significant role in the church, you know, head of communications, something that's one of the most important jobs in the church, uh, non-ecclesiastical roles for sure. He said he supported the brethren. He didn't answer the question directly. Um, maybe the question could have been put more directly to him, but he didn't reference so much the proclamation to the world other than to say that he supports, uh, the brethren. That's my raw reaction take on that video piece.

Okay. So the, the reaction that's all over the place online. Is— I'm going— I don't even want to quote the person who said this because I'm really frustrated with how many people have taken this answer and taken this, this whole moment to attack Aaron Sherinian for things he did not say. At no point did he say he rejects the proclamation on the family. At no point does he say that he in any way opposes the teachings of the church on anything. Uh, but what frustrates me more than anything is that the people who are attacking him, first of all, are misrepresenting both the question and his answer, and they think they deserve credit for defending the church as they attack the church. Because the attacks on Aaron Sherinian over this are very much attacks on the church, and they're coming from people who pride themselves on being more Orthodox, more righteous, and more sustaining of the brethren than anybody else. And this has to stop. This is not acceptable. So Uh, so I, I, as I went through this, I looked at a lot of the online reactions, and probably the most prominent is coming from a guy who says simply, the church's comms director was asked directly, do you support the family proclamation? He would not answer. Okay, he was not asked directly. Do you support the Family Proclamation? He was not. I mean, you listen to that question. So the question— and let's, let's specifically reiterate what the question was. When you first came on board with the church, there was a lot of online flak. How was that for you when you first came on board? Has it improved? And how do you deal with that? Now you'll notice I've left out the bit about the Family Proclamation because it wasn't a question. He was not asked, 'Do you support the family question?' Scott Gordon said, 'I've gotten a few questions asking whether or not you support the family proclamation.' He says that very clearly as you listen to the question that was asked. That reference to the family proclamation is cited as an example of the kind of online flak that Aaron Sherinian received. The question was not Do you support the Family Proclamation? The question was, how was that for you, all that flak? Has it improved? And how do you deal with it? And there was nothing about Aaron Sherinian's entirely cogent, entirely direct, entirely insightful answer that dodged the question he was asked. Now, if there was a follow-up question, well, do you support the Family Proclamation? Uh, I have not seen it. I, I, there is no record of it. The reality is everybody is looking at this answer as being the answer that is supposedly Aaron Sherinian refusing to endorse the Family Proclamation. He did no such thing. By any objective standard, by any objective standard, uh, he answered the question he was asked. Now, are there people who, uh, are concerned, continue to be concerned that Aaron Sherinian holds views that they don't like? Yes. Uh, are they allowed to have those concerns? Of course. Are they allowed to attack the church for continuing to employ Aaron Sherinian? Well, yes, they are allowed to do that too. What they are not allowed to do is pretend that somehow that's a faithful thing to do, to pretend that that's somehow defending the church. Because you are— Aaron Sheridian was chosen by prophets, seers, and revelators. I don't know if Russell M. Nelson specifically said, hey, I want to hire Aaron Sheridian. But I do know that he approved the hire, and furthermore, that he continues to approve of the hire. Because if Aaron Sherinian were representing the church in any way that was disappointing or not acceptable to prophets, seers, and revelators, he'd be looking for a job. And he's been in this job now for years and has performed this job admirably. And there are no signs that he is in any danger of losing it. So what that means is that when you attack the fact that Aaron Sherinian holds this position and insists that he should not be holding this position, it's unacceptable. You are attacking the church, full stop. There is no nuance there. You are attacking the church, and people who attack the church from the other side of the equation, get excommunicated for doing that. When you start attacking the church because you demand— when you're Kate Kelly and you say the church ought to be ordaining women, you get excommunicated for that. The church is doing this wrong. The church needs to fix something. It doesn't even matter what it is, but when you attack from, from that sort of side, uh, you, you get excommunicated. There are so many people who've been excommunicated because they attack the church. But when you attack the church from this other side, because you don't think the church is faithful enough, or you think the church just isn't rigid enough and is too inclusive and is too kind and is allowing just too much compassion, if you attack from that side, There's silence, and I am breaking that silence. I'm calling that out for what it is. And what it is, the word that we use to describe the people attacking from the other side is apostasy. That when you demand the brethren do something and demand they bend to the will of the mob, that's defined as apostasy. And It doesn't matter what it is you are demanding. You know, if you're demanding, you know, it doesn't matter if you're demanding that we perform same-sex temple sealings, or you're demanding that we, uh, that we, you know, be more rigid and stop allowing, you know, if you're demanding, for instance, that the church overturn its endorsement of the Respect for Marriage Act, which made all of these people really angry when it happened. Uh, you are, you are, you are engaged in the same sort of advocacy and activism against the church that has gotten so many people removed from the church. To be clear also, I am not calling for any disciplinary action for anyone. I am not demanding the church do anything. What I am doing is calling out these people individually and saying to them, you do not get to claim that this kind of advocacy against the church, just because you think it's coming from a faithful position, you do not get to claim that your attacks on the church are defenses of the Church. They are every bit the kind of attacks on the Church that you frequently and loudly decry when they come from people on the other side of your arguments. You do not get to do that and not have people call you on it, not have me call you on it at least. And shame on you, anybody who is listening to this who thinks you can dump on somebody that Prophet Seers and Revelators have chosen to represent the Church and think that somehow you are sustaining those same prophets, seers, and revelators while you do it. So that, that's what's got me exercised. That's why I think we have this conversation. Would you agree with any of that, Ian?

I can, I can see where you're coming from. Um, I, I think, uh, again, it's inside out. We, you're on the inside, I'm on the outside, and we, kind of go to, uh, all angles, all sides of the church. I, I, we usually walk middle line in terms of, uh, you know, where the church is, where the church is doing well, we acknowledge it. If there's areas of an opportunity to improve, we talk about that. Um, I, I think, um, going back to what Aaron was saying, who's clearly incredibly smart, and highly effective communicator. That's why he's got the job. I love his comments around being still, which is an active thing. And he also talks about taking it personally. When people said, I don't mean it personally, he said, well, we'll take it personally. I understand where you're coming from. I can understand why someone's criticism of Aaron would be criticism against the church. The church has got rules and regulations like any organization, how it organizes and manages and, and kind of walks those rules. Um, we see that play out from time to time. Uh, again, Aaron's advice is if someone is saying something about the church, this is what I take from that video, that's, uh, we take it seriously cuz it's serious to them. It's personal to them. This group of people who are attacking Aaron., you know, that they're doing it, uh, because they feel that they are on the right side. Elder Oaks talks about loyal opposition, if you remember that. And, um, he's no Elder Oaks from, uh, my remembrance of that comment. He doesn't support the idea of loyal opposition. And so the church is very clear that once it does something and says something, that it expects the membership to, you know, get in line. And I can understand and I can get that. Uh, so, you know, the proc— by the way, thank you for helping me understand that and, and see that the question, or rather the point about the proclamation to the world was not a question. It, I, Having listened to you now, I see that as an example of the questions that were being asked online. It wasn't being asked, I agree with you, uh, Aaron, directly, but it was an example that, um, the interviewer gave as an example of what was being asked online. So I appreciate that clarification and, you know, his right to support the, the brethren. I don't know if there's any other follow-up question in regards to that. Had there been, of course, then I think it's important to disclose that, or the church to disclose that. I can, from your point of view, from these people who have this loyal opposition in the church, who claim to be, you know, more in tune with the prophet, more orthodox, et cetera. We both know that it doesn't work like that. You know, Aaron has been called a corner of the church and called a god. By ecclesiastical leaders. That's his role. They support him. And it's a very difficult job. I, I could never do something like that. I, I, it's probably the hardest job in the church actually. And you're going to get flak from all angles. And the church is walking a fine line. You know, this isn't, this reaction from those hardcore, let's call them loyal opposition members, is representative of a group of people in the church that seem to know better maybe than the brethren, and they speak up and they speak out, and the church has got to manage and control that in some way. And of course, the other side of the spectrum has got the more liberal, less orthodox, more open-minded members of the church. And of course, the world too, Gillibrand. The proclamation is proclamation of the world. It's a statement to the world. So I understand where you're coming from. I can understand your strength of feeling and, you know, and of course it's important to see that perspective and I can see where you're coming from on that. So yeah, they're my, they're my thoughts.

Well, when we talk about the loyal opposition, I was careful not to use the words liberal or conservative, because the minute you do that, it suddenly becomes political, suddenly becomes that this is left-wing, right-wing, Republican, Democrat. Um, and, and that's not what this is about in my estimation, uh, because I think once you start doing that, uh, you start to give allowances, at least in, in church culture, There are so many more Republicans, conservatives, politically speaking, but also if you want to apply those terms to church doctrine, uh, the vast majority of members could be described as conservative, uh, and, and far fewer would be described as liberal or progressive. And I'm, I'm constantly accused of being a progmo, a progressive Mormon, which is really kind of bizarre to me, uh, only because I still consider myself every bit the conservative I was when I was working for Republican politicians in the Republican Party. I, I, I still believe in limited government and I still believe in fiscal responsibility and I still believe in all of the things that the Republican Party has jettisoned, uh, in, in order to support Donald Trump. This is not about any of that and it's certainly not about Donald Trump. It's about the idea that when you're a loyal opposition, but you're coming from it from a conservative angle, you can delude yourself into thinking that you're not opposing the church. You can delude yourself into thinking that steadying the ark from the right side is all right, but steadying the ark from the left side, if you're Kate Kelly demanding that we ordain women, that's steadying the ark from the left side. But again, even that, it's like, it's so weird to put a political label on that because we're not talking about politics, we're talking about church doctrine. And I don't think church doctrine overlaps with politics nearly as much as most church members now seem to think or believe. Uh, so, uh, but regardless, okay, fine. So you have all of these people that just sit there and scream On a daily basis, they go online and they scream at people like me because I'm too progressive, I'm too much of a progmo. So even though the fact that I am an active, faithful member of the church, uh, you know, I can give you any bona fides you want. My church membership is not in danger. I am a member of the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square, and if I were some raving apostate, I would no longer be able to be a member of the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square because the Church does not tolerate that sort of thing. But these people see no problem pointing at people in the Church they don't like, people in the Church they disagree with, and saying— and attacking them and trying to get them kicked out of the Church, and at the same time saying that this is a faithful thing to do. That this is the appropriate thing to do. You know, there are members and there are podcasters with a much broader reach than we have who go about contacting people's stake presidents and saying, why haven't you excommunicated so-and-so? And here's things that so-and-so has said online. Uh, you should initiate, um, church discipline proceedings because these people are just too liberal and they're, they're teaching against the, uh, teachings of the church. I'm not even going to tell you who these people attacking Aaron Sherinian are, let alone even imagine trying to go to their bishop or their stake president or anybody with stewardship over them and demand they do anything about this. That's not my stewardship. It's certainly not their stewardship. And anybody that tries to get somebody kicked out of the church or tries to do anything, uh, that would affect somebody's membership in the church is exercising authority outside their stewardship. I'm pretty sure that none of the people who are now calling for Aaron Sherinian's head are his bishop or his stake president or anybody with any sort of stewardship over his membership. And they're certainly not apostles and prophets, who are the ones who have stewardship over whether or not he remains employed and whether or not he has the authority to be the spokesman for the entire church to the media. I mean, that's such— it is so, so— I mean, bizarre doesn't cover it. It's, it's, it's just flummoxing beyond words how people think that somehow someone like Aaron Sherinian is allowed to go rogue. I mean, as they're talking about how he's not following the prophet, I'm thinking, do you think the prophet has a problem with Aaron Sherinian not following him? You think if he did have a problem, he would continue to allow Aaron Sherinian to function in his current role? I saw one guy online, because somebody else was making this argument, and saying, look, the church knows who Aaron Sherinian is. The church have put him in that position. And if you can't accept that, then you're attacking the people who put him in that position. And they said, well, what if they had put a known pedophile in that position? Are you saying I would have to support a known pedophile? And I said, do you honestly believe, first of all, that the church would put a known pedophile in any position of responsibility? And second of all, if they're known, you think they would allow them to continue in that position? How weak and, and out of touch are you claiming that the brethren are? Because that's nonsense. You know, I mean, how How do you think these people can go rogue? I've told this story before, but when I was interviewing for a position as director of governmental relations for the entire church, I talked to Rick Evans. I think that was his name, or Rick Evans is somebody else. Anyway, I talked to the sitting director. He's since passed away, but I've talked to the sitting director who told me the story of the church standing up, uh, for the Utah Compact, which was a very progressive statement about immigration, and how the very following day after the church announced its endorsement for this position on immigration, the Utah Republican Party passed a resolution condemning the Utah Compact. And when members— elected officials were contacted, how do you reconcile that with the fact that your church has come out in favor of the Utah Compact? Their response was, well, the church didn't. This was just the director of governmental relations that did. That didn't come from the prophet. And this director of governmental relations said to me, do they think we go rogue? Do you think the moment we did that, I wouldn't have been fired if I had gone rogue and gone out and endorsed something without the church's approval? Everything the church does institutionally, they do it with the full authority of the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency. Every single thing they do on that level is done with that full authority and with that full knowledge. It reminds me of the whole Tim Ballard episode when Tim Ballard, who, uh, was trading off of, uh, Elder Ballard's name and, and engaged in what we now know were really sexually deviant activities. As he was saying he was rescuing children, he would get women to come work for him and say, all right, well, we're going to go undercover to stop these child traffickers. But if we do that, we have to pretend to be husband and wife. And so the sexual chemistry between us needs to be real. So we need to shower together and we need to make out with each other and we need to do all of these things that will give us the credibility so that when we go undercover with these child traffickers, uh, then, then, uh, then we'll look authentic. Church got wind of this, issued a statement condemning Tim Ballard, condemning his sexual behavior. And, uh, and distancing themselves from the church. And all of Tim Ballard's defenders said, how do they— how could this have happened? No, there's no way the church did this. The prophet didn't do this. This was just the PR department of the church. It's like, do you really think? And, and they said, this is fake. The first thing they said was, this is fake. This didn't really even come from the church. And then it was published in the Deseret News. Hal Boyd The editor of the Deseret News, who I worked for when I wrote editorials for the Deseret News, so one who published it, he wrote an article and he published it. And, and they said, well, no, this is, this is fake. The church couldn't have done this. And I said, Hal Boyd would be fired within a matter of seconds, not minutes, seconds. The moment anybody in the church saw that and said, why is the Deseret News publishing false statements? And pretending they're coming from the church. The moment that had been seen, Hal Boyd would be out on the street. And the idea that, oh, but this is okay, we're the ones following the prophet, defending the prophet, even as we demand the prophet fire a guy we don't like. You don't get to have it both ways. And to conclude this section of my rant, I think back to, um, what Greg Prince talked about with us. When Greg Prince was talking about how, um, when I asked him about individual member reactions to COVID restrictions, the church asked all of its members— the word it used was urged, and the only reason I know that is because so many people who refused to follow the counsel said, urged is not the same thing as commands.

What?

Give me a break, guys. The church is urging you to do something. You're refusing to do it. Fine, refuse to do it, but don't pretend that you're supporting the church while you do that. You can't pretend that that's support when you're rejecting what the church is urging you to do. Anyway, the church urged its members One, to wear masks to church meetings. Two, to get vaccinated. The President of the Church, the prophet, seer, and revelator who holds all the keys, all the priesthood keys, also posted a picture of himself with a mask on his face getting a COVID vaccination shot. I mean, how clear does he have to be that this is something the Church counseled us to do? And so many members who came from the same contingent that's now attacking Brother Cyrinean, so many members said, oh no, this isn't really the prophet, and this isn't really— he's only speaking as a man, it's okay, I can reject this, that doesn't matter. And many members went further than that and said the church is in apostasy because the church has fallen prey to the wicked, uh, secret globalist conspiracy that wants to put nanobots in our veins or whatever the stupid anti-vax conspiracy of the day may be. But all these people who did that consider themselves the most righteous members of the church. And when we talk about this with Greg Prince, he raised the story of talking to Grant McMurray, who was the president of what's now the Community of Christ, and said, talked about when they they announced that they were ordaining women in the Community of Christ, and roughly a third of the members left as a result. And Grant McMurray's response was, if I— if we knew what— which third was going to leave, we would have done this a long time ago. And I don't think there's any question that the people who are most likely to leave en masse In terms of the church, the people who would be most likely to sort of break away and create their own schism are not the people on the left. The people who are on the left who are frustrated with what the church is doing are leaving one at a time. They're not leaving, they're saying, okay, I don't believe in the church anymore. I don't accept the church's authority anymore. I have to leave. The people on the right are saying, we are the most righteous members of the church, we are the true solid believers of the church, and if the church were ever to, heaven forbid, allow for greater inclusion of same-sex relationships— uh, not— I mean, the church today without any change of doctrine, the church today could say, we will take no ecclesiastical action against people who are in a legal same-sex marriage. They wouldn't even have to endorse legal same-sex marriage. And, and, and again, I'm not even saying the church needs to do that or the church has to do that, but if the church were to do that, That would be too much for a huge number of these members. They'd be like, "No way, this is too woke, this is too awful." The church is, you know, the fact that Aaron Sherinian, in a question that references the Family Proclamation, uh, but doesn't directly ask him about his support or interpretation of it, uh, is being vilified to this extent simply because he didn't jump at the chance to say, Oh, and by the way, I really like the Family Proclamation. It just shows you these are the fragile ones. These are the ones that are just ready and eager to break away. Many of the most prominent podcasters, including the one that's leading the charge, including the one that made that statement I read earlier about how he was asked simply whether or not he supports the Family Proclamation, even though he was not asked that. Um, they've said they'll leave the church if the church were to allow for same-sex temple sealings. They would leave the church. And yet somehow I'm the faithless one, or progressive members are faithless, even as we stay in the church and don't make conditions on our membership in the church. Uh, uh, it's this needs just to be called out. I, I, I'm grateful for this platform and grateful for your patience with me and grateful for our listeners' patience as I rant about this. But we need to discuss this. We need to discuss the reality that the attacks on the church are coming from the side of the people who claim to be its greatest defenders. And that needs to be called out. And rejected at every opportunity. So that's, that's where I am on that.

You, uh, this topic is very important to you. You know Aaron Scharanian personally, and when we know people personally and we know their qualities and their attributes and we're seeing, uh, criticism of those people that we love and respect, uh, it, it hits home. And we feel understandably the need to protect and to defend because we know the character in the individual. You know him and he's your friend. And I think it speaks volumes about you to protect the good name of a man or a person. There's an old talk in the church about the value of a good name, right? And so when we good, you know, if we good, we're doing good and we have good character, it's important that we protect and defend the good name and character of good people, and you're doing that. So I think that I commend you for that. My earlier response, I want to say this, was pretty lame, pretty weak, and I want to give a more substantive response to some of your points here. We're not a podcast that goes out and reports members to leaders. We're not interested in that. We don't do that. That's not who we are. Uh, I think that lacks, uh, uh, moral character. We're just not that kind of people. We're not that kind of, uh, podcast. I want to say that, uh, the, um, Aaron is in that position for a reason. He has the qualities and the skills. It's the most difficult job. And, but what I like about him being in that job is that it gives me hope. Someone like that. Who's very skilled, very, uh, thoughtful, and certainly has the support of the First Presidency and the apostles, et cetera. He gives people like me, and I'm sure many others, hope that the church is trying to navigate these issues, is trying to deal with them, has some answers, struggling, uh, with other issues, which is normal. It's normal not to have all the answers. It's normal to wrestle and struggle with issues. It's wrestling with probably the biggest challenge to the organization in its entire history, legal same-sex marriage, trying to be more inclusive with, you know, for LGBTQ individuals. I love your comment about it's likely, more likely for right-wing, again, I don't want to get political here, but maybe that's not the right word, but more orthodox members who are more likely to leave in groups as opposed to individuals who are on the more liberal side. The church has gone through unprecedented changes in its history and will continue to do so as society changes. I can see why there are a lot of issues and challenges regarding the population to the world. It generates perhaps more questions than it answers. And there's some history context of, you know, when and how that came out. You know, the whole family dynamics have changed in the last 30 years. My own personal experience of families growing up was not the orthodox model that the church and other religions presented at the time. But the proclamation, along with other challenges and issues that the church faces, I can't think, based on your inside track of Aaron, Aaron is probably the best person to understand and help the church navigate that from a public face perspective. And the other point I want to make is we've had people on our podcast who believe that Blacks should not have the priesthood. If you look at all the major changes in the church over the history where the church has made the changes, introduced the policy, got some right, got some wrong. You know, I, I, I, I get that it makes mistakes at times, but you still got that core group of people that won't allow the church and doesn't want the church to change at all. In any way. You know, even with some individuals who think that Blacks still even today shouldn't have the priesthood, how can the church progress and move on from that with people like that? Well, it does and it, it tries to, and you've got this group of people who are holding the church back from making progress. So I, I think the church has to, I'm not a member of the church. I can speak, uh, from a different perspective, but the church should move forward and do the right thing across a range of issues and topics. Just do the right thing. You're gonna lose people. You can never please everybody. You just can't. Certainly not on these issues. Certainly not on religion. Eventually, as, as the, uh, church progresses and changes, becomes more inclusive, which is what we want, you're going to lose that group of people anyhow. If it was down to that group of people, we would be living in the Dark Ages, you know, very, very strict, very orthodox, very prescribed, focus on the letter of the law over the spirit of the law. And we know the balance is, you know, what, you know, getting that equilibrium between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. Uh, it's, there's that scripture, Jim Bennett, which you and I remember from since our missions and before. It's not good that a man is commanded in all things. I don't think the Lord intended us to be managed or micromanaged at that, that micro level. I think he puts out these, uh, commandments. Yes, we have, we have to interpret them. We have to follow them. We have to follow the Spirit. Uh, but the details are really down to us. Now, I don't think the church, um, does well when it, it, it micromanages on certain things, but on other things that it's really important, like the vaccine and COVID, where the evidence is clear that, uh, by taking a vaccine and wearing a mask, that the evidence, um, overwhelmingly supports that. It's right and good that the Prophet did that. And of course you've had that reaction from those orthodox members. I, I'm encouraged that the fact that Aaron is in his position, because the church is trying to walk that line and trying to position itself to becoming more inclusive. And I think that's great, but it won't take everyone with it, Jim Bennett, and you know that eventually those people who think that they, you know, the Prophet Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, um, in particular, we should go back to those times strictly across every single issue and topic. Well, you know, the world has moved on. The church has moved on. Excuse me. The, the church is very different now than when it was when Joseph Smith was on the earth. But I think the whole point is to be loving and be inclusive. And yes, maintain standards and values, but you can do that and still be inclusive. You can still have an environment where, you know, LGBT people can go and feel safe and included and loved and be involved. I believe that's going to happen. I believe there'll come a time where callings will be extended to everyone because they've got something to offer. The good, good They're wonderful people and they can do great things, even though the church, um, right now is struggling with this issue about, you know, being gay and being in the church, for example. But I think Aaron is someone like that, uh, is going to help the church move into a better future, a future which, which is more inclusive and kinder, and it's going to have to, time will tell, I guess it will just, um, uh, move on from those, uh, Orthodox people and, uh, shed that skin of those people and become something much more beautiful as it morphs into a different organization over the next 10, 20 years. I think that's inevitable. If you look at the leaders as well in the, in the apostleship, as the older thinking people eventually leave us and the others come through, I think we're going to see those progressive thoughts come through. And that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. So I, yeah, I hope that this last response is a little bit more substantive than the last one because I felt that was a little bit weak on my part. But, Yeah, I, I, I'm encouraged by this. I can see why you feel so strongly and I appreciate that very much. And I think it's right to be able to express your opinion. Not everyone will agree with you or I, and that's okay. But I, I'm, my message is that I, I think Aaron is, is, uh, evidence that the church will continue to change and progress and become much more inclusive. And that gives me hope. And I'm sure many of us as well.

Well, I think that, uh, it gives you hope. It gives many others hope and it terrifies the people who are currently attacking him. And one of the, I mean, one of the things I, I, I'm not quite sure what the appropriate way to approach this is because the people that look to Aaron Shirini and And the fact that he is able to hold that position while at the same time, uh, holding, uh, space for LGBTQ people, um, people who see that as a symbol of hope, uh, I don't want to discourage that necessarily, but I do want to defend Aaron Sherinian personally because I know I know that Aaron Sherinian does not want to be in any way a stumbling block for the church. Aaron loves the church with his whole soul, is devoted to it, uh, took this position at a significant pay cut because he felt it was his responsibility to do it. The church had been pursuing him for a number of years asking him to do this, and he would repeatedly turn them down, and then finally felt like this was something that he ought to do because he loves the church. And a lot of people were sort of frustrated. A lot of people on the left, I guess, or critics of the church would say, oh gosh, yeah, they hired this LGBTQ ally, but then he went radio silent. The church shut him down. And my response to that was, no, the church didn't shut him down at all. Aaron Sherinian knows his client and knows that when you are a PR guy and you become the story, that, that isn't helpful to the person, to the client that you're representing. Aaron Sherinian, the last thing he wants is to be some kind of symbol of any kind of opposition to the church, or even, you know, if you look at it and go, okay, well, he's a symbol of hope because the church hasn't kicked him out. I don't even think he'd be comfortable with that because he would tell you it's not about him. He's not the story. The story is, is, is the— is his client, is the church, is trying to advance the kingdom. If you listen to his actual talk at FAIR, that was his whole purpose. It was not, look at me, I'm Aaron Sherinian, and look at me, I, I hold these views. And isn't that great for where the church is going? It was, hey, let's all be advocates for the Savior. Let's all speak up and represent the gospel in our lives. That's what he wants. Now, so if you want to look at Aaron Sherinian as a symbol of hope, uh, far be it for me to dissuade you. Uh, that's not what Aaron is doing. That's not what the church is doing. Uh, this is not a statement about LGBTQ issues. This isn't a state— if there is a statement, and I think actually this is an important statement, It's that if you think that being an LGBTQ ally is disqualifying to hold a temple recommend, to serve in church employment, and to do anything officially with the church, Aaron Sherinian is a living example that that is not correct, and you need to repent. If you insist that that is a litmus test that the church holds. So I mean, I don't know if Aaron would be comfortable with that, but I think that's the reality, is that it demonstrates the fact that the amount of latitude people have with regard to how they interpret some of these things is much broader than these people are willing to allow for. So anyway, I, I, I, it's very hard for me to separate the public from the private here because the reason why I am so animated about this is that when I hear Aaron Sherinian talking about how personal this was for him, I feel it. I know how personal this was for him. I know the pain that was inflicted on him and on his family. And I mean, the things that were said about his children that are still being said about his children, uh, I mean, just way out of bounds for what's appropriate. Um, I— there's no way you can't have that aimed at you and, and shot at you and not feel it. Uh, I, I know that this is extraordinarily personal to him and hurtful for him, and it breaks my heart that the slings and arrows being thrown at him were friendly fire, came from people who claim to be supporting the Prophet even as they attack the messenger that the Prophet has put in place. To represent the Church. It's— that needs to stop. It needs to stop. We need to raise our voices to say this is not acceptable. I don't care if you like Aaron Sherinian's positions. First of all, you don't know what Aaron Sherinian's positions are. Near as I can tell, Aaron Sherinian has never said anything negative about the Proclamation on the Family. And if someone were to ask me, do I sustain the Proclamation on the Family, My answer would be yes, and then they get angry because the way I understand what that means is very probably very different from those who see the proclamation on the family as a cudgel to beat people, as a shibboleth, as some way to divide members of the church according to their arbitrary standard of orthodoxy. And, but, but Aaron Sherinian has never said anything negative about the proclamation on the family. I'd be astonished if he ever does. So it's just, it's just, you know, it's hard for me to frame this as, okay, well, here are the implications for the church and what Aaron Sherinian means for the church. I feel terrible for my friend. And I feel furious at the people who are, who should also be Aaron Sherinian's friends, who are unwilling, who are, who are unwilling to follow the prophet. And, and I don't know, I, I'm talking in circles at this point, but I just think this is an important conversation to have. I'm grateful, Ian, that you're allowing you know, that you agreed to have this with me. And I'm grateful to our listeners who have heard me ramble on about it. But I just think this is something that we need to discuss and we need to continue to discuss going forward. So I think— Ian, do you have any parting words? We've come up on an hour here. Is there something else that we've missed that we ought to be saying?

Other than I respect you for bringing this up, talking about it. It's very important to you. I respect that. You've got a relationship with Aaron. You're protecting his good name. He's a good man. I, I, I respect that enormously. I think we have, um, you know, covered a lot of the items here, a lot of the topics. So nothing really to add. I, I, I just would only would say, only one thing I would say is that I, from my perspective, What I've learned on this conversation is that, um, the church will continue to, um, change, improve, get better. That's my hope, that's my belief. And I think Aaron's going to be an important part of that going forward. If you can get people like that in those positions who are got a good heart and they're very smart and intelligent, I think the church is making good decisions by putting people like Aaron into those, uh, very serious roles and responsibilities. So that's a good thing. Um, yeah, we have some great people in the church, and, um, they're extraordinarily talented. And I, I hope maybe one day we could be Aaron. Who knows?

Well, who knows? We'll see. Uh, I— well, I— we could talk about that offline. Uh, anyway, uh, thank you all very much. For listening to this. Thank you, Ian, for, for contributing to this. Uh, this is, again, I think this is a very important conversation, and I am just so grateful that there are people who are willing to have this conversation and that there are people who are listening to us as we have this conversation. If you have feedback, please email us at insideoutfeedback@gmail.com. We want to hear from you. We want to include you. In this conversation. We feel, um, I— Ian could correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I think I, I speak for Ian when I say we feel a connection to the people who listen to this podcast. And, uh, we feel like you are our friends and that we know you, and we want to be able to continue this conversation and continue this discussion with you, our friends, as we go forward, and we look forward to inviting you back. We look forward to having you join us again next week in the next episode of Inside Out. So thank you again, Ian.

Thank you, Jim.

All right, end recording.